Abortionist Hodari protest at Wayne State today
Citizens for a Pro-Life Society is planning a protest today of late-term abortionist Alberto Hodari’s scheduled appearance at the behest of Wayne State University’s Medical Students for Choice for an unappetizing “lunchtime seminar”:
Students for Choice anticipated in their email alert the other day, which I posted, learning from Hodari “what it is to deal with protesters….”
Yet when I listed the names of the apprentice abortionists to give them firsthand experience with protesters not just to sate their curiosity but also prepare them for some of the perks of their intended profession, pro-aborts called me immature and a harrasser.
I don’t underestand why pro-aborts call abortionists noble yet consider free publicity a negative.
I anticipate a good report and photos from pro-lifers of today’s Hodari event.
This will be a great learning experience for the fledgling baby killers. Speaking of fledglings, these kids are young enough for Hodari to have been happy to abort them 20 years back. Who knows, maybe he aborted a sibling.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
should we give Jenny Nelson some free publicity too?
or would that be immature?
See, that’s the difference, Hal. Pro-lifers welcome it.
Exactly, Jill. Put my name and number all over whatever you want. People want to call me and debate/discuss their displeasure I will listen…and probably debate with them. But that’s because I am more than able to defend my position. PCer’s are not. They fear opposition. They fear truth. Because truth is contagious.
I almost went to Wayne State for graduate school. I would so be there with the protesters had I gone to Wayne State. Though, something about the whole situation is just so terrifying. Every time I think about how they invited a late term abortionist to speak, I get this feeling of Satanism deep down inside of me, like there is going to be this enormous aura of evil on Wayne States campus today. It really feels nightmarish to me.
Medical Students for Choice….it’s like, ooh..I want to be a doctor so I could kill babies legally and earn lots of money on the side…never mind the fact that I’m going to disgrace my profession while I’m at it…
Bobby,
any baby yet? Or was it Ray that was due soon. I can’t remember which one of you still had about a month and which one of you were near your due date.
Why would anyone go to school and work that hard with the intention of killing rather than healing?
I know I haven’t done all the work I’ve done to be ostracised by my peers, why would they choose that?
Bobby, great point. There is an aura of evil wherever Hodari goes. I don’t get how people can support him or look up to him like he is some kind of role model. Those med students might as well get used to protestors if they intend to be anything like Hodari.
Hippocratic Oath
I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygeia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfill according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:
To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art – if they desire to learn it – without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but no one else.
I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.
I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.
I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.
Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves.
What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself, holding such things shameful to be spoken about.
If I fulfill this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot.
Now there may be some, but I doubt the intention of med students is to perform abortions when they become doctors.
Jacque, I’ll bet that the female “Medical Students for Choice” have probably had abortions themselves. They are still living the lie that abortion is okay. As for the men? Who knows? Maybe they had girlfriends who aborted their children on demand. To some, abortion is just the greatest. Ever notice how they stand at the PC rallies, looking like a colossal bunch of drips?
I am still interested in people asking Hodari the tough questions. Ask him about the deaths. I’d be curious about what he’d say.
It’s just a new batch of killers.
Jacque, you also made a good point the other day when mentioning that publicizing their names gives future patients a heads up.
Aside from the fact many women wouldn’t want a doctor touching them who has used the same hands to abort (I honestly would have a hard time even shaking hands with an abortionist), there is a psychological difference between pro-life and pro-abort ob/gyns. The latter simply don’t have the same regard for life as the former. It’s impossible.
Pro-abort women may cheerlead around pro-abort ob/gyns, but when it someday comes to caring for them and their preborn baby, particularly in a high risk situation, I can’t imagine them choosing one.
Heather,
Just because someone is in a club that is a Pro-choice club. Does NOT mean they’ve had abortions themselves. I am pro-choice but I would never have an abortion.
JM said, “I doubt the intention of med students is to perform abortions when they become doctors.”
Why not?
I am still interested in people asking Hodari the tough questions. Ask him about the deaths. I’d be curious about what he’d say.
Posted by: JM at November 9, 2007 9:31 AM************************ JM, me too.
Jill,
I just don’t thats all. Like I said SOME might go to med school for the intention of performing abortions. But i highly doubt that is the intention of all.
Hey JM. Thanks for asking. Yeah, it’s us that’s supposed to have the baby soon (she was due yesterday!) but nothing yet. It should be an exciting weekend of attempting to induce labor (mwahahaha!). God love you, JM.
Bobby,
It will be an exciting weekend I’m sure! :) I am excited for this weekend too. My boyfriend, who I haven’t seen in a month, is coming to Arizona TODAY and we will be driving back to MN starting on sunday.
Jill, I feel the same way. If I knew that a doctor performed abortions, I wouldn’t ever want him to touch me.
Jill: “Pro-abort women may cheerlead around pro-abort ob/gyns, but when it someday comes to caring for them and their preborn baby, particularly in a high risk situation, I can’t imagine them choosing one.”
We did, and even in a high risk situation. The skill and compassion of our ob/gyn during my wife’s first delivery was very comforting
If you don’t see abortion as evil, it’s not hard to have a pro-choice doctor touch you and even shake his/her hand.
“My boyfriend, who I haven’t seen in a month, is coming to Arizona TODAY and we will be driving back to MN starting on sunday.”
Oh great, I’m glad to hear that. Driving to MN… where are you coming from?
Question:
Do uberly Christian doctors have issue swearing loyalty to pagan gods when they practice medicine?
JM,
Yahoooooooo! There’s no place like home, There’s no place like home….
I am pro-choice but I would never have an abortion.
Why not?
Coming from Phoenix AZ….. its going to be a loooong drive
“I am pro-choice but I would never have an abortion.
Why not?”
Because its not the right choice for me.
Oh, so you ARE driving from AZ… Man, thats gonna be crazy. Road trips are fun though. How many hours is that going to be?
This part of the current Hippocratic oath has been taken out:
“I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.”
It’s basic euthanasia and abortion. No wonder we have doctors that have skewed from the original intent of their profession.
“I am pro-choice but I would never have an abortion.
Why not?”
Because its not the right choice for me.
Posted by: JM at November 9, 2007 9:58 AM
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JM…I’m curious…why is abortion not the right choice for you?
It should be an exciting weekend of attempting to induce labor (mwahahaha!)
Have fun, cause for 6 weeks following the labor they’ll be no such attempts. :)
That reminds me- a few years ago my boyfriend and I were reading up about NFP. The brochure said, “Most couples find that the periods of temporary abstinence enhance their sex lives.”
I looked at him and said, “Temporary Abstinence? We call that “dating“!
That being said, enjoy your Indian food and sex.
“Oh, so you ARE driving from AZ… Man, thats gonna be crazy. Road trips are fun though. How many hours is that going to be?”
Like 27 hours!! yuk!
“JM…I’m curious…why is abortion not the right choice for you?”
Well I have parents who would help support me if I became pregnant. Not to mention by boyfirends parents would be supportive too. I also feel like I would regret it later in my life.
“Have fun, cause for 6 weeks following the labor they’ll be no such attempts. :)”
I know! Our last hurrah…
Jill,
Lauren wrote an excellent post over a year and a half ago called “Betrayed by my OB/GYN.” The same doctor that delivered her very premature, very sick Holden was that guest speaker at Planned Parenthood.
Here’s her post.
Well I have parents who would help support me if I became pregnant. Not to mention by boyfirends parents would be supportive too. I also feel like I would regret it later in my life.
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Hmmm….you’re ok with abortion for others but not for yourself because you might regret it later in life.
What about those ‘other’ women that choose abortion, don’t you think they would regret it also?
Well I have parents who would help support me if I became pregnant. Not to mention by boyfirends parents would be supportive too. I also feel like I would regret it later in my life.
See, this is where our approaches differ, JM. Instead of supporting the choice to abort for those that aren’t so blessed with support (parents), what about giving them support so they have the same option not to abort as you do? What about the regret they could feel being pressured by circumstances into a choice that they would not have made had they been as fortunate as you are? Let’s correct that- not act like the legal option to do something they might not want to do is somehow compassionate and helpful to them.
You wouldn’t abort because you’ve got it better than other women. Instead of supporting the choice for other women to abort because of their misfortunes, why not join the pro-lifers in correcting this inequity?
Everyone should have the options you have.
Seriously, you and Jennifer and little Bambina are in my daily prayers. I’m praying for a safe, easy delivery and a quick return home.
Okay Jacqueline, How do you suggest we support those who are not as fortunate as me? Because last i checked most conservatives didn’t necessary agree with things like WIC and Food stamps.
I can help support as best I can.
JM,
There are a lot of groups that help support these women after the birth..Project Gabriel is one.
If the woman chooses adoption, there are several groups, too.
It’s win-win situation for both the Mother and the child.
PS…”I can help support as best I can”…that’s all we can do…gosh..you’re sounding like a pro-lifer…
Since we are talking about abortionists in training, I just read an article about the local mill from 2004. The article stated that 4 residents had completed their training in medical and surgical abortions there the previous spring and that 2 more were going to start that fall. They are part of the Abortion Access Project. Can someone tell me if this is what typically goes on? Do most clinics train this many residents in abortions or is it something rare? Thanks
Okay Jacqueline, How do you suggest we support those who are not as fortunate as me?
Even though this is on the internet, I still hear your tone. There are countless ways to help, but just saying, “Abortion is not for me. It’s for those poor, lonely, abandoned women. Let them regret it,” isn’t one of them.
Ways to help: Project Gabriel provides emotional support to pregnant women (and beyond). CPC’s offer help with practical needs (diapers, maternity clothes, etc).
Because last i checked most conservatives didn’t necessary agree with things like WIC and Food stamps.
You’re wrong. I, for one, love WIC. Giving women and children nutrious foods to prevent malnutrition and developmental problems is a wonderful program.
If you’re just trying to bask conservatives, attempting to bash our lack of support for pregnant women is going to fail. It was the democrats that opposed government-funded prenatal care under SCHIP. Beyond that, it’s the pro-life movement that supports pregnant and parenting women. I don’t see NARAL opening up a maternity home. And you’re flippant attitude about, “How exactly are we supposed to help?” is essentially conceding “Screw the poor women!” and demonstrating how abortion exploits the vulnerable.
I can help support as best I can.
Great! I look forward to hearing about what you do.
I’m be overjoyed to see a pro-choice person do ANYTHING, please ANYTHING to help women if they choose something other than abortion.
They leave all the support up to us, while simulatenously trying to shut us down.
Lauren,
I found this line very interesting.
“She went on to say that she was infuriated at the number of nurses and technicians who will not perform “medical abortions”.
from the link Posted by: Jacqueline at November 9, 2007 10:05 AM
………………………………………………………
Why is it infuriating that other people get to refuse to do something that violates their conscience?
She denies babies their right to live and seems to want to deny adults their right to follow their conscience.
It was the democrats that opposed government-funded prenatal care under SCHIP.
Ha! What a lie. Democrats fully support prenatal care for pregnant women under SCHIP. It’s the pro-lifers who don’t want care for pregnant women, and even tried to amend the bill so it would only cover “unborn children,” not the women carrying them.
More on SCHIP prental care:
The Senate bill, as passed, leaves the current situation intact: It does not command the “unborn child” language, but it does permit [prenatal care] as a state option. The language in the House-passed bill, meanwhile, gives states the option to cover “pregnant women” (the status quo in the law) but is silent on the unborn.
There are a lot of PCer’s that would not personally have an abortion. I actually know quite a few (myself included).
“Seriously, you and Jennifer and little Bambina are in my daily prayers. I’m praying for a safe, easy delivery and a quick return home.”
Thank you so much. We greatly appreciate it.
The Senate bill, as passed, leaves the current situation intact: It does not command the “unborn child” language, but it does permit [prenatal care] as a state option. The language in the House-passed bill, meanwhile, gives states the option to cover “pregnant women” (the status quo in the law) but is silent on the unborn.
Whatever! If the terminology didn’t advance their agenda, they’d throw pregnant women under the bus. Had it been between “care for unborn children” and no care at all, no care is what they’d have chosen. They are terrified that the unborn ever be acknowledged.
Beyond that, it’s a CHILDREN’s health insurance bill, not women’s health insurance. The care would be for the unborn children, which is the only way for it to sensible to attached to the bill. But, God forbid, anyone admit that there is a child in there!
There are a lot of PCer’s that would not personally have an abortion. I actually know quite a few (myself included).
Why not?
“Why not?”
Jacqueline, I think I might be able to help clear this up, especially after my discussion with Enigma the other day. Obviously, you know my view, but I think I can explain where midnite is coming from. One thing that I really got from Enigma was that bodily autonomy is a right that cannot be violated no matter what. So the RIGHT to bodily autonomy trumps the right to life of the fetus. Having said that, though, it seems that midnite as well as the friends she mentioned would place charity above that right. So while rights come first (and so she respects those rights of all other individuals), she personally places charity above those rights. But she doesn’t want to force charity on others. So I think if you come to the table with her assumption that yes, there is such a right to bodily autonomy which is THE highest right, then I can see her conclusion following logically from her premise, but of course, I don’t agree with her premise. Does that make sense (both Jacque and midnite)?
Ha! What a lie. Democrats fully support prenatal care for pregnant women under SCHIP. It’s the pro-lifers who don’t want care for pregnant women, and even tried to amend the bill so it would only cover “unborn children,” not the women carrying them.
Posted by: tp at November 9, 2007 11:05 AM
Now THAT is a lie! Republicans tried to ADD unborn children, not take pregnant women out of the bill. It was important that the language be coded into the law to that future administrations could not deny healthcare to the unborn. The DEMOCRATS wouldn’t allow it. So if a poor woman wants to save her baby she’s, in effect, screwed. Get your facts straight.
Jacqueline:
I believe I’ve explained this to you before, & I am speaking for myself, not others.
I am personally pro-life, I am politically pro-choice. I would not have an abortion if I became pregnant tomorrow. The only way I would personally have one is if (1)I was raped or (2)my life was in danger (i.e. I would die as a result of the pregnancy).
Now then with that said. I do not believe that I (or anyone else for that matter) has the absolute right to tell another human being what he/she can or can not do with their own body. I am not God (or Allah, or Buddha, or whomever), I am not the moral police, and what I think is right for me, may not be the best choice for another person in the same situation.
I also understand the whole adoption scenario you’re going to ask me about. But adoption is a solution to an unwanted child not an unwanted pregnancy.
Not to mention, the foster care system in this country is shot to hell and back. Some women may regret their abortion, while others believe it is the best choice they ever made. It depends on the person.
I support ALL choices women make, and I support of a woman who chooses to give birth, one who chooses to put their child up for adoption, or one who chooses to abort. There is no one singular answer or choice, and I support a woman through whatever she chooses as best for her body, her mind, her family, or herself.
If a woman decides to have her child, I want to be able to show her programs and agencies that can help her through the pregnancy and after the child is born. I want to be able to support a woman who chooses abortion or adoption. I want comprehensive sex education instead of this abstinence bull they’re teaching in schools (that doesn’t work, and there is research to back up the claim that it doesn’t work).
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Any of that make sense to you?
Bobby-
I know that argument. I’m just pointing out the reoccuring theme of:
“Abortion isn’t good enough for me, but it should be around for all those lower class women.”
and
“I’m personally opposed to abortion, but support it for others.”
In both cases, the rationale is enough to condemn legal abortion. First off, women deserves better and secondly, the reasons why women personally oppose abortion are because it kills a baby, and that’s reason enough to oppose it for all.
Bobby:
That is a perfect way to describe my feelins on abortions.
::tacklehug::
You so deserve one!!
Any of that make sense to you?
It doesn’t, because it still doesn’t explain why you wouldn’t abort.
“That is a perfect way to describe my feelins on abortions.”
Well, I do try and make sure that I really understand where it is that we disagree, so I’m glad that I can articulate it.
Midnite, I do understand it but it makes even less sense to me than a true PC who would themselves get an abortion. (I hate the internet because no feeling can be expressed, but I really don’t mean that rudely.) I just don’t see how you can see it’s wrong personally but then think it’s okay for someone else.
“It doesn’t, because it still doesn’t explain why you wouldn’t abort.”
Again, I’m totally on your side Jacque, but midnite does not believe abortion is intrinsically evil like we do. I actually liken it to the just-war doctrine. There are certain cases that justify war, just like (according to the PC view) there are certain cases that justify abortion. Again, I think there are cases of the former but not the latter. I think that is what we want to argue to midnite; that in fact, there are no such cases.
But actually, midnite, let me ask you this. While right now you are of the mindset that you would never get an abortion (except in the two cases you mentioned), if you do get pregnant, you could possibly change your mind and have an abortion, and you would have every right to do so, and it would not be wrong. That probably won’t happen, but it COULD. Would you agree with that?
Jacqueline:
I explained this in the above post. Let me try to make this more clear for you. The only way I would personally have one is if (1)I was raped or (2)my life was in danger (i.e. I would die as a result of the pregnancy).
Other than those two scenarios, I would not have an abortion. My reasons are different than others (I assume). There is a chance I might not be able to have children (biologically). If I did “accidentally” get pregnant, tonight, tomorrow, next week, whenever; I would keep my child. B/c that might be the only shot I have at experiencing motherhood.
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Also, I support choice, not necessarily abortions. I don’t like them. I want the numbers to come down dramatically, but until we as a society (& country) can choose to help women who are in a crisis and need help with their pregnancy, the rates are not going to go down.
Abstinence only education is NOT helping either. We need comprehensive sex education in the schools across America. This would also bring down the numbers.
Oh Did I forget that we need a 100% effective BC? There are married couples out there who don’t want kids right away, and they have abortions as well my dear.
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As to bodily autonomy. It is a valid argument. If you were dying, and I was the only other person in the world that had the same blood type as you: No one can FORCE me to give you a blood transfusion; even if this means you’ll die as a result.
The same can be applied to a z/e/f. It is taking nutrients away from a human being sometimes with consent, sometimes without consent. They rely solely on the other person for life.
If the woman in question doesn’t consent, she can have an abortion, b/c the z/e/f is infringing on her right to bodily autonomy.
You’re trying to give more rights to the unborn when the living don’t have the same rights. This Country is supposed to give protection and rights equally. And outlawing abortions will give the z/e/f more rights than any other living (adult) human being has or ever had in this Country…
There are certain cases that justify war, just like (according to the PC view) there are certain cases that justify abortion. Again, I think there are cases of the former but not the latter.
Nonetheless, even if abortion were not intrinsically evil, shouldn’t the justifying conditions apply across the board rather that just in her circumstance? By that token, she should be against elective abortions altogether.
But actually, midnite, let me ask you this. While right now you are of the mindset that you would never get an abortion (except in the two cases you mentioned), if you do get pregnant, you could possibly change your mind and have an abortion, and you would have every right to do so, and it would not be wrong. That probably won’t happen, but it COULD. Would you agree with that?
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I dont think I would change my mind, as I mentioned above why.
Kristin: It’s not that I think it is wrong. It’s just something I myself would not want to go through. Make sense?
And no, you didnt sound rude :-)
Jacqueline:
Read up on this case, and you’ll maybe understand the right to bodily autonomy argument: McFall v Shrimp
No one can FORCE me to give you a blood transfusion; even if this means you’ll die as a result.
Posted by Midnite.
But wouldn’t you agree it’s the RIGHT thing to do? I mean when you hold another person’s life in your hands wouldn’t you say it’s RIGHT to do everything you can to save that life? Regardless of any religious belief or non-belief, isn’t that the world we want to live in?
“I do not believe that I (or anyone else for that matter) has the absolute right to tell another human being what he/she can or can not do with their own body.”
It not just their own body, they’re carrying somebody else’s body, which they have no right to kill.
And no, you didnt sound rude :-)
Posted by: midnite678 at November 9, 2007 12:17 PM
Thanks, I always think I sound snippy, but really don’t mean to.
Kristen:
Yes, it might the right thing to do, it might not be. That’s not the argument here. I don’t have to give anyone my organ’s or blood if I don’t want to.
(although, I am a genuinely nice person and I personally would donate an organ/blood to save another person’s life)
But not everyone in this world has the same set of morals or right and wrongs. That’s the problem here. Everyone thinks that their morals are better and more right than another persons.
Yeah, they do. It’s infringing on their bodily autonomy.
Jasper:
There is no point in you and me having this discussion. We can never agree on anything and one of us gets angry. It’s never pretty.
“This Country is supposed to give protection and rights equally. And outlawing abortions will give the z/e/f more rights than any other living (adult) human being has or ever had in this Country…”
No it doesn’t. and Midnite (at the Oasis), please stop using “z/e/f”, this is a unborn baby we’re talking about here.
…it’s a zygote, embryo, or fetus.
As to bodily autonomy. It is a valid argument. If you were dying, and I was the only other person in the world that had the same blood type as you: No one can FORCE me to give you a blood transfusion; even if this means you’ll die as a result.
That’s true. But what would that say about you if you refused? You’d be selfish and evil. I know I wouldn’t refuse.
Moreover, let’s say that I’m not just some stranger- I’m your daughter. Let’s also say that I wouldn’t exist and need your body had you not created me. Do you see how a moral obligation is there? If your actions put me in need of you to survive, without my consent, you’ve chosen by your actions to care for me.
You’re trying to give more rights to the unborn when the living don’t have the same rights.
A. The unborn are living. Every abortion stops a beating heart and kills a life.
B. No, you’re trying to deny rights to the unborn that every born person has: the right to life.
They rely solely on the other person for life.
We should care for the dependent, not kill the dependent. I have a dog that solely depends on me for everything she needs (while I could give her away *shudder*, nonetheless I am her provider). I take her dependence on me an obligation to care for her WELL, not as a rationale to kill her. I say, “You depend on me for everything and can’t help yourself, so here’s the BEST food and treats.” but you’re saying that I could say, “You depend on me for everything and can’t help yourself- so you have no right to live. I’m going to cut your into pieces with forceps.”
If the woman in question doesn’t consent, she can have an abortion, b/c the z/e/f is infringing on her right to bodily autonomy.
And cutting off the unborn baby’s arms and legs isn’t infringing or her bodily autonomy? There are two bodies in this scenario: mother and child. You’re saying that women have the unique right to kill another person, a right no one else has. For equality sake, unborn children must have a right to live.
We need comprehensive sex education in the schools across America. This would also bring down the numbers.
Planned Parenthood has been doing that forever, and yet things get worse and worse.
Oh Did I forget that we need a 100% effective BC?
Like we need a hole in the head.
There are married couples out there who don’t want kids right away, and they have abortions as well my dear.
Only 12%
Also, I support choice, not necessarily abortions. I don’t like them
Why not?
Pls excuse the pro-abort/PC language….
they use ” zygote, embryo, or fetus” to de-humanize the baby in the womb so it’s easier to accept the act of killing the baby. Easier on the conscience, too!
Previously, it was “blob of cells/ tissue”.
Except, you know, it’s MEDICAL TERMINOLOGY.
You guys can be absurdly ignorant when you want to be.
Oh Did I forget that we need a 100% effective BC?
Like we need a hole in the head.
So, if there was 100% effective birth control, that would be a bad thing????
Well, it may be a Z/E/F, but doctors do say “baby.”…………
So, if there was 100% effective birth control, that would be a bad thing????
Would be for me. I wouldn’t be here.
Yes doctors say “baby” but an embryo, zygote &/or fetus is the correct “medical” terminology. Sorry.
And cutting off the unborn baby’s arms and legs isn’t infringing or her bodily autonomy? There are two bodies in this scenario: mother and child. You’re saying that women have the unique right to kill another person, a right no one else has. For equality sake, unborn children must have a right to live.
Ah, this is where you are wrong my dear. Anyone can kill another person. You will probably be punished for it, but sometimes not.
In a “Necessity” Killing: A person kills another person for the “greater good” or to prevent a greater harm.
In a “Self Defense” Killing: You are protecting your life from death or serious bodily injury. You the right to protect your body.
Hmmm…I’ve only been here a short time but I’m noticing a pattern here about PC/ pro-aborts.
It’s always “my” choice, “my” body, “my” womb, “my” uterus, “my” life…etc., etc..
I may be wrong but doesn’t that sound a bit SELFISH?
Abortion is not self-defense. Billions of women for thousands of years have had babies, often several times.
While pregnancy can be dangerous, the mere risk to the mother’s body doesn’t justify the absolute intentional death of the baby.
Both lives are of equal value.
I may have the right to protect my body but I have the duty to protect my baby.
I never said Abortion was self defense. You said no other person had the right to kill another and I gave you two examples where people have the right to kill another human being.
And RSD, I dont know who you are, but first I am not a “pro abort” and second, I am one of the least selfish people you’ll ever meet. So dont stereotype me, and I’ll extend you the same courtesy.
Midnight,
“I am not a “pro abort”…but you support abortion…it’s either you support it or you are against it.
Which one are you?
PS..I was not referring to you per se..It was just my observation from ALL the PC/Pro-abort that post here..
“I have the duty to protect my baby.”
———————————-
I believe that would be the Natural Instinct of a Mother…be it human or otherwise.
So, if there was 100% effective birth control, that would be a bad thing????
Would be for me. I wouldn’t be here.
who’s being selfish now?
Hi midnite.
“As to bodily autonomy. It is a valid argument. If you were dying, and I was the only other person in the world that had the same blood type as you: No one can FORCE me to give you a blood transfusion; even if this means you’ll die as a result.”
This is not an analogous situation to abortion, though. In your situation, the person dies because of the lack of blood (or however they would die). In an abortion, the person dies because some one directly went in and killed him. In your situation, you did not aid in that person’s death; you just didn’t act. In an abortion, you willfully seek out and directly kill someone. In fact, you directly kill an INNOCENT person, as you do admit the fetus is a human person. So I don’t see the blood transfusion case as being the comparable to abortion. The means to entirely different.
Hal,
You call Abortion, Birth Control?
While I am glad to know that there are PC women out there who would never have an abortion…it also makes me wonder why? WHY is abortion not the right choice for you and yet it would be for anyone else? Now, granted…I do have wonderful support from the best family I could ever ask for. But when I initially found out that I was pregnant..I assumed it would not be acceptable and I would be kicked out so to speak of my family’s lives. Which I’m sure is a common perception of many unwed, young mothers. My friend even tried to convince me my family would not accept it, as we are devout Catholics. So…what did I do when I thought that I would have NO support? I went out and found some. Because I knew that there were many people out there like me who needed help in those kind of situations. And NOT the kind of help that contributed to ending my child’s life. I went to my church..to the woman who was the head of our high school confirmation classes. She got me in touch with many WONDERFUL organizations who were very willing to help me in any way that I needed. Even after I told my family and moved back home, many of these same women who I had first made contact with kept calling me and making sure I had everything I needed for my baby. Even sent me gift cards and such to babies r us and other places. I think, that until we start eductating women about ALL their options..not just the suppposed “quick-fix” kind of option..then the abortion epidemic will continue to go on. And that is all that we as Pro-Lifer’s are trying to do. Trying to contribute to the protection of ALL human life, and provide support to women in a very important time in their lives.
Elizabeth I agree with you to a degree.
Women NEED to know that there are other options available, but unfortunately many do not know where to turn for help. Abortion should not be a “quick fix” to a problem. It (in my opinion) should be the last option after they’ve explored the others.
But not everyone can find the organizations to help them like you did.
who’s being selfish now?
I WANT TO LIVE! If that makes me selfish, I’m selfish.
But I’m sure if someone went at your with the instruments used to kill your babies, you’d be declaring your desire to live, too.
So if women should get all of the information they need about other options and organizations to help them keep their babies, wouldn’t it make the most sense for PP or abortion mills to have ALL of the information handy and ready for these women at their clinic???
Wouldn’t it make sense to have a counseler that sits down with every woman and gives information so they know there are support networks out there for them??
Wouldn’t it make sense that with all of the millions of dollars of profits that PP makes they could take that money and open some pregnancy crisis centers??
With the big advertising budgets they have to attract young women, they could certainly add information to their marketing campaigns that they support the “choice” to continue pregnancies and will support women’s decision to do that with pre-natal care.
Ah, this is where you are wrong my dear. Anyone can kill another person. You will probably be punished for it, but sometimes not.
You’re saying for a person (mother) to kill another (her baby) is a right, otherwise the babies have more rights than any other type of human.
I’m explaining that the right to abortion gives mothers the right to kill, a right no other humans have.
I think why some women can be pro choice and still say they would never get an abortion is because that everyone has their own morals and values, and for some people these morals and values mean they do NOT want to have an abortion.
The reason (as I see it) that they can still be pro choice is because they can see that they have no right to impose morals and values onto another person.
It seems simple to me.
Jodes-
Morals aren’t subjective. If something is immoral, it’s immoral for everyone. So saying, “I love babies. I’d never kill my baby. But to each his own.” makes no sense. Killing is wrong no matter who does it.
Hey Jacquie, did you get to see my fat cat? :D (Sorry to interrupt your conversation, but I know we’re all pro-pet here…)
:D
Obviously, morals are subjective, or else everyone would agree on all the issues all the time.
I did! Omgosh! Soo cute. But I’ve already seen your babies on Facebook so I’d have felt like a cheater commenting. :)
Obviously, morals are subjective, or else everyone would agree on all the issues all the time.
No. Someone is right and someone is wrong.
If I say rape is perfectly moral and you say it’s immoral, one of us has to be right and the other has to be wrong. Our disagreement has no bearing on morality.
Furthermore, if I say “Rape is moral for me, just immoral for you” may I go out and rape? How about theft? How about dismembering a baby while he sleeps in his mother’s womb?
If abortion is wrong- it’s wrong. Situations do not change that. Opinions do not change that.
“Obviously, morals are subjective, or else everyone would agree on all the issues all the time.”
So it’s okay for me rape someone? Because not everyone can not agree on something, this makes it subjective? There is an organization called the Flat Earth Society. They believe the earth is flat. So since not everyone agrees on this issue, it must be the case that whether or not the earth is flat is subjective? Total consensus is irrelevant.
Hey Jacque, great minds think alike!
The reason (as I see it) that they can still be pro choice is because they can see that they have no right to impose morals and values onto another person.
It seems simple to me.
Posted by: Jodes at November 9, 2007 4:15 PM
And to me that just shows simplicity of thought. Jacque and Bobby are correct, the current views on morality have no bearing on what is truly moral or not.
Pro-abort women may cheerlead around pro-abort ob/gyns, but when it someday comes to caring for them and their preborn baby, particularly in a high risk situation, I can’t imagine them choosing one.
I’ve seen enough of the lawsuits filed by women who made the mistake of trusting their obstetric care to aboritonists. When abortion advocates start screaching about childbirth mortality, they ought to start with cleaning up the profession and getting the abortionists out of it.
Face it, anybody who comes out of medical school with a “Life, death, whatever. As long as you pay me, sign here” attitude is hardly trustworthy. As too many women have learned to their great loss — either of wanted babies these guys let die with their quackery, or of their own lives.
Midnite, you said, “I do not believe that I (or anyone else for that matter) has the absolute right to tell another human being what he/she can or can not do with their own body.”
But abortion is entirely about the woman deciding what to do with somebody else’s body. She is deciding to have that body pulled into little pieces and sent to the pathology lab as so much medical waste. Yet, on the grounds that “nobody has a right to decide what happens to another person’s body” you’re defending people’s right to do that to other people’s bodies. It’s a contradiction on its face! It’s like claming that the reason you support the KKK is that you think nobody has the right to discriminate against other people on the basis of race.
That’s bewildering.
“I am pro-choice but I would never have an abortion.
Why not?”
Because its not the right choice for me.
Posted by: JM at November 9, 2007 9:58 AM
WHY NOT?
JM,
There are a lot of groups that help support these women after the birth..Project Gabriel is one.
If the woman chooses adoption, there are several groups, too.
It’s win-win situation for both the Mother and the child.
PS…”I can help support as best I can”…that’s all we can do…gosh..you’re sounding like a pro-lifer…
Posted by: RSD at November 9, 2007 10:23 ……………………………
Project Gabriel provides a link to government welfare services and used baby items. Big whoop!Why not put those nuns to work and provide free day care? How about job training, school tuition, affordable housing? Oh that’s right, that’s left up to the government.
The Senate bill, as passed, leaves the current situation intact: It does not command the “unborn child” language, but it does permit [prenatal care] as a state option. The language in the House-passed bill, meanwhile, gives states the option to cover “pregnant women” (the status quo in the law) but is silent on the unborn.
Whatever! If the terminology didn’t advance their agenda, they’d throw pregnant women under the bus. Had it been between “care for unborn children” and no care at all, no care is what they’d have chosen. They are terrified that the unborn ever be acknowledged.
Beyond that, it’s a CHILDREN’s health insurance bill, not women’s health insurance. The care would be for the unborn children, which is the only way for it to sensible to attached to the bill. But, God forbid, anyone admit that there is a child in there!
Posted by: Jacqueline at November 9, 2007 11:38 AM
…………………………………
For crying out loud! How can you care for the health of a conceptus without caring for the health of the woman pregnant? You can’t. No woman, no child. Jeesh! By not providing care for pregnant women, you exhibit your true lack of concern for the ‘unborn’.
Well, it may be a Z/E/F, but doctors do say “baby.”…………
Posted by: heather at November 9, 2007 12:49 PM
………………………….
That really depends Heather. My last pregnancy was at age 44. High risk. My doctor never referred to the embryo or fetus as a baby. We were both well aware that the chances of there ever being a baby was not the best. The fetus stopped developing at 12 weeks. I attempted to spontaneously abort at 14 weeks. An abortion procedure was implimented to save my life. And yes, it did look like a blob of tissue both on the ultrasounds and in person.
Jodes-
Morals aren’t subjective. If something is immoral, it’s immoral for everyone. So saying, “I love babies. I’d never kill my baby. But to each his own.” makes no sense. Killing is wrong no matter who does it.
Posted by: Jacqueline at November 9, 2007 4:27 PM
………………………..
Bull. It’s only ‘immoral’ to those obsessed with such. If I join a military organization it’s perfectly okey dokey to kill anyone who’s life is deemed of no value. When it comes to a ‘life’ residing inside my body, be it human or not, I have every right to evict it. Not even leaving a window open is an invitation for an unwanted ‘life’ to move in.
So, if there was 100% effective birth control, that would be a bad thing????
Would be for me. I wouldn’t be here.
Posted by: Jacqueline at November 9, 2007 12:53 PM
………………………….
I’m sorry that you were unwanted. It explains a lot.
Hmmm…I’ve only been here a short time but I’m noticing a pattern here about PC/ pro-aborts.
It’s always “my” choice, “my” body, “my” womb, “my” uterus, “my” life…etc., etc..
I may be wrong but doesn’t that sound a bit SELFISH?
Posted by: RSD at November 9, 2007 12:58 PM
…………………………….
Everything that everyone does, they do for selfish reasons.
Hi midnite.
“As to bodily autonomy. It is a valid argument. If you were dying, and I was the only other person in the world that had the same blood type as you: No one can FORCE me to give you a blood transfusion; even if this means you’ll die as a result.”
This is not an analogous situation to abortion, though. In your situation, the person dies because of the lack of blood (or however they would die). In an abortion, the person dies because some one directly went in and killed him. In your situation, you did not aid in that person’s death; you just didn’t act. In an abortion, you willfully seek out and directly kill someone. In fact, you directly kill an INNOCENT person, as you do admit the fetus is a human person. So I don’t see the blood transfusion case as being the comparable to abortion. The means to entirely different.
Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 9, 2007 1:19 PM
…………………………..
Actually Bobby, the conceptus dies because it is incapable of sustaining life without it’s host.
Hi Sally.
“Actually Bobby, the conceptus dies because it is incapable of sustaining life without it’s host.”
I’m not sure I follow. I was talking about an abortion. 90% of abortions are suction aspiration which tears the fetus apart. I mean, I agree that if one could get the fetus outside of the body without tearing it apart then, yes, it dies because it can’t sustain life without the host, but it is in pieces before it gets out.
who’s being selfish now?
I WANT TO LIVE! If that makes me selfish, I’m selfish.
But I’m sure if someone went at your with the instruments used to kill your babies, you’d be declaring your desire to live, too.
Posted by: Jacqueline at November 9, 2007 2:30 PM
………………………
Unless that person was treatening to blugeon me with a vacuum device, I cannot imagine feeling my life threatened by one nor the need to declare a desire to live. Jeesh!
So if women should get all of the information they need about other options and organizations to help them keep their babies, wouldn’t it make the most sense for PP or abortion mills to have ALL of the information handy and ready for these women at their clinic???
Wouldn’t it make sense to have a counseler that sits down with every woman and gives information so they know there are support networks out there for them??
Wouldn’t it make sense that with all of the millions of dollars of profits that PP makes they could take that money and open some pregnancy crisis centers??
With the big advertising budgets they have to attract young women, they could certainly add information to their marketing campaigns that they support the “choice” to continue pregnancies and will support women’s decision to do that with pre-natal care.
Posted by: Sandy at November 9, 2007 2:32 PM
…………………………………….
The only things that PP do not provide for pregnant women are used clothing and equipment. PP points needy pregnant women to the same government agencies as CPCs. PP provides information on all options available to pregnant women as well as health care for non pregnant women and men.
Obviously, morals are subjective, or else everyone would agree on all the issues all the time.”
So it’s okay for me rape someone? Because not everyone can not agree on something, this makes it subjective? There is an organization called the Flat Earth Society. They believe the earth is flat. So since not everyone agrees on this issue, it must be the case that whether or not the earth is flat is subjective? Total consensus is irrelevant.
Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 9, 2007 4:34 PM
……………………….
If you have a desire to rape, there are plenty of places on the planet where it is perfectly acceptable for you to do so.
So it’s okay for me rape someone? Because not everyone can not agree on something, this makes it subjective? There is an organization called the Flat Earth Society. They believe the earth is flat. So since not everyone agrees on this issue, it must be the case that whether or not the earth is flat is subjective? Total consensus is irrelevant.
Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 9, 2007 4:34 PM
………………………..
I remember when the RCC declared the earth round back in the 1980s. Too funny!
“Put my name and number all over whatever you want. People want to call me and debate/discuss their displeasure I will listen…and probably debate with them. But that’s because I am more than able to defend my position. PCer’s are not. They fear opposition. They fear truth. Because truth is contagious.”
Don’t mean to bring it all the way back to the first couple posts, but I took issue with this.
The point of not posting personal information of anyone is so that they will not be harassed, not because of fear of debate or whatever reason you’ve dreamed up. In retrospect, posting a name is not as bad as say, posting a number. If Jill had posted a phone number, I would have been disappointed and probably would have taken more drastic action, because that would have been a clear message for people to call and harrass these medical students.
There are crazy people out there. I for one don’t want to get called and get death threats from some crazy person that I don’t know.
Midnite- I want to thank your for responding to my comment with a rational response. From the other comments on this thread that may have an opposing viewpoint, your’s is a rare one. So I am thankful to see that there are people who are PC that are capable of discussing something without being rude. Anywho, in response to your comment..I understand..but you can look many of these places up simply in the phone book or call 411. I think much of the reason that the women don’t search for these organizations is because they, for lack of a better term “freak out.” I can’t say that I blame them…but if we can offer this kind of information to everyone before they even get in the situation..they would then KNOW. But many people become offended and think we are acting “preachy” when trying to share this information so it makes it challenging for everyone.
On a side note: Jacqueline and Lyssie–you have facebook..how about myspace?? You can’t look me up but I can give you my address on there..Let me know!! I’ve got lots of cute pics of the baby on there too!!
Tokyo Sally: “Bull. It’s only ‘immoral’ to those obsessed with such. If I join a military organization it’s perfectly okey dokey to kill anyone who’s life is deemed of no value.”
No, it’s not. But if somebody trying kill you, it different
Tokyo Sally:” When it comes to a ‘life’ residing inside my body, be it human or not, I have every right to evict it.”
…only in the mind of a monster.
Tokyo Sally: “Bull. It’s only ‘immoral’ to those obsessed with such. If I join a military organization it’s perfectly okey dokey to kill anyone who’s life is deemed of no value.”
No, it’s not. But if somebody trying kill you, it different
Tokyo Sally:” When it comes to a ‘life’ residing inside my body, be it human or not, I have every right to evict it.”
…only in the mind of a monster.
Posted by: jasper at November 9, 2007 9:38 PM
……………..
Jasper the frightened ghost, monsters only exist in the minds of the willing to be frightened. Usually caused from the lack of a feeling of empowerment over their own being. Why don’t you conquer your own inner monsters and quit projecting your fears onto subjects that have no power to harm you?
Back to abortionist Alberto Hodari…
I say let the guy talk if he’s invited. Much of what he’ll say will probably make him look foolish anyway, much like the exceptional pro-choicers on this blog.
And the med students who contributed to this event, well, if they posted their names on a poster they shouldn’t be too shocked to see it sprawled on the internet.
Thanks, Jill!
Sally, I want to be clear on something you posted.
“The fetus stopped developing at 12 weeks. I attempted to spontaneously abort at 14 weeks. An abortion procedure was implimented to save my life. And yes, it did look like a blob of tissue both on the ultrasounds and in person. ”
Am I correct in concluding that the fetus died at 12 weeks since it stopped developing? Or were there still signs of life but it just wasn’t growing.?
The spontaneous abortion attempt: was that a “Wait-and-see-what-your-body-will-do” kind of attempt or something else?
The abortion past 14 weeks: that’s why I’m confused. If it stopped developing, which I’m interpreting as death in utero, then perhaps it wasn’t an abortion in the traditional sense in which the baby was alive during the procedure, but more like the removal of dead tissue.
I’m not looking to get flamed. I sincerely wish to be educated.
“I remember when the RCC declared the earth round back in the 1980s. Too funny!”
Yeah, let me know when you find a source to back that asinine claim up.
Bobby the Kid,
Please ask MK for my email address. I have a math question for you!
Everything that everyone does, they do for selfish reasons.
Posted by: Sally at November 9, 2007 8:01 PM************************************************************************* Really? How about Bethany? She volunteers at a pregnancy crisis center. Is that selfish? A couple of women and I are going to dish out food at a homeless shelter on Thanksgiving. Is that selfish? I helped a friend escape an abusive relationship. Was that selfish? Care to explain yourself?
Why do people give to charity? Why do people stop to help an accident victim? Totally selfish, aren’t they???? Sally, every time you think you have it bad, please realize that there are others out there who have it so much worse. Instead of complaining, why not get off your duff, and help others out? You would be surprised at the good feeling it will give you. It’s better than any amount of money. Stop putting so much emphasis on marathon running and Masters degrees. It isn’t important.
Does anybody know how the Hodari thing went?
Sally,
Jasper the frightened ghost, monsters only exist in the minds of the willing to be frightened. Usually caused from the lack of a feeling of empowerment over their own being. Why don’t you conquer your own inner monsters and quit projecting your fears onto subjects that have no power to harm you?
Tell that to Sharon Tate.
Stop putting so much emphasis on marathon running and Masters degrees. It isn’t important.
Posted by: heather at November 10, 2007 12:19 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No. It’s absolutely vital that Sally pursues Master’s degress and marathons. Success breeds success. There is nothing more satisfying than personal achievement, and it always results in gifts that you can use to enrich the lives of your loved ones.
Laura,
I personally find it more satisfying doing for others than doing for myself. While I do find it satisfying going to school to get my degree and gaining knowledge..I find it equally satisfying caring for my daughter and helping a friend of mine who is also a single mother who is in more of a challenging situation than I am. I put gift packages together for her and her daughter of things that they both need all the time..and I frequently take them out and pay so that they can do something fun once in a while. Putting your fellow humans first is a far more noble task than putting yourself first any day of the week.
I find it equally satisfying caring for my daughter and helping a friend of mine who is also a single mother who is in more of a challenging situation than I am. I put gift packages together for her and her daughter of things that they both need all the time..and I frequently take them out and pay so that they can do something fun once in a while. Putting your fellow humans first is a far more noble task than putting yourself first any day of the week.
Posted by: Elizabeth at November 10, 2007 9:47 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
…And before you could be in a position to help them, you had to work and sacrifice to attain the means.
Hell, if I finished my Master’s and trained for the marathon, I’d make more money to give to my favorite causes and deliver it to them over great distances at a dead run!
Sally’s son is actually the one running marathons, and her daughter is earning a Masters degree. Sally isn’t the one doing these things. She’s bragging about her children. {not that there’s anything wrong with that.]
Let’s not forget the good people of California. You know, the people who gave out all kinds of assistance to the victims of the tragic fire. They gave their money and their time. How selfish can you get?
Is Sally being treated for PTSD?
Her life is filled with death. Dead babies in her womb, a few years ago, which became a “blob of tissue”. Dead babies in the womb of her family members. A person being hurtled(thrown with great force), not falling, from a hot air ballon, which was Sally’s excuse to propagandize for her version of her God, that plans ALL accidents in this world.A god who “plans” all “accidents”. And maybe in a far, far, far away galaxy, a blob of tissue is being “planned” to be “accidentally” transformed into Sally too.
Writing to Heather, she has seen more death then Heather.
1. Anymore death you have eyewitnessed Sally? Yes or no?
2. Sally stated; “If I(Sally) joined a military organization it’s PREFECTLY okey dokey to kill anyone who’s(who is) life is deemed(to have a opinion,judge) of no value.
3. Is the above statement,#2, the same opinion of you Sally, about babies in the womb? Yes or no.
4. If a person in the military deems/judges a person of no value, and kills him/her, has a crime been committed? yes or no.
5. Is their a military law that states a person in the military may kill a person of “no value”. YES or NO.
6, If yes, state such military law.
7.If a civilian kills another person, who is judged to be of no value by that person, has a crime been committed. Yes or no.
8.If a person states he/she killed a baby because
that baby had “no value” to that person, is that person who killed that baby, going to be tryed in a court of law, and most likly the defendants lawyer is going to plead “criminal insanity” Yes or no.
9. Are you insane Sally?
10. May you kill , from the reason of “no value”, your neighbor’s dog Sally . Yes or no.
11. Because you “thought” that you may kill from the reason of “no value” , and know that military organizations do such acts, have you a hatred for military organizations. Yes or no.
12. Are you scapegoating military organizations for your actions that you advocate Sally? Yes or no.
13. How many people have you killed from the opinion/deem of “no value”.
14. Have you been convicted or charged with a crime which you justified by the reason of “no value”. Yes or no.
15, How many acts againest other people have you committed by the justification, they had “no value”.
16. Were you a child when you committed your first act againest another person by the reason of them having “no value”.
17. Was your first act of “valuing” another person of having “no value”, your mother. Yes or no.
18. When you used chocolate mescaline, was your mind damaged from visions of babies melting into blobs of tissue. Yes or no.
19. When you got pregnant at 44? was that a “planned accident”.Yes or no.
20. Can you make yourself spontaneous abort Sally. yes or no
21. Where is the “you”, in you, SAllY?
22. Do you dream of the traumas you have eyewitnessed.yes or no.
23. Are you afraid Sally? yes or no.
24. Trauma is treatable. Yes or no.
25. Is your trauma therapy working. Yes or no.
26. Get trauma therapy if your not getting trauma therapy Sally.
Willing the true good for ya Sally.
Let’s not forget the good people of California. You know, the people who gave out all kinds of assistance to the victims of the tragic fire. They gave their money and their time. How selfish can you get?
Posted by: heather at November 11, 2007 3:19 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I WAS one of the people who helped during the fires.
What exactly do you do to help people?
Laura,
I don’t have to work and sacrifice to attain any means to serve food at a soup kitchen..so where’s the defense for that one? I don’t see what your big problem is in admitting that doing things for other people is better than doing them for yourself..or maybe it’s just that you could NEVER agree with something that a PLer says. And that really is just silly.
Laura,
I don’t have to work and sacrifice to attain any means to serve food at a soup kitchen..so where’s the defense for that one?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yeah, when people like us volunteer and donate with the time, skills and finances we have, it’s great. But it does make me wish I was Bill and Melinda Gates, Richard Branson, Warren Buffet or Steve Jobs – you know – the kind of people who can mobilize obscene amounts of money and manpower in a moment’s notice, and help literally millions of people.
My plastic surgeon is slightly richer than god and spends 10 weeks out of the year away from her lucrative practice to volunteer with Medicinnes Sans Frontiers all over the planet. I would love to have the kind of money and skills to do stuff like that.
Have you ever noticed that when you discuss Lotto or Powerball jackpots with people, they always bring up their dreams of donating as their first order of business? How cool would that be?
Laura, YOU weren’t the one who made the statement about selfish people. Why are you on the defensive? Also, Sally was responsible for that comment. I commend you for helping people, but did you do it because you were being selfish?
I was merely pointing out the insanity of Sally’s statement.
Laura, YOU weren’t the one who made the statement about selfish people. Why are you on the defensive? Also, Sally was responsible for that comment. I commend you for helping people, but did you do it because you were being selfish?
Posted by: heather at November 11, 2007 11:32 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes.
I help people and animals because it makes ME feel good.
As a believer in Karma, I absolutely believe that what goes around comes around and that I (yes, I) will one day benefit.
Laura,
It would be nice to have ridiculous amounts of money to go and help people and change their lives. But something simple like being a mentor to kids who are at risk doesn’t cost any money and the benefits go both ways. I don’t know if anyone saw the Diane Sawyer special about the kids from Camden, NJ. It was just heartbreaking. The one little girl playing in the park with the needles. She said “Be careful not to fall over here or you will get poked with a needle.” THAT was awful to see. Someone who saw her decided to mentor her and got her enrolled in a ballet class. I think that is how to change the world. Give kids in these horrible situations some hope about life, and the knowledge that there IS better out there for them. When my daughter gets older I would love to mentor kids.
There you go.
Laura is a self made women, who allows for no mistakes in life, from the principle of Karma.
Karma; The total result(effect) of a person’s actions and conduct during the successive phases of the person’s existence, regarded as DETERMING the person’s destiny/fate. Houghton Miflin.
1.There is only, “the absolute believe that WHAT goes around comes around”. Absolutley True or False.
2.There is only “right Karma”, because there cannot be any “wrong” Karma. True or false.
3.All actions upon other people, by Laura, are only “right actions” from giving them WHAT THEY deserve, from “the ABSOLUTE BELIEVE of what goes around, comes around “. True or False.
4.What happens to people is from the principle of what they have done is returning back to them. True or false.
5.When a baby is in the womb, and is aborted, the baby in the womb deserved to be aborted from the ABSOLUTE BELIEF, that what goes around comes around”. Yes or no.
6.The total effect/result of the “baby in the womb” actions and conduct during the successive phases of the baby in the womb’s existence, DETERMINED that baby in the wombs fate/destiny was to die. Yes or no.
A, Same question as above except the baby died one month after being born.Yes or no.
7.A baby being suck out of the womb, hacked up, and dying, is from “the absolute believe of what comes around goes around”. Yes or no.
8. That the JEWS in Nazi Germany was the total result of their(Jews) actions and conduct during successive phases of their existence,regarded as DETERMING their FATE/DESTINY. True or False.
9. The Nazi S.S. was giving the JEWS exactly what they got from the NAZI Schultzstaffel giving the Jews their “comes back around”, fate. Yes or no.
10. What did the Jew babies, women, and children, DO, to get what was coming to them as their karmic fate of being “gassed to death”?
11. Laura is insane. True or False.
12.Laura is insane, from the principle of her getting her “what goes around” returning back to her, as a “comes around”. True or False
13.Rape is “what comes around goes around” for a woman . True or False.
14. Rape is “what comes around goes around” for a man. True or False.
15. Not all rapist are caught. True or false.
16. Rapist believe she “had it coming to her”. True or False.
17. Are you,Laura, related to Insane Sally? Yes or no.
18.Rapist who are not caught, are not caught from the total effect of their past actions and conduct during successive phases of the rapist existence determining their destiny(KARMA).True or False
19.Hal is a homophobic bigot, from being on a sensual Polynesian island, and not having sexual relations with the same sex.
20. Hal will get what he deserves from the absolute believe in what goes around comes around. True or False.
21. Laura defends Hal’s bigotry from the absolute belief in what comes around goes around, is from Hal’s past life. True or False.
22. Laura secretly snickers at women who have had abortions from her belief in what goes around comes around. True.
23. The snicker is meant to affirm Laura’s beliefs, which have become reality from belief. True.
24.Now we know why Laura is for abortion. Laura knows the fetus was pre-destined to be aborted and relieves Laura of any conscience or consequence of her opinions, wishes, or judgements. It is all what comes around goes around.
is insane…
yllas, look in the mirror. Good grief….
Doug
So you believe in Karma too Doug?
Are you insane from paying your karmic debt with the isanity of being a permanent pessimistic personality?
Who preaches for abortion but does not practice abortion. Who appeals to pessimism and denies it is a emotion, simply cause Doug says that pessimsism is not based on the emotions of the depressive personality. Look in the mirror Doug.
Care to address any points about my Laura’s belief in what goes around comes around, Doug, or just spout off about your pessimism is not from being from your depressive personality?
How about point 6.? And if Laura really believes in karma, it is her reason for being so cavalier about abortion. No need to think, its just what happens to people from what goes around comes around.
Do Postal Goil: Who preaches for abortion
Now see, ya done screwed up right off the bat. I don’t preach, I leave it up to the woman or couple.
Doug
yllas: Care to address any points about my Laura’s belief in what goes around comes around, Doug,
I don’t know that she’s really yours. In any event, I reckon Laura can more than handle it, should she find anything you said there really worth replying to – a thing which is by no means guaranteed.
…..
or just spout off about your pessimism is not from being from your depressive personality?
No need to – your illogic and false pretenses speak plenty loudly enough.
……
How about point 6.?
Okay, lemme go back and see what it was…..
6.The total effect/result of the “baby in the womb” actions and conduct during the successive phases of the baby in the womb’s existence, DETERMINED that baby in the wombs fate/destiny was to die. Yes or no.
I don’t know what Laura’s beliefs are about that – if there is a “soul” in the unborn, if karma applies, etc. It’s up to her to answer. You can always ask her, you know.
Myself, while I obviously cannot rule out reincarnation, I don’t think that is what is operative.
……
And if Laura really believes in karma, it is her reason for being so cavalier about abortion. No need to think, its just what happens to people from what goes around comes around.
Again, I don’t know what she thinks about that, specifically, and I don’t think you do either.
Doug
Sally, I want to be clear on something you posted.
“The fetus stopped developing at 12 weeks. I attempted to spontaneously abort at 14 weeks. An abortion procedure was implimented to save my life. And yes, it did look like a blob of tissue both on the ultrasounds and in person. ”
Am I correct in concluding that the fetus died at 12 weeks since it stopped developing? Or were there still signs of life but it just wasn’t growing.?
The spontaneous abortion attempt: was that a “Wait-and-see-what-your-body-will-do” kind of attempt or something else?
The abortion past 14 weeks: that’s why I’m confused. If it stopped developing, which I’m interpreting as death in utero, then perhaps it wasn’t an abortion in the traditional sense in which the baby was alive during the procedure, but more like the removal of dead tissue.
I’m not looking to get flamed. I sincerely wish to be educated.
Posted by: carder at November 10, 2007 8:38 AM
………………………………………………………………..
Through the use of ultrasound, the doctor was able to ascertan that there had been no development between week 12 and week 14. Whether it was ‘alive’ or not at that point is irrelevant. It obviously was not going to develop into a baby. At the outside chance that the doctor was wrong, we took the wait and see approach.
Being that an abortion is the termination of a pregnancy, the procedure would be the same whether the fetus was still developing or not. Apparently my fetus was attached to my uterous and would not be dislodged by the massive blood clots I passed. A doctor had to be found to perform an abortion.
The whole experience was not very pleasant.
Are you for the choice, which is deciding between two or more options Doug? And that “choice” is between aborting a baby in the womb and NOT aborting a baby in the womb.
Your choice includes abortion. You Preach for ABORTION Doug. You also preach for not aborting too. But, your choice includes being for abortion. What a pessimistic personality which must include allowing death for other people’s babies in the womb. But, you would not practice your own preaching for abortion(pro choice) in your personal life. In your own personal life you do not, and will not allow abortion(pro life) of a women you got pregnant. Your a hypocrite to your pro choice preaching pessimist Doug. And a pessimist about other people’s life, but not your personal life when it comes to your principle of choice.
It is not about a soul or not. It about the law of Laura, which is, what goes around comes around.
Which gives Laura a principle to “blame” the baby in the womb, for its destiny. The destiny to be murdered by her mother, and blame the dead for their deserved death, by the principle of Karma.
It stops the conscience dead, it allows a mind to rot into simple thinking of fantasies where one’s actions and other’s actions are pre-ordained and free will is destroyed. You know that Doug, or your one of the most pessimistic pedants on this board, who
is on the rebound of being a TULIP Calvinist, and has no more ability to think beyond what goes around comes around.
Are you for the choice, which is deciding between two or more options Doug?
Yes, yllas, but that is not preaching for either.
_______
a TULIP Calvinist, and has no more ability to think beyond what goes around comes around
yllas, you are projecting. Not everybody is like you.
Doug (always willing to point out the obvious.)
Hodari’s “license to lie”
I blogged here and here that Wayne State University’s Medical Students for Choice invited late-term MI abortionist Alberto Hodari to speak November 9. Students for Life of America was there to catch the 50 minute speech on videotape with two…
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Wow… finally….