The fat lady has not yet sung in Aurora
by Mary Kay Hastings
Last month the City of Aurora dismissed motions pro-life attorneys filed to reverse permit decisions allowing Planned Parenthood to build.
Now, pro-life advocates have filed suit against officials for the City’s inexplicable contention that PP’s permit approvals did not violate City zoning rules.
The plaintiffs, including residents and Fox Valley Families Against Planned Parenthood, say the clinic misrepresented itself to the city and to the public, using a fictitious name, the Gemini Office Development corporation, to hide behind during the zoning approval process….
Because of this, neighbors and residents were denied the right to oppose the abortion mill.
The lawsuit seeks to revoke the clinic’s occupancy permit.
Says Tom Brechja, lead pro-life attorney at the Thomas More Society:
By concealing the true planned use of the property, Planned Parenthood evaded the process that would have provided local residents and city officials with the opportunity to question how their neighborhood and community would be changed.
Democracy can’t work for people if they are denied an opportunity to impact even their own neighborhoods, he added. It simply isn’t fair to allow any entity, including Planned Parenthood, to operate outside the law .
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
The battle is on! I’m proud to be standing up against PP and their protectors in Aurora city government.
Makes me think of our Aurora warriors and how much I miss them…
ABLaura, Hooves, Carrie…the door is always open!
MK,
Where did they go?
I miss them.
LB:
God bless you! WGN radio (Chicago) just had this story on their 10:00 AM news. Let’s continue to pray for all those involved.
Here’s the link to wgn radio’s story on this fiasco! Thank you, Janet!
http://tinyurl.com/2vg5gl
It’s also running on the news on WLS The story isn’t up on their site– just the headline.
Thanks for the prayers and support — always welcome. We have great attorneys, who really know how to argue a case and win against the PP hoard.
Elizabeth,
It’s a long story, but short version is the blog started getting a little nasty and I called everyone out on it. The girls felt that I was taking sides and not chastising the pro-choice side, but instead singling out the prolifers. I said that yes, actually we were, we expect more from the prolife side, they didn’t like that attitude and left.
It’s a shame, because I loved their input.
Bethany could probably link you to the posts where all of this took place. Personally, I’m so sick of going back into posts after this week that if I never have to do it again, it’ll be too soon! lol
While I miss ABLaura, Carrie and Hooves, who I really miss is
Anon,
Could you send that link to me in an email so I can shorten it?
mk,
e-mail sent.
new link attached.
I think the fat lady has sung, and that the echos of her voice are now well out into space.
Anon,
I didn’t get it…I’m so sorry…one more time?
mk,
re-sent.
anon,
I don’t know why I’m not getting them? Are you sending them to MK on the right had side of this page?
mkhastings at ameritech dot net
Yep, that’s where I’ve been sending them to. Maybe they are in your junk mail file, since I’m an “unknown” sender?
I BCC’d to another e-mail address, along with the one I sent to you, and I did see it on the BCC address.
Maybe you’ll just get the e-mail 5 times all at once!
Doug,
Fat lady did not get to sing…Aurora City officials did not even look into the issues raised by Aurora residents/ taxpayers.
Finally, a chance for our side to be heard…
Actually Anon,
You can repost it here…or go to tinyrul.com and feed the long link into the address bar and it will shorten for you…
Here’s the link to tinyurl…
http://tinyurl.com/
http://tinyurl.com/2vg5gl
Here you go!
Seriously, though. Check your junk mail file. That’s where it ended up for me after I sent it.
subject were “link” and “I’ll try it again”
Thanks for the help!
The fat lady sang in October, when reviews by three different attorneys found no legal basis to deny an occupancy permit to the clinic:
http://tinyurl.com/2flmvx
Anti-choicers in Aurora don’t have a legal leg to stand on.
The 3 attorneys have incomplete findings (Aurora officials did not want to release pertinent documents)…and the corrupt Mayor decided on those incomplete findings that there was no legal basis… Those investigations were railroaded not to find anything.
Yanno-
Even Steve Trombley said that the Aurora Planned Parenthood was seeing fewer abortion patients than expected, and was doing a boom business in contraceptive patients.
Why isn’t that music to your ears?
FF,
Cuz when Steve Trombley talks, we don’t listen. He’s a liar.
Reality —
You don’t know the issues. The reviews were
1. Conducted with incomplete information (the city did not provide all the paperwork).
2. Two reviews were done by attornies with material interest in pleasing the city council.
3. The 3rd review was done by the states attorney of a neighboring county and only covered criminal wrongdoing. (Zoning violations and coverups would be civil offenses).
The hearings covered by the zoning review board were an exercise in sidestepping the issue. No substantive discovery was performed and all the board said was that they had no jurisdiction on the issue.
So, the issues and actions surrounding the building of the clinic have never been explored by a disinterested party. The City has never provided all the paperwork involved and PP has never been party to discovery.
The deed for the land they purchased carries a zoning restriction of business only — that is undeniable. No zoning changes were conducted in public and that is a violation of at least zoning regulations and may be a violation of open meetings acts. No notice was sent to interested parties about any change and that violates Illinois law.
So Reality, there are real issues involved and the little puppet show the Mayor of Aurora perpetrated back in October was just a show. The real issues will be found out through this lawsuit.
“The real issues will be found out through this lawsuit.”
Wanna bet about that? I predict in 8 months you’ll be crying about the case being thrown out of court.
Fat lady did not get to sing…Aurora City officials did not even look into the issues raised by Aurora residents/ taxpayers.
Well, RSD, we shall see what happens. If nothing much does, are you gonna make her sing again?
“Even Steve Trombley said that the Aurora Planned Parenthood was seeing fewer abortion patients than expected, and was doing a boom business in contraceptive patients.” Why isn’t that music to your ears?
FetusFascist 1:44 PM: Do you have a source for Trombley’s quote? I don’t recall hearing that.
LB: I’m with you. I think FAPP will prevail with continued prayer.
Hal: If that happens it will only strengthen their resolve.
Steve Trombley is a total dork.
Steve Trombley is a total dork.
Haha, Janet..he so is.
Janet,
That quote (from FF re: dork-guy) was from the Daily Herald when they were doing bio’s on Eric, Steve, and Bonnie. All seperate stories. I think it was at the beginning of this year.
Thanks Anon!
I find it so interesting that pro-abortion folks are so married to the right to abort (that’s not in the constitution) that they are always ready to trample all the other rights to get it.
Example — trying to end 1st Amendment rights of pro-lifers and basic property rights for anyone in their way.
In the pro-abortion folks minds, the ‘right to kill/privacy’ is most important and they will align themselves with it no matter what mental/moral hoops they need to jump through. The fact that their institutions lie and pervert laws and regulations — doesn’t matter — as long as they are free to kill. The fact that abortion practitioners provide sub-standard care — no matter — it’s all ‘good’, in the pro-abortion mind.
Hal, Reality, FF keep on marching down that path and justify anything in the name of ‘privacy/killing’. I recall hearing that Eichmann thought he was just following the law, after all –the banality of evil.
“The fact that abortion practitioners provide sub-standard care — no matter — it’s all ‘good’, in the pro-abortion mind.”
no, we don’t like sub-standard care. I’m happy Planned Parenthood is designing and building modern state-of-the-art facilities, and I hope they staff them with the best doctors in town.
Hal,
There’s no such thing as abortion doctors being the “best doctors in town”. Please, for the love of God, WAKE UP!
no, we don’t like sub-standard care. I’m happy Planned Parenthood is designing and building modern state-of-the-art facilities
yeah, misery loves company….
no, we don’t like sub-standard care. I’m happy Planned Parenthood is designing and building modern state-of-the-art facilities, and I hope they staff them with the best doctors in town.
Posted by: Hal at February 14, 2008 3:11 PM
_______________________________________
Hal — That is actually a very Eichmann-esque remark. He didn’t question the Nazi Final Solution, he only did his job and tried to get it done in the most efficient, modern manner.
Anon 3:48 was me.
There’s no such thing as abortion doctors being the “best doctors in town”. Please, for the love of God, WAKE UP!
Actually, all the abortion doctors I have met have been kind, ethical people, with excellent qualifications and reputations.
That is actually a very Eichmann-esque remark.
Nobody in the US is forcibly performing abortions or sterilizing prisoners. Nazi comparisons are groundless and offensive, and the denigrate the experience of millions of murdered and imprisoned Jews, Catholics, gays, Gypsies, etc.
I heartily disagree with you about the comparison — it is apt.
Millions of children are being exterminated — the fact that it continues and that ‘normal’ Americans encourage it– denigrate{s} the experience of millions of murdered and imprisoned Jews, Catholics, gays, Gypsies, etc.
Those killed by the Nazis were seen as non- or sub-human — just like pro-abortion folks see the unborn.
LB, this is why we will never get anywhere. You all seem to refuse to consider the rights of the mother as weighed against the rights of the fetus, unable to survive on its own outside the womb.
Incidentally, I don’t encourage abortion, and I don’t know anybody else who does, either. I regard it as tragic, but a sad necessity which will always happen, and therefore should happen as safely as possible. Safe, legal and rare is the goal.
Ray,
If abortion is tragic and sad, and there are other options available, why is it a necessity?
Anon at 4:48. It will always be necessary, because there will always be pregnant women and girls who are simply unwilling to carry their pregnancies to term, and the way I see the morality equation, they ought not to be forced to do so.
Frankly I wish we could convene a blue ribbon panel of scientists, ethicists, scholars, clergy, etc., to study pregnancy and pick a point somewhere along the way (personally I would peg it around the middle of the second trimester, but it would be up to the panel) before which, abortion would be available no questions asked, and after which it would be banned except in case of endangerment of the life of the mother. We would all agree to this, then go spend our time on more productive pursuits and debates. But I have a feeling that you antis will never let up, and neither will we pro-choicers.
Promote abstinence if you like, but teach the use of birth control and make it available to anyone who wants it, no questions asked. That is how you reduce unwanted pregnancies and therefore, abortions.
Whew! I was worried that FAPP (love the acronym by the way, so techie and dirty) wouldn’t push the suit through.
Thankfully, now I’ll get to laugh at their ridiculous legal arguments for some time to come!
And the best part is….FAPP isn’t affecting PP’s bottom line at ALL with this suit, because the City of Aurora is the defendant, and not PP. Awesome!! That should really get people sympathetic with FAPP’s cause…except exactly the opposite…
Oh, and btw, Gemini Office Development isn’t a ‘fictitious name’ like you say up in the post. That’s actually the legal name of the entity that built the facility. I will sooooo enjoy watching the FAPP suit go down in flames and smoke. I love it when you all have no idea how to pick your battles.
Hieronymous —
Where are you getting your information? Planned Parenthood is listed as the first defendent in the suit.
http://familiesagainstplannedparenthood.org/docs/2008/ZoningComplaint021308.pdf
Regarding from your nickname, are you a sailor on the ship of fools? Just wondering that was Hieronymous’ most famous painting …
“Hal — That is actually a very Eichmann-esque remark. He didn’t question the Nazi Final Solution, he only did his job and tried to get it done in the most efficient, modern manner.”
You guys complain about sub-standard care for women getting abortion, but high care abortions are “Eichmann-esque.” The original question is why aren’t pro-choicers more upset about ugly conditions in abortion mills. I said I prefered better facilities and better doctors. That makes me a Nazi I guess.
Those killed by the Nazis were seen as non- or sub-human — just like pro-abortion folks see the unborn.
LB, that’s not true. The unborn in this argument are just as human as you and me.
Doug
LB –
True, PP is named as a defendant. But FAPP doesn’t have any actual cause of action against them.
And nope, I just like Hieronymous because it rhymes with anonymous.
Yes, Doug, the unborn are as human as you and I.
Many Pro-abortion adherents don’t believe fetuses are fully human. Nazis defined many groups as sub-human (ex. the handicapped or gypsies, or jews) and therefore okay to kill, in fact it was avidly pursued.
As a pro-life person, I believe that the pre-born are fully human and that developing systemized ways of killing them is akin to the holocaust. Wanting to have great facilities to perform abortions in is akin to Eichmann being proud of building death camps.
Hieronymous–
I know that I, as a plaintive, have grounds for the lawsuit. It is a property issue and is outlined in the suit pretty clearly.
In fact, any resident of Aurora or any taxing body that would have received taxes from a for-profit building on that site could be party to this suit. Because PP knowingly decieved the city and its residents during the entire planning and development process, residents were deprived of due process. The suit is very readable and I encourage you to take a little time to look it over.
** By the way, I like you nickname, though its a bit hard to type in easily — have to cut and paste. I recognized it from Art History class back in the day — it popped into my mind and I don’t know why —memory is such a weird thing.
All abortion mills are filthy and evil. There are no ways to dress it up.
All abortion mills are filthy and evil. There are no ways to dress it up.
Posted by: jasper at February 14, 2008 9:41 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yeah, and all Catholic priests molest children.
Are we done with tonight’s stupid generalizations?
“Are we done with tonight’s stupid generalizations?”
No generalizations Laura, the Truth. All abortions mills commit murder. Not all priests molest children.
Well, well, well — “F” Fascist has returned. It is interesting, indeed, how when you are asked a question now & then, you decide to leave the premises. A noticeable pattern: “I’m not going to respond when I don’t feel like it” yet, “Don’t deny me the opportunity to spew my inane thoughts on this blog!”
Let’s all say a prayer for everyone affected by the NIU shootings today.
I heard a talk given by a doctor who formerly performed abortions. He admitted that the doctors that do perform abortions are worse in school and could not make it in the medical field anywhere else. So, the doctors going into abortion already are substandard for the medical profession.
Ugh. Aurora needs to end. Pray for me tomorrow guys, I may or may not do well on my evo test and I may or may not be getting tickets to oprah.
pip,
I will only pray for you under 2 conditions:
You take me to Oprah with you.
You get the tickets for the “my favorite things” show.
Just kidding. I’ll pray for you anyway. But seriously..take meeee.
Uh, Jasper-
About your “Quote of the Day.”
“The study, published in the journal BMC Psychiatry…”
BMC Psychiatry is a shlock pay-to-publish journal.
REAL researchers don’t have to PAY to get their work published:
From BMC Psychiatry:
Article-processing charges
BMC Psychiatry levies an article-processing charge for every accepted article, to cover the costs incurred by open access publication. In 2008 the article-processing charge is
Hey guys
I could use some thoughts/prayers/whatever.
I got into a car wreck last night, luckily no one else was hurt, but I broke my nose, fractured a cheekbone, cracked two ribs, and have a concussion. I’m sore and tired but need to get back to work and school fast! Grrr…I swear, the timing of some things.
Oh, Erin,
I am so sorry. I am praying for you!!!
I’ll say a prayer for you Erin. Tell your employeers and professors and I’m sure they’ll understand if you take a day off.
BTW did you get injured from the air bag? I heard it breaks noses.
Gosh darn it Carla I wanted to be the first to offer my prayers you beat me by a minute : (
Sorry Jess. I am sure God understands. :)
I read you had a wonderful Valentines Day!!
Also praying NIU!!!
Well on Valentines Day I drove back to school with my parents and we went to Friendlys. At school I went over my friends dorm and we watched Father of the Bride, ordered pizza (I swear I’ll be vegan today) and listened to our other friends drama, lol. But Tuesday was wonderful : )
Actually Elizabeth, if none of my friends (that I”m staying with) can’t go on the day, I will totally take you! I’m trying to get March 17 or 19.
Erin, I am so sorry to hear of what happened to you! That must have been so incredibly painful.
I hope that your body will heal quickly and that you will be able to go back to your normal life soon.
Erin,
Thinking of you and praying. Do you have some good drugs? A friend to help you out? Be well, sweet girl.
Bethany- all I can say at this point is thank goodness for prescription painkillers. If I wasn’t on anything, I’d be in so much more pain right now.
I’m also sad because my face is all ugly now. :-(
No one wants a beat-up waitress. I’m going to have to wait for all this swelling and bruising to go down before I can work again.
Actually Elizabeth, if none of my friends (that I”m staying with) can’t go on the day, I will totally take you! I’m trying to get March 17 or 19.
YES! I would love you forever.
Erin,
I’m so sorry you’re hurt. My prayers are with you.
Valentine’s Day this year really blew..more so than it normally would.
Hi LB –
Are you really a plaintiff in the suit? I’m sorry. You’re going to be disappointed. I have read the suit, and the whole thing hinges on your side mis-defining a medical clinic as a “health-related” facility. It ain’t gonna fly. Not to mention that you don’t actually have any damages. And that the one actual cause of action asserted against PP is going to get tossed on a motion to dismiss.
And I like the name too…Bosch was an interesting painter. My favorite is the Garden of Earthly Delights triptych.
Erin,
Praise God no one was seriously hurt!
I am so sorry you suffered the injuries that you did. It will heal, though. You are in my thoughts and prayers.
:)
Hieronymous–
As to the suit, there are several points involved, the most pertinent being that PP is operating a non-profit facility and that is a use that is absolutely prohibited without a special use permit — They knowingly misrepresented their development in order to avoid getting a special use permit.
Whatever the facility is called, it is not-for-profit and is not to be developed in a business zoned district. This restriction is on the deed and also referred to in the plans submitted. Also, because PP sought bonds from the state for funding of the development as a non-profit facility — it is clear that they knew what they were doing and chose to deceive in order to build the facility.
I highly doubt that suit will be tossed — especially once the discovery phase begins and PP and the City of Aurora turn over the material related to their plans. It will be interesting to see who contacted who when the plan was hatched to go into Aurora.
Uh. So far a no-go. There is still a chance, right?
I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree LB. PP is operating a medical clinic. Its profit status matters not a whit. Your suit is doomed, and no offense to you personally, but I’m going to laugh my ass off when it goes down in flames and FAPP wasted all that money and effort on a lost cause.
Erin, there just ain’t no way that you could ever be ugly, no matter what.
All good thoughts, warmth, and golden murmurs of healing to you.
Facial stuff sure does hurt – so, so many nerves there. Good luck and fast getting better.
Doug
I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree LB. PP is operating a medical clinic. Its profit status matters not a whit. Your suit is doomed, and no offense to you personally, but I’m going to laugh my ass off when it goes down in flames and FAPP wasted all that money and effort on a lost cause.
Posted by: Hieronymous at February 15, 2008 1:33 PM
Pyro, (oops, I mean Hiero),
Although I’m not a plaintiff, I’m familiar enough with the case to say you’re putting the cart before the horse. And we (pro-lifers) have a secret weapon that PP doesn’t – PRAYER.
…………………………………………………………………………
LB,
God bless you for your witness for LIFE!
Heya Janet. Was the Pyro thing supposed to be an insult? Good try?
Anyhoo, good luck with the prayer thing. I guess I’ll have to pull out my bag of dice from dungeons & dragons and see if I can’t roll a +4 deflection spell or something…
Janet — Thank you for your support. I just see this as the right thing to do on both a Pro-life and truth in government basis.
Hieronymous — Yes, we agree to disagree. Let’s see how it all plays out before we start laughing at each other. (I would much perfer to be laughing alongside of you, anyway).
Hi LB. Truth in government is all well and good, and transparency is something we should strive for in our government. On that I absolutely agree.
On the other hand, you’re talking about a local zoning board that isn’t really hiding anything, aside from the absolutely normal and par-for-the-course inefficiency and incompetence of their day-to-day operations….just like every other small government body in the country. Did they make some mistakes? Forget to file stuff every now and then? Highly likely. You’ve heard the phrase “close enough for government work”?
On the other hand, no one has EVER been denied an occupancy permit based on an improperly calculated set-back. You all have no recognizable damages, and your suit’s one leg to stand on (the mis-defining of the PP facility under the zoning code) is broken, has rickets, and osteoporosis to boot.
Your suit is doomed, and no offense to you personally, but I’m going to laugh my ass off when it goes down in flames and FAPP wasted all that money and effort on a lost cause.
Posted by: Hieronymous at February 15, 2008 1:33 PM
………………………….
Heya Janet. Was the Pyro thing supposed to be an insult? Good try?
Anyhoo, good luck with the prayer thing. I guess I’ll have to pull out my bag of dice from dungeons & dragons and see if I can’t roll a +4 deflection spell or something…
Posted by: Hieronymous at February 15, 2008 5:00 PM
……………………………
Hiero,
Just trying to lighten the mood a bit! “Going down in flames” is scary to me. I HATE fires!
Hieronymous —
I don’t think you understand why there are zoning laws. A city or town creates plans for the development of land for the benefit of its citizens. By creating zoning areas, they decide what will be built in particular areas and how those entities are to be built.
Cities and other public taxing authorities derive their main funding through property taxes. Non-profit agencies do not pay property taxes; tyhe do not fund schools or police. Balancing the placement of non-profit entities is part of the overall plan of a city.
In addition, zoning ordinances protect the land owners and citizens of a community by assuring that development of one property will not harm the value of another.
Aurora has zoning regulations and ordinances which all the property owners and developers are required to follow. The City officials, by law, are supposed to enforce these regulations — fairly for all involved.
When a developer would like to create a development that does not align with the current zoning on a piece of land they need to have the property re-zoned or get a special permit. There is a method to follow to get the new zoning or special permit laid out in the Aurora Zoning law. Part of that process involves notifying the public and most particularly the neighboring property owners. Seeing a public notice on an empty lot is not uncommon — a public meeting is listed.
At public meetings, the neighbors and other affected parties are allowed to give feedback to the governing party. The meeting is public and is usually in front of the zoning board or city council. That board then can deliberate on the what that change would be — if the change benefits the community. They need all the information on what is planned and what the affect will be. Then they can permit the change.
This process of re-zoning happens all the time. If a Church wants to build in an area zoned residential, if would need to file its plans, notify the neighbors and post a meeting notice. Neighbors can raise issues — such as increase in traffic, lack of parking or many other things. The City itself may be against having a church placed in an area that was to be a retail zone because of the loss of both property and sales tax revenue. This process however it turned out, would be public and deliberated on.
If a developer decided to build a methadone clinic in an area that was slated for a retail or office zone and which also bordered a residential area, they would need to re-zone the area or get a special permit. If they did not devulge the end-use of the property and built the not-for-profit clinic anyway — it would be shutdown.
By creating a ghost organization to purchase the property; getting funding to build a not-for-profit clinic; and then going through the planning/development process saying that a for-profit medical office was to build — it is obvious the PP sought to deceive the public. Whatever their motivations, by using deceit, they have denied the City, the citizens and most particularly the neighboring landowners, their right to due process. Without seeking re-zoning or a special permit, they denied the public the right to comment on the development.
As far as damages, I’m not a lawyer, but the fact that property has become notorious in the eyes of a substantial number of the public, it makes the value of neighboring property take a hit. The fact that taxes can not be collected on that property, it affects the taxrates demanded of all the other taxpayers in the area. In civil law, I don’t believe you need to prove actual damages when a clear violation of law is found.
I hope you understand the issue a little better. I think PP attempted to build a clinic quietly in a place they thought would be protest-proof and to do it they broke the law. This case is about how everyone in Aurora has a right to fair applied zoning and that all developers must play by the rules in place.
The problem with at least one of the examples in your argument LB, is that zoning cannot be discriminatory. Yes, the municipal authority can restrict the class of enterprise/use in a certain zone, but it cannot restrict the type within that class. In other words, while they may restrict all chiruches from a certain area, and give neighboring residents an opportunity to comment and then remonstrate, they cannot restrict, for example, a mosque in an area where they would allow a church or temple.
If the area zoning allows medical buildings, they cannot restrict the type of medicine – whether that be dentistry, facelifts, or abortions, practiced there.
And this ground has been covered before – claims (from anti-choicers) that abortion facilities attract crowds of (anti-choice) protesters and thus are more disruptive than other facilities are circular and disingenuous.
phylosopher —
There is a difference between a for-profit business (ie. normal family practice or dentist) or a not-for profit agencey (ie. PP). Not for profits are specifically excluded from areas zoned as business areas.
You do understand the difference between a profit making business and an agency that doesn’t make a profit don’t you? It is clearly outlined on the zoning maps and detailed on the deed for that piece of property that it is a business district — not zoned for a non-business (ie not for profit).
The only discrimination involved in this matter is that the city has allowed this particular agency to sidestep the rules everyone else has to follow.
We are trying to encourage Rick Lawrence to run for Mayor of Aurora. He has already proven to be fair, honest and has done his part to hold the city officials accountable.
Please check out:
SeeRickRun.com
Erin,
What did you hit? Careful driving if your taking pain meds. Especially don’t drink any alcohol or sleepy time might come while your at the wheel… and that could turn out almost as bad as a visit to PP.
Many Pro-abortion adherents don’t believe fetuses are fully human.
LB, perhaps, depending on what is meant. As far as just genetics, there’s really no argument, yet sentience, emotion, cognition, etc., can be said to go into a “full human,” and obviously thinking of it like that would have development bringing changes.
Doug, what is sentience? Is sentience a physical thing or a spiritual thing or both?