Weekend question
This week Oprah and People magazine introduced the world to what most news organizations have mislabeled a pregnant “man.”
In reality Thomas Beatie is a woman who had her breasts removed and injected herself with testosterone to take on male characteristics. She became pregnant by artificial insemination with the help of her female “wife.”
On Friday, in a discussion of potential psychological ramifications for the baby, Good Morning America co-host Chris Cuomo said, “[B]iology aside, it is all about love of this child and as long as that’s present, everything else is really going to be normal.”
Do you agree that the traditional parental model – married man and woman – are inconsequential to a child’s well-being as long as there is love?
HT GMA quote: NewsBusters]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I’m not sure how I feel about this. I agree that love is most important, yes. Better to have two female or two male parents and love, than a male and a female, and no love. Yes, absolutely.
However, I do think the substantial presence of both genders in childrearing is important for children of both sexes. I think when a strong, constant, father-like male or mother-like female presence (and I mean constant, like living in the same home – not just occasional contact with other relatives or friends) is lacking in a child’s life, there will be consequences and attempts to fill those gaps. Those attempts are not always healthy or well-thought out in children, adolescents, or even young adults.
S.
“Do you agree that the traditional parental model – married man and woman – are inconsequential to a child’s well-being as long as there is love?”
NO, because that is God’s plan.
Chris Cuomo? a big lib like his Pro-abort Dad Mario.
does anybody really question the liberal agenda of the MSM now? This is unbelievable. Talk about confusing young people, by the way they reported this story, one would think a miracle happened and a real man is pregnant.
I don’t think it is so cut and dried. Yes, a lot of situations in life would be ideal, i.e. a stable two parent home, no crime, no drug addiction, no natural disasters, but life just isn’t ideal.
Children raised in loving two parent homes with every advantage have squandered their lives. Children raised in the most horrendous of circumstances have grown into outstanding adults against all odds.
Would I prefer to see a child placed with a single adult rather than shuttled from foster home to foster home? Yes. Do I have a problem with a lesbian couple adopting a crack damaged child(no thanks to her heterosexual parents)and providing her with care, love, and a home? No. I think the most touching story I read was of a pair of gay men who adopted AIDS infected babies and cared for them. Many of these babies would die shortly afterward but at least they were loved and cared for. Some of the children thrived under their care and did well.
I think there are just too many variables and exceptions and life is not so simplistic.
Yes I do agree–conditionally. Of course I believe that same-sex couples or whomever should be allowed to have children of their own–obviously. However, it is psychologically important for children to have both female and male role models. Especially for boys to have a male and girls a female. So same-sex couples should take care to socialize with other people and let their kids bond with someone who is not of their sex.
So same-sex couples should take care to socialize with other people and let their kids bond with someone who is not of their sex.
Does being “both” sexes count? Who are these kids supposed to bond with to get “the other” influence?
MK: I don’t know if being “both sexes” counts. I haven’t read anything on it. I imagine as of now the research is very limited. As for who the kids are supposed to bond with, I would say a friend of the family or something. Every situation is unique.
Mary: Oh my gosh. That is a really good answer. I completely agree with you.
Leah, 9:16am
Thank you. I appreciate that.
While I have you here: Do you recall our discussion on slavery and indentured servitude?
I don’t know how I overlooked it at the time but my grandmother and her sisters were indentured servants, though not formally viewed as such.
It was a common practice in their era to farm out the children of poor families unable to provide for their children to families that could. Actually a centuries old practice with both adults and children. The children would be fed and sheltered, but expected to work, and very hard, for their keep. My widowed greatgrandmother was forced to do this with her daughters.
My grandmother and her sisters often spoke of how difficult their lives were, often working in the fields for long hours or functioning as domestic servants. The only alternative was to go hungry.
I think a child thrives on the love of a father and the love of a mother. Each parent plays different roles in the child’s life. Each parent brings gifts that the other can not bring. Males and females think differently and act differently. A child can grow up without a male or female parent, but this is not the ideal situation. Similarly, a child can grow up and not eat a healthy well balanced diet, yet as long as he or she eats, she will grow up. I think the ideal is for a male and female parent to nurture the child, and the ideal is for kids to get well balanced meals as they grow up. In short, I view that both the father and mother together bring balance to the child – of course this needs to be done in love.
I think all that matters is love. As long as the child is raised in a loving home where the parents (be they gay, straight, or transgendered) love and respect each other and they love and respect their child, then who cares?
This is one of those questions which is going to get the following answers:
-People who believe that men and women are equal in dignity but that they are not the same, and have deep differences – physically, emotionally, and spiritually – will say that a child should have father and a mother.
-People who believe that men and women are the same, and that gender is arbitrary, will say that it doesn’t matter if a child has two fathers or two mothers.
The only truly debatable point here is whether or not a child is better off with no parents or with two fathers/mothers.
jasper said: “Chris Cuomo? a big lib like his Pro-abort Dad Mario.”
“Mario, senta a me…tu sei proprio uno sfaccim!” -Bob Grant
How is “love” defined?
Agape, eros, or fileo?
Divine love is agape love which is not about feeling but about doing what is right for another.
I see about three or four or five commandments beign broken by this relationship so I doubt this pair has any regard for the Gospel or teachings of Jesus Christ.
Hence, the resulting child will NOT be brought up in the “nurture and admonition of the Lord”.
Therefore, they are not loving the child as God would (agape). It is an abominable relationship!
In anticipation of repsonses to my post…..yes, any relationship that does not reflect the Gospel and teachings of Jesus Christ is an abomination to Christ.
At least with a normal man/woman marriage, the bad choice not to bring up a child “in the nurture and admonition of the Lord” can be overcome by repentance.
In this female/female relationship repentance would have to include an abandonment of the relationship since one cannot simply repent and then remain in such a perverted condition.
Do you agree that the traditional parental model – married man and woman – are inconsequential to a child’s well-being as long as there is love?
I do not agree. I think God set up the parental model for a reason….because He loves us and wants the best for us.
When we CHOOSE to deviate from God’s plan for us, there are ALWAYS problems and negative circumstances that arise.
I think that a child needs love, of course, and I’m not saying that a homosexual couple cannot love a child. That would be ridiculous!
However, there is so much more to raising a child than just on love alone. Morals, lifestyles, role models, etc. are passed along to the child via their parents and also their environment. The bible is clear on homosexuality being an offense to God. I cannot understand how a homosexual couple can offend God and raise a child in that environment and expect “all to be well” simply because they love the child.
To me, at least, it’s showing the child that you can love other people while not obeying God, and all will be ok anyway. God isn’t important, only our needs and wants are! It’s just one more instance in where God is being taken “out”, and man’s so-called “wisdom” is put in its place.
It doesn’t work like this. The main role of a parent is to teach a child about God, and make Him the focus point on thier lives. Then, everything falls beautifully into place.
The “world” and “worldy ways” will pass. Eternity is what we are living for and that should be the focus of parenting. God’s wisdom is passed along to the father…”man of the house”, who passes it down to his wife and children. The homosexual parenting model can’t do what God planned. The male brain and the female brain work in two totally different ways!
Check out the brain differences in the table on this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Female_Brain
I know there’s many, many more websites and scientific data that show these differences. My point, though, is that a child being raised by a homosexual couple will be missing some type of natural child-raising due to the differences in the male and female brains.
HisMan, your ideas are so weird to me. I don’t think I ever will understand them. =/
As for raising a child, yes, I think the most important thing is to provide love. However, I do believe it is still important to provide a close male/female role model in a child’s life, and I believe a truly transgendered person does count.
I dont believe its essential. I believe a child can grow up just fine without the traditional ‘family’ of mother, father and siblings. But my concern for the case mentioned is what I personally perceive to be serious emotional and mental instability on the part of the person who is pregnant.
But my concern for the case mentioned is what I personally perceive to be serious emotional and mental instability on the part of the person who is pregnant.
TR,
That’s a great point! And based on your other posts regarding this situation, I agree with your concern. Do you think that other homosexual couples that have children in a similar situation all have emotional and mental instability also? Or, do you think that it’s case by case. If you do think it’s case by case, what would be the differences in those who have a child in a similar situation than this one?
My niece Gina’s husband Sean Cooper has been in a coma for five days. He is only 40 years old and a member of the Mormon church. Please pray that God miracualously intervenes and heals Sean so that he makes a full recovery soon, without any damage. Pray that my niece Gina, a Catholic, is strengthened through this and they both find a stronger faith in Christ.
This is a shock to all of us as Sean was a college football player and as strong as an ox. He is also a super nice young man and totally devoted to my niece. Please, please pray for them.
But my concern for the case mentioned is what I personally perceive to be serious emotional and mental instability on the part of the person who is pregnant.
TR,
That’s a great point! And based on your other posts regarding this situation, I agree with your concern. Do you think that other homosexual couples that have children in a similar situation all have emotional and mental instability also? Or, do you think that it’s case by case. If you do think it’s case by case, what would be the differences in those who have a child in a similar situation than this one?
Posted by: JLM at April 5, 2008 12:50 PM
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No, I dont think thats quite the same. I think a kid can grow up having ‘two mommies’ or ‘two daddies’ and be ok. They are going to grow up in a different KIND of world and will understand their parents did something ‘different’ to have them, but they also will know they were wanted very very much, but if the parents are stable and loving I think they’ll be fine. In this case we have a kid who is going to have to adjust to the fact that is ‘daddy’ gave birth to him which is going to be bizarre enough, but I think the kid will ALSO grow up with at least one parent who is seriously a couple of tacos shy a combo platter.
HisMan,
Will do!!! Please keep us updated on his progress, ok?
HisMan what happened? What put him in a coma?
Stephanie:
Are you a believer?
I defer to JLM becasue she does a much better job at speaking feminese than I do. Her last post essentially said the same thing but in terms I think you could understand.
TR,
Thank you for the response. But what makes you think that this “man” is unstable emotionally, and other “two women” homosexual couples (ie., the one that takes the “man role”) that have children are not?
Do you agree that the traditional parental model – married man and woman – are inconsequential to a child’s well-being as long as there is love?
As long as there is love, familial and financial stability, and good parenting technique: absolutely.
TR:
Not sure. The other morning my niece couldn’t wake him up.
I guess he was in a car accident a few years back and they aren’t sure if that accident resulted in some unknown brain damage.
This certainly would be tragic. They are so in love.
Again, I covet everyone’s prayers today as we are told by the nurses that 5 days is kind of a pivitol point.
I’ll keep you guys posted.
I know God is a good God and whatever happens will be for the good even though it’s hard to understand.
And Jill,
This week Oprah and People magazine introduced the world to what most news organizations have mislabeled a pregnant “man.”
News organizations have made no mistake: Thomas Beatie is legally a man.
In reality Thomas Beatie is a woman who had her breasts removed and injected herself with testosterone to take on male characteristics. She became pregnant by artificial insemination with the help of her female “wife.”
No need for the quotes, Jill. Thomas Beatie is legally a man, legally married to his wife.
TR,
Thank you for the response. But what makes you think that this “man” is unstable emotionally, and other “two women” homosexual couples (ie., the one that takes the “man role”) that have children are not?
Posted by: JLM at April 5, 2008 12:59 PM
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Its the contradiction in insisting she ‘is a man’ but still wanting to give birth to a child. She obviously still views herself as female at some level. There is the admission of a very unstable early life. Those two issues suggests to me emotional instability. There is also the matter of turning the pregnancy into a side show. I think gay people can be perfectly stable and emtionally healthy whether they are male or female. I think they can be great parents and raise perfectly healthy children. But I think in this particular case the mother is in a lot more need of a good therapist than an infant. As Ive said before, this is my personal opinion.
I know God is a good God and whatever happens will be for the good even though it’s hard to understand.
AMEN to that!!!
HisMan, your entire family is also in my prayers, as I can only imagine the strength and comfort that that you guys need during this time, that only God can provide.
Jill:
Really in order to answer this question we must all agree on what type of love you are talking about.
If agape love, the answer is absolutely NO.
If eros or fileo love, then maybe, but then who cares, no eternal significance.
If we takes God’s defintion of love out of the issue what’s the difference, why ask the question?
HisMan,
My thoughts and best wishes are with your niece’s husband. My first suspicion on what may have happened is a ruptured cerebral aneurysm. It usually strikes out of the blue on otherwise normal healthy people, often young like your nephew. It was always the first thing we suspected in situations like this.
I’m sure the hospital would diagnose this rather quickly though. A stroke from a blood clot or vessel breakage would be another possibility, but not likely given your nephew’s age.
Has the problem been diagnosed or have you just not been informed of the diagnosis?
TR,
Thank you. That clarifies it better for me. And I agree that the needs of this man/woman, needing to be “watched” by millions, is quite disturbing.
Thomas Beatie is legally a man, legally married to his wife.
Oh well, I mean if it’s LEGAL, then that’s all right. Legal equals “right”, no? Cuz everything that’s “legal” is good!
TR,
Thank you. That clarifies it better for me. And I agree that the needs of this man/woman, needing to be “watched” by millions, is quite disturbing.
Posted by: JLM at April 5, 2008 1:11 PM
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That makes me uncomfortable too. I cant help but wondering ‘Is this being done just to get attention?’ and I suspect in part that it is. I wouldnt prevent this from happening but I cant help but think the child is going to be born into a family where they have one unstable parent and possibly two unstable parents.
TR,
I agree.
Hey, I had another thought about this…when I was growing up, I had to deal with ONE mother with PMS…it was rough. This child has to grow up with TWO!!! Double the PMS!!! That cannot be fun!
TR 1:18PM
Concerning attention. I read of a few other couples who did the same thing so this isn’t a first. They preferred to keep it private to protect themselves and their children.
So what’s with this pair? Are they expecting adulation?
I don’t know why people feel they have to broadcast their business to the world, and then cry and moan when they are harassed or “judged”.
HisMan I will pray for him, for your whole family.
My friend’s father was just an awful womanizer. I think He turned her off towards men forever. She probably would have been better without him.
All you need is love.
If someone was going to abort because say, the father would leave them if they had the child, I would say just have the kid. You’re the mother as long as you love the kid they’ll be fine.
Oh well, I mean if it’s LEGAL, then that’s all right. Legal equals “right”, no? Cuz everything that’s “legal” is good!
mk, it’s silly of Jill to blame news organizations for “mislabeling” Thomas Beatie’s gender and marriage when they are clearly only reporting the legal facts.
Thomas Beatie legally is a man, and legally is married to his wife. The fact that you disapprove doesn’t make it not true.
If someone was going to abort because say, the father would leave them if they had the child, I would say just have the kid. You’re the mother as long as you love the kid they’ll be fine.
JLM:
Hey, I had another thought about this…when I was growing up, I had to deal with ONE mother with PMS…it was rough. This child has to grow up with TWO!!! Double the PMS!!! That cannot be fun!
Thomas Beatie will resume testosterone injection after his pregnancy, so he will not have a menstrual cycle. And his wife has had a hysterectomy, which means that she does not menstruate, either.
TR,
I agree.
Hey, I had another thought about this…when I was growing up, I had to deal with ONE mother with PMS…it was rough. This child has to grow up with TWO!!! Double the PMS!!! That cannot be fun!
Posted by: JLM at April 5, 2008 1:21 PM
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She was taking testosterone – would that keep her from having a period etc ? I know they said she had to stop taking testosterone during the pregnancy. That would be true of lesbian couples though – and typically if women are in close proximity they wind up having periods at the same time. Mother was one of 8 girls – all had an ‘attitude’ in the best of times – I always wondered if grandpas and one uncles hunting trips were scheduled around that time of month for his wife and 8 daughters –
My daughter’s wayyy better off without her father.
Let’s face it, life isn’t this cookie-cutter where everybody grows up with a perfect mommy and daddy, but if you have people in your life that love you and take care of you, then THAT is what is most important.
I think living in an unhappy relationship is far, far worse on your children then living in one that is unconventional based on society’s standards of “normal.” It is important for children to see relationships that are happy,committed, and have good communication. They do learn through watching their parents relationships how to have relationships themselves. That’s why daughters of abusive relationships are more likely to get involved in abusive relationships. That’s how they think relationships are and how people act in them. So if the relationship is a healthy one, I do not think it matters as much whether it is heterosexual or homosexual.
I do,however think it is important to have good role models of BOTH genders for the child to look up to. My daughter may not have a good father, but she has a GREAT grandpa, and 3 great uncles…so I don’t think she’s lacking in a positive male role model. I knew having all those brothers would come in handy someday. :)
My youngest sister in law had a baby at 16 – they got married but divorced soon after. She went back home to live with her mother. The baby grew up with a house full of people who loved him. He had 3 uncles who were good role models. He had two aunts and a grandmother who helped take care of him when he was small. We were in the AF so didnt see him all that often when he was small but he seemed a happy baby when we were around him. He did grow up to be the bassist in a very popular local metal band but I dont think that should be held against him ….
TR 1:18PM
Concerning attention. I read of a few other couples who did the same thing so this isn’t a first. They preferred to keep it private to protect themselves and their children.
So what’s with this pair? Are they expecting adulation?
I don’t know why people feel they have to broadcast their business to the world, and then cry and moan when they are harassed or “judged”.
Posted by: Mary at April 5, 2008 1:26 PM
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Ive heard of gay couples having children by artificial insemination but never anything like this.
HisMan: You all have our prayers. God bless you.
Thomas Beatie will resume testosterone injection after his pregnancy, so he will not have a menstrual cycle. And his wife has had a hysterectomy, which means that she does not menstruate, either.
Ah, ok. That makes more sense.
But still, even without “PMS” wouldn’t whatever chemical imbalance from both reak havoc on the emotional condition of both? I mean, both bodies are fighting hormonal deficiencies, one way or another, right?
But still, even without “PMS” wouldn’t whatever chemical imbalance from both reak havoc on the emotional condition of both? I mean, both bodies are fighting hormonal deficiencies, one way or another, right?
Posted by: JLM at April 5, 2008 2:23 PM
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Not if the wife kept her ovaries – she’ll be ‘normal’ except she wont have periods. That’s what I did – had my uterus removed when I was 30 because of weird pap smears but I still had my ovaries and didnt go into menopause until after I was 50. Ive no idea what doses of testosterone does to a womans body or psychology though above causing excess hair growth …
Mother was one of 8 girls – all had an ‘attitude’ in the best of times – I always wondered if grandpas and one uncles hunting trips were scheduled around that time of month for his wife and 8 daughters –
TR,
HA! I wouldn’t doubt it!!!
My father definately played an important role in “offsetting” my mother’s PMS. I can’t imagine growing up in a home with “two mom’s” and no “dad”, or “male brain” to offeset the PMS!
does anybody really question the liberal agenda of the MSM now?
No, Jasper, the MSM is mostly owned by Republican conservatives. In fact, there’s only about eight companies that own most of the media in the nation.
I’m sure you know that even though an employee may be liberal, his or her employer will dictate what is published and so forth, so I won’t explain that relationship …
Ive no idea what doses of testosterone does to a womans body or psychology though above causing excess hair growth …
TR,
Well, here’s a sick little bit of what it does to a woman’s body:
After about a half hour of chatting with Beatie, Winfrey brought up the questions everyone wanted answered.
“Let’s get to the penis part,” she said. “Did you have a penis implant?”
“No. Amazingly, hormones are an incredible thing,” Beatie said, explaining that his intake of testosterone enlarged his sex organs.
“It looks like a small penis … and I can have intercourse with my wife,” he said.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/04032008/tv/pregnant_man_visits_oprah_104866.htm
Well…I’m speechless!!!!
Thomas Beatie legally is a man, and legally is married to his wife. The fact that you disapprove doesn’t make it not true.
Earlier I was accused of being “crazy”…
You say that because the “law” says so, this “person” is a man, and my disapproval doesn’t change that…
Yet this “man” is pregnant.
Yeah that makes sense. I mean it’s not possible that “this man is pregnant and therefore is obviously a woman, and the law saying she’s a man doesn’t change that”, right.
Cuz you only deal in “reality”…
This would be the problem with using the status of “legality” to determine the truth.
Life begins at fertilization and all the laws in the world can’t make this untrue.
This is a woman, and is proven because she is pregnant, and all the laws in the world can’t make this untrue.
I think you have your logic backwards. It’s incredible to me that you can actually manipulate reality to fit your agenda. Just what exactly is the difference between men and women, if it’s not at the very least the ability to bear children.
How many hoops are you willing to jump through to justify your view of reality, reality?
Here’s an interesting essay about the domination of the liberal media.
How many hoops are you willing to jump through to justify your view of reality, reality?
Hoop-jumping makes me tired, that’s why I stick with the truth.
HisMan, your posts are so friggin awesome!
I will keep Gina and Sean in my prayers. God love you.
Bobby, I hope Sean recovers too. But, please don’t encourage those rantings…..
“I see about three or four or five commandments beign broken by this relationship so I doubt this pair has any regard for the Gospel or teachings of Jesus Christ.
“Hence, the resulting child will NOT be brought up in the “nurture and admonition of the Lord”.
“Therefore, they are not loving the child as God would (agape). It is an abominable relationship!
Posted by: HisMan ”
Is love(and fear) of the Lord really the test of a good parent????
But still, even without “PMS” wouldn’t whatever chemical imbalance from both reak havoc on the emotional condition of both? I mean, both bodies are fighting hormonal deficiencies, one way or another, right?
I’m not sure what you mean. If Thomas is taking testosterone injections, he’ll be more likely to act like a man… unless you think being manly is an emotional condition, haha.
I wanted to add to this hormone discussion… Not all women experience intensely emotional and painful PMS!! (like me, if I didn’t get sleepy the day before my period I’d have no other way of knowing it was coming … and my sleepiness doesn’t really affect others around me, lol)
My older brother however, most definitely gets some kind of PMS. He gets emotional and moody and generally acts like a jerk.
And to the original question posed… No, I don’t think a child has to grow up in a traditional household. Single parents have been raising their children with one role model for years! At least this kid will have two parents and twice the love.
However, I do agree that outside role models (both male and female) are important to shape the child’s perceptions of proper and kind human interaction.
It takes a village!
No, traditional (male & female) marital/parental models (which do not necessarily include abuse, btw) are not inconsequential. Ideas always have consequences; good ideas, carried out, have good consequences, and bad ideas, if acted on, have bad consequences.
It is natural for parents to love their children, but it is not natural for power-seeking governments (aka, “big brother”) to love anyone. That is why the campaign to reduce/redefine/destroy the traditional nuclear family is so essential to a totalitarian government, e.g., a slave system.
Proper love and fear of God are the beginning of wisdom and so are the basis of being a good person, whether one is a son, daughter, friend, husband, wife, father, mother, boss, employee, etc.
Oh, and Hal, just because you can’t handle hearing it doesn’t mean it doesn’t need/deserve to be said. God Himself advocated that children be brought up in biblical nurture and admonition.
If you want those of us who believe this to accept your word over His, then go create your own universe after the pattern established in Genesis 1, complete with unique, original plant and animal life, environmental factors, etc. Prove to us that you did it all yourself and that is it superior to the one we have, and then you can talk to us. I think that’s more than fair enough.
@Edyt; I have heard of “male PMS”. “Male menopause” exists too.
Brian, John and HisMan- good posts.
HisMan I will add my prayers too – full recovery, lets pray!!
Study after study demonstrate what we all know – a man and woman are what produces an emotionally stable adult, even in high conflict marriages.
Both sexes have their roles in the physical, emotional and psychological development of a child. I’m a great mom but I can’t be a dad to my kids no matter how hard I try.
mk —
Earlier I was accused of being “crazy”…
I don’t know anything about that.
You say that because the “law” says so, this “person” is a man, and my disapproval doesn’t change that…
I say if you have a problem with Mr. Beatie being called a man, take it up with the law. Blaming the press makes no sense.
Is the pro-life movement now going to fight the law that allows people to change their gender?
czech —
It is natural for parents to love their children, but it is not natural for power-seeking governments (aka, “big brother”) to love anyone. That is why the campaign to reduce/redefine/destroy the traditional nuclear family is so essential to a totalitarian government, e.g., a slave system.
The United States is governed By the People, For the People. There is no totalitarian campaign to destroy the nuclear family. Come on out of your basement — it’s safe out here.
If you want those of us who believe this to accept your word over His, then go create your own universe
It sounds like you’re the one advocating totalitarianism, here. No thanks. If you want to live by your religion, that’s fine by me, but leave the rest of us out of it.
Hal:
It is not we as fallen creatures who define anything. God does the defining via His Word, His written revelation of Himself to us, His creatures.
His word says in Proverbs 1:7 that “7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,
but fools despise wisdom and discipline.” As Christians mature and grow in love they realize that God is not to be feared but rather “perfect love casts out all fear”. Look if you don’t fear a God who holds your destiny in His hands, how can you even begin to believe anything He says! Unfortunately as fallen creatures and with satan trying to decieve us, what other means does God have to reach us but the fear of Him, especially if we reject the ultimate expression of His love towards us, His Son? To reemphasize, fear is not the desire of His heart towards us as He states, “perfect love casts out all fear”. He simply wants relationship with us so He can love us more fully.
I obey Him because I love Him.
So Hal, it is not I who define what true wisdom is but God. You can believe it and flourish towards life or disbelieve and spiral into destruction, it’s your choice. I choose to live. Join me.
Now, God’s word also says things about marriage and how we are to raise our children, etc., etc.
We can choose not to believe but observation and history shows us what happens to people’s lives when they do not obey God. You don’t have to be a genius to figure this out, however, you do have to be somewhat honest.
To all, thanks for your kind remarks regarding Gina and Sean. We’ll be going to the hospital tonight and I will post his condition to you later.
What, does the media think we’re a bunch of f*cking retards??
A man cannot have a child, a woman can.
So what if I got surgically implanted horse junk and hooves and starting eating hay?… Am I a f*cking horse now???
If you want those of us who believe this to accept your word over His, then go create your own universe after the pattern established in Genesis 1, complete with unique, original plant and animal life, environmental factors, etc. Prove to us that you did it all yourself and that is it superior to the one we have, and then you can talk to us. I think that’s more than fair enough.
Reality czech…awesome!!!!
MK 2:47 exactly!
man, woman, who cares? They’re having a baby. Don’t you guys love that? Better than the first pregnant man aborting isn’t it?
Better than the first pregnant man aborting isn’t it?
No such thing as a pregnant man, Hal.
reality
the FACTS are: “Thomas” Beatie is a woman who “partially” thinks she’s a man (as she decided NOT to have her uterus removed), who has mutilated herself and is in a same-sex relationship.
Those are the REAL facts.
All the other “facts” are made up by Beatie and partner to fit their own “reality” (there’s that word again!).
Reality needs a dose of reality. Seriously.
I agree with the other people who say not to blame the press.
We can’t report that Thomas is a female if he is legally considered a male. Despite whether or not he has a uterus, it’s not correct (as noted in our stylebooks).
“gender identity: An individual
When writing about a transgender person, use the name and personal pronouns that are consistent with the way the individual lives publicly.
This would be truly laughable if it wasn’t so sad.
Yes, Patricia, treating someone with basic human decency by calling them by their chosen name and gender is “so sad.” And laughable.
I don’t “get” Thomas Beatie any more than you do. I don’t understand why he felt he needed to do what he felt he needed to do. I do know we live in a free country, and what he is doing doesn’t hurt me, and makes him feel better. Life is hard enough without attacking him or laughing at him. If his names is Thomas, then we should call him Thomas. If he identifies as a man, then we should use “he” and “him” when referring to him. Is it really that hard to treat him with that small kindness?
Hal,
No…at least no for me! I don’t appease people by saying something that I don’t believe, or something that simply isn’t true. Now, if her name is legally “Thomas”, well then, that’s her name and the one that I will use. But I refuse to call her a him simply because that confused individual can’t seem to figure it out. Names can be changed legally, but gender cannot. I will call her what God made her….a woman. And if she doesn’t like it, well tough! She is more than welcome to call me anything she would like as well.
Thomas the woman..the pregnant woman.
Can there ever be a discussion of a legitimate issue without talk of religion? I’m just saying, I immediately discount arguments that go straight to religion, because this is not a theocracy.
“I reject your reality and substitute my own.”
-Adam Savage of “Mythbusters”
Yes, Patricia, treating someone with basic human decency by calling them by their chosen name and gender is “so sad.” And laughable.
If I decided that I wanted to be a rabbit, and acted like a rabbit, could I legally change my status to “rabbit” and when people reported about me, would it just be common decency to refer to me as “the rabbit”?
Sheesh, this is just so insane.
Rae 8:15 LOL!!!
“Sheesh, this is just so insane.”
Bethany, God works in mysterious ways.
@Bethany: I wasn’t saying it to mock Thomas Beatie, I was just saying it as a humorous retort to the people telling reality she needs a “reality check” or something…
That, and I found it a humorous quote.
Are you able to chit-chat tonight on MSN?
Yes, Bethany, but we will strip you of your voting and personhood rights and force you to live out in the wild or in a cage.
If you’d like we will call you “the rabbit” but if someone names you otherwise that’s okay too since we humans have the right to name animals what we want regardless of what you decide to name yourself.
@Bethany: I wasn’t saying it to mock Thomas Beatie, I was just saying it as a humorous retort to the people telling reality she needs a “reality check” or something…
I know, I just love that quote!
You’re funny Hal. :)
This is the type of stuff that three young shepherd children were warned about 91 years ago in a small village in Portugal. God help us all.
This WOMAN is confused and most likely suffering from an undiagnosed mental illness. Her mother’s death and father’s absence were likely very traumatic for her.
This poor little child is innocent and will probably not grow up as normal as he or she should.
“This poor little child is innocent and will probably not grow up as normal as he or she should.”
most of us don’t, but we do okay.
“Is it really that hard to treat him with that small kindness?
Posted by: hal at April 5, 2008 7:55 PM”
The greatest kindness that could be done to Tracey is to get her some serious help. Mutilation has never been shown to help this kind of situation, often making things worse. By calling her Thomas we are only helping her to continue to live in her delusional confused world.
This baby should be removed from their “home” and would be if the authorities were so bloody concerned about being politically correct and were truly concerned about the welfare of the child.
This baby should be removed from their “home” and would be if the authorities were so bloody concerned about being politically correct and were truly concerned about the welfare of the child.
Posted by: Patricia at April 5, 2008 9:44 PM
you’re sweet, Patricia. Can you list the criteria you’d employ for removing children from their parent’s care? All parents who you don’t understand, or only transgendered ones?
If I decided that I wanted to be a rabbit, and acted like a rabbit, could I legally change my status to “rabbit” and when people reported about me, would it just be common decency to refer to me as “the rabbit”?
Sheesh, this is just so insane.
Isn’t it though???
I want to be a Canadian goose. I want to go around antagonizing others for my “territory”, or heck, just because! If someone comes near me, I want to be able to peck the living daylights out of them without retribution. I want to walk across the street, into traffic, whenever I want, taking as long as I well please, and I expect all cars to stop. I want to be able to just plant my butt on anyone’s property and decide to live there and raise my young. I want to be protected by the government so that if anyone tries to hurt me or my young ones physically, they will do an obsene amount of jail time immediately, no questions asked.
Where do I start…by declaring that I, now, am a Canadian goose and gluing feathers to my arms?
Patricia 9:44PM
I’m sorry but I cannot go along with you on this one. By what criteria do we remove children? By what right? This is “Thomas'” daughter and until he and his partner are proven to be truly unfit parents, removing the child and placing her in the foster care system, which is less than reputable, would be hard to justify.
I remember a story from WW2 that I heard in my high school sociology class, and I think it applies here. During the Battle of Britain the children of lower class mothers, who mainly lived in the dangerous urban areas, were sent to the countryside for their safety. How wonderful for the children to be away from their mothers, who were mostly streetwalkers, drug addicts, stippers, barmaids, or homeless. Away from the city and out in the good clean country air and best of all away from their disreputable and certainly unfit mothers.
Nine out of ten of the children cried themselves to sleep every night. They wanted their mothers. They wanted to go home, even if it was some one room dive. The children became so homesick they had to send them back to the mothers they were supposedly rescuing the children from.
I think the lesson here is that we cannot assume that children are better off removed from certain types of parents based solely on our own prejudices against the parents.
I guess I’m bringing that icky liberal intellectual bias here…but I took a human sexuality psychology class last year and I’m pretty much convinced that being transgendered isn’t some crazy disease. These people don’t need help; they’re happy, they’re finally settled emotionally. They were miserable and needed therapy BEFORE they accepted who they truly are. They need others to be more accepting. Happy people at peace with themselves=good.
I guess I’m bringing that icky liberal intellectual bias here..
Is all liberal bias considered “intellectual” now?
These people don’t need help; they’re happy, they’re finally settled emotionally. They were miserable and needed therapy BEFORE they accepted who they truly are.
Silly me….and all along I thought that self-mutilation to “get what I want” was a bad, bad thing!
That’s it….Canadian geese don’t have arms, they have wings. I’m chopping off my arms and having plastic wings bolted on so I can FINALLY be happy and FINALLY settled emotionally.
am: Can there ever be a discussion of a legitimate issue without talk of religion? I’m just saying, I immediately discount arguments that go straight to religion, because this is not a theocracy.
Of course there can be, but it may not lead you to the truth.
Mary, 10:09 p.m.
Very good post! Although the whole children crying themselves to sleep every night breaks my heart. I couldn’t imagine having my baby go through that..and you are correct, we can not assume a child is better off without their parents just because we don’t like what the parents represent.
People are just people, we’re ALL just trying to get through the day and do the best we can…it isn’t our job to be judging who or why somebody else loves who they loves. Would it be preferable for you guys that a person who is homosexual never find love? That they go through their life alone?
To me that seems a far worse existence than to be in a relationship that society looks down upon.
I agree with you Elizabeth, whole heartedly. :)
Oy, I’ve heard you are on facebook? Is this a truism?
Elizabeth, I agree with you too. well said.
Oy, I’ve heard you are on facebook? Is this a truism?
Rae, I am working on this….I have had TONS of homework this week so I haven’t gotten it up and running yet, but I will try to tomorrow. Everybody else is on facebook and I only have a myspace..I got rid of my facebook before because well, it got hacked by a stalker I have/had. So I only have myspace now, but I feel all left out of facebook so I’m going to make another one…but shhh…it’s a secret.
@Elizabeth: Okay, I’ll keep it on the DL.
*zippeths lippeths*
Rae,
I heard that!!!!
Hal:
Plain and simple, you are an enabler. Probably as a result of a history of alcoholism or abuse of some sort in your childhood. Your expression of that experience as evidenced by your posts, is just as destructive as the alcoholism or the abuse. Until you take this stuff to the cross for healing you will NEVER be free from it.
You also have a distored view of what kindness is.
This female named Thomas is not helped by telling her lies.
The truth is her behavior will lead her to a hellish destiny.
To help her there is the ultimate expression of utter hatred, perhaps unintentionally
This is not to say she does not deserve love, it’s to say she deserves the type of love which will lead her to Christ.
Hal, I know your intentions are good because down deep I think you have a good heart. However, your heart has been hardened by something and Christ’s unconditional love is the only thing that can soften it. If only for your two daughters’ sake I would just ask that you just say these words to God; “Please help me”. He will if you mean them.
Elizabeth: Ditto.
@JLM: Oh noez! Crumbs!
Ditto to what HisMan?
The stuff you said to Hal?
News flash buddy: No abuse or alcoholism in my childhood, and no hardening of my heart AT ALL. How can one’s heart be hardened when they wish that all people on this earth could experience love? Seems kinda twisted logic if you ask me.
But keep coming up with theories about me..and I’ll keep shooting em’ down. It’s really quite fun actually.
HisMan,
Were you “ditto’ing” Elizabeth’s 11:20 pm post?
JLM,
I couldn’t imagine he would be dittoing that post..I think he was dittoing what he said to Hal for me as well. Eh, whatever.
I just said “dittoing” twice in a sentence and that is not an actual word. I need some help, it is too late at night.
Elizabeth,
I would be shocked if he did…that’s why I asked!
You know, the more we type “dittoing”, the funnier that word looks!!! LOL!
Hehe, this is true, JLM.
I think it is time to make “dittoing” an official word.
It’s late, Hisman is experiencing some real family trauma. Let’s forgive him tonight.
Well, kids, my brain might blow up if I stay up any later.
We shall argue more tomorrow. :)
I shall, Hal.
Hehe, I just rhymed…
The position of the Catholic Church is that children placed in homes with homosexual parents (or transgendered) borders on abuse. I agree.
This is about a child’s right to grow up in an environment, that is a family with a mother and a father is best for them as has been proven by thousands of years of experience and was which designed by God (note: this idea is crucial and I don’t doubt you liberal pap spouters will disagree).
It is not about these two adults right to have a child. A child is not a right, he/she is a gift from God and therefore should be treated as such. It’s quite obvious that Tracey/Thomas and her partner are more concerned about themselves being happy than what growing up in this situation would mean for the baby.
In more reasonable times, these two people would be considered mentally ill. However, we don’t live in reasonable times.
Elizabeth said
Right – that would be Jesus Christ who’s coming to judge the living and the dead. Do you know him?
Actually, if they truly loved God with all their heart, mind strength and spirit, they would repent of rebellion and trust in Him alone, confessing He is Lord, he would come to them and never leave them or forsake them for eternity. That relationship seems to be infinitely more valuable than one which will eventually end in death here on earth.
God is Love. You cannot reject God and expect love. It only becomes a form of idolatry, which is self-worship. I believe that breaks the First Commandment, which Christ upheld.
But as for yourself, if you don’t inform people of their idolatrous ways, then you’re breaking the one that is like it – “Love your neighbor as yourself”.
You too must put God first in your life, before you’re capable of loving your neighbor. I believe that has to do with specks, beams and not being able to see clearly…
Chris @ 7:13
very nicely stated….
For those who think homosexuality is immutable, here’s a personal story which illustrates that what I expressed at 7:13 AM is indeed true.
One more thing I’d like to share – I didn’t go looking for that article – it literally showed up on the very next blog page I opened: Dawn Eden’s Dawn Patrol”
God’s timing is perfect.
” HisMan at April 5, 2008 12:51 PM”
Hisman, my prayers are with your nephew-in-law.
Hey, Chris, that’s too amazing! Good article. Archbishop Burke is a good man and a holy bishop.
I knew a fellow when I was in my 20’s who was an ex-homosexual. He had had a terrible time and an intense struggle with his sexuality (this was during the 1980’s). I often wonder about him and how he’s doing.
It is not about these two adults right to have a child. A child is not a right, he/she is a gift from God and therefore should be treated as such. It’s quite obvious that Tracey/Thomas and her partner are more concerned about themselves being happy than what growing up in this situation would mean for the baby.
I agree..having a child is not a right. But what about people who were married and have kids, and then come out? Should they forfeit their kids? Or should they stay married and just suck it up?
Chris,
Right – that would be Jesus Christ who’s coming to judge the living and the dead. Do you know him?
Right, yeah, I do know that He is the one who can judge us. But you, Chris? Where do you think YOU have the right to judge others and who they love?
Actually, if they truly loved God with all their heart, mind strength and spirit, they would repent of rebellion and trust in Him alone, confessing He is Lord, he would come to them and never leave them or forsake them for eternity. That relationship seems to be infinitely more valuable than one which will eventually end in death here on earth.
So, if you truly loved God, you would be fine with living your life without love here on earth? And people who don’t truly love God are idolatrous for wanting to find another person to love here on earth? So I guess EVERYONE is guilty of that, not just homosexuals, because I hear quite a few straight people who want to find their “soul-mate.” But that’s not idolatrous? Why? Because they want the opposite sex instead of the same sex?
God is Love. You cannot reject God and expect love.
I agree that God is Love…but do homosexuals automatically reject God because they want to find someone to love here on Earth?
I frankly don’t understand how one can turn these into purely black-and-white issues because their religion says so. I am Catholic, but at times I just can’t understand the “I’m Catholic so I say that you, you, and you are wrong because you don’t live your life the Catholic way.”
Oh and p.s. I am not really talking about the people this thread is about..the “pregnant (wo)man”…I was just making general comments about homosexuality. I think the people involved in this article have mental health issues and are seriously confused about a lot of things/looking for attention.
To be honest, my feeling about homosexuality is somewhat conflicted because I don’t necessarily agree with the lifestyle. But there are also people who disagree with interracial relationships…and I KNOW how that makes me feel. So I would never want to make other people in their relationships feel how I have felt.
Elizabeth:
They should seek therapy for the sake of their children. It use to be called self-sacrafice and doing what is right and what is best for the children.
It’s not a “Catholic” position Elizabeth. It’s the most loving and Christian position there is because these tendencies are NOT normal. Homosexuality is a distortion of what it means to be a man or a woman. It is intrinsically disordered and disordered conditions do not lead to happiness.
If it’s not a Christian position, Patricia, whose is it? I don’t really know anyone who is so repulsed by homosexuality other than the religious.
I read in the news a while ago that the leader of an ex-gay organization committed suicide. I guess learning to be straight didn’t really work out for him.
I read in the news a while ago that the leader of an ex-gay organization committed suicide. I guess learning to be straight didn’t really work out for him.
That’s so sad!
PIP: I am with you on this. I am not repulsed by homosexuality and I don’t believe that it is a disorder. I lean Catholic, but the Church’s attitude towards homosexuality is the reason I don’t fully committ.
Elizabeth – your disagreement is not with me, because you too are judging me – telling me I’m wrong. If you understood Christ’s teaching in Matthew 7:1-5 which I referenced via sawdust “specks and beams” you would see that Jesus doesn’t tell us to withhold judgement, but to make a clear judgement. The only way we can do that is by relying on God completely – repenting and throwing ourselves at His feet. If we’ve done that, and we confess freely and openly He forgives us. Matthew 6:14-15 tells us “For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive you.” [NIV]
I think the story I linked to was an excellent illustration of that teaching.
Lastly – perhaps you should read the Bible, because it’s pretty explicit in Roman’s 1:18-32 that homosexual practices (particularly verses 26 and 27) are a clear rebellion against God. I can also point out the prohibitions in the Old Testament, but that teaching (stoning by the Israelites) has been replaced with God’s grace and mercy through Christ’s atoning sacrifice.
So your argument is not with me, but with God’s Word – the Bible, and ultimately God. It’s His Word, not mine.
Shoot me if you will – I’m just the messenger, and it would be nothing different than what the prophets and martyrs suffered. I work for Jesus Christ, and someday He’ll inquire about why I didn’t admonish you. I want to be clear about what I do, because I have several friends and acquaintances who are homosexuals and I would rather Love them with Christ eternally, than to leave them under the curse of the Fall, and God’s eternal wrath. It’s not the lifestyle alone, but what is being taught, which is self-idolatry. But for you to understand why that’s bad, you’ll have to understand why it would be better to have millstones around the neck…
What you choose to believe is up to you.
I am not repulsed by homosexuality either…I don’t fully understand it..but it really doesn’t bother me. I just can’t for the life of me actually believe that people would CHOOSE to be persecuted..that’s why I don’t believe it’s a choice.
Most of my friends/acquaintances are homosexuals..I used to be a musical theatre major, and my brother is on the Joffrey Ballet..sooo, I think maybe that’s why I’m so used to being around gay people that it doesn’t bother me.
Chris,
I am not judging you, just merely trying to understand how you see everything in such a black-and-white way. I don’t need to hide behind the Bible to justify why *I* feel the way I do about things. I also don’t believe I have to condemn anyone else in order to work for Jesus Christ. Since Jesus is Love, I believe in Love and acceptance of people. To Love someone is to accept them for who they are, not tell them they are wrong for being who they are.
And you say you have homosexual friends, so do you actually tell them they are living a sinful lifestyle and they should repent? Cause I really can’t imagine them being your friend after that..and if you haven’t, well then by your own definition or God’s I suppose it is, you are not “loving your neighbor.”
Hey Elizabeth.
“And you say you have homosexual friends, so do you actually tell them they are living a sinful lifestyle and they should repent? Cause I really can’t imagine them being your friend after that..and if you haven’t, well then by your own definition or God’s I suppose it is, you are not “loving your neighbor.””
Chris IS doing the loving thing in this case. What is love? Love is not an emotion or a feeling. Love is an act of the will which desires the highest good for someone. When someone engages in sinful behavior, it is not okay to look the other way and say “I’m OK, you’re OK.” The highest good for all of us is heaven. So if we see someone living a lifestyle that is contrary to not just the gospel but natural law, it is our duty to let that person know that they are endangering their immortal soul.
All that being said, this of course begs the question as to whether or not homosexual activity is intrinsically evil or not. I think this article shows many of the problems with homosexual behavior from a natural law point of view. The article argues along lines that any rational atheist should be able to accept. It is somewhat long, but well worth the read. God love you, Elizabeth.
@Bobby: I glanced at that article and I have to say, those questions were really leading and “begging” a specific answer.
“Do Catholics oppose same-sex marriage because they think sex is dirty? Do they not want others to have fun?”
I mean come on…that is a leading question to an answer that says something on the order of saying, “Oh, sex is only fun in the context of marriage because of sexual complementarity, sex isn’t dirty, but it can be sinful if it is used to achieve ends that are not held by God (by being open to life and being intimate with your partner).”
Yeah, I’m sorry Bobby, I examined the rest of the article…and no. I heartily disagree with everything that article states. All they are doing is taking a pre-fabricated conclusion and stating only the evidence that supports that pre-fabricated conclusion.
Bobby,
I am not an atheist, but thank you.
Chris did not tell me whether or not he told his “homosexual friends” that they were living a sinful lifestyle. I’m pretty safe in saying that IF he did do this, they would no longer be his friend. I highly doubt they would be like “Oh, thanks Chris, I CAN be straight now..all thanks to you!”
So..if Chris did not do this, than by your, Chris, and God’s definition, he is not loving his neighbor.
But you brought up an interesting point Bobby, do you believe that gay people get into heaven? I mean, gay people who openly accept being gay, yet still accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior. Do you think they go to heaven?
Well…I’m speechless!!!!
********************
The professional wrestler Chyna did the same thing – took major doses of ‘roids to bulk up her muscles and I saw a picture of her genitals …. thats about the creepiest thing I have ever seen. Honest. You can probably find pictures on the web – but its flat out creepy IMO. I honestly dont see how anything that tiny could be functional for vaginal intercourse … it looked like a tomato worm wearing a turtle neck sweater ….
This baby should be removed from their “home” and would be if the authorities were so bloody concerned about being politically correct and were truly concerned about the welfare of the child.
Posted by: Patricia at April 5, 2008 9:44 PM
you’re sweet, Patricia. Can you list the criteria you’d employ for removing children from their parent’s care? All parents who you don’t understand, or only transgendered ones?
Posted by: hal at April 5, 2008 9:47 PM
*********************
Anyone not raising their child to meet Patricias standards obviously have no business being left with their natural family. But Patricias idea of treating a child right would include forcing a 12 year old victim of rape to continue a pregnancy. She said so herself. Rape and incest are not valid reasons for abortion. To her any pain and difficult the woman has to go through is justified as long as she continues a pregnancy and gives birth. I personally would consider THAT grounds to have children taken away from parents.
I am not repulsed by homosexuality either…I don’t fully understand it..but it really doesn’t bother me. I just can’t for the life of me actually believe that people would CHOOSE to be persecuted..that’s why I don’t believe it’s a choice.
Most of my friends/acquaintances are homosexuals..I used to be a musical theatre major, and my brother is on the Joffrey Ballet..sooo, I think maybe that’s why I’m so used to being around gay people that it doesn’t bother me.
Posted by: Elizabeth at April 6, 2008 1:52 PM
**********************
I dont believe you can ‘choose’ what attracts you and what turns you on. I personally like men with some heft to them – tall, broad shoulders, thich chests, big hands – I love big hands. I think Mitch Peleggi is one of the sexiest men on tv – he played Skinner on The X Files and now is on Stargate Atlantis. I didnt make any conscious or deliberate ‘choice’ in finding that particular look appealing. Its a gut reaction. I find thin men no fun to hug at all. No rational ’cause’ – just how I feel. I dont believe anyone decides to be gay. They can decide whether or not to act on how they feel. They can decide, if they are bisexual, to gravitate towards one gender or the other. But I dont believe anyone can ‘choose’ to be gay any more than you can ‘choose’ to be straight. And I dont believe you can be ‘turned’ straight any more than you can be ‘turned’ gay.
“But you brought up an interesting point Bobby, do you believe that gay people get into heaven? I mean, gay people who openly accept being gay, yet still accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior. Do you think they go to heaven?
Posted by: Elizabeth at April 6, 2008 2:32 PM”
Elizabeth: I’ll let God’s Word answer that for you in 1 Cor 6:
“9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”
Chris and Bobby, keep fighting the good fight.
@Texas Red: I know who you’re talking about! He was so *awesome* on the X-Files, I had no idea he was on Stargate…makes me wish I had cable…
“David Duchovny, why won’t you love me…” -Bree Sharp
I believe that in the context of the scriptures some of the judgmental holier than thou self righteous Pharisees who pose as christians are going to get a big wakeup call on judgment day.
Me either, TR.
People used to make jokes about how I only like black guys…which frankly, just isn’t true. If I find a white guy who is attractive to me, I’d date him…I just happen to be very attracted to darker skin. I don’t really know why, I just find the complexion of darker skin very attractive. I HAVE had white boyfriends who I have been attracted to, but I just seem to prefer darker-skinned men. I stopped analyzing myself a long time ago about that, and just figured, it’s what I am attracted to. The reason I used to analyze myself over it, is because people used to say “Why do you only like black guys?” or “This is Liz, she only likes black guys.” (NO JOKE, people actually say stupid stuff like that)
But I really couldn’t see forcing myself to be attracted to someone who I just frankly, am not just to appease society.
@Bobby: I’m sorry if I sounded really…jerk-y in my post to you in response to that article you gave me, that was not my intent.
I notice that when I ask people directly their opinions on things like this, they quote Scripture. Can you really not answer for yourself? If YOU don’t believe gay people go to heaven, then SAY SO! I have plenty of formed, logical opinions that I don’t have to quote anyone else for. I have my own opinions and have no problem saying them. I know Bobby, Chris, and HisMan are intelligent, so why not answer these questions IN YOUR OWN WORDS!
Rae, my friend, hello. The question and answer format of the article is just so people can browse it easier. Yes, some questions are leading, but in regard to even the first question you mentioend, I think if we were to ask our friend reality whether or not she thought that the RCC views sex as dirty, she would say yes. So I don’t think even that question is that far fetched. But there is a lot of other important info in the article. The most important pointing out the fact that homosexuality is never life giving. So I think that anyone would agree that if one rejects artificial contraception, as a corollary, one must reject homosexuality because every homosexual act is contraceptive. God love you, Rae.
I’m gonna address Elizabeth’s post too, but please please please please note that I (and more importantly the RCC) distinguish between someone with same sex attraction and one who performs homosexual acts. Whenever I discuss homosexuality, I always refer to those who actually act on their homosexual impulses, not those who are attracted to people of the same sex but who do not act on it. I am attracted to many women who are not my wife, but I do not sleep with them (by the grace of God alone). So the distinction is important.
Also, I have nothing but love for homosexuals. I sympathize greatly with them. I can’t even begin to imagine how difficult it must be to struggle with same sex attraction. But it is a cross to bear. And in bearing that cross there is power.
Now Elizabeth, I did know you weren’t an atheist. I know you’re a Christian, but I was just trying to illustrate the fact that I believe that the condemnation of homosexuality is not a religious issue or something that only Christians should believe because “God said so.” I believe that an atheist who studies the arguments fairly will come to the rational conclusion that homosexuality is disordered.
“do you believe that gay people get into heaven? I mean, gay people who openly accept being gay, yet still accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior. Do you think they go to heaven?”
Well, I’m not sure about the part about “accepting Jesus as personal Saviour.” Certainly that is important, but as Catholics, Elizabeth, there is more to salvation than “accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour.” But, the question is akin to asking if an adulterer goes to heaven or a rapist or an abortionist. Only God knows. Objectively speaking, these sins are grave matter which cuts off sanctifying grace from God. However, only God knows their culpability and level of knowledge. So I don’t make judgments as to who goes to heaven and who doesn’t. That’s God’s business. But I can say that it is grave matter, which is very serious business. God love you.
“@Bobby: I’m sorry if I sounded really…jerk-y in my post to you in response to that article you gave me, that was not my intent.”
Of course not, my friend. I know it’s a very contentious issue, very emotionally charged, with intelligent, well-meaning people on both sides. It is hard to discuss, especially when such good friends are on the other side :)
@Bobby: I hate putting you on the spot, but why would God create something he knew would be considered “disordered”? Why would God create something that would go against natural order?
Again, the “no life giving stuff” that also goes for infertile straight couples, but apparently all that matters is that the partners have different sex organs and so that makes their marriage “a-okay”.
Why does it have to be life-giving? Isn’t adoption “life-giving”? Adoption by gay couples gives those children a chance at a more positive life in a loving home that they would not have gotten in an orphanage. I would say that that is life-giving because of the opportunities you give a child you adopt. My friend was adopted from a South Korean orphanage and that adoption by her infertile parents gave her a chance at life that she never would have had had she never been adopted in the first place.
I do understand what you are saying, Bobby…and thank you for answering in your own words instead of just using someone else’s. And yes, I know there is more than accepting Jesus as one’s personal savior. I can respect that we, as humans, do not really know who gets into heaven and who does not. It IS for only God to decide, and I really can’t stand it when people say they *know* gay people don’t go to heaven or they just quote Scripture. Quoting Scripture doesn’t mean you know that there are no gay people in heaven.
I have much compassion for homosexuals. I have compassion for people, at any level, who suffer, and I do believe that homosexuals suffer a great deal.
Actually, Elizabeth, I haven’t been talked with them lately – we lost touch many years ago, and people move away, but I still consider them friends, and I would really like to see them again. Though they hold atheistic viewpoints, they are not mean or nasty people – in fact quite the opposite, but that doesn’t change what God says, or their unrepentant condition. We had spiritual discussions at the time – if they choose not to believe in sin and God, that is their choice. Can I pray for them? – yes, I do, but election is a work of God, and to be true, it must be free will.
For some reason you believe I’m picking on a particular type of unbeliever, but the only major difference is a major non-stop agenda to teach children that this lifestyle is morally correct, when it isn’t. If you’ve seen the latest issue April 7th of Newsweek, you’ll see the increasing property view of humanity emerging – “Wombs to Rent”. Free markets wish to thrive and homosexual unions are a legalized acknowledgment of a sterile market that can be exploited.
I see it in black and white rather than gray because life and death is black and white. Eternital Salvation is a black and white issue. Jesus Christ – God Incarnate did not leave us any gray options. Either he is who he claims, Lord, or he’s a Liar, the world’s most notorious, or he’s a Lunatic. But if the last one is the case, then most of the world is mad – and dying to love one another.
Elizabeth, 2:57PM
There are people who would view your relationship with a black man and resulting racially mixed child as an abomination in God’s eyes, every bit as abhorrent as homosexuality.
Black Americans established their own churches because mainline churches would not tolerate their presence.
Throughout history people have been singled out as “abominations” based on race, religion, ethnicity, and culture. All too often, and tragically, religious justifications could be found for their persecution, torture, and murder.
My greatgrandmother would never accept the “abomination” of my German Lutheran grandmother marrying an Italian Catholic.
People who were mentally ill, physically or mentally challenged, and those who suffered from genetic anomolies have often throughout history been shunned, brutalized, viewed as being at the receiving end of divine retribution and killed.
What was abhorrent and couldn’t be explained or understood was regarded as “evil”.
In my opinion we have limited knowledge of human sexuality and how it is affected by hormonal factors in the womb, and factors outside. We try to make it simplistic, as our ancestors did, and what we don’t understand or really know much about we brand as “evil” and are afraid of it.
“I hate putting you on the spot, but why would God create something he knew would be considered “disordered”? Why would God create something that would go against natural order?”
That’s quite alright. The answer is to bring about a greater good. Look at the cross. Jesus dying on the cross is simultaneously the greatest good and greatest evil in human history. Jesus on the cross redeemed mankind from our sins and allowed us entry into heaven. Yet, it is also deicide; the killing of God. So why would there be this disorder among people? Why is there pain, suffering, disease, etc etc? It is part of the mystical plan. As I mentioned above, there is power in suffering. There is power in resisting homosexual attraction and putting yourself up there on the cross with Jesus. There is so much wonderful theology on suffering. But the bottom line is, God raises us up to become more like Jesus by allowing us to suffer with Jesus on the cross. Col 1:24 is one of the strangest bible verses, unless one believes and understands the power of suffering. So my point is, a homosexual attraction, when not acted upon, brings one closer to Jesus. Just like when someone who is tempted to look at pornography decides not to, it brings them closer to Christ.
“Again, the “no life giving stuff” that also goes for infertile straight couples, but apparently all that matters is that the partners have different sex organs and so that makes their marriage “a-okay”.”
Right, so the idea is that homosexuality does not have the NATURAL CAPACITY (not yelling, just emphasis) to give life. Ever. One man and one women, a priori, DO have that life-giving capacity. Because a man and a women have the natural capacity to procreate, even an infertile couple engaging in relations is okay.
I think an analogy would be helpful here. Think about why it’s wrong to abort a down’s baby. Well, first of all, why is it wrong to kill anyone? Because humans have a rational nature that separates us from other animals. If some day, aliens who were rational like us came to earth, they would be considered persons because of their rational. But now, a down’s baby will never be rational. But, every single fertilized egg, a priori, has the natural capacity for rational. Because a down’s baby is a member of the human species, he automatically receives the protection that any rational human being would get because of his a priori disposition.
This is the idea behind homosexuality and life-givingness. In my analogy, a down’s baby is like an infertile couple and a cat (or dog or whatever) is like a homosexual couple. A dog or cat can never ever never be a rational creature, just like a homosexual couple can never ever never produce life. They simply don’t have the complementary “tools.” An infertile couple, or sterilized or what have you, does. So that is that in a nutshell. I hope that makes at least some sense. God love you.
Bobby Bambino,
At this point in my life I no longer have the “tools” to produce a child. Would I be forbidden to remarry? I’m not being facetious.
I read of a gay couple who adopted abandoned AIDS babies (produced and abandoned by people with the right “tools). They have saved some of these children from an early death, and provided love and care to children as they died.
Are they not life giving?
There are people who would view your relationship with a black man and resulting racially mixed child as an abomination in God’s eyes, every bit as abhorrent as homosexuality.
Black Americans established their own churches because mainline churches would not tolerate their presence.
Yes, this is true, I remember reading about how interracial marriage between blacks and whites was illegal. This is why I really try to pass no judgement or condemnation on homosexuality. It isn’t my place, just as it isn’t someone else’s place to tell me I should marry a white person to save me from going to Hell.
Hi Mary.
“At this point in my life I no longer have the “tools” to produce a child. Would I be forbidden to remarry? I’m not being facetious.”
No, you could remarry for the reasons I mentioned above. A man and a women have the natural capacity to produce children. And the fact that you can’t bear children but may desire it is a wonderful cross to bear as well.
“I read of a gay couple who adopted abandoned AIDS babies (produced and abandoned by people with the right “tools). They have saved some of these children from an early death, and provided love and care to children as they died.
Are they not life giving?”
What they did was very selfless and obviously very loving. However, we must remember that this world is not “where it’s at.” Nothing is more important than heaven. Period. A few extra years here on earth is dirt compared to eternity with God. Homosexual adoption gives legitimacy to homosexual relations, and hence causes scandal and endangers not only those practicing homosexuality, but also the children whom they adopt. Nothing is worth their eternal souls. All the pain and suffering in the world that these children experience and sadness that they have if they are not adopted does not compare to the pains of hell that they could suffer as a result of being influenced by a homosexual lifestyle.
I don’t mean to take away from the love and good desires of such homosexual couples. I know they are doing only what they feel is right, but I can not in good conscience condone it.
Bobby,
So you view your life here as inconsequential as compared to your life in Heaven? Then why are we even here? Why aren’t we all just in Heaven enjoying our eternity with God?
All the pain and suffering in the world that these children experience and sadness that they have if they are not adopted does not compare to the pains of hell that they could suffer as a result of being influenced by a homosexual lifestyle.
So not only do the wonderful couple who adopted these poor, suffering children go to Hell, then the children who are already suffering from AIDS would as well if they are at all “influenced” by the homosexual lifestyle. What do you mean by influence? Tolerance of homosexuals perhaps?
I can not in good conscience condone dying children to suffer in the streets when there are people who will take very good care of them, just because it doesn’t fit my own idea of what is “normal.”
Oh, and Bobby, I don’t mean to come off as harsh and accusatory in anyway..I am just trying to wade through this issue and find maybe something consistent with my faith as a Catholic and my own humanity.
Elizabeth,
“So you view your life here as inconsequential as compared to your life in Heaven? Then why are we even here? Why aren’t we all just in Heaven enjoying our eternity with God?”
No, but nothing is worth sinning. I don’t say everything in this life is inconsequential, not by a long shot. In fact, our actions in this life determine where we go in the next life. That is why it is so important to avoid evil and scandalizing others.
“So not only do the wonderful couple who adopted these poor, suffering children go to Hell, then the children who are already suffering from AIDS would as well if they are at all “influenced” by the homosexual lifestyle. What do you mean by influence? Tolerance of homosexuals perhaps?”
I never said they go to hell. We went over this before. But they entertain the very real possibility of eternal damnation. By influence I mean cause scandal. Give them the idea that homosexuality is okay. Tolerance of homosexuals is, of course, fine. I tolerate them very much. What I don’t do is accept it and tell them that it is okay.
How can you tolerate something but not think it’s “okay”?
Yeah I guess leaving those babies to die alone is better because they won’t cause scandal.
Seriously, Bobby, I love you, but these ideas seem really whack to me.
God really makes someone a homosexual so that he can bear a cross. Thanks God! That was very helpful! If someone can’t become straight and commits suicide, I guess they are going to hell because not only did they “cause a scandal” on earth but their cross fell off their backs. How merciful of Him.
Also I don’t know one atheist who would reject homosexuality on the grounds that they have the same sex organs. You’d think of all of this talk on spiritual and loving connections then there would be someone to be said of a loving partnership between 2 members of the same sex. You’d think of all this talk on adoption, people should be able to. You know, adopt. No matter what sexual orientation they are.
Wouldn’t children dying in the streets of AIDS cause scandal?
I would think something like that would make God more outraged than a guy who, :gasp: likes another guy.
Bobby Bambino,
With all respect to your faith, I see these men as loving, caring human beings giving love, comfort, and in some instances, prolonged life to children who might otherwise die alone. They were condemned to this fate by heterosexual parents.
I cannot see an issue of any kind here at all.
To me, these men are following the teachings of Jesus.
I have a hard and fast rule not to get into religous debates so I will leave it at that. I thank you for your feedback.
“How can you tolerate something but not think it’s “okay”?”
By tolerate, I mean put up with. I had friends in college who were homosexual and I never shunned them, or yelled at them, or treated them as though they were not human. But I never approved of what they did. It’s like how I know someone who is in an adulterous affair right now. I tolerate his adultery in the sense that I don’t shun him or treat him like garbage or anything like that, but at the same time, I do not approve of what he does, but that does not mean I will stop seeing Christ in him.
“Seriously, Bobby, I love you, but these ideas seem really whack to me.”
Love you too, PiP.
“Yeah I guess leaving those babies to die alone is better because they won’t cause scandal.”
Honestly, if that is the difference between heaven and hell (which I am NOT saying I know) then, yes it is. We (humanity in general) have really lost the sense of suffering that is so important to salvation (obviously now I am speaking as a Christian). We are imitators of Jesus when we suffer, no? It’s a paradox. I highly recommend the apostolic letter by JPII “Salvifici Doloris” (On the Christian Meaning of Human Suffering). The theology of suffering is massive, and beautiful, but as I said above, paradoxical and difficult to understand if one hasn’t thought about it.
“If someone can’t become straight and commits suicide, I guess they are going to hell because not only did they “cause a scandal” on earth but their cross fell off their backs. How merciful of Him.”
I will say this, PiP, that I’m not sure if “converting” someone with homosexual tendencies to heterosexuality is always the best option. Some people may never be attracted to those of the opposite sex, and that is okay. So in the case you mentioned above, “conversion” was obviously not the best decision.
I hate to get in the “last word” but I must get going. I gotta also say, I don’t really like arguing with my fellow pro-lifers. Lately, it has been Catholic vs. Protestant and now it’s this. I really love all you guys, and I don’t like being on the “other” side from ya’ll. (Of course, that includes my abortion-choice friends like Doug, Hal, and Leah as well.) God love ya’ll.
“Anyone not raising their child to meet Patricias standards obviously have no business being left with their natural family. But Patricias idea of treating a child right would include forcing a 12 year old victim of rape to continue a pregnancy. She said so herself. Rape and incest are not valid reasons for abortion. To her any pain and difficult the woman has to go through is justified as long as she continues a pregnancy and gives birth. I personally would consider THAT grounds to have children taken away from parents. ”
Forcing a 12 year old victim of rape to have an abortion is also abusing that child. To kill an innocent baby because of the crime of it’s father does not make the situation better for the 12 year old. In fact, it’s likely that the birth of the child will have a positive effect on the 12 year old by offering a positive conclusion to a very terrible situation. To subject the 12 year old girl to the violence of abortion and have her body violated once again by the abortionist is wrong.
Bobby some very good points (as usual).
The Catholic Church has REPEATEDLY stated that having homosexual tendencies are not in and of themselves sinful, but that acting on those tendencies and promoting this lifestyle are sinful. Tracey and her partner are doing both. In the end, they will be corrupting the very child they proclaim to love, adding to this child’s confusion.
An active homosexual lifestyle is not a healthy stable lifestyle. And of course, homosexuals who struggle with their inclinations are no different from the rest of us, struggling with our various weakness. God doesn’t ask for success, although he certainly gives us the grace to succeed if we ask him. He does ask that we fight the good fight though, and try our best to remain faithful.
Posted by: TexasRed at April 6, 2008 2:43 PM
I just wanted to add a few things…
Homosexuality is not a “disorder” but it is, rather, disordered. There is a difference. There is a natural “order” to the world. The sun comes up in the east and sets in the west. Flowers bloom when it’s warm, and trees go dormant when it’s cold.
Men have certain body parts, women have complimentary ones. The “Natural Order” is that men and women “fit” together in a specific way.
Two men are not “ordered” to be with each other sexualy. Their “parts” are simply not complementary. So far I’m not making any moral judgment, just stating what is meant by disordered.
Next, sex outside of marriage is always viewed as a grave sin in the CC. Marriage is considered a sacrament. Two complementary bodies, fitting together to make “one body”. Both physically, mentally and spiritually.
My son has sex with his girlfriend and I view this as a grave sin. And he knows my feelings on the matter. But he remains my son, and my love for him has not changed on iota. I want him to spend eternity in heaven, but ultimately, this will be his choice, not mine. I can pray, but that’s really all I can do at this point. I certainly don’t bring it up, and I surely don’t treat him any differently. He knows, I know he knows, and the rest is up to him.
I would never tell him that I am “okay” with this.
Similarly, people engaged in homosexual behavior are committing a grave sin. Not being homosexual, but engaging in homosexual sex. Who they are is not what they are doing.
My son has a choice. He has physical feelings and desires and he has to decide whether or not to give in to them. So too, do homosexuals. The desires are not bad, they are “natural”. But this does not mean that they are either good, or good for you.
I would NEVER as a homosexual to try to become heterosexual. That would be a grave error on my part. They are who they are, and personally I think many gay people (usually men) have some extraordinary qualities that are unique to the homosexual personality.
Like any sexual activity however, homosexual sex has a capacity for serious perversion. What goes on in San Francisco at the Folsam Street Fair is a perfect example. The sex itself (heterosexuals too) can become addictive and the “relationship” ceases to be about “love” and becomes all about the sexual act(s).
I love my son. I love him if he’s having sex with his girlfriend sans marriage, and I’d love him if he was gay. But I would never be able to “condone” or give my blessing to either behavior.
I don’t know if this helped or hurt…but I had to have my say.
MK,
If you don’t let homosexuals get married, how can they have the same sort of spiritual commitment, how can they avoid adultery?
MK: This may be a dumb question so please forgive me. Does the Catholic church view premarital sex and homosexual sex as equally grave sins? Does she view homosexual sex as the more serious sin?
MK:
The Bible does not make a distinction between what a person does and what he is.
If you murder you are a murderer.
If you commit adultery you are an adulterer.
If you steal you are a thief.
If you lie you are a liar.
If you have sex with someone of the same sex you are a homosexual.
If you do not DO these things you are not that thing. That is why the Bible not only condemns the behavior but also the people that do the behavior. They cannot be separated and forgiven apart from a relationship with Christ.
There is no such thing as a thief that has never stolen anything.
So, I am really not sure what you are trying to say by your post.
Also, I think you are confusing tendency with temptation. We become stronger over what we resist. I suggest it is not possible to continue to entertain “tendencies” towards homosexuality and, at a minimum, not participate in the acts of homosexuality at least in the heart, which Christ states is just like doing the act.
And this statement is a doozy, “I would NEVER as a homosexual to try to become heterosexual. That would be a grave error on my part. They are who they are, and personally I think many gay people (usually men) have some extraordinary qualities that are unique to the homosexual personality.”
Why then did Christ die MK if not to free us from the bondage of sin?
If a person engages in a homosexual lifestyle thay are in effect practicing sin. The book of Hebrews is very clear about what happens to those that practice sin. It is also very dangerous to teach someone that God does not want them to change or “be transformed by the renewing of their minds”.
MK, this is typical of what happens to someone’s theology went it is not bibliclly based. It becomes of matter of opinion that then turns into doctrine, false doctrine.
Well PiP, they can’t. Not in a sacramental sense.
Personally, I wouldn’t vote against civil unions. I wouldn’t condone them, but I understand that the world is not Catholic. From a Catholic point of view, marriage would be an impossibility…but that’s because of our definition of marriage. A civil union, to gain legal benefits etc, is not “marriage” in a Catholic sense.
The choice basically comes down to doing what God wants or what you want. Many times these are the same thing, but sometimes (like abortion) they are in conflict. That’s when you have to make a decision.
The decision in the short term is whether or not to please yourself in the here and now. But ultimately, the decision is long term. Eternity.
We, as catholics, truly believe that this lifestyle is not what is “best” for these guys.
I understand that you, and others don’t see it this way, I’m just saying, that if the goal is heaven, then short sightedness is foolish. What is best in the long run (heaven) is not what is easiest or most pleasurable in the present. It’s hard to think this way.
I remember the m and m experiment with 4 year olds.
They were left in a room with three m and m’s. They were told that they could eat the three m and m’s and be done, but if they waited, they could have a whole bag. Most of them took the three. It was all about pleasing themselves immediately, even if that meant that they were giving up a “greater good” later…
It’s the same here. How difficult it is to put off something that can please us right now, believing that “later” we will get something better. But that’s the way it is.
I’m not out to judge or punish anyone for making the short term choices however. That’s not my job. But I would certainly encourage the four year old to hold out for the whole bag. Just as I would urge anyone engaging in premarital/extramarital/homosexual behavior to hold out for the “whole bag”…heaven.
@MK: That does make a bit more sense. Still makes me sad though. :( I’m really starting to wonder if I’m “up for” getting confirmed and going back to church because there are somethings I just cannot accept, no matter how they’re worded or explained.
:-/
Hisman,
Why then did Christ die MK if not to free us from the bondage of sin?
Well, you and I, or should I say, the Catholic Church and your faith, do not agree that being gay is a sin. There is nothing sinful in being attracted to members of the same sex.
It is perfectly possible to be gay and celibate.
The sin is in the act. The person is not bad. Their sin is bad.
If a person is gay, but does not engage in homosexual sex, then he is NOT sinning.
Just being gay is not offensive to God. Any more than being short, blind or a midget.
HisMan: The Bible does not make a distinction between what a person does and what he is.
Then, how do you explain that we are made in the image of God, but we still sin?
It is because of this that we believe in the sacraments of the Catholic Church which provide forgiveness and grace.
Rae,
I understand. It seems to go against everything that Jesus stands for, not to be compassionate to others.
But think of this. If a doctor diagnoses a patient with terminal cancer, but chooses not to tell the patient, because it might upset them, is he being kind to that patient?
By saving their feelings, he could doing them great harm. Don’t they have the right to know that they are in mortal danger?
So too, if we care about a person, aren’t we obligated to tell them if something they are doing is endangering them? Not harp on it. Not treat them like less than human beings. But shouldn’t we say…”Hey, just so you know, you’re about to walk off that cliff there!”
The thing is EVERY SINGLE ONE of us is a sinner. And by that I mean we are sinning ALL THE TIME! I’d be awfully lonely if I only hung out with people that never sinned! I couldn’t even be in a room with myself.
But that doesn’t mean that I shouldn’t speak out when I see something wrong. I’m not talking about picketing, or pointing fingers or anything like that. But what kind of a friend would I be if I didn’t at least offer an alternative?
MK,
I do understand your points. I would like to second Carrie’s question and ask, “Are homosexual and premarital sex considered the same grave sins?”
This has always confused me, because the people I think belong in Hell are the kind of people like Hitler and other deeply evil people. The gay people that I know personally are in no way evil, and I certainly wouldn’t ever think that because they are gay that they belong in Hell along with Hitler. I can’t imagine God holds gay people and Hitler on the same level.
@MK: If two people who were gay and were in love with each other but did not have sex, would that be okay? Would it be permissible for them to adopt children?
MK,
my understanding is that the CC considers homosexuality a “psycho-sexual disorder”. By this I take it to mean that the sexual identity of the person has not developed properly and therefore the person is considered to have a medical condition.
It is normal as a person develops to have a period of attraction to members of the opposite sex. As the child develops however, this attraction gradually diminishes and is replaced by a growing attraction to members of the opposite sex.
If you have read other opinions I’d be interested.
And Rae,
There is a Catholic Group of homosexuals that embrace celibacy. They support each other.
What if you met a guy that you really, really liked. And he wanted a sexual relationship? You’d have to make a decision. You know what the Catholic Church would say. Would you say this too makes you sad, because the Catholic Church won’t “let you” sleep with this guy?
The dangers of heterosexual premarital sex, are actually more obvious and thus easier to understand. Babies get made. Abortions happen. You can SEE the bad results. It’s not so clear with homosexuality. But the results are still there…
I do understand your points. I would like to second Carrie’s question and ask, “Are homosexual and premarital sex considered the same grave sins?”
I don’t think He holds gay people and Hitler on the same lever either, but then I’m not God.
While these sins are both sexual in nature and both grave they aren’t really the same sin. The reasons for their sinfulness overlap, yes, but they aren’t exactly the same.
Also, is the gay person having sex as an expression of love? While this is still wrong it’s coming from a different place than say, a homosexual who is simply fulfilling his lustful tendencies…or is the homosexual aware that his behavior is sinful, and doing it anyway? Perhaps he really doesn’t “get it”. This is why it’s so important not to try and guess what is in a man’s heart. This is why I say the behavior is sinful. But a person is not his behavior. There are too many variables. Peoples motivations are complex.
I think the only time a person is truly in danger of not going to heaven is when they outright reject God. Like Hal (sorry Hal). Hal says he wants nothing to do with Him. On any terms. This is his choice. But if a homosexual is struggling with his lifestyle, trying to live a celibate life. Or wanting to, then that can count for a lot…
Rae,
If two homosexuals were living a celibate lifestyle and wanted to adopt children, then I personally see no problem with that. As of fact I think it would be a marvelous testimony of how to live a virtuous life.
I do think that the absolute BEST scenario is for a child to be raised by a man and a woman…but that’s an Ideal situation, and life is not always ideal.
Patricia,
MK,
my understanding is that the CC considers homosexuality a “psycho-sexual disorder”. By this I take it to mean that the sexual identity of the person has not developed properly and therefore the person is considered to have a medical condition.
I don’t know if that is still true. I’ll go look.
But even psychiatrists used to think that it was a mental disorder. I think there is still much that is not known yet.
I myself, believe that most, not all, homosexuals truly are born that way. I have a much harder time with bisexuality as that to me seems to be much more about the sex than about the relationship.
Patricia,
This is what I found…
However, the Church also acknowledges that “[homosexuality
mk:
Paul comfortingly reminds us, “No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it” (1 Cor. 10:13).
This is a good bit of scripture to remember. Thanks!
Janet,
It is because of this that we believe in the sacraments of the Catholic Church which provide forgiveness and grace.
Exactly. None of us is free from sin. This is the beauty of Jesus falling three times. It’s not the falling. It’s the getting back up.
The ability to go to confession, and make a sincere effort to stop the sin, is such a beautiful thing. After a good confession, you are as clean as the day of your baptism. And if you fall again, you confess again, and begin again.
It’s not really about attaining…it’s about desiring to attain. It’s about trying.
Janet,
I love that scripture passage too. I know it seems like being gay and celibate is impossible…but each of us is asked to do something that is difficult. None of us gets a free ride.
It’s the lemonade thing….if life gives you lemons?
We become virtuous by practicing virtue. This means getting into the habit of choosing the right thing over and over.
But conversely, vice is strengthened by getting into the habit of choosing the wrong thing.
Each time you choose to do the right thing, it becomes a little easier to do the right thing again.
Each time you choose to do the wrong thing, it becomes a little easier to do the wrong thing again.
Practicing virtue feeds on itself, but so does practicing vice.
Rae,
I also want to add that if you recognize that sex outside of marriage (be it heterosexual or homosexual) is a sin, then that is all that is asked of you in the Catholic Church. You don’t have to stand on a street corner and scream at gay people.
Actually, it is very commendable that you are so compassionate. The Catholic Church would congratulate you. That is exactly what we are asked to be. Recognize the sin, then move on. Love the person.
Do you think Mother Teresa was going around asking her little souls who they were sleeping with? No way, she picked the worms off of ’em, hugged ’em and prayed for them…
I love Mother Teresa…what a great lady.
Hey Elizabeth,
I hope I answered your questions…
mk:9:43:
Good points! Interesting that you bring up Mother Teresa. She was such an awesome example of Christ’s undying love for all of God’s creatures.
I had a chance to hear Bishop Peter J. Sartain speak today. He has the most wonderful speaking voice. You feel like you’re listening to God. If you ever have a chance, I recommend going to hear him. He spoke of the story of Jesus on the road to Emmaus,and how Jesus is with us whether we are heading to Jerusalem or away from Jerusalem, he’ll always help get moving in the right direction.
On a different note…we talk a lot about compassion for pregnant women (a good thing, of course) on this web site. I recently read in a book by Peter Kreeft about compassion and how it is a good thing, but not a virtue, because it can ignore basic logic and reason. MK, It’s a difficult thing to explain, but I’m wondering if you have read anything on this. He tries to explain the problem with looking at the issue of abortion from a compassionate angle only.
Janet,
I just googled false compassion and there are so many hits I don’t know where to begin! There is a youtube video of Bishop Fulton Sheen giving a talk entitled “False Compassion”…
I’d say try there first.
I’ll try tomorrow to put it into my own words. It’s a great topic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip7pKqfhWeo
Thanks, mk!
MK,
You did…although, I do admit, I feel conflicted in my views of my faith and my views about homosexuality. I just don’t think that God looks at things in this black-and-white fashion that I have seen a couple people do on here. I do believe that God wants everyone, even homosexuals, to find a person to love while here on Earth. Or maybe that is there cross to carry in life..ahh..sometimes I just don’t know..
:/
It is hard for me…I guess all I can do is have compassion for everyone involved. I think that is what God asks of me, well all of us anyway.
Rae,
I just made a facebook, but I can’t find you on there!! I added some other people from this site..so you can look in their friends..it’s under Elizabeth Ryan (my middle name)
Elizabeth,
You’ll have to give us a few more clues…theres a TON of Elizabeth Ryans…lol.
Let me ask you something. You are a single mom. Would you say this is your cross to bear? If so, what do you think God would say if you refused to carry it and just lived off of your mom, neglected your daughter and were sleeping around?
Or look at John McDonnell. Does the fact that he is really ill, give him the right to do any behaviors that he wants to?
I have a single girlfriend. She is an awesome Catholic. She knows that she’ll never get married. This means that she can never have sex again. This ain’t an easy realization. But it is no different than a gay persons dilemma. God requires marriage for sex. So my friend, who chooses God’s ways, will have to forgo sex, probably forever.
I guess what I’m saying is that we ALL have some cross to carry. The question is, will we take it up or step over it? The next question is, what do we really want?
You have to live a certain way now due to you circumstances. My friend has to live a certain way due to hers, and a homosexual has to live a certain way due to theirs. They aren’t special. Their just like everyone else.
As for having a loving partner, are you saying that love is not possible unless sex is involved?
Cuz right there, that tells me that too much emphasis is being placed on the sexual aspect of the relationship. Are you really looking for love, or are you looking for sex? When you cease being able to separate the two, then you know you’re entering dangerous territory.
If you knew your daughters life depended on it, would you, out of love, give up sex for the rest of your life? Shouldn’t you love God at least as much as you love your daughter?
MK:
Some wonderful truisms in your recent posts but I doubt many will like them.
“We become virtuous by practicing virtue. This means getting into the habit of choosing the right thing over and over.”
“Practicing virtue feeds on itself, but so does practicing vice.”
Which is why we say that a person has gone deeper into his sin.
I have a single girlfriend. She is an awesome Catholic. She knows that she’ll never get married.
Has your girlfriend made this decision due to special circumstances? How does she know she will never marry again.
I am a single mother who lives a chaste life. I do it because I believe in the teachings of my faith and because I also believe this is the best example for my children. I would love to meet a great Catholic guy and get married again but so far it hasn’t happened. After suffering through a terrible marriage, sex is the least consideration on my mind. I am looking for a man who will respect me and whom I can respect too.
Being a single mom of 4 kids is a cross to bear, but like you said MK, every single one of us has our own cross. It’s our duty to help each other live with their cross and maybe if we can to overcome it too.
Patricia,
She’s never been married. She’s almost 60 and I think she is just resigned to this life. I suppose if Mr. Right came along, she’d go with it, but she’s not looking. She’s really quite comfortable with the way things are. It was a struggle because she had a major conversion right about the time we met (15 years ago) and she was not living a chaste lifestyle at the time. She had to face alcoholism and her sexual lifestyle in order to fully embrace her faith.
You certainly do have a cross to bear…or rather 4 of them. But as you know, our crosses carried, often become our greatest sources of joy.
I totally understand the desire to share your life with someone. I’d probably have a very difficult time adjusting to singlehood if something ever happened to my husband. But adjust, I would.
As Peter said, “Where else would I go?”.
I certainly wouldn’t give up hope. There is probably an awesome, awesome guy out there, perfectly willing to love you and your kids.
I hear John McDonnell is available…okay, sorry, I couldn’t help it! But I’m telling you, the girl that gets John is the girl that will be treated like a queen for the rest of her life…
Well, this child was treated by the “parents” as a commodity. They wanted one, so this man who used to be a woman decided to become a woman again just to produce this “product”. Why are we worried about what happens to their commodity after it’s born?
“Hoop-jumping makes me tired, that’s why I stick with the truth.”
Amen!
S.
Let me ask you something. You are a single mom. Would you say this is your cross to bear? If so, what do you think God would say if you refused to carry it and just lived off of your mom, neglected your daughter and were sleeping around?
At this point in my life, maybe. However, I don’t really choose to look at it as a “cross.” I suppose if it was compared to people who were single with no kids or married couples with kids, then yeah, I guess it’s a “cross.”
I don’t think God would be very happy about my choices because He gave me the gift of my daughter to save me from my own previous bad choices/behaviors.
As for having a loving partner, are you saying that love is not possible unless sex is involved?
No, this is not what I mean. I mean, let’s say you had a partner that you wanted to spend your life with, but yet you both know there is no sex because homosexual sex is a sin within both of their religion. Is it still acceptable to spend your life and share your love with this person and not a sin?
If you knew your daughters life depended on it, would you, out of love, give up sex for the rest of your life? Shouldn’t you love God at least as much as you love your daughter?
Of course I would….been doing it for 3 years already..but I’ve also been avoiding men as anything more than friends too. That’s on purpose, I have NO time for guys, at least guys my age, on top of school and Gabriella.
And I do see your point, but God’s life isn’t dependent on my not having sex is it? Or do you mean my life with God is dependent on it?
“I am a single mother who lives a chaste life. I do it because I believe in the teachings of my faith and because I also believe this is the best example for my children. I would love to meet a great Catholic guy and get married again but so far it hasn’t happened. After suffering through a terrible marriage, sex is the least consideration on my mind. I am looking for a man who will respect me and whom I can respect too.
Being a single mom of 4 kids is a cross to bear, but like you said MK, every single one of us has our own cross. It’s our duty to help each other live with their cross and maybe if we can to overcome it too.”
Oh Patricia, my heart and prayers are with you. Keep fighting the good fight.
Hi Patricia, Elizabeth and MK,
It’s time for me to pipe-in-here ’cause MK’s trying to get me settled, lol!
It’s true that I have an uncommonly harsh disorder … a cross to bear. But like most people, my crosses are not seen by too many …. part of living on a government pension, is that it makes you financially ‘poor’. (A person can make ends meet, but there is little to spare.) The other obvious one is loneliness ….. this is and has-been a definite difficulty for me … the disease part masks these hidden crosses because it is visibly obvious (it can be thought of as an excuse for loneliness, but this is an evasion that does not ‘solve’ the dilemma.) It is really important to note how wide-spread this is.
Single people often get married (not because they ‘love’ their partner), but because they are lonely. In a few years, they’ll find themselves married + lonely – marriage (having kids) hasn’t solved loneliness.
I really have to put my two-cents in here. I tried really hard to stay away from another “heated” discussion, but again, I feel that a lot of dangerous information is being given here, from a worldly view, because many people here may know homosexuals and want to believe that it’s simply the way they were born or their “cross to bear”.
This is simply not true, unless you deny the Word of God, which clearly states how wicked and detestable homosexuality is in the eyes of God. God did not create a person to be a homosexual. He gave them over to their shameful lusts, which also includes, attraction without sex, to the same sex.
The world wants to change God’s words and meanings into something more suitable to its sinful desires. Nevertheless, the truth stands: The Bible condemns homosexuality as a sin.
I know alot of people don’t want to hear bible verses as an explanation, but if you want the truth on how God feels about it, you MUST look to them.
Lev. 18:22, “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.”
Lev. 20:13, “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them”
1 Cor. 6:9-10, “Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”
Romans 1:25-28, They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator
JLM,
Do you have any homosexual friends or know anyone homosexual?
I never have heard anyone cry and say “I wish I could be gay.” Like it’s someone’s wish when they grow up. I have heard a couple of my friends cry, though, and say “I wish I could be straight.” Doesn’t sound like much of a CHOICE to me.
Let me ask you this…if the Bible did not say so, would you still have a problem with homosexuality?
I never have heard anyone cry and say “I wish I could be gay.” Like it’s someone’s wish when they grow up. I have heard a couple of my friends cry, though, and say “I wish I could be straight.” Doesn’t sound like much of a CHOICE to me.
Elizabeth,
I know it’s very hard to read those scriptures. No one wishes they were gay, I agree. However, God did say that He turns their minds over:
Romans 1:28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
They DO have a choice, Elizabeth. They can heed the knowledge from God, or they can heed their own. They are CHOOSING to do what THEY think is right, not what GOD SAYS is right.
If you have gay friends that are crying out that they wish they could be straight, you have an AWESOME opportunity to share God’s word and the good news about Jesus with them! You may be chastised, and you may lose friends along the way for sharing the truth, but this is the “taking up your cross” and following Christ that was talked about earlier. You would be doing this out of love for them, Elizabeth! We are only here on earth temporarily…eternity is a LONG time to wish we would have said something different!
Luke 9:23-24
23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
We often meet with crosses in the way of duty; and though we must not pull them upon our own heads, yet, when they are laid for us, we must take them up, and carry them after Christ. We must never be ashamed of Christ and his gospel.
Let me ask you this…if the Bible did not say so, would you still have a problem with homosexuality?
Only if God said homosexuality was ok, then I would not have a problem with it. But He did, so it’s really hard for me to think otherwise. When one becomes saved, their hearts and minds are changed by the Holy Spirit. Things that they once thought were ok to them, the Holy Spirit shows that they are not. It’s like former abortionists that found God. Many did not leave their jobs right away. It was only after time that the Holy Spirit convicted them of that sin, that they finally one day said, “enough”. It’s only by the Holy Spirit that one can change, even their lifestyles.
“I really have to put my two-cents in here. I tried really hard to stay away from another “heated” discussion, but again, I feel that a lot of dangerous information is being given here, from a worldly view, because many people here may know homosexuals and want to believe that it’s simply the way they were born or their “cross to bear”.”
Yeah, I know you have at least party in mind something I said, and I should make a correction about what I said. I was thinking about it, and I actually answered the wrong question. I answered the question why God ALLOWS it, not why it exists. What I should have said as to why it exists is because of original sin and fallen human nature. That leads up to why he would allow it, which I hold would be a cross to bear, but I gave the impression that he MAKES people have homosexual tendencies, and that is not correct. He permits it in his passive will.
Bobby,
Thank you for clarifying. I agree with everything you just said except for:
That leads up to why he would allow it, which I hold would be a cross to bear,
One can’t “pick up their cross” if they are not following Christ. In these verses, Jesus was speaking to his discples, even future ones, His believers and followers:
Luke 9:23-24
23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
His disciples, or followers, will be and have been persecuted for following Him and sharing His gospel. His discples when He was crucified were spreading His gospel, and devoted their lives to doing such. They had many crosses to bear along the way….being persecuted, imprisoned, ridiculed, even murdered for sharing the Gospel of Jesus. These are the crosses we bear that he was referring to. Sin is not a cross we bear, the persecutions for being His followers are.
John McD:
Single people often get married (not because they ‘love’ their partner), but because they are lonely. In a few years, they’ll find themselves married + lonely – marriage (having kids) hasn’t solved loneliness.
John very well said. We don’t talk enough about loneliness because of the very nature of the problem. One great thing about the internet is that it gives lonely people the ability to reach others.
Some people are lonely living in a house full of family. Others live alone and are content. God tells us that our hearts will never be fully satisfied until we are reunited with Him. This can be a great consolation in difficult times in our life, and we will be rewarded in the end.
That said, I think we need to do more. We can visit a hospital or a nursing home once or twice a month. Contact your church who can give you the name of a parishoner/member who has been recently admitted. Offer to pray with them, take them out for a walk in the fresh air, bring them a favorite magazine. The joy you will receive will be equal or greater than the joy that you give to them. God bless you.
Oops, John, Anon 12:27 was me.
About doing more…Those who are homebound can also contact their parish and ask for visitors. It’s a wonderful thing for the visitor as well as the “visited”.
“One can’t “pick up their cross” if they are not following Christ. In these verses, Jesus was speaking to his discples, even future ones, His believers and followers:”
OK, I see what you’re saying. But they can still “have” it, though right? I mean, if and when they decide to follow Christ, it has been with them all along and NOW that they follow Jesus, they can embrace that cross.
“Sin is not a cross we bear, the persecutions for being His followers are.”
Right. I wouldn’t say that sin, ACTUALLY sinning, is the cross, but the temptation and the desire to sin. I think (I think!) you agree that all sin is a perversion of something good. So in the case of homosexuality, the wanting of love amongst other things is good, yet it is disordered because of the desire for someone of the same sex. So the fact that you have this desire for good, but it is disordered or perverted is something to struggle with too, I believe. I know I have these kinds of disorders in my life where I have an attraction to something that is good, yet my attraction is disordered and ripped out of it’s proper context. Does that make sense?
thanks Janet,
loneliness is one of those basic tenants. We are comfortable in our own skin/identity until we are lonely. Quite often we remark that God does not need us and we ‘forget’ to finish the statement. Do we need each other … the parents – children; the self-righteous – the sinners; the well – the sick; etc, etc?????? Are we not one?
who has nothing to eat.
Mother Teresa
OK, I see what you’re saying. But they can still “have” it, though right? I mean, if and when they decide to follow Christ, it has been with them all along and NOW that they follow Jesus, they can embrace that cross.
Well, you’re still seeing “the cross” as being sin, or temptations to sin, rather than it being the persecutions that one is afflicted with by other non-believers for following Christ. When we are cleansed of our sin, God forgets it, and so should we. His cleansing lifts the “monkey off our backs”, and we have new life in Him.
I think (I think!) you agree that all sin is a perversion of something good. So in the case of homosexuality, the wanting of love amongst other things is good, yet it is disordered because of the desire for someone of the same sex. So the fact that you have this desire for good, but it is disordered or perverted is something to struggle with too, I believe. I know I have these kinds of disorders in my life where I have an attraction to something that is good, yet my attraction is disordered and ripped out of it’s proper context. Does that make sense?
I believe that sin is disobeying God, and not believing that God loves us and wants the best for us. So, when we take it upon ourselves to “get what we want”, instead of letting God give blessings to us and provide for us, we sin.
Homosexuals decide that they want what’s best for them, whether it’s love, companionship, or what have you, instead of relying on God to provide for them. They are doing things their way, instead of God’s way. The pervert what God has ordained by worshipping themselves, rather than God.
I know many homosexuals are really nice people. I don’t deny that. But all of us are sinners, and we all sin differently, but are guilty of them all. Some sinners murder, some steal, some molest children, some commit adultery, etc. But not everyone does ALL of these things, and some of them are really nice people. I know some adulterers that are really nice people! However, all of them are sins, and sin is detestable in God’s eyes, no matter what the underlying intentions are. A thief that steals to put food on his table is no different than the thief that robs a bank. Each thief has his own reasons for doing such, but neither reason is “good” in God’s eyes. Neither thief relied on God to provide what they need. And, such is the case with homosexuals. They are relying on themselves to find their own happiness, and therefore justifying that “it’s ok”, because they have good intentions.
Temptations are definitely something that we struggle with on a daily basis. That’s why we need to stay strong in the truth of God:
Ephesians 6:13-17
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
I don’t see a single place where God has said that He abhors homosexuals themselves. Only the sinning “behavior”.
I have to disagree with you JLM. I think many, many men and women are born with a perfectly natural attraction to people of the same sex. That they have no choice in the matter.
They do have a choice however whether or not to act out these attractions. That is the only sin.
I think you are wrong to say that God abhors homosexuals.
And I think the “crosses” that we bear are many and diverse. Some are sin, some are temptations, some are illnesses, some are persecutions…We are asked to help Jesus carry His cross, by imitating Him when we carry our own.
I have to disagree with you JLM. I think many, many men and women are born with a perfectly natural attraction to people of the same sex. That they have no choice in the matter.
Mk, I have to disagree that the Bible says clearly that we all have a choice in the matter. Everyone has the choice to do right or wrong.
God doesn’t make us forced to sin and then punished for it.
Desiring someone of the same sex would be just as much a sin of homosexuality, as desiring someone outside of marriage is adultery.
I believe that God’s laws are absolute, therefore, even the desire is just as wrong as the action itself. Remember, this is what I was trying to tell you on the phone…I thought we basically agreed about this? :)
Bobby,
I know I have these kinds of disorders in my life where I have an attraction to something that is good, yet my attraction is disordered and ripped out of it’s proper context. Does that make sense?
It makes perfect sense to me.
It’s like the alcoholic. A cold beer is a GOOOOOOOD thing…but perverted it becomes a baaaaad thing. Alcoholism. Addiction.
The desire to love and be loved is a good thing. The desire to love and be loved in a sexual way by someone of the same sex is a bad thing.
So the cross that a homosexual bears, is the attraction that they are born with, to the same sex. It can be overcome, not by “becoming heterosexual”, but by living a chaste life. One doesn’t just “stop” being a homosexual.
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
James 1: 14-15
The desire to love and be loved is a good thing. The desire to love and be loved in a sexual way by someone of the same sex is a bad thing.
Yes! That is where we agree. :)
When we are cleansed of our sin, God forgets it, and so should we.
Oh, so *poof* God has forgiven you, so you can forget about it. I’m sorry, JLM, but life does not work this way. And you can say it’s becauase people are not really “surrendering” to God, but I don’t believe that to be true. Carla has surrendered herself to God and been forgiven by God for her abortion, but she still thinks about it and suffers over it. She has not forgotten about it.
Homosexuals decide that they want what’s best for them, whether it’s love, companionship, or what have you, instead of relying on God to provide for them. They are doing things their way, instead of God’s way. The pervert what God has ordained by worshipping themselves, rather than God.
So homosexuals are not allowed a companion in this life because God says so? I am not talking about sex here, I am just talking about someone to spend their time with and share a life with. God doesn’t want homosexuals to have that? Or, wait, he does, but only if they’re straight? I’m sorry..I just can not buy into that logic.
I also have another question: What is “God’s way” of doing things? I hear people use this phrase all the time and it confuses me.
Oh, so *poof* God has forgiven you, so you can forget about it. I’m sorry, JLM, but life does not work this way. And you can say it’s becauase people are not really “surrendering” to God, but I don’t believe that to be true. Carla has surrendered herself to God and been forgiven by God for her abortion, but she still thinks about it and suffers over it. She has not forgotten about it.
Carla hasn’t forgotten it, but God promised that He has removed that sin as far as the east is from the west. Do you think she is still going to be held accountable for something that she has begged God’s forgiveness for, when God so clearly says, “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”?
No, Bethany I don’t. But JLM says that God has forgotten it and so should we. THAT was the part I was disagreeing with. I know Carla hasn’t forgotten about her abortion at all, so to imply that just because we have been forgiven that we can forget is silly.
So homosexuals are not allowed a companion in this life because God says so? I am not talking about sex here, I am just talking about someone to spend their time with and share a life with. God doesn’t want homosexuals to have that? Or, wait, he does, but only if they’re straight? I’m sorry..I just can not buy into that logic.
Elizabeth, I’m not trying to be mean or offensive, but it’s clearly what the Bible says. If you truly believe in God, you should understand that we do not and cannot shape God. We can’t put God into this little form and say, “This is what I want you to be like, so you shall be like that”. God is sovereign. He created us, and not vice versa. He has made rules about homosexuality, and those rules are there for a reason.
No, Bethany I don’t. But JLM says that God has forgotten it and so should we. THAT was the part I was disagreeing with.
Okay, sorry about that Elizabeth. I must have misunderstood you. I don’t know what statement by JLM that you are speaking of though.
Everyone has the choice to do right or wrong.
Yes, they do have the choice TO DO something, which means action.
Thoughts, feelings, etc…are somewhat out of our control. I can’t change the fact that I FEEL bad about my daughter’s father not being in her life..all I can do is choose to not think about it. But pushing thoughts and feelings away is unhealthy to a person’s psyche. You can only push things away so far until they bounce back in your face and you have a nervous breakdown or something.
I don’t see a single place where God has said that He abhors homosexuals themselves. Only the sinning “behavior”.
I didn’t say that God abhors homosexuals themselves. I said He their act is detestable. I said that God condemns homosexuality. God wants them to turn from their detestable acts, and follow Him so they may have eternal life.
Lev. 20:13, “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them”
I have to disagree with you JLM. I think many, many men and women are born with a perfectly natural attraction to people of the same sex. That they have no choice in the matter.
That’s fine. Many people will also agree with this worldly view and false teaching. However, God says:
Romans 1:25-28, They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator
And Elizabeth, I know that you seem to see this as the same as the black and white issue, and this is why it seems so near and dear to your heart. You seem to have homosexual people lumped in as the same as disabled people, or people who are born different colors (something that is not their fault, and something that they cannot possibly help)
Please understand. Homosexuality is not the same thing as being born a certain race or color. People are not born where they must be homosexual. Some people have tendencies to steal, but they do not HAVE to steal. Some people have tendencies towards homosexual behavior, but they do not have to be homosexual.
God would not save a person and make them *unable* to not sin.
No saved person is forced to sin. We are slaves to sin until we are saved. After we have accepted Christ, we no longer are enslaved to sin. Sin is no longer our master. Homosexuality is a sin, and if someone is truly saved, they do not “have” to do any of to desire people of the same sex, or to be with people of the same sex, in a sexual relationship.
I hope this makes sense to you, what i’m trying to say. I know I’m rambling a little.
So why would God create homosexuals then? Because since it’s in the Bible, then homosexuality has clearly been around since time began..why would He make them?
JLM: I know many homosexuals are really nice people. I don’t deny that. But all of us are sinners, and we all sin differently, but are guilty of them all. Some sinners murder, some steal, some molest children, some commit adultery, etc. But not everyone does ALL of these things, and some of them are really nice people. I know some adulterers that are really nice people! However, all of them are sins, and sin is detestable in God’s eyes, no matter what the underlying intentions are. A thief that steals to put food on his table is no different than the thief that robs a bank. Each thief has his own reasons for doing such, but neither reason is “good” in God’s eyes. Neither thief relied on God to provide what they need. And, such is the case with homosexuals. They are relying on themselves to find their own happiness, and therefore justifying that “it’s ok”, because they have good intentions.Temptations are definitely something that we struggle with on a daily basis. That’s why we need to stay strong in the truth of God:
I don’t want to get into any heated discussion either! Very nicely said. I agree for the most part.
Well, you’re still seeing “the cross” as being sin, or temptations to sin, rather than it being the persecutions that one is afflicted with by other non-believers for following Christ. When we are cleansed of our sin, God forgets it, and so should we. His cleansing lifts the “monkey off our backs”, and we have new life in Him.
I’d just like to add a little more about “the crosses we bear”. This is how I see it – It goes to the idea of Jesus’ crucifixion. His crucifixion was literally and figuratively “his cross”. For Jesus’ followers, it was the persecution they experienced because of knowing Him, some were actually crucified and brutally killed themselves. But fast forward to 2008, most of Christ’s followers today are not threatened with crucifixion as Jesus and some of His followers were. Our difficulties, our struggles (our crosses) today are no less difficult, but are in different form. Most crosses we bear are those we bring upon ourselves by our poor choices, but other crosses are those we have not brought upon ourselves, and I don’t think we can blame ourselves for them. For example, physical and mental handicaps.
So Bethany, if a person is saved, then they will stop being attracted to people of the same sex?
I just realized there are 14 posts between the one I replied to and my 2:40 post. I should have checked! Forgive me if I repeat something, I haven’t had a chance to read the newest posts, and have to run for now…
Elizabeth,
They chose it, by exchanging the truth of God for a lie, and God gave them over, by their own doings, to their shameful lusts and to a depraved mind.
Romans 1:25-28, They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator
Everyone has the choice to do right or wrong.
Yes, they do have the choice TO DO something, which means action.
Thoughts, feelings, etc…are somewhat out of our control.
No, they actually aren’t, and the Bible speaks about the heart very often.
God commands us on not only what we should DO, but what we should THINK.
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
Phil 4:8
Matt 15:* This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Matthew 5:28
27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Gods’ laws are so absolute, that even lusting, in your heart, is a sin.
I can’t change the fact that I FEEL bad about my daughter’s father not being in her life
Feeling discouraged about someone else’s sin is not sin. “Be angry and sin not”
So Bethany, if a person is saved, then they will stop being attracted to people of the same sex?
Posted by: Elizabeth at April 7, 2008 2:42 PM
They do not have to anymore. They may feel tempted to at times, but they do not have to choose to follow the sinful lifestyle anymore, after salvation. They are not enslaved to sin, and therefore they can choose to follow Christ and they can learn to love in a way that is not perverse.
Jesus salvation looses sin’s hold on us. We need not sin anymore after being saved. We still CAN sin, but we will always repent of it if we do. We will never sin and then tell everyone that the sin is acceptable, or that they should agree that it is a good thing.
That would be like an adulterer telling me that I must accept her lifestyle, because she just can’t help who she loves. She could probably give me a million reasons why she is justified in cheating on her husband, but I would never agree that it was okay. I would still love her dearly, but this doesn’t mean I could condone her actions, just because it “felt right” in her heart.
JLM,
I will stand by my previous statements, using the Word of God as my rock, that homosexuality is a CHOICE, and indeed, a very dangerous one.
Well JLM, I guess we have different ideas of what being a homosexual is. I think being homosexual means that you are not attracted to the opposite sex, but rather to the same sex…being attracted to is not the same as actively feeding ones desire.
If you mean giving into the attraction, well, to me that would fall into the “acts” category. But simply finding people of the same sex attractive? No, I don’t beleive there is sin in that. God created these men and women in this way. Just as he created me the way that I am. Each of us will have be tempted to give in to our desires. I am attracted to people of the opposite sex. Does that mean I am sinning? Is the fact that I prefer men to women a sin?
So, the ACT of homosexual sex is the sin?
Not the actual person who is homosexual?
So if they never had homosexual sex, then that would be okay?
Sorry, there were a lot of response and its hard to process it all..I’m just trying to make sure I understand what people are trying to say.
MK, 2:58 p.m. I would have to agree with you on that.
So, the ACT of homosexual sex is the sin?
Not the actual person who is homosexual?
A person cannot be a sin. A person can be sinful, though.
So no, the person is not a sin, but the person who is practicing homosexuality is sinful. (Just as I would be sinful if I was practicing lying, or if I was practicing stealing, or if I was lusting after other men besides my husband- God knows the heart)
So if they never had homosexual sex, then that would be okay?
If they had nurtured homosexual thoughts, then that would be sin that they had committed. If they never had homosexual thoughts or had homosexual sex, they would have never sinned.
Sorry, there were a lot of response and its hard to process it all..I’m just trying to make sure I understand what people are trying to say.
That’s no problem. I’m just glad that you’re not saying that we hate homosexuals, because nothing could be farther from the truth!
Yes Elizabeth. At least in the Catholic Church. Homosexuality/being a homosexual is NOT a sin. Only sex outside the context of marriage is. That’s what I thought I said yesterday.
I think that JLM sees this differently. I think, (could be wrong) that she believes that if they just repent they will suddenly be heterosexual. Catholics do NOT believe this.
I celebrate the unique qualities that homosexuals have. But I cannot condone homosexual sex…
Isn’t this what the whole conversation last nite was all about?
CCC 2333. “Everyone, man and woman, should acknowledge and accept his sexual identity. Physical, moral, and spiritual difference and complementarity are oriented toward the goods of marriage and the flourishing of family life. The harmony of the couple and of society depends in part on the way in which the
Quick question: is a pedophile sinning if he is attracted sexually to a little child, and if he simply desires sex with little children?
I think the answer is yes but I do not know what I will hear from you guys.
If they never had homosexual thoughts
How does one know they are homosexual if they never have homosexual thoughts?
How does one know they are homosexual if they never have homosexual thoughts?
Elizabeth, I’ll try to explain this so you can hear this the way I hear it.
It’s like asking me, “How does one know they’re a thief if they never have thoughts about stealing?”
Homosexual acts are wrong. They are sin. They are not something that God created man to be. They are a perversion of what God created man to be. Just as being a thief is a perversion of what God created man to be.
I don’t know if this helps you understand where I’m coming from a little better, but if not, I’ll keep trying! :)
If you mean giving into the attraction, well, to me that would fall into the “acts” category. But simply finding people of the same sex attractive? No, I don’t beleive there is sin in that. God created these men and women in this way. Just as he created me the way that I am. Each of us will have be tempted to give in to our desires. I am attracted to people of the opposite sex. Does that mean I am sinning? Is the fact that I prefer men to women a sin?
BIG difference in finding someone in the same sex attractive, and being attraced to the same sex! I think it’s decieving to say that people who are attracted to the same sex and don’t act on it are not homosexuals, although they will say they are!
I can say that a female actress is attractive, but that doesn’t make me a homosexual. So I agree with you there that this is not a sin. If I am attracted TO her, though, it does make it a sin. Do you see the difference? Homosexuality is being attracted TO the same sex, not finding someone of the same sex attractive. How can you really get around that?
God DID NOT create these men and women this way. Come on. God created everyone in HIS likeness and image. Your statement implies that God could be a homosexual also. That is absurd!
Here’s these verses again:
Romans 1:25-28, They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator
Darn Jill and these weekend questions! LOL
MK, I believe it was…..and I understand your position and I am Catholic as well, but as far as JLM’s position is concerned, and Bethany’s, that’s where the confusion came in. Multiple convo’s at one time are hard to keep track of!
Are people born pedophiles?
I think that JLM sees this differently. I think, (could be wrong) that she believes that if they just repent they will suddenly be heterosexual. Catholics do NOT believe this.
mk,
You must have missed my previous post to Elizabeth regarding this. Here, I’ll post that part again:
When one becomes saved, their hearts and minds are changed by the Holy Spirit. Things that they once thought were ok to them, the Holy Spirit shows that they are not. It’s like former abortionists that found God. Many did not leave their jobs right away. It was only after time that the Holy Spirit convicted them of that sin, that they finally one day said, “enough”. It’s only by the Holy Spirit that one can change, even their lifestyles.
Bethany and JLM,
What if there someday is a way to PROVE that homosexuality..the same-sex ATTRACTION, NOT the ACT of homosexuality, was something genetic. Would you say then that those people were not created in God’s image? Because if it’s a genetic thing, then these people have no control over the actual ATTRACTION.
I can not control the fact that I like the color blue better than I like the color red. In fact, I don’t even think about it..it’s just what I like. Just like I’m attracted to men with darker skin more than I am attracted to fair complexions. Some people think THAT’S perverse and weird, but I just like who I like.
I can’t help but shake my head at the idea that homosexuality is a “choice.” Look how it worked out for the head of an ex-gay organization that committed suicide. If you tell someone they have to be someone they are not in order to be saved, they think they are inherently flawed and rejected by God and are not even worthy of living. What a great way to “help” these people.
On the lighter side of this issue..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFo8NGO4nTA
I think that JLM sees this differently. I think, (could be wrong) that she believes that if they just repent they will suddenly be heterosexual. Catholics do NOT believe this.
*
mk,
You must have missed my previous post to Elizabeth regarding this. Here, I’ll post that part again:
*
When one becomes saved, their hearts and minds are changed by the Holy Spirit. Things that they once thought were ok to them, the Holy Spirit shows that they are not. It’s like former abortionists that found God. Many did not leave their jobs right away. It was only after time that the Holy Spirit convicted them of that sin, that they finally one day said, “enough”. It’s only by the Holy Spirit that one can change, even their lifestyles.
Well that clears up…er…nothing. This still does not address whether you believe that a homosexual will be come heterosexual if they repent.
Elizabeth,
I can not control the fact that I like the color blue better than I like the color red. In fact, I don’t even think about it..it’s just what I like. Just like I’m attracted to men with darker skin more than I am attracted to fair complexions. Some people think THAT’S perverse and weird, but I just like who I like.
Well that’s the way I see it anyway. The attraction is not a sin. Entertaining the attraction is.
As for pedophiles, don’t know enough about it, but if a person is born with an attraction for children, but rejects this attraction, does NOT act on it, then no, I don’t believe they are sinning.
We ALL have something that attracts us that is not good for us. It’s what we do with that attraction that matters.
As for carrying our crosses…I have to disagree with JLM. I don’t think we lay our burdens at the foot of the cross. I think we carry them. Simon helped Jesus carry His cross. We are all called to be Simons. We take up those crosses, whether they are same sex attractions, poverty or mental illness. In whatever form they come, we thank God for them, carry them and offer them up for the good of the world.
Are people born pedophiles?
Are you equating pedophilia, which is a nonconsentual act, RAPE, if you will of a young child, to that of 2 adults who are consenting?
Really…if you hold those 2 things on the same level, then continuing this discussion is rather pointless. No offense intended of course, I just can’t see relating the two.
And no, I don’t think people are born pedophiles…most, if not all pedophiles were molested themselves.
Hi MK,
I laid the burden of the shame of my abortion at the foot of the cross. I need not EVER pick it up again. Jesus took it from me. The cross I carry is the grief and regret over the abortion that God will use to help others. :)
What if there someday is a way to PROVE that homosexuality..the same-sex ATTRACTION, NOT the ACT of homosexuality, was something genetic. Would you say then that those people were not created in God’s image? Because if it’s a genetic thing, then these people have no control over the actual ATTRACTION.
Elizabeth,
God said everyone IS created in His image and likeness. The verses that I keep posting clearly show that it is their choice. So, if science one day decides to “prove” it, I still will not agree with it. I’ll take God’s word over man’s any day!
Just like I’m attracted to men with darker skin more than I am attracted to fair complexions. Some people think THAT’S perverse and weird, but I just like who I like.
I don’t think it’s perverse or wierd! There’ a huge difference, though between the non-sin of liking the color blue, or prefering dark skinned men over light-skinned ones, than the sin of homosexuality.
I can’t help but shake my head at the idea that homosexuality is a “choice.” Look how it worked out for the head of an ex-gay organization that committed suicide.
PIP,
You’ve posted this before, and I wanted to respond, but held back for fear of being “sucked it” to another debate! lol!
The only thing I can say, is that this man truly was not living a life in Christ. He decided that his way was better than God’s. That’s what I define sin as. If he killed himself because he wasn’t happy, then he was relying on himself to find happiness, rather than finding it THROUGH God.
I can’t help but shake my head at the idea that homosexuality is a “choice.”
I agree, Pip.
Elizabeth,
I didn’t mean to imply that pedophiles were born that way. I was just saying that if they were/could be, then there would be no sin in that.
I don’t think one is born with a predilection for children either, I only used that example because Bethany brought it up. My point being that being “born” a certain way is NOT a sin, while acting a certain way is.
Elizabeth, no, I was speaking of their ‘attraction’ to little children. You say that homosexuals have an attraction to the other sex, an attraction that they were born with and absolutely cannot control.
I see pedophiles, who claim the same thing. That they cannot control it. That they sincerely LOVE little children, and that they genuinely feel a strong attraction for them which they cannot control.
So my question to you was based on this, that pedophiles who simple DESIRE or are ATTRACTED sexually to little children (don’t even act on it, just desire it), are they wrong, even if they live a chaste lifestyle?
Also, I could direct a form of logic which you expressed earlier, only torward pedophilia. You said, “Why would someone CHOOSE a lifestyle in which they would be persecuted so?” You said that the very fact that you couldn’t fathom someone making a choice to be someone that other people loathed, meant that it must not be something they choose to do.
Therefore, I could ask you the same question about pedophilia. Why would someone choose to be a pedophile? To be someone that others loathed and thought were disgusting? Would anyone really CHOOSE to be a pedophile?
Oops, as I usually have to do, I have to explain that I am not shouting. The quotation marks and the caps are only for emphasis, not to yell at you guys! :)
I laid the burden of the shame of my abortion at the foot of the cross. I need not EVER pick it up again. Jesus took it from me. The cross I carry is the grief and regret over the abortion that God will use to help others. :)
Amen, Carla!! Thank God for this fact. (hugs)
Well that clears up…er…nothing. This still does not address whether you believe that a homosexual will be come heterosexual if they repent.
Well, you said this: “I think that JLM sees this differently. I think, (could be wrong) that she believes that if they just repent they will suddenly be heterosexual. Catholics do NOT believe this.”
I responded that it is not a sudden change, but a change that will come over time ONLY by the Holy Spirit.
But, to answer your next question, Yes, I do believe that the Holy Spirit will work in the person and they will become a heterosexual, just like the former abortionist will eventually stop killing babies and become pro-life. If they don’t, they never had the Holy Spirit working in their life to begin with, or never whole-heartidly repented of their sinful ways. God does change us, mk, when we are brought into His body, the church.
Again, we can use the alcohol illustration. We know that some people have a gene that makes them susceptible to alcoholism. There is nothing wrong with alcohol, if used correctly, just as there is nothing wrong with sex, if done correctly.
Some people are attracted to animals sexually. Were they born that way? Who knows? Who cares? The point is that we know attraction to children, attraction to animals and attraction to members of the same sex are all, incompatible with the way we were created.
In all three of these the focus is on fulfilling a need. Seeking pleasure.
Pleasure in itself is not a bad thing, but when it becomes and end that justifies the means, even when the means is not “good”, then it becomes selfish. Seeking only to please oneself. Our goal should be to seek to please God, even if that means forgoing certain “pleasures”.
You would not tell an alcoholic that it was okay to drink would you?
JLM,
I responded that it is not a sudden change, but a change that will come over time ONLY by the Holy Spirit.
So my statement was correct. JLM believes that a homosexual can become heterosexual if they repent.
Catholics do not hold this view. We don’t see being homosexual as something to be overcome. We see it as something to be “mastered”. Just as we see the desire to have heterosexual sex as a thing to be mastered and expressed only in the confines of marriage.
Well JLM, I guess we have different ideas of what being a homosexual is. I think being homosexual means that you are not attracted to the opposite sex, but rather to the same sex…being attracted to is not the same as actively feeding ones desire.
mk,
Your own Catechism disagrees here! They seem to touch here on both the attraction and the act:
2357
Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
MK,
I agree with what you have said.
JLM,
Sorry, I just can’t grasp onto the whole “If you believe Jesus, He can turn you straight” idea. That, to me, is just ignorance.
Marykay, I kind of feel like if it really were that way, if homosexuals were really “born that way”, it would be unfair to tell them they had to be chaste their entire life.
If God made them where they “could not” feel attracted to the opposite sex, it would be very unfair to ask them to go without love their entire life. In this way I would agree with PIP and elizabeth, and everyone else here about homosexuality.
However, I completely disagree. I think that if God calls it a sin, why would he then make someone BORN with a sin they cannot overcome?
Corinthians 10:13 says, “No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.”
JLM,
That whole quote you just posted proved MK’s point. THE ACT OF HOMOSEXUALITY is viewed as a sin, not the person that is homosexual.
JLM,
I don’t see where the Cathechism disagrees with anything I have said…which part are you referring to?
“I think that if God calls it a sin, why would he then make someone BORN with a sin they cannot overcome?”
Maybe because HE didn’t call it a sin. Maybe He didn’t say anything about it.
Maybe because HE didn’t call it a sin. Maybe He didn’t say anything about it.
Who are you referring to, Hal? If you are referring to the God of the Bible, He did speak of it, many times.
Bethany,
Why would God create people with a disposition to alcoholism if that meant that they could never enjoy the pleasure of alcohol? Or diabetics? Or blind people? Or deaf people? Why would he create a blind person, and never let them experience the joy of color? Or a deaf person, only to hold back the joy of music?
Gotta run girls! Talk to you later (and Hal) :)
B,
Or why would He have given you Blessing, only to take her away before allowing you to have time with her?
Catholics do not hold this view. We don’t see being homosexual as something to be overcome. We see it as something to be “mastered”. Just as we see the desire to have heterosexual sex as a thing to be mastered and expressed only in the confines of marriage.
Of course Catholics don’t hold this view! If they did, they could not possibly explain the high number of homosexual priests!
AGAIN…this is what God says:
Romans 1:25-28, They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator
Hal,
I hate to disagree with you here, but when it comes to homosexual “acts” God is pretty clear. Now if you don’t adhere to the bible, we don’t have an argument for you. If you don’t believe in God, then what do you mean by He didn’t say anything about it?
If God made them where they “could not” feel attracted to the opposite sex, it would be very unfair to ask them to go without love their entire life.
All of the homosexuals I know are disgusted by the thought of the opposite sex in the physical/sexual way. Really, they are…I have asked them if they ever could feel attracted to the opposite sex or kiss or have sex with them…and it really grosses them out. Now, that’s not to say that they couldn’t be attracted to a person’s intelligence or other attributes about a person. I honestly couldn’t tell you in that regard since I am not homosexual, so I do not know completely how they look at it. All I know is they are not physically attracted to the opposite sex. And I think we all can agree that, for the most part, the inital attraction is physical. If that isn’t there, the chances of them being attracted to that person in any other way are not as likely.
Uh oh… 4000 posts here we come…
JLM,
Cheap shots are rather unbecoming. To me, Lust is an act. It is actively entertaining sexual thoughts.
You can post those scripture passages all that you want, but I don’t know what you think you are showing me. I agree that homosexual “acts” are sinful.
I do not think Homosexuals are sinful. I think it is a perfectly natural abberation of the normal sexual preference. I think it is “different”.
I think heterosexuals are just as capable of Lust as homosexuals.
I asked you before, I ask you again…I am attracted to the opposite sex. Am I sinning?
bobby,
lol.
JLM,
Do you have any homosexual friends? I mean, I can’t imagine that you do, because then you would see how misinformed it is to believe that by surrendering yourself to Jesus, that you can “become” straight.”
Nobody is born an abortion doctor, those are conscious acts. Some people ARE born with thoughts of being attracted to the same sex. From a very young age. Have you even spoken to homosexuals about the time they knew they were gay? Usually, it occurs somewhere in childhood. And during this time, children aren’t even thinking like that, so if these children KNEW from a very young age that they had some sort of attraction to the same gender, you think they can just be converted?
Sorry, I just can’t grasp onto the whole “If you believe Jesus, He can turn you straight” idea. That, to me, is just ignorance.
I’m sorry you feel that way.
I don’t think Carla, or thousands of others that had an abortion and found God will ever abort again.
I don’t think that former abortionists that found God will ever perform an abortions again.
There are thousands of former prostitutes that found God and turned from their wicked ways.
There are COUNTLESS examples of people in the bible that have done a comlete 180 degree turn around in their lives THROUGH the conviction of the Holy Spirit in them.
Are you serious that you don’t believe that the Holy Spirit can change someone’s life or lifestyle around to please God? If this is what you truly believe, you certainly don’t have a clue about the power of the Holy Spirit!
Sorry, I just can’t grasp onto the whole “If you believe Jesus, He can turn you straight” idea. That, to me, is just ignorance.
I’m sorry you feel that way.
I don’t think Carla, or thousands of others that had an abortion and found God will ever abort again.
I don’t think that former abortionists that found God will ever perform an abortions again.
There are thousands of former prostitutes that found God and turned from their wicked ways.
There are COUNTLESS examples of people in the bible that have done a comlete 180 degree turn around in their lives THROUGH the conviction of the Holy Spirit in them.
Are you serious that you don’t believe that the Holy Spirit can change someone’s life or lifestyle around to please God? If this is what you truly believe, you certainly don’t have a clue about the power of the Holy Spirit!
Bethany and Elizabeth,
If God made them where they “could not” feel attracted to the opposite sex, it would be very unfair to ask them to go without love their entire life.
Who says that they have to go without love their entire lives? Is there no love without sex? They are only being asked to find “love” in other ways.
Just like my single friend. I can’t have sex with my brother. (Not that I’d want to). I’m not going to focus on the fact that this “love” would be taboo. But I still love him. I still have a relationship with him. No, a homosexual would not be able to express his love in a sexual way, but that does not mean a love less life, does it?
I think that if God calls it a sin, why would he then make someone BORN with a sin they cannot overcome?
Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
JLM,
I did not say that people can not turn there lives around because of the Holy Spirit. But I do not believe one can become something they are clearly not. They may never have homosexual SEX again as a result of their conversion, but they still AREN’T ATTRACTED to the opposite sex!
You give me one story about a person who was turned straight as a result of surrendering to Jesus Christ, and I will shut up. And I don’t just mean not having homosexual sex again. I mean, wants to be with/marry/have sex/kids with a heterosexual!
If you can show me one instance of that, maybe I’ll buy into your little “Jesus can turn you straight” idea. Until then, I will just have to say that you don’t know much about homosexuality.
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
Hmm…I’ll think I’ll grow a 3rd arm. Maybe Christ will strengthen me to do THAT.
I mean come on, let’s take a step back to reality, JLM.
If it was as simple as surrendering yourself to Christ that could turn people straight…wouldn’t you think they would have tried that already? Oh no, wait, they LOVE being gay. They love having people persecute, curse at, even assault them. I’m sure Matthew Shepherd would have loved to been informed about that little tidbit before they strung him up!
If a homosexual friend is struggling, really struggling with their same sex attraction and on the verge of suicide because of it would you just say, “Buck up camper?”
Or would you offer them the hope that is in Jesus Christ?
There are homosexuals that long to leave their lifestyle and many do. Only Jesus can do that.
And yes I have homosexual friends. :)
exactly, Elizabeth!
Google Exodus International
Carla,
I am not saying that they can not stope engaging in homosexual sex or a risky lifestyle through the help of Christ. Of course they can! But JLM is implying that they can become heterosexual if they just surrender themselves to Christ. If it were doing that that could turn people straight..we would have a lot more advocates for homosexual conversion wouldn’t you think?!?!
Ok, I’m back, 60 posts later, in less than two hours. I can’t read that fast, and I’m not up for another 4000 post thread…..so I will agree to disagree instead of losing my mind, again!
I do believe that anyone can change.
You believe they can stop having homosexual sex but not stop being homosexual? Is that right?
There are stories on Exodus that I have read. I know there are those that are quite happy, content in the homosexual lifestyle. I am not talking about them. I am talking about those that are desperate to leave it.
Elizabeth,
Here is a beautiful story. Please read it! It’s the same place that Jill writes articles for!
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56487
Will they be able to stop their attraction towards the same sex? Will they be able to be attracted to the opposite sex? That’s what I’m talking about here..not the action part of it.
JLM,
Yes, he may have stopped engaging in homosexual sex and risky behaviors. But is he NOW attracted to women?
Did anyone watch the video? I thought it was applicable :)
Okay, people…I am going to Olive Garden for dinner, now. (Be jealous)
I will respond later this evening!
Uh oh… 4000 posts here we come...
Ha ha Bobby, I don’t see that ever happening again. :)
Do you have about a month left of school?
Carla,
I think you misunderstand. Elizabeth and I agree wholeheartedly that with the help of God a homosexual can lead a chaste life.
What JLM is claiming is that with repentance, a homosexual can become a heterosexual. Not lead a chaste homosexual life, but actually gain an attraction to the opposite sex and lose their attraction to the same sex…
Agreed, MK 5:05 p.m. That is what I meant.
Okay, NOW I’m going to Olive Garden.
Any opinions on this, too?
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/04/get_out_of_here_atheists.php
Yes, I believe a homosexual can gain attraction to the opposite sex and lose their same sex attraction.
“Do you have about a month left of school?”
More like 2.5 years, hehe
Summer break?
Amen, Carla 5:18
Bethany,
Why would God create people with a disposition to alcoholism if that meant that they could never enjoy the pleasure of alcohol? Or diabetics? Or blind people? Or deaf people? Why would he create a blind person, and never let them experience the joy of color? Or a deaf person, only to hold back the joy of music?
Posted by: mk at April 7, 2008 4:05 PM
Alcohol is not in and of itself sinful.
Homosexual behavior is, and even the desires/lusts of a homosexual nature are.
Being deaf is not a sin. Being blind is not a sin. How are these analogous?
Or why would He have given you Blessing, only to take her away before allowing you to have time with her?
Posted by: mk at April 7, 2008 4:06 PM
Can you please try to explain to me where the comparison lies in my miscarriage and homosexuality?
Well Carla,
As long as you don’t start attacking Catholic priests I will amicably agree to disagree.
I probably came across a little huffy in one of my earlier posts, but I really take offense when people directly attack my faith. Especially when there is no real point to be made.
I personally think that asking a homosexual to become heterosexual is like asking a white person to become black.
I do think that the nature of the disorder lends itself more readily to perversions of all kinds, but I do not believe that homosexual predispositions are inherently sinful.
I do think that some homosexuals choose the lifestyle because of a perverted view of sex all the way around, and as I told Bethany I do not believe that bisexuals are born that way.
But I honestly believe that homosexuality is a genetic thing more often than not.
Elizabeth, Olive garden, YUM! I’m jealous!
I’m making pierogies for dinner. :)
Bethany,
I am saying that being homosexual, being attracted to the opposite sex in a sexual way is not in itself a sin.
Any more than being blind is a sin, or being deaf is a sin.
So God making someone homosexual is not making him inherently sinful. He might be giving them a predisposition to a particular type of sin. But no more so than any body else is disposed to other types of sin. No more than giving a person with a predisposition to alcoholism is creating a sinner.
So you saying that God created certain persons that will be guaranteed to sin doesn’t ring true to me either.
I have female parts and am attracted to men. This is not a sin. If I use those attractions to have sex or lust after men, then I am sinning. But my sexual preference is not in itself a sin…
Here is what you said:
Marykay, I kind of feel like if it really were that way, if homosexuals were really “born that way”, it would be unfair to tell them they had to be chaste their entire life.
Why would that be unfair? My girlfriend Chris was born attracted to men. But she is called to live chastely her entire life, as she has never married. Why is that different?
If God made them where they “could not” feel attracted to the opposite sex, it would be very unfair to ask them to go without love their entire life. In this way I would agree with PIP and elizabeth, and everyone else here about homosexuality.
Why do they have to go without love? Sex, yes. But love? Why? Why can’t they love? Or be loved?
“Summer break?”
Well, we’re on quarters here (we’re soooooo enlightened…) so there never really is a summer break. However, I’m done taking classes, so the “school year” doesn’t really affect me much unless I have to teach. Most days of the week I stay at home and take care of the baby anyway. It’s good to have a sinecure.
God’s word is clear about ALL sin.
Let me ask you this MK.
If someone continued to be a thief after they became a Christian, what would you think of their faith? Substitute any sinful behavior.
And if God only condemns the sin and not the sinner, why is there a hell?
The truth is God hates the sin and loves the sinner and desires that we all CHOOSE life. However, until the sinner repents and confesses he remains condemned. God cannot separate the two apart from the choice of the sinner. Otherwise God would have no integrity whatsoever and Christ’s death was not needed to cover anyone’s sin.
And, I’ve got to bring up one more issue.
1 Cor. 6:9-10 referes not only to honosexuals but “effeminate” as follows: “Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”
I suggest that even a man acting effeminate is an abomination to God. Why do Catholics’ paintings of Jesus always portray a blond-haired, blue-eyed wimp as the Savior?
Jesus Christ was a carpenter. He was strong and muscular with rough hands, an olive skinned complexion and dark, probably black hair. He was a man’s man. If he was in any way effeminate, the fisherman-turned-apostles would have blown him off from the get go. No real man can follow a wimp.
Besides, Isaiah 53 says this about the blond haired, blue-eyes Jesus the RCC likes to portay:
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
It’s good to have a sinecure.
That’s a new word for me, I had to look it up. Obviously referring to the teaching job, not the “taking care of baby” job, right? I think I actually had a sinecure myself many years ago!
MK,
Nope. No attacking here. :)
HisMan,
First off I don’t know of any wimpy blue eyed blond Jesus portrayed by Catholic artists, but be that as it may, why do you and JLM feel it necessary to attack my faith? Is it not enough to make your point without the insults? What is it with you two? From attacking our art, to calling the Eucharist a cracker, to constantly bringing up the priest scandal????
You can believe what you want Hisman. It’s a free country. I do not believe that it is a sin to be a homosexual if you live a chaste lifestyle. And my corrupt, satan worshipping, idolatrous Catholic Church feels the same way.
I would prefer to emulate Mother Teresa to you or JLM any day.
I have never disrespected your church, belittled your faith, insulted you for what you believe…to me, that is simple common courtesy. Shame on both of you.
I don’t think I care to discuss this with either of you anymore, as it has digressed into insults rather than true dialog. We have a difference of opinion, and nothing that you have shown in scripture says that I am wrong. I have agreed that sex, in any capacity outside of marriage is sinful, but I do not/will not agree that simply having a same sex attraction is a sin.
You say that scripture cannot contradict itself, but you obviously don’t follow the same rules.
If someone continued to be a thief after they became a Christian, what would you think of their faith? Substitute any sinful behavior.
*
And if God only condemns the sin and not the sinner, why is there a hell?
*
The truth is God hates the sin and loves the sinner
Which is it? He hates the sinner and that’s why there is hell, or he loves the sinner.
Bethany and I just had this conversation today on the phone.
God doesn’t “hate” anything. He is pure love. He loves sinners, satan, sexual deviants and me. He cannot bear to be near sin, true but He is incapable of hate.
I’m done now…done with conversation, until I receive an apology and a promise that you will both stop attacking my church.
Carla,
then you I will continue to discuss this with! Thank you for respecting my faith.
3 [9] The Greek word translated as boy prostitutes may refer to catamites, i.e., boys or young men who were kept for purposes of prostitution, a practice not uncommon in the Greco-Roman world. In Greek mythology this was the function of Ganymede, the “cupbearer of the gods,” whose Latin name was Catamitus. The term translated Sodomites refers to adult males who indulged in homosexual practices with such boys. See similar condemnations of such practices in Romans 1:26-27; 1 Tim 1:10.
The above is the definition of effeminate as it was used in that passage…
mk,
Lust:
1) desire, longing, craving for
Romans 1:25-28, They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator
Yeah I guess any desire to be with anybody is shameful, if simple attractedness is lust. You all should be ashamed of yourselves, for finding someone attractive and then falling in love and marrying him! The shame of all that desire! Repent for that lust that brought you together..
JLM,
I have already stated that “lust” is considered at “act”. I don’t know what more you want from me. Being attracted to the same sex is not lust. Not being attracted to the opposite sex is not lust. And neither of these is a sin.
Last time. I am attracted to the opposite sex. Am I sinning?
And for the record, the priest scandal was not about homosexual priests. It was about pedophiles. Totally different. Sex with men. Sex with children.
And the church doesn’t condone either one. This is the insult. Insinuating that the church condoned what those priests did. Honestly, where you get this stuff is beyond me…I mean we all know that there are NO homosexual protestants, right? That must me why you didn’t bring them up, but felt compelled to dwell on the Catholic Church.
Dictionary:
lust
(lŭst) pronunciation
n.
1. Intense or unrestrained sexual craving.
2.
1. An overwhelming desire or craving: a lust for power.
2. Intense eagerness or enthusiasm: a lust for life.
3. Obsolete. Pleasure; relish.
intr.v., lust
MK,
Sorry I left you all alone here..but you can hold your own I can see.
Like I’ve said before, if conversion could change people’s attraction, you should really let them know. It would save a lot of homosexuals I know years of pain and heartache of not understanding why they can’t just be “straight.”
*rolls eyes*
“but you [MK] can hold your own I can see.”
Ha! If that ain’t an understatement…
mk,
That definition that I used came from the Greek word “orexis”. For more on where I got that from, which wasn’t a dictionary, you can see here:
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3715&t=kjv
I have already stated that “lust” is considered at “act”. I don’t know what more you want from me. Being attracted to the same sex is not lust. Not being attracted to the opposite sex is not lust. And neither of these is a sin.
I must apologize, though, I thought from your posts that you said that it was only the act that was a sin, not the thought.
No, I don’t think you’re sinful if you are attracted to men. Other men than your husband, well, if they are desirable to you, then maybe. I guess it’s just how one would define desirable or attraction.
Maybe I’m confused on homosexuals, then. I am a woman. If I’m attracted to a man, I would also like for him to be attracted to me. I would hope that he would ask me out on a date, and if he was a good Christian man, then hopefully things could progress, get married, and then, well…you know!
Are you saying that homosexuals only look at appearances of others with no other thoughts? And if the person was attracted to them also nothing else would become of that? Because I am a woman, and I think Anglina Jolie is gorgeous. I’m not a lesbian. Homosexual women that look at other women refer to themselves as lesbians. So how would your definition of attraction without it being lust apply to homosexuals that refer to themselves as such? I’m really confused!
“Yeah I guess any desire to be with anybody is shameful, if simple attractedness is lust. You all should be ashamed of yourselves, for finding someone attractive and then falling in love and marrying him! The shame of all that desire! Repent for that lust that brought you together..”
My evil, evil parents.
Hell, it’s even worse because my dad was ~26 and my mom was ~19 when they started dating.
*snap*
@JLM,
you need to do a little talking with the Spirit and ask for the gift of discernment.
Bethany, I too have wondered why God creates homosexuals and I keep coming up with this …. God creates the earth but man changes/cultivates it … ie. changes it …. and I double-dare you to find where God is nix on farming!
Similarly homosexuals (like-us-all) are people-not-finished. MK (and others) believe that the homosexual tendency may have roots pre-birth … so between fertilization and birth some wiring got messed-up. I have wondered if this ‘problem’ has to do with zinc deficit because a male requires more zinc to function than does a female.
The Bible does have most of the right answers, are we asking the right questions? Are we only content to seek answers that fit our agenda … to condemn God’s creation?
JLM,
Perhaps I can try and help clarify the distinction. I’m married to a woman (I am man, I believe). For a good 15 years of my life, I lusted after many women. I had fantasies about them in my head that I knowingly and willfully entertained. I would also look at pornographic material. Now that stuff gets BURNED into your head. I can remember images and videos that I saw years ago nearly perfectly. And not because I want to but because it pops in all the time. Especially when I don’t want it to. It’s like when someone tells you not to think about a pink elephant. What are you going to do? Think of a pink elephant! So these images and fantasies come back many times when I see a seductive commercial on TV, or browsing the internet, or even when I see a beautiful girl in the gym. It happened even today! I saw a lovely girl in the gym this afternoon, and porn ran though my head. Not because I wanted it to. But rather than think about it or entertain the thought, I simply turned my head away and did my next set (this is all by the grace of God, of course). My point is that there is a certain sense in which I am sexually attracted to many women who are not my wife. But I don’t act on those attractions. I have these feelings, but I WILL to avoid them and not act on them.
This is the same way I would understand one who has same sex attraction yet does not engage in sex with someone of the same sex. These feelings and images about someone of the same sex may pop into their head, but they do not concentrate on them. They do not entertain them. The will is stronger than the intellect, or at least should be. All in all, sporadic thoughts will pop into our heads, but it is whether or not we concentrate on or invite those thoughts in and entertain them that is an important distinction. And then actually acting out the thoughts, of course, we agree is disordered. God love you.
Bobby, you get to have your wife who you love. That makes avoiding all the other beautiful women much easier, don’t you think? What’s a gay man or woman to do?
@JLM: Bobbeh stated it most eloquently. :)
Bobby,
Thank you so much for your explanation! That must have been difficult for you to open up yourself like that in order to explain something to me. Thank you, and I appreciate you! That does clear up much of my confusion, and for that, I’m grateful to you for it.
I don’t think that homosexual tendancies are something that someone is born with, though. Romans 1 is very clear where those tendancies come from.
Also, we are all born sinners. Our flesh has the tendancy to sin. That being said, I can see why some would think that homosexuality is something that someone is born with. In that respect, I can agree. However, it being genetic, or a zinc deficiency, I would have to disagree with. I know that everyone is born with a sinful nature. Either we nurture the desires of our flesh, or we come to God in repentance. I don’t believe for a second that one can know and love God and still sin by being a homosexual. If one was a homosexual and came to know God, they wouldn’t refer to themselves as homosexuals anymore. They can remember what they used to be like, but to still refer to themselves as gay or lesbian seems to me like they don’t believe that they were washed clean from their sin.
Acts 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
So this is the part that I don’t understand. How can a person still call themselves gay or lesbian after they have repented?
“That makes avoiding all the other beautiful women much easier, don’t you think? What’s a gay man or woman to do?”
Actually, I wouldn’t say that’s necessarily true. It seems that it would be the case, but it hasn’t gotten any easier since my marriage.
But I do see your point, Hal. The thing is, if homosexual acts are wrong, just the fact that someone who has same sex attractions would be lonely does not make it right. I don’t know where you stand on this, but what if someone is only attracted to an animal, maybe a horse. Should human-animal sexual relations be permissible solely based on the fact that the man attracted to a horse would otherwise have no one? Or what about someone who is only attracted to 6 year old boys? My point is that just the fact that a gay man or women would not “have another” can not be reason enough to justify homosexual behaviour.
OK, I’m out for the evening. Good journey.
“So this is the part that I don’t understand. How can a person still call themselves gay or lesbian after they have repented?”
Because being gay or lesbian is not a sin…it’s the actions that are allegedly sinful.
Repenting does not turn people straight. That is false.
How can you disagree with homosexuality being a zinc deficiency or a genetic thing if *you don’t know*. We don’t know if that’s the case (though I would be willing to bet that that is true, however I can’t say it is or not as there is no scientific proof at the moment), and you can’t disagree or agree with something that is unknown.
Rae,
But it is known, because I believe the Word of God to be true. Romans 1 is clear on where homosexual behavior comes from. I stated before that even if science declares one day that it is genetic, I will still disagree based solely on the Word of God. My faith is in the Word of God, not scientific studies. I know you’ll disagree with me on that one, but I truly feel that one is Heavenly and one is worldy. I’m going to put my “money” on the Heavenly One!
Wow, things got a tad nasty today with the Catholic bashing.
Wimpy pictures of Christ – try looking up the Divine Mercy picture HisMan.
Nothing wimpy about that picture….
JLM – we can’t help what we desire – desire is a feeling like anger. Anger is not a sin until we ack on it, in the same way that feeling attracted to someone is also not a sin. As Bobby stated you can make a choice – you can act on that feeling and pursue the gorgeous woman (or man, as the case may be) or simply say to yourself, “Wow, God did a magnificent job on that one!” and move onto to doing something else.
” I stated before that even if science declares one day that it is genetic, I will still disagree based solely on the Word of God.”
And I guess that is the end of the thought process.
I think I’ll excuse myself from the conversation now before I seriously consider stabbing myself in the face with an icepick.
Ugh, I know that sounds suuuuuper b*tchy…I apologize, but I can’t understand why you think the way you do, and I know you can’t understand the way I think the way I do. :(
It just makes me so inconceivably sad to hear some of the stuff on here. :(
Rae!
You dropped that bomb yesterday and then disappeared. Did you read my responses?
Yes, exactly what you said above. Repenting means that they recognize that entertaining sexual thoughts or engaging in homosexual sex is a sin and they choose not to do it. But it doesn’t mean that they will suddenly be attracted to women. They are most likely just wired differently. Although as I’ve said, there are some people who practice homosexuality because they are addicted to sex in all forms and I would not say that these people were born that way.
I think an awful lot of emphasis is put on sex, tho. I mean it’s great, but it’s not all there is or even all that important.
This horror everyone seems to have of living a life without sex, tells me that perhaps priorities are out of balance.
Money is nice too, but at what cost? While I agree that a life without sex might be difficult I don’t see it as any more difficult that women that can’t have children, or someone with diabetes that can’t have sugar, or someone that can’t tolerate alcohol. It’s gonna be something, none of us gets a free ride!
Romans 1 is clear on where homosexual behavior comes from.
I don’t see it JLM. I see that when it was chosen, God says, “well, have at it then, but suffer the consequences (handed them over to their lusts) but I don’t see him “creating homosexuals” as a punishment…
JLM – we can’t help what we desire
Patricia,
In all honesty, I disagree. We CHOOSE to desire God, we CHOOSE to desire life, we CHOOSE to desire money, we CHOOSE to desire ourselves or someone else, etc. I believe that everything in life is a choice. We can either choose God and His teachings, or not. If we don’t choose God, we suffer the consequences of that choice.
I posted this verse earlier, and I think it’s pertinent now:
Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
If we desire something of God, we CAN do it!
Powerful stuff, here:
Ephesians 2:2-6
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Okay, guys, talk more in the morning…peace. God bless. G’night.
Rae,
I felt the same way as you did while having this convo. this afternoon.
I honestly can not comprehend that people ACTUALLY believe that turning towards Jesus will turn them “straight.”
JLM,
Why aren’t gay people coming in herds to turn towards Jesus so that they can be straight? Do you think it is because they don’t want to? They want to be sinful and based on what you have said, “suffer the consequences?”
IF it were really possible for this to happen, I imagine that ALMOST everyone who has an attraction for the same sex would RUN to church so as to not have to suffer this life AND eternity in Hell.
You still have yet to show me any instance of a person who turned to Christ and IS ACTUALLY ATTRACTED to the opposite sex. You showed me one article of a man who left his homosexual lifestyle..which means he no longer engages in homosexual sex. I did not read in that article ANYWHERE that he is now attracted to women.
This is why I find your assumption that gay people can be turned straight through Christ to be one of ignorance towards homosexuals.
JLM:
So this is the part that I don’t understand. How can a person still call themselves gay or lesbian after they have repented?
In all sincerity, you won’t get it because you think like a Protestant, not like a Catholic. Remember how the longest thread ended? The lack of understanding on both sides was due to a different way we think about the world and our relationship to God and each other.
“And I guess that is the end of the thought process.
I think I’ll excuse myself from the conversation now before I seriously consider stabbing myself in the face with an icepick.”
This is also the thought process going into the intelligent design lobby.
Science is only allowable when it confirms their belief system.
Science is only allowable when it confirms their belief system.
Not for MEEEEEE!
I accept science and religion for what they are…..which is different than each other. I find both equally as interesting and deep!
Elizabeth,
How was Olive Garden? What’d you have?
Elizabeth,
http://www.churchlink.com.au/churchlink/true_stories/gay.html
excerpt:
“Psalm 16:6 proclaims, “The boundary lines have fallen for me in pleasant places; surely I have a delightful inheritance.” Over the last fourteen years since coming to Christ God has done many wonderful things in me and for me, but the one thing that I treasure above all is my relationship with my wife Louise and my three children Nathaniel, Alexander and Chloe.
God’s transforming power is truly amazing!”
(at the bottom of the story, you can find the link to “meet him”. He is a pastor of a church now).
Here’s a website dedicated to conversions!!! Just click on conversion stories from men, or from women, or from families. I think you’ll find that it is possible through Jesus!
http://exodus.to/stories
If you would like more, please let me know.
Janet,
I had the seafood alfredo and it was DELICIOUS! So was the salad and breadsticks. mmmm mmmm mmmm….
Science is only allowable when it confirms their belief system.
You got it girl!!!!
Lol PiP!
I agree with you Elizabeth. :)
“My point is that just the fact that a gay man or women would not “have another” can not be reason enough to justify homosexual behaviour.”
Bobby, of course that alone doesn’t justify the behavior. However, you start from the premise that it needs to be justified. What justifies heterosexual behavior? Freedom to act,in this country at least, doesn’t need justification. Everything should be allowed that doesn’t impact the rights of others.
JLM, watch that video I posted!!!
PIP,
Your youtube postings frighten me. I’m trying to maintain a pure mind!!! What’s it about????
Oh no PIP, stop corrupting JLM’s mind!!!
ahhhh, the horror!!!
JLM,
If the Bible said the Earth was flat, would you believe it?
LOL I guess we have a different sense of humor.
Elizabeth,
The Bible used to say that the universe was geocentric. Then science became so overwhelming that people saw the old verses in a new light.
JLM the first skit was making fun of exodus international; the 2nd skit made fun of those “life coach” people except he was an apostle for Jesus. Hi-larious.
pip,
I’m just trying to see if JLM will believe anything if it says so in the Bible. It is really annoying to me when I have conversations with people, that they can only quote the Bible. It’s as though they don’t have any original thoughts of their own. I can talk/form opinions and have intellectual discussions without quoting another source CONSTANTLY.
I understand your frustrations Elizabeth. I especially get frustrated too if someone intentionally ignores evidence if they think it might make them interpret these same scriptual passages.
Night! TAlk to you all tomorrow!
MK:
God doesn’t hate anything? Again MK, I will let the Bible contradict your assertion. I think JLM and I both love you enough not to let you ignore God’s plain Word. I think your Catholic faith is beautiful, however, God’s Word must come first always and anything that contradicts it must be rejected. As I have stated before, there are many teachings of the RCC that I wholeheartedley agree with.
Deuteronomy 12:31
You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
Deuteronomy 16:22
and do not erect a sacred stone, for these the LORD your God hates.
Amos 5:15
Hate evil, love good; maintain justice in the courts. Perhaps the LORD God Almighty will have mercy on the remnant of Joseph.
Malachi 2:16
“I hate divorce,” says the LORD God of Israel, “and I hate a man’s covering himself with violence as well as with his garment,” says the LORD Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.
Hebrews 1:9
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.” [ Psalm 45:6,7]
I think it is safe to say that God hates evil.
And PIP, while it is very tragic and supremely regrettable (and I wish would never happen again), the suicide of A homosexual trying to go straight, is not enough to convince me that 6,000 years of biblical history and 66 books of the Bible are wrong. There must have been other factors involved that you don’t know about. Besides, heterosexuals commit suicide all the time. This proves nothing.
HisMan:1:44:
Good morning. I want you to know, my family is praying for Sean and his family.
I don’t want to get into a heated debatelike the longest thread, but I want to address something from your last post.>
I think your Catholic faith is beautiful, however, God’s Word must come first always and anything that contradicts it must be rejected
Maybe you can help me understand this idea of contradiction in light of a related term “paradox”, where:
A paradox can be an apparently true statement or group of statements that leads to a contradiction or a situation which defies intuition; or it can be, seemingly opposite, an apparent contradiction that actually expresses a non-dual truth (cf. Koan). Typically, either the statements in question do not really imply the contradiction, the puzzling result is not really a contradiction, or the premises themselves are not all really true or cannot all be true together. The word paradox is often used interchangeably with contradiction. Often, mistakenly, it is used to describe situations that are ironic. (wikipedia)
In trying to interpret the Bible, how does the average reader know what is paradox, what is contradiction, or something else all together without using the oral teaching of the Church? Biblical/Catholics scholars have been studying this since Jesus’ time. With this in mind, how does one interpret the following statement “the Bible can’t contradict itself” to discern all truth from God’s written word alone? Not easy questions, I know, but I would appreciate any enlightenment you can give me on the subject. Thanks. God bless you.
Hisman,
Now look up the greek/hebrew word for hate in those passages. I’d wager that “hate” isn’t a correct translation.
He can’t tolerate, is angered by…sure…but this is all motivated by love, not hate in it’s purest sesnse.
And there is NOTHING in my Catholic Faith that contradicts scripture. It might contradict your personal interpretation of scripture, but that’s not the same thing.
Heck, you said that men that were effeminate were as bad as homosexuals, and I showed that effeminate in that case, meant young boys that were used for sex. You based an entire premise on a word that you misinterpreted. You gotta ask yourself how many other times you have done the same thing…
Janet,
Is this what you have in mind?
“The whole secret of mysticism is that a person can understand everything with the help of what he does not understand. The logician seeks to make everything clear, and only succeeds in making everything mysterious. The mystic allows a few things to remain mysterious, and everything else becomes clear.”
Janet,
By the way…I love reading Sheen, but I too
have a hard time “watching” him. I have a hard time watching EWTN for the same reason, but love relevant radio.
Here is that website on paradoxes I was telling you about…
http://www.basicincome.com/bp/egsofparadox.htm
“By the way…I love reading Sheen, but I too
have a hard time “watching” him. I have a hard time watching EWTN for the same reason”
Wait, what did I miss here? How can anyone have a hard time watching Bishop Sheen?
Bobby,
I sent a video of Sheen giving a talk on false compassion, and she said she has a hard time watching him because he talks so slowly. I feel the same way. But I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to read him.
Now look up the greek/hebrew word for hate in those passages. I’d wager that “hate” isn’t a correct translation.
It is. It comes from the Hebrew word “sane'”, which means to hate, be hateful.
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H08130&t=kjv
I’m just trying to see if JLM will believe anything if it says so in the Bible. It is really annoying to me when I have conversations with people, that they can only quote the Bible. It’s as though they don’t have any original thoughts of their own. I can talk/form opinions and have intellectual discussions without quoting another source CONSTANTLY.
Elizabeth,
Yes. I will believe EVERYTHING in the bible. It’s God’s word, not the world’s word. I live my life by faith. I have original thoughts of my own, but I always make sure that my thoughts line up with the greatest instruction book for life ever written…the Holy Bible. When I quote a verse, it is certainly not to annoy you or cause you to be frustrated….my point of view does come from what the Word of God says, and the best way to show what type of point I’m making, is to use God’s Word, word for word. You are more than welcome to ridicule me for that until the end of time. It’s ok. You are not the first to do so, and most certainly won’t be the last. I’m not offended by your comment, I just wanted to clarify that I do not quote bible verses to anger, annoy or frustrate anyone.
Pip 12:00 AM. I am still not convinced of the heliocentric universe myself. I believe in a geocentric universe.
And also, the Bible says the earth is round. And that it flows freely in space. I believe that too. Call me crazy if you like. That’s what I believe.
4. The word “hate” in the Bible is often used to express priority and preference rather than emotional hatred.
For example, in Deuteronomy 21:15-17 the word refers to a preference rather than an emotional hatred. The same is true of Malachi 1:2-3.
If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons but the firstborn is the son of the wife he does not love [literally, the hated wife], when he wills his property to his sons, he must not give the rights of the firstborn to the son of the wife he loves in preference to his actual firstborn, the son of the wife he does not love. He must acknowledge the son of his unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double share of all he has. That son is the first sign of his father’s strength. The right of the firstborn belongs to him.
Deuteronomy 21:15-17
“I have loved you,” says the LORD. “But you ask, ‘How have you loved us?’ “Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” the LORD says. “Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.”
Malachi 1:2-3
http://jewsforjesus.org/answers/jesus/family
Answer
Hi Kevin,
Jeremiah 31:3 is a bit problematic. Most English translations insert a word which is not there, “saying”, to imply that God is saying it to Jeremiah. But that word does not appear in the original text, and a casual reading of 31:3 will lead a Hebrew reader to believe that it is Jeremiah who loves the Lord “an everlasting love.” Either way, the phrase is to be interpreted as ‘unconditional love.’
As to Hate: In the Biblical sense, I interpret it to be an extreme dislike, rather than a passionate hate.
Abhor: The correct translation of Leviticus 26:30 (‘Ga’alah nafshi’) is ‘my soul is nauseated’ rather than ‘my soul shall abhor you’. ‘Ga’alah’ means Cleansing, Expelling, as in the act of vomiting.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Hebrew-Language-1605/LORD-Love-Hate.htm
As to Hate: In the Biblical sense, I interpret it to be an extreme dislike, rather than a passionate hate.
I think that is actually the definition of hate, Marykay.. Here is what I pulled up from the internet:
: extreme dislike or antipathy
to have strong emotions against; to consider as an enemy; opposite of love
Jam 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
By the way, Marykay, I did enjoy our discussion yesterday on the phone. :)
I haven’t gotten the guts to talk to my mom yet but I am hoping I will work up the courage soon.
I’ll give you that Bethany, it’s just that our understanding of the word “hate” in 2008 can lead one to believe that “hating” people for who they are is okay. And the way we hate today usually leads to violence.
So I hestitate to say that God is capable of “hating” the way it is understood today. Everything that God does is out of love. If we lose site of that, we lose site of God.
B,
Let the spirit do the talking…just open your mouth and the right words will come. And maybe your mom will listen.
Personally, I like this one best:
The correct translation of Leviticus 26:30 (‘Ga’alah nafshi’) is ‘my soul is nauseated’
As to Hate: In the Biblical sense, I interpret it to be an extreme dislike, rather than a passionate hate.
OK! I ageee. Here’s the definition of hate from the Encarta Dictionary:
Hate: dislike somebody or something intensely (transitive verb) to dislike somebody or something intensely, often in a way that evokes feelings of anger, hostility, or animosity.
I’m not really seeing the point, here, mk. Are you trying to say that God doesn’t intensely dislike evil?
I know that we take on the word “hate” as a very, ugly, offensive word. We all seem to put a stigma on the word to make it ugly. But whether you look at the Hebrew translation of sale’, or the English definition of hate itself…it’s still the same thing. We tend to define hate as the opposite of love, when in reality, it doesn’t really mean that.
” I am still not convinced of the heliocentric universe myself. I believe in a geocentric universe.”
Bethany, have you heard of a guy named Robert Sungenis? Although he’s a Catholic apologist, he too is a geocentrist. He recently wrote a 1000 page book called “Galileo was Wrong!” YOu might be interested in it http://catholicintl.com/products/books/gwwprint.htm
Also, I think what we should mean by “hate” in its most absolute sense is “wishing ill or harm upon someone” i.e. the opposite of charity. In THAT sense I don’t think God hates anyone, since hate and charity would be mutually exclusive. God love you.
To those of you who believe that what we think doesn’t matter to God. Why do you think God looks at the heart, rather than the outward appearance of man?
The Bible says that we are not only to DO good, but to THINK good thoughts too. We are to meditate on GOOD things, PURE things, HONEST things. If we are thinking about having sex with someone who is of the same sex as us, we are sinning. If we are thinking about, and calculating on going to the bank to rob it, and yet you never do rob it, the fact that you were planning to in your heart is a sin. If you are thinking about having sex with a person outside of your marriage, and yet do not have sex with that person, you are sinning.
Thinking IS a “do”.
Thinking is an action.
We can and DO choose the thoughts that we think.
We are not forced to lust after other people, and we are not forced to dwell on things that upset us.
We are not forced to hate people in our heart. We are not forced to remind ourselves of how much we dislike someone.
All of these things are “inward” but they are JUST as important as what we do outwardly. Why?
Because it is FROM THE HEART that we sin. This is where the sin comes from!
Please think about this analogy. The Bible says that “when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin. And when sin hath conceived, it bringeth forth DEATH.”
To continue with this analogy, the heart is the conception point for the sin.
When we nurture or allow those desires to continue in our heart, that sin is developing, just as an embryo develops in the womb.
It will continue to grow and to grow, until we finally make the decision to ABORT that sin.
If we do not ABORT that sin, it will develop and will eventually give birth to the physical sin.
(You will no longer be able to keep that sin within your heart, it will manifest itself physically).
Bethany, have you heard of a guy named Robert Sungenis? Although he’s a Catholic apologist, he too is a geocentrist. He recently wrote a 1000 page book called “Galileo was Wrong!” YOu might be interested in it http://catholicintl.com/products/books/gwwprint.htm
No I haven’t heard of him before, but I’ll be sure to check that out! :)
B,
Who was that post directed at? Who thinks that thinking cannot be sinful? Cuz both Bobby and I have said that to willfully think sinful thoughts is an action, and a sin…
I guess maybe we are speaking different languages again because it just sounds like the Catholic Church is saying that as long as you keep your desires within yourself and never act on them, you’re a-okay.
“Homosexual desires, however, are not in themselves sinful.”
– Catholic Answers
http://www.catholic.com/library/Homosexuality.asp
@JLM,
the question about hate still remains. Try doing a wee bit of thinking first: What does it mean when we say God has emotions? For humans emotions are transient realities, but what do they mean in an eternal being? Are God’s emotions eternal?
Before answering, how can an omnipotent being forget anything, and yet God forgets sin?
BTW because you are not versed in science: unlike what most people believe about genetics,a zinc deficit can actually alter the DNA code and along with vitamin B6 is responsible for over 90% of all genetic diseases. Is homosexual cravings/tendencies of a zinc deficit origin? Sleeping with another of the same sex is to act on inclinations and biblically wrong. Is intervening in the formation process to alter inclinations bad or non-scriptural?.
I think by desires here, they mean that a person is attracted to the opposite sex. Not actively desiring…If those desires are given free reign, even in thought, then they are sins.
It’s hard to come up with a word that describes what we mean by homosexual without using a word that can also mean “lusting”, actively desiring, seeking…see?
I desire sex with a man because I am heterosexual, but I’m not lusting after men. I could however have sinful desires for men…am I making sense?
By no means is the Catholic Church saying that lusting in your head is okay.
John, I think that in many, many cases, homosexuality develops as a result of a distanced father, and the child’s need for a father figure. They get confused and they make very wrong decisions in trying to fulfill that need their father denied them.
I do not think that it is ever something that they are born with. A zinc deficiency could not be a sin. Homosexual thoughts and actions are sinful in themselves.
If they truly were born with it, I would say that it would be cruel to subject them to a life of chastity. However, I do not believe they are born with it. I believe that they get terribly confused from early on, and it is almost always (I would venture to say that it was ALL cases) because of a problem in their family. The devil LOVES to play tricks on people who are confused.
the question about hate still remains. Try doing a wee bit of thinking first: What does it mean when we say God has emotions? For humans emotions are transient realities, but what do they mean in an eternal being? Are God’s emotions eternal?
Before answering, how can an omnipotent being forget anything, and yet God forgets sin?
God can remove sin and yes, He can forget it. If He said He could do it, what reason do I have to doubt that He will be good on His promise? He promised to remove my sins as far as the east is from the west, and He promises that He will not remember them.
As for whether God’s emotions are eternal, yes. He eternally hates sin.
I do think that God can ALSO have temporary emotions though, because He many times was angered with people in the Old Testament, and then was appeased. How could this be if his emotions were always eternal?
He created us in His image and likeness, which is why WE have emotions and can understand many of His.
Okay, Marykay :)
Bethany,
I guess I can’t really argue about that…
What, that I’m crazy? haha
That’s okay, you’re in good company. Lots of people think I’m crazy. LOL
But Bethany, if it “flows freely in space” how can the solar system be geocentric? Doesn’t the bible say it is fixed firmly in space?
LOL Bethany,
I don’t think you are crazy, I think some of your ideas are a little out there, but it is not unheard of!
But Bethany, if it “flows freely in space” how can the solar system be geocentric? Doesn’t the bible say it is fixed firmly in space?
I’m sorry, PIP, I totally worded that wrong. My bad!
I meant that it is hanging in space, freely. There is nothing attaching it to anything, but it is floating. I don’t know what I was thinking wording it that way.
You are correct about what the Bible says about it. :)
Re: 8:50 Thanks! :)
Bethany,
Thank you for replying to John’s posts. I couldn’t have said it better myself.
You rock, crazy girl!!!
Dear Elizabeth, MK and PIP,
I love reading what you wrote. I do. I hear your LOVE and COMPASSION through your words and that touches me. You have homosexual friends that you love. Me too.
I do believe God do anything with a person who longs to change. God can work with a soft heart.
My abortion was not an isolated incident. My lifestyle of living out of the flesh, following my lustful thoughts, drinking, partying and unhealthy relationships, HPV, cancerous cells on my cervic all happened prior to my pregnancy. I would have continued on this path but I became broken after the abortion. I was without hope and I saw before no other option but suicide. Instead I cried out to Jesus and He heard me. He restored my soul and is also restoring my wasted years. I am thankful that God saw fit to use the abortion experience to draw me to Himself. I regret the choice. I rejoice in His forgiveness.
What I am trying to say is if a homosexual feels trapped and in despair and contemplates suicide I believe that Jesus can change their hearts. And change their same sex attraction.
The homosexuals I know have hardened hearts and are very in my face about their sexuality and outspoken about same sex marriage etc. You can’t legislate acceptance. I can love my friends though!! I do!
@Elizabeth, PiP and anybody else: Here is an article about Darren Hayes the former lead-singer of Savage Garden. He came out as gay about 2 years ago and this is his story:
http://darrenhayesnet.com/darren_hayes_advocate_magazine.html
Rae, Darren Hayes kind of proves to me that every gay person has a bad family background. Darren’s father used to beat him as a child.
And I don’t mean that in a bad way. I feel SO sad that these people have gone through this. I think that the gay reaction will never really solve what the true root of the problem is. Even in the article you posted, he said that he “truly fell in love with girls” when he was younger. He wasn’t born gay. He was raised without love.
Also, his father didn’t beat him as a result of his being gay. His father beat him because his father was an alcoholic who had violent rages.
Dear Elizabeth, MK and PIP,
I love reading what you wrote. I do. I hear your LOVE and COMPASSION through your words and that touches me.
Carla, amen amen amen, to your whole post, and thank you for emphasizing this point!
If they truly were born with it, I would say that it would be cruel to subject them to a life of chastity. However, I do not believe they are born with it. I believe that they get terribly confused from early on, and it is almost always (I would venture to say that it was ALL cases) because of a problem in their family. The devil LOVES to play tricks on people who are confused.
Bethany,
Is it not cruel for children born with diabetes to have to give themselves shots of insulin and check their BP all the time? Or is it cruel for children with leukemia to have to go through chemo and radiation for most of their life?
Now..you may say those are out of their control..which they are..but it is still cruel for the children to have to endure such pain. And, if you don’t believe that homosexuality is something you are born with, then you can not see the relation between those things I listed and homosexuality. But I simply don’t see it that way. I think it is something you are born with…like childhood diabetes or leukemia. Now they can choose to do what is best for them and go through things that are hard for them (like remaining chaste), or they can choose to not to. You may call it cruel, but some people also think it’s cruel for a woman to have to go through a pregnancy she doesn’t want. But YOU AND I both see that as just taking responsibility for yourself..which is what gay people do when they remain chaste.
Do you understand what I’m trying to say whether you agree or not?
And if not, let’s just agree to disagree then okay? Because arguing with you guys is exhausting…I’m sure glad I’m pro-life or you guys would have drained my energy a looooooong time ago. :)
Sounds good to me, elizabeth!!! I totally understand your point of view. Just disagree. :) Agreeing to disagree is probably the best thing to do if we don’t want another 4,000 poster! :)
OH, and my family needs lots o’ prayers today, guys. My doggy is really not doing so well, and this weekend we may have to put him to sleep. Only we might not be able to unless it is free or something because we don’t have the money for it right now. And he is really not doing so good. Neither is my mom…she’s pretty much having a meltdown and won’t come out of her room. She really loves Mr. Hemingway. We all do. :(
@Bethany: If somebody of your same gender mistreats you as you grow up, why on earth would you become attracted to somebody of that same gender that hurt you?
B,
I would say that it would be cruel to subject them to a life of chastity.
You keep saying this and I keep asking you why? Is it cruel to subject a single woman to a life of chasitity?
Elizabeth,
I am sorry about your sweet pooch. I am praying for you and yours.
Yeah, and I wasn’t involved in the 4,000 post thread, thank God…this one’s taken up quite a bit of me time as it is!
B,
That is what I was getting at when I asked if it was cruel to subject a deaf person to a life without music, or a blind person to a life without color, a you to a pregnancy that ended in a miscarriage.
There are a million wonderful things in life, but we don’t all get to do all of them.
Is it cruel to subject a man to being a man, because he can then never have children? Or a woman to being a woman because she can never know what it’s like to have a penis?
We’re given what we’re given, we are who we are. Each life will have it’s limitations. Is that cruel?
Or a woman to being a woman because she can never know what it’s like to have a penis?
I, for one, am really, REALLY okay with this! I wouldn’t want to have one of those things!
You keep saying this and I keep asking you why? Is it cruel to subject a single woman to a life of chasitity?
Yes. If it is forced.
If the woman doesn’t desire to be chaste and does desire to be married. It would be cruel.
@Elizabeth: But…with a penis you can write your name in the snow when you have to take a whizz! Lol. :-p
You keep saying this and I keep asking you why? Is it cruel to subject a single woman to a life of chasitity?
Posted by: mk at April 8, 2008 9:42 AM
Yes, it’s cruel. Unless the single woman wanted it. Sexuality is a huge part of being human (for some people). Some people believe it is best left to married couples, and some people believe it’s better to be sexual with a few people before you get married (0r after you get married for those divorced people out there). Whatever consenting adults want to do is fine by me. Don’t you agree?
B,
So if a woman desires to be married but God desires that she remain single and chaste, and no husband comes along, then God is cruel?
Isn’t marriage a gift from God the same way children are? Isn’t a spouse “given” to you?
But…with a penis you can write your name in the snow when you have to take a whizz!
Rae, Oh the sacrifices I make as a woman!
I would rather sit down when I pee personally…except in public restrooms.
That is what I was getting at when I asked if it was cruel to subject a deaf person to a life without music, or a blind person to a life without color, a you to a pregnancy that ended in a miscarriage.
Marykay, the problem with these analogies is that WE don’t subject a deaf person to life without music. Their disability does.
If WE could, WE would let them see.
A homosexual person, according to your belief, does not have the ability to be attracted to women. Therefore, it is not YOU who subjects them to a life of not being able to feel feelings for women, it is they.
However, they ARE (according to your beliefs) able to feel attraction to the opposite sex. This would be analogous to the fact that blind people can still use braille to read books.
Would you deny a blind person the option of reading braille, because that is an alternative way of being able to “see”?
I knew I was going to regret that penis comment!
Hey Hal, wow ,we agree!! :)
Hehe, no MK, it’s a nice change of pace I would say!
Hal,
We all have free will. If a couple decides to have sex sans marriage they are making a choice. That choice will have consequences. If you are living a Christian life, then we believe that consequence is forfeiting heaven. You don’t. That’s a choice you have made. Either I’m right and you’ll suffer the consequences, or I’m wrong and you won’t.
But we are talking about Christian values here.
Would I put people in jail for having sex outside of marriage? No. But I would certainly be remiss in my Christian duties if I condoned it.
So I agree that it is up to the individual, as are all choices…but I disagree that couples are making a good choice.
With abortion, a life is being taken, and that’s the only reason I actively seek to end it. With homosexuality or sex sans marriage, I desire these people’s happiness so I am against it, but I certainly wouldn’t actively seek to make it illegal.
So if a woman desires to be married but God desires that she remain single and chaste, and no husband comes along, then God is cruel?
Isn’t marriage a gift from God the same way children are? Isn’t a spouse “given” to you?
Marykay, we are talking about two different things here.
A woman who desires to live a married life can be following God’s will.
A woman who desires to live a chaste life can be following God’s will.
Do you make the distinction for them?
Do you tell them, because of this or that, you HAVE to be chaste forever, even though your hearts desire is to get married and have children?
Do you tell them, because of this or that, you HAVE to be chaste forever, even though your hearts desire is to get married and have children?
If they aren’t ever married then YES!
B,
A homosexual, imo, does not subject himself to same sex attraction any more than a blind person subjects himself to being blind. It is God’s will. Not theirs.
Using braille would be more analagous to living a chaste life.
Using what you can to make the most of what you have.
Asking a homosexual to become heterosexual is akin to asking a blind person to see.
If I could give sight to a blind person I would. If I could change a homosexuals preferences I would. But I can’t. Only God can make a blind person see, and only God can make a homosexual heterosexual.
It is an act of God. Not an act of will.
MK, 10:03 a.m. I would have to agree there.
B,
If a woman desires marriage and children, but God desires that she remain single, then she must bend her will to Gods. Remaining single, will mean remaining celibate.
If this is the plan that God had for her, then this is the plan that God had for her. She must choose to follow her own desires (and seek sex outside of marriage) or follow God’s desires and forgo sex.
Ask the single women on this board. JLM isn’t married. She must remain chaste. Elizabeth isn’t married. She must remain chaste.
A homosexual has been given a certain characteristic that will make it impossible for him to ever enjoy conjugal sex. Is this anymore cruel than a woman who desires to get married but isn’t given a spouse? Do you think that just because Elizabeth wants to find a wonderful Christian man, that she has the “right” to one? Or is that Gods decision? What is she supposed to do?
Elizabeth and JLM and Jacquie would all probably prefer to have good Christian partners. But so far, God has not sent them one. Perhaps He never will. Is this cruel? Or is it just the way it is?
A homosexual, imo, does not subject himself to same sex attraction any more than a blind person subjects himself to being blind. It is God’s will. Not theirs.
Using braille would be more analagous to living a chaste life.
Using what you can to make the most of what you have.
Asking a homosexual to become heterosexual is akin to asking a blind person to see.
If I could give sight to a blind person I would. If I could change a homosexuals preferences I would. But I can’t. Only God can make a blind person see, and only God can make a homosexual heterosexual.
It is an act of God. Not an act of will.
Explain how using braille could be analogous to living a chaste life?
Here is the situation…
Let’s take gay people, hypothetically born that way. What they HAVE is an attraction to their own sex, correct? They do NOT have the attraction to the opposite sex. That is the “blindness”.
If they “make the most of what they have”, as you say, that would mean that they went ahead and spent their life with who they ARE attracted to. That is making the most of what they DO have. Which is the attraction to the same sex.
Not that they simply suppressed those desires their entire life.
Suppressing your innermost NATURAL GOD GIVEN feelings is very dangerous. I do not believe that homosexuals truly are born that way. But if they were, I would believe it would be very dangerous for them emotionally, for them to be forced to suppress their NATURAL GOD GIVEN DESIRES.
God doesn’t give people homosexual desires. He allows them to give into their lusts, but He does not ever cause people to sin, NEVER.
again, caps-Emphasis, not shouting! LOL
Thanks Elizabeth,
I think the trouble comes with believing that being homosexual is a choice. Sometimes it might be, but mostly I don’t think so.
I’ll even give you that in some men, they are born with a tendency and that tendency can be exaggerated by abuse or a weak father figure. But I believe the tendency is inborn.
Elizabeth and JLM and Jacquie would all probably prefer to have good Christian partners. But so far, God has not sent them one. Perhaps He never will. Is this cruel? Or is it just the way it is?
What if a gay person says that his partner (same sex) is his God-given partner and that he loves him with all his heart?
This is not a matter of “this person just doesn’t have someone available to be with them at the moment”.
This is a matter of, they may very well have someone they truly love and care about, and yet the Catholic church is saying they are not allowed to have that love, even though the catholic church says that their desire for this person is God given and they are indeed born with those desires.
do you see where I am coming from yet?
Exactly MK!
Nothing terrible that has ever happened to me in my life causes me to say, “Hmmm, maybe I like women instead of men.” Never. I don’t think I could ever make the choice to like women, either. I.just.like.men.
So if people are abused or have a weak father figure, they probably also had those tendencies previously…the abuse or neglect exacerbated the situation, though.
Just like some people get cancer and some don’t. I believe they have a weakening in their cells that causes them to divide uncontrollably. Some people don’t have this weakness, which is why they never get cancer.
okay, people, it’s shower time!
That is what I was getting at when I asked if it was cruel to subject a deaf person to a life without music, or a blind person to a life without color, a you to a pregnancy that ended in a miscarriage.
mk,
I am only using your post above as a starting point. I see that many others are following this train of thought, so it’s not just directed to you, but others also! :)
I think that using diabetes, deafness, blindness, etc. is comparing apples to oranges. I say this, because the bible does not say that any of these things are evil. They are not good to us, but somehow, for some reason, that’s how God made these people, and their purpose only He knows. You can’t say say that God created a homosexual. Homosexuality is evil and detested by God. God doesn’t create evil, we choose it.
Comparing homosexuality, an evilness, to a disease is absurd. Not to mention that many diseases that people are born with are a result of their enviornments, medications they may have taken, vaccinations, etc.
God did not create us to suffer. He created us because He loves us and wants the best for us. When WE decide that we know better, and don’t choose Him, we suffer consequences all across the board.
Again B,
there is nothing sinful in not being attracted to the opposite sex, or being attracted to the same sex.
It is a natural God given desire to have sex period. Should 14 year olds give in to this? Is it okay, since it is natural? Every 14 year boy in the world wants to boff a girl. Or how about masturbation? The desire to feel good sexually? Should we give in to this too? Did God cause us to sin, because touching ourselves feels good?
Is Elizabeth a sinner because she wishes she could have sex, but can’t because she isn’t married? You aren’t answering that question.
A blind person cannot see. So he does what he can and uses braille. He accepts his blindness and moves on.
A homosexual cannot be attracted to the opposite sex, so he forgos sex, and moves on. He accepts his limitations. He uses chastity.
Good heavens girl, sex is good, but it ain’t EVERYTHING! I think it’s sad that you are sounding like a person cannot be happy unless they are allowed to have sex! Surely there is more to life than doing the dirty deed!
I think it’s more pathetic that you view a life without sex as so horrible that the person can’t find happiness without it, than I do the fact that some people will just have to live a life without sex…
On another note, when I was younger and someone would do something wrong, they would say, “The devil made me do it”.
Twenty years later, it has become “It’s Genetic”.
Science will not give God credit where credit is due, and will blame Him when it’s convenient. I’m sorry, this thinking just irritates me!
PIP you said: “The Bible used to say that the universe was geocentric. Then science became so overwhelming that people saw the old verses in a new light.”
No where did the Bible ever say this? The RCC church taught this, NOT the Bible.
Please quote chapter and verse!
I’m sorry, science should not assume the Bible is incorrect, rather, the Bible’s assertions should be assumed correct and then confirmed by science, otherwise science is elevated above God’s Word.
I’ll be looking for those geocentric chapters and verses.
Here’s a few of mine:
Statements Consistent With Paleontology:
Dinosaurs are referred to in several Bible books. The book of Job describes two dinosaurs. One is described in chapter 40 starting at verse 15, and the other in chapter 41 starting at verse 1.
Statements Consistent With Astronomy:
The Bible frequently refers to the great number of stars in the heavens. Here are two examples.
Genesis 22:17
Blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies.
Jeremiah 33:22
Oh Lord, here we go.
Science CAN NOT measure the spiritual..it can only measure the physical!
If any of you can come up with a SCIENTIFIC experiment on how you measure God, let me know!
I’m sorry, science should not assume the Bible is incorrect, rather, the Bible’s assertions should be assumed correct and then confirmed by science, otherwise science is elevated above God’s Word.
AMEN!!!!!!!!
Elizabeth,
I think you’re missing the point. The bible is clear on physical things, like the flood that happened. There are many, many physical things that the bible tells us happened that science denounces. This is what me & HisMan are trying to say. HisMan’s post was beautifully written and well said!
Bethany,
The catholic church isn’t saying that they can’t “love”. They are just saying that they can’t express that love through sex. I have girlfriends that I love dearly, and I’m not sinning.
A gay person cannot get married or have sex. That’s just the way it is.
You and JLM think that simply being homosexual is a sin. The Catholic Church (and I) don’t. We recognize that a person can be homosexual and never sin.
Looking at it from your point of view, you don’t separate the person from the sin. You seem to think that just being gay is a sin. We don’t. So we’re never going to agree on whether or not God “created” them this way.
As I’ve said, there is more to being gay than just sex. Surely you can see, that for the most part, gay mens brains work differently in other areas. Just think “shoes”…lol.
Again B,
there is nothing sinful in not being attracted to the opposite sex, or being attracted to the same sex.
It is a natural God given desire to have sex period. Should 14 year olds give in to this? Is it okay, since it is natural? Every 14 year boy in the world wants to boff a girl. Or how about masturbation? The desire to feel good sexually? Should we give in to this too? Did God cause us to sin, because touching ourselves feels good?
These are all things that we can CHOOSE, Marykay. You say that a gay person can’t CHOOSE to desire someone of the other sex, and if this is true, and ENTIRE LIFE of never being allowed to spend their lives with other men (even if there was no intercourse involved), would be cruel. This doesn’t negate the fact that I believe wholeheartedly that it is a choice, just as being an alcoholic is a choice. Just as being a compulsive gambler is a choice. None of these things are something that God genetically compels others to do.
If you were to say, ” a 14 year old boy wants to boff a girl…and then to say, “This means that he should remain chaste for his entire life. I’d say you were crazy. And entire life time of not being allowed to do what God genetically designed you to do…that would be crazy.
Is Elizabeth a sinner because she wishes she could have sex, but can’t because she isn’t married? You aren’t answering that question.
Are you telling her she must remain chaste her entire lifetime, even if she finds someone who she loves and desires to spend her life with, and gets married? Of course not.
A blind person cannot see. So he does what he can and uses braille. He accepts his blindness and moves on.
Then if God truly created homosexuals for the chaste lifestyle, why would he not create them with no desire for anyone instead of creating them with a sin they could not control?
A homosexual cannot be attracted to the opposite sex, so he forgos sex, and moves on. He accepts his limitations. He uses chastity.
So do you think it’s okay for a gay person to live with another person of the same sex, because they are attracted to them, as long as they never have sex or ever have lustful thoughts towards each other? Is just kissing okay, as long as they aren’t thinking about sex? I mean, I just wonder where you draw the line, since you think this is totally natural and God given.
Good heavens girl, sex is good, but it ain’t EVERYTHING! I think it’s sad that you are sounding like a person cannot be happy unless they are allowed to have sex! Surely there is more to life than doing the dirty deed!
Marykay, I am sure of all people you know that I don’t think sex is everything. Please do not put words in my mouth.
And please try to remember that since we are typing, we can’t hear the inflections in each other’s voices like we can on the phone. Remember that as bold or offensive as things sometimes sound on the internet, in print, they are not nearly as hard to hear in person. We had a approx. 4 hour conversation yesterday where neither of us got angry, we just kept discussing. Just wanted to mention this so you dont feel like any of my posts are trying to attack you.
On another note, when I was younger and someone would do something wrong, they would say, “The devil made me do it”.
*
Twenty years later, it has become “It’s Genetic”.
Yeah, well, 100 years ago people were locked up if the had bipolar or epilepsy. Now we know it genetic.
Two thousand years ago, you’d be stoned or isolated for having leprosy.
Or your parents got blamed for sinning if you were born blind.
The catholic church isn’t saying that they can’t “love”. They are just saying that they can’t express that love through sex. I have girlfriends that I love dearly, and I’m not sinning.
Do you have boyfriends that you love and are attracted to, and spend time with yet, just not expressing that love through sex?
What you are saying about your girlfriends is not analogous because you do not feel an attraction to your girlfriends.
It would be more analogous to talk about your many boyfriends who you spend time with and love (and are attracted to) without having sex.
Darn it, I have to go! This conversation has been so interesting too. I have procrastinated getting in the shower long enough. Gotta go to the CPC. See you all later!
Then if God truly created homosexuals for the chaste lifestyle, why would he not create them with no desire for anyone instead of creating them with a sin they could not control?
Why would he create Elizabeth with a desire for sex and then not send her a spouse? You ask if Elizabeth must remain chaste until she dies…well, if she doesn’t get married, then yes.
Do you think God owes her a spouse?
If a woman can’t have children, is God being cruel? Why would He create her with a desire for motherhood but not allow her to become a mother? Why would He design her to physically carry and give birth to children and then not give her any?
Sex is not a God given right. It is a gift. Marriage is not a God given right. It is a gift.
Children are not God given rights, they are gifts.
If God chooses not to give the gift of spousal union to someone, the so be it.
John McDonnell will probably never get married and have kids. Was this a cruel joke that God played on him? Why wouldn’t God just create John without the desire to produce a family? Why would He leave the desire and then make it nigh impossible for him to live a married life? Or someone like Val, who can’t have any more kids, but also can’t adopt because of her depression. Why doesn’t God take away the desire to have a larger family?
As I’ve said, there is more to being gay than just sex. Surely you can see, that for the most part, gay mens brains work differently in other areas. Just think “shoes”…lol.
Good post, mk!
what I don’t understand, though…and I’m being sincere in this question: Before a gay man “comes out of the closet”, he pronounces his “S’s” just fine. He “comes out”, and lo & behold, the accent changes. That’s not genetic!!! But lesbians accents don’t change. Can anyone explain this one to me???
John McDonnell will probably never get married and have kids. Was this a cruel joke that God played on him? Why wouldn’t God just create John without the desire to produce a family? Why would He leave the desire and then make it nigh impossible for him to live a married life? Or someone like Val, who can’t have any more kids, but also can’t adopt because of her depression. Why doesn’t God take away the desire to have a larger family?
I’m not really big on the scientific stuff, as you all know. But I do know that in biblical times, people lived very, very long lives. I hear about how much we’ve crapped up the earth over the years, and destroyed sea life, vegetation, etc. I believe that these enviornmental factors play a huge role in genetic alterations. But, I don’t believe for a second that God created a person to be miserable. At what point do we accept responsibility for our own actions??? Certainly, what we did to the earth and the repercussions are not fair to innocent people like John, or the child that is born with diabetes, but isn’t some of this “our fault” for not taking care of God’s awesome creation, Earth?
Our society wants to blame God. Our society wants to put the blame on anyone else but the sinner.
Years ago, a HUGE boom in psychiatric care took place. People were going to their therapists like one would go to the grocery store. It was never the person’s fault for anything bad that happened. The patient was NEVER to blame. It was their mother’s fault, their father’s fault. At no point did the individual ever have to take responsibilty for their own actions. I’m not saying that some people are not affected by past incidents, because they are. This is so sad to me.
Alcoholics are another thing. Society calls this a disease. It’s a choice. The alchohlic isn’t drunk until he/she takes that first drink. When holding that first glass, the alchoholic is sober, and has a choice. They can give in to their desires and drink it, or they can use this old-fashioned thing called “will power” and put it down.
People need to stop playing the vicitm of circumstances, get their strength from the Lord, move on and use these circumstances to become victors!!!!
We need to take responsibility for our own actions, and stop playing the victim!
**end rant**
MK:
OK, MK you’re right about the “effeminate” term to mean male prostitute. But I think the warning of that verse is strong enough to keep anyone, who is a true believer, from not wanting to go the homosexual route.
However, MK, I think actions follow thought. We are kidding ourselves if we teach that it is OK to have thoughts about something without them eventually leading to lust or action. This is playing with fire. After all, the vast majority of the spiritual battles we fight goes on between our ears.
Didn’t Jesus say that we were guilty of adultery if we just lusted in our hearts for a woman? Lust is a mental activity.
And I don’t equate seeing a beautiful girl and admiring her as beautiful a lustful act. However, the line is crossed when I want that person and think about sex with her. If I make it a habit to look at women for the sole purpose of admiring their beauty, I think it becomes very difficult not to cross that line into lust which is adultery.
Having said all that, a man having a desire for a woman is natural. A man having a desire for a man is not natural and to teach that it somehow is or can be without acting on it I think really dangerous.
Now, do I think it wrong for a man to love another man, absolutely not. I have many male friends that I love and would die for. However, never once has that love ever resulted in a sexual attraction or desire.
Hey JLM, I like the way you wield the Sword.
Janet:
I’ll need a few hours to ponder your question.
I admit I can make mistakes so I’ll really need to think about this one.
HisMan,
Thank you & likewise!!!
:)
JLM,
People need to stop playing the vicitm of circumstances, get their strength from the Lord, move on and use these circumstances to become victors!!!!
Well isnt’ that exactly what I’m saying homosexuals need to do? This is how God made them. He gave them certain traits that would test them. If they play the victim, they give into these desires and become trapped in a sinful lifestyle. If they get their strength from God then they use these circumstances to become victors! ?
Hisman,
However, MK, I think actions follow thought. We are kidding ourselves if we teach that it is OK to have thoughts about something without them eventually leading to lust or action. This is playing with fire. After all, the vast majority of the spiritual battles we fight goes on between our ears.
*
Didn’t Jesus say that we were guilty of adultery if we just lusted in our hearts for a woman? Lust is a mental activity.
*
And I don’t equate seeing a beautiful girl and admiring her as beautiful a lustful act. However, the line is crossed when I want that person and think about sex with her. If I make it a habit to look at women for the sole purpose of admiring their beauty, I think it becomes very difficult not to cross that line into lust which is adultery.
*
Having said all that, a man having a desire for a woman is natural. A man having a desire for a man is not natural and to teach that it somehow is or can be without acting on it I think really dangerous.
*
Now, do I think it wrong for a man to love another man, absolutely not. I have many male friends that I love and would die for. However, never once has that love ever resulted in a sexual attraction or desire.
No one here from the Catholic side has said anything different. If you read through the posts you’ll see that no less than three times have I said, lustful thinking is an action and constitutes a sin.
To be homosexual and forgo the lifestyle means no lusting in your head or physical relations.
But just as you being attracted in a natural sense to the opposite sex is not a sin as long as you don’t entertain lustful thoughts or turn women into objects, so too if a homosexual finds himself attracted to the same sex it is not a sin as long as it doesn’t cross the line into entertaining lustful thoughts or turn men in sexual objects.
Simply being inclined a certain way is not a sin.
Any action that promotes this inclination in a perverted way is.
You aren’t a sinner simply because you are attracted to women.
Gays aren’t sinners simply because they are attracted to the same sex.
If you look at porn, engage prostitutes, have extra marital affairs, daydream about having sex, THEN you are sinning…
But telling a person he is bad because he is attracted to the same sex is like a telling a blind person he is bad because he can’t see.
It’s not something under their control. Their ACTIONS are under their control (and lust is an action), but their nature isn’t.
mk,
Well, yes and no. We disagree on where their tendancies come from, though. You place the blame on God, and I place the blame on them. We just agree to disagree on this one.
I can’t help but to think, though, that on that Great Day of Judgement, standing before the Throne of God, how “it wasn’t my fault, it’s genetic” is going to fly with Him.
In my mind (and in the Catholic Church) there is a big difference between having temptations and acting out on them.
Two examples:
Alcoholism: I believe most of the time there is an underlying metabolic disorder which makes alcoholics more susceptible to addictive behavior over an extended period of their life.The fact that they desire to drink is not sinful. If they drink to excess, it IS sinful.
Homosexuality: I believe this is also to a great degree some type of physical/mental disorder, which causes the unnatural attraction to the same sex. Again, like alcoholism, the impulses they have are not sinful unless they act upon them.
*On a lighter note, maybe this will help get the idea across:
A story that Fr. John Corapi told on the radio when he was giving a talk on serious (mortal) sin – that which seperates us from God….
There was a little old lady who came to him all upset and said “Father, Father, I’ve committed the most horrible sin, I’ve committed adultery, I’m going to hell, I don’t know what to do! Father asked her to calm down and explain how it was that she could have possibly committed adultery, as he knew her to be a very lovely old woman. She described how she had a horrible pornographic dream, and she couldn’t get the picture out of her mind. Well Father knew she had never viewed pornography in her life, so obviously she was not guilty of a horrible sin. The fact that the vision came to her was not enough to make her guilty of sin. He went on to say that the devil was perhaps trying to “mess” with her head.
JLM,
mk,
Well, yes and no. We disagree on where their tendancies come from, though. You place the blame on God, and I place the blame on them. We just agree to disagree on this one.
The disagreement is not in who is to blame, but that I don’t see any blame to be placed.
If a homosexual lives a completely chaste lifestyle, and finds himself in front of God, exactly what is he saying is not his fault?
I don’t look at homosexuality as a “bad”. Any more than I look at John McDonnell illness as a “bad”. I look at it as a challenge.
Will John McDonnell have to apologize for being sick when he meets God. Do you “blame” God for John’s illness?
Janet,
Perfect!
John and Elizabeth,
Sorry I keep using you as examples…if it’s bothering you, just say the word.
mk:
Have you ever heard John Corapi tell the story about the little old lady and the porn (see my 11:56 post), I’m sure I didn’t tell it as well as he does…but it does get the point across very well!
Awesome posts today.
HisMan: I admit I can make mistakes so I’ll really need to think about this one.
Thanks. I’d just like your thoughts, not perfection. Take as much time as you want.
:)
Janet,
I haven’t heard it but I read it. It’s exactly what I’m trying to say!
Your posts haven’t exactly been shabby!
Will John McDonnell have to apologize for being sick when he meets God. Do you “blame” God for John’s illness?
Of course John will not have to apologize! And no, I don’t blame God for his illness.
If a homosexual lives a completely chaste lifestyle, and finds himself in front of God, exactly what is he saying is not his fault?
If a homosexual is leading a chaste lifestyle, and not even thinking about having sex with the same sex, why do they still call themselves homosexuals? wouldn’t the correct title be, and I don’t know if there’s a name for it, but someone who is not sexually attracted to either male or female?
JLM,
Well, it’s the same thing. Blaming a person because their nature is not what yours is, is like blaming John because his body is not what yours is.
So answer the question. If a homosexual lives a chaste lifestyle and dies, what exactly will he have to apologize to God for?
JLM,
Elizabeth is leading a chaste lifestyle right now. Does that mean that she is no longer heterosexual? Has she lost her heterosexuality, simply because she is not acting on it?
If a homosexual lives a completely chaste lifestyle, and finds himself in front of God, exactly what is he saying is not his fault?
I need to have mine answered first, in order to answer yours:
If a homosexual is leading a chaste lifestyle, and not even thinking about having sex with the same sex, why do they still call themselves homosexuals? wouldn’t the correct title be, and I don’t know if there’s a name for it, but someone who is not sexually attracted to either male or female?
Elizabeth is leading a chaste lifestyle right now. Does that mean that she is no longer heterosexual? Has she lost her heterosexuality, simply because she is not acting on it?
I don’t know her thoughts, only her & God do. If she finds a man attractive and thinks sexual thoughts about him, I don’t see the relevance to losing anything.
Can someone answer this question for me, please!
what I don’t understand, though…and I’m being sincere in this question: Before a gay man “comes out of the closet”, he pronounces his “S’s” just fine. He “comes out”, and lo & behold, the accent changes. That’s not genetic!!! But lesbians accents don’t change. Can anyone explain this one to me???
JLM,
You said:
If a homosexual is leading a chaste lifestyle, and not even thinking about having sex with the same sex, why do they still call themselves homosexuals? wouldn’t the correct title be, and I don’t know if there’s a name for it, but someone who is not sexually attracted to either male or female?
I’m asking you to substitute Elizabeth, who is unmarried and living a chaste life, for the homosexual.
If Elizabet is leading a chaste lifestyle, and not even thinking about having sex with the opposite sex, why does she still call herself heterosexual? Wouldn’t the correct title be, and I don’t know if there’s a name for it, but someone who is not sexually attracted to either male or female?
JLM, what I don’t understand, though…and I’m being sincere in this question: Before a gay man “comes out of the closet”, he pronounces his “S’s” just fine. He “comes out”, and lo & behold, the accent changes. That’s not genetic!!! But lesbians accents don’t change. Can anyone explain this one to me???
Good question. Do you know people like this? You can ask them.
Maybe they like the stereotype it represents. Maybe they like it when people wonder why they do it. :)
JLM,
what I don’t understand, though…and I’m being sincere in this question: Before a gay man “comes out of the closet”, he pronounces his “S’s” just fine. He “comes out”, and lo & behold, the accent changes. That’s not genetic!!! But lesbians accents don’t change. Can anyone explain this one to me???
If a guy “comes out of the closet” and embraces the lifstyle then he is going to speak and act in ways that promote the image.
I suppose that if it is true that they pronounce their “s’s” differently (not saying it is) it would be because this is a trait that identifies them as gay, and they are “advertising”…
Why do women that are looking “for a good time” show cleavage and wear short skirts?
I can only guess, but I would venture to say that they are playing up their feminine qualities to attract a partner.
I think Lesbians do this to a degree also. We all know what is meant by a “butch” haircut, or what it means to “look” like a “dyke”.
It means playing up their masculine traits.
Thanks mk & Janet! Advertising makes sense to me!
I’m asking you to substitute Elizabeth, who is unmarried and living a chaste life, for the homosexual.
If Elizabet is leading a chaste lifestyle, and not even thinking about having sex with the opposite sex, why does she still call herself heterosexual? Wouldn’t the correct title be, and I don’t know if there’s a name for it, but someone who is not sexually attracted to either male or female?
I see your point. But if a homosexual wanted to please the Lord by never sinning again by having sex with the same sex, and will never have sex with the opposite sex, why are they still referred to as a homosexual?
Elizabeth’s example doesn’t fit here to well for me, because if Elizabeth decided one day to get married and have sex, it wouldn’t be a sin. Right now Elizabeth is staying celebate, (for example purposes) in action and thought, but it may be temporary. The homosexual, in order to not sin needs to stay celebate in action and thought and it must be permanent.
So Elizabeth remains heterosexual, even in chaste, but the homosexual cannot, because they wouldn’t be a homosexual, then! Unless, of course, it’s temporary for them.
I love you guys but you make my head spin sometimes! :)
Carla,
Don’t feel bad! Me too! I think I’m addicted to Excedrin now!!!
hey folks,
it may be time to loosen it up a little: To me there is an underlying problem resulting in using scripture to back-you-up. Scripture is in place to allow you to know and love God. But it too often is used by ‘Christians’ as a god-shield. It not only shields the righteous from sin, but can shield a believer from God.
I have little-to-no-problem in BLAMING GOD … tongue-in-cheek! Because I do not know and probably never will know the answer to ‘why me?’ So instead of spending time & energy on finding ‘the’ answer … I just BLAME GOD. “Oh, John you can’t do that!” ‘Sorry, already done.’ … He laughs, I laugh and we’re in love again …. re-read the story of Job, it is a story not about reward but of a man so tight with God that God and him are inseparable … and both Job and God know it!
JLM,
I hesitate to bring up priests as I know how you feel about them, but priests take a vow of celicbacy for life. They have made a vow (similar to your descripition) that they will NEVER have sexual relations. Yet their orientation still remains the same. So lets substitute priest for Elizabeth.
If a priest is leading a chaste lifestyle, and not even thinking about having sex with the opposite sex, why does he still call himself heterosexual? Wouldn’t the correct title be, and I don’t know if there’s a name for it, but someone who is not sexually attracted to either male or female?
It would be a sin for a priest to break his vow of celibacy just as it would be a sin for a homosexual to have sex.
What you are not getting is that while, homosexual denotes a sexual orientation, it does not denote sexual behavior. It’s not about what a homosexual does that makes him a homosexual. It’s about who he is. Which is why I began this conversation with “It’s not who your are, but what you do”…
It not only shields the righteous from sin, but can shield a believer from God.
John,
I’m curious now, how do you feel that the bible can shield a believer from God?
why do they still call themselves homosexuals? wouldn’t the correct title be, and I don’t know if there’s a name for it, but someone who is not sexually attracted to either male or female?
Those kinds of people are called asexual, JLM..which is a whole different ball of wax. I knew a person who was asexual once. She simply was not attracted to anyone.
Homosexuals are still attracted to people of the same sex..but if they aren’t thinking about or acting on it..why are they not still homosexual? Because IF they had to choose who they are more attracted to, they would say the same sex. That’s what makes them homosexual. You seem to think that being a homosexual is all about the sex. Being heterosexual is not all about the sex..so why is homosexual? Because you don’t understand it?
Are people made solely up of who they have sex with?
@JLM: It’s kind of like this…
I have lots of impulses to do bad things (especially on here) like swear or say cruel, biting things when I get angry (which happens a lot). Of course, I temper what I say and more often than not, I do not lose control and I keep my temper in check. Just because I don’t express my negative thoughts or I temper them doesn’t mean that I’m not angry, because 99% of the time I am. However, in order to be a good person, I feel it’s necessary to shield the world from what I really think.
In some ways, I think this is what MK is trying to say, (sorry if I’m wrong MK), but you can still “be that way” (be it gay or have a firey temper) but you don’t have to live like that (explode in anger or have sex with others of the same gender).
Does this make sense?
John,
Too funny. But seriously you don’t blame God so much as accept what your life is, right? I mean, blaming Him would in someway say that there is a mistake made. You ARE NOT a mistake.
Rae Rae,
I couldn’t have said it better myself!
“I knew a person who was asexual once. She simply was not attracted to anyone.”
@Elizabeth: I’m kind of like that. :) Not so much now, but when I was in middle school/high school I definitely was. Still am when I get really depressed.
Hey, Sometimes I wish I were like that…the opposite sex causes me too much drama lol. The girl who I knew who was asexual was one of my acting partners. She was hi-larious and a GREAT actress. She is now in NYC doin’ big thangs.
Elizabeth,
I see your point. But isnt’ what we define as homosexual and heterosexual our attraction to the physical nature (sexual) of the sex in question? I mean, it’s not the hair color or eye color, it’s the sexual attraction, right?
Rae,
Good work! Exactly what I’m trying to say. You’re nature is to be reactive. You must master those tendencies. Not deny them. Not ignore them. But gain control of them, so that they don’t control you!
Elizabeth,
“Hey, Sometimes I wish I were like that”
Me too, except for other reasons.
JLM,
Are you asking if physical and sexual attraction are the same thing?
JLM,
Homosexuality is more than sexual preference. That’s just the aspect of it that gets all the attention.
Have you not noticed how many gay men end up in the theater? Or the arts? They are just different. Now woman. Not men as we know them. Unique.
And that is not to say that every gay man is artistic. It’s just that they see the world differently. And it is often expressed through the arts.
Or hair dressing. lol.
The reason we all got that little joke is because there is truth to it. We recognize gay men even when they aren’t having sex. Sometimes we’re wrong. There are men with effeminate tendencies that aren’t gay, but for the most part, their gayness shows whether sex is involved or not.
I don’t want to make too many generalizations here.
I really wish someone that was gay would get on here and explain it better than I am.
“Good work! Exactly what I’m trying to say. You’re nature is to be reactive. You must master those tendencies. Not deny them. Not ignore them. But gain control of them, so that they don’t control you!”
@MK: Sweeeeeeeeet. That’s very “kung-fu”, totally reminds me of the show (go David Carradine!)
@Elizabeth: In some ways it kind of sucks being asexual-ish, because I can’t try explaining that to my mom because she wouldn’t understand it (as she’s always nagging me why I don’t have a boyfriend and what not).
It also doesn’t help with the loneliness I always feel. :-/
But in someways it’s probably for the best because on the rare occassion I do develop crushes or I’m attracted to a guy, the guy is almost always a massive douche…I don’t know why, I think I’m a glutton for punishment or something.
@Bobby: Why do you wish you were asexual? It kind of sucks…people treat you weird.
Rae,
You totally made sense to me! Thank you!
That’s exactly what Bethany was talking about before, that God looks at the heart, and the thoughts, too, to see if one is cold-hearted or loving.
I know you may not like this, but I HAVE to quote a verse here!
Genesis 6:5-6
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
See, God looks at the thoughts and the heart of man. When it’s evil, it saddens Him greatly.
Proverbs 15:26 The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the LORD: but the words of the pure are pleasant words.
and these are very strong words:
Matthew 15:18-20
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
Only God can change someone’s heart. That’s why I have a problem with homosexuals staying sex-free. Homosexuality remains in their heart until God changes their hearts. I know mk, Janet, John, etc., will disagree, here, that homosexuals CAN be converted. But I know that God can change hearts and minds. Before I was saved, I did evil things, too. God works from the heart, so this is why I don’t believe that the homosexual can change on his/her own. They need God!
Rae,
Thank you grasshopper.
We talk about abstinence so much that the word chastity is ignored and misunderstood.
This is quick, off the top of my head because I have to leave real soon….
You can live a chaste life as a single, married person, priest, nun, homosexual relationship, etc…
A married couple goes through periods of chastity when one of them is ill, or when they want to postpone pregnancy. People’s jobs take them away from each other for extended periods of time. Having a mate doesn’t automatically guarantee “sex anytime” as our culture would lead us to believe…..
::headdesk::
That’s not what I was getting at…at all.
Rae, 2:09 p.m.
Don’t hurt your head!!!
Good golly miss molly, how did we hit almost 500 posts!
JLM,
That’s just the point. Why should they HAVE to change who they are. You are making a judgment that simply being who they are is bad, and that is where I am taking exception. Why is it better to be heterosexual? If God made them this way, and I thank him for doing it because I think gay men are a riot…they have the MOST wicked senses of humor! then why should they desire to be something other than what God intended them to be?
JLM:2:07:
See my 2:08 post first….So it’s not so much that a homosexual is “converted”, it’s that they control their impulses like the rest of us have to.
Just another reason that Catholic confession makes a lot of sense…
John;1:07:
Thank God you’re here!
:)
MK,
AMEN AMEN AMEN!!!
woo woo!
I think it all comes back to those of us who think homosexuals are born that way and those of us who believe it to be a choice. The ones who believe it is a choice see the reason for the conversion from homosexual to heterosexual. The ones who believe they are born that way see no problem with them being who they are, as long as they aren’t engaging in homosexual sex.
Janet,
That’s an excellent point. Actually, to put a further spin on it, it really means purity. So it is possible to be unchaste even within the confines of the marital bed.
If I’m using porn, or treating my spouse as simply an object, I am also being unchaste. Kinky will only go so far. The object of sex with your spouse is not to “get off”…it’s to unite with them in a physical way as well as a spiritual way. So if either partner is treating sex as an action apart from the unitive quality, they too are being unchaste, or “impure”…
Are you asking if physical and sexual attraction are the same thing?
Well, when the word “attraction” is used, what exactly is that attraction to? I can compliment someone’s appearance, but it doesn’t mean I’m attracted to them. Science talks about this “chemistry” that we are attracted to. I mean, I don’t think anyone is attracted to hair, or to an eye, or someone’s buttucks…it’s something about their physical appearance that makes one attracted to them, right?
Elizabeth,
*bows*
Rae,
Put the ice pick down and step away from the table…
That’s just the point. Why should they HAVE to change who they are. You are making a judgment that simply being who they are is bad, and that is where I am taking exception. Why is it better to be heterosexual? If God made them this way, and I thank him for doing it because I think gay men are a riot…they have the MOST wicked senses of humor! then why should they desire to be something other than what God intended them to be?
Because that’s where our beliefs differ. I believe that God’s plan was man and woman, and children as blessings to the man and woman. I think that homosexuality is a perversion of God’s plan, that is not created by Him, but a seed that Satan plants in their heads to try to make them believe that God’s plan stinks.
We are all born sinners, but God’s plan is for us to come to Him through Jesus Christ, admit we are sinners, and be made righteous through Him.
“Please quote chapter and verse!”
1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”
Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm …”
Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable …”
Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”
Isaiah 45:18: “…who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast…”
If the universe is heliocentric then the earth is moving. These verses, read literally, said otherwise. However, now that we have good evidence, we now see these verses with a different light.
That’s all science can really do. Noone is assuming that the Bible is incorrect, rather, science operates on evidence alone, and literature is not evidence.
I think it all comes back to those of us who think homosexuals are born that way and those of us who believe it to be a choice. The ones who believe it is a choice see the reason for the conversion from homosexual to heterosexual. The ones who believe they are born that way see no problem with them being who they are, as long as they aren’t engaging in homosexual sex.
Elizabeth,
You’re absolutely correct!
JLM,
There are pheromones that people give off that make us more attracted to a certain person than others.
Also, are you attracted to a certain hair color on the opposite sex? Do you prefer blonde over brown hair? Because that’s a physical trait that one is attracted to. That doesn’t mean that every person you see with brown hair you will be sexually attracted to, it just means that is what looks better to your eye. Homosexuals aren’t automatically attracted to everyone of the same sex. They have physical traits that they think are more attractive to their eye, yes. So I guess what I’m saying here is…you can find someone physically attracting, but not sexually at the same time. You may after talking to that person you find physically attractive, be not attracted to them at all, cause maybe they’re an idiot or something. You see what I’m saying? Being sexually attracted to someone is a combination of factors.
Satan plants in their heads to try to make them believe that God’s plan stinks.
What if they struggle and come to the realization that they’re being gay is God’s plan. And maybe they don’t think that stinks. Maybe that gives them peace, that this is how it was supposed to be for them, because being gay will teach them lessons they wouldn’t have learned otherwise. **Note: I am not speaking about gay people as in they are pursuing a lifestyle that includes gay sex, I am speaking about gay people who remain chaste.
PIP,
Wow! I don’t know what version you used, but here’s the KJV…and the entire verse. A bit different, I believe:
1 Chronicles 16:30
Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.
Psalm 93
1 The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.
Psalm 96:10
Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.
Psalm 104:5
Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
Isaiah 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
btw the protestants weren’t exactly defending Galileo, either. They were pretty much condemning him too.
JLM,
Many of those verses still say the earth is unmovable, so that doesn’t change.
PIP,
Unmovable PHYSICALLY, or unmovable by God’s reign?
Well, if it’s science JLM, you can bet they’re talking physically, because science can’t measure God.
What if they struggle and come to the realization that they’re being gay is God’s plan. And maybe they don’t think that stinks. Maybe that gives them peace, that this is how it was supposed to be for them, because being gay will teach them lessons they wouldn’t have learned otherwise. **Note: I am not speaking about gay people as in they are pursuing a lifestyle that includes gay sex, I am speaking about gay people who remain chaste.
Well, you guys are saying that God created homosexuals that way, and it’s ok to be a homosexual. Why on earth, if a homosexual believes that God created them that way, and that was God’s plan for them, would they want to remain chaste? Wouldn’t this imply then, to them and you, that homosexuality is wrong? Because if it were ok, then they could just have at it and God is ok with that, right?
Well, if it’s science JLM, you can bet they’re talking physically, because science can’t measure God.
No, I meant the bible verses that PIP quoted. Does she think that this is Physical stability, or the stability of God’s reign that those verses refer to….
Why on earth, if a homosexual believes that God created them that way, and that was God’s plan for them, would they want to remain chaste?
Why, on earth, would a child with leukemia go through chemotherapy and radiation to get rid of his/her chemotherapy? God made him/her that way. God made you with all your imperfections, so why should you try to rise above your imperfections? Why not just embrace them and do what you want? Since God made you that way.
The ACT of homosexual sex is the sin.
I feel as though we are doing nothing but going in circles here. I’m not going to change your mind and you definitely aren’t going to change mine.
@Elizabeth: Here we go ’round the mulberry bush…ring around the rosie, pockets full of posie, ashes, ashes we all fall down!
Rae,
Pop goes the weasel!
I feel as though we are doing nothing but going in circles here. I’m not going to change your mind and you definitely aren’t going to change mine.
I agree! You, and many others, believe that God created them like this, and it came from God.
I believe that it was a choice that they made via a seed that Satan planted in their thoughts.
We won’t agree, of course! Where homosexuality stems from is polar opposites in our beliefs.
You stated this before, and I also agreed:
I think it all comes back to those of us who think homosexuals are born that way and those of us who believe it to be a choice. The ones who believe it is a choice see the reason for the conversion from homosexual to heterosexual. The ones who believe they are born that way see no problem with them being who they are, as long as they aren’t engaging in homosexual sex.
So, we agree to disagree?
MK:
I want to say this.
It is extremely interesting to ponder our theological points of view and discuss them at length. I love this stuff. I learn a lot and it reveals to me how some of my thinking is off. It’s iron sharpening iron. Sometime sparks fly but the results are a sharper understanding of our infinite and wonderful God. Even the Apostles had disagremeents among themselves.
However, let’s not forget that we are doing this before unbelievers.
Therefore, I want to reiterate how much I love my brothers and sisters in Christ that I disagree with on some issues.
JLM and I obvioulsy agree on a lot of things since we see the Bible as the source. The Catholics on this site notably MK, John, Bobby, PIP and many I fail to mention are obviously studied, extremely intelligent and people I am proud of simply because they are seeking God with all their hearts, see the Bible and, in additon, church teaching and tradition as their guides. I understand that.
And John McDonnell, who doesn’t just talk about this stuff, but is living in struggle, is the most valiant person on this site and his posts are very inspiring. I honor you John.
And John is right, God is not finished with any of us yet.
So let me say this. If I have offended anyone I am sorry.
We post on this site so that we might save some. How many we save won’t know till we reach the other side.
By our fruits will we be known whether we be Catholics, or Protestants, etc. Let that fruit demonstrate that we can love one another even in disagreement. I know this for sure, that abortion is wrong and all attempts to justify it’s performance are wrong and must be opposed. I think on this we agree.
There has been no change in my nephew-in-law’s condition. He is still in a coma. When they try to bring him out, his temperature spikes and his breathing becomes very erratic. They think he had an adverse reaction to Oxycontin, a pain medication he had just taken that day.
In an indirect way I am beginning to see how the relatives of Terri Schiavo may have felt early on in her case.
I find myself waking up in the morning and immediately thinking about Sean and hoping that he woke up in the night. Then I worry about my niece Gina and how she’s suffering. Then I find myself asking God to heal him NOW and then being tempted to think that God doesn’t know what He’s doing. It can be trying. This is certainly a learning experience and I will keep you posted.
HisMan,
Thank you for your kind words!
You and your family are still in my prayers. Keep strong in your faith and know that God is a good God! Thank you so much for keeping us posted on Sean’s condition. If there is anything that I can do to help, please let me know!
You are such a loving man! May God continue to bless you with His truth!
HisMan,
Those were very heartfelt words and I thank you for them! Even though we may disagree, you are right that we are all still learning and have the ability to learn from each other.
JLM,
Agreeing to disagree is at times, especially with this topic the only way of ensuring we don’t have another 4,000 post thread! eek that’s a lot of posts! I have no problem doing so, because we are different people so of course we see things differently! I enjoy discussion and debate, though, especially when it is the nature of learning and growth. And I think this site allows for that.
@JLM,
It not only shields the righteous from sin, but can shield a believer from God.
John,
I’m curious now, how do you feel that the bible can shield a believer from God?
Posted by: JLM at April 8, 2008 1:30 PM
———
The nearest I can come is making the Bible an instrument in being ‘biblically politically correct’ rather than taking a chance and stepping-on-the-Master’s-toes. Like political correctness, the scriptures have no humor. But if seen, some passages are hil-arious!
True story: a good friend upon hearing the gospel was almost doubled-over in laughter. Since both he and I hear the same thing and my reaction was stoic, like usual. I asked him: “Paul, what gives?” He said that gospel passage could not have been funnier. “Picture it! Jesus is asleep in the boat. A sudden storm has the apostles going snaky. They wake Jesus as their last good-bye-gesture. Jesus gets up, rebukes the storm … and all is calm again.
Without a word Jesus just goes back to sleeping.
…. There must have been a lot of apostles’ jaws-hit-the-floor!” ‘Ah,’ thought I, ‘you are so-o-o right!’ An insight from a man who loves God.
“Does she think that this is Physical stability, or the stability of God’s reign that those verses refer to….”
Hey, it’s not my interpretation we are discussing. It is the Christians of Galileo’s time that interpreted it literally, i.e. physical motion.
Now that we know better, it is easier to see how the scriptures should be interpreted, contextually.
John,
that’s a great story! And your right, it is quite funny reading it from our point of view! And I could just imagine the looks on the Apostles faces afterwards. You’re right!!! Their jaws probably did drop, or they busted out laughing at themselves too!!! Oh, how we have to remember that Jesus is SO powerful and will protect us when we put our faith in Him. And even when we’re not aware, and get scared, He’s still there for us!!!
Thank you for sharing that story…it put a smile on my face!!!!
Now that we know better, it is easier to see how the scriptures should be interpreted, contextually.
ok..I can’t help this one….
And someday, the rest will know that the evolution theory is incorrect as well!!!
(sorry…..I had to….Love you PIP!!!!!)
:)
Elizabeth,
Hey, I really enjoyed discussing this with all of you as well. I did learn things from your posts that I didn’t know, so I am grateful that you shared, and I’m grateful that Jill allows us to do so. I’m also glad that nobody goes away with bad feelings about anyone. That is so important!!!! We’re awesome, aren’t we!!!!
And, another good thing that came out of this, is that no pro-abort can ever say that all pro-lifers think with one mind ever, ever again!!!!
:)
Yay! I’m glad it’s gotten to an “agree to disagree” point. I don’t think I could handle another excruciatingly long weekend thread!
@Bethany: If somebody of your same gender mistreats you as you grow up, why on earth would you become attracted to somebody of that same gender that hurt you?
Because you are desperate for the love you never received from that gender.
”
Yay! I’m glad it’s gotten to an “agree to disagree” point. I don’t think I could handle another excruciatingly long weekend thread! ”
I know! Why didn’t we think of that, Bethany? :)
PIP:
I just received the “Finding Darwin’s God”.
It will take me a while to read, however, I promise to comment on to yo.
And Janet, I haven’t forgotten you.
Thanks Elizabeth, can I call you Lizard? We have a lot of those little creatures out here in Arizona and I don’t know why but I am facinated by them. If you observe them for long periods of time you realize that they are really very intelligent creatures. Besides, I just like that name. If not, that’s OK.
Well that wrapped up nicely!
Now what do we do?
Hey JLM, Hisman and Bethany,
Hismans post about Catholic Art reminded me of this…I have a confession to make.
Back when I was 20 and Abe Lincoln was president, I belonged to the Church of the Nazarene. I was totally smitten with those Precious Moments kids,(which are drawn by a protestant) and I bought a bible illustrated with them.
I still have it…
And it’s the bible I use to this day.
And,
It’s a P-r-o-t-e-s-t-a-n-t Bible.
(The few times we’ve had to look up Maccabbees I’ve had to use my husbands bible…lol.
@MK: I had Precious Moment stuff every where growing up, my mom designed my baby room to be an amalgam of Precious Moments and “Teddy Beddy”.
HisMan,
Thanks! Hope to hear about it soon.
Marykay I LOVE Precious Moments!!! When I was a kid, I was always trying to draw Precious Moments characters. Thank you for letting us know about that Bible. Who couldn’t love those sweet little illustrations of children? :)
This one used to be my favorite:
I used to have a prayer book of Catholic prayers that was illustrated with Precious Moments.
Did anybody else collect Cherished Teddies? My mom loved those things.
I don’t know Cherished Teddies, but my room was wall to wall Betsy Clark. Can’t find an image of my fav precious moments, but it was three crosses on a hill and the words “For Me”…
I forgot all about Betsey Clark! I loved it too. I loved anything Hallmark! I was a stationery nut! Cute!!
HisMan,
You can call me Lizard if you like. A lot of people used to call me “Little Lizard” when I was younger..so it’s cool with me!
MK:
Let’s talk about heaven and what we think it will be like?
Hisman,
What, are you glutton for punishment?????
Okay, with me. But I can feel another 4000er comin’ on! lol
Rae, I didn’t know what cherished teddies were, but looked them up. I have seen a lot of people who have those in collections. They are cute!!
Oh my gosh! This is not about “heaven” per say, but I’ve been listening to “Morning Air” on Relevant Radio and just heard about a web site that is a must see!
Here is a link:
http://www.catholicscomehome.org/index.phtml
They have produced three beautiful television commercials which are available for viewing on the site. If you want to learn more about the Church or just view some great commercials, I highly recommend it!
HisMan Re-post of earlier question:
HisMan:1:44:
I don’t want to get into a heated debatelike the longest thread, but I want to address something from your last post.>
I think your Catholic faith is beautiful, however, God’s Word must come first always and anything that contradicts it must be rejected
Maybe you can help me understand this idea of contradiction in light of a related term “paradox”, where:
A paradox can be an apparently true statement or group of statements that leads to a contradiction or a situation which defies intuition; or it can be, seemingly opposite, an apparent contradiction that actually expresses a non-dual truth (cf. Koan). Typically, either the statements in question do not really imply the contradiction, the puzzling result is not really a contradiction, or the premises themselves are not all really true or cannot all be true together. The word paradox is often used interchangeably with contradiction. Often, mistakenly, it is used to describe situations that are ironic. (wikipedia)
In trying to interpret the Bible, how does the average reader know what is paradox, what is contradiction, or something else all together without using the oral teaching of the Church? Biblical/Catholics scholars have been studying this since Jesus’ time. With this in mind, how does one interpret the following statement “the Bible can’t contradict itself” to discern all truth from God’s written word alone? Not easy questions, I know, but I would appreciate any enlightenment you can give me on the subject. Thanks. God bless you.
Posted by: Janet at April 8, 2008 5:40 AM
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