I was born a Catholic, identify as a Catholic, and attend Easter and Christmas Mass, and that’s Catholic enough for me.
~Pro-abortion commenter Joan, as quoted in Stanek post: Sunday Funnies 10-3-10, October 3
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
This comment reminds me both of the catholic squirrels joke, and the Roman Catholic Monthy Python’s sketch on “The Meaning of Life”. All so disparate from the truth not worth to take them seriously.
This is why the Teaching is so important – a Catholic needs to be taught authentically and live an authentic Catholic life.
Joan – I hope you get a huge spiritual awakening to what Christ and Catholicism is all about. It’s not just attending church twice a year on high holy days – it’s about following Christ closely in all things – about taking up His cross daily – about loving God as your center and loving others in His love. The power of God’s grace and the sacraments… So much to say here…
Maybe one should try to follow a devote Catholic Life in all things for a year and see what changes for you (is that Pascal’s wager?). There is a whole depth, a whole awakening when one devotes his/her life to Christ – a docility to Him and not to self that is liberating and totally beautiful….
And maybe, just maybe – a heart can be enlarged to make room for all humans to have protection, including the unborn.
Wishing for you a new and inviting journey.
I don’t subscribe to the rationale that you can’t have substantial disagreements with the Catholic Church and still be Catholic. However, I don’t think you can disagree with the Catholic Church on matters of life and death and still be Catholic in the true sense.
I’m curious, joan: why would God allow the conception of a unique human being and allow his/her development to continue if He thought it was okay for us to kill that person before he/she even made it out into the wider world? Why would God bother creating human life if ending it was perfectly okay by Him? You’ve said elsewhere that you don’t believe fetuses are people. Should Elizabeth have told Mary, “the non-human mass of cells shifted in my womb – but clearly not for joy, because it’s not even human”?
Should Elizabeth have told Mary, “the non-human mass of cells shifted in my womb – but clearly not for joy, because it’s not even human”?
LOL
I’ve been gravitating back towards the Church….and even I’m offended at Joan’s post. The fact that Joan said “Catholic enough for me” is very telling. That sums up the pro-abortion mind very nicely. “For me.”
If your parents were French or Italian, sure you could say that you are French or Italian when asked what is your ethnic background. But in the Catholic Church, after the Gospel reading and before the eucharistic prayers, we recite something very important: the profession of faith. Usually it is the Nicene creed, but even the shorter Apostle’s Creed hits all the main points of being Catholic. Maybe Creasters are too distracted to notice, but once you slow down, go to a regular sunday mass, or join an RCIA class, it is all explained to you.
One can’t be a Buddhist and have ignorance of the 4 Noble Truths or the 8 Fold path. You can’t just say, “oh I burn incense and chant om mani padme so I feel justified calling myself a Buddhist.” The reason Catholics educate children so that they make First Communion at the age they understand, and then Confirmation when they are even older, is so that all adult Catholics have a true comprehension of who and what they are. I hope all the lapsed Catholics out there make their way home. I hope they don’t just brush it off and continue to defy Christ.
I’ve said it before….sitting in Church (whether Catholic or Protestant) doesn’t make you a CHRISTIAN any more than sitting in your garage makes you a CAR.
You have to live your faith OUTSIDE of Church, too.
I feel a judge-lest-not-you-be-judged/who-among-you-will-cast-the-first-stone/why-do-you-notice-the-speck-in-your-brother’s-eye-but-not-the-beam-in-your-own rant coming on…
I don’t know that it would really apply here, Bobby. I believe if you’re going to do anything, you should do it wholeheartedly. For Joan to say she’s a Catholic, but then admit she believes in abortion, and hardly attends mass is like saying “I’m a visual artist because sometimes I draw doodles while I’m on the phone.”
I know a girl who says she’s a writer. Does she write anything? No. But she wants to have written. She hasn’t actually written anything at all. So she cannot be a writer, because she does not write.
Wondering if “Joan” is “Anne” from a few months back. Go to the archives (starting about February or so) and read some comments from “Anne”…I’m sensing the same tone in “Joan” ‘s comments.
What’s missing from Joan’s comment is love. A Catholic who loves the Church and loves the faith is not content to be “Catholic enough.” A person who loves the Church, and that includes the Pope (whom Joan clearly disdains), the sacraments and all Church teachings (not just the ones we like), will run to Mass out of desire to receive the Beloved Savior and worship Him. A person who loves the Lord will not stay away from Him except for two occasions during the year. A person who loves her faith will know it, understand it, defend it and live it without compromise.
What Joan is missing is love. She doesn’t love the Church or the Lord because she doesn’t really know either one. And that is the tragedy here.
Typical CINO.
Gee Wally, I was thinkin’…if I attended some Girl Scout meetings when I was a kid, and I buy two boxes of cookies every year, does that make me Girl Scout enough to call myself a Scout? I mean, it’s good enough for me, so it’s okay, right?
Lol! I’m just using an example, but I wonder…I don’t understand why new-age types and rebellious types want to identify with a 2000 year old Church that opposes the me-first-libertine-lifestyle.
Maybe Joan can tell us, if you don’t believe the Catholic teachings, don’t respect the Pope, promote abortion, and don’t like the rest of us… what is the lure of calling yourself Catholic? Really, I want to know. How can I understand if you don’t explain it me?
Ninek, that’s exactly what I want to know. What do they want? I think they like to believe in God JUST IN CASE. Or something.
Meanwhile, my own conversion is moving along slowly but surely. I will keep you all updated if you like.
Mary Lee, yes do keep us updated!
MaryLee,
May God bless you on your journey!! All in due time. Being OPEN to loving God and to God’s love for you is key! I would highly recommend visiting the Blessed Sacrament if you haven’t already. It’s a life-changing experience.
Jennifer,
I LOVED your comment, can you tell? :)
You know, I see this a lot of the time, and I’m just going to come out and say it.
No.
I could live inside a garage, and that wouldn’t make me a mechanic. I don’t know anything about how to fix a car. Unless you can unreservedly say you believe everything in the Nicene Creed, then you aren’t any sort of a Christian, whether you “identify” that way or not. Those are the bare minimum requirements, all spelled out in neat language. You can’t believe whatever the heck you want and call yourself Muslim. You can’t believe whatever the heck you want and call yourself Shinto. Why on Earth do people–any people–think they can believe whatever they want and call themselves Christians?!?
I realize I’m being ranty, but I am so tired of seeing people think it’s okay to treat God as a hobby. If God is God, then you owe Him more than “Christmas and Easter and whenever I feel like it.”
MaryLee,
I will be praying for you and thank you for sharing that.
Although I am not Catholic and hardly understand most of the stuff you guys write I am grateful for your witness and your love.
Carla, you have a better understanding than you think, :>) .
It looks to me like there is a trend of people thinking that Catholic is an ethnic group. I don’t like this comparision, but it’s kind of like people who have Jewish parents that self-identify as Jewish but are new-agers or atheists.
Just to reiterate to the now-silent Joan: Catholic is not an ethnic group. You weren’t born Catholic, but rather born into a Catholic family. You did not mention if you were baptized.
Catholics have 3 basic initiation steps one must take in order to be in the Church: 1) baptism. Admittedly, infants who don’t speak, don’t understand it. This leads us to 2) First Communion. Lots of children in this situation are about 8 years old or older, the age when they can begin to understand the Holy Trinity, and basic things about Jesus and the Church. Finally we come to 3) Confirmation. Confirmation is made when a young adult or adult is fully educated in the Church teachings. An adult needs a sponsor to complete this process, and the sponsor must be a practicing Catholic in good standing. This is because the Catholic Church doesn’t want blind followers. As many of you can see, Joan doesn’t have this very basic knowledge about what it is to be Catholic. That’s ok, because we’re here to help. I had a friend who thought that all Christians must be tolerant and why do we judge and why don’t we support abortion? Well, I don’t know what religion they have mistaken for Christianity, but we all believe certain basic things: that Jesus is the only son of God, that he was born, was crucified, buried, and rose from the dead. That is as simple and basic as it gets. Christians certainly cannot support abortion; those who do are mislead, or worse they are mis-leading others.
“I don’t understand why new-age types and rebellious types want to identify with a 2000 year old Church that opposes the me-first-libertine-lifestyle. “
I don’t understand that either. However, I don’t understand why anyone wants to part of any religion. I honestly don’t.
Hal, it’s a good question, one I’ve asked many many times. I was nearly atheist for a very long time; I am having a strange conversion, and maybe someday I will go into detail. My husband, likewise, who was an atheist all his life, has also been converting slowly into some sort of belief. There are a lot of sad and strange and wonderful and terrible things happening; both my husband and I hold graduate degrees, can be socially liberal (my stance on gay rights will not waiver no matter what my religious beliefs), and we both are very skeptical about everything. He is even more pragmatic than I am, and he and I have had some interesting talks. But when the time is right, I can explain more. Right now I am just so hungry and my dinner is ready!
I have to admit, I did not anticipate this kind of reaction to me being the “wrong kind of Catholic”. Maybe I’ve spent too much time in polite society, but it’s always been my understanding that there are certain lines decent people don’t cross, and one of them is dressing down a person for practicing their religion the wrong way, or not enough, or whatever the complaint du jour is. Maybe I didn’t make myself clear enough the last time I talked about this, but I’m happy and satisfied with my beliefs. They do what I need them to do for me and I take comfort in them. They’re a part of my identity and I take them seriously: someone said something about me being Catholic just because I was born to Catholic parents, but that’s not true. I know I could walk away from my religion at any time, but I’m staying because I am a believer, and taken generally, I am in agreement with all of the Church’s major ideals. Do I disagree on some individual issues? Yes, I do, and I have never met a single person who has professed to agree with every single policy position that the Catholic Church has taken. So if me being pro-choice or not attending Mass often enough to your liking is such a great apostasy that I don’t deserve to call myself Catholic, then probably a majority of other American Catholic women are in the same boat as I am. Is that a judgment any of you are prepared to pass? To unilaterally deem millions of believers unfit to identify with their religion?
Joan, that’s fine for you to believe what you believe. But you’re not the “wrong kind of Catholic.” You’re not Catholic at all. You cannot abuse the name of God and support the killing of babies. It doesn’t make sense. You have a right to believe what you believe. You do not have a right to misrepresent what you believe; your beliefs are not Catholic. Calling yourself Catholic is like me moving to England and calling myself British. Anyone who receives Communion and supports abortion is on dangerous ground.
Hey, I’m having issues coming back to the Church myself. I am not pro-life for religious reasons. As pro-life as I am, I am in support of gay rights and birth control. It is obvious I would be considered a heretic. But your posts, all of them, do not illustrate any real logic or any real soul searching, just a bunch of sound bites. If we believe in God, in any form, we cannot possibly believe that the killing of unborn children is okay, for any reason, unless we are seriously delusional.
MaryLee, I wonder how you have come to the conclusion that you’re on firmer ground than I am when it comes to justifiably calling oneself Catholic, yet you also disagree with what are technically fundamental, “official” positions of the Church. In fact, you’re as good an example as I am that it’s not reasonable to expect people to just fall in line and structure their every belief around the official positions of the Church. I’m not a zombie, I’m an educated, socialized adult, and the beliefs I’ve come to adopt are ones that I’ve spent plenty of time contemplating. I cannot and will not allow a bureaucracy to tell me what I believe.
” It is obvious I would be considered a heretic.”
Just an FYI, MaryLee, I don’t think your particular disagreements constitute you as a heretic in the technical sense of the word. I’m not sure exactly which word would accurately describe you, but it isn’t heretic. A heretic is more about incorrect doctrine, which moral theology I don’t think technically falls under.
So while, objectively speaking, it is a very problematic disagreement you are talking about, it does not fall under the technical category of heresy. God love you.
Maybe I’ve spent too much time in polite society, but it’s always been my understanding that there are certain lines decent people don’t cross
Wow.
Hal, I find your candor very refreshing!
My own faith journey has been a funny, strange road. I returned to church in my 30’s. Though I’d been baptized and all that, I went through the RCIA program because I had lapsed for so long. I have no regrets, but it is challenging to live in the modern world and love an ancient faith. Faith is like falling in love; very rich to experience. There are so many well written books on the subject that I wouldn’t take up the comment space with a long dissertation. CS Lewis for example; he’s a far better writer than I will ever be.
Joan, you support the killing of the unborn. That is the most heinous act in the history of humankind. I just told you that my beliefs (regarding gay rights and birth control) are not in line with strict Catholic teaching, but I cannot understand how anyone in their right mind would support abortion, especially if that person purports to believe in God. I understand where you are coming from; however, the gay community does not have a history of killing, they have a history of being killed. NFP is a form of birth control, and I don’t see the difference between using NFP or condoms. And since I believe in accountability and responsibility, then I should hope that one who uses birth control would be well aware that it might “fail.” And should that birth control “fail,” one would not decide that their child’s life must be ended violently; I should hope that the child’s mother would recognize that he or she has a right to live, even if the pregnancy was unplanned. I have never said I’m on firmer ground than you. We are all sinners. But the killing of innocents, the spilling of their blood, in the name of selfishness…..KILLING them, the dismemberment of babies so that his or her mother may live as she believes she deserves, the abortionists who line their pockets with this blood money…..There is nothing more awful than that. I believed that even when I believed in no God at all.
Thank you Bobby! Your message meant a lot.
Mary Lee,
There is a wonderful blog about called http://www.conversiondiary.com that may help you. It is from an atheist who became Catholic, INTELLECTUALLY. As she puts is, she didn’t have the gene faith. Faith, came afterwards.
Thank you Chantal! What a beautiful blog. Lately I’ve been reading a LOT of C.S. Lewis. I studied theology and philosophy in college, and I’ve always sort of considered him to be a tether to faith; I was never really TOTALLY atheist, but atheistic, if you will.
By the way, THIS is amazing:
http://www.conversiondiary.com/2008/01/how-i-became-pro-life.html
..”and that’s Catholic enough for me.”
I can guarantee that’s not enough for God. It’s not about what you or I want to believe or follow. It’s about what God wants. Showing up for Christmas and Easter Mass so you can have a hallmark card holiday moment is far from living the faith.
Substantiate for me how being a ChriEaster Catholic is “enough” based on the Catholic deposit of faith (Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and magisterial teaching).
The Catholic faith is so rich. Stop limiting yourself to what is comfortable. True happiness comes from fulfilling God’s will and not your own.
“Yes, I do, and I have never met a single person who has professed to agree with every single policy position that the Catholic Church has taken.”
Not sure what you mean by policy but I believe and agree with everything the Catholic church teaches in faith and morals.
joan
October 4th, 2010 at 7:00 pm
… I’m happy and satisfied with my beliefs. They do what I need them to do for me and I take comfort in them…
This is a perfect example when we don’t live the faith, but adjust the faith to suit our personal needs. Like “God on demand”. When I’m in need I go to Him for consolation and help, other than that I don’t care what HE wants from me.
…I have never met a single person who has professed to agree with every single policy position that the Catholic Church has taken…..
I do! I agree with absolutely everything Church teaches. I believe in papal infalibility. And I follow the Church’s teaching as close as I can. Now that you met someone who “agrees with every single policy”, what you say now? As an addition, at least 6 of my family members/friends have the same attitude towards Catholic Faith and Church. There.
…So if me being pro-choice or not attending Mass often enough to your liking is such a great apostasy that I don’t deserve to call myself Catholic, …
Call yourself whatever you want, just don’t misguide other people to think that going to Mass twice a year and supporting abortion is what we Catholics do! There’s a term of “paper Catholic” or “cafeteria Catholic” that might be more exact – as someone who was born/raised Catholic, but doesn’t really live fully to their faith. “But since you are like lukewarm water, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth!” (Rev 3:16)
…then probably a majority of other American Catholic women are in the same boat as I am…
Weak excuse. It’s like a naughty child saying “well, but other children are naughy, why can’t I be”. Why try and compare yourself with other lukewarm people, why not try and compare yourself to saints? How about that for inspiration. We are all called to BE saints, to be Christ’s images on Earth. How close an image are you?
Just to add, I also have many lukewarm friends and we love eachother nonetheless, but there’s no harm in pointing out the Truth. God loves us all, no matter what we do, what we say, what we support, just like a father, He loves us all. But just like a father He is also just, and we will all get judged at the end. By what criteria? Do we fit that criteria? Did we live up to the standard of being a saint? Obviously, to actually become a saint, it’s all in God’s mercy, but to put all the effort we can is what’s required from our part!
I was born a Democrat, my great-uncle ran for mayor as a Democrat, I would have voted for Democrat JFK except for being 3 years old at the time, and that’s Democrat enough for me.
I (heart) Bush! Palin for Prez in 2012! Ship Obama back to Indonesia!
(yes, I’m being sarcastic, thanks for noticing.)
Carla wrote, in reply to Joan:
[Joan]
Maybe I’ve spent too much time in polite society, but it’s always been my understanding that there are certain lines decent people don’t cross
[Carla]
Wow.
Yeah, that was something of a jaw-dropping and/or beverage-spewing moment for me, too. The irony is thick enough to need a diamond-tipped saw-blade for its cutting.
Its part of my cultural heritage to be black, even though I’m white. But I listen to rap music, wear baggy clothes, and love Obama, so that is black enough for me. I always claim to be black on my job and financial assistance applications because I feel entitled to be black.
So, I may not be your “ideal” black, but I claim to be anyway, mostly because I’m an idiot.
“I can guarantee that’s not enough for God.”
Oh really? You can guarantee that? Fantastic.
Hal, I agree that that statement seems questionable.
But something that has stuck with me: C.S. Lewis says God asks from us one thing only….the simplest and the most difficult. And that one thing is: Us, in our entirety. Our souls, our minds, our hearts, everything. And when we turn ourselves over to God, and realize our smallness and meekness, He gives us back to ourselves 100%. I am saddened by some people’s belief that they are closer to God, or better Christians than others. At the same time, however, Joan’s statement is also full of pride. It’s not unlike someone who comes into work and does the bare minimum–just enough to not get fired.
for “ha!”
Actually anyone can guarantee that simply by reading Scripture and the Catechism, which is entirely based upon Scripture and Tradition.
So, if one can read, one can know that indeed, saying “Lord, Lord” is not good enough.
Oh MaryLee, your comment to Hal is so insightful and penetrating! My goodness, I can tell how serious your search into Christianity is.
If I may, let me give you something to think about that ties in what you said with, I think, your biggest issue with the Catholic Church. I’ve actually been thinking about writing this to you for a while, and your comment to Hal like “a sign” that I should.
As you mentioned last night (and have on other occasions), you disagree with the Catholic Church on the issues of homosexual actions and contraception. Fair enough. I, as well as others, can try and convince you otherwise through argumentation. But there really is another way, one in which you have touched upon. I once heard Scott Hahn say teh following: If we intellectually convinced of all teh truths that the Catholic Church teaches, and we are Catholic and hold to the truths that the Catholic Church proposes because we intellectually believe them, then that is NOT faith! That is simply “I happen to agree with everything you say.” But true faith comes from believing something primarily because it is revealed by God. This does not mean that it is good to not have any intellectual reason to back up what we believe, but it does mean that the MAIN reason we believe should not be because of our own intellect or are own arguments.
And I think this gels so perfectly with what you wrote to Hal above. In order to give ourselves completely to God, we have to let go of ourselves. If God has indeed revealed that homosexual actions and contraception are gravely disordered, it is such a TRUE and BEAUTIFUL act of faith to say “Lord, I don’t understand why this is the case. I don’t know why these things are immoral in your sight. I wouldn’t have done it this way if I were you… but I trust in you and I give even my misunderstandings questions and doubts to you. If you say it, Lord, I will believe it.”
So teh way I see it, the issue is that IF God has revealed through his Church that these things are the way they are, then it is an act of faith and self-giving to God to go with him on the issues that we don’t understand and to trust in him. Just as a little child does not understand why he has to get a shot or why he has to eat his vegetables, so too we may not understand why God does things the way he does or has set up things teh way he has set them up… but we do know that if that is what he has revealed, then it is for our good because he is our loving Father, much more loving and desiring of teh best for us than I am to my children.
I know you’re searching, MaryLee, and I know how incredibly difficult and decisive the issue of homosexual actions and contraception is. But if you can, maybe pray about and meditate on this idea over a a while. I think it makes really good sense that if we realize that God has revealed something (which may be another difficulty) then we very much have all the reason in teh world to believe it is true, in fact, MORE reason to believe it is true than anything we arrive at using our own intellect. God love you.
Bobby, thank you for your beautiful message. I am not sure that my support of gay-rights will ever diminish, and this is possibly because I am surrounded by it; they are in my family, and they are my close friends. I should hope, that even if I don’t waiver in my support of gay-rights, that God would understand my heart. The same would go for contraception. The heart of the Church, I believe, is love, and life in all its forms. I was pro-life even when I believed in nothing, because life is life. I am not sure I will ever see homosexuality as a sin the way I see the killing of babies as a sin….But I am doing the best I can.
Hi, MaryLee!
I almost dread to tread (no rhyme intended… :| ) where Bobby trod so eloquently and well, but: I was in your own boat, once upon a time (not so long ago); I have several friends who are homosexual, and I love them dearly… so, I thought, how could I bear to “judge” them for what seemed to be so fundamental to their being? (The same thing happened with contraception: many people whom I love use(d) it, and I took a very “none of my business, I won’t use it but I won’t worry about whomever else does” sort of approach to it.)
It wasn’t until years later, and some horrid (and some bizarre) experiences later, that I found my heart in a place to re-evaluate what I’d once held… and it was an instance of “God writing straight with crooked lines (such as me)”. A bit over 12 years ago, I was diagnosed with leukemia (one day before my wedding, in fact!), and my life was turned upside-down. The chemo worked well, and I’ve been in complete remission for over 11 years… but facing death like that really has a way of rearranging one’s priorities (especially since another relative of mine had died of leukemia mere months before, and the disease struck with almost blinding speed!). One point was driven home to me: cancer is evil, and I’m never going to be asked to deny that, but God can (and did) work even that tragedy to even better good, according to His promise (cf. Romans 8:28).
Here’s my point, I guess: I know that being a cancer sufferer doesn’t make me less worthwhile as a person, even though it’s horrid, and even though its presence caused many people to become awkward and diffident around me (especially when the disease was at its worst). It finally struck me: homosexuality is a *disease*, just like cancer, just like diabetes, etc.; and I can declare it to be utterly evil while still embracing the sufferer as good and worthy of love! For me to “hate” someone who suffers from same-sex attraction disorder would be akin to someone else “hating” me for having cancer–it would say far more about the “hater” than about the sufferer, yes?
That’s why I hate the disease called homosexuality, just as I hate cancer and deformities and diabetes, etc.: it robs a beautiful person, created in the Image and Likeness of God Himself, of much of what life should be; and–even worse–it can tempt people into particular types of sin (just as cancer can tempt someone to hate God, friends, etc., by driving someone to self-absorption and despair), which can threaten them ETERNALLY. (Compared to that, a painful death by leukema is a pittance… nothing at all!) Homosexuality reaches into a person’s soul with sharp talons and starts ripping and tearing until nothing works as it should, and the world seems almost the opposite of what it truly is; black seems to be white, and white seems to be black.) That’s why I hate lust: it destroys lives and souls with an efficiency that’s almost unrivalled in human experience (since our sexuality is so powerful and fundamental to who we are, and lust is a perversion of that). That’s why I hate contraception: because it opens the door to lust with a wink and a nod, and invites persons–whom we should only love–to use each other and to be used, to their ruin.
The adage “love the sinner and hate the sin” really came home to me in a new way: “love the sufferer, hate the disease”. Trying to move heaven and earth to save those who are suffering, lost and dying is an act of love and mercy… not hate. That fact is one of many aspects of the Gospel that I now understand, I think, for the first time.
See, that’s the difference between you and me, Paladin. I don’t see homosexuality as a disease. I don’t see these people as sick. I just see them as people who are people. Who happen to be gay. I don’t know. I’m not sure anything will EVER shake that, just like nothing will shake my belief that aborting babies is okay. I cannot bring myself to believe that the gay community is so corrupt as to be dangerous. It does not make any sense to me.
I don’t really like the idea of “love the sinner, hate the sin.” Who am I to call anyone a sinner? I am a horrible sinner myself.
…I have never met a single person who has professed to agree with every single policy position that the Catholic Church has taken…..
I do. But I didn’t always. Interesting trip.
MaryLee wrote:
See, that’s the difference between you and me, Paladin. I don’t see homosexuality as a disease.
I understand, believe me! For most of my life, I didn’t think so, either… mainly because I thought it would involve “saying bad things about people I love”. Emotionally speaking, it *feels* bad to say that someone has a disease… especially if the world has gotten so topsy-turvy that they’re “identified” with their disease so much! (It’d be a bit like me somehow falling in love with cancer… or at least accepting it as “an alternate version of normal”. Creepy!) It feels even worse to tell them that something they currently *do* is disordered and/or sinful (who ever wants to hear that?); but this is one reason why I (and we) need God: He’s the Truth, as well as the Way and the Life… and I’m not. He’s better-qualified to know how humans (whom He designed) are designed to work, and how they’re NOT designed to work. He can tell us how to distinguish sins from non-sins.
I don’t see these people as sick. I just see them as people who are people.
The two aren’t mutually exclusive. I didn’t become less of a “person” because of my illness; neither are these people any less “people” because of their disorders, nor is someone with other birth defects and/or deformities (e.g. missing arms and legs, etc.) “less of a person”.
Who happen to be gay.
That’s just it: it’s quite possible that they were born with that disorder, just as some children are born without arms, others are born with spinal bifida, and so on. They might well have “happened” to have a disordered sexual drive, which can well prove to be a terrible cross for them.
I don’t know. I’m not sure anything will EVER shake that, just like nothing will shake my belief that aborting babies is okay. I cannot bring myself to believe that the gay community is so corrupt as to be dangerous.
There’s no need for us (or anyone) to characterize them like that, any more than there’d be a need to categorize me as “unclean”. “Corrupt” has many meanings, and the most common one (in this context) is “morally evil”–which isn’t at all necessary to believe about the people themselves. (Some of them may well be corrupt, just as some heterosexuals are corrupt; it’s just that the former have a particular disability that the latter do not share.)
I don’t really like the idea of “love the sinner, hate the sin.” Who am I to call anyone a sinner? I am a horrible sinner myself.
That’s just it: EVERYONE on earth, right now, is a sinner; we’re quite safe in saying that, since we’re simply taking God’s word for it (Romans 3:23); our own sinfulness doesn’t affect that fact, one way or the other. Beyond that, we’re *commanded* to discern the sins of ourselves and others (Jeff Cavins calls this, “being fruit inspectors”, cf. Matthew 7:16, “By their fruits you shall know them”), since Jesus commands us to tell our brother his fault, if he sins (cf. Matthew 18:15-17)… and to take him before 2 or 3 witnesses, and then to the Church, if he’s intransigent. None of that could happen, unless we were able, willing and free to discern sins from non-sins… even in others. It doesn’t mean that we write them off as non-persons, or “scum”; it’s actually a work of MERCY, by trying to lead them away from what could lead them to damnation.
Does that help, even a smidgen?
Joan, I reiterate: you are a not member of the Catholic Church if you have not been catechized, and have not gone through all three initiation steps. The church doors are open for anyone who wants to join us for Mass. But that doesn’t make everyone in the pews a Catholic. It’s one thing to have a little doubt about Catholic teaching and sincerely try to work through it, but quite another to declare publicly that abortion is not murder and that calling it murder is some kind of ridiculous fantasy. (per one of your previous comments)
Am I willing to pass judgement on all the other American women who think they are Catholic but are sure not? Yes, I am. Nancy Pelosi: Not Catholic. In fact, I think Adam Sandler could write a little song about all the Not Catholics.
And finally, my dear Joan, it would be unkind of me not to warn you, especially if you think you are a believer, that your soul is in grave danger. This is not catty judgement like telling you that your hair is ugly. This is a real warning: abortion is murder, God knows, you know it, and we all know it. Failure to accept that fact puts your soul in danger. It is not man who judges, it is God. Our judgements are human, and do not have the power to condem a person’s soul. But do you really want to go toe to toe with the almighty in defense of abortion?? Not to mention the cruelty of your comments on Jill’s site – Not What Jesus Would Do.
Yes, Paladin, I see what you’re saying. I really do. But I’m afraid that it’s just a belief that will not be shaken. I’m not sure I have the right or even the ability to save someone else’s soul from damnation. It is not my business. And, as I’ve said, my experience is very different than some people’s. But I am slowly gravitating back to the Church. My strongest conviction is my pro-life conviction, the unnecessary killing of babies. It’s easy to sort of live and let live where the gay community is concerned; but I cannot stand by and allow the killing of babies. To be sure, I believe the gay-rights question SHOULD stay out of pro-life forums; even if one believes homosexuality is a sin, it does not follow that the issue is related to the killing of babies. Gay couples aren’t really the ones having babies, are they? And they aren’t the ones killing them. I am aware that you may think my heart is in the right place, but that I’m misguided. Still, while I cannot bring myself to condemn homosexuality, I also cannot bring myself to ever condone abortion, not ever.
I think we should all make the health of the unborn, and the well-being of all mothers, our focus.
Joan,
When you say “Amen” at the time of Communion it means “I Believe”, but not only does it mean you believe that the bread and the wine have been transubstantiated into Jesus’s Body and Blood but it ALSO means you believe and agree with every single thing the Catholic Church teaches and obviously since you disagree with the Church’s stance on abortion, you don’t agree with everything the Catholic Church teaches.
My guess is you probably don’t understand the Catholic Church’s teachings. Most people don’t, including Catholics themselves. I confess, I don’t understand absolutely everything, but I figure there’s somethings that my brain is too small to understand since I’m not God. However, that doesn’t change the fact it’s not true and right. Bottom line is: most things have a good reason for what they are if you bother searching it out.
Jesus said: “Seek and ye shall find.” Seek out real answers…search “The Catechism of the Catholic Church”, read things written by the popes.
Christopher West has taken Pope John Paul II’s “The Theology of The Body” and broken it down into easily understood concepts. (http://www.christopherwest.com ).
Patrick Madrid has written several books explaining Catholicism.
Jeff Cavins has a wonderful book out called “I’m NOT Being Fed!” and a book about his own conversion experience (which I have yet to read all the wa through) called “My Life On The Rock”
Jason Evert explains a lot of things having to do with chasitty and Catholic Church teaching.
Scott & Kimberly Hahn have numerous books out on Catholic teaching. (“Rome Sweet Home” is very good).
Many of the saints have written several things. Including St. Teresa of Avila, St. Therese of Liseux, St. Thomas Aquintas, St. Augustine of Hippo. (I haven’t read everything written by these saints, but I’ve heard a lot of good things about their writings–and I have read St. Therese of Liseux’s biography).
Check out Fullness of Truth for even more resources: http://www.fullnessoftruth.org/
There is so many resources for Catholics today that for those of us who can read or listen to things on disc who have access to libraries, bookstores, and the internet ignorance of Church teaching is not an excuse.
We must always strive to learn and grow in our faith. I can guarentee as a Cradle Catholic of almost 31 years I STILL have PLENTY to learn and room to grow. Even my parents often learn a new understanding of the Catholic Church through the learning they do (they attend tons of conferences, listen to cds, watch DVDs/VHS, and attend classes).
As my mother says, “God’s not finished with me, yet.” as He’s not finished with any of us here on Earth.
I’m not sure I have the right or even the ability to save someone else’s soul from damnation.
MaryLee,
You’re right up to a point. A person has a duty to exhort and show people the right way and error of their ways if such a thing is occurring–However, ONLY GOD’S grace and a person’s heart and soul being open to that grace can save a person’s soul. (Through the blood of Jesus are we saved, but we have to be open to that grace). Another human does NOT have that kind of power and ability. ONLY God and that person’s receptiveness to God can determine salvation.
However, judging a person’s actions is in line with what we believe as Catholics, in fact, it would be wrong of us not to LOVINGLY–that’s something we all forget, is to not yell or scream or condemn when we–urge someone towards truth.
It is also in line with the Jewish bible we call the Old Testament. The Lord told Ezekiel that if he did not at least attempt to save his neighbor from death, that the Lord would hold him responsible for said death.
If you try to save your brother or sister, even if you fail, the Lord credits you with life, eternal life.
Look, I do my best to love the unloved, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, I do my best to live mindfully of others and to be aware of my actions and their consequences, good or bad. I believe in accountability and responsibility. I do not believe it is my place to preach to anyone; I would rather live the Word of God, rather than reiterate it. I need to work on my own soul, which is corruptible and weak; I can be no good to anyone if I do not understand my own ugliness and frailty. However, I believe in compassion above all, and that is really all I can do. I think the conversation has been somewhat derailed because of my sympathies towards the gay community; but I think our focus, especially on this forum, should be the truth about abortion, and the lies on which the abortion industry stands.
MaryLee,
Oh we all have to work on our souls. I never said I was perfect. But it also isn’t against God to tell people if they’re in error. In fact, as we pointed out, it’s in the Bible.
I don’t tell people they’re going to hell. THAT kind of a judgment call I leave up to God. But if you can’t tell a person that an action isn’t right, then you’re not helping them and part of what we’re supposed to do is help one another and encourage one another.
Check out Christopher West’s talks. He even talks about this. (http://www.christopherwest.com ).
The kind of pointing out error is in line with the topic of abortion because it’s what we pro-lifers do every time we say abortion is wrong. We’re imperfect beings, but we recognize the error in the action of supporting and/or having an abortion.
You, Joan, are not Catholic.