New WND column, “Pastors revolt against the IRS”

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On Sunday, Sept. 28, the Alliance Defense Fund is
planning a nationwide pastors’ revolt to challenge an IRS tax code that has muzzled churches and pastors from expressing opinions on political candidates for over 50 years.
Challenged will be a 1954 change in the code called the Johnson Amendment, after then-Sen. Lyndon Johnson.
Johnson proposed the amendment to silence opponents to his second Senate race. Two nonprofit foundations were pouring money into a publicity campaign calling Johnson soft on communism.
There is no legislative history for the Johnson Amendment. According to the scant Senate record, then-Democrat Minority Leader Johnson stood up on the floor and proposed it as an attachment to an existing bill. After Johnson said the bill sponsor was in agreement, the presiding officer simply called for a voice vote. There was no debate….
ADF will challenge one specific part of the code….
On Sept. 28, approximately 50 pastors the ADF has chosen from volunteers nationwide will preach sermons to provoke the IRS on this point. This would immediately invoke a lawsuit that would find its way to the U.S. Supreme Court….

Continue reading my column today, “Revolt of the pastors,” on WorldNetDaily.com.

97 thoughts on “New WND column, “Pastors revolt against the IRS””

  1. Of course, just replace the income tax with the FairTax (www.fairtax.org) and the Johnson Amendment is no longer relevant. Then not only will churches be free from the harassment of the IRS but so will all Americans.

  2. I once had a college professor call Lyndon Johnson “the devil incarnate,” and in many ways he wasn’t far off.
    Johnson should never have been in the U.S. Senate, and he never should have been vice-president and then president, but of course through voter fraud such as dead people voting, he stole the election during the race for the U.S. Senate in Texas in 1948, thus “winning” that election by 87 votes.
    Johnson was a bully, and he should have been stopped from slipping that piece of legislation through in 1954 that has muzzled conservative churches ever since then from speaking out on issues of national significance.
    Barry Lynn, of course being on the left, has no problem with pastors such as Jeremiah Wright spewing their hatred of the United States from their pulpits.
    It is only conservative pastors that he wants silenced in speaking out about the national issues. If the truth about Barry Lynn ever comes out in this world it will probably be revealed that his being a “reverend” was just a front, and that he could very well be an agnostic or an atheist who was simply posing as a “reverend” to further the agenda of the Left.

  3. Isaiah 40:8 “The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever.”
    Isaiah 55:11 “so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.”
    2 Corinthians 10:3-5 “For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.”
    2 Chronicles 7:14 “if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.”
    Jill,
    I am absolutely convinced that the key to ending legalized abortion is to proclaim God’s Word against it. Ending this satanic legislation is one of the keys to ending legalized abortion, putting God back in schools, and winning the battle against gay marriage. We must fight this to win and we win by speaking God’s Word against these evils forcefully, praying and living redeemed lives. Our Founders knew the power of free speech becasue they knew the inherent power of God’s Word to change people’s hearts.
    Remember, our battle is not against flesh and blood, the pro-aborts, but against “arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God”.
    The Word of God must be proclaimed by the church, the called out, against the gates of hell and that fearlessly, without compromise and boldly.
    Matthew 11:12 “From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force.”
    Matthew 10:34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”
    Luke 11:1-4 “It happened that while Jesus was praying in a certain place, after He had finished, one of His disciples said to Him, “Lord, teach us to pray just as John also taught his disciples.”
    And He said to them, “When you pray, say:
    ‘Father, hallowed be Your name.
    Your kingdom come.
    3’Give us each day our daily bread.
    4’And forgive us our sins,
    For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
    And lead us not into temptation.'”
    How ia God’s will done here on earth? By proclaiming His word.
    “Here I am, send me”

  4. I still believe that all the American laity need relief from the IRS. (punitive tax system)
    I would prefer abolishing the IRS and instead endorsing the Fair Tax system… for a time.
    God Bless. (Wow, can I still say that without fear of an IRS audit?)
    PS. I still think you should be a vice presidential candidate.

  5. JohnS:
    You’re exactly right. God is not a Republican.
    However, you are absolutely wrong to think that Liberal policies are in any way based on Biblical principles.
    Let me give you some examples:
    1. God is all about preserving life, i.e., it is insane to think that God condones the termination of the expression of his will via an abortion. Abortion is murder.
    2. God created the institution of marriage as being between one man and one woman, period.
    3. It is clear that the Bible teaches that the practice of homosexuality is an abomination in the sight of God.
    4. The Bible teaches that while we are to care for the poor, widows and orphans we are not to enable perfectly healthy men and women who can work by giving them money so they will vote for a particular candidate. This cheats all of us and serves to get unprincipled peple in office.
    5. The Bible teaches that taking money from the rich and giving it to the poor apart from their permission is theft. Money is to be given cheerfully and without hesitation and not at threat or by coercion.
    6. The Bible teaches that it is sin to protect those who are being attacked by evil. Hence, we have the doctrine of a justifiable war.
    These are just a few: Now, tell me which political party more closely resembles those basic principles?
    Which political party do most secualr humanists, atheists, agnostics, and down-right anti-Christians belong? Which political party took God and prayer out of schools, legalized abortion, promotes the welfare state, promotes the legalization of gay marriage, fights abstinence programs, promotes pre-marital sex, etc.?
    I would say that God is not a Republican but more Republican follow Biblical principles than do Liberals.
    When Democrats follow godly principles of government I will vote Democratic. And why is that John?
    “Because blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord”.
    He is not our Lord if we do not do what He says.

  6. Hehe, yup, I’m pretty sure if Jesus came back today he’d be seen as a liberal.
    He’d probably get drunk with a bunch of homosexuals at a gay bar (remember he was accused of being a drunkard and associating with those bad bad people).
    He’d probably speak out against the war (“Blessed are the peacemakers”) and get arrested and beaten by a conservative cop during an anti-war rally.
    He’d probably throw a fit over the fact that we didn’t help those people after Hurricane Katrina, and that we don’t do much to help the poor or hungry.
    Conservatives love capitalism, which has a funny way of eliminating the little guy by crushingly large businesses. It’s actually the liberals who are all for helping other people get up to the same level. (Sure, not all programs are effective, but come on, it wasn’t the liberals that cut funding to education, anti-violence programs, and other community aid programs)
    He’d probably hate everyone who thought destroying the earth for our own gains was a good idea. And those people who hold themselves in higher regard than animals. Stewards? Ha!(Ecclesiastes 3:19

  7. He’d probably get drunk with a bunch of homosexuals at a gay bar (remember he was accused of being a drunkard and associating with those bad bad people).
    The operative word being “accused”, Edyt. Nice way to try to spin things.
    If Jesus was really so liberal as you say, why do you hate Him so?

  8. @Bethany: I don’t think Edyt hates Jesus- do you have a post where she specifically says, “I hate Jesus- I think he’s a massive douchebag”?

  9. Rae, it just seems pretty clear (at least to me) from the way she has spoken in the last year that Christianity is the only religion she truly despises. I have seen her talk very kindly towards Islam, towards Hinduism and other types of religions, but when it comes to Christianity, she goes over the top trying to do anything she can to try to express how much she hates it. And I find it really, really difficult to think she can hate Christianity without hating Christ himself. That’s just me.

  10. Jesus was never accused of being a drunkard. (Show me which Gospel has Jesus being accused of being a Drunkard). It is true that the pharisees were upset that he was eating with “sinners”, which tax collectors were part of (Matthew the Gospel writer was once a Tax Collector.)

  11. @Bethany: I don’t think it’s Christianity itself she dislikes but the followers. A lot of the followers of Christianity don’t exactly do the best “PR” for themselves…of course I could also totally say that about Islam as well.
    I think on one hand Edyt’s hostility towards Christianity could be due to her upbringing and her disillusionment that came with her being raised Christian and her noting of people who claimed to be Christian but did not act in a Christian manner. The same could be said for me as well…but i tend to keep my mouth shut on the issue unless somebody says something that *really* pisses me off.

  12. Liz, read the Bible.
    Luke 7:33-34:
    For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
    That’s actually a pretty good example of plagiarism in the Bible, since Matthew quotes nearly the exact same lines in 11:19:
    For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
    Don’t forget Jesus’ first recorded miracle was turning water into wine, and at his last meal he drank wine with his disciples.
    Luke and Matthew were actually plagiarized from the book of Mark (or whoever wrote that). And they did a pretty poor job of it, since they copied the same wrong geographical errors and contradicted each other on simple things, like Jesus’ genealogy (not unusual, since Mark didn’t write the genealogy). Pitiful job, really. Of course, they also plagiarized from ancient Greek texts too.
    But you were talking about drinking, not Biblical errors or plagiarism. Carry on.

  13. Well, Bethany, then I must hate Santa Claus and leprechauns and fairies too, since I don’t believe in those either.
    Bring on a Muslim or a Hindu, and I’ll enjoy challenging his or her faith. Christians are just very prevalent here, you know?
    And so… so few of you… actually know what’s written in your holy book. Which is really sad, since that’s supposedly what you live by.

  14. Doug @ 4:01 PM
    Jesus sounds like he was a heck of a Liberal, from what was written in the Bible.
    Care to illuminate exactly what you are talking about?
    Have you read the Gospels?
    Edyt thinks drinking wine makes Jesus a liberal.
    What does raising the dead (like Lazarus) or the little girl make him?

  15. Edyt said: And so… so few of you… actually know what’s written in your holy book. Which is really sad, since that’s supposedly what you live by.
    Do you include yourself in that assessment – about not knowing what’s in the Bible?
    I’ll agree with you – there is quite a difference between head knowledge and experiential “heart” knowledge – the latter being far more important.
    However, we’re not trying to make ourselves righteous by living according to the Scriptures.
    We can’t possibly do that. Grace and mercy are from God alone.
    Salvation is a gift from God.
    So when I say I would rather know Christ fully (and God’s Word reveals him) it’s only because one day, when he comes, His perfect Law will be written on our hearts.
    And in that day Edyt, we could love even the most vile of sinners, because of who they are and not what they’ve done, and that would include ourselves – we have to forgive ourselves, because for those whose faith is in Christ are already forgiven.
    I can’t live by words written in a book – I only can live by Christ in my heart.

  16. And so… so few of you… actually know what’s written in your holy book. Which is really sad, since that’s supposedly what you live by.
    Posted by: Edyt at May 28, 2008 10:51 PM
    This statement is completely unfair, and does not warrant further response.

  17. No one has ANY business telling a pastor what he can say from the pulpit. Pastors have no business getting a 501c3. They already have an exclusion in 508c1a that recognizes that the church is exempt from taxation. This is what you get when you take the advice of an attorney over Christ.

  18. @Bethany: I don’t think it’s Christianity itself she dislikes but the followers. A lot of the followers of Christianity don’t exactly do the best “PR” for themselves…of course I could also totally say that about Islam as well.
    I think on one hand Edyt’s hostility towards Christianity could be due to her upbringing and her disillusionment that came with her being raised Christian and her noting of people who claimed to be Christian but did not act in a Christian manner.

    I agree.
    I think that it is very unfair to paint us all in the same manner that she witnessed in her parents though. I think her parents did her a disservice by being bad examples of Christ (if they really did, I’m just assuming). Obviously Edyt has some anger issues towards her parents that need to be dealt with, instead of using her parents as a way to lash out at others who have done nothing to her.
    You may not realize how terribly offensive Edyt’s post about “liberal Jesus” was to a Christian. She was insulting our Lord and Saviour. That is a huge thing to us, and I really thought it was in very poor taste. I doubt seriously that she would EVER insult a muslim in the same way, mocking Mohammed and lying about him.

  19. “You may not realize how terribly offensive Edyt’s post about “liberal Jesus” was to a Christian. She was insulting our Lord and Saviour.”
    I must say, Bethany, that I too found it quite offensive. I’m not saying I believe Jesus would be for the war or would shun homosexuals. It seemed that the post had more of a mocking tone than anything. I could be wrong.

  20. I didn’t have time to touch on Edyt’s post very long yesterday, so here goes:
    Hehe, yup, I’m pretty sure if Jesus came back today he’d be seen as a liberal.
    He’d probably get drunk with a bunch of homosexuals at a gay bar (remember he was accused of being a drunkard and associating with those bad bad people).

    First of all, this is incredibly offensive, and you know that.
    Jesus would not have gotten drunk. Jesus did indeed drink wine but he never drank to excess.
    He did spend time with those who were sinners, to preach to them about repentance, Edyt, not to participate in their sinful deeds. He spoke to those sinners who recognized that they were sinners, as opposed to the Pharisees who were also sinners, but believed they had no need of a Savior and believed they were righteous. Jesus said that He “came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance”.
    He’d probably speak out against the war (“Blessed are the peacemakers”)
    Blessed are the peacemakers refers to the way we treat individuals in our daily life and does not refer to war, Edyt. Jesus also said “”Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”
    Take that as you will, but reading the verses all in their context might help you understand better what Christ was saying in each of these situations. Ripping verses out of their intended context and putting a deliberate spin on them is dishonest.
    and get arrested and beaten by a conservative cop during an anti-war rally.
    Read the above…
    He’d probably throw a fit over the fact that we didn’t help those people after Hurricane Katrina, and that we don’t do much to help the poor or hungry.
    Who is “we”, Edyt? I personally know several people who donated goods to Katrina victims, and I know of some in my area who let them live within their homes.
    He’d probably hate everyone who thought destroying the earth for our own gains was a good idea. And those people who hold themselves in higher regard than animals. Stewards? Ha!(Ecclesiastes 3:19

  21. I must say, Bethany, that I too found it quite offensive. I’m not saying I believe Jesus would be for the war or would shun homosexuals. It seemed that the post had more of a mocking tone than anything. I could be wrong.
    Yes, exactly Bobby. It was the mocking manner which was most insulting. Edyt knew exactly what she was doing too. She came from a Christian family and she knows exactly what to say to offend.

  22. “You may not realize how terribly offensive Edyt’s post about “liberal Jesus” was to a Christian. She was insulting our Lord and Saviour. That is a huge thing to us, and I really thought it was in very poor taste. I doubt seriously that she would EVER insult a muslim in the same way, mocking Mohammed and lying about him. ”
    I don’t see how it was offensive- I can see how it was possibly misrepresentative and slightly mocking- but yeah. :-/
    I do see your point about Islam/Muhammad- but again, I think her apparent dislike for Christianity due to bad personal experiences with it lead her to behave the way she does. I would imagine she’d be just as critical of Islam if she had more personal experience with it.

  23. I don’t see how it was offensive- I can see how it was possibly misrepresentative and slightly mocking- but yeah. :-/
    Rae, if you can’t see how it is offensive, it’s okay…you don’t have to. It just means you don’t understand what Christ means to us.

  24. And you’re absolutely right- I don’t.
    But I do have one more thing to say about the whole, “Is Jesus a liberal or a conservative?”
    My answer is this: Does it really freaking matter? I think it’s mildly assinine to try to categorize a religion’s figurehead into modern day political ideologies.

  25. Bethany @ 8:34 AM
    Bethany – my mother used to say (and still does) that all the world’s mockery of our Lord and Savior is simple proof of who He is, and what God says is true. I believe she’s right.
    Mockery says much more about the mocker, than the one being mocked. Why be insulted?
    One could easily point to passages where Satan took Scripture out of context and threw it into our Lord’s face. Jesus rebuked him with Scripture. Edyt doesn’t know Scripture and such conjecture is simply childish.
    If anything, Edyt needs much love. She’ll say she doesn’t but it has become completely apparent she does.
    There are those who are blind, groping in the darkness because they’ve never been exposed to the Light, and there are those who having gazed upon Him, failed to avert their eyes in humble reverence, and have been blinded by the Light. I think Chesterton said that – or something like it.
    Let’s not be so offended that we miss hearing the cry of one in pain.

  26. It matters because of what she’s insinuating that he would have supported. Not really as much about the title of “liberal”… She could have used the word “conservative” instead of liberal, and her post would have still been just as offensive because of all the things she was implying.

  27. You’re right, Chris. Absolutely right. Sometimes it’s hard for me to remember, and I let my emotions rather than logic respond.

  28. “It matters because of what she’s insinuating that he would have supported. Not really as much about the title of “liberal”… She could have used the word “conservative” instead of liberal, and her post would have still been just as offensive because of all the things she was implying.”
    And I can think of examples in which conservatives have done the *exact* same thing.
    Now, who said, “Jesus was the first Republican”?

  29. Rae, I think you might misunderstand my point. Again, it’s not the title that bothers me so much as the actions that were implied in the post. Jesus would have never done any of those things that were suggested, and that is what I am trying to say.

  30. I’m glad the pastors are challenging the IRS on this issue…
    I just wish that more pastors would be willing to just do without the tax exemption and preach what they know is right regardless.

  31. You didn’t offend me…I’m just in a really *shite* mood and I was just getting frustrated, so I felt it would be better to just walk away as opposed to saying something I more than likely would regret.

  32. Bethany, it’s you who make a mockery of your god by making him out to support conservative values. For his entire life he challenged tradition and institution. He was broad minded and generous and tolerant. He would be disgusted with conservatives today for their outright racism and sexism (much of which I’ve seen exhibited on this blog), he’d be upset by our unwelcome immigration policies, desire to keep health insurance out of the hands of the sick, the outright hate crimes against minorities and GLBT persons, and conservatives who only sympathize with other white, privileged persons, rather than treat everyone as equal. Liberals are the people who care to create social change to help all people.

  33. Edyt: Bethany would not mock Jesus. Are you trying to start a war?
    Read Bobby’s link above for an interesting perspective on conservative/liberal (progressive) labels.

  34. Bobby @ 9:32 AM Bingo! Good article. Thanks!
    Lately I’ve been seeing Chesterton popping up in a number of different places, and not always where I expected to find him.

  35. I actually really enjoy Ray Dubuque’s website: Liberals Like Christ. Back when I actually didn’t doubt my religion, it helped me realize that Jesus would in no way want what most Christians exhibited.
    Every once in awhile I check back to see if he’s written anything new. :)

  36. Edyt, I guess you believe what you believe. Look at the Scientologists. They are basing their beliefs on something that a Sci-Fi writer wrote. How do you feel about them?

  37. I have a semi-related question:
    When I was growing up, the generic term for “Christian religious leader” was “minister.” When did that change over to “pastor”?

  38. All: FYI, I’m having trouble with my software. I can’t even post any new posts. They won’t go live. No one is sorrier than me about this. :(

  39. Bobby and Bethany,
    When I taught preschool, parents would come in to class on the first day and tell us that Billy or Mary (well, actually their names were more like Ashwayria and Dhruv) could say all of their ABC’s.
    We’d smile. And then roll our eyes. Many 3 and 4 year olds can recite their abcs but very few have a clue what those letters actually stand for.
    Memorizing a thing is not the same as understanding it, if you get my drift…
    Edyt,
    While you are entitled to your opinion, I have to agree that that post was mean spirited. It certainly shut down all lines of communication and it caused pain to two people that I care very much about.
    While I agree with you that there are many people that wear the Christian label who are anything but, and Jesus would be appalled that they claim to be His followers, you didn’t exactly do such a great job of setting an example yourself.
    I understand what you were trying to say, (at least I think I do), but Jesus was faced with the exact same challenges back then as He would be today. Hypocrisy. Pharisees claiming to understand God. Rich men hoarding money while widows gave their last pennies…and yet he managed to enlighten those who were willing to listen, not by mocking who they were, but by loving who they could be. He loved even those who made fun of Him, hurt His followers, killed Him and corrupted the world. He loves you too.
    He was not a liberal, except that He came to liberate man from himself. He was not a conservative, except that he came to conserve what His father had given us.
    What He really was/is, was a rebel.
    All the streets are filled with laughter and light
    And the music of the season
    And the merchants windows are all bright
    With the faces of the children
    And the families hurrying to their homes
    As the sky darkens and freezes
    They’ll be gathering around the hearths and tales
    Giving thanks for all gods graces
    And the birth of the rebel, jesus
    *
    Well they call him by the prince of peace
    And they call him by the savior
    And they pray to him upon the seas
    And in every bold endeavor
    As they fill his churches with their pride and gold
    And their faith in him increases
    But theyve turned the nature that I worshipped in
    From a temple to a robbers den
    In the words of the rebel jesus
    *
    We guard our world with locks and guns
    And we guard our fine possessions
    And once a year when christmas comes
    We give to our relations
    And perhaps we give a little to the poor
    If the generosity should seize us
    But if any one of us should interfere
    In the business of why they are poor
    They get the same as the rebel jesus
    *
    But please forgive me if I seem
    To take the tone of judgement
    For Ive no wish to come between
    This day and your enjoyment
    In this life of hardship and of earthly toil
    We have need for anything that frees us
    So I bid you pleasure
    And I bid you cheer
    From a heathen and a pagan
    On the side of the rebel jesus.

  40. Karen at the Families against Planned Parenthood web site is asking for everyone’s special prayers. A 14 year old couple is scheduled to have an abortion at 7 AM tomorrow (Friday) morning. They are being pressured by their parents. Please pray that they change their minds and do not go through with the abortion.
    (Perhaps they can find a couple to adopt their baby?)

  41. Edyt, you said:
    “Hehe, yup, I’m pretty sure if Jesus came back today he’d be seen as a liberal.
    He’d probably get drunk with a bunch of homosexuals at a gay bar (remember he was accused of being a drunkard and associating with those bad bad people).”
    Jesus never sinned so he didn’t get drunk. What you said was actually blashemous. He may have associated with sinners and drunkards, however, never once did he get drunk or partake in their sinful behavior.
    “He’d probably speak out against the war (“Blessed are the peacemakers”) and get arrested and beaten by a conservative cop during an anti-war rally.”
    The peace Jesus is talking about is the peace between fallen mankind and their Creator. Wars result when good men stand against evil men. If Jesus hated the military like you did He would not have described the faith of the Roman Centurion as the greatest in all of Israel.
    “He’d probably throw a fit over the fact that we didn’t help those people after Hurricane Katrina, and that we don’t do much to help the poor or hungry.”
    Do you know what Katrina means Edyt? It measn cleansing. Think about it. And who answere the call there? Yep, the churches did. Yes even this conservative spent a week in LA at the Dream Center working 18 hours a day helping many displaced people from their get settled in. What did you do? Also, Jesus said, “the poor you will always have with you”. In God’s mind it is not the lack of material wealth that makes one poor, it’s the lack of a relationship with God that makes one absolutely naked and wretched and without hope. True wealth is found in right realtionship with God (righteousness), not money, not stuff, not in an abudnance of anything on this earth. “Seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven and it’s righteousness and all these things will be added unti you”.
    “Conservatives love capitalism, which has a funny way of eliminating the little guy by crushingly large businesses. It’s actually the liberals who are all for helping other people get up to the same level. (Sure, not all programs are effective, but come on, it wasn’t the liberals that cut funding to education, anti-violence programs, and other community aid programs)”
    Wrong again Edyt. If you understood God’s Word there’s the parable of the talents. It’s about people who use their talents get more and those who bury their talents get even the stuff those with more have. Read it and then complain to God’s about His view of economy.
    “He’d probably hate everyone who thought destroying the earth for our own gains was a good idea. And those people who hold themselves in higher regard than animals. Stewards? Ha!(Ecclesiastes 3:19

  42. Janet,
    Well, Bethany for one! LOL. And every newspaper has couples asking for children. Plus our parish priest has told me that if I ever hear of someone that wants to give their baby up, I should let him know because he knows couples that want to adopt.
    You could also contact any adoption lawyers, or Catholic Charities…the waiting list to adopt is a minimum of a year. Many, many couples…no babies.

  43. Edyt, I know you think that you know and understand Scripture but you don’t. You use it for your own ends to support what you want to believe. Remember, God is extremely offended at this type of exegesis.
    The difference between knowing you ABC’s and knowing how to read.

  44. I know it is sacreligious on the Jill Stanek site, but Jesus had NOTHING to say about abortion (which was routinely practiced at the time) or homosexuality. He did have a lot to say about helping the poor, the sick, and he did spend a lot of time with the marginalized “sinners” of society. He also had harsh words for the Pharisees that, much like today’s religious right, thundered about sin and their own personal purity and piety. So you tell me which party Jesus would join, huh?
    P.s. I think Huckabee was right, Jesus would be smart enought to stay out of politics.

  45. Btw, Homosexuality and abortion are morality issues, not a political issues… Jesus never (in the new testament) directly condemned pedophilia, sodomy, rape, bestiality, or a lot of other specific sins…but that doesn’t mean He supported them. If Jesus is God, then it wouldn’t make sense to say that He would contradict Himself from one Testament to the other.

  46. JohnS – ever hear of loving your neighbor? I believe he called that a commandment like the one where you are called to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind soul and strength. (Sh’ma Y’Israel – Deut 6:4)
    The only way you can say such a statement re: abortion is for you to ignore the fact that the unborn are human beings, full fledged human beings from the moment of conception on. For the mother, you can’t get any closer “neighbor’ than your own child. And killing the child – abortion does kill a child – otherwise, she wouldn’t be “pregnant”, is not loving that child. We don’t kill each other and call it love. Not if you’re sane.
    P.s. I think Huckabee was right, Jesus would be smart enought to stay out of politics.
    Correction – Jesus is completely involved in politics – He’s King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
    One thing people really hate is that the Kingdom of God is not a democracy, and those who break the law cannot get away from justice.
    CS Lewis said: “Jesus is either Lord, a liar or a lunatic.” I believe he’s Lord for many substantial reasons.
    If as he said in John 14:6: “I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father, except by me.” is true, then you might want to really dig in to what he said, because one day you’ll be face to face with Him. The last thing you want to be doing is saying something untrue about Him.
    I’ve broken His law – what about you?

  47. “One thing people really hate is that the Kingdom of God is not a democracy, and those who break the law cannot get away from justice.”
    AMEN!

  48. 1. “Thou shalt not kill” begs the question, is abortion killing? And if so, is it justified? God commanded the Hebrews to kill ALOT of people in the OT, so killing is obviously not just prohibited like in Buddhism for instance. It’s strange that this issue that is so central to right-wing Christianity today is never even touched on in the Bible.
    2. Jesus never called homosexuality an “abomination” that’s in Leviticus. And if we followed Leviticus no one would eat ham, cheeseburgers, or shrimp. It’s not in the 10 Commandments, and Jesus never spoke on it, so I think the verdict is still out on homosexuality. A ban on homosexuality may have some value to a struggling band of nomads trying to capture a country, and make little sense in modern first-world democratic egalitarian societies. And Paul had a bit of the Pharisee left in him.
    3. No one here is God or has the right to claim to speak for him. I think the fundies of the world may find a lot of what they had to say about Him was wrong when the meet Jesus face to face….

  49. John, what if Jesus did say abortion and homosexuality were wrong? Would you then believe that they are wrong?

  50. 3. No one here is God or has the right to claim to speak for him.
    Hmm – Mt 28:18: The Jesus came to them and said “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
    Disciples teaching disciples, calling for repentance and forgiveness, bringing Good News of God’s plan of salvation, for his Kingdom. Authorized by the Lord.
    Yeah, looks like he granted the right to speak truthfully for him.
    John – those of us who know the Lord – we’ve already met him face to face. He showed me that no matter how bad I was, he wanted me.
    He loves you John.
    We can’t change your heart, that’s up to you and God. Love must be freely given.

  51. Chris, I don’t think you were around in 33 A.D. There is a concept called Apostolic succession that says that this empowering of the disciples passed down thru the Church, so maybe Pope Benedict has the right to speak, if you buy into that. But keep in mind that if you are right then everyone from the Unitarians to the Pentacostals have the right to “speak” for God, and those groups are going to have very different (and often contradictory) things to say. Jim Jones, David Koresh, the Morman guy in Texas with all the child brides, they all say they speak for God. God left us a collection of Books that you can read and try to figure out what he meant. People come to different conclusions on that, and that’s not going to change. My point is if you think yours, and only your interpretation, is correct, keep in mind lots of other people with different interpretation think that also.
    Bobby, if He did, he probably would have explained why, which would be helpful. Abortion is a hard one no doubt, it certainly looks like murder. Homosexuality is more iffy, hard to see in the 21st century what harm 3-5% of the population being gay does to society, so why ban it?

  52. Edyt, I know you think that you know and understand Scripture but you don’t. You use it for your own ends to support what you want to believe. Remember, God is extremely offended at this type of exegesis.
    Oh please, you’re all no better. Homosexuality is one that you all have misunderstood. It’s either one of those pick-and-choose verses or you don’t understand the cultural differences.

  53. EVERYONE uses the Bible to support their own view. You can pretty much pick and chose here and there to support both sides of most moral debates. One person’s “exegesis” is another persons “Word of God given once and for all time.”

  54. John S: “Thou shalt not kill” begs the question, is abortion killing? And if so, is it justified? God commanded the Hebrews to kill ALOT of people in the OT, so killing is obviously not just prohibited like in Buddhism for instance. It’s strange that this issue that is so central to right-wing Christianity today is never even touched on in the Bible.
    Right – the meaning in all Bible versions, and the actual wording in some, is “thou shalt not murder,” and abortion was not held to be murder in biblical times. Obviously, it’s not really like “all killing” was prohibited in the Old Testament….

  55. JohnS – Does your in-depth studies of the Old Testament and New Testament validate what’s been passed on through the last two millennium?
    David Koresh, Jim Jones, etc.? Should I treat your comments seriously with this kind of correlation?
    My point is if you think yours, and only your interpretation, is correct, keep in mind lots of other people with different interpretation think that also.
    Yes – but it’s really hard to avoid what Jesus said in John 14:6. That’s a major truth claim that can’t be avoided, just as no one can deny that Jesus Christ (Y’shua haMashiach) didn’t impact the entire world, which happens to fulfill ancient messianic prophecy. I’m not claiming perfection – that’s why He’s my advocate.
    EVERYONE uses the Bible to support their own view. You can pretty much pick and chose here and there to support both sides of most moral debates.
    Such picking and choosing would be wrong – it’s interesting that you raise that as a point in defense of your argument. It says a great deal about your perspective. The question is – and always comes down to: “what do you believe?”
    John, any argument you might have is not with me, because ultimately I’m not the judge – He is.

  56. Right – the meaning in all Bible versions, and the actual wording in some, is “thou shalt not murder,” and abortion was not held to be murder in biblical times.
    Doug – look up Exodus 23:7.

  57. Edyt, I know you think that you know and understand Scripture but you don’t. You use it for your own ends to support what you want to believe. Remember, God is extremely offended at this type of exegesis.
    Oh please, you’re all no better. Homosexuality is one that you all have misunderstood. It’s either one of those pick-and-choose verses or you don’t understand the cultural differences.
    Posted by: Edyt at May 30, 2008 12:49 PM
    Edyt, God created man and woman as a special relationship where the two join together and become one. How else would you interpret that?

  58. He’d probably get drunk with a bunch of homosexuals at a gay bar (remember he was accused of being a drunkard and associating with those bad bad people).
    Posted by: Edyt at May 28, 2008 6:25 PM
    Edyt, you are the queen of blaspheme. Jesus would be all right. But he wouldn’t be drunk, he spoke out against drunkeness during his life so I don;t know where you get your ideas from. And he would be telling the homos to repent and believe the Good News of scripture. And nowhere in Scripture does Jesus about “relations” does he condone homosexuality. The truth of Christian faith is not something you seek, rather you just like to post blasphemey and get a rise out Christians of faith.

  59. He’d probably get drunk with a bunch of homosexuals at a gay bar (remember he was accused of being a drunkard and associating with those bad bad people).
    Posted by: Edyt at May 28, 2008 6:25 PM
    Edyt, you are the queen of blaspheme. Jesus would be at the gay bar all right. But he wouldn’t be drunk, he spoke out against drunkeness during his life so I don’t know where you get your ideas from. And he would be telling the homos to repent and believe the Good News of scripture. And nowhere in Scripture does Jesus teaching about “relations” does he condone homosexuality. Rather he teaches about the purity and goodnes of man and woman living infidelity together. It is becoming apparent that the truth of Christian faith is not something you seek, rather you just like to post blasphemey and get a rise out Christians of faith. Your statement that Jesus would be a drunkard is no more than a bold-faced lie. I grow tired of excusing your lies as ignorance and I am beginning to lose all respect for your posts.

  60. Where in the Bible did Jesus speak out against either drunkenness or homosexuality? Where did he declare unions were only between a man and a woman? And why did he turn water into wine so more people could drink?

  61. Edyt,
    Drunkards are people who put themselves in an “abnormal state” characterized by mental black-outs and lack of physical coordination. Putting yourself in this “state” makes you much less cable of serving others and actually makes you likely to unwittedly hurt others. Each time you get drunk and put yourself in this “state” you are losing your sensibilities and putting the Lord your God to the test. Jesus spoke out against doing this when the Devil was tempting him in the desert.
    This is why your “literal” approach to the Bible is so lacking. Jesus didn’t tell you specifically “do not get drunk” so you take that and twist it into meaning he did not teach against drunkenness. When you post such preposterous things it diminishes any feelings I have that you are interested in any genuine discussions about Jesus teachings.
    I would love to tell you in detail about the meanings in the “Miracle at the Wedding in Cana”. Before I give you a more detailed explanation of this wonderful beginning of Jesus public ministry, please tell me first, what part of Jesus mission to love others you could fulfill better in a drunken state?

  62. Should have read:
    I would love to tell you in detail about the meanings in the “Miracle at the Wedding in Cana”. Before I give you a more detailed explanation of this wonderful beginning of Jesus public ministry, please tell me first, what part of Jesus mission to love others you could YOU fulfill better in a drunken state?

  63. Truthseeker, likewise.
    Posted by: heather at May 30, 2008 6:30 PM
    Hello Heather, it is good to see you posting again.

  64. “Right – the meaning in all Bible versions, and the actual wording in some, is “thou shalt not murder,” and abortion was not held to be murder in biblical times.”
    Doug – look up Exodus 23:7.
    And add all the orders for killing, rules for killing, etc., and in no way was killing, per se, prohibited.

  65. Exodus 23:7:
    Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty.
    Ok so? Don’t kill innocent people…what’s the point? Abortion, as pointed out earlier, was not considered this back in Biblical times…why?

  66. Ok so? Don’t kill innocent people…what’s the point? Abortion, as pointed out earlier, was not considered this back in Biblical times…why?
    Posted by: JohnS at June 1, 2008 10:28 AM
    It was a given. Common sense. The bible says we are created in the image and likeness of God, therefore God would not condone the killing of His children. It goes without saying.

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