Weekend question
CNN recently reported on a new industry: outsourcing pregnancies. It spotlighted an Indian clinic where closely monitored surrogate mothers grow the fertilized egg and sperm of parents from the U.S. and other countries for 9 months in a group home and present them with their newborn.
The positives are that this is a rather inexpensive way for infertile couples to obtain their own healthy biological children, and surrogates make more money for 9 months of labor (pardon the pun) than they would in 15 years.
The negatives are concerns of overall ethics about this way of producing children, whether this exploits poor women, the legalities of change of mind by any of the involved parties, that “wombs for rent” will next become a convenience for the rich who don’t want the bother of pregnancy, and because this is an unregulated industry, its standards will fall.
What is your opinion?
[HT: reader Lyssie]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
The most abhorrent thing about this is how it violates the dignity of women. Women are not rentable incubators. Children are intended to be conceived through the holy marital relations of a couple, not created in a dish and “grown” for money like a tomato. Most of these children die from failure to implant, so we’re also killing 5X more children than are born, all while reducing the most magnificent act in humanity, the creation and nurture of another soul- into a “business” built on the backs of the oppressed.
And how is this not exploitation of poor women? What does it say that we have to find women in other countries to violate themselves as surrogates? A woman has to be desperate to reduce herself to this, and we have a moral obligation to protect the poor and impoverished, not exploit them for our gain.
This should not be allowed by law.
Jacquie,
I hope this isn’t a one time visit. We sure could have used you around here last week. All is good again. My girls Midnite, Amanda, Erin and Heather B all jumped in a saved me.
Don’t forget to send your picture to Bethany to put in our SNAP:who we are album…You can link to it under the guidelines…
These women no longer have to live in poverty as a result of doing this. They can house their whole families, which often times includes the extended family and live much better than they normally would be able to…so I think it’s a good thing for them. I also think it’s good that the couple gets to have their own biological child.
The other aspects of this process make me a little iffy. I don’t like the idea of a “baby making factory” as this essentially is. I agree with Jacqueline where she says it makes the act of conceiving a child into a business.
Are the women wearing the color of the sex of the baby in the picture? I would assume so but I wanted to ask anyway.
They sure don’t make pregnancy look appealing, do they?
Being Catholic, the whole surrogate thing is non-kosher to me anyway.
But even outside of being Catholic, those women look like “cattle”…how demeaning for EVERYONE involved.
We don’t look at having babies as somebodies right.
You aren’t owed children. So this idea that you can get them anyway possible, or you can kill them if you DON’T want them…it’s really twisted.
They are gifts. Not toys.
I agree totally with you mk. The cattle image is appropriate. Being Catholic, this so completely goes against the late Pope JP II’s theology of the body and that the person is a subject and therefore must never be used as an object. (This is his personalistic theology) These women are being used by another to obtain something – a baby. And you’re correct – having a baby is not a RIGHT. Babies are gifts from God which result from the gift of self a man and a woman bestow upon one another in MARRIAGE.
The practise is unethical for both sides and I think many well-to-do women will look on it as a way to avoid the “hassle” and “downtime” associated with pregnancy.
As an aside this is what I suspect happened in the Lori Campbell situation. I haven’t read the article yet (I plan to)but I’m wondering if when she was 22 weeks along – maybe the “hassle” of hospital time with a very premature baby just wasn’t her “cup of tea”.
Unregulated industry in a third-world country? It’s SO ripe for fraud.
“Oh, we accidently made TWO babies from your genetic material. You already paid for one. The one you didn’t contract for will cost you $500.000.00.”
No one would leave one of their babies behind.
Ka-CHING!
FetusFascist: “No one would leave one of their babies behind.”
Or would they?
Also, what happens if the baby is injured during delivery?
Is born and the parents find out later the child has a genetic problem? Will the clinic be sued? The child returned? aka defective product?
Presumably the parents sign away all on all these situations?
At best buy you can buy the extended warranty…I wonder if for an extra 5,000.00 you’ll be able to bring the baby back for a new one, or get the “parts” replaced for free. Of course, you’ll have to pay for your own shipping and handling!
Laura,
Those are great points. I know we disagree about the unborn, but we have always been on the same page about children that make it to birth.
And doesn’t your heart just break that the world for these women is so screwed up that they would resort to this? If find this as sad, in a different way, as our “vulture waits for dinner” picture.
:: waves Hi to Jacqueline ::
Patricia, good questions, and I assume the agreement covers them.
This came up on another abortion board, and like here there were varying opinions.
The women earn more than many would make in 15 years.
— People are simply going to do this, just as some do in the United States.
“There is this one woman who desperately needs a baby and cannot have her own child without the help of a surrogate. And at the other end there is this woman who badly wants to help her [own] family,” Patel said. “If this female wants to help the other one … why not allow that? … It’s not for any bad cause. They’re helping one another to have a new life in this world.”
Hard for me to be against that, for people who want to have kids.
Patel said she carefully chooses which couples to help and which women to hire as surrogates. She only accepts couples with serious fertility issues, like survivors of uterine cancer. The surrogate mothers have to be between 18 and 45, have at least one child of their own, and be in good medical shape.
Sounds like a good deal all the way around to me. However, one can extend it to “baby farms,” where wealthy couples from around the world “opt out” of pregnancy, preferring to have another woman undergo the pregnancy.
Even there, a service is being provided for which payment is made, and I don’t see anything necessarily wrong with it, just as for somebody to be hired to cook or clean.
Doug
Doug,
Hard for me to be against that, for people who want to have kids.
This is where you and I part ways. While we both think “wanting” things is fine, you go the next step and say almost any means of getting what you want is okay.
I want that red convertible Mustang, but stealing it is not the way to go about getting one. I just have to face facts that I am not OWED a Mustang, will probably never HAVE a Mustang and move on…
YEAH!!!!! Rae’s pic is up…
Mary, c’mon…
Carder, Kristen, Hal, Anonymous, Reality, Jacquie,
Val, Laura…what are you waiting for?????!?!?!?!?!?
Who is Rae and where would this pic be displayed?
Women have often been regarded as little more than breed animals.
I find women being paid to willingly gestate more palatable than women being forced to gestate against their will.
Anon,
On the right. Rae is a regular here. She is now prolife, but started out as prochoice when she came here…
Actually, she prefers to call her self anti-stupidity. As in, if you get yourself pregnant your stupidity does not give you permission to end your child’s life.
Her picture and many others can be found by clicking on the Snap: Who we are link found underneath the Guidelines link on the right.
We’d love a picture of you, although your “name” pretty much says we won’t be getting one…lol.
“As in, if you get yourself pregnant your stupidity does not give you permission to end your child’s life.”
That’s a touch on the harsh side for describing my opinion. “Pro-Not-Stupid” really just means knowing the consequences of your actions (ie having unprotected sex…USE BIRTH CONTROL PEOPLE IF YOU DON’T WANT TO GET PREGGERS BUT WANT TO HAVE SEX ANYWAY!) and accepting responsibility in a non-violent manner for said consequences.
I guess a more positive term would be pro-taking-responsibility-for-your-actions.
:-/
Anon,
On the right. Rae is a regular here. She is now prolife, but started out as prochoice when she came here…
Actually, she prefers to call her self anti-stupidity. As in, if you get yourself pregnant your stupidity does not give you permission to end your child’s life.
Her picture and many others can be found by clicking on the Snap: Who we are link found underneath the Guidelines link on the right.
We’d love a picture of you, although your “name” pretty much says we won’t be getting one…lol.
Posted by: mk at January 12, 2008 12:46 PM
…………………………………
No probably not. I doubt I’ll be visiting this blog much. I’ve been house sitting for someone that posts here and using her computer. She has this blog bookmarked and I got curious. When asked, she said that she didn’t mind myself and my partner joining the discussion.
Thank you for the explination MK.
No problem Anon,
Can I ask you whose computer you are on? Would they mind you telling me? I admit I’m curious…
Anon,
Never mind, I see whose it is. I was wondering where they had gone too. Well, you never know, you might get hooked yourself…lol.
She will be back in town tonight or tomorrow. I have a debilitating condition and find just figuring out Sally’s Mac to be tiring.
“Hard for me to be against that, for people who want to have kids.”
MK: This is where you and I part ways. While we both think “wanting” things is fine, you go the next step and say almost any means of getting what you want is okay.
No, MK, I don’t say that. This is “one woman desperately needs a baby” and another is “this woman who baldy wants to help her family.” I see nothing wrong with that.
……
I want that red convertible Mustang, but stealing it is not the way to go about getting one. I just have to face facts that I am not OWED a Mustang, will probably never HAVE a Mustang and move on…
So what? This is not about stealing. No, you are also not “owed” a baby from other people, and neither are women who can’t have kids, but if you could not, it wouldn’t be wrong for you to have a surrogate mother if it was agreeable to all concerned.
If you want a Mustang, pay somebody for one. If you cannot have babies, what’s wrong with paying somebody else to go through the pregnancy?
Doug
Real life is becoming more and more like The Handmaid’s Tale.
I agree with everything MK said, except for the part about being Catholic. : )
This seems terribly exploitative. Kind of like a sweatshop for making babies. What happens if your Indian surrogate dies from pregnancy complications? Does her family get to sue you for wrongful death, the way an employee’s family can sue the employer if she is killed on the job? Do you just give them the $20,000 and call it even? Or do you get a refund?
Sick.
Doug,
I agree with you that if you have the means to pay for services of a surrogate mother, and you cannot carry a child yourself, it’s not a bad thing. One thing, though, that bothers me about this is that these Indian women are being paid far less than a surrogate mother in the US would. If the surrogacy is an agreement between two women of relatively the same economic means, that is one thing. For wealthy American women to get a “bargain” by using impoverished 3rd world country dwellers is wrong, in my opinion.
Oh, no wait, I’m sorry: $20,000 was how much the one couple paid total, for the IVF and everything.
The women only make $6,250. Ugh.
“”As in, if you get yourself pregnant your stupidity does not give you permission to end your child’s life.”
That’s a touch on the harsh side for describing my opinion. “Pro-Not-Stupid” really just means knowing the consequences of your actions (ie having unprotected sex…USE BIRTH CONTROL PEOPLE IF YOU DON’T WANT TO GET PREGGERS BUT WANT TO HAVE SEX ANYWAY!) and accepting responsibility in a non-violent manner for said consequences.
I guess a more positive term would be pro-taking-responsibility-for-your-actions.
:-/”
I’d probably be pro-life if
a) I didn’t believe in bodily autonomy.
b) I thought a fertilized egg was a conscious being that had a central nervous system capable of feeling pain.
c) If the pro-life side didn’t come off as such “omg you whore you’re wearing jeans!” people. Not any of you but you know what I mean, conservative and religious.
“One thing, though, that bothers me about this is that these Indian women are being paid far less than a surrogate mother in the US would.”
The cost of living along with the standard of living is far less in India then the US and the low cost means it would be able to help more women. It shouldn’t be a problem if they are content with their lives in India. I mean, money or a big screen tv, or an SUV doesn’t equal happiness. As long as the hierarchy of needs os meet then I see nothing wrong with their way of life. If it isn’t then their government should do something about it.
P.S. On 20/20 last night India was ranked one of the happiest countries in the world along with Singapore, Iceland and Denmark.
Rae, do you support any type of abortion? Are you for the abolition of abortion.
@Jess: The only time I really support abortion is when the mother’s health or life is significantly at risk (and by health, I mean stuff like cancer, not depression).
I am still squiffy on the rape issue…as I know it’s not the fetus’s fault it’s there in the first place yet I’m not sure why a woman should have to carry to term something that gives her pain and was put there through a cruel, heartless act.
Otherwise, I don’t really approve, no. And I’d rather for a change in the way people treat pregnant women for a way that treats them better and makes it unlikely that a woman would even choose abortion, rather than just flat banning it without committing to the necessary social changes that need to happen.
And for the record, Jess, I’m agnostic, so my reasons generally have nothing to do with God. :)
Jess,
Have you ever been to India? There are billions and billions of people there. Sure, there are billions of wealthy, happy ones, but there are also billions living in the kind of poverty that the poorest of Americans couldn’t even imagine. NO WAY are these peoples’ basic needs being met. Not when people cut off the limbs of their own children so that they will bring in more money begging (I was told not to “fall for” that trick)
I’m pretty sure it’s not the wealthy happy women who are renting out their wombs. This is a population of women who are taking risks with their health and well being and have access to notoriously bad healthcare (http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2006-05/2006-05-03-voa32.cfm)) When they are suffering from life long complications of these pregnancies and births, or perhaps are left unable to carry their own children because of complications, are these American parents going to help them? Of course not. I’m sure these women aren’t even given the basic information about the couples they’re carrying for.
c) If the pro-life side didn’t come off as such “omg you whore you’re wearing jeans!” people. Not any of you but you know what I mean, conservative and religious.
Haha, Jess…I don’t really know ANYONE like that..I mean at all. I’ve only seen people actually act like that on tv. LOL.
@ samantha
I have never been to India so I really don’t know. Have you been to India? I’ve heard those stories before and in other areas also, such as Ireland women maiming their children so they can be better beggars. But what can we do about it? If we boycott India we will only make it worse for them. We have to rely on them to take it upon themselves to help themselves and force their government to make necessary changes.
@Elizabeth
No jeans are immodest. Also layered clothing and necklaces. Body glitter is fine though *head tilt*
I got it off of a Christian youth website.
Oh yeah it’s also immodest to have your breast jiggle when you run. I’m ok though, being flat chested and all.
@ Rae
“Otherwise, I don’t really approve, no. And I’d rather for a change in the way people treat pregnant women for a way that treats them better and makes it unlikely that a woman would even choose abortion, rather than just flat banning it without committing to the necessary social changes that need to happen.”
I agree and hope we can change the way this society not only views pregnancy but sex and love. Until they do abortion should be free and on demand.
One thing, though, that bothers me about this is that these Indian women are being paid far less than a surrogate mother in the US would. If the surrogacy is an agreement between two women of relatively the same economic means, that is one thing. For wealthy American women to get a “bargain” by using impoverished 3rd world country dwellers is wrong, in my opinion.
Samantha, if it cost as much in India as it does here, a lot less women there would be being paid to do it. Is it better for one Indian woman to make 150 times what she’d likely make in a year, or for ten to be paid roughly 15 years’ wages for one pregnancy?
I can see your point, but the cost of living is quite a bit less in India, i.e. a person could be paid a good deal less and still get the same amount of goods and services for it.
Doug
Hey – Jess, good comments. I should have read farther ahead and see that you already replied in much the same vein I did with respect to India.
Doug
@Elizabeth
http://www.therebelution.com/modestysurvey/browse
I know most don’t consider jeans immodest but a few do. 14% believe jeans are immodest even if they aren’t tight. Read the results carefully.
http://www.modest-swimwear.net/index.htm
These aren’t that bad but whenever I can I nix the suit and go wild and free : D
@ Doug
Have you ever heard of Angela’s Ashes? After the author became rich he bought a new house for his mother. When he visited her he found her in the same dirty, small old house. I understand that there are cases of extreme poverty people desperately want to escape but many people are content in the lives they were born in to.
I have been to India, yes. My dad took me there once. He travels there every other year or so for work. Of course I know the cost of living is much lower there, but I also know the healthcare standards are much lower there, and more women die during pregnancy and childbirth there.
I guess that while it looks like a win-win situation, ie the poor women in India get a lot of money and rich women in America get a bargain priced baby, I am concerned about the risks these women are taking. Plus it makes me find this article quite ironic:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article1627008.ece
There are 11 million abandoned children in India, many of them baby girls.
This is the first paragraph:
INDIA is to urge couples in Britain and other western countries to adopt thousands of unwanted children languishing in orphanages throughout the subcontinent and save them from a life of poverty and emotional destitution
Or we could just leave those unwanted children to grow up to become very much wanted uteruses and baby-growers!
Yes, the system in place in India is obviously failing its poorest populations but to me, at least, this is exploitation.
@ samantha
So how can we fix it? Is there anyone there who is working to improve the health care in India? Would the government allow it?
I don’t know! What can we do about all the suffering in the world? Argh, sorry Jess, but I’ve got to go get ready. I have a date tonight (squee!). I’ll think about this, though, and return tomorrow!
Hi guys! So, I had to go to my best friend’s bridal shower today. She’s already married, has been for a few months, but it was kind of a sudden thing and it’s been the first time her family has all been able to get together. Also, she’s not pregnant, just impulsive. But anyhow, she dragged me to this thing with all her doddering old lady baptist relatives and all I can say is she is the only person I love enough to go to something like that for.
Ugh.
She gave me a brownie, though.
*nibbles*
Also, I find a baby farm like this really creepy. There are plenty of born babies and children that need to be adopted in and out of the country.
Erin, I can see the “creepy” factor, too, but they’re not mutually exclusive – some people aren’t going to do anything but have their own biological kid.
I also think, sad to say, that no matter what there will always be some kids in need of adoption.
Have you ever heard of Angela’s Ashes? After the author became rich he bought a new house for his mother. When he visited her he found her in the same dirty, small old house. I understand that there are cases of extreme poverty people desperately want to escape but many people are content in the lives they were born in to.
Hey Jess – haven’t read it, but know of the author. I can certainly see not wanting to change just for change’s sake. I think that Warren Buffett, multi-bilionarie, still lives in the same little old house and drives a fairly cheap car.
If a shortage isn’t felt, then what need for “more” is there? Sometimes I think it may be somewhat akin to a dog that’s lived all it’s life on a chain. It doesn’t know what the freedom outside of that is really like, so it doesn’t suffer as it would had the freedom been there, then been taken away.
I’d think that TV and movies, etc., as well as modern communication in general would lessen this – people seeing how others live, more than they used to.
I love your picture, too – you’ve got a sesnse of humor!
Doug
There are 11 million abandoned children in India, many of them baby girls.
Wow. [gulp] Samantha, that does put it in perspective.
……
What can we do about all the suffering in the world?
Yeah. To me the suffering is the key, including in the abortion debate. I’m for the least suffering, which IMO comes from allowing the woman to freely continue or end pregnancies, at least to viability.
As for the suffering in the whole world – wow again, I’m pretty pessimistic there. Looking at China and India, which together have ten times the people of the US, I just have to shake my head at things.
Worse yet is the Sudan, Darfur, and some other places in Africa, etc.
Doug
Anon,
She will be back in town tonight or tomorrow. I have a debilitating condition and find just figuring out Sally’s Mac to be tiring.
I’m sorry to hear that. But I hope that when you get back to your own computer, you’ll continue to visit us. We’ve enjoyed having you…and be sure to tell her that we missed her.
Doug,
“this woman who baldy wants to help her family.”
Honestly, I think they are wearing those caps to remain infection free and not because they are hairless.
Yes, the system in place in India is obviously failing its poorest populations but to me, at least, this is exploitation.
Samantha, the more I think about it the more I agree with you, here. At least by circumstance and the economic inequalities, I guess I’d say they are somewhat forced or at least strongly motivated into it.
Putting myself in the place of a young woman, (a stretch, I know), other than the huge disparity in pay, would I want to do that? Heck no. So, I wouldn’t deny them the opportunity, but do feel it’s too bad the way things are, including the fact that not everybody who wants kids can have them themselves – whew, talk about suffering….
Indeed, to say the least, the poorest in India… [shudder]
A few years back I read that if all the wealth in the world were shared equally, the average family would only have a tarpaper shack with one 40 watt lightbulb in it. We take so much for granted while many on earth have virtually nothing.
Doug
Doug,
If you want a Mustang, pay somebody for one. If you cannot have babies, what’s wrong with paying somebody else to go through the pregnancy?
How do you feel about people selling their organs. I mean if someone wants/needs one, and someone whose family is starving to death, do you think it is morally right to swap money for a kidney?
Cuz that’s what this reminds me of. One group of people taking advantage of another group of peoples desparation…
Heaven help the person that comes between me and my jeans…
I’m okay with this. As long as these women are doing it willingly, I don’t see much of a problem with it.
Doug,
some people aren’t going to do anything but have their own biological kid.
Well by all means if that’s what some people want they surely they must have it, no matter who gets exploited. Give them what they want, eh?
Sometimes I think it may be somewhat akin to a dog that’s lived all it’s life on a chain. It doesn’t know what the freedom outside of that is really like, so it doesn’t suffer as it would had the freedom been there, then been taken away.
Sounds like something Charles Manson said…he doesn’t want to get paroled cuz he wouldn’t begin to know how to live on the outside…
hehehehe, totally of topic, but if you want a good laugh, watch this : :-)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=tSpr-wfM50w
“this woman who baldy wants to help her family.”
Honestly, I think they are wearing those caps to remain infection free and not because they are hairless.
Posted by: mk at January 12, 2008 7:23 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I just peed a little.
TMI? (LOL!)
Haha, jess….Really? so like..they’re against the laws of gravity? Cause no matter how many sports bra’s I would wear..they’d still jiggle when I ran. Damn..guess that means I’m a sinner.
BTW, whenever I look at your pic in the who’s who..I chuckle because your expression is priceless.
Laura,
I’m tellin’ ya, if you ever come over to the prolife side we could take our show on the road…
Oh and Laura,
I’ll spring for the depends.
” Cause no matter how many sports bra’s I would wear..they’d still jiggle when I ran. Damn..guess that means I’m a sinner.”
@Elizabeth: Of course you’re a sinner! You’re a woman! Woman = Eve! Eve = SINNER!!! So therefore, women are inherently sinful, and our jiggly nunga-nungas PROVE IT! :-p
Haha. Nunga-nungas. That’s a new one. I think that’s what I’ll call them from now on. :)
“this woman who baldy wants to help her family.”
MK: Honestly, I think they are wearing those caps to remain infection free and not because they are hairless.
Ha – wascally wabbit.
“some people aren’t going to do anything but have their own biological kid.”
Well by all means if that’s what some people want they surely they must have it, no matter who gets exploited. Give them what they want, eh?
MK, it’s an argument or not if it’s really “exploitation.” A bricklayer in India makes a lot less than one in the US, and we already have surrogate mothers in the US.
And yes – some people want a child with their genes.
I’M BAAAAAAAACCCCCCKKKK!!
NUNGA-NUNGAS!!!! I love my jiggly nunga-nungas….are women not supposed to run, because it’s sinful? Forget that, after this holiday season I have a lot more jiggle EVERYWHERE that can only be gotten rid of through running. And I guess they’ll have to say that walking is immodest too….because I jiggle when I WALK. Us women can’t win.
Oh, and MK….I’m with you on the jeans topic…you’d have to pry my jeans from my cold, dead thighs. If any fundie wanted me to switch my jeans to long, ankle-length skirts, you’d have one very unhappy and potentially maimed fundie on your hands…. :D
MK: How do you feel about people selling their organs. I mean if someone wants/needs one, and someone whose family is starving to death, do you think it is morally right to swap money for a kidney?
I have more “yuck” factor with this than with surrogate mothers, but still, yes – who are we to tell somebody not to sell a kidney, or to give one away, for that matter?
……
Cuz that’s what this reminds me of. One group of people taking advantage of another group of peoples desparation…
Well, they are relatively “desperate,” yes, but that’s compared to us. I imagine those women see it greatly to their advantage, though. Again, if this is paying a person what they’d normally have to work for 15 years for, just how is that really “taking advantage”?
Economies around the world are not the same. There are people working in oilfields, hospitals, factories, McDonald’s, etc., all around the world that make far less that what an American would make doing the same job here.
Doug
Doug,
Normally, your comments are some of the most rational on this site. But in this case, I’d say you haven’t done your homework.
Suggested reading/watching list:
The Corporation (film)
Almost anything by Vandana Shiva (books, articles)
Ponting, Clive: A Green HIstory of the World: The Environment and the Collapse of Great Civilizations. (books, articles)
Makhijani, Arjun. Ecology and Genetics (Pulitzer nominee) (books, articles)
The “Third” World didn’t get to be the third world on its own. It was mainly due to the colonialism of the “first” world. These women are an example of how the power structure put in place then continues in such exploitation. Most examples of this continued exploitation aren’t so blatant. For example, those Indian or Chinese sewn jeans discussed above (or other articles of clothing) many wear are another – when Americans purchase “cheap” clothing beyond the needs of use, exploitation results.
This list isn’t the place to allow full development of this argument, but I would urge all of you to do some research into how American patterns of overconsumption are the cause of exploitation of these women.
Doug,
I’ve been reading CSLewis during my hour in the chapel for the last month or so…
Today, I read this:
“Every sane and civilized man must have some set of principles by which he chooses to reject some of his desires and to permit others”
Doug,
For some reason the rest of my post disappeared…
Some men will follow societal norms, some will follow their own desires and still others will follow their religion. This is where they will derive their set of principles.
I think the difference between you and me, is that in following societal norms, or following you own desires (as you do) you focus on a man’s actions.
But the Christian focuses not on what the man does, but on who the man is…
Okay Doug,
There are no right answers and no wrong answers. There are only YOUR answers. They can be as long or short, as descriptive or plain, as simple or complicated as you like…
First question.
You’re walking down a road. Describe your road to me…
AH! It’s the game again!
I miss the game…
Ooh this is going to be fun. :D It’s been a while since we played this game before!
Yeah,
Somehow Doug missed it last time around. Hal never played. Ya think Laura is up for it?
Hey,
71 people have voted and Hillary and Obama are doing the worst…where’s all the pro choicers? You guys gotta vote so the results aren’t skewed…
Why do you suppose no one “dislikes” Thompson or Edwards?
Yeah,
Lyssie’s pic is up! C’mon everybody else, jump in. The water’s fine! Nobody’s gonna bite!
@MK: It’s probably because they are so bland that you can’t really dislike them as they don’t do diddly squat?
I voted for one Democrat and one Republican as per the instructions.
I should have voted two Republicans I guess.
(Huckabee and Romney…*vomit*)
Rae,
I am so torn between all of them…I don’t care for Romney at all…but I don’t hate huckabee. Other than his ears, why don’t you like him?
what is the game? I’m not going to be around much for the next few days, does it take a lot of time?
MK,
Where are these pictures? How do I conjure them up?
Also, I hoped you gave Rae a big hug from all of us when you saw her.
Mary,
Go to the right of the screen and find the link under the guidelines that says Snap: who we are…many of us have posted our pics. We’d love yours. It makes it all so much more real…
Hal,
Don’t you remember in early summer? when Jill went away for a week and we all took that “test”…you’re walking down a road. Describe the road?
MK,
I’m embarassed but I can’t find guidlines. Please guide.
MK,
I found it! What a collection of very nice looking people. You men are goof lookinh! Well, heck I ain’t dead yet!
I already knew the ladies were all beautiful.
Sure Mary,
Go to the right of the page…up at the top.
You’ll see the quote of the day.
Underneath that you’ll see the poll.
Then the Moderators.
Then the Proofreader square.
Then a discussion box.
In the discussion box it says:
Guidelines
Snap: who we are
Click on that…
Mary,
Now it’s your turn…send Bethany a picture and she’ll put it up…Do you have photobucket or one of those?
And is Will Duffy not the most beautiful creature you’ve ever laid eyes on…yowzer! I ain’t dead either!
OH MY GOODNESS!! Talk about typos. I meant you guys are all good looking, not goof looking! I KNOW you will never let me live that one down!!
MK, 5:59PM
Yesssss!!! However I have frying pans older than him so I’ll just agree that we ain’t dead yet! Doug reminds me of a young James Cagney.
Ah Mar,
We just figured you got a look at Will and got all tongue tied…lol.
I have no problem with women choosing to be surrogates for money. As long as no one coerces them.
Question for all you who think this should be illegal: How should we punish people who offer the service on the black market?
SoMG,
Is it just me, or are you obsessed with punishment?
Have a little sadism to go with that sociopathy?
Sometimes it isn’t about punishment. Sometimes is just about how pathetic a situation is…
Well you’re the Catholic. (Aren’t Catholics all obsessed with punishment?)
since SoMG’s answers our questions, we should answer his….
SoMG, the punishment should be minor for this, no reason for it to be severe.
He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High
and abides in the shade of the almighty
says to the Lord: “My refuge,
my stronhold, in whom I trust!”
It is he who will free you from the snare
of the fowler who seeks to destroy you;
he will conceal you with his pinions
and under his wings you will find refuge.
You will not fear the terror of the night
nor the arrow that flies by day,
nor the plague that prowls in the darkness
not the scourge that lays waste at noon.
A thousand may fall at your side,
ten thousand fall at your right,
you, it will never approach;
his faithfulness is buckler and shield.
Your eyes have only to look
to see how the wicked are repaid,
you have said: “Lord, my refuge!”
and have made the Most High yoor dwelling.
Upon you no evil shall fall,
no plague approach where you dwell.
For you has he commanded his angels,
to keep you in all your ways.
Psalm 91: 1-11
jasper, I had a “quote of the day” going around via email and I chnaged it to “Word of the Day” and liked it better that way. Just wanted to mention it in case you liked it and wanted to use it.
The “Scream” video should be up on youtube sometime tomorrow.
Or rather, later today.
It’s great!
SoMG,
Well you’re the Catholic. (Aren’t Catholics all obsessed with punishment?)
No, SoMG, we are obsessed with forgiveness. Something that comes about when a person is “sorry for something they have done.
It has to do with shame, a conscience, guilt, not wishing to cause harm, caring about someone besides yourself…Surely you’ve heard of people regretting things that they’ve done?
Truthseeker,
Another great Psalm…
Under his wings…I love that image.
One of my favorite psalms, Truthseeker. Thank you!
@ Rae
Another Angus Thongs and Full Frontal Snogging fan?
Mary: Doug reminds me of a young James Cagney.
Ha! Thank you (I think), Mary. Put a beard on, with plenty of salt in with the pepper, now, and also put on 40 lbs. (groan) and there I am.
I too like Will’s picture. One of my cousins is married to a guy remarkably similar. Just looking at that face, you can tell he’s a good guy, just as with Dan McConchie.
you’d have to pry my jeans from my cold, dead thighs
:: laughing :: Lyssie, you rock.
Doug
Hi Phylosopher,
I certainly agree that the “first world,” and/or imperialist nations have some guilt, here, but given that things are the way they are, I still don’t see it as a really “bad’ Deal for the surrogate mothers at this point. As “good” a standard of living as I have, there are people in the world who would pity me.
……
The “Third” World didn’t get to be the third world on its own. It was mainly due to the colonialism of the “first” world. These women are an example of how the power structure put in place then continues in such exploitation. Most examples of this continued exploitation aren’t so blatant. For example, those Indian or Chinese sewn jeans discussed above (or other articles of clothing) many wear are another – when Americans purchase “cheap” clothing beyond the needs of use, exploitation results.
This list isn’t the place to allow full development of this argument, but I would urge all of you to do some research into how American patterns of overconsumption are the cause of exploitation of these women.
Agreed as well, to a large extent. In somewhat the same vein – the supply and shortages of drinking water or just plain water, period, in many parts of the world is becoming bigger and bigger news all the time. IMO this is an enormous deal, going forward in time.
The US and some other countries “import” incredible amounts of water via meat, grains, goods, etc., i.e. the water required to raise a steer, etc., is vast.
Doug
“Every sane and civilized man must have some set of principles by which he chooses to reject some of his desires and to permit others”
MK, everybody does that anyway. Heck, I could eat a whole gallon of ice cream, probably.
……
Some men will follow societal norms, some will follow their own desires and still others will follow their religion. This is where they will derive their set of principles.
Religion or not will apply to people, but to some extent we all follow are own desires (as opposed to society, religious teachings, etc.) anyway.
……
I think the difference between you and me, is that in following societal norms, or following you own desires (as you do) you focus on a man’s actions. But the Christian focuses not on what the man does, but on who the man is…
Well, aren’t we already talking about what people do, here – continue or end pregnancies – rather than “who they are”?
It’s still all the same deal – whether we ascribe opinions to religion or not, it all boils down to desire.
MK: Lyssie’s pic is up!
I tink I luff her.
You’re walking down a road. Describe your road to me…
MK, this is gonna have to be the abridged version. Jill might not have enough bandwidth….
Two-lane blacktop, winding through a four-mile valley, alongside a big creek or small river, take your pick. I used to run this road; my dad’s lane intersects it; to the small town at the end of it and back I’d go, dreaming of track-team glory.
The road goes past the house where the boy had the dog. The dog on the chain, that the boy loved some of the time. Past the tattered plastic bag caught in tree branches. Past the place where a piece of radiator hose was lying on the pavement. Didn’t see that hose until the last second.
Times like that can make you set personal records for highjump and longjump at the same time, your primal brain screaming, “Snake!”
Past the hardworking fields, producing hay and grain, with hardworking people tending them. My brothers and I used to ride our bikes here. A county line is crossed along the way, and the pavement becomes a little different.
The red hawk soars along this road, sometimes taking off from the big old tree at our neighbor’s house. They had four sons. One became a bum, on a military man, one a preacher, and one dated my sister – don’t know where he ended up.
It’s fairly flat, overall, though there are a couple little hills that you’ll notice if you’re going under your own power. You run past mailboxes with ancient names on them, and the town at the end has an ancient name, “Malvern.”
Now, Doug….you’re making me blush. :D
*turns the brightest beet red*
@Jess: I am a HUGE “Angus, Thongs, and Full-Frontal Snogging” fan. :D
@MK: I don’t like Huckabee because a) He claims to be something he’s not…a conservative when he clearly isn’t as he raised Arkansas’ state spending 60% b) He overemphasizes his religion, which does *not* fly with me as I feel he’s exploiting his faith and the faith of evangelicals in order to get elected and c) his comments about AIDS in 1992 (which he idiotically refuses to retract) and his comments about women being subservient to their husbands.
Doug,
It’s still all the same deal – whether we ascribe opinions to religion or not, it all boils down to desire.
No, it isn’t the same deal at all. We can overlook what someone has done, because we are interested in WHO they are…not what they are doing. This is what we mean when we say “we want to change people’s hearts”…
Changing the way you look at this issue will ultimately change who you are inside. That’s the fundamental difference.
Look, a man can practice the virtues but that doesn’t necessarily make him virtuous.
Here is what my dear friend CS Lewis has to say:
If anyone thinks that Christians regard unchastity as the supreme vice, he is quite wrong. The sins of the flesh are bad, but they are the least bad of all sins. All the worst pleasures are purely spiritual: the pleasure of putting other people in the wrong, of bossing and patronizing and spoiling sport, and back biting, the pleasures of power and hatred. For there are 2 things inside me, competing with the human self which I must try to become. They are the animal self, and the diabolical self. The diabolical self is the worse of the two. That is why a cold, self righteous prig who goies regularly to church may be far nearer to hell than a prostitute. But of course, it is better to be neither…
The point is that while the prostitute may DO something “bad”, this does not mean that she IS bad. Conversely, just because the Christian DOES something good, this does not mean that he IS good.
Rae,
Yes I could see that, although I don’t know about the aids thing…what was that?
Doug,
Yes I meant it as a compliment. My mother’s cousin also looked like Cagney and I always thought, and so did many ladies, that he was a ruggedly handsome man.
You’re walking down a road. Describe your road to me…
It’s a gravel road with potholes that my whole car fits in. Sugar cane fields give way to guava forests as I make my trek towards the ocean. The gravel road gives way to lava rock and the sunset gives way to night. The sky to the east is aglow red and orange from the volcano up the mountain. The road is now completely gone, replaced with lava rocks the size of trucks. I abandon my car and take out my machette and cut my way through bushes and trees. Now theres nowhere left to go at a cliff overlooking the ocean. With the waves crashing over and over and over, it’s like being back in my mother’s bosom.
Truthseeker,
That was awesome…
Doug,
I got yours too.
I’ll ask the next question on the newest thread after Jill posts today. I’m saving your answers and will post them as one post when we’re done…
Anyone else that hasn’t done this before is welcome to jump in now…
No, it isn’t the same deal at all. We can overlook what someone has done, because we are interested in WHO they are…not what they are doing. This is what we mean when we say “we want to change people’s hearts”…
Okay, MK, it’s a different deal, there, indeed. Not the usual discussion.
……
Changing the way you look at this issue will ultimately change who you are inside. That’s the fundamental difference.
I’d say maybe, maybe not.
Doug,
Of course you’d say maybe/maybe not…otherwise there wouldn’t be a “fundamental difference”…there would be agreement! lol
Well, MK, I meant that changing the way one looks at the issue doesn’t necessarily change “who you are inside.”
Doug,
Well, MK, I meant that changing the way one looks at the issue doesn’t necessarily change “who you are inside.”
Yes, Doug, I know that that is what you are saying…and THAT IS the fundamental difference between us and you.
Hey MK!! *hug*
Sup? :P
Yes, Doug, I know that that is what you are saying…and THAT IS the fundamental difference between us and you.
I don’t know how “fundamental” a difference it is.
Seems to me you’re saying it has to be one way, and I’m saying it can be several ways.