Tiller’s late-term abortions on parade
Kansas law only allows abortions after 22 weeks if two physicians who are not legally or financially affiliated agree “a continuation of the patient’s pregnancy would cause a substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function.” That’s it.
If you haven’t been following the story, a grand jury investigating George Tiller’s late-term abortions has issued 2 subpoenas: One, for all abortions Tiller committed after 21 weeks from July 1, 2003, to January 18, 2008; and one for all patients post-21 weeks who did not get one. The jury has specified that all identifiers be removed.
Tiller attorneys say this amounts to 2,000 records, and they filed a motion yesterday to block the subpoenas.
Troy Newman of Operation Rescue testified before the grand jury the week before they issued the subpoenas, providing 200 pages of evidence, including photos of obviously late-term mothers entering Tiller’s mill, below. My guess is many of these moms were carrying babies who were diagnosed, in their 2nd trimester, with handicaps.
To this day, Tiller advertises late term abortions for fetal handicaps, which is not an accepted exemption by KS law.
The first photo is of a non-aborting 22-week pregnant mom, to provide context.
See more photos on page 2.
The photos make me sick. How could they?
You don’t even know if any of those women were there for an abortion, much less how pregnant they are.
They might all be staff, the patient’s families, or the person who sells advertising space in the yellow pages – you have no clue.
Yeah, RIGHT, Laura.
Laura, that’s all he does: http://www.drtiller.com/
And I didn’t know couples sold yellow pages together or accompanied one another to each other’s work.
But hey, let’s find out, shall we?
The whole idea that there could possibly be a health reason to abort past viability is absurd on its face. If she’s in the middle of a life-threatening health crisis, any hospital with a maternity ward could perform a c-section and have that baby out of her within the hour. A friend of mine had three pregnancies terminated that way when she suffered life-threatening pregnancy complications — twice at 32 weeks, and once at 24 weeks. She has three living children from those three emergency terminations.
Why would anybody take a sick woman, whose life or health was in grave danger, halfway across the country to spend three days in a motel room, tended by her family or friends? Clearly her “health” has nothing to do with it.
Obstetricians gladly relegated the cranioclast to the Museum of Medical Horrors decades ago. What sort of ghoul demands a comeback?
The one in photo dated 9/04/07 makes me the saddest, I think. It seems as though she’s bonding with her baby with her hands just one more time before…..
:(
“The photos make me sick. How could they.”
Since all abortions make you sick, I hardly see how this is any different.
Jill, we all know that ALL businesses send only enormously pregnant employees to late-term abortion mills! In fact, they won’t even bother setting up an appointment unless they have a hugely pregnant employee they can send to debug the computer, sell advertising space, unclog the toilet, etc.
Not to mention they all bring male partners with them, dress casually, and don’t bring tools or briefcases.
No pregnant woman walking into a late term abortion facility is actually about to undergo an abortion! Tiller’s entire web site advertising these abortions is just a joke. He really plays Parchisi with his staff and laughs that the prolifers actually think that the businesspeople are really customers.
oh, shoot! alot of them are dated 9/4!!!
11a is the one that breaks my heart.
It’s not different, Anonymous, but it is still heart wrenching to see those bellies and know how that there was a sweet little baby in there who was doomed and had no way of escape..and who was creamated and forgotten with no love. Especially when you consider that these women feel those little babies kicking every day, and they know, they KNOW that there is a living human being in there and yet they choose to kill it because it’s not good enough for them. How could they? honestly.
There are no medical reason past viablity where Dr. Tiller’s services would be needed for medical reasons.
Even the AMA admits that – of course they have to cover themselves by implying they may not have thought of everything – but in 35 years no one has thought of anything.
A mid-second trimester through 40 weeks abortion at Dr. Tillers office is the same as vaginal birth. If the woman can have a vaginal birth at Tillers office than she can have a vaginal birth at a hospital to allow her child a chance at life.
Christina, really!!
But hey, let’s find out, shall we?
Posted by: Jill Stanek at January 29, 2008 4:26 PM
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Or maybe you could respect the privacy of law-abiding Americans!
Let’s find out, shall we?
yeah my impression was “I feel sick” too.
#’s 7 and 13 are sad – they are so far along….
I wonder how many were for wrong sex?
Oh Christina your soooooo right!
And Laura, it’s quite OBVIOUS to anyone that these woman are fairly far along in their pregnancies.
Or maybe you could respect the privacy of law-abiding Americans!
Let’s find out, shall we?
Laura, honestly, you’re just so full of crap. Do you have an off switch?
Bethany –
Plus there is medical testimony that not one abortionist or abortion supporter has tried to deny that show a fetus can feel pain after 20 weeks gestation. That is proven time again when a baby is born too early and cries when an IV catheter is set. As a matter of fact – these medical testimonies (primarily in the 1997 partial birth abortion ban bill)that show that a fetus at 20 weeks and beyond actually feels excruciating pain – this is because there skin is new and unoccustomed to touch. Kinda like when you skin your knees and all the skin is scraped off, the skin that grows back is ultra sensitive for awhile because it is new.
Not that all abortion isn’t horrific – but when science has proven the pain these babies feel at this point in pregnancy it just makes it all that much more traumatic. That society will turn their back on these babies but will throw a fit I spank my child.
Bethany,
Too funny.
I asked Laura earlier on another thread why she is so mean spirited. Still no answer.
I likened her to a junk yard dog that has been neglected and abused. She barks, sneers and growls at people to try and garner attention.
I guess she figures negative attention is better than no attention at all. She has shown little to no respect or compassion for anyone on this site.
Maybe if we say “FF heel”, or “down FF” or “FF sit” she may understand that better. Just a thought.
Laura –
There are on public property and their identy has been removed.
Exactly what law (with the exception of the possible illegal late term abortion) has been broken by taking these pictures?
Exactly how has there been an invasion of privacy when you can’t see their face, no identifying features can be seen nor are their cars visable?
oh – and “law-abiding”? These people may have participated in an illegal late term abortion. Lets wait for the investigation, kay? That is if Tiller can actually follow a court order.
You know what makes me sick?
Here, cruise through the pics awhile:
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/PEDHTML/PED026.html
Go to the website and click on Late Term Abortion Care Elective, the language is so vague it is left for anyone’ own interpretation.
How clever. How sick.
I asked Laura earlier on another thread why she is so mean spirited. Still no answer.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yeah, that was when you accused me of having the “DDTs.”
It’s true. I can prevent mosquito-borne malaria with my gaze.
“Yeah, that was when you accused me of having the “DDTs.”
It’s true. I can prevent mosquito-borne malaria with my gaze.”
*giggle*
I have to give you props on that one Laura.
And I’ve seen that website of the fetal deformities. It’s so sad. Interesting though…it shows how important genetic regulation is during development and what goes wrong when genes are turned on and off at the wrong time.
Hrm.
I didn’t know alveolar rhabdomyosarcoma was a neoplasm. I used to babysit a little boy who had that disease. He died a few years ago. :(
This was also on Dr. Tillers site: http://www.drtiller.com/directory.html
That makes me so sad. I threw a baby shower for a friend this past weekend. There were 5 other pregnant friends there. Looking quite a bit like the ladies in the pictures. They were playing “feel the bump” and laughing about the cravings and the kicking babes in their bellies.
My heart aches.
According to Tiller’s website:
“the easy part of the process is the premature delivery of a stillborn — the hard part is saying goodbye to the hopes, dreams and relationships that you have with your baby.”
http://drtiller.com/fetanom.html
“On the first day of the process, an injection of a medication is made into the baby to assure that it will be stillborn”
http://drtiller.com/fetanom.html
Even though most pro abort commenters can’t stand it when we say it. Tiller consistently refers to the baby as well, a baby.
The F word (fetus) isn’t used. Where is Erin? Someone tell her that abortionists think he or she is a baby before birth, so even more obvious the assertion that a baby isn’t a baby till born is entirely contrary to fact.
FF,
Those pictures were so sad. No woman should have to live knowing she has that living inside of her. Not living, but dying, maybe already dead. Or even worse, suffering constantly.
Tiller seems to expect women to grieve:
“Many patients request a remembrance of their baby to take home with them. The following lists items and services that some of our previous patients have found helpful in their emotional recovery….Grief is a very complex emotion which is expressed in many different ways.”
http://drtiller.com/remembrance.html
If Tiller knows how much grief abortion causes, why can’t some other pro aborts face it?
Why are so many calling grieving women “whiners”?
Maybe because they could not care less about how women are treated and even less about their kids.
those pictures made me sad :(
“Why are so many calling grieving women “whiners”?”
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I think it’s sweet that these women want to remember their children.
I think it’s sweet that these women want to remember their children.
Posted by: Jess at January 29, 2008 5:58 PM
Thank you for acknowledging that preterm babies are children.
Jess,
Yes those pictures are sad. There always have been and always will be grotesque fetal deformities, just as there will always be people deformed and mutilated by accidents, war, fire, and disease.
Only a tiny percentage of abortions are performed for fetal defect, rape, incest, and threat to the life of the mother. I have read less than 3 to 6%, so what FF’s point is in showing these pictures is beyond me.
If there is a non viable fetus or a fetus with anomalies incompatible with life, hospitals will induce preterm labor if the woman so chooses, especially if the anomalies pose a risk to her. I have seen just such a situation. There is no need for George Tiller. Better diagnostic techniques are enabling better diagnosis and successful pre-natal surgery.
Jess,
You think it is sweet that these women want to remember their babies after they kill them?
Honestly??
I would like to know the real percent of women who go to that clinic for the purpose of ending a pregnancy due to a fatal anomaly. Which one had a rock concert to attend? Which couple broke up and no longer wants to be connected by a baby? Which woman decided to take a last minute trip to Vegas and party with drunken celebreties and didn’t want to go pregnant?
A clinic in a city where I used to live was highlighted during the Clinton ere PBA discussions. A pro-choice reporter went to the clinic to interview women choosing late-term abortion so she could write a supportive piece on PBA. She found out that the women choosing late-term abortions were choosing them because not because of any health risk or fetal anomaly. It was becasue they just plain wanted to abort a healthy baby.
She quickly changed her position.
************
FF,
Those pictures were so sad. No woman should have to live knowing she has that living inside of her. Not living, but dying, maybe already dead. Or even worse, suffering constantly.
Posted by: Jess at January 29, 2008 5:40 PM
First of all, due to recent modern technology they now do know. I have posted this before, but women who choose to abort due to anomalies often suffer great depression and regret. First they are dealing with the knowledge and sometimes guilt that they are responsible somehow contributing to their babies condition. Now they are told to abort, killing thier child which adds to their grief.
A chaplain I knew counseled women all the time after early termination and they were very regretful.
Never once did she have any mother come back with reget who allowed nature take it’s course and decide when the baby will die before or upon birth. You may think the pictures you see are sad and grotesque, but for the mothers and fathers, they are their children and don’t necessarily see what you do. It was their child not a monster. The saddest picture I saw was the one torn apart by D&E.
Also, I thought you didn’t think babies could feel pain or suffer. So???
Hippie:
I went to Tiller’s Web Site:
It is a horrific web site saturated with political correctness and exquistie deception.
It absolutely breaks my heart that such a web site can even exist. Man am I naive.
The Bible says that, “Satan comes as an angle of light”.
How else would anyone expect such a practictioner of evil to present himself?
Read his curriculum vitae. You’d think this murderer was “Father Knows Best”.
This is the result of 35 years of a primarily Democratically controlled government that has sanctioned abortion, normalized homosexuality, and taken God and prayer out of schools.
Man, we are in big, big trouble. God have mercy on us all.
And the Chaplain……pure and utter evil.
Valerie:
Bethany –
Plus there is medical testimony that not one abortionist or abortion supporter has tried to deny that show a fetus can feel pain after 20 weeks gestation. That is proven time again when a baby is born too early and cries when an IV catheter is set. As a matter of fact – these medical testimonies (primarily in the 1997 partial birth abortion ban bill)that show that a fetus at 20 weeks and beyond actually feels excruciating pain – this is because there skin is new and unoccustomed to touch. Kinda like when you skin your knees and all the skin is scraped off, the skin that grows back is ultra sensitive for awhile because it is new.
Not that all abortion isn’t horrific – but when science has proven the pain these babies feel at this point in pregnancy it just makes it all that much more traumatic. That society will turn their back on these babies but will throw a fit I spank my child.
I couldn’t agree more. The contradiction is so unbelievably ridiculous. And right on about the pain.
Sandy:
Bethany,
Too funny.
I asked Laura earlier on another thread why she is so mean spirited. Still no answer.
I likened her to a junk yard dog that has been neglected and abused. She barks, sneers and growls at people to try and garner attention.
I guess she figures negative attention is better than no attention at all. She has shown little to no respect or compassion for anyone on this site.
Maybe if we say “FF heel”, or “down FF” or “FF sit” she may understand that better. Just a thought.
Haha I love it.. I’m going to start using it! :D
Hisman, when I first saw Tiller’s site, years ago, I went into my bedroom and just cried. I couldn’t believe it was real. I thought it had to be a fake website, but sadly it is real, and people like Jess and Laura support it wholeheartedly. That saddens me even more, that Jess could say something like, “Oh it’s so sweet that the mother’s want to remember their child”, as though killing them was a gesture of kindness?? “You’re not good enough for me to deal with, so I’ll kill you. Then I’ll want to remember you with pictures. I’m such a great mother! ”
Bethany:
Ah iniquity….who can understand?
Jess, Laura, should the mother of this child kill her daughter? Would it be acceptable to you if she shot her in the middle of the night to “relieve her suffering”?
Oh my goodness. Why was this guy allowed to live to adulthood with a tumor like this on his neck???? He probably should have been aborted, according to Laura. He doesn’t look exactly like every other human on the planet,so I suppose that means that he’s medical waste.
Should this girl with 8 limbs have been given surgery to correct her problem instead of being anesthetized and euthanized? I guess the mother made a mistake by not aborting….
See, you guys see objects when you look at these kinds of pictures. When you see pictures like the one Laura posted, and say, “Well that’s what happens when you don’t allow abortion”, you’re saying, “look how ugly that is. We can’t tolerate ugliness or deformity in our world”.
Got news for you. The ugly and deformed in this world are just as human as you and me- they are a part of humanity. They may not be beautiful to you, but you are very shallow people. You cannot see past the skin of an individual. I see no difference in the unborn children who have deformities and the people I posted above who have them. They are all people, who deserve to be loved and cared for. Even if they are doomed to die. They should be loved until the moment of natural death.
*snaps for bethany*
:) Thank you, PIP. :)
I’m not saying that those children should be killed because of their deformity, it’s not the deformity at all it’s the fact that obviously must be suffering because look at the extent of those deformities. A woman shouldn’t have to use her body to keep her child alive if it’s in pain and is dying. Ok then let her go into natural labor and let it be born natuarally. Will hospitals even induce labor in these situations?
For the other people, it’s sad that they have to go through that. Is the first girl suffering? It seems like it would be hard to breath and eat with her deformity. She is obviously living though, she’s not inside of her mother dying or dead. I’m sure given the right help she will continue to live and hopefully grow and thrive.
The man with the tumor on his neck isn’t horribly deformed. He has a tumor. It also seems like it must effect his health and I hope that he can have it removed as soon as possible, assuming he want’s it removed.
And the other little girl looks as if her extra limbs have already been removed. I’m glad someone could help her and I hope someone can help the others but if they can’t the mother shouldn’t be forced to have to keep the dying child inside of her especially if it will hurt her and possibly kill her too.
Jess, Laura, should the mother of this child kill her daughter? Would it be acceptable to you if she shot her in the middle of the night to “relieve her suffering”?
Oh my goodness. Why was this guy allowed to live to adulthood with a tumor like this on his neck???? He probably should have been aborted, according to Laura. He doesn’t look exactly like every other human on the planet,so I suppose that means that he’s medical waste.
Should this girl with 8 limbs have been given surgery to correct her problem instead of being anesthetized and euthanized? I guess the mother made a mistake by not aborting….
See, you guys see objects when you look at these kinds of pictures. When you see pictures like the one Laura posted, and say, “Well that’s what happens when you don’t allow abortion”, you’re saying, “look how ugly that is. We can’t tolerate ugliness or deformity in our world”.
Got news for you. The ugly and deformed in this world are just as human as you and me- they are a part of humanity. They may not be beautiful to you, but you are very shallow people. You cannot see past the skin of an individual. I see no difference in the unborn children who have deformities and the people I posted above who have them. They are all people, who deserve to be loved and cared for. Even if they are doomed to die. They should be loved until the moment of natural death.
Posted by: Bethany at January 29, 2008 7:17 PM
…………………………………….
Who pays for keeping these people alive? Countries with national health care? Who pays for the suffering of these people? You? Mouthing platitudes of ‘love’ really doesn’t approach the hell these people and those that love them live every day.
And the children Laura showed us were dying, if not dead, and suffered considerably.
The saddest part is some of these could have been prevented had the mothers had proper health care (enough foliate, I think one said).
True Sally, people should be working harder to help these people who appear to need it. I think the man with the tumor though seems like he would be able to lead a semi-normal life. The size of the tumor seems like it would be a hindrance, and I can’t imagine it would be easy to eat and breath.
And none of those three were ugly.
look at those cowardly men walking their wives into the death mill to have their children killed.
Obama doesn’t mind.
I’m not saying that those children should be killed because of their deformity, it’s not the deformity at all it’s the fact that obviously must be suffering because look at the extent of those deformities.
So is a child with leukemia. Should mothers be allowed to kill their kids who are dying with cancer, to relieve their suffering?
Jess, your thoughts are very similar to Nazi thoughts, and I’m not trying to insult you, but they really are. Do you not remember how they used the “suffering” of the mentally ill as a plea to euthanize them, to rid people of their “burden”?
Is the first girl suffering? It seems like it would be hard to breath and eat with her deformity.
Would you feel that it was okay to kill her if she was suffering, Jess?
She is obviously living though, she’s not inside of her mother dying or dead.
Soooo?
I’m sure given the right help she will continue to live and hopefully grow and thrive.
What if her mother can’t afford to do that? Can she kill her then?
The man with the tumor on his neck isn’t horribly deformed. He has a tumor. It also seems like it must effect his health and I hope that he can have it removed as soon as possible, assuming he want’s it removed.
So? Children with cleft lip are aborted all the time, simply because of the cleft palette which can be fixed with a simple surgery. What’s the difference? He’s medical waste, according to the abortion industry.
I hope someone can help the others but if they can’t the mother shouldn’t be forced to have to keep the dying child inside of her especially if it will hurt her and possibly kill her too.
If there is any chance that continuing the pregnancy will kill the mother, hospitals have ALWAYS been able to operate and save the mother, ALWAYS. And a hospital is a MUCH safer place for a pregnant woman to be than in Tiller’s abortion clinic.
Who pays for keeping these people alive? Countries with national health care? Who pays for the suffering of these people? You? Mouthing platitudes of ‘love’ really doesn’t approach the hell these people and those that love them live every day.
Who pays to keep mentally retarded people alive, Sally? Who pays to keep cancerous children alive? Who pays to keep children with Down’s syndrome or Cerebral Palsy alive? I’ll tell you. People who care about them.
People who respect human life. That’s who takes care of those people.
True Sally, people should be working harder to help these people who appear to need it. I think the man with the tumor though seems like he would be able to lead a semi-normal life. The size of the tumor seems like it would be a hindrance, and I can’t imagine it would be easy to eat and breath.
And none of those three were ugly.
Neither were any of the babies in the link Laura posted.
“Who pays for keeping these people alive? Countries with national health care? Who pays for the suffering of these people? You? Mouthing platitudes of ‘love’ really doesn’t approach the hell these people and those that love them live every day.”
how do you what those people feel Sally.
Pop quiz, where is this quote taken from:
“To keep a mentally ill person costs approximately 4 marks a day. There are 300,000 mentally ill people in care. How much do these people cost to keep in total? How many marriage loans of 1000 marks could be granted with this money?”
None of us is perfect. I am proof of that. I mean, MK is absolute and irrefutabel evidence of that (she’s just too smart for her britches, and Bethany, a heart made of metal…gold that is).
We all have deformities. Some physical, some mental, some of character.
If God thought we were good enough for Him to be brought into this world for His own sovereign purposes, then who are we to question the intent of His will and terminate any pregnancy?
I suspect that Dr. Tiller is mentally ill. The fact that the government gave him a framework in which to carry out his evil visa vie legalized abortion is the real tragedy. The man should be in prison for he is a law unto himself, the most dangerous kind of person.
Bethany,
You are missing my point. No one who is born should be killed (with the exception of self defense, IMO). It’s the fact that those children were dead or dying and in a lot of pain. Also I’m under the impression that continuing the pregnancy will hurt the mother, maybe not kill her but at least cause permanent damage. I’m sorry if you think that seems selfish to you but if a mother feels like the child inside of her is suffering and dying and she doesn’t want to prolong the pain for either of them she should be able to chose not to be pregnant. And if that means going into premature labor and delivering the child as naturally as possible then so be it.
Obama?
What about if the baby is NOT suffering and dying, Jess, and the mother just wants to be able to attend a rock concert?
“Neither were any of the babies in the link Laura posted.”
No but I thought it was sad they were so sick. No normal person enjoys seeing a sick baby. I think we would all like it if they were all healthy.
This is awful. If anybody has doubts that incrementalism is bad for the pro-life movement, just look at those pictures of bellies sheltering babies almost ready to enter the world.
“Neither were any of the babies in the link Laura posted.”
No but I thought it was sad they were so sick. No normal person enjoys seeing a sick baby. I think we would all like it if they were all healthy.
Those babies are not typical anyway, Jess. you’re assuming a LOT, if you think that all these woman above are aborting for reasons like that picture Laura posted a link to.
In 1987, the Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI), an affiliate of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America (PPFA), collected questionnaires from 1,900 women who were at abortion clinics procuring abortions. Of the 1,900, “420 had been pregnant for 16 or more weeks.” These 420 women were asked to choose among a menu of reasons why they had not obtained the abortions earlier in their pregnancies. Only two percent (2%) said “a fetal problem was diagnosed late in pregnancy,” compared to 71% who responded “did not recognize that she was pregnant or misjudged gestation,” 48% who said “found it hard to make arrangements,” and 33% who said “was afraid to tell her partner or parents.” The report did not indicate that any of the 420 late abortions were performed because of maternal health problems. [“Why Do Women Have Abortions?,” Family Planning Perspectives, July/August 1988.]
According to Peggy Jarman, spokeswoman for Dr. George Tiller, who specializes in late-term abortions in Wichita, Kansas:
About three-fourths of Tiller’s late-term patients, Jarman said, are teen-agers who have denied to themselves or their families they were pregnant until it was too late to hide it. [Kansas City Star]
“Who pays for keeping these people alive? Countries with national health care? Who pays for the suffering of these people? You? Mouthing platitudes of ‘love’ really doesn’t approach the hell these people and those that love them live every day.”
how do you what those people feel Sally.
Posted by: jasper at January 29, 2008 8:05 PM
……………………………………….
How can you not Jasper?
She has shown little to no respect or compassion for anyone on this site.
Maybe if we say “FF heel”, or “down FF” or “FF sit” she may understand that better. Just a thought.
Posted by: Sandy at January 29, 2008 4:56 PM
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So…Laura disrespects us, and we are going to gripe about her disrespect, and then we are going to turn around and disrespect her? Yall are better than that.
I know, Samantha, we were just venting. ;)
Bethany that quote was taken from Hitler. The “marks” gave it away. It’s nice if there are people who want to care for these people. It would be even nicer if we could find a way to help these people so they could live independently if they choose to. We need to focus more of our countries resources to helping cure these people if they want to be cured so they can take over their own lives.
And the rock concert thing, if she’s under the point of viability you know I think she should be able to abort no matter her reasoning.
How can you not Jasper?
that’s not an answer, Sally.
Tell me Laura.
Had you known that Hellen Keller would have been born blind would you have aborted her? How about that genius guy that talks with his computer? Yeah, imperfect….kill him….death to the misfit….how sad it is the reults of being pro-choice which is really life apathy defined.
Who knows what the world has lost because of abortion? It’s incalculable. The songs not written, the stories not told, the kids and their kids and their kids and their kids that will never see the light of day.
Yes, abortion, by design, is a satanic plan of destruction and all that support, promote, do and have abortions are playing the song of death right along with lucifer himself.
There are simply no insignificant human beings and every one, from the least to the greatest, fits into God’s plan of life and a future destiny of glory to be shared with Him.
Any casual attitiude towards abortion is damnable.
And the rock concert thing, if she’s under the point of viability you know I think she should be able to abort no matter her reasoning.
What if she’s after viability, Jess?
Jess,
Again, your side does not see these babies suffering while they are getting their limbs torn off one by one. Why do you think they are suffering in the womb due to their deformities?
The mother is providing all of the nourishment for them to survive while in the womb.
Please explain this to me.
Thanks.
Bethany that quote was taken from Hitler. The “marks” gave it away. It’s nice if there are people who want to care for these people. It would be even nicer if we could find a way to help these people so they could live independently if they choose to. We need to focus more of our countries resources to helping cure these people if they want to be cured so they can take over their own lives.
What if the mentally ill CAN’T be cured, Jess? Why can’t they just live the way they do. Why must they be “normal” in your eyes, in order to have worth?
Aren’t a lot of late term abortions being performed in hospitals? I wasn’t saying the women going to Dr. Tillers clinic were there for those reasons, I was talking about the fetuses with the problems Laura mentioned.
Well, Jess, I’m talking about Tiller, because that’s what this thread is about. Let’s talk Tiller. What do you think about those reasons, for late term, post viability abortions??
and by “those reasons” I mean cleft lip, down’s syndrome, and rock concerts!
“The mother is providing all of the nourishment for them to survive while in the womb.
Please explain this to me.”
Yes, the mother is providing all the nutrients they need to survive. Where else would they get their nutrients from?
We can always hope that there will be a cure Bethany. And I’m saying for people who want to be cured. I’m just saying if I had a tumor like him I would want it removed so I could live life easier. If they don’t want their conditions treated then the more power to them.
Heh…I would *love* mental illness to be cured someday. I’m so sick of having to deal with depression…
*sigh*
If there is any chance that continuing the pregnancy will kill the mother, hospitals have ALWAYS been able to operate and save the mother, ALWAYS. And a hospital is a MUCH safer place for a pregnant woman to be than in Tiller’s abortion clinic.
Posted by: Bethany at January 29, 2008 8:00 PM
………………………
That’s a silly assertion. It’s a very new concept for the ‘accepted’ medical community to involve themselves with pregnancy when compared to human history. Gee wiz! My mother was advised by her doctor to wear girdles to keep her girlish shape during pregnancy.
How old are you to believe that hospitals and OB/GYNs have always been readily available?
We can always hope that there will be a cure Bethany. And I’m saying for people who want to be cured. I’m just saying if I had a tumor like him I would want it removed so I could live life easier. If they don’t want their conditions treated then the more power to them.
Yes, he would like the tumor removed to make his life easier. He wouldn’t want his heart injected with poison so that he could die to relieve his burden on others.
That’s a silly assertion. It’s a very new concept for the ‘accepted’ medical community to involve themselves with pregnancy when compared to human history. Gee wiz! My mother was advised by her doctor to wear girdles to keep her girlish shape during pregnancy.
How old are you to believe that hospitals and OB/GYNs have always been readily available?
Where did I ever say that Ob/gyns have always been readily available, Sally?
What would you think if they just went into premature labor?
Cleft lips can be cured, I don’t know why people would abort just because of down syndrome, unless it’s more sever then I am thinking. And again, it’s their decision why they abort before viability.
I’m sorry I got off topic, I thought we switched to late term abortion because of fetal abnormalities. Sorry for that.
that’s not an answer, Sally.
Posted by: Bethany at January 29, 2008 8:17 PM
……………………………
Think harder. A lot harder.
What would you think if they just went into premature labor?
Cleft lips can be cured, I don’t know why people would abort just because of down syndrome, unless it’s more sever then I am thinking. And again, it’s their decision why they abort before viability.
I didn’t ask you about before viability, Jess, and you know it. You’re avoiding the question.
I’m sorry I got off topic, I thought we switched to late term abortion because of fetal abnormalities. Sorry for that.
That’s okay.
“Yes, he would like the tumor removed to make his life easier. He wouldn’t want his heart injected with poison so that he could die to relieve his burden on others.”
That goes back to, if the mothers could help them (save them from dying from their fetal abnormalities) they would.
Almost 90 percent of children with Down’s syndrome are aborted, most of the time by the recommendation of the doctors.
That goes back to, if the mothers could help them (save them from dying from their fetal abnormalities) they would.
And how do you know that the mothers are always 100 percent sure their babies are dying? And must I remind you that the majority of these late term abortions are NOT for fetal abnormality.
The mother should have the option of going into premature labor if they think it would benefit the fetus/their mental or physical health.
For a rock concert? I guess if I had my way they would go pregnant, sitting as far away from the speakers as possible and avoiding the smokers.
I admire Dr. Tiller for two reasons:
1. He’s very good at his job. If you’re a doctor and you have a patient who needs an abortion late in pregnancy, for whatever reason convinces you and the patient, you can rely on Dr. Tiller to get it done with minimal risk and minimal stress to the patient’s cervix and vagina.
2. He has been shot by a right-to-life terrorist, and yet he continues to practice. Gotta admire his guts!
The mother should have the option of going into premature labor if they think it would benefit the fetus/their mental or physical health.
For a rock concert? I guess if I had my way they would go pregnant, sitting as far away from the speakers as possible and avoiding the smokers.
That was me.
True Sally, people should be working harder to help these people who appear to need it. I think the man with the tumor though seems like he would be able to lead a semi-normal life. The size of the tumor seems like it would be a hindrance, and I can’t imagine it would be easy to eat and breath.
And none of those three were ugly.
Posted by: Jess at January 29, 2008 7:54 PM
…………………………….
Ugly is a state of mind. You look for what you perceive as being ugly and then blame someone else for your fear.
The pain of being alive to appease someone else’s sense of life/need, bothers me.
“Almost 90 percent of children with Down’s syndrome are aborted, most of the time by the recommendation of the doctors.”
That’s true, you never see downs syndrome kids around anymore. My brother use to work with them back in the 80’s when he was in college. They were the most loving kids…
The mother should have the option of going into premature labor if they think it would benefit the fetus/their mental or physical health.
That’s still not a direct answer. I asked about abortion. I didn’t ask about premature labor. Should they be allowed to have an abortion should they so choose, after viability, for reasons such as rock concerts and cleft lip?
Just answer the question honestly.
For a rock concert? I guess if I had my way they would go pregnant, sitting as far away from the speakers as possible and avoiding the smokers.
Would you deny them an abortion?
I didn’t ask what you’d prefer, but whether you would allow abortion in that situation. I’m not trying to be picky or mean but I just want to get to the bottom of this and I don’t have much longer to be able to post with you.
Sally, 8:27PM
How many times must I tell you that you are discussing ancient medical history? When our mothers were pregnant with us there were iron lung wards and TB sanitariums. I have never in my professional career even SEEN an iron lung and wouldn’t know what to do with one if I had. Bethany is correct, women could always legally get the care they needed, including abortion when medically necessary. Modern day diagnostic and surgical techniques provide for far more superior care than what our mothers had. There are also high risk maternal care units as well as neonatal intensive care units, something unheard of in our mothers’ day.
Sally,
Ugly usually equals illness. I think it’s because people don’t want to be sick or have other people remind them that they could become sick. That’s just my theory.
So maybe we should look for a cure. Take the trillions of dollars spent on stupid weapons and find out how to help these people not be sick (unless they want to be sick).
Ugly is a state of mind. You look for what you perceive as being ugly and then blame someone else for your fear.
The pain of being alive to appease someone else’s sense of life/need, bothers me.
The first half of that was beautifully said. The second sentence really had nothing to do with the first sentence, and was highly disturbing. In fact, if anything, the second sentence contradicted the first sentence.
Ugly usually equals illness. I think it’s because people don’t want to be sick or have other people remind them that they could become sick. That’s just my theory.
So maybe we should look for a cure. Take the trillions of dollars spent on stupid weapons and find out how to help these people not be sick (unless they want to be sick).
A cure for ugliness. And I thought I’d heard everything.
Pop quiz, where is this quote taken from:
“To keep a mentally ill person costs approximately 4 marks a day. There are 300,000 mentally ill people in care. How much do these people cost to keep in total? How many marriage loans of 1000 marks could be granted with this money?”
Posted by: Bethany at January 29, 2008 8:08 PM
……………………………
You are very strange. How much money does it take to support a German family of the time frame you are relating to? You really can’t put anything into logical context, can you?
Oh I’m sorry Bethany I mean that instead of abortion have the option to give birth naturally (as naturally as possible) prematuraly. So no abortions after viability if the child can be born naturally. This isn’t about killing babies, it’s about making women not pregnant anymore. So if you can be not pregnant and have the baby live then it’s best.
She doesn’t abort for the rock concert because as far as I know she doesn’t need one. The fetus isn’t harming her mentally or physically.
You are very strange. How much money does it take to support a German family of the time frame you are relating to? You really can’t put anything into logical context, can you?
Never mind, Sally. You obviously didn’t get the point. Jess got my point, and that’s all I was working towards anyway.
SOMG,
Dr. Josef Mengele was real good at his job too. Is this a reason to admire him? I understand he worked as an abortionist while on the run.
Dr. Mengele was an internationally hunted man but continued his abortion practice. Gotta admire his guts!!
Bethany, not a cure for ugliness. A cure for things like cancer and birth defects, cures that could allow people to live independently and to it’s fullest.
It was worded weird sorry.
Okay Jess… Thanks for answering the question, and I wish I could stay and discuss this longer but I’m starting to get a little bit of a headache so I’m going to get some rest and talk with you more later. Gater.
Sandy, you look a lot like i thought you would!
Ok Bethany good night!
I have a hamster named Sandy. He’s kinda the color of our Sandy’s hair. Blond and white. He’s a boy though. Such a good hamster, loves to be held.
what kind of hamster?
I have hamsters too, but they don’t like to held as much. They are so cute though, and like to run around in their balls. They are so cute when they sleep-often curled up next to each other!
In reference to the website of the fetal deformities. We’ve seen it before and most of those babies were born stillborn long before due date. And less than 1/2% live to birth. So, I’m not sure why this is such a huge discussion when it comes to late term abortions? They make up such a small percentage of abortions it’s rediculous to keep talking about it.
Also, on that website you will find pictures of aborted babies. Sure the definitions are vague and yadda yadda….however, I find it remarkable that they look JUST LIKE the abortion pictures that the pro-life movement always shows and is accused of showing “fake pictures”. I said it once, I’ll say it again – Thank you pro choicers for constantly linking to that website. You prove us right with it.
Also, on the subject of mental illness. I have clinical depression with severe AD/HD inattentive. I went through my pregnancy with no medications. I had some difficulites with it, and I’ve read where some women have used this type of mental illness to get an abortion. Just confuses me. I had no external family support – my mother had committed suicide which left my Dad and sisters dumbfounded and my in-laws were exploding at the seams. My husband works on a commission and his company’s head executives were sent to jail and the company had an inport/export ban for 1 year. This meant nothing to sell. We didn’t want to be pregnant at that time, but hey – we are the ones who had sex….. Yet, I had a baby girl and she is doing just fine and I cannot imagine life without her.
I just can’t believe how much I am saying this today…I’m beginning to feel like a broken record – especially since no one seems to be replying. Why do people think women are too weak to handle bad situations? Guess what? We aren’t! We can handle any situations that comes our way!
Sandy is a short haired teddy bear hamster. He loves to be held! I knew he was the right ham for me when I put my hand in his cage in the pet shop and he just walked right into it and looked up at me : ) He was the oldest and seemed a little sick, I just couldn’t leave him there. Now he’s a member of the family. Eats with us, watched tv with us, went on a road trip with me to see his “Dad” (my bf, I’m his mom, my parents are his grandparents, ect). He’s great.
Where are the abortion photos valerie?
Jess,
Sorry. This was the question I wanted you to respond to:
Jess,
Again, your side does not see these babies suffering while they are getting their limbs torn off one by one. Why do you think they are suffering in the womb due to their deformities?
*************
Also, in regard to your question about mothers going into premature labor to avoid abortion. This is still considered abortion.
They use the term “interrupted pregnancy” to make it sound more acceptable. It is the same type of abortion that brought Jill into the pro-life movement. Yes there are many hospitals who perform this type. They induce the mother early, they deliver a live baby which is left to suffer and die.
Oh I didn’t mean let it suffer and die afterward, I meant take it home, give it up for adoption…
When they abort usually the fetus can’t feel pain. And a few seconds of excruciating pain would be better then say weeks or months of pain until they die.
Sandy, you look a lot like i thought you would!
Posted by: prettyinpink at January 29, 2008 8:50 PM
Hey PIP,
I think Bethany cropped that photo from a picture taken of us in front of the White House when we were in D.C. We had just walked a couple blocks through a frozen wind tunnel. My hair took a beating. Didn’t care though. We had a great tour of the White House and a fantastic weekend together.
It’s so strange when the image of someone you have never met is what you thought it would be.
I guess even stranger though, when it is nothing like you envisioned someone to look like.
Jess, I have two Chinese dwarf hamsters. They are tres adorable but since they are small and more mousey they don’t like to be held as much. They can’t be outside their cage either because they are so small they get lost. once, before I got their hamster balls I tried to change the cage with them in the general area. He ran under the fridge and my roommate and I spent 30 minutes trying to get him out! He is so tiny!
I recently got some fishies too…check out my blog! I also might inherit a guinea pig in the near future! *crosses fingers* I’m going to be like the chick on Being John Malkovich lol
Jess,
So aborting 19 or 20 week old unborn baby should be legal, but a 22 or 23 week old should not be?
It’s okay Sandy you look fab! I definitely imagined the blond hair on you, because of your name, and I was right!
I have a hamster named Sandy. He’s kinda the color of our Sandy’s hair. Blond and white. He’s a boy though. Such a good hamster, loves to be held.
Posted by: Jess at January 29, 2008 8:53 PM
Jess,
LOL. Many people have told me they used to have a dog named Sandy. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard that.
Hisman, 6:51, 8:09, 8:18 P.M.
Your posts are extremely thoughtful and compassionate. Thank you!
Hisman, 6:51, 8:09, 8:18 P.M.
Your posts are extremely thoughtful and compassionate. Thank you!
Hisman, 6:51, 8:09, 8:18 P.M.
Your posts are extremely thoughtful and compassionate. Thank you!
Hisman, 6:51, 8:09, 8:18 P.M.
Your posts are extremely thoughtful and compassionate. Thank you!
Hisman, 6:51, 8:09, 8:18 P.M.
Your posts are extremely thoughtful and compassionate. Thank you!
Hisman, 6:51, 8:09, 8:18 P.M.
Your posts are extremely thoughtful and compassionate. Thank you!
Hisman, 6:51, 8:09, 8:18 P.M.
Your posts are extremely thoughtful and compassionate. Thank you!
Hisman, 6:51, 8:09, 8:18 P.M.
Your posts are extremely thoughtful and compassionate. Thank you!
Hisman, 6:51, 8:09, 8:18 P.M.
Your posts are extremely thoughtful and compassionate. Thank you!
The law Tiller is accused of having broken is likely unconstitutional anyway, as it does not contain the health exception.
SoMG,
would you ever abort a 25 week old unborn child?
Jess –
“Where are the abortion photos valerie?”
All over the place. You have to go through most of the pictures, and read the descriptions. One of the pictures is of twins that were aborted because one “might” have had some sort of disease. Gotta love it.
Go to the link provided above. At the bottom of the pictures are arrows and an “index” button. That will take you to a list of Pathologies..just cruise around… and there are many other lists too…
But, I won’t let you go away empty handed……
library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/PEDHTML/PED028.html
You will have to copy and paste – my computer won’t let me link to a website right…..
SOMG:
“The law Tiller is accused of having broken is likely unconstitutional anyway, as it does not contain the health exception.”
I guess the woman just has those two Doctors look at her and say – “sorry can’t have an abortion even thought the law says two doctors must agree that an abortion would be justified do to health of the mother”
Read the law again.
It is practically a duplicate of the law that is in England by the way.
SOMG:
I should remind you to read the actual law that was voted on and not the bill that was turned down because there was not a health exception. The law that is in place has the exception. OOps…did Planned Parenthood’s website forget to update that little bitty fact?
Here ya go….
K.S.A. 65-6703 criminalizes post-viability abortions unless the abortion is
performed by a physician with a documented referral from an
independent physician who agrees that the abortion is necessary to
preserve the life of the pregnant woman or that continuation of the
pregnancy will cause substantial and irreversible impairment of a major
bodily function; requires physicians performing abortions to: determine
and document gestational age, and–for those fetuses of 22 weeks or more
gestational age–determine and document whether the fetus is viable, and
to report such determinations and the basis for same to the Secretary of
Health and Environment along with other statistical information about all
abortions performed required by K.S.A. 65-445. 1992, 1993, 1998
K.S.A. 65-6721 criminalizes abortions performed using the intact dilation
and extraction method after the fetus becomes viable unless the physician
can document that: (1) the abortion is necessary to preserve the life of the
pregnant woman; or (2) a continuation of the pregnancy will cause a
substantial and irreversible impairment of a major physical or mental
function of the pregnant woman. 1998
Take the trillions of dollars spent on stupid weapons and find out how to help these people not be sick (unless they want to be sick).
OK, what?
Unless they want to be sick?
“sure I’m okay with that deformity that leaves me unable to to walk..don’t bother finding a cure”
??
Valerie,
Can nurses perform abortions, or does it have to be a doctor?
Just curious.
Valerie,
Can nurses perform abortions, or does it have to be a doctor?
Just curious.
Valerie,
Can nurses perform abortions, or does it have to be a doctor?
Just curious.
Valerie,
Can nurses perform abortions, or does it have to be a doctor?
Just curious.
Valerie,
Can nurses perform abortions, or does it have to be a doctor?
Just curious.
Valerie,
Can nurses perform abortions, or does it have to be a doctor?
Just curious.
Valerie,
Can nurses perform abortions, or does it have to be a doctor?
Just curious.
Valerie,
Can nurses perform abortions, or does it have to be a doctor?
Just curious.
Valerie,
Can nurses perform abortions, or does it have to be a doctor?
Just curious.
Oh I’m sorry Bethany I mean that instead of abortion have the option to give birth naturally (as naturally as possible) prematuraly. So no abortions after viability if the child can be born naturally. This isn’t about killing babies, it’s about making women not pregnant anymore. So if you can be not pregnant and have the baby live then it’s best.
She doesn’t abort for the rock concert because as far as I know she doesn’t need one. The fetus isn’t harming her mentally or physically.
It’s somewhat interesting to me that at times you refer to babies as babies and then you refer to them as fetuses. Do you just call it a fetus at certain points so you can justify the abortion? Is it only a baby when it’s convenient for you to think of it as such?
Elizabeth,
I meant baby after the birth the fetus meant before the birth so we know what I mean when I’m talking about premature delivery ect…
About the cure thing, I don’t know maybe someone finds their ailment gives them a more optimistic outlook on life? It’s their body their choice.
Valerie, that’s not the full health exception. The health exception described in Roe v. Bolton is broader and does not require “substantial and irreversible impairment of a major
bodily function”. It’s precisely because of this that the Kansas law is (probably) unconstitutional.
The fact is, the charges against Tiller are BS, and everyone knows it, including the people who are bringing them.
Janet:
Thank you. Compliments towards me are rarely given. You are very, very kind.
I deeply care, not only about unborn babies, but the people, who in their distorted way of exhibiting compassion, say they are pro-choice, etc. These people will be utterly terrified when they meet the living God unless they change. I fear for them and my desire is to warn them in the sternest way possible. Abortion is murder and its perfomance has eternal consequences.
We must never lose sight of the fact that abortion is always wrong and is never acceptable and we must never back down from those that would assert their wrong ways of thinking through the exercise of intimidation by political correctness.
Of course I feel for a girl or woman who either by her own bad choice or that of someone else has unintentionally become pregnant. The solution to that problem is never abortion. God always provides a way. My mom used to say, “every baby comes with a loaf of bread”. By the standards of today I was a justifiable candidate for being aborted. I was the last of 8 children, my mother had euremic poisoning, she was 46 and my dad was 56. She had just started a new job. The last thing she wanted was another baby. Well, I’m here. I was loved, nurtured and have become very successful out of the ghettos of upstate NY.
I have said it before and I say it again. If my daughter were raped and became pregnant I would counsel her to have the baby and if need be I would raise it and love it as my own. I am sure that my daughter, because of the on-fire person for Christ that she is, would agree. I am positive that God would turn that baby into a blessing.
Just a note: My daughter came home from college this weekend. On Satuday night my wife had gone out with the girls and my 11 year old was at my friend’s house. I got home about 7 pm and my daughter was there alone. So, it was just me and her. She said, “dad, do you want to go pray”, I said, “sure”, she said, “let’s go the the Phoenix First Assembly prayer chapel”. In the meantime, my oldest son called and asked us what we were doing and we said that we were going to pray. He met us at the chapel. We all prayed together for three hours….for each other, for an end to abortion, for the election, for our situations, for a lot of stuff. I tell you I am a very wealthy man. I have children that are on fire for Jesus Christ and are not afraid to stand up for Him. If I were a billioniare I could not buy that. God is good and He is faithful.
The whole thing is an abuse of the Kansas law pertaining to grand juries. With enough signatures, you can empanel a grand jury to investigate almost anything.
I meant baby after the birth the fetus meant before the birth so we know what I mean when I’m talking about premature delivery ect…
Ohh so it’s not a person until it comes out the shoot…ohh okayy..
:slams head into computer screen:
I swear that’s what I feel like doing when I read some of these comments.
Kansas law only allows abortions after 22 weeks if two physicians who are not legally or financially affiliated agree “a continuation of the patient’s pregnancy would cause a substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function.” That’s it.
Nope, that’s not it. If the fetus is beyond 22 weeks, yet so horribly crippled that it couldn’t possibly survive, it’s not viable, so aborting it is obviously no problem.
Why should these women have to carry dying fetuses to term just so you can stick your head in the sand and pretend that pregnancies never go wrong? Get over it and leave these poor people alone. They’ve suffered enough.
Janet:
This is from the latest CDC report which came out in Nov 2007. The information in that report is for 2004 statistic:
“Legal induced abortion was defined as a procedure, performed
by a licensed physician or someone acting under
the supervision of a licensed physician, that was intended
to terminate a suspected or known intrauterine pregnancy
and to produce a nonviable fetus at any gestational age”
So under the definitions that the CDC uses to obtain its information the person performing the abortion doesn’t have to be licensed at all.
SOMG:
The Doe V Bolton decision has been reviewed and limited limitations has been set through the supreme courts. Through court cases the Kansas law has :
Kansas law requires two doctors to conclude that if the pregnancy continues, a mother-to-be will face death or
Oops…tires…forgot to say where I got that quote from regarding how the law has been interpreted:
Its from the Topica Capital Journal….its an article that I saved but the link doesn’t bring up the article anymore…..
tires???
I meant tired…
going to bed now…
ZZZZZZZZZZZZ
SoMG,
You say you admire Tiller’s skill. I have a question about that for you. What does Tiller inject into a mother’s womb to kill her baby and how does it cause the baby’s death?
Potassium Chloride or digoxin intracardially, guided by ultrasound.
Causes cardiac arrest.
Why?
How long does it take to work? Does it cause any physical damage to the babys skin like burning and stuff like that?
How large a dose is it? Does it work by changing the chemical composition ioside the womb or is it injected directly into the baby?
No, I think you are thinking of saline abortion, in which a hypotonic salt solution is injected into the uterus. I can’t think of anyone who does those today.
Tiller, and others like him, starts with a direct injection into the fetus’s heart of KCl or digoxin. Instant cardiac arrest.
No it doesn’t burn the skin.
No, I think you are thinking of saline abortion, in which a hypertonic salt solution is injected into the uterus. I can’t think of anyone who does those today.
Tiller, and others like him, starts with a direct injection into the fetus’s heart of KCl or digoxin. Instant cardiac arrest.
No it doesn’t burn the skin.
That’s HYPERTONIC.
How long is it usually between injection and abortion?
What do you mean? The fetus dies immediately upon injection, then you either remove it piece by piece or induce a stillbirth.
There was a post on this blog just about a week ago that showed women who went to Tiller and he injected the saline and had them come back ten days later.
Have you ever practiced any religion or sought out your spiritual side?
Do you think there is any bad karma in killing a healthy viable fetus?
Maybe you could find that post and repost it? I’d be interested to read it.
No and Yes.
Not if the pregnant woman doesn’t want to give birth to it.
You say no you have never sought out your spiritual side.
You say yes there is bad karma in killing a healthy viable fetus.
How is that possible when karma is a reference to the spiritual?
I looked for that post again myself and couldn’t find it. Maybe the moderator can help us when she wakes up in the morning. I remember it though. Tiller seemed very proud. He had several of these women out having group meetings . Then he injected them. Then they came back and delivered the baies into the toilet.
Before any of you go with your support and admiration for Tiller, (I refuse to call him “Doctor” because he is the complete antithesis of what Doctors are supposed to be all about) you need to do some research on him and his practice.
Not only has he laughed at the laws of Kansas regarding abortion, he has contributed hundreds of thousands of dollars to the campaigns of the very officials who should be prosecuting him. This is all on publidc record.
It’s been proven that the other doctor who isn’t supposed to be financially connected with him when late term abortions are done, and is supposed to be an impartial second opinion, is in fact in direct cahoots with him.
His “right hand aide” is a woman with NO medical training or education…who administers drugs, gives injections, etc. This has all been documented as well.
The minister shown on his website, who performs the funerals/memorials for the dead babies, has been dead for a few years now. He has someone else now doing it.
Tiller has managed thus far to get away with a LOT because of his financial contributions to the Governor, D.A.’s, Attorney General, etc.
None of this is news to anyone. You can learn all about what goes on in his mill by reading the testimonies of former employees of his…and there are several.
Look at the guys mug-shot, and decide for yourself after reading about him, just how much of a deranged megalomaniac he is. Thus far, he has escaped prosecution for everything because of corrupt politics and the money he contributes, and no charges ever stick to him, which is why they refer to him as “Teflon Tiller”.
His days as a baby killer are numbered. This mess he’s involved in will bring him down. There is too much evidence against him and it’s just a matter of time.
He is quoted as saying, “Doing abortions is worth going to hell for”. If he only truly knew what he was saying.
I may have misinterpreted your post. What you were saying is that you do not see any bad karma in killing a fetus if the mother does not want to give birth. Is that accurate?
SoMG,
I am slightly confused. I thought on a previous post to me you had stated that you were comfortable with killing a fetus only up until viability. Can you clarify your position.
Also, I would be very interested to know what if any religion have you ever practiced and/or how do you seek out your spiritual side?
Doug and SoMG,
Maybe you could answer this question for me.
What have you ever done and what do you do now to try and better understand that part of “you” that makes “you” think it is wrong to kill a viable healthy baby?
Sandy, Tiller doesn’t dismember the late term babies. He gives them a variation of the lethal injection that is “to cruel” for a conviced multiple-murderer, without the anesthesia that the convict gets. The baby just gets a jab in the heart with potassium chloride. Why? “To ensure a stillbirth.” In other words, because they’re old enough that they could be born alive. If they were being aborted prior to viability, no lethal inejection would be necessary to achive death. Just induce labor and let nature take its course once the baby comes out too premature to live more than a few minutes.
Jess, most late abortions are done in outpatient facilities, same as other abortions.
Here’s the real clincher in Tiller’s claim that these women all have life-threatening health problems: Why does he keep them in a motel for three days, tended by whatever friend or family they brought? If they’re so terribly sick that the pregnancies are a danger to them, shouldn’t they be in a hospital while the “dangerous” pregnancies are being “termianted”? And why not just spend an hour, do a c-section, and be done with this high-risk pregnancy? Why drag it on for three days?
Who pays for keeping these people alive? Countries with national health care? Who pays for the suffering of these people? You? Mouthing platitudes of ‘love’ really doesn’t approach the hell these people and those that love them live every day.
In the U.S., often times private insurance or medicaid (which is funded by taxes) pays for the care and there are numerous private organizations which also provide assistance. Sally, I work as direct support staff at a facility for children and adults with severe developmental, behavior, and communication (read: autism) disabilities and give my best care and guidance to these children. These are children just like any other child, only facing more challenges, they deserve the same care, love, education and the right to live as any other child.
Who pays to keep mentally retarded people alive, Sally? Who pays to keep cancerous children alive? Who pays to keep children with Down’s syndrome or Cerebral Palsy alive? I’ll tell you. People who care about them.
People who respect human life. That’s who takes care of those people.
Well said, Bethany!
Valerie,
I’m sorry to hear that you also suffer from depression. I too suffer from major depression and also have a diagnosis of ADD (w/o hyperactivity). My thoughts are with you and Rae in your struggles as well.
Rachel –
Thanks. My thoughts are with you as well.
I can’t the images of these women out of my mind!!!I have been praying hard since yesterday.
Rachael,
Good for you and the wonderful work you do. I have a friend who has been a special ed. teacher for years. Her devotion, enthusiasm, and the concern she has for her students is beyond words.
She has often pointed out incorrect diagnoses by doctors and enabled these students to in fact be properly educated. I would trust her opinion any day over that of anyone with an office and a fancy diploma.
“Of course I feel for a girl or woman who either by her own bad choice or that of someone else has unintentionally become pregnant. The solution to that problem is never abortion. God always provides a way. My mom used to say, “every baby comes with a loaf of bread”.”
HisMan 10:55,
You’re welcome. Your mom’s quote is great! God bless you and your family.
“Of course I feel for a girl or woman who either by her own bad choice or that of someone else has unintentionally become pregnant. The solution to that problem is never abortion. God always provides a way. My mom used to say, “every baby comes with a loaf of bread”.”
HisMan 10:55,
You’re welcome. Your mom’s quote is great! God bless you and your family.
“Of course I feel for a girl or woman who either by her own bad choice or that of someone else has unintentionally become pregnant. The solution to that problem is never abortion. God always provides a way. My mom used to say, “every baby comes with a loaf of bread”.”
HisMan 10:55,
You’re welcome. Your mom’s quote is great! God bless you and your family.
“Of course I feel for a girl or woman who either by her own bad choice or that of someone else has unintentionally become pregnant. The solution to that problem is never abortion. God always provides a way. My mom used to say, “every baby comes with a loaf of bread”.”
HisMan 10:55,
You’re welcome. Your mom’s quote is great! God bless you and your family.
“Of course I feel for a girl or woman who either by her own bad choice or that of someone else has unintentionally become pregnant. The solution to that problem is never abortion. God always provides a way. My mom used to say, “every baby comes with a loaf of bread”.”
HisMan 10:55,
You’re welcome. Your mom’s quote is great! God bless you and your family.
“Of course I feel for a girl or woman who either by her own bad choice or that of someone else has unintentionally become pregnant. The solution to that problem is never abortion. God always provides a way. My mom used to say, “every baby comes with a loaf of bread”.”
HisMan 10:55,
You’re welcome. Your mom’s quote is great! God bless you and your family.
“Of course I feel for a girl or woman who either by her own bad choice or that of someone else has unintentionally become pregnant. The solution to that problem is never abortion. God always provides a way. My mom used to say, “every baby comes with a loaf of bread”.”
HisMan 10:55,
You’re welcome. Your mom’s quote is great! God bless you and your family.
“Of course I feel for a girl or woman who either by her own bad choice or that of someone else has unintentionally become pregnant. The solution to that problem is never abortion. God always provides a way. My mom used to say, “every baby comes with a loaf of bread”.”
HisMan 10:55,
You’re welcome. Your mom’s quote is great! God bless you and your family.
“Of course I feel for a girl or woman who either by her own bad choice or that of someone else has unintentionally become pregnant. The solution to that problem is never abortion. God always provides a way. My mom used to say, “every baby comes with a loaf of bread”.”
HisMan 10:55,
You’re welcome. Your mom’s quote is great! God bless you and your family.
Mike and Christina,
You both make excellent points concerning the “care” of women who supposedly have serious health issues with their pregnancies. If these women have health issues, why aren’t they being seen by specialists? Why didn’t they just go to the nearest facility that can provide them with the care they need, by people credentialled to give this care?
On Tiller’s site, you see nothing about the credentials of his staff. The doctor’s offices I have visited have proudly displayed such credentials.
Is there no board of licensing and regulation in Kansas to prevent an untrained “assistant” from administering drugs and supervising patient care?
These are very serious violations. How does Tiller get away with this?
Doesn’t the Health Department have some issue with laboring, bleeding patients using a local hotel? What kind of cleanup and disinfecting, if any, is done afterward? Does this not pose a very serious risk to some unsuspecting motel guest?
It seems a few agencies that should be protecting the public are looking the other way where Tiller is concerned.
Posted by: valerie at January 29, 2008 11:07 PM:
“Legal induced abortion was defined as a procedure, performed
by a licensed physician or someone acting under
the supervision of a licensed physician, that was intended
to terminate a suspected or known intrauterine pregnancy
and to produce a nonviable fetus at any gestational age”
Valerie, thanks for the information.
How do they define “acting under supervision”? Legally, “supervision” can have different definitions, depending on the business. Does “acting under supervision” mean DIRECT supervision where the physician is actually present in the room at the time of the abortion, or does supervision refer to administrative duties and ensuring medical compliance, proper record-keeping, etc…. ? I don’t mean to nit-pick, but there’s a big difference between the two scenarios from a patient’s perspective. Thanks.
Posted by: valerie at January 29, 2008 11:07 PM:
“Legal induced abortion was defined as a procedure, performed
by a licensed physician or someone acting under
the supervision of a licensed physician, that was intended
to terminate a suspected or known intrauterine pregnancy
and to produce a nonviable fetus at any gestational age”
Valerie, thanks for the information.
How do they define “acting under supervision”? Legally, “supervision” can have different definitions, depending on the business. Does “acting under supervision” mean DIRECT supervision where the physician is actually present in the room at the time of the abortion, or does supervision refer to administrative duties and ensuring medical compliance, proper record-keeping, etc…. ? I don’t mean to nit-pick, but there’s a big difference between the two scenarios from a patient’s perspective. Thanks.
Posted by: valerie at January 29, 2008 11:07 PM:
“Legal induced abortion was defined as a procedure, performed
by a licensed physician or someone acting under
the supervision of a licensed physician, that was intended
to terminate a suspected or known intrauterine pregnancy
and to produce a nonviable fetus at any gestational age”
Valerie, thanks for the information.
How do they define “acting under supervision”? Legally, “supervision” can have different definitions, depending on the business. Does “acting under supervision” mean DIRECT supervision where the physician is actually present in the room at the time of the abortion, or does supervision refer to administrative duties and ensuring medical compliance, proper record-keeping, etc…. ? I don’t mean to nit-pick, but there’s a big difference between the two scenarios from a patient’s perspective. Thanks.
Posted by: valerie at January 29, 2008 11:07 PM:
“Legal induced abortion was defined as a procedure, performed
by a licensed physician or someone acting under
the supervision of a licensed physician, that was intended
to terminate a suspected or known intrauterine pregnancy
and to produce a nonviable fetus at any gestational age”
Valerie, thanks for the information.
How do they define “acting under supervision”? Legally, “supervision” can have different definitions, depending on the business. Does “acting under supervision” mean DIRECT supervision where the physician is actually present in the room at the time of the abortion, or does supervision refer to administrative duties and ensuring medical compliance, proper record-keeping, etc…. ? I don’t mean to nit-pick, but there’s a big difference between the two scenarios from a patient’s perspective. Thanks.
Posted by: valerie at January 29, 2008 11:07 PM:
“Legal induced abortion was defined as a procedure, performed
by a licensed physician or someone acting under
the supervision of a licensed physician, that was intended
to terminate a suspected or known intrauterine pregnancy
and to produce a nonviable fetus at any gestational age”
Valerie, thanks for the information.
How do they define “acting under supervision”? Legally, “supervision” can have different definitions, depending on the business. Does “acting under supervision” mean DIRECT supervision where the physician is actually present in the room at the time of the abortion, or does supervision refer to administrative duties and ensuring medical compliance, proper record-keeping, etc…. ? I don’t mean to nit-pick, but there’s a big difference between the two scenarios from a patient’s perspective. Thanks.
Posted by: valerie at January 29, 2008 11:07 PM:
“Legal induced abortion was defined as a procedure, performed
by a licensed physician or someone acting under
the supervision of a licensed physician, that was intended
to terminate a suspected or known intrauterine pregnancy
and to produce a nonviable fetus at any gestational age”
Valerie, thanks for the information.
How do they define “acting under supervision”? Legally, “supervision” can have different definitions, depending on the business. Does “acting under supervision” mean DIRECT supervision where the physician is actually present in the room at the time of the abortion, or does supervision refer to administrative duties and ensuring medical compliance, proper record-keeping, etc…. ? I don’t mean to nit-pick, but there’s a big difference between the two scenarios from a patient’s perspective. Thanks.
Posted by: valerie at January 29, 2008 11:07 PM:
“Legal induced abortion was defined as a procedure, performed
by a licensed physician or someone acting under
the supervision of a licensed physician, that was intended
to terminate a suspected or known intrauterine pregnancy
and to produce a nonviable fetus at any gestational age”
Valerie, thanks for the information.
How do they define “acting under supervision”? Legally, “supervision” can have different definitions, depending on the business. Does “acting under supervision” mean DIRECT supervision where the physician is actually present in the room at the time of the abortion, or does supervision refer to administrative duties and ensuring medical compliance, proper record-keeping, etc…. ? I don’t mean to nit-pick, but there’s a big difference between the two scenarios from a patient’s perspective. Thanks.
Posted by: valerie at January 29, 2008 11:07 PM:
“Legal induced abortion was defined as a procedure, performed
by a licensed physician or someone acting under
the supervision of a licensed physician, that was intended
to terminate a suspected or known intrauterine pregnancy
and to produce a nonviable fetus at any gestational age”
Valerie, thanks for the information.
How do they define “acting under supervision”? Legally, “supervision” can have different definitions, depending on the business. Does “acting under supervision” mean DIRECT supervision where the physician is actually present in the room at the time of the abortion, or does supervision refer to administrative duties and ensuring medical compliance, proper record-keeping, etc…. ? I don’t mean to nit-pick, but there’s a big difference between the two scenarios from a patient’s perspective. Thanks.
Posted by: valerie at January 29, 2008 11:07 PM:
“Legal induced abortion was defined as a procedure, performed
by a licensed physician or someone acting under
the supervision of a licensed physician, that was intended
to terminate a suspected or known intrauterine pregnancy
and to produce a nonviable fetus at any gestational age”
Valerie, thanks for the information.
How do they define “acting under supervision”? Legally, “supervision” can have different definitions, depending on the business. Does “acting under supervision” mean DIRECT supervision where the physician is actually present in the room at the time of the abortion, or does supervision refer to administrative duties and ensuring medical compliance, proper record-keeping, etc…. ? I don’t mean to nit-pick, but there’s a big difference between the two scenarios from a patient’s perspective. Thanks.
Oh I’m sorry Bethany I mean that instead of abortion have the option to give birth naturally (as naturally as possible) prematuraly. So no abortions after viability if the child can be born naturally. This isn’t about killing babies, it’s about making women not pregnant anymore. So if you can be not pregnant and have the baby live then it’s best.
She doesn’t abort for the rock concert because as far as I know she doesn’t need one. The fetus isn’t harming her mentally or physically.
Jess, it most certainly is about killing babies. You can’t make a woman unpregnant before or after viability without killing a baby, therefore there is no way to avoid the fact that it is about killing babies.
I don’t care if it’s not your “priority” in the matter of abortion…it’s like a rapist saying, “It wasn’t about taking away that woman’s rights or raping her. It was about me fulfilling my sexual needs. Using her just happened to be the way I had to get my sexual needs fulfilled. If there was some other way I could get my needs fulfilled, I would.”
She doesn’t abort for the rock concert because as far as I know she doesn’t need one. The fetus isn’t harming her mentally or physically.
So you don’t want women to have abortions they don’t really need? Why doesn’t that apply to a 20 week unborn child?
20 week unborn child:
Rachel @ 5:55, thank you!
Can you imagine killing a baby like this?
I love ya Bethany. Rape is not about sexual needs. It is about violence, control and the degrading of a woman in the most horrific, hateful way possible.
I agree with you, Carla. I was trying to make the point to Jess that a rapist could justify his actions in the same way that Jess justifies women killing their babies so that they can fulfill their need to have a perfect child or so that they can fulfill their need to go see a rock concert.
The excuses Jess made for “the womans’ needs”, were all not truly what abortion is about…the woman has no “need” to kill her unborn child, just as a rapist doesn’t “need” the sex to fulfill himself, in whatever way he desires.
Either one is the same thing…violence, control, and the degradation of a human being. I hope that helps to clarify what I was saying.
It’s also about seeing another human being as an object…
Bethany, 8:33am
How true. I once read an interview with a rapist who was asked how he could do something so despicable to another human being. He replied that he never regarded his victims as human beings, they were objects. This made violating them all the easier.
Carla, 8:27am
An excellent post and very true. Nothing sets my teeth on edge more than the argument that the victim, whenever its a woman, somehow “asked for it”. I always respond that I don’t care if the victim was the Whore of Babylon, a woman has the right to say NO. No one has the right to force sex on anyone.
Bethany and Mary,
I hear ya.
Ok. :)
Carry on!!
Mary, abortion clinics are not regulated. The corrupt politicians and the feminists don’t WANT them regulated because it threatens “choice”.
The “industry” is rife with workers and technicians who don’t know the slightest thing about medicine…yet the feminists and pro-aborts simply go along with it and are nowhere to be found when death’s occur, when horrific conditions are exposed and the doctors lose their licenses or are shut down by the law. The industry’s dirty secrets aren’t so secret anymore, and they are being exposed for what they are.
The motel chain that Tiller had women use for their abortions is no longer doing business with him. He’s probably found another one now who will.
If you read the history behind what it’s taken to FINALLY get Tiller into court, you’d be amazed. He has had political power protecting him all along…thanks to the money he gives his protectors.
He has had political power protecting him all along…thanks to the money he gives his protectors.
SoMG,
You mean he’s been paying you to call him a “hero”? That explains it…
Mike, be careful how you use the word feminist.
Maybe you could answer this question for me. What have you ever done and what do you do now to try and better understand that part of “you” that makes “you” think it is wrong to kill a viable healthy baby?
Truthseeker,
I didn’t think much about the issue for most of my life – up to when I was 37 years old, got a computer, got online, and started arguing my head off.
I was vaguely against abortion, thinking that “If you didn’t want to have a baby you shouldn’t have gotten pregnant.”
Never was involved, personally, no girlfriends got pregnant, etc., no sisters or any relatives close in the family had abortions, etc.
In really thinking about it, though, I do understand the reasons and desires behind why women choose to have abortions. I personally do not need more people on earth, nor do I think we as a race on this planet do. I see no compelling need to forbid them having abortions.
I’m for less suffering, overall, if we boil it down, and to a point in gestation the unborn cannot suffer, have no desire, period. Yes, there is human life there, and a life does end in abortion, but for the most part in abortion there is not “anybody” there. There’s no mental awareness, no sentience, no personality, etc.
Had your or my mother chosen to have an abortion, then there never would have been a “you” or “me” in that sense – that of being aware, having that measure of humanity, etc.
By itself, I do not “like” abortion, but I see it as a much greater wrong to forbid women the legal choice to a point in gestation.
As far as “viable healthy babies” – delivery can often be induced, thus getting around the fact of the unborn being inside the body of a person. It is around viability when I see the developing personhood of the unborn, so the “wrong” of the life ending is incrfeasing there, IMO.
As far as understanding that part of myself – I value a 40 week fetus or 30 week fetus or a 26 week fetus more than I do earlier stages, much more than a zygote or embryo. It makes a difference to me. And there is also the matter of the pregnant woman. She matters to me, too, and I more want her to have the freedom she does, than for every pregnancy to continue, necessarily.
Doug
Hey, Jill, did you notice that the now-defunct (Thank God!) Summit Medical Center of Birhmingham has TWO staffers on trial simultaneously? Dr. Dehenre is on trial for having shot his wife dead, and Nurse King for having nearly killed a woman by giving her RU-486 when she was near-term.
Imagine the national MSM coverage if two staff at a CPC were facing criminal charges at the same time, one for murder and the other for practicing medicine without a license!
Mike 11:08am
Very true. I just wonder how regulation agencies that are supposed to protect the public can instead look the other way where Tiller is concerned.
Doug,
I understand your stance on issues like sentience (although I do not think you or any of the greatest scientific minds really knows where or even what part of the brain sentience comes from), but I wasn’t really looking for your stance on when you think abortion is wrong. Rather I wanted to know what is the part of you that makes you say ” By itself, I do not “like” abortion? Also I would like to know if you have any inclination to acept suffering yourself sometimes in order to relieve the suffering of others.
Hey, Jill, did you notice that the now-defunct (Thank God!) Summit Medical Center of Birhmingham has TWO staffers on trial simultaneously? Dr. Dehenre is on trial for having shot his wife dead, and Nurse King for having nearly killed a woman by giving her RU-486 when she was near-term.
Imagine the national MSM coverage if two staff at a CPC were facing criminal charges at the same time, one for murder and the other for practicing medicine without a license!
No kidding, Christina…what an uproar that would be if it were turned around. Amazing how quiet the MSM is about these kinds of things when it’s convenient for them.
Oh and a LOT of abortion clinics seem to be shutting down in Alabama the last few years… not just the Summit center, there are about 3 others, I believe, in the last few years, with similar problems. I am SO happy every time I hear news that yet another has been shut down. It won’t be too much longer before Alabama is abortion clinic free, if these places keep violating health codes and injuring people, which I suspect they will absolutely continue to do.
Rather I wanted to know what is the part of you that makes you say ” By itself, I do not “like” abortion? Also I would like to know if you have any inclination to acept suffering yourself sometimes in order to relieve the suffering of others.
Truthseeker, abortion has some costs and risks, and there I see pregnancy prevention as preferable. It’s messy, gory, “yucky,” etc., like many surgical procedures.
And sure – if I’d rather cut down on the suffering of others than “scratch my own itch,” so to speak, then I’ll do it or try to. If I’m hungry and have some food, and there’s a starving person, or just somebody who is really, really hungry, I’ll give it up – it doesn’t hurt me that much to wait or to miss a meal.
Doug
*******
And sure – if I’d rather cut down on the suffering of others than “scratch my own itch,” so to speak, then I’ll do it or try to. If I’m hungry and have some food, and there’s a starving person, or just somebody who is really, really hungry, I’ll give it up – it doesn’t hurt me that much to wait or to miss a meal.
Doug
Posted by: Doug at January 31, 2008 8:39 AM
*********
Doug, why do you suppose it is that you are generous instead of greedy? Is it human nature,
electron flow, or the Holy Spirit?
Doug, why do you suppose it is that you are generous instead of greedy? Is it human nature, electron flow, or the Holy Spirit?
Truthseeker, there are times when I’m plenty greedy too. I don’t believe in most supernatural stuff like the Holy Spirit. It’s human nature.
Bethany, 8:13 AM:
How old is the baby that’s being cradled?