Naming France’s fetuses
AFP reports the French Supreme Court has ruled that parents have the right to name their miscarried or stillborn baby no matter what gestational age.
Before 3 mothers of earlier-term babies filed the winning lawsuit, French officials “insisted,” according to the story, that preborns be 22-weeks-old or 1.1 pounds to merit a name.
The ruling will also allow mothers to bury their babies rather than be forced to let hospitals incinerate them and let moms take maternity leave….
Abortion proponents are afraid the ruling may “raise[] potential conflicts about abortion and embryo research,” according to AFP.
The American feminist Women’s e-news fears, “[t]he ruling raises questions on the issue of ‘personhood’ for unborn fetuses and provides anti-choice forces a platform to challenge French laws on birth control and abortion.”
Yes, that certainly does reveal yet another abortion inconsistency. It’s getting harder and harder to carve out (pardon the pun) that abortion nonperson nook.
Reader Sandy is an expert on miscarriage law and reported in an email of her group’s failed attempt to pass a federal law that would simply mandate mothers be given disposal choice of their babies after a D&C or miscarriage. Wrote Sandy:
So much for women’s “choice” when it comes to giving grieving women “choices” how to respectfully bury or bless their much wanted babies. It is their body, their baby; it should be their “choice.”
I am so tired of the pro-abort agenda dictating to women and their families the right to what, why, when, where, and how based on their whacked sense of entitlement about pregnancy loss. They continue to throw women under the bus to save their “choice.”
[HT: LifeSiteNews.com via moderator Bethany; photos are of Bethany’s 6-week-old miscarried baby, who she and her husband named Blessing.]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
What’s miscarriage law? I’ve never heard of it.
Also from the AFP report:
Chantal Birman, deputy president of a pro-abortion and contraception group called ANCIC, said the court’s determination would provide a powerful emotional argument for opponents of abortion, as it implied that a foetus or an embryo of any stage of development had the right to a name.
“A foetus is only viable after 26 weeks,” said Birman, a midwife by training. “You have to take the timetable of pregnancy into account.”
“The decision “will help a rollback (on abortion rights) that has been taking place in Europe for the last few months,” Birman told AFP, pointing to changes in Lithuania, the Netherlands, Poland and Spain.
Yahoo!
What an incredible photo, that cute little baby with those little arms… Bethany, your little Blessing must be smiling down on you and your family right now! God Bless you!
Why couldn’t the women take them home? i think a woman should be able to do whatever she wants with a miscarriage or stillbirth and yes they should get time off from work to grieve and recover.
Jill,
I find it so disturbing and hurtful that Women’s e-news would actually put this story under the heading:
More News to Jeer This Week:
I would think any pro-choice organization would be rejoicing in the fact that women are now given more control and choices over their “fetuses”.
Pro-choicers are always blathering about ways the two sides should compromise. Here is a perfect example of how they could support a piece of legislation that would comfort women, help them grieve and bring closure to a very sorrowful situation.
Erin, you named your aborted fetus. Do you support this ruling?
Agreed, Jess.
Bethany, it is always so wonderful to see your baby!
Thank you for sharing Blessing in this way.
Bethany,
Thanks for sharing your photos on this site. What a tiny little miracle.
Parents have a “right” to name a baby anyway don’t they? Or is this for birth and death certificates?
“More News to Jeer This Week:”
Right it is a good thing they get to name their children. I mean honestly women deal with miscarriages and stillbirths their own way, that’s their right. I don’t care if they want to erect a monument in their front yard for a three week old miscarriage it came from their body, they can do whatever they want with it’s remains. I mean since it obviously isn’t capable of thinking for itself because it’s a fetus and at that a deceased fetus I think the mother should decide what to do with it.
If doctors don’t let them choose what to do with their child when it’s dead then they might not let the woman decide what to do with it when it’s alive.
You see PIP I go both ways : )
“[t]he ruling raises questions on the issue of ‘personhood’ for unborn fetuses and provides anti-choice forces a platform to challenge French laws on birth control and abortion.”
No because it’s a part of the woman’s body and she can do with it what she pleases be it name it or not.
My friend has a name for her period. And she has every right to call it whatever she wants. That doesn’t mean she thinks it should have special rights.
I was so excited to hear of this ruling the other day…I have gotten so many emails (over the last year) from women who were so discouraged and grieved because the doctors will not let them take their baby’s remains home after D & C from their miscarriages…some of them begged to take them, and still were not given what should have belonged to them to do with as they wished.
They were not able to bury their child, and there was no one who acknowledged what they lost. This has caused so much intense grief and suffering for women everywhere.
This ruling has given us hope that this could happen in America too…women could have their baby’s acknowledged and their pain and suffering eased by having the closure of being able to give their baby a proper burial and a legal NAME.
These women deserve better than for their babies to be disposed of like medical waste!
How is Blessing part of Bethany’s body?
My friend has a name for her period. And she has every right to call it whatever she wants. That doesn’t mean she thinks it should have special rights.
Jess, the two are not comparable by any stretch of the imagination.
Well, Blessing was attached to her body, living inside of her, eating what she ate, growing. Then Blessing passed away. Because Blessing passed away inside of Bethany she should have the final say in what happens to her remains.
Bethany, I know they aren’t the same thing I’m just saying it’s inside of a persons body it’s their own.
P.S. I think Blessing is beautiful.
Thank you, Jess.
What’s miscarriage law? I’ve never heard of it.
Posted by: Hieronymous at February 18, 2008 2:32 PM
Hieronymous,
Thanks in part to the pro-abort agenda, women who miscarry a baby in the US under 20 weeks, or under a certain weight (which varies state by state) have no right to legally name their baby or recieve a birth or death certificate. The CDC does not even track the number of misscarried babies. They are never reported to anyone.
In the majority of states, medical facilities are not required to even disclose to a woman what happens to their babies after medical intervention ie, D&C.
These babies are thrown away as medical waste and incinerated with organs, limbs and biohazard without parental knowlege or consent.
Our bill was just asking that women be told upon diagnosis of miscarriage what their legal options for burial are so they can best decide how to handle their babies remains. Women have a right to know what to do if they miscarry at home. They have a right to know what the hospital will do with the their babies after a D&C or induction.
They have a right to choose the disposition of their baby.
Fortunately, I was able to bury Blessing, but only because I miscarried naturally at home. I had the chance to D & C but wouldn’t because I knew the risks.
Many other women, sadly, do not get that chance to see their child and have that closure of burying the child and saying goodbye.
Amen, Sandy.
Jess, you go both ways? ;)
I think that it really stinks that women can’t do what they want with their miscarried babies, HUMAN, while when a pet dies, there are no restrictions. How sad is that?
My, “OMG a pinhole leak will flood Holland” stance.
Sandy 3:55,
The CDC does not even track the number of misscarried babies. They are never reported to anyone.
Is this fact true for all miscarriages or just those under 20 weeks?
Honestly these people are so paranoid. “We can’t respect the life and feelings of both mother and unborn baby, it may make us weak for a surprise attack from those evil prolifers.”
Jesus. We are not guerrillas. But we do love babies :)
Hi Janet,
Technically speaking a baby who dies at 20 weeks gestation or over is considered a stillborn. Babies who die under 20 weeks or by a certain weight are called miscarried babies. This may vary a bit state by state, but is the general rule.
Miscarriages are difficult to track since many happen in homes and go unreported. Many women miscarry and may not know they did thinking it was just a heavy period.
No medical facility is ever required to report a miscarriage under their knowledge. They do record and report all stillborns.
Due to a string of very awful pregnancy complications in September 2006, I gave birth to my son, Isaac at 18weeks gestation. I was told that if he were 20+weeks, the state of Georgia would issue both a birth and a death certificate. But since Isaac was 18weeks, I would receive neither, even if he was born alive and breathing. He would receive nothing b/c he was not legally a “person” according to the state.
This made me incredibly angry, and caused even more grief than I was already feeling. Hard to explain unless you’ve been through it, but it was really hurtful to hear that the state considered my child to be a “non-person”.
The hospital never tried to prevent me from having custody / control of my son’s remains, though. That’s insanity!!! They freely allowed me to release his body to the funeral home, who came the next day to pick him up and prepare him for the funeral service and burial.
If the hospital had tried to prevent me from having my son’s body I probably would have hurt someone.
The really interesting part of that is when you consider that the state of Georgia allows abortions on demand up to 26weeks, 6days gestation.
I wonder if the state issues birth and death certificates to each of those babies. Since they are legal “persons” in the state of Georgia?
Hi Kristi,
I am so glad you had the opportunity to have a service and burial for Isaac. Unfortunately, many times hospitals don’t even offer this as an option for families and dispose of the baby before the mother even thinks to ask what to do.
As you know, when you go through a sitation like you did, you don’t even know what you don’t know, so it becomes difficult to ask the right questions at the right times.
Kristi,
I am so sorry.
People can be so heartless.
And Bethany, I think I said it before, but thank you for sharing Blessing with us. She is beautiful. You are very courageous to share those photos. I have pictures of my Isaac from after he was born, and it’s hard for me to share them with some people.
Sandy, very true. You’re head is absolutely spinning and making even a simple decision is impossible. Fortunately the people at the hospital were actually pretty caring in this respect. I guess I got lucky. They took a photograph for me and discussed with us our options for how to handle his body.
We refused an autopsy but were able to send the umbilical chord and placenta down to pathology for testing. And the hospital held his body for us until we were ready for the funeral home to pick him up.
At the time I was terrified someone was going to “lose” him by mistake. Like I said, your brain goes wild.
thank you, Anon.
Kristi, thank you so much for the kind words.
I am so very sorry for your loss.
I agree with you, too…the fact that some hospitals will do such a thing to grieving mothers IS insanity. And heartbreaking.
Hi Kristi,
I recently met a woman who was pregnant with twins. She lost her daughter I believe at 17 weeks. The hospital took her baby and handled the remains. In my state all babies whether intentionally aborted or spontaneously miscarried must be cremated or buried. Many hospitals will do a mass cremation and then hold services once or twice a year to honor and memorialize the babies. They are buried together at specified sites in cemetaries around the area.
She then lost her son at 23 weeks and by law was requird to bury him. She was devestated that her daughter did not get a family burial as her son did. She didn’t even know to ask and no one informed her she had every right to take her 17 week old little girl to bury her too.
Sandy, that is the most awful thing I’ve ever heard! What state does she live in?
Isaac is buried in a cemetary close to our home with other relatives. We go visit his grave often. I would be FURIOUS if I didn’t get a choice as to where he was buried! And she couldn’t even have a private funeral service? How is that LEGAL?!?!?!?!?
OH, THE OUTRAGE!!!
Kristi,
“He would receive nothing b/c he was not legally a “person” according to the state.”
Sick. Rest assured, you have a little treasure waiting for you in heaven. God love you.
awful, awful, awful. I still can’t get over that.
Thank you Bobby, that warms my heart. I long for the day when I will finally get to meet him whole and tell him how much I love him.
Another state that I believe got the law passed was Kansas. I spoke to the woman who initiated the bill. She was 16-18 weeks pregnant and found out her baby had died. Her dr. told her they needed to do a D&E. Never gave her the option of a natural induction. She didn’t even know to ask. A week after the procedure she realized she didn’t know what happened to her baby. She called her dr. and she wouldn’t tell her. She called the hospital and a nurse told her she didn’t even want to know. She finally got the answers she needed and found out her baby was thrown away with the medical waste.
Ugh Sandy that makes me sick.
disgusting.
Sandy 4:42,
Thanks for the clarification on miscarriage and stillbirth. I didn’t know that!
ya know, Sandy …. sounds like a negligent dr to me … why would he not even inform her of the option to induce labor/delivery, when that is clearly safer for the woman than D&E? Seems like the least aggressive method would have been preferable to the doctor if he was truly concerned for the health of his patient.
IF IF IF there was some remote medical reason that meant labor / delivery was risky, then that would be different. But the child has already died naturally, why the D&E?!?!
In any case I’m glad your friend was able to get a tiny bit of vindication in the passage of that law. I would be forever angry at that doctor if that had happened to me!!!!!
Dear Kristi,
Thank you for sharing your story. How heartbreaking and frustrating!!
Hieronymous,
Thanks in part to the pro-abort agenda, women who miscarry a baby in the US under 20 weeks, or under a certain weight (which varies state by state) have no right to legally name their baby or recieve a birth or death certificate. The CDC does not even track the number of misscarried babies. They are never reported to anyone.
In the majority of states, medical facilities are not required to even disclose to a woman what happens to their babies after medical intervention ie, D&C.
These babies are thrown away as medical waste and incinerated with organs, limbs and biohazard without parental knowlege or consent.
Posted by: Sandy at February 18, 2008 3:55 PM
Hi Sandy, thanks for your answer.
I disagree, however, that this is all about a pro-choice agenda. I imagine that these rules have been in place long before Roe v. Wade, and have more to do with the legal ramifications of “personhood”; i.e., estates, inheritance, claiming dependents for tax purposes, etc. I’m sure that there is a lot more to it that I’m not thinking of.
I’m honestly not trying to sound callous, but it makes sense for the state to draw a line and refuse to issue birth/death certificates in that regard. Also, women are not legally prevented from naming their miscarried fetuses. It’s just that it isn’t recognized by the state.
However, I don’t think women should be denied the right to right to direct the disposition of the remains.
Thanks Carla. It is true, there is nothing more hurtful for a grieving mother to hear then to tell her her child is not a person. Well, REEEEALLY, then, WHY DO I FEEL HORRIBLE LIKE SOMEONE I LOVE JUST DIED?
Just another way they can make it seem like the woman is crazy. Hmm, you had an abortion and regret it? Well then you must’ve been nuts to start with, ’cause there’s no such thing as PASS.
You had a late 2nd trimester “miscarriage”? Don’t be sad, it wasn’t a PERSON!!! What are you, crazy?
All these poor crazy women running around grieving for their children. Don’t they know it’s just a fetus?
I have a question for the Catholics on the board, if you don’t mind answering.
Several years ago, a good friend of mine miscarried at 12 weeks. I think the fetus was about 10 or 11 weeks when it died. She had the remains buried, but her priest refused to conduct a funeral ceremony or last rites or anything like that. I didn’t want to press her about it, because the topic really upset her, but can anyone explain why? She said it had something to do with Catholic doctrine, but I didn’t really understand her explanation.
Hmm, good question. I’m not Catholic so I dunno. But I’d be very interested in the answer to this one.
Hi Hieronymous. I’m not sure why he didn’t do the funeral, but last rites are only for the living. This website http://www.cuf.org/Faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=264 says that a priest may perform a funeral for a miscarried baby, and it quotes canon law and the Catechism. But last rites are only for the living.
Also, make sure your friend knows about paragraph 1261 in the catechism http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm . It is quite reassuring. God love you.
Hi Sandy, thanks for your answer.
I disagree, however, that this is all about a pro-choice agenda. I imagine that these rules have been in place long before Roe v. Wade, and have more to do with the legal ramifications of “personhood”; i.e., estates, inheritance, claiming dependents for tax purposes, etc. I’m sure that there is a lot more to it that I’m not thinking of.
I’m honestly not trying to sound callous, but it makes sense for the state to draw a line and refuse to issue birth/death certificates in that regard. Also, women are not legally prevented from naming their miscarried fetuses. It’s just that it isn’t recognized by the state.
However, I don’t think women should be denied the right to right to direct the disposition of the remains.
Posted by: Hieronymous at February 18, 2008 5:38 PM
Hieronymous,
I said it was thanks in part to the pro-choice agenda. Some of these laws may have been implemented prior to roe v wade, but some of these laws came about because of the legalization of abortion and viability laws etc…
Also, more to the point and as proven in Jill’s article (and from my own personal experience in trying to pass a similar but not as an agressive law), the pro-choice movement has purposely gotten in the way to hinder our efforts.
I participated in a pregnancy loss documentary a couple years ago with a pro-choice feminist who firmly believes that the pro-choice movement has done nothing but ignore the issue of miscarriage and stillborn and has absolutely neglected this issue on purpose. Just as it states in this article, the pro-choice movement looks at laws such as these as threatening their choice.
It is quite a hypocriticl stance.
Pro-choice women experience pregnancy loss too. This is a woman’s issue that effects everyone.
Gotta run for awhile, be back later!
Thanks Bobby. I will forward that on to her.
Bobby –
I got this from the first link:
May unbaptized babies receive a Catholic funeral? What about miscarried babies? If a child
That sounds right to me. I don’t know why he wouldn’t. I would give the priest the benefit of the doubt and assume that he had a good reason not to hold a funeral, though. But I don’t know. I’m not sure what kind of reason that would be.
From Bobby’s website he posted:
1262 The different effects of Baptism are signified by the perceptible elements of the sacramental rite. Immersion in water symbolizes not only death and purification, but also regeneration and renewal. Thus the two principal effects are purification from sins and new birth in the Holy Spirit.64
For the forgiveness of sins . . .
1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.65 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.
———-
Baptism does not wash away sin. Jesus’ blood did that. By believing the above, one is simply denouncing what Jesus did on the cross. Even Jesus was baptized. He had no sin.
P.S. I think Blessing is beautiful.
Jess, right on, and despite any and all differences, I think Bethany is beautiful for the way she thinks of her kids.
Doug
Sandy- I can’t say I do support it. I think it’s fine for someone who miscarries or has a stillborn to name it. However, unless it is delivered with vital signs, I don’t think it should have a legal name. That’s the beginning of granting personhood, which I am very much against. If they want to take it home and dispose of it as they would like, that’s all right, I suppose, though on some occasions I can understand that health restrictions could be an issue. But a name is fine, I just don’t think that it should be a legally given name.
Erin: Why are you against a legal name and personhood? What harm does it do anyone?
Erin: Why are you against a legal name and personhood? What harm does it do anyone?
Posted by: Janet at February 18, 2008 8:33 PM
Janet, I was going to be facetious and ask you why you are for giving legal personhood status to a dead fetus, but I think we all know why you all want to do that.
So much for women’s “choice” when it comes to giving grieving women “choices” how to respectfully bury or bless their much wanted babies. It is their body, their baby; it should be their “choice.” I am so tired of the pro-abort agenda dictating to women and their families the right to what, why, when, where, and how based on their whacked sense of entitlement about pregnancy loss. They continue to throw women under the bus to save their “choice.”…………………………………………..
Good grief! Look at the embryo Bethany supposedly cleaned blood and tissue away from without tearing it to pieces. What woman in her right mind would go to the expense of handing such over to a mortician and for what? Pickling? Think of any other way to embalm an embryo? Who would pay the price of a burial plot for a coffin the size of lip balm tin? Take it home and burry it? What’s next? Grandma in the flower garden?
There is no such thing as miscarriage law Jill. There are burial and biohazard laws for very good reasons that Sandy seems completely oblivious to. I would hope that Bethany or any other woman wouldn’t invite vermin and other health hazards into her yard/neighborhood by burring actual rotting flesh.
Sally,
Honestly, what the hell is the matter with you! You have absolutely no couth and not a bone with an ounce of dignity it in. How dare you.
I have read a slough of downright cruel and tasteless comments, but this one takes the cake. Honestly, Sally, I have no idea how anyone including you can live with yourself.
Janet- It applies a dangerous legal precedent. You classify a fetus as a person and it’s going to be a big blow to abortion rights. Half the reason abortion is fine with me is because no form of character or personhood is established until brain function is at a cognitive level. Sort of like when you name an animal or something that you find as a child, it’s harder to let it go or take it back to it’s owner. It has an emotional and subconscious effect by having a name, and having it governmentally approved and supported is not safe.
Per Sally:
Good grief! Look at the embryo Bethany supposedly cleaned blood and tissue away from without tearing it to pieces. What woman in her right mind would go to the expense of handing such over to a mortician and for what? Pickling?
Sally, Sally, Sally,
A miscarried baby the size of Bethany’s or mine would not be turned over to a mortician for embalming or even cremation by itself. Too small. There are many babies who are miscarried that can be dressed for a respectful memorial service and buried in a small coffin or cremated and kept in a small urn or scattered wherever the parents decide. Women who experience miscarriage should have every right to determine the proper disposition.
Per Sally:
Think of any other way to embalm an embryo? Who would pay the price of a burial plot for a coffin the size of lip balm tin? Take it home and burry it? What’s next? Grandma in the flower garden?
Sally, Sally, Sally,
Yes depending on state law women are free to take their baby home and bury it where ever they like. Some women choose to bury on top of a loved one’s grave, some bury in their yard or cremate and like I stated above and keep the ashes in a small urn.
Per Sally:
There is no such thing as miscarriage law Jill. There are burial and biohazard laws for very good reasons that Sandy seems completely oblivious to. I would hope that Bethany or any other woman wouldn’t invite vermin and other health hazards into her yard/neighborhood by burring actual rotting flesh.
Sally, Sally, Sally,
What biohazard laws am I oblivious to? Please point them out.
Erin,
Thanks for your response. By not supporting this ruling don’t you take away the “choices” for women who experience pregnancy loss? Isn’t “choice” what you all have fought for?
What does “choice” really mean to you then??
ya know, Sandy …. sounds like a negligent dr to me … why would he not even inform her of the option to induce labor/delivery, when that is clearly safer for the woman than D&E? Seems like the least aggressive method would have been preferable to the doctor if he was truly concerned for the health of his patient.
IF IF IF there was some remote medical reason that meant labor / delivery was risky, then that would be different. But the child has already died naturally, why the D&E?!?!
Posted by: Kristi at February 18, 2008 5:33 PM
Kristi,
Strange but true. I know another woman who was diagnosed with a miscarriage and her young dr. young was waaaaayyyy to excited to perform the D&C. She acted all giddy when she suggested it as a means to end the miscarriage and told them something to the effect that she wanted to get more time in the surgical area.
Her husband was with her at the time and they were both so outraged, they found another dr.
and never went back.
Per Sally:
Good grief! Look at the embryo Bethany supposedly cleaned blood and tissue away from without tearing it to pieces. What woman in her right mind would go to the expense of handing such over to a mortician and for what? Pickling?
Sally, Sally, Sally,
A miscarried baby the size of Bethany’s or mine would not be turned over to a mortician for embalming or even cremation by itself. Too small. There are many babies who are miscarried that can be dressed for a respectful memorial service and buried in a small coffin or cremated and kept in a small urn or scattered wherever the parents decide. Women who experience miscarriage should have every right to determine the proper disposition.
Per Sally:
Think of any other way to embalm an embryo? Who would pay the price of a burial plot for a coffin the size of lip balm tin? Take it home and burry it? What’s next? Grandma in the flower garden?
Sally, Sally, Sally,
Yes depending on state law women are free to take their baby home and bury it where ever they like. Some women choose to bury on top of a loved one’s grave, some bury in their yard or cremate and like I stated above and keep the ashes in a small urn.
Per Sally:
There is no such thing as miscarriage law Jill. There are burial and biohazard laws for very good reasons that Sandy seems completely oblivious to. I would hope that Bethany or any other woman wouldn’t invite vermin and other health hazards into her yard/neighborhood by burring actual rotting flesh.
Sally, Sally, Sally,
What biohazard laws am I oblivious to? Please point them out.
Posted by: Sandy at February 18, 2008 9:08 PM
…………………………………
Come on Sandy! Burying an actual body in the back yard is illegal for very good reason. Another obvious reason that embryos are not babies. A line must be drawn between the hazard an actual rotting body will cause without proper burial and an embryo lacking a human body.
Quite obviously a fetus of gestational length to have possibly survived birth will have a body potentially hazardous if buried incorrectly.
A line must be drawn between practical reality and emotional hysteria. I mean really. If your husband dies, you don’t get to keep his body around the house until you are ready to part with it. You’d be considered a little unbalanced to do so if you were allowed. Pretty much how I view women wishing to take dead ‘babies’ home.
As for burial of stillborns, that is quite legal making this whole PL non-issue ridiculous.
“Good grief! Look at the embryo Bethany supposedly cleaned blood and tissue away from without tearing it to pieces. What woman in her right mind would go to the expense of handing such over to a mortician and for what? Pickling? Think of any other way to embalm an embryo? Who would pay the price of a burial plot for a coffin the size of lip balm tin? Take it home and burry it? What’s next? Grandma in the flower garden?”
@Sally: What you said about Bethany and her miscarriage is completely uncalled for, rude, and hurtful. Why do you feel it is okay to trivialize something like that in order for further your own “arguments”?
Per Sally:
Come on Sandy! Burying an actual body in the back yard is illegal for very good reason. Another obvious reason that embryos are not babies. A line must be drawn between the hazard an actual rotting body will cause without proper burial and an embryo lacking a human body.
Quite obviously a fetus of gestational length to have possibly survived birth will have a body potentially hazardous if buried incorrectly.
Sally,
Check your state laws. My state law allows it.
Per Sally:
A line must be drawn between practical reality and emotional hysteria.
Sally,
Sorry you have a heart of stone Sally. I hope someday you can find a way to support women for reasons other than to kill their babies.
Per Sally,
I mean really. If your husband dies, you don’t get to keep his body around the house until you are ready to part with it. You’d be considered a little unbalanced to do so if you were allowed. Pretty much how I view women wishing to take dead ‘babies’ home.
Sally,
So you would rather them be tossed away with medical waste? What about the women’s choice here Sally??
Per Sally:
As for burial of stillborns, that is quite legal making this whole PL non-issue ridiculous.
Sally,
Why should a baby at 20 weeks get recognized, but a baby at 19 weeks 6 days does not.
Bethany,
I’m so glad you got to have Blessing in that way and got to take pictures and bury your baby. I believe that must have been helpful in dealing with the loss. And I’ve said this a billion times, but I love seeing pictures of Blessing..I remember the first time I saw the ultrasound of my Gabriella at about 9 weeks..looked just like Blessing. It’s very eye-opening.
Per Sally:
Come on Sandy! Burying an actual body in the back yard is illegal for very good reason. Another obvious reason that embryos are not babies. A line must be drawn between the hazard an actual rotting body will cause without proper burial and an embryo lacking a human body.
Quite obviously a fetus of gestational length to have possibly survived birth will have a body potentially hazardous if buried incorrectly.
Sally,
Check your state laws. My state law allows it.
Per Sally:
A line must be drawn between practical reality and emotional hysteria.
Sally,
Sorry you have a heart of stone Sally. I hope someday you can find a way to support women for reasons other than to kill their babies.
Per Sally,
I mean really. If your husband dies, you don’t get to keep his body around the house until you are ready to part with it. You’d be considered a little unbalanced to do so if you were allowed. Pretty much how I view women wishing to take dead ‘babies’ home.
Sally,
So you would rather them be tossed away with medical waste? What about the women’s choice here Sally??
Per Sally:
As for burial of stillborns, that is quite legal making this whole PL non-issue ridiculous.
Sally,
Why should a baby at 20 weeks get recognized, but a baby at 19 weeks 6 days does not.
Posted by: Sandy at February 18, 2008 9:50 PM
……………….
I don’t know where you live Sandy but we aren’t allowed to bury even pets in our yards. It invites all manner of scavengers. We certainly aren’t allowed to bury caskets. I’m very surprised your community allows it. Dead bodies are waste. Choosing to pretend otherwise doesn’t make it so.
What on earth do you find to be ‘recognizing’ about the manner of disposal of a dead anything? Do you really fantasize that dead things care how they are disposed of?
And Sandy, a heart of stone? @@ Why do you PL folk always resort to childish insult? Can’t make a logical and valid point backing up your assertions? Too much pride to admit that your views are illogical and hysterically emotional?
I lost a baby (Gabriel)at five months and he is buried with my father. Gabriel’s name is on the headstone and in both the cemetery records and the church records. I had to initiate the process of claiming his body myself and contact the crematory society so they could pick up his remains from the hospital. This was in Chicago.
I guess I never thought of allowing it to be any different and God help the person that would have tried to take him from us.
I can understand if Bethany has strong feelings about her miscarriage.
On the other hand, I took a five-month absence from work to tend to my father so that he could die at home as he wished. It never occurred to me at his death to wash him carefully, take a bazillion photographs, and splatter them all over the internet so that they could be viewed by strangers.
I guess my departed loved ones don’t fulfill the requirements for political propaganda or my personal agenda. It’s either that or the fact that I loved him and even in death afforded him respect and dignity.
Whatever.
Once again, Sad Eyed Sally reveals her psycho- sexual pathology from being a member of her deathsex klan family, replete with a bonus of natural anti-Catholic bigotry.
Then comes Face o’ Fascist, with her tales from the crypt, allowing her father to suffer needlessly, for five months.
Getting even FF?
Letting him get what was a coming to him, by that simple minded philosophy of what goes around comes around, for him.
Bethany,
You are such a great mom. Your Blessing has touched the lives of so many people and your healing is important to God and others. Your baby is precious and beautiful and your story is one of courage and the painful honesty of grief. You are a sister in every sense of the word to me. We have both known miscarriage and now are here to help others.
Thank you.
FF,
Last May my paternal grandmother “Granny” died from a malignant tumor at home, surrounding by family and hospice was brought in before she passed as well. In the last days, various family members took a few pictures of her with her children/grandchildren for keepsake memories. After she passed, before the funeral home got there, we gently cleaned her and changed her clothing and were given a chance to say last goodbyes. No, this has nothing to do with any “political propoganda” but rather dignifying and saying goodbye to our loved ones after their passing.
FF,
Last May my paternal grandmother “Granny” died from a malignant brain tumor at home, surrounded by family and hospice was brought in before she passed as well. In the last days, various family members took a few pictures of her with her children/grandchildren for keepsake memories. After she passed, before the funeral home got there, we gently cleaned her and changed her clothing and were given a chance to say last goodbyes. No, this has nothing to do with any “political propoganda” but rather dignifying and saying goodbye to our loved ones after their passing.
*Mods corrected some grammatical errors, feel free to delete my previous copy of this post.
FF,
Bethany chose to use her photos of Blessing to help other people. She cared for Blessing because this was her child. Again, a feeling you will never know. I would do the same thing Bethany did, and I would use or give up anything I had to help one person or many people through a difficult situation. I know. Difficult for you to understand. But some people choose to put the needs of others ahead of the needs of themselves.
FF and Sally: How grief is handled varies from person to person. Your way is not superior to Bethany’s way. It is also not inferior. What matters is what works for the people who experienced the loss.
Sally and FF may not have expressed their opinions in the gentlest manner, but I think that there is definitely some validity to their point. I’m sorry for your miscarriage Bethany, but I also find your reaction and the photos to be a little odd.
I also think that your reaction to the miscarriage demonstrates that even you don’t think of a 6 week fetus as being the same as a baby. After all, I can’t imagine that if the fetus had lived up until birth and then passed away that you would have placed it in a fishtank full of water so that its limbs would wave about as if it was still living.
Sandy, Anonymous, Elizabeth, Ari-Chan, Carrie, Rachel C, Carla, and anyone else I may have missed…thank you so much for your responses to Sally. I really appreciate you all being so kind.
Sally has been saying this stuff (and worse) about my baby since she first arrived at Jill Stanek’s blog…as her very first comments here will show. In fact, she compared my baby to her dead father’s toenail. I knew from that moment Sally has a problem and I only feel sympathy for her now.
Good grief! Look at the embryo Bethany supposedly cleaned blood and tissue away from without tearing it to pieces. What woman in her right mind would go to the expense of handing such over to a mortician and for what? Pickling? Think of any other way to embalm an embryo? Who would pay the price of a burial plot for a coffin the size of lip balm tin? Take it home and burry it? What’s next? Grandma in the flower garden?
I’ve made it abundantly clear to you that my baby wasn’t covered in blood or tissue when I found the baby. It wasn’t difficult to find the baby as he/she was the first thing I saw. The baby was surrounded in amniotic fluid, not blood.
And i didn’t have a D and C which is why my baby was not in “pieces”.
I didn’t have a need for a mortician or embalming.
You can read my story again here (the 9:52 post), if you’re still confused.
And Sandy, a heart of stone? @@ Why do you PL folk always resort to childish insult? Can’t make a logical and valid point backing up your assertions? Too much pride to admit that your views are illogical and hysterically emotional?
It’s so ironic when Sally accuses others of resorting to childish insult.
Laura:
I can understand if Bethany has strong feelings about her miscarriage.
On the other hand, I took a five-month absence from work to tend to my father so that he could die at home as he wished. It never occurred to me at his death to wash him carefully, take a bazillion photographs, and splatter them all over the internet so that they could be viewed by strangers.
I guess my departed loved ones don’t fulfill the requirements for political propaganda or my personal agenda. It’s either that or the fact that I loved him and even in death afforded him respect and dignity.
Whatever.
My personal agenda is to have my baby recognized as the person she was. There is nothing undignified about that.
I find nothing disrespectful about giving my baby the chance to be seen and recognized for the beautiful little human that Blessing was. Even in death, my baby had a purpose. A wonderful purpose! Even before many recognize my baby to be a human being, my baby has been able to help women across the globe, in the last year!
I cannot tell you how many emails I have gotten from thankful women, who were not able to see their babies because of a D and C, to tell me how my pictures were confirmation for them that what they lost was real, and it has given them a sense of closure. They had sought and sought for confirmation that their feelings were not “crazy”, and then they saw the pictures and they knew, it wasn’t just their imagination. What they lost was REAL and their feelings were JUSTIFIED.
I have met so many women since my miscarriage, who have been helped by these pictures, that I do not feel that they should ever be hidden.
I do know for a fact the reason my pictures offend YOU so, and the fact that you are offended by it gives me hope that I should continue doing so! You encourage me, Laura!
I will continue to share pictures of my blessing until more and more people see and recognize what is not merely a blob of tissue, or a wad of crotch product, but a beautiful, complex, individual human being who deserves to be respected and loved, just as every other human being who has not yet been born!
I would encourage other mothers who have taken pictures to share theirs with the world as well!
Sally and FF may not have expressed their opinions in the gentlest manner, but I think that there is definitely some validity to their point. I’m sorry for your miscarriage Bethany, but I also find your reaction and the photos to be a little odd.
Thank you, Hieronymous. I hope that my “oddness” will be catching.
I also think that your reaction to the miscarriage demonstrates that even you don’t think of a 6 week fetus as being the same as a baby. After all, I can’t imagine that if the fetus had lived up until birth and then passed away that you would have placed it in a fishtank full of water so that its limbs would wave about as if it was still living
I wouldn’t have needed to. A born baby does not have a need to be inside water. My baby was drying out. The natural environment for a fetus is inside the womb, surrounded in amniotic fluid, so it only makes sense to put the baby in water. I did not put the baby in the bag of water for my own benefit, but because the body was drying out…it was then a surprise when I found out that the baby’s details showed up much more clearly once engulfed in water. And I did take pictures again once I noticed this. I felt that the baby would have been happier in the same environment that he/she had been surrounded in before passing.
Oh Bethany, you bring tears to my eyes. God love you and your family.
God love you too, Bobby!
FF:
Bethany was very courageous for wanting to post Blessing’s photos up on Jill’s site. Bethany has always stated her intent is to educate people. The fact that a baby at 6 weeks gestation is not just a blob of tissue is proven by Blessing. Blessing is a beautiful little miracle.
I think this site is the perfect place for Blessing to be.
Per FF:
I” guess my departed loved ones don’t fulfill the requirements for political propaganda or my personal agenda.”
FF:
You are the one who loves to post pictures of other peoples’ departed babies with deformities to try and prove your point that these babies are too grotesque to be allowed to live and should be aborted.
So……..I guess you should stop using those photos for YOUR political propaganda and personal agenda???
Hieronymous,
If Blessing had passed away just before birth, I am sure Bethany wouldn’t have put her in a tank of water. She would have dressed her, held her, cuddled her, took her photo and footprints. Just like I would have done.
Absolutely, Carla. That is exactly what I would have done.
Sandy, thank you for reminding me of how Laura loves to splatter images of babies who don’t conform to her idea of perfection all over the web in order to say that we should be able to kill them. I also recall that she has posted a picture of a little girl and a vulture time and time again in order to further her agenda. Just a tad hypocritical of her, huh?
Hieronymous,
What, were you jealous that Sally & FF were getting all the attention for their rude comments that you just couldn’t resist? Does it make you feel good to come on a pro-life website filled with kind, loving people and attempt to hurt them for your own sick, personal gain? What a life you must have. Sitting behind a computer and hurting people you don’t even know…REAL people. Sounds like a much rewarding life you must lead. **choke**
Ahhh Anonymous, you certainly have me pegged. You have wounded me to the core with your keen insight into my true nature. *eye roll*
And no, I wasn’t attempting to hurt anyone. I do understand that Bethany really grieved over her miscarriage, and I’m truly sorry she had to go through that. However…..as someone pointed out upthread a bit, people deal with grief and loss in different ways. To me, and apparently to Sally & FF, Bethany’s method seems a little odd. I know it’s fun to imagine that everyone must feel the same way that you do about everything, but that’s just not so.
I know it’s fun to imagine that everyone must feel the same way that you do about everything, but that’s just not so.
Well maybe Sally, FF, and yourself could heed your own advice here? You imagine that everyone must feel the same way about miscarriage as you, so you must insult those who don’t agree with you?
Thanks Anonymous.
To me, and apparently to Sally & FF, Bethany’s method seems a little odd.
That’s a GOOD thing though, Heironymous. People like Laura and Sally, I want to be the absolute opposite of. They stand for everything I am against.
If they think that what I do is odd, that means I’m on the right track. I am very pleased that people like Laura and Sally are offended by my reaction to miscarriage.
Per Sally:
Come on Sandy! Burying an actual body in the back yard is illegal for very good reason. Take it home and burry it? What’s next? Grandma in the flower garden?
Sally, no one is advocating that we bury Grandma in the flower garden. That is not necessary, Grandma is already considered a legal “person”, so her family and loved ones are already allowed to have legal custody of her body and arrange a proper burial for her. Those of us who have lost babies prior to 20weeks gestation are in some states not allowed to have legal custody of our own children’s bodies so we can arrange a burial or memorial for them. In some places, as Sandy has shown, the baby’s bodies are controlled by the hospital and disposed of as medical waste AGAINST the wishes of the family. And no, we’re not just talking about babies small enough to “fit in a lip balm tin” as you so sensitively noted. We’re also talking about children up to 19w 6d, who are obviously much larger. My son, at 18weeks, weighed almost a pound and was about 9 inches long. And yes, we bought a casket for him and yes, we bought a burial plot for him. And, *gasp*, we even went to the expense of buying a beautiful bronze grave marker. He was our CHILD and we wanted him buried with the love and dignity that he deserved.
And Laura:
I took a five-month absence from work to tend to my father so that he could die at home as he wished. It never occurred to me at his death to wash him carefully, take a bazillion photographs, and splatter them all over the internet so that they could be viewed by strangers.
Of course there was no need for you to take photographs of your dear Grandfather and show them to people, b/c no one in the world is trying to tell you that your Grandfather is not a real person!! If half of society insulted you by insisting that your Grandfather was just some tissue and flesh, but not a person, you would likely whip out photographs of your dear Grandfather and prove to others that they are wrong. There are many ignorant and insensitive folks like yourself who repeatedly insist that Bethany’s baby was not a real person. So of course she has a desire to share photographs with the world, which prove that her Blessing was, in fact, a teeny tiny human person.
Seriously, I don’t know how either of you can sleep at night.
Beautiful stone, Kristi. Beautiful.
Hieronymous:
Many physicians will tell you that the majority of women who miscarry, birth a stillborn or deliver a baby with deformities will want to see their baby and understand the complexities of why their baby died. So I guess that puts you, Sally and FF in the minority here.
Kristi, that is a beautiful, beautiful memorial for your baby. I am sorry for your loss.
P.s. (I resized the picture for you, hope you don’t mind)
Many physicians will tell you that the majority of women who miscarry, birth a stillborn or deliver a baby with deformities will want to see their baby and understand the complexities of why their baby died. So I guess that puts you, Sally and FF in the minority here.
Not only that, Sandy, but even Dr. Tiller let’s women who kill their babies at his clinic, take photographs of their babies along with footprints, etc. It’s ironic that they see nothing sick about that.
Thank you Carla and Bethany. And thanks for resizing, I couldn’t figure out how to do that, it was HUGE!!!
Bethany: Not only that, Sandy, but even Dr. Tiller let’s women who kill their babies at his clinic, take photographs of their babies along with footprints, etc. It’s ironic that they see nothing sick about that.
Yes, good point. Let’s kill ’em and THEN we’ll treat them with love and dignity by taking photos and arranging a service. That makes perfect sense!!
Kristi,
How beautiful! Thank you for sharing your story.
thanks, sandy.
Bethany,
The woman who initiated the bill in KS told me that the biggest reason she went forth with it is because she read that women who abort at some clinics are given the chance to hold their aborted babies. These women purposely killed their children and were allowed to see and greive over them. She wanted her baby and was not even given options on how to end her miscarriage and then found out her little one was just tossed away with the medial waste. How unjust and unfair.
“Not only that, Sandy, but even Dr. Tiller let’s women who kill their babies at his clinic, take photographs of their babies along with footprints, etc. It’s ironic that they see nothing sick about that.”
That is a bit on the twisted side.
Understatement.
Bethany, Sandi, Kristi & all other women who lost a child to miscarriage that do not allow their beautiful babies short lives go in vain:
You guys are my heroes. You are all so courageous and sweet, loving mothers. Each and every person has a God-given purpose for their lives, no matter how short their lives may be. God bless each and every one of you and I pray for your continued strength and healing and that God continues to use your situation for the good that He intended.
:)
women who abort at some clinics are given the chance to hold their aborted babies…..and were allowed to see and grieve over them. She wanted her baby and was not even given options on how to end her miscarriage and then found out her little one was just tossed away with the medial waste. How unjust and unfair.
Sandy,
I like to argue, but I sure can’t argue with that.
Doug
I also recall that she has posted a picture of a little girl and a vulture time and time again in order to further her agenda. Just a tad hypocritical of her, huh?
Posted by: Bethany at February 19, 2008 9:04 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yeah, I pimped the picture of the kid and the vulture to further my political agenda the same way you pimped the picture of Blessing to further yours.
It’s not something I’d do to my late father.
I loved him.
Doug,
Sorry, I can’t resist! How about-DirtyOldUglyGuy( DOUG). Just kidding!
Yeah, I pimped the picture of the kid and the vulture to further my political agenda the same way you pimped the picture of Blessing to further yours.
It’s not something I’d do to my late father.
I loved him.
Posted by: FetusFascist at February 19, 2008 4:38 PM
You are always complaining that Jill posts pictures and videos of women’s crotches without their consent.
You choose to post pictures of babies with deformities. They never gave consent either. I am sure some of their parents loved them too just like you loved your father. Did you get their consent??
Again, just another example of the hypocrisy you continue to bring to the site.
How about-DirtyOldUglyGuy( DOUG).
Ha! Janet, right on with the acronym.
Now that you mention it, here is an updated picture of me.
There have been many positive changes brought about by grieving people who are trying to make sure something positive comes from their loss. In some instances, they are trying to be comfort to others. In other instances, they are trying to affect change so that no one has to go throught what they went through.
I bow to your obvious superiority, Laura.
Not.
should read through, not throught.
lol, Bethany!
FF,
Political agenda? Bethany????
POLITICAL????
Really????
Sweetie, you really have to start paying attention here.
POLITICAL?!?!?!
Carrie: There have been many positive changes brought about by grieving people who are trying to make sure something positive comes from their loss.
Ain’t nuttin’ wrong wid dat.
……
In some instances, they are trying to be comfort to others.
Same song, second verse.
……
In other instances, they are trying to affect change so that no one has to go throught what they went through.
Whoa! Holy Moly – now this is where we run into trouble – the assumption that other people will necessarily experience things in the same way. It just ain’t so.
By that logic, we could advocate banning childbirth when looking at cases of people who regretted it or felt sad about it or the Susan Smiths of the world, etc.
Doug
Sure you loved your father FF.
You allowed him to suffer needlessly for five months, and couldn’t resist mentioning how you lost some money during those five months of allowing him to suffer.
A case of what goes around comes around is brought to its logical conclusions by FF.
What a selfish act, FF.
Good points Doug, especially the last one. That is true that not everyone experiences things the same way. I had in mind people who have lost loved ones from drunk driving pushing for stricter DUI laws. I was also thinking of Megan’s Law, which is in place because of the strong advocacy of Megan’s mother. I wanted to make the point that people who have experienced tragedy aren’t exploiting their loved ones when they try to prevent further tragedies from happening. I wasn’t referring to abortion. I think post-abortive regret is a poor reason to be against abortion and a poor reason to push for abortion to be banned. There are some many other reasons that make more sense. How are you by the way?
Boy, I am out of practice! ***so many other reasons***
Whoa! Holy Moly – now this is where we run into trouble – the assumption that other people will necessarily experience things in the same way. It just ain’t so.
By that logic, we could advocate banning childbirth when looking at cases of people who regretted it or felt sad about it or the Susan Smiths of the world, etc.
You’re assuming she’s referring to the banning of abortion, and tha’ts not at all what she meant, Doug.
She’s referring to instances such as – well, say, John Walsh, who lost his son to a murderer- whom they never found, who has tried to make changes so that other people will have justice and actually FIND the people who take the lives of their loved ones. So that they can have the justice he was not able to have for his own son.
Or like a person who becomes paralyzed due to being hit by a drunk driver, might travel to schools speaking about the dangers of drunk driving, to make changes so that others don’t have to go through what he did.
Can you see the point that sometimes you can affect changes which will help others not to have to go through what you did?
You would simply be amazed if you could go through my inbox and see how many hundreds of emails I have received (and responded to) where moms were asking me for advice on how to deal with their miscarriages. Wondering what to do? What should they feel? Why are they so scared, why are they feeling so helpless? Why does their husband trivialize her pain? How long does she have to wait before the baby comes? Why do people say such cruel things, such as “Well it was probably better this way. Now you don’t have to worry about another mouth to feed”. How much pain will she be in? Is natural miscarriage safe? No one ever told her anything at the doctor. No one prepared her for what a miscarriage will be like. Why don’t her friends acknowledge how she feels? Why do they expect her to be over it after only a week? And a multitude of other questions.
I didn’t ask to miscarry. I didn’t want to. I never would have dreamed it would have happened, and it wouldn’t have been what I would have ever chosen. It caused me much grief. HOWEVER, turning it around so that it could be a positive thing for others, so that it could help them have a more positive outlook and to know what to expect after their miscarriages…I feel that has really helped me in my healing…just knowing that my experience can help others who are suffering like I was. I now can look back at my miscarriage, and look at my beautiful baby, and be happy that my baby had a purpose in his or her short life here. Just knowing that other women are being helped by my experience and my baby’s short life is good enough for me. I have so much to be thankful for.
Doug,
You’re right that not everyone will feel the same way in a given situation. However, I feel that change needs to be made when the majority of people feel a certain way, or how an act may affect the majority, not the minority.
I think post-abortive regret is a poor reason to be against abortion and a poor reason to push for abortion to be banned. There are so many other reasons that make more sense. How are you by the way?
Hey Carrie,
Agreed on the post-abortive regret (as with post-partum depression) – not good reasons to be against it for other people. On the “so many other reasons,” granted that many people look at it that way, but I don’t see it as a good enough reason for telling a pregnant woman she has to continue a pregnancy.
Looking forward to spring here. Got about 4″ snow today – north-central WV. Next week it’s off the the hind-end of the USA, New Jersey. There are nice parts of NJ, but that’s not where I’m headed.
You’re assuming she’s referring to the banning of abortion, and tha’ts not at all what she meant, Doug. She’s referring to instances such as – well, say, John Walsh, who lost his son to a murderer- whom they never found, who has tried to make changes so that other people will have justice and actually FIND the people who take the lives of their loved ones. So that they can have the justice he was not able to have for his own son.
Can you see the point that sometimes you can affect changes which will help others not to have to go through what you did?
Bethany, reading her first post, I saw nothing to indicate that she meant that, but I certainly have no problem with the John Walsh-type stuff.
……
You would simply be amazed if you could go through my inbox and see how many hundreds of emails I have received (and responded to) where moms were asking me for advice on how to deal with their miscarriages.
Not surprised – I know miscarriages really hurt, often.
……
Why does their husband trivialize her pain?
I’d say because the husbands are stupid, lacking in tact, not really realizing what their wives need at that point or not caring about it that much, etc.
……
Why do people say such cruel things, such as “Well it was probably better this way. Now you don’t have to worry about another mouth to feed”.
Geez – again, not being sensitive and/or just plain stupid.
……
I feel that has really helped me in my healing…just knowing that my experience can help others who are suffering like I was.
I still think it’s sad, Bethany, but also feel that you have done excellently for yourself and for others in this.
Doug
You’re right that not everyone will feel the same way in a given situation. However, I feel that change needs to be made when the majority of people feel a certain way, or how an act may affect the majority, not the minority.
Anonymous, yeah, I think most will agree with that, even without specifiying what the issue is.
Doug