NYT profiles Purity Ball
From the New York Times yesterday…
Colorado Springs – In their floor-length gowns, up-dos and tiaras, the 70 or so young women swept past two harpists and into a gilt-and-brocade dining room at the lavish Broadmoor Hotel, on the arms of their much older male companions.
The girls, ages early grade school to college, had come with their fathers, stepfathers and future fathers-in-law last Friday night to the ninth annual Father-Daughter Purity Ball….
The evening, which alternated between homemade Christian rituals and giddy dancing, was a joyous public affirmation of the girls’ sexual abstinence until they wed….
For… [a] growing number of people who have come to their balls, premarital sex is seen as inevitably destructive, especially to girls, who they say suffer more because they are more emotional than boys. Fathers, they say, play a crucial role in helping them stay pure….
No one knows for certain how many purity balls are held nationwide, because they are grass-roots efforts. The Abstinence Clearinghouse, an advocacy group, says it sells hundreds of purity ball kits annually to interested groups all over the country and abroad….
If most teenage girls would not be caught dead dancing with their dads, the girls at the ball twirled for hours with their game but stiff fathers. Every half-hour, Mr. Wilson stopped the dancing so that fathers could bless their daughters before everyone.
The dancing continued past the ball’s official end at midnight. Mr. Wilson had to tell people to go home. The fathers took their flushed and sometimes sleepy girls toward the exit. But one father took his two young daughters for a walk around the hotel’s dark, glassy lake.
The piece was fair except for the 2nd half of this paragraph:
Recent studies have suggested that close relationships between fathers and daughters can reduce the risk of early sexual activity among girls and teenage pregnancy. But studies have also shown that most teenagers who say they will remain abstinent, like those at the ball, end up having sex before marriage, and they are far less likely to use condoms than their peers.
The NYT should name its negative studies. Likely they are coming from organizations with a pro-sex agenda. Last month the Heritage Foundation evaluated 21 studies, many peer reviewed:
16 of the 21 studies reported statistically significant positive results, such as delayed sexual initiation and reduced levels of early sexual activity, among youths who have received abstinence education.
I’ve listed the studies below. The NYT presented abstinence in a positive light only to try to pull the rug out.
Studies Reporting Significant Results
1. Stan Weed, Irene H. Ericksen, Allen Lewis, Gale E. Grant, and Kathy H. Wibberly, “An Abstinence Program’s Impact on Cognitive Mediators and Sexual Initiation,” American Journal of Health Behavior, Vol. 31, No. 1 (2008), pp. 60-73.
2. George Denny and Michael Young, “An Evaluation of an Abstinence-Only Sex Education Curriculum: An 18-Month Follow-Up,” Journal of School Health, Vol. 76, No. 8 (October 2006), pp. 414-422.
3. Stan E. Weed, Irene H. Ericksen, and Paul James Birch, “An Evaluation of the Heritage Keepers Abstinence Education Program,” Institute for Research and Evaluation (Salt Lake City), November 2005, at www.heritageservices.org/Stan%20Weed’s%20HHS%20Conference%20article.pdf (December 1, 2006).
4. Elaine A. Borawski, Erika S. Trapl, Loren D. Lovegreen, Natalie Colabianchi, and Tonya Block, “Effectiveness of Abstinence-Only Intervention on Middle School Teens,” American Journal of Health Behavior, Vol. 29, No. 5 (September/October 2005), pp. 423-434.
5. Robert Lerner, “Can Abstinence Work? An Analysis of the Best Friends Program,” Adolescent & Family Health, Vol. 3, No. 4 (April 2005), pp. 185-192.
6. Andrew Doniger, John S. Riley, Cheryl A. Utter, and Edgar Adams, “Impact Evaluation of the ‘Not Me, Not Now’ Abstinence-Oriented, Adolescent Pregnancy Prevention Communications Program, Monroe County, N.Y.,” Journal of Health Communication, Vol. 6, No. 1 (January-March 2001), pp. 45-60.
7. Stan E. Weed, “Title V Abstinence Education Programs: Phase I Interim Evaluation Report to Arkansas Department of Health, Institute for Research and Evaluation,” October 15, 2001.
8. John B. Jemmott III, Loretta Sweet Jemmott, and Geoffrey T. Fong, “Abstinence and Safer Sex HIV Risk-Reduction Interventions for African American Adolescents: A Randomized Controlled Trial,” JAMA, Vol. 279, No. 19 (May 20, 1998), pp. 1529-1536.
9. Tena L. St. Pierre, Melvin M. Mark, D. Lynne Kaltreider, and Kathryn J. Aikin, “A 27-Month Evaluation of a Sexual Activity Prevention Program in Boys & Girls Clubs Across the Nation,” Family Relations, Vol. 44, No. 1 (January 1995), pp. 69-77.
10. Stephen R. Jorgensen, Vicki Potts, and Brian Camp, “Project Taking Charge: Six-Month Follow-Up of a Pregnancy Prevention Program for Early Adolescents,” Family Relations, Vol. 42, No. 4 (October 1993), pp. 401-406.
11. Stan E. Weed et al., “Predicting and Changing Teen Sexual Activity Rates: A Comparison of Three Title XX Programs,” report to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Office of Adolescent Pregnancy Programs, December 1992.
12. Michael Resnick et al., “Protecting Adolescents from Harm: Findings from the National Longitudinal Study on Adolescent Health,” JAMA, Vol. 278, No. 10 (September 10, 1997), pp. 823-832.
13. Peter S. Bearman and Hanna Brückner, “Promising the Future: Virginity Pledges and First Intercourse,” American Journal of Sociology, Vol. 106, No. 4 (January 2001), pp. 852-912.
14. Robert E. Rector, Kirk A. Johnson, and Jennifer A. Marshall, “Teens Who Make Virginity Pledges Have Substantially Improved Life Outcomes,” Heritage Foundation Center for Data Analysis Report No. CDA04-07, September 21, 2004, at www.heritage.org/Research/Abstinence/cda04-07.cfm.
15. Robert Rector and Kirk A. Johnson, “Adolescent Virginity Pledges, Condom Use, and Sexually Transmitted Diseases Among Young Adults,” paper presented at the Eighth Annual National Welfare Research and Evaluation Conference of the Administration for Children and Families, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, June 14, 2005, at www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/upload/79366_1.pdf.
16. Robert Rector and Kirk A. Johnson, “Adolescent Virginity Pledges and Risky Sexual Behaviors,” paper presented at the Eighth Annual National Welfare Research and Evaluation Conference of the Administration for Children and Families, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, June 14, 2005, at www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/upload/79314_1.pdf.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I think Purity Balls are creepy as all get out.
I have never heard of this before. I would like to meet some of the people and actually attend one before making an opinion.
I think Rae, you feel this way because it’s so counter-cultural.
Virtually everyone has sex before marriage today and those who don’t are likely the ones without boyfriends.
It’s too bad that society has gone to this extreme that we now have to have something like this to “encourage” our young people to save themselves until marriage. Use to be that was understood as the way to go. It was the ideal to be aimed for.
I wonder how long it will be for SoMG to take down your studies, Jill? Seems he has a penchant for it!
@Patricia: No, I don’t think it’s counter-cultural. I think it’s creepy that these girls are pledging their virginity to their fathers.
It also begs the question, where are the purity balls for gentlemen? Boys screw around too.
“Virtually everyone has sex before marriage today and those who don’t are likely the ones without boyfriends.”
*shrugs*
Yeah, I’ve never had a boyfriend and am still the proud owner of my V-card but even if I had a boyfriend- I probably would still have my V-card.
I agree with Rae, these kind of things honestly creep me out. Regardless of whether or not someone chooses to remain abstinent I could honestly care less, but pledging something like that to a family member is just creepy, esp when some seem to be at the age when they don’t really have any idea what sex is or even really means, etc.
I am a virgin. I dont plan on being abstinent, but I dont plan on running around having wild orgies either. I will not have sex until I and my partner BOTH feel ready, and I can honestly say I wouldn’t feel ready right now regardless as to whether or not I was dating someone. I have no problem waiting if my partner wants to, nor do I have an issue having it PROVIDED I feel I and my partner really are ready. I’m not in search of sex, in fact I could care less. I dont even think I’d care if I was a virgin for life personally. But I digress.
These types of events honestly seem a bit cult like to me in some regards. A bunch of people pledging their virginity just sounds like some sort of creepy and cult like action, espescially, like I said before, when some seem to be at such a young age and may not really know all that much about whats going on.
There’s nothing wrong with pledging to stay abstinent til marriage. There was an article once in my local paper about a purity tea party. The comments to the article were rather nasty — because the girls were quoted as saying the types of qualities they wanted in a husband. I guess wanting a ‘gentleman’ is not politically correct. And chastity is a dirty word for today’s over sexed secular society.
CREEP-EEE.
There was this trend when I was in middle school where all these Christian girls took a pledge to remain virgins until they got married, and they all got these cheap little rings to wear on their ring fingers.
By high school graduation I don’t think a single one of them was still wearing that ring. Even the ones who chose not to have sex knew the whole pledge thing was just weird. It’s nobody’s business.
I don’t know. I think there is something sweet about fathers taking an active role in “protecting” their daughters.
Maybe it does seem ritualistic, but if it’s kept simple and everyone has fun, where’s the harm.
I know I’m a daddy’s girl and still remember (with a lump in my throat) when I danced with him at my wedding. I don’t remember dancing with my husband, but I remember that moment.
I agree tho, there should be something similar for dad’s and their sons.
Again- what about the gentlemen? I notice that nobody has commented on “purity balls” for boys.
Afterall- it takes two to tango.
@MK: Or moms and their sons. :)
well, it couldn’t be called a “Ball” for the boys, Rae. I think mothers should teach their sons to respect women. Maybe if boys were taught respect of women, women wouldn’t be used as sex objects by many men in this society.
I think there’s no harm in it. It’s a good visual to what the parents are trying to teach their girls. Hopefully, the girls will remember this dance being special like mk remembers her dance with her dad on her wedding day. (very sweet, mk!)
HOWEVER…I think it’s really, really creepy that: “The girls, ages early grade school to college”….early grade school???? What on earth are the fathers telling these “way too young to know” girls why they are there? I pray they arn’t giving young children “the talk”. That would be sad and an invasion of their childhood.
Nothing ‘creepy’ about a purity ball. What’s creepy are ‘rave’ parties combined with the use of ‘ecstacy’.
I read a number of years ago about fathers taking the time to take their daughters out on dates.
By that I mean, a simple meal at a restaurant where both dressed nicely and the young girl was shown what she should expect from a man.
The father is a girls first contact with men and they should model how men should treat women.
Maybe the fathers (for the early grade school aged girls) are pledging to be good examples by showing love and respect for the girls and for their mothers.
Rae,
Yeah moms and their sons, but it seems like a father should be teaching his son how to treat women, you know? I mean with a mom it would be more like “time together”, where with a dad it might be more like “Hey, this is how you do it son”…Although I can’t for the life of me figure out what they could do that would “focus” on how to treat a woman, unless there were women present…Hmmmmm…
Andy-
I wouldn’t call ‘raves’ themselves creepy. I mean, there is a girl in our town who motivated herself and began her own random dance parties with the strobe lights, water, etc. She pulls out all the stops, charges a small admission ($5-$10) pays off any debt, and then donates the majority remaining to charity and putting the rest towards future parties. Going into it it is a lot like a rave minus drug use. The use of ecstasy isnt so much creepy as sad, and perhaps a bit disturbing when one considers the possible outcomes of taking the drug and weighing it against the high the user is looking for. We just talked about club/date rape drugs in health class yesterday, as we did freshman year. It’s really more worrying that people believe it does no harm or can’t kill them or that its safe.
Until a girl is married, her father is “her man” (unless he’s a bum or something like that). He is her guardian, her protector. This is why for so long, men asked the father’s permission to marry his daughter (and some still do). So yes, in a sense, a daughter’s virginity is pledged to her father until he “lets go of it” and gives her away to the daughter’s husband. True, it seems like a funny way of speaking, but it is this importnat concept that is behind this language.
As far as the men goes, if men understood what I wrote above, there should be no need for them to pledge their virginity to their mothers because they would understand that the father is the girl’s man, and not the boyfriend/finance. I say that somewhat tongue-and-cheek, but it’s true that if men had a healthy respect for the father-daughter relationship, they would be much less interested in sex. The bf should treat the gf as if the father is watching at all times. He should not do anything to her that he thinks the father would disapprove of because he needs to respect the role of guardian and protector that the father has over his daughter.
Andy,
Do you think it’s creepy for a father to take an innocent “early grade school-aged” girl to a PURITY ball???
Andy-
Wow, I had no idea people actually still went to “raves.”
Liz-
I read the article and saw nothing about the dads taking pledges.
Patricia-
My dad took me on “dates” quite often when I was young. We would get dressed up and go to a nice restaurant, just the two of us. I always had a good time, but I probably would have choked on my food if he had brought up a virginity pledge on one of these dates. Unless I was as young as some of the girls in those pictures. Then I probably would have been as clueless as to what it meant as I’m sure they are.
My understanding is that the girl pledges her virginity to God. Her Daddy is the first man in her life and the men that take their daughters to purity balls set a high standard for future sons in law. :)
I think it is terribly sweet. Wish I would have had that.
“I read a number of years ago about fathers taking the time to take their daughters out on dates.
By that I mean, a simple meal at a restaurant where both dressed nicely and the young girl was shown what she should expect from a man.”
@Patricia: See now, I can agree with that. It gets rid of the “creep” factor of pledging your virginity to your *dad*, but still keeps the father involved and sets a great example for the daughter on what she should look for in boys.
@MK: I think the mothers should teach the sons how to treat women and the fathers to show daughters a good example of a man. Of course, both parents should be involved with sons and daughters, but this is just my take.
Bobby, I agree!
By the way, It’s always nice when a Dad treats his daughter to a special night out. (Hint, hint, in a few years).
Men also need to respect their wives, and vice-versa, in such a way that their children can mirror that relationship when the time comes to begin their own relationships with the opposite sex.
Dan, Good for you. You’re doing great! Go for the same in a future mate, too. It’s worth the wait.
So it’s okay to make an elementary student pledge her virginity to her father (or God) but it’s not okay to talk about sex in schools.
Wow.
So these girls are making pledges, in some cases, about something they’ve never fully considered? Something they don’t actually understand? Something they don’t even have the urge to do?
I’m all in favor of dads being a part of their daughter’s life, but I am creeped out by the idea that her virginity belongs to him and is then given away to her husband. Where is her ownership?
P.S. The Heritage Foundation is biased. Plenty of non-biased organizations have found that those who pledge to stay abstinent are equally as likely to engage in sexual behavior as their peers, and less likely to use protection while doing so. The NYT probably didn’t cite the exact studies because there are many and that information has been widely known for the past few years at least.
Bobby Bambino @ 7:58 PM Right – excellent comments.
Rae said: I think the mothers should teach the sons how to treat women and the fathers to show daughters a good example of a man.
Doesn’t really work – guys need respect more than love. Women need love more than respect. A father demonstrates how to love a woman to his son, by being wonderful to his wife. Sons need to learn this from a man, because learning from their mothers (especially teens) makes them look like “momma’s boys” – they lose respect from other like-aged guys. (All the more reason why solid Dads are essential!)
Here’s what I’ve written before based on ideas described by Jimmy Evans:
A woman has 4 needs in a marriage – security, non-sexual affection, intimate communication and leadership. Only her husband should be meeting those needs. Any other way is adulterous. As a girl grows into a woman, her mother cannot disciple her daughter after puberty on these needs, she will be looking at what her father does to both meet her needs and her mother’s needs. The more a father models meeting those needs with his wife, and appropriately (and chastely) meets those needs with his daughter, the more she will blossom into a woman of immeasurable value who’ll be secure in her sexual identity and it’s proper role in her life.
A man’s needs in a marriage include honor & respect, kindred fellowship, an emotionally enriching environment, and sex. Here a father is also foundational in modeling and leading his son. A boy growing into a young man needs to understand how these needs are chastely met, and the only one who can disciple him in this area is another man. He doesn’t want to be under the teaching of a woman – his own mother. The father sets the boundaries for proper behavior, can still authoritatively discipline his son and guide him towards a full maturity. Sexual maturity is needed before sexual experience.
“By the way, It’s always nice when a Dad treats his daughter to a special night out. (Hint, hint, in a few years).”
Already planning on it, Janet :)
Chris – Your post reminds me of something I hear from our school principal from time to time about fathers and boys. Bullying is a big problem in schools these days. He said a lot of boys could reduce the chance they’d be bullied/teased if their fathers would just take them out in the backyard from time to time and play catch with them (baseball, etc…). Of course that doesn’t excuse the behavior of the bullies at all. I thought that was an interesting point.
Bobby, You’re such a good Daddy to your little bambina!
Hi Rae and Dan,
possibly why you feel ‘creepy’ about this (that this pledge, which is in sexual language – virginity) is a pledge of continued innocence. Innocence and virginity are the same thing only to a teen – young adult.
Innocence is the major quality not only of childhood and human friendships, … it is the main quality of a person that seeks to protect – n’est pas?
It is perhaps an uncomfortable feeling with innocence. It is so funny that some women want the rabid-feminist label. And get it by seeking the end of innocence.
Strange that anti-Christians are never comfortable with Jesus The Innocent One.
I think it was Steve Wood who talked about the date idea.
I think it’s fabulous.
Bobby, Gianna will need to be locked in her room til she’s 30! What a sweetie!
Janet – yeah, most of the time bullying happens because of a lack of attention. When respect isn’t given (for whatever reason) it tends to be forcefully demanded. Young men need acknowledgment from older men that they respect. Dads are critical.
I think Purity Balls are CREEPY…
My father still takes me out. Just the two of us (although now we consume tequila and “shoot the $h*t). We talk about pretty much anything; except sex. We have a military code approach to that subject; he doesn’t ask, and I don’t tell. That’s just creepy, a father and daughter talking about sex…My mother and I don’t even talk about that subject…
oOoOo I’m getting the chills just thinking of that conversation..
While on the topic of purity, a friend of mine has a young son. He’s decided to save that “first kiss” for someone really special. He’ll point to his lips and says “these lips are sacred” ! I don’t know where he came up with the phrase, but I think it’s really cute!
I can attest to these type of father/daugher events. It’s more than that though.
It’s a dad who, from the moment of birth has the responsibility to protect, nuture, raise, and then let go of his daughter, must bring her up with a strong sense of herself, why she is so tremendously valuable that she should never give herself away immorally, and that she learn that the most important man in her life is Jesus Christ. That is a rock solid combination that the Mafia driven pornography industry, Hollywood, NARAL, NOW, Planned Parenthood, the garbage Oprah Winfrey spews and even the gates of hell cannot penetrate.
My daughter Mary, who was rabidly attacked by some of the pro-aborts on this site in April of 2007 when she said a few words on my post. She was viciously and verbally accused of being brainwashed by me because I raised her on such a rock solid foundation. And that by Laura and Erin and Cameron and Amanda and the bunch. Bethany can attest to that.
Well, she finished her first year of college with straight A’s. She’s double majoring in Special Ed and Elementary Education and will take only 3 years to graduate.
Her boyfriend has decided to become a Pastor and they are heavily involved in Inter-Varsity a rabid pro-life, pro-God, Christian college age fellowship. (Google “the doctrine of the shedding of innocent blood”)
And oh, by the way, she’s still a virgin because she just won’t give herself away without a covenantal marriage relationship.
If a dad has any balls at all, he would raise his daughter by being able to say no and stick to it and hold firm to his own faith in Jesus Christ. She’s not your little girl. She belongs to God and it’s up to you fathers to give her back to Him the way He gave her to you, pure and undefiled. Then and only then can you call yourself a real man and will realize what a magnificent trust God put in your hands. Don’t blow it dads. You’ve got one shot at it. You will save her from the likes of the SoMGs and teh Camerons of the world, you know, the doctors-in-it-for-the-money-I-want-to-find-a-trophy-wife-type.
Also, it helps to be cleaning your rather substantial gun and knife collection when the sex crazed weasel comes over for the first time. I especially liked showing him my complete Glock collection, followed by H&K’s, Steyers, AR-15, and M&P15 and of course the Barettas imported directly from Italy. My Israeli made semi-automatic tacticals I was especially proud of showing him along with my concealed weapons permit, the one with the pretty hologram on it.
My first question to him was, “how’s your faith in Christ”, my second question was, “do you have any points are your license”, my third question was have you ever been drunk or taken drugs”, my forth question was “are you still a virgin”, my first statement to him was, “if you hurt my daughter I will kill you”.
Turns out the only kid that would pass that test was the first and only kid she’s ever brought home to meet dear old dad and I love him like a son. One little SoMG/Cameron type who wouldn’t meet me tried to take advantage of her once and well let’s just say he won’t ever be trying that again. Let’s just say they all think I’m the capo di tutti capi. Don’t be a wimp dads, your daughter won’t respect you or herself.
Please inform me how anyone BELONGS to another person HisMan….. Last time I checked, no one had “ownership” of another humanbeing. I believe that’s called slavery and is illegal…
Amen HisMan!
Fortunately, my dad never felt the need to be “possessive” or “protective”- I would have kicked his arse if he tried (verbally of course).
My craptacular temperament scared away any potential guys…so I didn’t really need much help. :D
My dad was protective when I needed his help. He knew that I could handle myself (and I still can) and he steps in if (1)I ask or (2)He knows I cant handle the situation alone…
Oh Midnite,
I can’t tell you how glad I am to see you. How’s papa? How are you? When is it your turn to come to Chicago?
MK:
Papa is doing about the same. It’s getting harder for him to breathe and he is having to take more pain medication, but thats all understandable, I guess. I am going to go down there the first weekend in June to spend some more time with him.
As for me, I am fine I guess. Just school and work basically. Oh, and hahahaha, I got a marriage proposal yesterday…In a “seriously joking” kind of way…
And as soon as I get money and time off of work, I will come visit Chicago I promise :o)
How are you doing?
I’m great. So who’s this proposing person? Any real interest in him?
I’ll have to wait til the morning to see your answer…wayyyyy past my bedtime, but I had to stay up to “secretly” decorate for Johnny’s B-day tomorrow. email soon. I miss you.
@MK: It’s past your bedtime! FOR SHAME!
Eh, we’ll have to wait and see ;o)
His name is Travis and I knew him in middle school..He moved in 8th grade to Miami and I havent talked to him since then.
Well, fast foward to now, he’s a Marine (& in Iraq at the moment). Well, he found me on MySpace and we started talking about two weeks ago..He’s nice, but I dont know him that well. But he’s already planning my visit to Miami in Ocotber/November and joking about marriage…. We’ll have to wait and see I guess..
MK,
it’s time for bed Mom….
Hi Midnite..hope your doing well…
Midnite,
I’ve missed you as well! I hope you come to Chi-town soon!
Mk,
Wish Johnny a happy b-day for me and from his future wifey, Gabriella hehehe.
And as to this article,
Sorry, it creeps me out. I used to do the father/daughter dances thing when I was in elementary school with my dad and that was fun. But I think I may have been confused if I ever had to go to a “purity” ball. What’s virginity? Sex? Abstinence? Lots of topics to cover with your elementary-aged child. Sorry..you want them to keep their innocence longer..I just don’t think THIS is the way to go.
It just seems counter-productive if you want your children to keep their innocence. There are other ways a dad can protect their daughter or instill values. Also, it’s more appropriate to cross that bridge when, I don’t know, AT LEAST puberty dontcha think?!
Hi Jasper,
I’m about as well as can be expected.. How are you? Hows the fam?
Midnite,
You should be my myspace friend!
Hello Elizabeth!!
I’ve missed all of y’all. I’ve just been so darn busy with school and work, it’s ridicuolous! Hows your beautiful daughter doing? And I promise to let you know when I make to the Windy City…
Midnight678:
You’re right. None of us belong’s to any other person. Daddy’s little girl is a “colloquialism”.
I think I was saying that we all belonged to God. He made us, we’re his property.
In fact, I am a slave to Christ and loving it.
Good luck with your new interest, I hope he treats you well.
Rae:
You got that whip from your dad. C’mon if the guy some credit.
well look me up by my e-mail address… midnite678@aol.com…
Whatever HisMan. I dont think anyone “belongs” to God…
As for the new interest: He’s in Iraq, stationed in N.C. and has a residence in Miami, and I probably wont leave Alabama, soooo….
And where did my “whip” come from? Out of thin air? Or does mi padre not deserve credit b/c of how I turned out??
okedoke midnite..will do…
@HisMan: Actually, good sir, my father is not cantankerous. He’s actually a very ordinary person. A little on the odd side personality-wise, and he does have a temper, but not to the extent of mine.
I take after my mom actually…
Hey midnite,
I looove all your ballerina pics on your profile..I’m gonna add you on myspace and facebook!!
Midnight678:
Regarding the “whip”, I was talking to Rae. But that’s OK, yo’ve got a huge “whip”. Is that from your dad or someone else in your family?
How’s your Papa. That’s your grandpa, right?
Hey you guys think dads are important, don’t you?
Rae:
Do you like your dad? Are you saying your mom was the domineering one in your family?
@HisMan: I love my dad very much. He treated me respectfully and kindly.
My mom was the domineering one yes- because the world revolved around her mood swings.
HisMan,
GOOD dads are important.
You know something? I have never been to a purity ball and I highly doubt that my daughter will go to one, either.
But I’m a little surprised at the reactions here to some dads wanting to be involved in their daughter’s lives, including protecting their purity and innocence.
I wish my dad had given a crap enough to stick around. I wish he had sent me a birthday card. I wish he had loved my mom enough not to cheat on her. I wish he could see how his LACK of involvement in my life caused a huge hole in my heart.
If he had been there and had given a crap about my purity, or gosh, even my SCHOOL day, or my BIRTHDAY, I think I’d count myself lucky.
Those of you who are responding with the sentiment of “my dad doesn’t TELL me what to do” have all had dads in your life who were there and cared enough to be involved, so excuse me for being a bit perturbed by your statements, as I had the exact opposite experience. I never had a father to advise or counsel me on ANY matter. I would have welcomed it, believe me.
I think that ANY dad who is loving and involved in his daughter’s life is to be applauded. Girls and boys who have good, involved fathers are very lucky.
Please hold your applause for MY father, who has never deserved any.
Kel,
I feel your pain..not for myself because I have a wonderful father..but for my baby who does not. :(
Kel:
I am sorry that your dad failed you. It’s not your fault. Men have been crippled, demonized and made objects of hate by today’s society and it takes a strong man to stand up to that. I had a very strong father and brothers and I have not been destroyed despite the efforts of many of the same types of people that post on this site. I will be here for you if you ever have any questions.
Rest assured. There’s a Heavenly Father beyond your imagination waiting to meet you. He loves and cares about you more than you can know. He already knows everything about you. What colors you like, what books you like to read, where you like to go, everything. Perhaps you already know Him but have not allowed Him to ravish your heart. He can be trusted.
In the privacy of your own heart, just ask this of him.
Daddy, where are you? Do you love me? He will answer when the time is right.
And Kel, I know you are an adult, so why I am I talking to you as if you were a little girl? Seems like you missed a lot. God can restore that. He says that if we come to Him as a little child He won’t ever reject us.
jlm 759pm
No, I do not think it’s creepy that fathers take their young daughters to such things.
Until a girl is married, her father is “her man” (unless he’s a bum or something like that). He is her guardian, her protector. This is why for so long, men asked the father’s permission to marry his daughter (and some still do). So yes, in a sense, a daughter’s virginity is pledged to her father until he “lets go of it” and gives her away to the daughter’s husband. True, it seems like a funny way of speaking, but it is this importnat concept that is behind this language.
As far as the men goes, if men understood what I wrote above, there should be no need for them to pledge their virginity to their mothers because they would understand that the father is the girl’s man, and not the boyfriend/finance. I say that somewhat tongue-and-cheek, but it’s true that if men had a healthy respect for the father-daughter relationship, they would be much less interested in sex. The bf should treat the gf as if the father is watching at all times. He should not do anything to her that he thinks the father would disapprove of because he needs to respect the role of guardian and protector that the father has over his daughter.
Posted by: Bobby Bambino at May 20, 2008 7:58 PM
…………………………….
Her man? The concept that you would believe that you owned your daughter’s sexuality until you gave your approval to some other man to own it, is pretty creepy. Make’s it sound like you think of little girls as property. Live stock. Very creepy Bobbie.
HisMan, thank you. :)
I do know the Lord. He has proven to me time and time again that He IS a Father to the fatherless.
It is just difficult for me to comprehend, I suppose, how some are choosing to interpret this as a father saying he “owns” his daughter when that isn’t the case at all. A father is to care for and protect his daughter. Mine never did. I still struggle with bitterness toward him at times, though I pray for him regularly. He and I don’t have a relationship, but that’s been his choice and not mine. I am open to a relationship with him, of any type, but we are just very different people who value different things. He values “stuff.” I value people. I pray that one day He will feel the love of Christ in a very real way.
And Bobby, I think you are right on in what you said. The example set by a father in manhood is SO important! The father IS the first man a little girl will look to for love. Believe me, a bad example speaks loudly, too…it took a very long time for me to trust any male with whom I would have a relationship. When I met the man I later married, he knew I had a lot of “trust issues.”
I (and others who are not trying to twist your words here) know what you are saying. You aren’t saying that you OWN your daughter’s sexuality. You are given charge or care over her until she is old enough to have charge of it herself. Ideally, that will be when she is “given away” by her daddy at her wedding. You are speaking of a TRUST relationship here–something I never had.
God bless you, Bobby, for being a good dad! :)
But Sad Eyed Sally,
did you teach your children your family tradition of being a anti-Catholic bigot? Why not?
Tell us again how your matriarchial family began its long journey of anti-Catholicism which you proudly defend through wanting others to join you in the sacred act of abortion.
Now that’s creepy, and bigoted.
Dear Kel,
I hear exactly what you are saying. I grew up with a father who was not interested in me or my life. I am also surprised to read the word “creepy” over and over. Can you imagine the thrill of being held by Daddy as he spins you around? Being the apple of his eye? Being able to trust him and love him and KNOW that he has YOUR best interests at heart?
WOW. I longed for it all of my life. Found it in Christ and I love that my daughter will never have to doubt her Daddy’s love. :)
Bless you, Kel.
Her man? The concept that you would believe that you owned your daughter’s sexuality until you gave your approval to some other man to own it, is pretty creepy. Make’s it sound like you think of little girls as property. Live stock. Very creepy Bobbie.
Posted by: Sally at May 21, 2008 1:09 AM
Sally,
Bobby meant that the father is the Protector of his daughter and that includes every aspect of her being, including her sexuality. IMO, it’s the father (or mother) who hands their daughter a package of pills or condoms who is creepy. They don’t see that their child is being used by someone for their own pleasure. They also don’t recognize that their child is seeking the affection lacking in their lives, from the wrong place.
And if you doubt the veracity of the above, studies have shown that girls from broken families are sexually active earlier than their peers from stable families with a father in the home.
Oh and HisMan,
You are an amazing father. Well done good and faithful servant.
My husband jokes about cleaning a gun(first he better purchase one)when a caller comes for his girlybug. He will say, “Son, I have no problem going back to prison.”
Taken from Bill Engvall of Blue Collar Comedy fame.(of course)
Carla, that’s too funny!
:)
Patricia,
I agreed with everything you said. Had my father “been there” I might not have made so many WRONG choices for myself and put myself in so many unhealthy relationships.
“Her man? The concept that you would believe that you owned your daughter’s sexuality until you gave your approval to some other man to own it, is pretty creepy. Make’s it sound like you think of little girls as property. Live stock. Very creepy Bobbie.”
Sally, just like in the “Gallup poll on life issues May 2008” post with MK, you are reading things that aren’t there. It’s embarrassing. Nowhere did I mention anything about ownership. If I was TexasRed, I would accuse you of having a reading comprehension problem.
And it’s Bobby, not Bobbie.
Carla, I think so many young women have been and are in that position today.
My dad is still alive, but it’s only after having my own kids and forming some close friendships with other women that I’ve realized just how lucky I was to have the dad I had (and still have).
Many of my friends now wish they hadn’t been sexually active in their younger years, – they’ve seen what it’s done to their marriages (and not causing divorce, because it didn’t, but just making achieving a certain level of intimacy that much more difficult).
I was close to my mom but when I was a young adult, I did alot of stuff with my dad. He was the one who took me to music lessons, skating practices and he even came up north with me one summer as companionship while I did my field work for my BSc thesis. It didn’t seem all that special then, but now I realize how lucky I was!
When I got my first job as a professional geologist he even handed out my business cards to friends (very embarrassing!!).
What did I expect from a man – to be treated with respect.
Whom did I learn that that from – my dad.
Kel @ 11:21 PM
I’m sorry you went though the experience so many women have gone through – unfortunately your father put himself first and did not see that true Love means giving our lives to our children. It’s not an easy task – especially for a guy. I know, I have two teen-age daughters. Guys really do not think/feel the same way as girls/women. My wife was shocked to learn how guys really think, because it’s so foreign to her. True intimacy about these things only happens in a very committed relationship where one is willing to put others first.
There’s a lot of truth in saying that the sins of our fathers are passed down from generation to generation.
Thanks for sharing Kel.
yllas @ 3:08 AM
yllas – how would you show compassion and love toward Sally?
If you say you’re in His light, then show that light. Please.
“Bobby, Gianna will need to be locked in her room til she’s 30! What a sweetie!”
Patricia, the day she turns 13 I’m locking her in her room and dressing her in a burlap sack.
Kel, you articulated my understanding beautifully! You and your father are in my prayers. I pray that he realizes what a wonderful woman has for a daughter. God love you.
Patricia, the day she turns 13 I’m locking her in her room and dressing her in a burlap sack.
GET THEE TO A NUNNERY ! ! !
Patricia,
You are blessed, indeed. :)
@Bobby: I think 13 is much too late. You should start earlier just to be on the safe side!!!
Kel: yes I think it must be very hard for some girls. But boys too are affected by their father’s inattention.
It’s too bad that society really puts down fatherhood. In some ways I think fathers a much more important than mothers. Father’s teach their children how the world works and how to be independent.
And in all fairness to men, women have hormones to help them with mothering. Men have to learn to father.
Men have been crippled, demonized and made objects of hate by today’s society and it takes a strong man to stand up to that.
Huh?!! So it’s society’s fault that there are so many deadbeat dad’s? If that’s REALLY what you mean with that statement HisMan, I am shocked. I did nothing but try to support my daughter’s father and gave him AMPLE opportunities to step up to the plate. I don’t blame society, I blame him.
Men have been crippled, demonized and made objects of hate by today’s society and it takes a strong man to stand up to that.
Posted by: HisMan at May 21, 2008 12:29 AM
I have to agree. Remember that trash bag commercial? The one where the woman is saying things like “I’ll use you, tie you up, throw you out and then get another one.” The double entendre for men was obvious and I just thought it was so sad.
I for one have a definite problem with HisMan’s approach because it just does not parallel Jesus’. It seems more American-macho than Christian. … ‘kill a Commie for Christ!’
Even though Jesus did have the power to destroy all the Roman armies + all those Jewish authorities that put Him to death, He did NOT… It is Old Testament thinking to ‘fear God’ …ie. scare people straight. Jesus died for us … He did not kill/threaten anyone for us.
We pay scant attention to the notion of innocence believing falsely that it is about virginity only. Then we condescendingly relegate innocence to equal niavite. Neither is correct! Follow Jesus who says …. “be not afraid”.
@Rae
There are purity balls for males they are called Integrity Balls.
I think that there are many many men who don’t (and haven’t) lived up to being a good father. However, I really think that our expectations of men are quite low. And feminism has had alot to do with that.
Instead of working to improve women’s rights by calling in men on their bad behaviours, virtually everything the women’s rights movement has done has had the opposite effect, to the detriment of women and children.
For example, instead of working towards helping husbands and fathers who have not done a good job within their families, feminists have pushed for divorce as a way for women to dump these men. This then helps perpetuate more men who will not be family oriented.
Instead of calling on men to be responsible for their actions when impregnanting a woman, they offer them no chance to redeem themselves, take away any say they have in the life they’ve helped create and encourage on-demand abortion rights.
Instead of demanding that women be treated with respect, their idea has been to make women like men – from the workforce to the bedroom.
In a way, it’s like the feminists have set out to punish men, but have only ended up hurting women.
Okay, so I must admit I am a little confused here. On the one hand, we are saying abortion takes away a woman’s personal responsibility because they don’t have to deal with raising the baby, and that there is no culpability. And then on the other hand, when men are deadbeat dad’s, we blame society? I just don’t get that.
If this is not what people are trying to say, could you please clarify for me, because it just seems like you’re all trying to justify men being loser dad’s and then demonizing women because they don’t take personal responsibility for the baby when they have an abortion. It seems in one case we hold the person responsible, and in the other, we hold society responsible.
But if that’s not what you’re all trying to say, let me know..cause that’s how I interpreted it.
Great comments here today!
I agree on the importance of fathers. The value of a good father cannot be overemphasized. The women’s liberation movement helped diminish the dignity of men. Hopefully women have learned something in the last 40 years. Women need to respect men to bring out the best in them. Men need to love women no matter how difficult it is.
Oh, Patricia…I should have refreshed my screen! You’ve said it better than I have, as usual. :)
Carla:
I’m glad you saw the satire in that post regarding the gun and knife collectioon. It was fun writing that. I don’t think my daughter’s boyfriend ever saw the collection although it does exist. Calm down John. I did ask him a few questions though.
I am glad Kel found her true Dad, God Almighty. I mean all earthly dads are at best shadows of our Heavenly Father. Kel, I suggest you read some of Joyce Meyer’s books. It doesn’t sound like your dad sexually abused you, however, abuse can take many forms including abandonment and detachment. And I also think not teaching your daughter about God is a form of gross abuse, probably the worse kind. Ms. Meyer’s dad sexually abused her for years and then they reconciled. Only God could do that.
While I never have thought of my daughter as property, I knew from my study of the Bible that God placed an unimaginable trust in me to raise his daughter so that she would be pure and undefiled. I did that. How? By knowing Him, His Word, by prayer and by standing firm as the captain of a ship sailing through stormy seas while being attacked by this fad, that fad, the discipline flavor of the month, pop-psychology, Oprah Winfrey, political correctness, etc. It takes a real man to raise a godly daughter.
As far as my boys (and daughter) are concerned. I taught them integrity through sports. They were all superb athletes playing football, wrestling, track, baseball, basketball and soccer. I coached, I went to practice, I never missed a game or meet. I have a 12 year old that will far exceeed all of them. My daughter was a track star and state champion sprinter and long jumper. She fell in love with cheerleading and was a four time state champion cheer leader, placing in the top 10 nationally. She has taken that determination into colllege and is on fire for Jesus Christ. I am very, very proud of her.
Elizabeth:
It’s both society’s problem as well as a personal problem.
Abortion is offered as a solution to unwanted pregnancies. It’s not. When two people have sex, a baby might result. In days gone by, the couple would discuss this and the man would have said, “well, if you get pregnant, I’ll marry you.” Even if there was no discussion, there was an understanding or expectation that this would happen. It was both a societal understanding and a personal one.
Now it didn’t always happen that way, but often it did. It didn’t mean the marriages were going to be good but often the couples learned to live together and the children grew up as functioning adults.
However, today, why bother. Either the woman keeps the baby and the man gets off to repeat the pattern again (so how does this make him a more mature responsible adult?) or she has an abortion whether he likes it or not (once again, how does this help make him a better man).
The solutions presented by feminists to the “woman problem” that 19th century authors wrote about so much in literature have been deadly.
Isn’t it ironic that abortion has been touted as THE women’s right yet it’s been turned back on us women in a way we never expected, and we’ve seen millions upon millions (I’m starting to sound like Carl Sagan here !!) of our sisters aborted and therefore “missing” throughout the world. Is that a good solution, in your mind?
I would love to continue this but I have to go to work this afternoon and evening. God bless.
I think I understand.
I just don’t blame society for my daughter’s father being a loser. I blame him. Well, I blame him and his mother, because she told him to run basically. Like he was this great catch who I wanted to tie down or something. Yeah, right.
I think you’re trying to say that abortion has diminished the important role a father plays in the whole process? If that’s what you’re trying to say I would definitely agree. But I don’t really apply that to my situation since I didn’t have an abortion, and gave him opportunity after opportunity to be there. Then I decided to stop banging my head against a brick wall and just do what was best for me and her.
Liz:
There are two indisputable facts here:
1. Society via the women’s movement has gotten away with devaluing ALL men which has been extremely destructive, mostly to children, i.e., legalized abortion. Don’t forget that the women’s movement has never been about women’s rights, it has always been about political power and Hillary Clinton is it’s poster child. Disrespect a man and watch the destruction.
2. Men should be held accountable for their children. (I guess we agree there).
However, your post and reaction are proof of fact 1. Just demonize the pig and make EVERYTHING his fault. It’s my right. I hold no responsibility for the situation. Every man is wrong, every time, and a woman is never wrong, why because it’s her right to be right even though she may be wrong. It’s the victim mentality. Elizabeth, if you didn’t love your husband unconditionally even when he was being a jerkm don’t complain.
I remember about 20 years ago, when my oldest niece got married, how she was hell bent on having a career and also having kids. I told her that if she wanted to insure that her kids were raised with her values not to shove them off to day care and try to follow the NOW myth. Well, her mom, my sister-in-law, who demonized my oldest bother to his kids, and was a rabid feminist tried the same with me painting me as a male chauvanist, etc. Well I never relented. My niece decided to raise the kid herself at home and now she has two of the most wonderful kids parents could want. She always thank her uncle for standing firm. The point is, either the mom or the dad should stay home with the kids and not shuffle them off to someone who has neither the God-given mandate to raise them. Parents raise your own kids and do whatever it takes to do that.
Contrary to Clinton’s lie, “It takes a village”, no Hillary, it takes god-fearing parents.
Patricia:
Isn’t it sad that worldwide legalized abortion has killed nearly 500,000,000 women worldwide? And this in the name of women’s rights. Who can understand this? The women’s movement killed it’s own sisters.
Again, feminists bought into the lie that men were their enemies and not their compliments. Rather than trying to understand men they tried to overpower them. Look at all the detruction that has resulted. Abortion, homosexuality, atheism, promotion of evolution, perversion of marriage, all products of a satan inspired hate-fest and he laughs at our complicity. Has anyone ever read Edyt’s posts – the very sad and tragic product of this mentality? She’s so lost she doesn’t even know that she’s lost. Congratulations NOW and Ms. Steinem. And I’ve got news for you, there’s a bigger surprise waiting for you on the other side.
What’s the solution? Gender reconciliation. Women, we are not your enemies, stop treating us as such. Men were made to die for woman, or haven’t you noticed? However, we won’t die for women that don’t respect us.
Elizabeth said: 10:36: Okay, so I must admit I am a little confused here. On the one hand, we are saying abortion takes away a woman’s personal responsibility because they don’t have to deal with raising the baby, and that there is no culpability. And then on the other hand, when men are deadbeat dad’s, we blame society? I just don’t get that.
If this is not what people are trying to say, could you please clarify for me, because it just seems like you’re all trying to justify men being loser dad’s and then demonizing women because they don’t take personal responsibility for the baby when they have an abortion. It seems in one case we hold the person responsible, and in the other, we hold society responsible.
But if that’s not what you’re all trying to say, let me know..cause that’s how I interpreted it.
Elizabeth,
I’m confused by your question as it relates to this thread. (Maybe I need a break.) Especially the part about demonizing women and justifying loser Dads.
My stomach turns at the mention of purity ball. But, even the father-daughter dances make me queasy these days. There is nothing wrong with the ball or the simple dances, and it should be seen as GOOD for a daughter to have a strong relationship with her father. The problem is contextual, and is with the world we live in, a world where we know that some of these girls will be abused by having placed their trust in someone they should have been able to trust.
The image of innocent girls in fluffy virginal white as they twirl around the dance floor in the arms of someone who may not be trustworthy will cause an inner scream in some of us. Maybe instead of Purity Balls focused on the chastity of little girls, we should have purity sessions where fathers and husbands promise to avoid pornography and infidelity. First things first, after all. Otherwise we could be feeding lambs to wolves.
joanne,
The image of innocent girls in fluffy virginal white as they twirl around the dance floor in the arms of someone who may not be trustworthy will cause an inner scream in some of us.
No one says a child has to go to this ball. If I had a daughter that felt that uncomfortable with her father that she got queasy, I’d find out why, really fast! I’d get her some counseling, and watch her father like a hawk.
HisMan,
I’ve never been married..I’m a single mom..he’s a loser. Trust me.
And my post was proof of nothing. I just don’t see how we can blame society when men screw up and then blame women when women screw up. That just doesn’t make sense to me. THAT’S what I was pointing out. I never said “demonize the pig.” Those were your words, not mine. I didn’t have to demonize my daughter’s father at all, he did that enough ON HIS OWN without any help from me. Although I guess maybe I misinterpreted his running off to Florida for 7 months of my pregancy. Silly me. OR maybe I also misinterpreted what he meant when he threw a shoe at me when I was pregnant. Silly me..if only I had just “loved him unconditionally.”
Patricia explained it where I actually got what she was saying, she said it’s a societal and personal issue. I get that.
Your’s…not so much.
Wow. With all the anti-feminist sentiment here, you’d think women weren’t people!
Feminists are not trying to emasculate men. Unless you consider taking away men’s rights to beat their wives and demand sex from her or make all the decisions for her life “emasculating.”
The sad truth is that men fought back against women in the workplace, forcing women to work harder, rather than accepting them and being considerate of women’s needs. In order to keep women from becoming successful, men and anti-feminists have worked to make that pathway to equality that much harder for women.
Feminists never wanted to dominate over men. That’s a stupid, silly little myth perpetrated by men who were afraid of losing their own dominance over women. Instead, we just wanted an equal seat at the table.
Feminists never wanted to take responsibility away from men. And guess what? They didn’t. Men have been deadbeat dads since before women got the right to vote. The only big difference to take into consideration now is that divorce is more widespread, allowing men to escape their wives and still see their children instead of running away without so much as a note.
(When I went to central America I met some women whose husbands had indeed run off, many to the U.S. and Europe, and you know what they did? The feminist thing! They got jobs and took care of their families, rather than sit around and wait for some guy to take care of them.)
Janet,
I was responding to something HisMan said about how society has forced men to be deadbeat dad’s or something like that..not on the original topic, but I just read his comment and responded to it. Sorry for the confusion!
@Adlyn: Oh really? Huh- so why is it that we focus on “integrity” for boys and “purity” for girls? Why is a girl’s virginity/purity emphasized but a boy just has to have integrity (which may or may not include chastity).
Hey, Rae. :waves:
Rae – Sexual integrity is sort of a subset of chastity. It does include virginity, however chastity has taken on a feminine connotation that most guys are uncomfortable with.
I think it’s okay – in fact it’s admirable to ‘chasten’ one’s self, that is to practice chastity. That’s for men or women.
Feminists are not trying to emasculate men. Unless you consider taking away men’s rights to beat their wives and demand sex from her or make all the decisions for her life “emasculating.”
Edyt – Roe vs Wade was a Lorena Bobbitt tactic against men. That’s pretty graphic, but very apropos.
Edyt said Instead, we just wanted an equal seat at the table.
Ever see a coin land on it’s side?
In a union of two, who gets final say?
Show me a company with a 50/50 split and I’ll show you some very naive business owners who haven’t thought every thing through.
Interestingly, the state requires male responsibility when it’s in their interest. They are fully aware of the 51-49 balance, and do much to promote it, when it is advantageous to do so.
Edyt,
you and HisMan work from the same page! The page is called power/strength/etc. In fact it is Americana-macho … fundamental b.s.!
the ‘way’ of Jesus is that of vulnerability. In trying to be ‘cool’, feminists have become ‘cold’/rock-ice/hard and have lost their humanity … their vulnerability.
When someone like Laura posts a picture like the starving-child and the vulture-waiting-for-lunch, our very first reaction is joy… that this is NOT me. In the same way I can remain aloof from killing-my-child via abortion. My detachment kills!
John McD, 12:32 p.m.
Good post!
Thanks, everyone, for your kind words regarding my post. God bless you all.
Edyt, I wanted to address your latest post: I was raised by my mother alone, and she had no choice but to work and put me in daycare. I was a latchkey kid, we lived in an apartment, we didn’t have much, I didn’t get designer clothes (I didn’t like them anyway :D ), we ate hot dogs and scrambled eggs for dinner (no steaks!), and you know what?
I never felt deprived. Not once. Because I was loved.
The child support from my dad was $25 per week. It never increased. Crazy, isn’t it? This, from a man who owned horses and stables and a lot of land. And a few times, he tried to claim me on his tax returns. (Apparently, I was just a tax write-off to him.) Ah, well, he had his priorities, you know. ;)
My mom is a very strong woman who never “needed” a man to take care of her. I am not anti-feminist. I think the term “feminist” has been altered so many times that people aren’t even sure of what it means anymore.
My mother remarried at the age of 50 because she found someone who loved her for who she was, not because she “needed” a man to provide for her. That’s not even what marriage is about–we shouldn’t be marrying anyone for a meal ticket. That’s just ridiculous.
When my mom found out she was pregnant with me, she had just discovered my dad’s infidelity. (She thought her nausea was due to her emotional distress, not pregnancy. They had been trying for years to get pregnant with no success.) I asked her, “Mom, knowing you were getting a divorce, did you ever consider that you couldn’t carry his child because of what he did to you?”
She looked at me, stunned. “You were MY BABY,” she said. “I would never have even considered that.” (And yes, it was perfectly legal by then.)
I thank God that my mom didn’t choose what many feminists of today choose–abortion. The feminist movement should NEVER EVER be built on the backs of our dead children.
My mother proved that you CAN be a single mom without a college education, get a decent job through hard work and determination, without succumbing to the “victim” mentality. You can do it without welfare or food stamps. You can do it ALL!! WITHOUT killing your pre-born children.
SHE is a true feminist!
Regarding HisMan’s comment…I agree. This shouldn’t BE about “women vs. men.” Men are not our enemies. Not all men are bad or leave their families like my dad did. Not all men are deadbeats–but those types just ruin it for the rest of the men who are trying to be good fathers and husbands.
The feminist movement should NEVER EVER be built on the backs of our dead children.
Amen.
Edyt: 12:00
The tone of your post in anti-man. The idea that “I don’t need a man” is disrespectful to men. Respecting men can go hand in hand with respecting women as they aren’t mutually exclusive.
John McD: You said it all.
Feminism – “the female version of machismo”.
Kel:12:48: Your Mom is my new hero. How lucky you are!
Kel:
You and your mom are simply amazing people. I salute you and your mom.
She didn’t lose her faith and succumb to hatred, vengeance, a power trip and the victim mentality of feminism which always requires a scapegoat, all men. Feminism is disgusting to our Lord because it pits women against men, when in His eyes, we are all equal.
Feminism is a tool of the devil designed to trap women into a state of vitimization, hatred, and bigotry when the Lord’s way is freedom from all that. And where does feminism lead? Again, abortion, death, perversion, godlessness. Satan is not stupid.
Sounds like your mom reaped what she sowed, love and devotion. She is a free person, the way she was created to be. It wasn’t easy or fair, but neither was the cross and he calls us all to bear one.
You both will feast at the table of our Lord.
Edyt has no desire to sit at the table in equality, she wants to dictate the agenda and a godless one at that. More destruction.
You’re right, HisMan. All I want is to be back at home waiting for my boyfriend’s instructions. If I write a book, I want it published with a man’s name, since we all know women can’t write books. I don’t want the right to vote. I don’t want to get equal pay for equal work, since men deserve to get paid more regardless of the job! I don’t want women to speak in Church or have roles in leadership positions. Women should absolutely not be able to decide how many children they have. That should be determined by her husband, like all other decisions. If a woman misbehaves, her husband should be allowed to beat her with a rod no wider than his thumb. Women should not be allowed to go to school, since they’re mentally inferior to men and that might distract them from their real duties at home. Women should be shamed and sent away if they get pregnant and don’t marry the father. Women shouldn’t express any of their artistic talents, unless those talents are sewing, knitting, and decorating the house. Women shouldn’t have access to money, since they are horrible at math. Women should know they can’t accomplish everything they set out to do, unless that goal is having kids! Women should not have sex for pleasure, and she should only have sex when her husband wishes it of her.
While we’re at it, men shouldn’t be allowed to cry or express their feelings. They should just be sex-driven automatons without emotion. Men should always pay for everything. Men should never do women’s work, because that’s embarrassing. Men should be allowed to say nasty things about women; since women are naturally inferior anyway.
HisMan, I am sooo sooo sorry for trying to usurp your authority over me. Now that I know my place I will humbly submit to whatever you wish of me.
John:
I am not ashamed of my masculinity. My masculinity is based on Christ-likeness.
It’s based on sacrificing my life for others, my wife first, my family, the church, the world, in that order. It’s using every masculine talent I have to that end and I am not ashamed of that nor do I apologize to you or anyone else for that.
It involves losing my life for others. If that means speaking the truth fearlessely and without fear of being ridiculed by the feminists or pro-aborts of the world, so be it.
It means defending the innocent, babies in the womb and the fatherless and standing up to the men wimps who don’t fulfill their duties as men.
Please don’t ever compare me to Edyt. Light has no fellowship with darkness.
Edyt:
You haven’t got a clue.
You’re right. I have no grasp on history whatsoever. I made up all that stuff. I guess feminists haven’t really been fighting for anything at all! How silly.
Edyt:
Have at it. I’m not stopping you nor care to stop you. You craft your own destuction.
I just know where your views will take you and you haven’t got a clue.
That’s right. Believing women are people too will lead me straight to hell.
LizfromNebraska: “I think mothers should teach their sons to respect women.”
Too gender-specific. We really need to stop treating boys and girls as though they’re from two different species. HUMAN BEINGS should be respecting other HUMAN BEINGS, no matter what genitalia any of them may possess.
Chris Arsenault: “Doesn’t really work – guys need respect more than love. Women need love more than respect.”
More gender-specific nonsense. Boys and girls need equal parts of love and respect.
John McDonnell: “Strange that anti-Christians are never comfortable with Jesus The Innocent One.”
John, this has nothing to do with being for or against virginity. It has to do with telling GIRLS to remain virgins while telling BOYS to go out and “enjoy themselves.”
HisMan: “[misandrist colloquial reference to male genitals deleted]…he would raise his daughter by being able to say no and stick to it and hold firm to his own faith in Jesus Christ.”
What do you mean, “say no”? Are you harboring the popular misconception that every time a boy and girl have sex it’s because he “pressured” her over and over again until she finally “gave in”? Do you not understand that it’s often the GIRL who initiates sex, and NOT because she wants the boy to like her, but rather because she LIKES SEX?
bmmg39,
I agree…all this men vs. women bull-hockey makes my brain hurt. Kind of like the black vs. white stuff. We’re all human beings and deserve equal amounts of respect because we are ALL human beings.
More gender-specific nonsense. Boys and girls need equal parts of love and respect.
Boys will suffer more if there is a lack of respect than a lack of “love”. Nothing tears a man down more quickly than disrespect from a woman, IMO.
Yes, Elizabeth. And I get really tired of people perpetuating the myth that “girls/women have sex just so they can receive love in return, but boys/men only show love so they can receive sex in return.” I’m male and 35 years old, and, like some of the other people here, I’m simply not that interested in sex and I never have been. I’m FAR more interested in both giving AND receiving love, and I’d really like it for horny men and boys to stop trying to speak for our entire gender. If I somehow fail to “put the moves on” or take advantage of a “hot chick,” it’s not because I “respect” her (though I do have respect for people); it’s because I respect MYSELF.
According to the U.N.:
* Violence against women is the most common but least punished crime in the world.
* It is estimated that between 113 million and 200 million women are demographically
Edyt:
Your assinine lingual projections are amazing. You, a pro-abort and atheist, tries to tell me that I don’t care about people, all people. You are a fine upstanding graduate of the Feminist Pro-abort School of Language Twisting.
You don’t care about people Edyt, you care about yourself.
Bmmg39:
Saying no means being able to be a parent who says no when the world tells a parent to say yes to everything.
Don’t you dare misconstrue my words.
And yes, whether or not you have the ability to understand this, there are big differences between boys and girls.
“Boys will suffer more if there is a lack of respect than a lack of ‘love’. Nothing tears a man down more quickly than disrespect from a woman, IMO.”
Janet, I simply have no idea where you’re coming from on this at all. I’m trying to imagine a man hearing his wife say, “Roger, I still respect you as a man, but I no longer love you,” and thinking, “Okay, I’m still coming out ahead in the game…”
HisMan,
Nobody denies that there are differences between boys and girls. But dictating whether those differences make one gender better than the other is wrong. Those differences do not make men better than women and vice versa. I think that is what bmmg39 was saying.
By wanting to end violence against women – raising them to the same level as men – I’m emasculating men.
Know what? I don’t care. If masculinity = violence, then you deserve to have it taken away from you.
Posted by: Edyt at May 21, 2008 2:13 PM
We aren’t talking about violent men. We are talking about normal men. You are the one saying masculinity equals violence. Just shows your anti- male bias.
Every time I bring up feminism, the biggest complaint I hear is “Oh nooess, the poor menz will be emasuclated!”
A sad comparison for centuries of oppression and violence against women.
P.S. Boys are different from girls. Yes.
Boys raised with girls are different than boys raised around boys.
Girls raised around boys (me) are different from girls raised around girls.
Only children are different than siblings.
Boys without fathers/mothers are different than boys with fathers/mothers.
Girls without fathers/mothers are different than girls with fathers/mothers.
Simply put – everyone’s different. Stereotyping boys and girls does nothing to promote respect and love, while identifying boys and girls as equal persons DOES promote love and respect.
“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” If you don’t consider women “others” you’re less inclined to treat them as you would like to be treated.
“Saying no means being able to be a parent who says no when the world tells a parent to say yes to everything.”
I’m okay with saying “no” to a child who wants something. I wasn’t sure if you were talking about a girl saying “no” to boys. If that’s not the case, then okay.
“Don’t you dare misconstrue my words.”
I was asking you questions, not putting words into your mouth.
“And yes, whether or not you have the ability to understand this, there are big differences between boys and girls.
Okay! I can use that old tactic, too! “Whether or not you have the ability to understand this, boys and girls are quite similar.” See how that shuts off conversation, HM?
Again, we need to get off this kick we have that boys are all horny devils (many are clearly not), while girls are all sugar and spice and everything nice.
Edyt, I’d love to end violence against pre-born women as well.
Women perpetuate violence against their own daughters when they choose to eliminate them and their futures through elective abortion in order to serve themselves or make their lives a little easier.
More than half of all abortions (coerced and elective) are performed on female pre-born children. China, anyone?
Kel,
I’d like to see people choosing not to have abortions as well. However, the problem of gender-specific abortion is not caused by abortion itself. It is caused by misogyny and the notion that women are worth less than men.
Even in countries where abortion is illegal, vast numbers of female infants are left to die or purposefully killed, while male infants are fed more. You can’t stop misogyny by outlawing abortion.
We aren’t talking about violent men. We are talking about normal men. You are the one saying masculinity equals violence. Just shows your anti- male bias.
Then what is masculinity, Janet?
And I don’t have a bias against men. I do have a bias against men who believe women are meant to be submissive to them.
“You can’t stop misogyny by outlawing abortion. ”
No, Edyt, but by legalizing abortion, we are lending approval to misogyny. Among other things.
What were we doing to approve of misogyny before abortion was legalized?
“And I don’t have a bias against men. I do have a bias against men who believe women are meant to be submissive to them. ”
And let me just say this: I can see why you feel the way you do, Edyt. Because there are far too many men out there who have been taught that a wife is a possession and must obey and submit (through force). This is not what the Bible teaches…it has been twisted by many with evil intent so that they can abuse their wives, as you mentioned previously.
The Bible also says that the husband should love the wife and GIVE HIMSELF UP for her. He should love her as Christ loved the church. And I’m sorry to say, that hasn’t been reflected well through history. :(
This is why so many women are angry. This is why we have the feminist movement. At its roots, the feminist movement was wonderful…but I feel we’ve gotten very off-track today by insisting that we can kill our own children in order to not allow men to oppress us.
Kel, 2:45 p.m.
Very good points!
“Boys will suffer more if there is a lack of respect than a lack of ‘love’. Nothing tears a man down more quickly than disrespect from a woman, IMO.”
Janet, I simply have no idea where you’re coming from on this at all. I’m trying to imagine a man hearing his wife say, “Roger, I still respect you as a man, but I no longer love you,” and thinking, “Okay, I’m still coming out ahead in the game…”
Posted by: bmmg39 at May 21, 2008 2:17 PM
Of course there has to be both love and respect, I’m not denying that. I’m saying love isn’t enough without respect too. Respect is critical. It’s an ego thing (men, correct me if I’m wrong).
Then what is masculinity, Janet?
Let’s just say it isn’t violence or dominance.
Elizabeth:
Never once have I ever said that women were less than men. If anything, to me in my way, just the opposite is true. I tend to favor women over men but not women that want to shove my face in it.
I got along better with my sisters than my brothers. I was closer to my mom than my dad. I am closer to my daughter than to any of my four sons although I love them all dearly.
Not one of my sisters are feminists, and none have had to resort to the tactics that feminists have had to resort to to express their womanhood. They have families and husbands that love them, they believe in God, they have careers, but they have never blamed men for the circumstance they found themselves in, good or bad.
This is why I absolutely hate feminism and what it has done to women…..and men. It has actually been very destructive. Men are more irresponsible than ever and woman are now killing their children in the womb thinking this is OK. This is the perversion that feminism is.
Besides, one of the most abused women in recorded history, Mary Magdelene, found freedom, equality and her destiny in God, who happened to be a man, Jesus Christ.
This is why Edyt will never experience real freedom, real equality, real choice, her real destiny, because by her own words she rejects Christ and that will never change until she changes. This is why I stand firmly against all that she believes and writes, because I don’t want her to lead others away from Him.
What do you mean, “say no”? Are you harboring the popular misconception that every time a boy and girl have sex it’s because he “pressured” her over and over again until she finally “gave in”? Do you not understand that it’s often the GIRL who initiates sex, and NOT because she wants the boy to like her, but rather because she LIKES SEX?
it’s because I respect MYSELF.
BINGO !!!!!
Janet,
Don’t women need respect too?
Wikipedia has a couple interesting entries regarding femininity and masculinity. I’d go check them out. Really makes you think. ;)
From the masculinity post:
Janet Saltzman Chafetz (1974, 35-36) describes seven areas of masculinity.
1. Physical
Hi HisMan,
John:
I am not ashamed of my masculinity. My masculinity is based on Christ-likeness.
It’s based on sacrificing my life for others, my wife first, my family, the church, the world, in that order. It’s using every masculine talent I have to that end and I am not ashamed of that nor do I apologize to you or anyone else for that.
It involves losing my life for others. If that means speaking the truth fearlessely and without fear of being ridiculed by the feminists or pro-aborts of the world, so be it.
It means defending the innocent, babies in the womb and the fatherless and standing up to the men wimps who don’t fulfill their duties as men.
Please don’t ever compare me to Edyt. Light has no fellowship with darkness.
Posted by: HisMan at May 21, 2008 1:37 PM
———–
There are tons of problems with these assumptions:
I do not think shame of any sort … (even the vapid silliness of Edyt) has the ‘light’ to show anything but vindictiveness. You do not comprehend …. God creates uniquely never equally. He did not create any species. He created: Adam; Eve; Marykay; Jill; you; me; Doug … all singular beings called to be one in Him. By comparing these creations, His children have come up with ‘all men are created equal: this is not in scripture but in the US Constitution’s pre-amble. Try to reason ‘why’ it is NOT there … and that this is very good news.
The word itself (ie, ‘equal’) is a put-down. A ‘wimp’ are you, if you call others (all equals) ‘wimps’. No more we are ‘equal’, we are singularly and uniquely responsible to live human lives.
bmmg39 – are you a secular humanist?
I’m a secular human, does that count?
John McD, 3:06 p.m.
Good points again!
Good Lord Edyt,
You really sound like you have a chip on your shoulder.
Stop think men and women and think testosterone/estrogen. You might get a better idea of the differences.
The strongest man will always be stronger (physically) than the strongest woman.
While there ARE exceptions, I do think that women tend to talk more, communicate better and be less concerned with protecting their loved ones than with nurturing them.
This is not to say that women can’t protect, or men can’t nurture.
Heck, even words have feminine/masculine connotations.
To me it’s not so much that the feminist movement wants to emascualte men, as they want women to become men.
Look how defensive you get when we name things that are traditionally considered feminine.
I’m quite happy to be a woman, to be considered softer, mushier, sweeter. I can’t also be blunt, cutting and strong…I’m not a doormat…just ask Rae…but I AM A WOMAN.
And I don’t want to be a man.
And I don’t want men to be women.
John,
You have a point. We cannot say that ALL women are…or ALL men are…
But there are differences (as Rae pointed out) between all people, and sometimes between groups of people.
When I embrace my womanhood, it is not to Lord it over anyone, nor to feel inferior to anyone. It is to say, This is who I am, and I like it.
I don’t need to be someone else, or change it, or hide it, or deny it…but rather embrace it.
I have brown eyes. Isn’t that great? I have a Low voice…cool, huh? I can carry a tune…I like that about me.
If I had blue eyes, I’d like that too. Or if I could dance instead of sing.
The point is, I don’t focus on the differences, but on the uniqueness and one of the things that makes me unique is that I am female. halleluia!
And I recognize that my husband is not me. He is he. And he is a man. Which means he is manlike. But he is still unique man.
It is possible to recognize that we have similarities/tendencies and not lose our individuality. No?
Psalm 2
1 Why do the nations conspire
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the LORD
and against his Anointed One.
3 “Let us break their chains,” they say,
“and throw off their fetters.”
4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
the Lord scoffs at them.
5 Then he rebukes them in his anger
and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
6 “I have installed my King
on Zion, my holy hill.”
7 I will proclaim the decree of the LORD:
He said to me, “You are my Son ;
today I have become your Father.
8 Ask of me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You will rule them with an iron scepter ;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”
10 Therefore, you kings, be wise;
be warned, you rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear
and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry
and you be destroyed in your way,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
To me it’s not so much that the feminist movement wants to emascualte men, as they want women to become men.
This is an interesting idea to ponder, MK.
I can’t imagine I’d ever want to be a man…I like being a woman too much.
I mean, let’s face it, without women, the world would fall apart. :)
Janet,
Don’t women need respect too?
Wikipedia has a couple interesting entries regarding femininity and masculinity. I’d go check them out. Really makes you think. ;)
From the masculinity post:
Janet Saltzman Chafetz (1974, 35-36) describes seven areas of masculinity.
1. Physical
I mean, let’s face it, without women, the world would fall apart. :)
Posted by: Elizabeth at May 21, 2008 3:45 PM
My Dad used to tell me that all the time when I was growing up and I’ve never forgotten it. He respected women.
I used to go with my Dad when he went to donate blood at the hospital. I would sit next to him and the nurses would let me put his band aid on after. Then we would walk around the hospital and look at the helicopter or the new babies in the nursery. It was a fun bonding time.
“To me it’s not so much that the feminist movement wants to emascualte men, as they want women to become men.”
Well feminism is women who want to be treated as human beings, just like men. Not just someone to have babies and clean floors. For example, I would have to say our own Jill is a feminist. She has opinions and expresses (some of) them clearly and logically. So don’t most of the women here. We have brains. We think. Take us seriously that’s all we’re asking.
When I was around three or four I remember asking my Mom where babies came from. She told me the truth. I cried for like a week.
Jill’s no feminist.
She’s a real woman.
What is your definition of a “real woman” HisMan?
A “real woman” is a woman who knows, loves and serves God and seeks His will and destiny for her life.
By the way, the same definition applies to a “real man”.
@MK: Heh, sometimes I wish I were a guy…
But I agree- there are physical and some *emotional* differences between men and women (which *possibly* could be due to socialization during childhood)….but mentally both men and women are capable of doing the same things.
And feminists can’t possibly know, love, and serve God because?
@Elizabeth: Because feminists are all atheist, lesbian, “pro-aborts”. Duh.
What about the Feminists for Life?
Rae: :hits self in head with hand: OF COURSE! I totally forgot about that.
For shame Elizabeth- for shame.
:bows head and goes to sit in the corner:
No Elizabeth- you go kneel on uncooked rice (no sitting back on your heels) and pray to God for forgiveness!
Kel: “At its roots, the feminist movement was wonderful…but I feel we’ve gotten very off-track today by insisting that we can kill our own children in order to not allow men to oppress us.”
That’s a beautiful sentence.
Janet: “Of course there has to be both love AND respect, I’m not denying that. I’m saying love isn’t enough without respect too. Respect is critical. It’s an ego thing (men, correct me if I’m wrong).”
There should be love and respect, yes. And this is true for both men and women. I can’t imagine any man or woman not wanting to receive both. And I don’t think it’s right to dismiss it as “an ego thing,” assuming you mean that pejoratively.
Chris: “bmmg39 – are you a secular humanist?”
Gosh, Chris, I dunno. I’m a bit of an agnostic, but that doesn’t mean I’m antagonistic towards people who have a very strong faith in God(s), or towards those who don’t believe in God(s) at all. But I do get tired of people falling back on “it’s just the way God made us” when they’re trying to defend their “men are from Mars/women are from Venus” ideology. It’s like people saying, “Hey — that’s just the way I was raised,” meaning in order to go on disagreeing with them you’re really defaming their parents. It’s drawing a line in the sand: “Ha! I’m using God in my argument! I dare you to disagree with me (and God) now!”
I take offense to that, HisMan. I believe that since God wants only the best for His daughters and equal treatment for them under the law, the original intent of feminism can still easily fall within Christian principles. Original grassroots feminists were not interested in crushing men underfoot. They were concerned with attaining equal legal status to men. I have no interest in demonizing men (in fact, I share a wonderful bond with my amazing dad, because I am truly “Daddy’s little girl”). I love, love, love men. I love my boyfriend. I love my brother. I love my uncles and male cousins. I want nothing but the best for them and all the opportunities that life and God can afford. I just want women to have the same opportunities as well…equal pay, equal legal status, equal job opportunities. I want men to retain every privilege they have right now….but also to extend the same privileges to women. I can say that I am a feminist in the sense that I believe society must raise its standards in its treatment of women, not trample over men’s dignity in the process. Men are not pigs or lowly beasts. They are humans, just like women, and all should be afforded the same respect in our society, and the same protections and dignity.
What some people don’t realize is that Roe v. Wade isn’t just a document that protects medical privacy for the procuring of abortions (which is the part that is obviously at issue). When it was passed, it also guaranteed that women would not have to receive the permission of their husbands to get a prescription for birth control or have a sterilization procedure performed. Women were able to undergo medical procedures without the permission of their husbands. Men, at the time, could get vasectomies without permission of their wives (and all other medical procedures). Roe v. Wade gave women the same legal status (under the clause of “privacy”). The problem here, of course, would be the portion that allows for abortions. Roe v. Wade, in and of itself, actually was a step in the right direction to allow women some control back into their lives, even though it was done for the wrong purposes (abortion in this case). For the reasons outlined above, overturning Roe v Wade probably isnt the best course of action. A human life amendment would probably be more efficient, allowing for the parts of Roe v. Wade that don’t include abortion to be maintained, while also prohibiting abortion (through the amendment itself). This way, women would still be free to exercise medical decisions without necessary legal approval from husbands, and abortion would be illegal. It would be a win-win.
mk: “While there ARE exceptions, I do think that women tend to talk more, communicate better and be less concerned with protecting their loved ones than with nurturing them…This is not to say that women can’t protect, or men can’t nurture.”
That would be more of, as you say, a tendency, than an overall truth (“men are _____ while women are _______”).
“To me it’s not so much that the feminist movement wants to emascualte men, as they want women to become men…I don’t want to be a man…And I don’t want men to be women.”
The only way a woman can be a man or a man be a woman is with a sex-change operation. While I’m not accusing you (mk) of doing this, I see that a lot from the “gender differences” crowd. When presented with conflicting evidence, they simply disbelieve the proof. If a man cries, writes poetry, and talks about his feelings, this goes against the stereotype that men (or “real men”) are stoic and should internalize everything, and so they’ll either call him “not a real man” or dismiss him by saying he’s “trying to be a woman.” Likewise, if a woman likes to play sports, wear sweats instead of dresses, and work in construction, she’ll be challenging a stereotype, and so the “gd” crowd will either say “she’s not a real woman” or accuse her of “trying to be a man.”
It’s also true with untoward behavior. More women like to act in a raunchy or promiscuous way than was the case before. (I’m trying not to sound judgmental here, but I’m not endorsing that behavior in men or women, either.) But that doesn’t mean they’re “acting like men;” it means they’re acting like, well, raunchy, promiscuous people. I object to someone referring to everything libertine as “male.”
HM: “A ‘real woman’ is a woman who knows, loves and serves God and seeks His will and destiny for her life. By the way, the same definition applies to a ‘real man’.”
Okay, so a “real woman” and a “real man” have the same definition. Cool.
Hi Jess and Rae,
“Well feminism is women who want to be treated as human beings, just like men. Not just someone to have babies and clean floors.”
you still don’t get it … a human being is one whose life is fulfilled by being who they are and not comparing their own reality to another sex or even another of the same sex. A woman (by being a mother) creates HER babies, HER family …. not just any ho-hum ‘babies’ They are very much her identity. Abortion proponent belittle this in favor of being popular and calling yourself a ‘feminist’ as if this was a badge of honor. Its crappy being a ‘victim’ but trying to escape the who that you are is … TRY LIVING FREE OF COMPARISON WITH ANYONE!
Rae,
How about I cook the rice and we have some stir-fry? lol.
That’s the whole point, John. We want women to be free to be who they WANT to be, we just want society to remove its boundaries and obstacles put up to hinder just that half of the population with XX chromosomes from reaching their full potential. It’s all about encouraging women (AND MEN!), to be who they want, without holding either back. If a woman wants to work her way to the top executive positions of a company, with all the perks such as salary and respect, she should be able to, without being held back because of her sex. We also want men to feel free to be stay at home dads, without fear of ridicule. It’s about encouraging all people to live their lives the way they dreamed. It’s not about comparison, but if you must look at it that way, comparatively, women are still somewhat hindered compared to men in the workplace, and men are still comparatively hindered to women in their role in the home. This should stop. The whole point of feminism (THE WAY I LOOK AT IT…I’M A DIFFERENT TYPE OF FEMINIST THAN WHAT MANY PEOPLE HERE THINK OF AS FEMINISTS) is to remove the considerably more obstacles facing women today, and put them on the same playing field as men when it comes to opportunities. They shouldn’t have to work harder than men to achieve the same goals. They should be able to stay home and raise children, work in construction or science, or be CEO’s of giant companies, without more obstacles than men face. Men should be able to stay home and raise children, work in construction or science, or be CEO’s of giant companies, without more obstacles than women face.
It’s about removing societal obstacles from women’s lives so that they DON’T HAVE TO compare themselves with men. They can just be who they are. No discrimination. Freedom.
Jess”When I was around three or four I remember asking my Mom where babies came from. She told me the truth. I cried for like a week.”
LOL!
Thanks Lyssie.
That’s what feminism is supposed to be about.
Not all feminists agree that abortion should be legal. (See: Feminists for Life) In fact, there are a good number of issues feminists disagree with (immigration, economics, who to vote for…). Most feminists however, are fighting oppression and violence (which often manifests in the form of sexual violence), and the notion that women are only worth their beauty or virginity.
Lots of feminists are trying to break down gender role stereotypes because they feel suffocated and held back from those roles. Without feminism, women today would still be nurses, not doctors. They’d be secretaries, not office managers. They’d be maids, not homeowners.
When people play these silly games and demonize feminists, they are essentially saying that women don’t deserve to be equal with men. That women don’t deserve to vote or receive equal pay or work in an environment where they are accepted, appreciated, and respected.
Feminists don’t hate men. If anything, they’re jealous of the opportunities men have without even having to work twice as hard to get there.
bmmg39: And I don’t think it’s right to dismiss it as “an ego thing,” assuming you mean that pejoratively.
I didn’t mean to be pejorative and I’m sorry if you took it that way.
There’s nothing wrong with a little ego in my book. From my experience with men, those whose ego is tarnished have less self- respect, more self-doubt.
Lyssie 7:54: It’s not about comparison, but if you must look at it that way, comparatively, women are still somewhat hindered compared to men in the workplace, and men are still comparatively hindered to women in their role in the home.
John is also saying it’s not about comparison. DON’T compare yourselves to others. Be yourself.
Without feminism, women today would still be nurses, not doctors.
Hayyyyy, There’s nothing wrong with being a nurse. I think they know more than the doctors most of the time!
@Lyssalie,
what you describe as freedom is an illusion even if many folks do share this same concept. It is in the same illusion field that says having more money means greater happiness – another fantasy!
As you probably know I am disabled: Can a disabled person be free … can a prison inmate be free? The answer to both is YES. To do so takes a mental-priorities shift.
Freedom (and happiness) lie in ‘who’ you are, not what you do … you describe folks in a company by their work/position. All that is ‘what they do’. … freedom is not here at all. So obtaining male (even CEO) perks brings no freedom. Mother Theresa felt most free when she was cleaning toilets… now, that is close.
“In the minds of radical feminists, men and women are engaged in one big power struggle. This notion originates from their Marxist heritage. Karl Marx, whose writings led to the disaster of communism, believed that society was dominated by a struggle between the bourgeoisie (owners of production) and the proletariat (workers). Although Marx says nothing about a struggle between men and women, the feminists adapted his revolutionary rhetoric to their own cause. Feminists believe that for women to win their struggle, they must have total control over child bearing and be able to kill their unborn babies on demand. Actually, there is no big power struggle between men and women. If an independent observer from Mars were to come to Earth to study the interactions between men and women, he would not find a state of ongoing war. He would not find roving bands of men forcing women to produce babies, they do not want. He would instead find that, in most cases, men and women get along very well together. The feminists have created this struggle myth to advance their political power. Unfortunately, they also created our American holocaust. ”
http://www.abortionessay.com/files/essay.html
John,
Saying freedom is all in the mind is not a rational excuse for limiting women from the same roles as men.
Elizabeth,
Nope, nothing wrong with being a nurse. Something’s wrong when she’s told she can’t become a doctor because she’s a woman though!
Jasper,
Anti-feminists created the power-struggle myth. There need be no struggle. A simple hand up to the same level would be sufficient. Continuing to shove someone down on the pyramid will, however, result in struggle. But remember, women are not trying to reach the top of the pyramid, merely the same level as the men.
*yawn* Jasper…
Liz:
What’s your definition of a feminist since it appears to have evolved since the 1970’s when most guys viewed these gals as mostly ugly and sexually frustrated women who couldn’t get a date and burned their bras. I was around back then were you?
Since that time, it appears that feminism has become more mainstream deceiving more normal women….like you, however, I contend that the power structure consists of mostly the 70’s type described above. They’ve really got most women finagled.
If you don’t believe me just go to a NOW or NARAL convention. It’s like wart and ugug city. And there just not ugly on the outside, it’s mostly their ugly spirits that defile them
Like abortion, feminism has never been about women’s rights but always, always about the lust for power.
If you want to see the underlying goal and mission of any organization just look at its fruit.
Feminism has resulted in the destruction of motherhood and placed a wedge between men and women. Abortion has murdered over a billion babies worldwide since 1973. Those are two things feminists can really hold their heads high for.
So who are the big losers from these two mass deceptions, well, there are two. First, the children and second, their mothers.
Call me old fashioned, I just call it the way it is.
My point is Feminism is really about hatred for men disguised as women’s rights. The same thread runs through the abortion lie. The leaders of these death cults can never say who they really are since they would lose most of their membership if they did.
If you really want to know why don’t you do some extensive research instead of rolling your eyes whenever I post the truth about these hags.
So how does a woman or a man find their destiny? In the person of Christ, not in a hate driven movement.
Removing obstacles does little if you can’t empower someone to reach that goal. ;)
The Feminist movement of my generation is very different from that of my elders. Second Wave Feminism was so concerned with “equality,” with workplace rights and what have you. There was actual organization with surprising results.
This is the Third Wave now, hardly “bra-burning” or seeking the kind of “equality” it did before.
If women, especially younger ones, seem selfish and scatter-brained, it’s because this movement centers on the concept of the individual. It’s about eschewing labels, categories, generalizations. It’s concerned with cultural influence, especially the media. It’s all over the place right now.
Naturally, women of this generation are having trouble organizing and actually making an impact in the political arena. The political drive just isn’t there as it was before. We take the milestones and setbacks of the past for granted. It’s troubling because we have all these injustices (some real, some perceived) and no understanding of how to maturely voice our concerns.
Well…anywho. Just thought I’d clarify, since people tend to lump the two movements together. They’re actually pretty critical of one another. (Just look at the second-wavers who refuse to vote for Obama.)
I don’t lust for power, thankfully. I know that legally speaking the opportunities are there for me. I just want to know that when I reach for them, society will kindly wish me well and let me be the best I can be. I’ll give it my all in return. I promise.
Women can and should be doctors. But they would be “female doctors.
How many of you have a preference for which doctor you prefer? Dentists? Whatever. Gynies? We usually prefer one over the other. Some prefer men gynies. Some women. Because there are differences.
Yes women are just as smart as men. But the route that their thought takes is different. We just think differently. Not less, not more, just differently.
The Differences Between Men and Women
Relationships:
First of all, a man does not call a relationship a relationship – he refers to it as “that time when me and Suzie was doing it on a semi-regular basis”. When a relationship ends, a woman will cry and pour her heart out to her girlfriends, and she will write a poem titled “All Men Are Idiots”. Then she will get on with her life.
A man has a little more trouble letting go. Six months after the break-up, at 3:00 a.m. on a Saturday night, he will call and say, “I just wanted to let you know you ruined my life, and I’ll never forgive you, and I hate you, and you’re a total floozy. But I want you to know there’s always a chance for us”. This is known as the “I Hate You/I Love You” drunken phone call, that 99% of all men have made at least once. There are community colleges that offer courses to help men get over this need; alas, these classes rarely prove effective.
Sex:
Women prefer 30 – 45 minutes of foreplay. Men prefer 30 – 45 seconds of foreplay. Men consider driving back to her place as part of the foreplay.
Maturity:
Women mature much faster than men. Most 17-year-old females can function as adults. Most 17-year-old males are still trading baseball cards and giving each other wedgies after gym class. This is why high school romances rarely work.
Hats:
Women look good in hats; men look like dinks.
Comedy:
Let’s say a small group of men and women are in a room, watching television, and an episode of “The Three Stooges” comes on. Immediately, the men will get very excited; they will laugh uproariously, and even try to imitate the actions of Curly, man’s favorite stooge. The women will roll their eys and groan and wait it out.
Handwriting:
To their credit, men do not decorate their penmanship. They just chicken-scratch. Women use scented, colored stationary and they dot their “i’s” with circles and hearts. Women use ridiculously large loops in their “p’s” and “g’s”. It is a royal pain to read a note from a woman. Even when she’s dumping you, she’ll put a smiley face at the end of the note.
Bathrooms:
A man has at most six items in his bathroom – a toothbrush, toothpaste, shaving cream, razor, a bar of Dial soap, and a towel from the Holiday Inn. The average number of items in a typical woman’s bathroom is 437. A man would not be able to identify most of these items.
Magazines:
Men’s magazines often feature pictures of naked ladies. Women’s magazine also feature pictures of naked ladies. This is because the female body is a beautiful work of art, while the male body is hairy and lumpy and should not be seen by the light of day.
Groceries:
A woman makes a list of things she needs and then goes to the store and buys these things. A man waits till the only items left in his fridge are half a lemon and something turning green. Then he goes grocery shopping. He buys everything that looks good. By the time a man reaches the checkout counter, his cart is packed tighter that the Clampett’s car on Beverly Hillbillies. Of course, this will not stop him from going to the 10-items-or-less lane.
Going out:
When a man says he is ready to go out, it means he is ready to go out. When a woman says she is ready to go out, it means she will be ready to go out, as soon as she finds her other earring, finishes putting on her makeup…
Shoes:
When preparing for work, a woman will put on a Mondi wool suit, and then slip into Reebok sneakers. She wil carry her dress shoes in a plastic bag from Saks. When a woman gets to work, she will put on her dress shoes. Five minutes later, she will kick them off because her feet are under her desk. A man will wear one pair of shoes for the entire day.
Leg warmers:
Leg warmers are sexy. A woman, even if she’s walking the dog or doing the dishes, is allowed to wear leg warmers. She can wear them any time she wants.
A man can only wear leg warmers if he is auditioning for the “Gimme the Ball” number in “A Chorus Line”.
Cats:
Women love cats. Men say they love cats, but when women aren’t looking, men kick cats.
Mirrors:
Men are vain; they will check themselves out in the mirror. Women are ridiculous; they will check out their reflections in any shiny surface–mirrors, spoons, store windows, toasters, Joe Garagiola’s head.
Garages:
Women use garages to park their cars and to store their lawnmowers. Men use garages for many things. They hang license plates in garages, and they watch TV in garages, and they build useless lopsided benches in garages.
Movies:
For women, their favorite movie scene is when Clark Gable kisses Vivien Leigh for the first time in “Gone With The Wind”. For men, it’s when Jimmy Cagney shoves a grapefruit in Mae Clark’s face in “Public Enemy”.
Jewelry:
Women look nice when they wear jewelry. A man can get away with wearing one ring, and that’s it. Any more than that, and he will look like a lounge singer named Vic.
Menopause:
When a woman reaches menopause, she goes through a variety of complicated emotional, psychological, and biological changes. The nature and degree of the changes varies with the individual. Menopause in a man provokes a uniform reaction–he buys aviator glasses, a snazzy French cap and leather driving gloves, and goes shopping for a Porsche.
The Telephone:
Men see the telephone as a communications tool. They use the telephone to send short messages to other people. A woman can visit her girlfriend for two weeks, and upon returning home, she will call the same friend and they will talk for three hours.
Low Blows:
Let’s say a man and a woman are watching a boxing match on television. One of the fighters is felled by a low blow. The woman says “Oh, gee, that must hurt.” The man doubles over and actually feels pain.
Directions:
If a woman is out driving and she finds herself in unfamiliar surroundings, she will stop at a gas station and ask for directions. Men consider this to be a sign of weakness. Men will never stop and ask for directions. Men will drive in a circle for hours, all the while saying things like, “Looks like I’ve found a new way to get there”, and, “I know I’m in the neighborhood. I recognize that White Hen store”.
Admitting Mistakes:
Women will sometimes admit making a mistake. The last man who admitted that he was wrong was Gen. George Custer.
Richard Gere:
Women like Richard Gere because he is sexy in a dangerous way. Men hate Richard Gere because he reminds them of that slick guy who works at the health club and dates only married women.
Offspring:
Ah, children. A woman knows all about her children. She knows about dentist appointments and soccer games and romances and best friends and favorite foods and secret fears and hopes and dreams. A man is vaguely aware of some short people living in the house.
Dressing up:
A woman will dress up to go shopping, water the plants, empty the garbage answer the phone, read a book, get the mail. A man will dress up for: weddings, funerals.
Nudity in Movies:
Every actress in the history of movies has had to do a nude scene. This is because every movie in the history of movies has been produced by a man. The only actor who has ever appeared nude in the movies is Richard Gere. This is another reason why men hate him.
David Letterman:
Men think David Letterman is the funniest man on the face of the Earth. Women think he is a mean, semi-dorky guy who always has a bad haircut.
Cameras:
Men take photography very seriously. They’ll shell out $4,000 for state-of-the-art equipment, and build darkrooms, and take photography classes. Women purchase Kodak Instamatics. Of course, women always end up taking better pictures.
Politics:
Men love to talk politics, but often they forget to do political things such as voting. Women are very happy that another generation of Kennedys is growing up and getting into politics, because they will be able to campaign for them and cry on election night.
Locker Rooms:
In the locker room, men talk about three things: money, football, and women. They exaggerate about money, they don’t know football nearly as well as they think they do, and they fabricate stories about women. Women talk about one thing in the locker room–sex. And not in abstract terms, either. They are extremely graphic and technical, and they never lie.
Laundry:
Women do laundry every couple of days. A man will wear every article of clothing he owns, including his surgical pants that were hip about eight years ago, before he will do the laundry. When he is finally out of clothes, he will wear a dirty sweatshirt inside out, rent a U-Haul and take his mountain of clothes to the laundromat. Men always expect to meet beautiful women at the laundromat. This is a myth.
Weddings:
When reminiscing about weddings, women talk about “the ceremony”. Men talk about “the bachelor party”.
Cheerleaders:
Female cheerleaders are cute, sexy, fresh, and all-American. Male cheerleaders are scary.
Socks:
Men wear sensible socks. They wear standard white sweatsocks. Women wear strange socks. They are cut way below the ankles, have pictues of clouds on them, and have a big fuzzy ball on the back.
Toys:
Little girls love to play with toys. Then, when they reach the age of 11 or 12, they lose interest. Men never grow out of their obsession wih toys. As they older, their toys simply become more expensive and impractical. Examples of men’s toys: little miniature TV’s, car phones, complicated juicers and blenders, graphic equalizers, small robots that serve cocktails on command, video games, anything that blinks, beeps, and requires at least six “D” batteries to operate.
Plants:
A woman asks a man to water her plants while she is on vacation. The man waters the plants. The woman comes home five days later, to an apartment full of dead plants. No one knows why this happens.
Mustaches:
Some men look good with mustaches. Those men are Tom Selleck and Burt Reynolds. There are no women who look good with mustaches.
Nicknames:
With the exception of female body-builders, who call each other names like “Ultimate Pecs” and “Big Turk”, women eschew the use of nicknames. If Gloria, Suzanne, Deborah and Michelle get together for lunch, they will call each other Gloria, Suzanne, Deborah and Michelle. But if Mike, Dave, Rob and Jack go out for a brewsky, they will affectionately refer to each other as Bullet-Head, Godzilla, Peanut Brain and Useless.
http://baetzler.de/humor/differences_men_women.html
John,
Saying freedom is all in the mind is not a rational excuse for limiting women from the same roles as men.
Elizabeth,
Nope, nothing wrong with being a nurse. Something’s wrong when she’s told she can’t become a doctor because she’s a woman though!
Jasper,
Anti-feminists created the power-struggle myth. There need be no struggle. A simple hand up to the same level would be sufficient. Continuing to shove someone down on the pyramid will, however, result in struggle. But remember, women are not trying to reach the top of the pyramid, merely the same level as the men.
Posted by: Edyt at May 21, 2008 10:28 PM
When my daughter was two years old she announced, proudly, “I’m a girl, I can do anything!” I have no clue where she heard that before (maybe her aunt?), but I had to smile to hear such confidence from such a young child.
Somewhere along the way, some women start to doubt what they can accomplish. Some value other people’s opinions more than their own. It shouldn’t be that way. Women need to trust themselves. Those who believe in God, have God as their strength. Those who don’t have to find that inner strength elsewhere. It doesn’t happen by blaming men.
mk: 5:14:
Funny post! You could dedicate a weekend post to each one of those points! :)
HisMan,
You again posted about something that had nothing to do with my question. You called feminists pro-aborts..I asked..what about Feminists for Life? Or do you not believe that to be a real organization?
In the person of Christ, not in a hate driven movement.
Maybe you should listen to your own words, because I read your post that included insult after insult about people you don’t even know, so I would call you hate-filled. You had no other defense except that they were ugly, wart-covered hags. That’s really mature, HisMan. I’m really going to take anything you say seriously from now on.
In case you couldn’t tell, those last 2 sentences were blatant sarcasm.
mk: just too funny! :-P
Just a few thoughts:
Sex:
Women prefer 30 – 45 minutes of foreplay. Men prefer 30 – 45 seconds of foreplay. Men consider driving back to her place as part of the foreplay.
NO COMMENT!
Maturity:
Women mature much faster than men. Most 17-year-old females can function as adults. Most 17-year-old males are still trading baseball cards and giving each other wedgies after gym class. This is why high school romances rarely work.
MY SIXTEEN YR OLD’S TAKE: Why would ANYONE EVER date a teenage boy?
Magazines:
Men’s magazines often feature pictures of naked ladies. Women’s magazine also feature pictures of naked ladies. This is because the female body is a beautiful work of art, while the male body is hairy and lumpy and should not be seen by the light of day.
I wouldn’t know. I haven’t seen a male body in a long time. See above comment on sex.
Menopause:
When a woman reaches menopause, she goes through a variety of complicated emotional, psychological, and biological changes. The nature and degree of the changes varies with the individual. Menopause in a man provokes a uniform reaction–he buys aviator glasses, a snazzy French cap and leather driving gloves, and goes shopping for a Porsche.
Also known as andropause in men, my friends and I have noticed at the age when this happens they buy very big motorcycles.
Women can and should be doctors. But they would be “female doctors.
How many of you have a preference for which doctor you prefer? Dentists? Whatever. Gynies? We usually prefer one over the other. Some prefer men gynies. Some women. Because there are differences.
Yes women are just as smart as men. But the route that their thought takes is different. We just think differently. Not less, not more, just differently.
Posted by: mk at May 22, 2008 5:10 AM
To be quite honest I haven’t met too many women doctors that I’ve liked. My family physician is male and I like him although much less after he divorced his wife (they had EIGHT kids).
The woman doctor I had when my first child was very young was wonderful – she once asked me if I had medical training (which I do not). But she left the practice to raise her kids (not uncommon apparently). Maybe because she was an empathetic mom – that’s why I liked her so much.
Gag me with a spoon Elizabeth, like, whateva!
@Edyt & Lyssie,
“John,
Saying freedom is all in the mind is not a rational excuse for limiting women from the same roles as men.”
——
Hardly know where to begin, there are so many poor assumptions leading to a straw man. So, let’s start again.
Freedom (for me) is not an add-on/privilege but is at the very core of being human. In such a view, people are most free when they are themselves. And the will … the ‘I want’ part …is so very tiny (and ever changing) that relegating freedom to ‘I choose’ is myopic!
This only yields a very little information about ‘freedom’, but applying other thoughts to this a radically different understanding of ‘freedom’ occurs.
Understanding #1 … all in actuality is unique …. everything you can relate to is one-of-a-kind. When humans compare … a form of virtuality … based on similarities we get ‘types/species’. Freedom (because of its importance) is of actuality/one-of-a-kind … like courage, trust, hope, love, peace, truth… on and on. Virtuality is in-the-head and only a very small part of what we call freedom resides here. Freedom itself is not ‘free’ if it is restricted to human minds.
Perhaps an illustration … Elizabeth is a unique and free being … you say because she exercises ‘choice’. I would say Elizabeth is free because of her love for her daughter. Judging from outside, Elizabeth is tied-down by her duties. She is happy (and freer) because her love has extended her core being into another. This same holds true for all forms of love extended to other human beings.
To be totally free … is to be extended (in love) to God. ((In writing about this, Baroness Dougherty says that one becomes ‘liberated’ when God extends His being (Love) to us.)
By comparison, seeking freedom from ‘doing like men’ is just tire-spinning. Oh yeah, we’re not to compare!
John McD, 12:16 p.m.
Awesome post! (And not just cause you used me as a nice example!)
HisMan,
Careful, your “fruits” are showing.
There are tons of problems with these assumptions: I do not think shame of any sort … (even the vapid silliness of Edyt) has the ‘light’ to show anything but vindictiveness. You do not comprehend …. God creates uniquely never equally. He did not create any species. He created: Adam; Eve; Marykay; Jill; you; me; Doug … all singular beings called to be one in Him.
Hey John,
Oh come on, HisMan is much more vindictive and silly than Edyt, almost always.
And, Dude, your paragraph – talk about “assumptions”….
Okay, John. I get it. Everyone is free and unique and wonderfully created by God.
What I’m struggling with is the reason why all those unique men are making more money and enjoying more civil rights than all those unique women? Why do those free men have more freedom than those free women?
Or is that all in my unique little head?
@Edty,
Why compare? Do you get some kind of thrill by being less rich than Bill Gates? Aren’t you stretching the ‘victimhood’/poor-me-female a wee bit too much?
John McDonell @ 12:16 PM Excellent John – interesting in terms of refuting body/self dualistic philosophy.
Hmm – it’s also interesting that one can understand such freedom at a very basic level, but experientially through agape love it becomes so much richer and deeper.
@Doug,
I’m going off-line soon and thought some may like some views in my thinking. These are some CONCLUSIONS, not assumptions (starting points). There are all kinds of assumptions … that doesn’t make these perceptions false. A false conclusion stems from a false assumption … in a rare case two false assumptions do-make-a-conclusion-correct … when their effects cancel each other.
I wish to say ‘bye’ and give you a hug, but I’m getting a little-boy-Doug who is holding his breath until I relent. Bye, Doug and thanks … for being a good friend … or is that an assumption?
bmmg39 @ 7:23 PM re: my question whether you’re a secular humanist.
I didn’t ask that to be antagonistic, but simply clarify where you were coming from. If anything it was simply a hunch. Your arguments and perspective are rational and actually I agree that it’s not impressive when someone “pulls God out of a box” to substantiate their position on issues that aren’t directly theological. There are solid underlying reasons for most behaviors and we should be able to rationally explain them.
John,
I never wanted to be as rich as Bill Gates. I do not, however, think it is unreasonable to be paid the same amount as a man doing equal work.
I’m not trying to tear down anyone. I’m not trying to compare men and women. I’m not saying some people should be paid less or that men don’t deserve to get paid the amount they do. But if two people have the same job and have the same qualifications and do the same amount of work, don’t they deserve to be paid the same amount?
I’m going off-line soon and thought some may like some views in my thinking. These are some CONCLUSIONS, not assumptions (starting points). There are all kinds of assumptions … that doesn’t make these perceptions false. A false conclusion stems from a false assumption … in a rare case two false assumptions do-make-a-conclusion-correct … when their effects cancel each other.
I wish to say ‘bye’ and give you a hug, but I’m getting a little-boy-Doug who is holding his breath until I relent. Bye, Doug and thanks … for being a good friend … or is that an assumption?
John, I only meant that your thoughts about God are assumptions in the first place, rather than statements of fact.
I’ll be in touch, one way or t’other. And certainly, a big hug to you my friend.
Doug
Of course there has to be both love and respect, I’m not denying that. I’m saying love isn’t enough without respect too. Respect is critical. It’s an ego thing (men, correct me if I’m wrong).
Janet, right on and well said. I see it go too far that way at some times and in some cultures – that men feel they have to have “respect” to the point of being brutal, etc.
I’d agree that for men ego is more a big deal than for women, in general. Considering history and the state of most male-dominated cultures, I’d be willing to give women the reins, so to speak and see what would happen. Don’t think there is much history there, though matrilineal societies haven’t been bad.
Again, we need to get off this kick we have that boys are all horny devils (many are clearly not), while girls are all sugar and spice and everything nice.
Ha! Bmmg, maybe not all boys, sure, but I’d say we can generalize that yes, boys are still horny devils, so to speak. Lots of girls too, though girls are still nice if not “all sugar.”
How many of you have a preference for which doctor you prefer?
MK, my general practitioner is a good guy, though I could be his dad, by age. I would feel a bit weird having a female doctor for a GP, not a whole lot but it’d be there….
Aside from which sex, experience can certainly be a bonus, yet there’s also a lot to be said for younger doctors. It’s very hard to keep up with current knowledge when one is practicing, and doctors today come out of medical school with quite a bit more than “long ago.”
Doug said: I’d agree that for men ego is more a big deal than for women, in general. Considering history and the state of most male-dominated cultures, I’d be willing to give women the reins, so to speak and see what would happen. Don’t think there is much history there, though matrilineal societies haven’t been bad.
“Give women the reins”? We’ve had them for hundreds of years; we just let the guys think they do! (You know, the ego thing and all… :)
John,
I never wanted to be as rich as Bill Gates. I do not, however, think it is unreasonable to be paid the same amount as a man doing equal work.
I’m not trying to tear down anyone. I’m not trying to compare men and women. I’m not saying some people should be paid less or that men don’t deserve to get paid the amount they do. But if two people have the same job and have the same qualifications and do the same amount of work, don’t they deserve to be paid the same amount?
Posted by: Edyt at May 22, 2008 9:05 PM
——-
you keep hammering away at the same thing … I wished you to find freedom outside comparison. The need to compare is typically based on function (work) and on what a person does (job) rather than who they are. The word ‘same’ (like the word ‘equals’) always involves comparison. Do you wish to be free or do you want to remain fixated in comparison? Why are you not happy with the wage you do receive? If it is status, why is this so very important to you? Are you deprived?
Janet, I have to laugh – yes, sometimes the women are pretty good behind the scenes.
John McD:said: 11:37: The need to compare is typically based on function (work) and on what a person does (job) rather than who they are. The word ‘same’ (like the word ‘equals’) always involves comparison. Do you wish to be free or do you want to remain fixated in comparison? Why are you not happy with the wage you do receive? If it is status, why is this so very important to you? Are you deprived?
What you say makes so much sense to me. I think my mother was a wonderful example to me when I was growing up. She raised her family and worked very hard at it and never felt she needed to prove anything to anybody, like the feminists did in the 1960’s and on… She was too busy to worry about such things, frankly.
To a female who feels unhappy in the workplace, I’d recommend that they find a job in a different area. Life is too short to be “fighting battles” instead of “living”.
Doug: 7:10: Janet, I have to laugh – yes, sometimes the women are pretty good behind the scenes.
You know, it’s usually the quiet ones that get the most accomplished while the vocal ones are… well…being vocal.
Edyt: 6:37: What I’m struggling with is the reason why all those unique men are making more money and enjoying more civil rights than all those unique women? Why do those free men have more freedom than those free women?
Or is that all in my unique little head?
Edyt, You are special, unlike anyone else, and I don’t mean that in a condescending way.
I’m serious when I ask, what are these civil rights that men enjoy that women don’t? I’m puzzled.
Janet,
A couple of times we’ve talked about workforce discrimination here. Women with children, particularly single mothers, have been denied equal wages with their male counterparts because their employers think those women should stay at home, rather than go to work.
These are real life scenarios where women are working hard (as the saying goes – women make up 2/3 of the world’s workforce yet earn only 5% of the world’s income and own less than 1% of the world’s real property) and not being compensated for it.
THESE are the reasons some women choose abortions and you want me to stop trying to advance women’s rights in the workforce?! ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!
So, Edyt,
Personally, I have not experienced discrimination in the workplace which is what you are talking about specifically. The differences in pay may be more related to the types of jobs women are employed in by their own preference, than not receiving equal pay for equal work, at least in the USA.
I think great strides have been made in allowing flextime, providing daycare, for both mothers and fathers in the workplace.
The worldwide figures that you quote aren’t meaningful unless you can break them down by country, because there are obviously huge discrepancies in different cultures.
Trying to justify abortion by complaining about descrimination in the workplace is silly. Are you doing anything personally to help ease the problem in the workplace? Just talking about is not going to make a difference. Are you suffering discrimination today?
What freedoms are you talking about that men have that women don’t in the US?
By real property, do you mean real estate? It would be interesting to see those figures by country. My quess is the Muslim nations tip the scales a bit in favor of men. That’s their culture, I’m not going to go over there and tell them they are wrong. I wouldn’t want them to come tell me how to run my country either. I’d bet the US figures are higher than 1% for women real estate owners.
THESE are the reasons some women choose abortions and you want me to stop trying to advance women’s rights in the workforce?! ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!
Posted by: Edyt at May 23, 2008 3:19 PM
So how good does quality of life have to get before abortion is no longer a feasible solution to lifes’ problems? Is it a dollar value on income, housing costs? marital status? Or will there always be a good enough excuse for you to justify abortion?
This sounds very much like the story about the fellow who lost his car keys one night. As he was looking and looking to no avail, a passerby decided to assist. After another hour the frustrated helper said “Are you sure THIS is where you dropped them?”
“NO” was the reply, ‘over there (about 30’ away)!”
“then why are we searching HERE?”
“The light (from a street-lamp) is here!”
OK John, interpretation please, is that directed at me??? :)
Chris: “re: my question whether you’re a secular humanist…I didn’t ask that to be antagonistic, but simply clarify where you were coming from.”
I wasn’t implying that you’re being antagonistic at all. My questions and doubts in life don’t mean that think less of people who feel “surer” than I do. I’m not one of those people who comes to sites like these to sling arrows at people of faith.
mk: “How many of you have a preference for which doctor you prefer? Dentists? Whatever. Gynies? We usually prefer one over the other. Some prefer men gynies. Some women. Because there are differences.”
That some women prefer male OB/GYNs and others prefer female OB/GYNs confirms my belief that we’re all different because each person is unique, not because men and women differ due to gender.
no, no Janet,
your comments seem much like the ‘helper’ to Edyt. She does sound so adamant. Are we just pulling-the-rug-too-much? Will she prize herself and not her achievements?
Thanks, John, just making sure! Can I ask you what nationality you are? Irish on your Father’s side I assume…how about on your Mother’s side? You have a no-nonsense way about you which is definitely Irish, IMO. (That’s a good thing!) I have a bit ‘o that myself.
sorry Janet,
Scottish both sides … and 100% Scottish
John, No need to be sorry! I hope I didn’t insult you. :)