Quote of the Day 12-16-10
Someone please explain to me why pregnant women are left standing on buses and trains, whilst able-bodied men sit back and pretend not to see them?
As a member of the “club” myself, I have yet to be offered a seat by a man….
I’ll be dangling from the bars with my belly pressed right up against their nostrils, and they’ll remain planted in their seats, with eyes tightly shut. The eyes shut thing is a classic; it’s as if as soon as my belly wanders onto the train, seated males spontaneously fall into a coma.
Women, on the other hand have shown themselves to be far more gracious, frequently jumping up to offer a seat….
So, [men], if you’re not prepared to exhibit basic manners, then at least tell me what goes through your heads when a pregnant woman looms over you, threatening to poke out your eye with her protruding navel, as she is jostled about the train?
… [W]hen I look down at your pathetic, indifferent faces, I don’t see men. I just see failures and losers, and I want to puke. And it’s not just morning sickness.
~Annabelle Charbit, The Frisky, December 16
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Ouch!
Sometimes the truth hurts.
I remember being taught many moon ago that it was my duty as a man to offer my seat to women, not just the ones who happen to be with child. I don’t. seem to find myself in that situation very often but when I do, I do.
I must confess, it always makes me feel good. It’s such a small gesture really. Sometimes another guy will follow my lead. Those that don’t, I honestly don’tknow what they’re thinking. Which I guess is the point, that they don’t.
I’d bet more than a couple of the guys described are post-abortive and that’s a reason they can’t bear to face a pregnant woman or act like she might need the seat more than they do. How do you reconcile telling your girlfriend to get rid of it and then offer a seat to another woman on the bus or train? If they offer a seat, then they treat a stranger with more care than their own.
Back when I was only a year post-A, I always turned my head away from pregnant women. Another year later, I couldn’t look at babies. A year after that, I couldn’t look at toddlers.. and on it went.
Ninek, I think that is a distinct possibility.
I also think respect for women in general has gone down, in part due to feminism. The women want to be treated just like the guys, and now they are.
And to be honest, if an elderly person entered the bus or train and no one offered to get up to let them sit, I’d be just as offended by that.
I prefer that people not offer me a seat based on my gender, but if I’m struggling with something heavy etc then I always appreciate the kind gesture. Likewise I always offer my seat to a pregnant woman, to an elderly person, to someone holding a large bag etc, or just to someone who has that tired look about them – you never know when someone is simply feeling a bit under the weather and would love to get off their feet for a few minutes. I’ve certainly been there – after a really awful workday even, sometimes there is nothing like someone seeing and reacting to that fatigue in your eyes.
I take the train everywhere so it’s a daily thing for me. Sometimes I do zone out – I work long hours, and often read or listen to music on the train – but I try to be aware and glance around me every stop or two, to see who’s gotten on recently.
And for the record I am more than happy to be treated like “one of the guys.” I treat guys pretty well, but I don’t treat them well just because they’re guys. And I expect the same of them.
My record on this hasn’t been as stellar as I would like, but I do try. Currently, I ride a commuter bus, and 99% of the time there are seats for everyone. However, at times when it has been standing-room only, I have given up my seat to a standing woman for the 20 mile journey home.
When I lived in Chicago, however, I did get a bit of a mind-blank when riding the El. I usually had to stand in the morning, because all the seats were taken by the time I got on. In the afternoon, I usually got a seat. I would enter into a bit of a trance and didn’t look at or acknowledge anyone or anything, for the most part, and so did a lot of other riders. I remember one time, for instance, when someone sat down on the train next to me. I sensed it was a young woman. She got off the same stop I did, and then caught the same bus. It wasn’t until we got off at the same bus stop that I realized that the woman was a casual friend. We had just spent the previous 45 minutes literally a foot or two from each other at most, and yet never once made any sort of eye contact or identified each other. Now, this doesn’t mean that it is okay to make a woman, pregnant or not, stand on the train or bus. But, I do think that there are occasions when men enter a public transit trance and don’t notice the pregnant woman in front of them.
With that said, there was a time when I was standing, in the morning, and said something. I was at one end of the El car, and saw a very pregnant woman carrying a ~2 year old child at the other end. When we reached the next stop, and the woman did not get off, I called out “Would someone please allow the pregnant woman carrying a toddler to sit down?!?” It was amazing how quickly a couple of people reacted, though sadly the first one to respond was a woman, not a man.
We do need men to be real men again, and that means a return to chivalrous behavior. I will try to do my part better and more consistently in the future.
My point, Alexandra, is that being treated just like one of the guys while you’re pregnant is pretty inconsiderate. I don’t expect anyone to offer me their seat because I’m a woman. I would, however, think it kind for someone to offer me a seat if I’m an obviously pregnant woman. Do you have kids or carried a pregnancy to term? Believe me, it’s no picnic to be 7 months pregnant and have to stand because no one will get up for you. It is often physically PAINFUL, and for someone to choose not to recognize it is rude.
Most of my friends growing up were guys. And FYI, I don’t believe the quote was just talking about WOMEN in general, but about PREGNANT women, hence the reason why it’s the quote of the day.
Michael, I know exactly what you mean about blanking out. It definitely happens!
I, too, have asked people to stand for other passengers before. Just last week there were a bunch of people sitting down and this really old guy got on. I was already standing but I expected someone to stand up for him – no one did. The train started and he almost fell down, and I caught him by the arm. So I simply turned to the bench on my left and said, “Will someone please let this man sit down?” Three people closed their books and stood up – I think they probably just hadn’t noticed. Sometimes what seems inconsiderate may just be a genuine lack of attention – not that that makes it ok, but it’s a bit better. Whenever I find myself getting really annoyed by people’s behavior, I try to take a breath and simply ASK THEM to change it – you’d be surprised how often that works!
Yeah Kel, I don’t think pregnant women are the same as ”the guys” either – OR “the girls” for that matter – hence why I offer my seat to anyone who appears to have a reason to need it. If pregnant women were just like “one of the guys,” I’d still offer my seat to them – that’s what I mean. If there were, like, a pregnant guy standing there somehow, I’d expect anyone – man or woman – to offer their seat. Same for a pregnant woman. So I don’t think this is really about feminists wanting women to be like the guys. I think it’s mostly about other things.
Kudos to Annabelle for saying this, but unfortunately, I think women are largely to blame for the death of chivalry and gestures of nobility on the part of men. And I for one, would have no objection to being offered a seat simply because of my gender. It’s a small way men can show respect and protectiveness toward women and the world was a better place when people behaved this way. I miss men being men and women being women. Modern “feminism” has destroyed the beauty of the difference between the sexes.
I don’t want to be treated like a man. And I don’t expect a man to behave like a woman.
I think one of the reasons why men have begun to view pregnant women the way they have is because they’ve been beaten down for a while and told “don’t treat me any differently” by feminists (I’m not anti-feminist, btw). I think they just don’t separate the two very well at times.
I also think sometimes they fear a backlash if they offer a woman their seat. I’ve seen some pretty militant women who get offended that anyone would be chivalrous toward them, because it’s so “antiquated” and they think men acting that way view women as “less equal.”
I don’t ride public transportation, but I would be offended if a man offered me a seat just because I’m female. Chivalry, even if it’s well-intended, propagates and reinforces harmful heteronormative ideas about gender. I treat other people as equals and expect to be treated as an equal in return. That includes pregnant women. If you can’t stand for a few minutes on a public bus or train then you probably have more serious problems than disinterested passengers. A gendered norm that pregnant women are weaker or less capable than even women who aren’t pregnant is just as unacceptable as a gendered norm that women are less capable than men.
“It’s a small way men can show respect and protectiveness toward women and the world was a better place when people behaved this way.”
These two things can’t coexist. Treating another adult with “protectiveness” necessarily signifies a lack of respect. Men are not guard dogs and I don’t expect them to patronize me in that manner.
Its called chivalry. And it should NOT be dead but thanks to bra-burning, panties-in-a-knot, phallus-hating feminists it is. A woman SHOULD be offered a seat by a man, pregnant or not. Its a sign of respect. When I was pregnant so many men let the door slam right in my face. It annoyed me to no end. I am not a feminist. I never asked to be treated “like one of the guys”. And yet here are these men with no common courtesy.
I always hold open the door for other people, men included and I am so impressed when they say “No, after you.” I show deference to older people not because they’re so ancient I’m afraid they’ll collapse if I don’t but out of respect for the years they’ve lived that I haven’t.
What is wrong with showing deference and respect and chivalry? I am teaching my son chivalry believe me. We were going into MacD’s and I opened the door as a few women came to the door and my son started to march through and I pulled him back telling him “No, ladies first!” and let the women come through. One woman stopped and made a fuss and thanked me for teaching my son to be a gentleman.
If you can’t stand for a few minutes on a public bus or train then you probably have more serious problems than disinterested passengers.
It’s called “being in the 3rd trimester of pregnancy.” http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/pregnancy/PR00009
You’re ridiculous, joan.
Amen, Jennifer!!
Sydney, your comment made me think of the movie “Titanic.” Remember how that movie made the men who got onto lifeboats before the women and children look?
I think if some men can give up their lives for women and children, the least a dude on a bus could do is give up his seat to a pregnant woman.
joan
I don’t ride public transportation, but I would be offended if a man offered me a seat just because I’m female.
Of course you would. You seem to have a few screws loose and cant accept a kind gesture for what it is.
I had to ride the BN into Chicago while I was pregnant and, while I wasnt offered a seat every time I was on the train when I was offered one it was invariably it was a very young guy <25. The others men just ignored me. Well, it gives me hope for the younger generation!
Does anyone actually take Joan seriously anymore? I suppose you wouldn’t offer your seat to someone who had sprained his/her ankle either. It IS physically painful to stand in one place for a long period of time when you’re pregnant and it’s just a gesture of decency and kindness to offer your seat to someone who needs it more than you do. Or is kindness not in your definition of Christianity either?
Kel,
I read somewhere that the men on the Titanic absolutely did not act like that and some liberties were obviously taken with filming. :)
I would gladly give up my seat for a pregnant woman and was always grateful for the men and women that gave up their seat for me. Those last couple weeks of pregnancy are painful.
It’s called manners. Common courtesy. My sons know exactly what I am talking about.
I don’t take Joanie seriously. I think he/she is hilarious!!
You give any man the finger who offers his seat to you on a bus, Joan!! Read them the riot act!! Tell them what for!! Let your feathers get all ruffled!! Yell about harmful heteronormative ideas about gender!! Start screaming about gender equality and how even though you don’t have a penis you are just like a man!! Go you!
So I’m going to be the dissenting voice here and say that this sounds really, really whiney to me. “Oh, I’m pregnant, so the whole world should revolve around meeee! Everyone must give me their seats on the subway and make way when I walk down the sidewalk because I am pregnant and that makes me queen!” This kind of entitlement attitude makes my teeth hurt, it’s so irritating. And the real gem here is at the end. “When I lookd down at your pathetic, indifferent faces, I don’t see men. I just see failures and losers, and I want to puke. And it’s not just morning sickness.“ Honestly, with this kind of hostility towards men, it’s a wonder she managed to get close enough to one to get pregnant in the first place.
For all joan is an idiot, she’s trying to make a good point here, although–as usual with her points–she’s making it badly. The difference here is a subtle one. If a man is “chivalrous” because he wants to be (maybe he just likes the ladies and holding doors is a good way to get some flirts in, or maybe he holds doors for everybody, man or woman), then whatever. But when you have a man who is “chivalrous” because he feels like he ought to be, then we have another situation. Because this man is looking a women as a group of persons who require different treatment than the “norm.” It separates women from men, and makes men a baseline. How this man acts around other men is how he is when he’s himself. But women are either so fearsome or so delicate that he must tiptoe around their sensibilities, mind all his Ps and Qs, and be nicer to them than he would to “normal people” (i.e., men).
This behavior, as a social requirement, others women, and does perpetuate a view that they are weaker. “Women can not be made to stand because they are delicate. A man ought to give them his seat.” “Women can not carry their own luggage because they are weak. A man ought to lift heavy loads for them.” Now, we spend a great deal of time saying women are strong, capable persons in their own right. And this is a contrast to the abortion defenders who are constantly going on about how women are too weak/desperate/cringing/wussed out/insert-other-synonym-for-cowardly-here to undergo the terrible strain of being pregnant. I think that the pro-abortion line is a load of crap. And many of you have said the same before. So, if a woman can stand the strain of being pregnant, I’m fairly certain she can handle standing on a bus ride for twenty minutes.
If people want to give up their seats to pregnant women for the same reason that they would want to help someone–male, female, or alien–carry a heavy load somewhere (because it’s just nice to help people when you can), then I have no complaints. When people start doing it solely because the person is a woman, then it means they see women as a class of people who necessitate different treatment, and that is indicative of a very serious problem.
Alice,
How would you know the reasons behind why someone is giving up their seat to a woman? Why would you care WHY they are doing it? Are you going to ask them why?
A woman has a right to refuse to take the seat offered.
Well, now I find that younger people are offering me their seats on public transporation, and since I’m obviously not pregnant, the only reason could be that I’m old.
And that, folks, is depressing!
Sydney wrote:
We were going into MacD’s and I opened the door as a few women came to the door and my son started to march through and I pulled him back telling him “No, ladies first!” and let the women come through. One woman stopped and made a fuss and thanked me for teaching my son to be a gentleman.
:) Sydney, you’re my hero! Well done!
My wife often laments the fact that men don’t seem to have any inclination to treat women like ladies, anymore (in many aspects, actually), and that my practice of opening the car door (and what-have-you) for her is depressingly out-of-the-norm.
Any good trend that is fading can be brought back, given enough gumption, I say!
I think it’s nice to offer a seat to someone in need – as a matter of courtesy. An act of kindness, if you will.
I ride the bus all the time here – and I see women come on, struggling with a couple of children and a stroller, or an older person – it is very nice to offer a seat. And if I ended up standing – no problem – but being ill or post-surgery it would be lovely for someone to offer a seat.
Philly, I remember the first time a clerk called me “ma’am.” I was shocked, and felt humbled and old not to be a “miss” anymore. But worse, there was some kind of invisible stamp left on me: after that it was “ma’am” every time, all over. What? Was there some kind of old registry that I suddenly belonged to? Ah. to be a miss again.
Carla
December 16th, 2010 at 3:15 pm
No, of course I’m not going to interrogate total strangers on their motives. But I care for exactly the reasons I laid out above: believing that you must treat women in a manner outside the norm (or how you would treat men) is something you would only do because you believe women themselves are outside the norm. It’s othering and insulting. Even if you’re doing it to put women on a pedestal, you’re still removing them from the realm of normal people. And putting people on pedestals has a wealth of problems of its own.
But you are right in that there are better ways to handle this than making a fuss at random people who, even if they are engaging in this sort of othering behavior, are at least well-intentioned. Besides, maybe it is a guy who just likes to flirt with people. Nothing wrong with that. ;)
I see nothing wrong with men opening doors for women, or offering a seat on a bus. It is caring. It is kind. We need as much of that as we can get in this world.
I guess we will agree to disagree on that, Alice.
Believe me when I saw my 7th grader opening doors for his fellow classmates(female and male)my heart swelled with pride.
“I see nothing wrong with men opening doors for women, or offering a seat on a bus. It is caring. It is kind. We need as much of that as we can get in this world.”
But see, Carla, we do need as much of that as we can get in this world! So why limit it to the men -> women direction? Why not just have PEOPLE open doors for EACH OTHER and offer EACH OTHER seats?
Alice,
I can see, in some light, your objection to being offered a seat to the degree that it is because a man sees a woman to be inferior/weaker/less capable. However, for me it is more about honoring a woman for what she is able to do. Only a woman is able to carry new life inside her until that baby is able to live and function outside the womb. This is a precious gift. It is also a physically taxing event. The offer of a seat is simply a small thank-you gift. After a long day of work or perhaps a uncomfortable night’s sleep for a pregnant woman, that gift is often appreciated. That is similarly why I try to do it for older women and young women who are not (at least visibly) pregnant, too. It is a thank-you for what their gender is able to do that my gender cannot. And despite what joan or some others may screech, there are fundamental differences between men and women. And I truly thank God for that.
Now, I have had pregnant women politely tell me “No thanks, I prefer to stand.” Fine. They’ve not been rude about it or taken visible offense, and I will certainly respect their desires and not insist that “Oh you must sit you fragile creature who surely needs help with all basic functions!” Chivalry is about respect, not patronization.
Thank you, Michael!! A breath of fresh air!!
Alexandra,
I PERSONALLY have no problem with men opening doors for me, offering to carry a package or taking my grocery cart. I love it!
I am not limiting anything so to you I say Go for it!!
I read somewhere that the men on the Titanic absolutely did not act like that and some liberties were obviously taken with filming.
That’s probably true, Carla. They probably didn’t. But what I thought was interesting is that they would portray those men as cowards who tried to get on the boats before the women and children. Chivalry and self-sacrifice were clearly being lauded in those scenes!
Michael, excellent post!! :)
These two things can’t coexist. Treating another adult with “protectiveness” necessarily signifies a lack of respect. Men are not guard dogs and I don’t expect them to patronize me in that manner.
I pity you, Joan. You have so much antagonism toward so many people for so many things. You can’t enjoy being a woman and you can’t enjoy a gentleman being a gentleman.
I feel a strong sense of protectiveness toward my children and also toward my husband because I love them and want to take care of them and keep them from harm. My husband also feels protective of us for the same reasons. Are you suggesting we don’t respect each other? What nonsense!
How sad that you would find a thoughtful man’s gesture of chivalry insulting and patronizing. That attitude is the evidence that too many women have forgotten how to be gentle and classy, and the reason why men have given up being noble and generous.
Thank you to all the commenters here who are raising their sons to be chivalrous and considerate. It would be wonderful to resurrect chivalry and teach people to once again behave with manners, tact, gentility, restraint and courtesy.
Ninek — there was a comedienne of a certain age who had a skit called “Today I Am A Ma’am” about growing older. Funny in a bittersweet way!
Alexandra: “I prefer that people not offer me a seat based on my gender, but if I’m struggling with something heavy etc then I always appreciate the kind gesture. Likewise I always offer my seat to a pregnant woman, to an elderly person, to someone holding a large bag etc, or just to someone who has that tired look about them – you never know when someone is simply feeling a bit under the weather and would love to get off their feet for a few minutes.”
Once again, Alexandra nails it. It’s not about gender or giving men the Rosa Parks (“back of the bus, jerk!”) treatment. It’s about need.
Michael: “When we reached the next stop, and the woman did not get off, I called out ‘Would someone please allow the pregnant woman carrying a toddler to sit down?!?’ It was amazing how quickly a couple of people reacted, though sadly the first one to respond was a woman, not a man.”
Why “sadly,” Michael? Do you loathe your own gender that much that you think an able-bodied man is less entitled to a seat than an able-bodied woman?
Jennifer: “And I for one, would have no objection to being offered a seat simply because of my gender. It’s a small way men can show respect and protectiveness toward women and the world was a better place when people behaved this way. I miss men being men and women being women. Modern ‘feminism’ has destroyed the beauty of the difference between the sexes…I don’t want to be treated like a man. And I don’t expect a man to behave like a woman.”
Holy good grief — how can one say so many off-the-mark things in one short post?
— If we are to expect an able-bodied man to offer up their seats to an able-bodied woman, then there is ZERO reason for a woman not to do the same for a man.
— Men ARE men and women ARE women. This is determined by the reproductive organs they have, and what their chromosome make-ups are. n = n. A man who is “behaving like a woman” is simply breaking free of ridiculous gender norms we hold people to (and then call them something other than a “real man” or “real woman” when they don’t adhere to the stereotypes).
Kel: “Sydney, your comment made me think of the movie Titanic. Remember how that movie made the men who got onto lifeboats before the women and children look?”
I had a letter published on the sexist chivalry-to-the-death attitude exemplified by Titanic. Yeah, those men were really “selfish,” weren’t they? Imagine: wanting to preserve your own life! The nerve! A woman who fights tooth-and-nail to save her life is called “brave;” the man who does the same is called a “coward.” Funny how that works.
Sydney: “We were going into MacD’s and I opened the door as a few women came to the door and my son started to march through and I pulled him back telling him ‘No, ladies first!’ and let the women come through.”
Really? I’ll be telling my kids to take turns going first. “Ladies first” is no better than women being treated as second-class citizens in the Middle East.
Likewise I always offer my seat to a pregnant woman, to an elderly person, to someone holding a large bag etc, or just to someone who has that tired look about them – you never know when someone is simply feeling a bit under the weather and would love to get off their feet for a few minutes.
I agree with this.
I had a letter published on the sexist chivalry-to-the-death attitude exemplified by Titanic. Yeah, those men were really “selfish,” weren’t they? Imagine: wanting to preserve your own life! The nerve! A woman who fights tooth-and-nail to save her life is called “brave;” the man who does the same is called a “coward.” Funny how that works.
Wow, you can tell this little quote of the day really struck a nerve with people! lol
Yes, the ones who were shown getting on the boats before women and children were portrayed as selfish. Let’s face it – as much as feminism seeks to change the whole idea, a man who shoves kids and ladies out of the way to their deaths to save themselves is gonna be viewed as a hideous human being. The protectiveness a man often feels over women and children is not unnatural! If there’s only one thing I do NOT thank modern feminism for, it’s that – the view that somehow a man’s instinct to protect women and children is unnatural and should be stuffed.
Really? I’ll be telling my kids to take turns going first. “Ladies first” is no better than women being treated as second-class citizens in the Middle East.
Did you actually think about this before you wrote it?
A woman who fights tooth-and-nail to save her life is called “brave;
Not if it’s at the expense of the lives of others. One could use a similar argument for abortion. I think a man giving up his life for others is brave, and I’d think a woman giving up her life for others would be brave as well.
Really? You think there weren’t women pushing people the hell out of the way to get to the lifeboats, Kel? You think they were treated as disdainfully as the men who did the same thing? If I tell you the building we’re in will explode in two minutes, and you have two thousand people standing in front of you waiting to get out, and you’re not sure you’re going to make it, will you wait there patiently, for the line to begin moving? How simple it is for the safe to criticize the actions of those on a sinking ocean liner.
The real tragedy — aside from those who expect men to cheerfully sink to a watery grave — is that anyone needs to fight over lifeboats at all. Any ship should have just as much lifeboat capacity as people on the ship. Maybe twice as many. Impractical? So is drowning.
The real tragedy — aside from those who expect men to cheerfully sink to a watery grave — is that anyone needs to fight over lifeboats at all. Any ship should have just as much lifeboat capacity as people on the ship. Maybe twice as many. Impractical? So is drowning.
It’s obvious by your use of language that you’re getting a little heated. I did not say anything about men “cheerfully” sinking to a watery grave. There was nothing cheerful about the Titanic; it was a horrible human tragedy. I know those who lived likely lost husbands and fathers. So, no, it’s not a happy thing. But they sacrificed themselves so their families could live. I know my husband would do the same. Would he and any man be afraid? I’m sure. It’s only normal to be terrified of impending death. But to shove those feelings out of the way and to sacrifice oneself – to love one’s wife as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself up for her – to me, that’s what a true hero would do.
I’m going to step back from this conversation now, as it’s obvious some people have eaten too many modern feminist bonbons and are very unhappy with the rest of us.
“It’s obvious by your use of language that you’re getting a little heated.”
Huh-kay. Just call me angry and tell me to calm down rather than answer my questions.
“But they sacrificed themselves so their families could live. I know my husband would do the same. Would he and any man be afraid? I’m sure. It’s only normal to be terrified of impending death. But to shove those feelings out of the way and to sacrifice oneself – to love one’s wife as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself up for her – to me, that’s what a true hero would do.”
Great. So there’s no reason, then, to limit such unselfish behavior to men. Women are just as capable of sacrificing themselves as are men. Except when you suggest that, then dying so that others may live suddenly becomes “unthinkable,” whereas when men were asked to do it it was called “valiant.”
“I’m going to step back from this conversation now, as it’s obvious some people have eaten too many modern feminist bonbons and are very unhappy with the rest of us.”
Aaaaand…now you’re going after “The Feminists.” I don’t agree with Joan on many things here, but she has a better grasp of this issue. And again: props to Alexandra. Good to see the Princess Complex isn’t the deciding factor for everyone.
I agree with Alexandra and bmmg39 on this topic. I debated on whether to open my big mouth because this kinda reminds me of the Disney princess thread and we all seem to follow similar routes that we did there.
I think it comes down to need. I think abortion came about in the first place because of the different treatment between the sexes and equal rights went too far. This woman probably didn’t get offered a seat because everyone picked up on her angry diva vibes. Wow.
I realize the genders are different but I don’t expect men to treat me better than they would a man just because I am female. I don’t need men to open the door for me or give up a seat for me. Both my husband and I hold doors for both genders of all ages. Yes, if I am late stages of pregnancy or have my hands full or in a cast or have little children along that is a different story but not just because I am female. I personally find this patronizing. I would give my seat up to a man holding a little one or if he were in a cast, etc.
I don’t believe to love one’s wife as as Christ loved the Church means my husband should hold the door and give up seats for every female that is nearby but should treat me, his wife, with love and respect. And I should return this love and respect.
The Miss vs. Maam thing bugs me too. So does the Miss and Mrs. thing. Women are still separated based on age and marital status. We don’t have separate terms for men for age and marital status. But I also don’t like when I hear things said to boys like, “Be a big boy, don’t cry.” “You sound like a little girl.” “Grow a set of
b-lls.” “Take it like a man.”
Call me a modern prolife feminist who love bonbons. :)
bmmg39 — okay, raise your kids how you want. I’m going to raise my son to be a gentleman whether you agree or not.
Except when you suggest that, then dying so that others may live suddenly becomes “unthinkable,” whereas when men were asked to do it it was called “valiant.”
‘K, whoa, hold up. Where did I say any of this?
Aaaaand…now you’re going after “The Feminists.” I don’t agree with Joan on many things here, but she has a better grasp of this issue. And again: props to Alexandra. Good to see the Princess Complex isn’t the deciding factor for everyone.
I’m going after modern feminists, who seem to be afraid to let anyone see any weaknesses whatsoever in them. God forbid anyone should assert that a man’s self-sacrifice might actually be rooted in a desire to do good, as opposed to their desire to keep them wimmins under their thumbs.
You don’t know me at all. I was raised by a single, very independent mother, who never “needed” a man to help her accomplish anything. She taught me many things. I’ve never had anything handed to me in my life, so you might want to rethink that “Princess Complex” assertion. Have a good night.
I don’t believe to love one’s wife as as Christ loved the Church means my husband should hold the door and give up seats for every female that is nearby but should treat me, his wife, with love and respect. And I should return this love and respect.
I wasn’t talking about holding a door when I said that, but thanks for misconstruing my comments, Praxedes. We were talking about sacrificing one’s life, if you would read the post where I referenced that Scripture.
I agree that love and respect should be returned. And in fact, AMAZINGLY, I do not believe I said otherwise.
I can’t think of another thread where my comments (and those of many others) have been quite so misconstrued by other pro-lifers. Frankly, I have found it quite disturbing. You all have put enough words in my mouth for one night. Now I’ll go eat my founding foremother feminist bonbons. See ya.
Sydney: “bmmg39 — okay, raise your kids how you want. I’m going to raise my son to be a gentleman whether you agree or not.”
Keep misrepresenting my statement. Raise your son to be a gentleman all you wish. But also raise your daughter to be a gentlewoman, with the same responsibilities.
Kel: “I wasn’t talking about holding a door when I said that, but thanks for misconstruing my comments, Praxedes. We were talking about sacrificing one’s life, if you would read the post where I referenced that Scripture.”
Again: should women be expected to unselfishly sacrifice their lives (so that others, including men, can live) in cases of emergency, or do you think that’s something that should only be left for men? This is the crux of the issue (and my complaints), and I ask only because you (and others) have mentioned only the idea of men doing it up to this point.
Nope women should be kind also – and I am not sure where that got missed. Being kind is not only for men, it’s for women also. goodnight.
One of the best t.v. shows (from my generation) that exhibited chivalry was the Brady Bunch! I remember one episode where the boys and men STAND up when Mrs. Brady walks in the room. It’s just a gesture of respect! And, for the most part, we women are weaker physically, not weaker in dignity. The genders are equal in dignity, created in the image of God, etc. , but I sure as heck can’t bench press what my brother can. Isn’t this basic biology? Dr. Nadal?
bmmg, at 8:43 I said the following: I think a man giving up his life for others is brave, and I’d think a woman giving up her life for others would be brave as well.
I don’t believe any woman should feel a sense of “entitlement” simply because she is female. I don’t like women who believe they deserve to be treated like princesses while they treat their men like court jesters. I believe in mutual respect between men and women. However, I also believe that there is nothing horribly wrong, misinformed, or archaic about a man who acts in a gentlemanly fashion by giving a pregnant woman or an elderly person his seat on a bus/train. If I saw an elderly person or pregnant woman or a man who was struggling under a heavy load, I would give up my seat. That is showing consideration for another human being.
I also believe that a husband is the spiritual head of a Christian household (if he’s living up to his end of his the bargain, anyway). Therefore, his being protective of his wife and children should not seem unusual or wrong in any way. However, as I’ve already said, I did not grow up in a household like that and therefore my mother was the spiritual head of our household, which wasn’t easy or ideal, but she did a pretty darn good job.
Bucharest, Romania is the place to be pregnant. I always got a seat!
Jennifer, Kel,
Excellent comments…
“Jennifer: “And I for one, would have no objection to being offered a seat simply because of my gender. It’s a small way men can show respect and protectiveness toward women and the world was a better place when people behaved this way. I miss men being men and women being women. Modern ‘feminism’ has destroyed the beauty of the difference between the sexes…I don’t want to be treated like a man. And I don’t expect a man to behave like a woman.”
Amen.
feminism is boring.
BMMG39;”should women be expected to unselfishly sacrifice their lives (so that others, including men, can live) in cases of emergency, or do you think that’s something that should only be left for men?”
Yes Maam, that should be left to the men.
Wow.
To those that really do not appreciate a man opening a door for a woman or allowing her a seat on the bus I am totally curious.
How does this play out in your own lives? What do you say to a man who offers you a seat on a bus? What do you do when a man opens a door for you? How do you react to it?
Obviously we have struck a nerve with some so I can’t help but imagine what you honestly think or say in real life.
Carla, I say “thank you.” And I’ve found men to always say the same when I hold the door for them.
Kel, I did not mean to miscontrue your comments and did not refer to what I thought you meant. I was talking about what it means to me.
I just want to be treated equal, no better, no worse.
“Carla, I say “thank you.” And I’ve found men to always say the same when I hold the door for them.”
Ditto, Praxedes! These stupid conversations always become a bunch of strawman arguments. As if, if you PREFER not to be treated differently based on your gender, you immediately become a drooling neanderthal with no sense of etiquette. I say thank you when someone does me a favor. When someone offers me something I don’t need, I say, “No, but thank you for offering.” I, in turn, offer aid and favors to other people who seem like they could use the help; and I don’t get annoyed if and when they turn me down. It’s a nice world to live in! Random acts of kindness, no gender requirement necessary! :)
Judging by the anger this thread brought up I guess I am wondering more for bmmg39.
What thoughts are going through your head when you see a man opening a door for a woman?
What do you do when offered the same?
I don’t think this conversation is stupid at all and what I have learned is people have opinions that are extremely different than mine and I am trying to understand this point of view that frankly, I do not understand. At all.
Oh okay bmmg39 but I don’t have a daughter ;-) but if I ever do have a little girl I am going to raise her to be a lady. To be respectful of others and respectful of herself. Does that meet your approval?
At the risk of getting my head bitten off again, I have to once again argue for Knighthood.
I’m not at all saying that women can’t open doors for others (I do this all the time) or that women are allowed to be divas with a princess complex (I despise this in women!). Common courtesy and respect are genderless. On that I completely agree.
But I do think something has been lost between the sexes that was precious and beautiful. The sense of awe and admiration and tenderness that used to be expressed by gallant men and fair ladies. I take no offense whatsoever in acknowledging that women are the weaker sex (physically) because this is how God made us. A woman’s strength lies in other places. Therefore, it is not patronizing or insulting for a man to assist a woman by offering her a seat, especially if she’s pregnant! It’s good for a man to have the chance to show protectiveness toward a woman – it encourages him to be gallant and respectful toward women. It encourages him to think of her first.
It’s good for women to have the chance to be thankful to a man for his chivalry. It encourages women to be mindful of the many things a good man does to provide for his family. Yes, I said it. A good man is supposed to provide for his family.
It encourages women to see men in a positive light and treat them with respect and admiration, not derision.
In our world today, this has been lost (Thanks to modern, man-hating “feminism”) and the result is that men don’t know how to treat a lady anymore. Does she want to be treated just like a man? It leads men to wonder how they should behave at all around women. Because frankly, too many women don’t behave like ladies anymore. They’re crass, unruly, self-centered, immodest, and plain rude. Can’t hardly blame a guy for being a jerk around a woman like that.
I’m saying that women behaving like fair ladies inspires a man to be a gallant knight. And that is never a bad thing. I would love to see men and women learn how to behave this way again.
Jennifer!!!
THANK YOU!! Love what you wrote and totally agree!!
With my oldest son I have given him word pictures of knighthood. When he sees someone picking on his little sister he is to “draw the sword” over her in protection and love. She is one tough little girl on her own but having the big bro there for her is comforting. Indeed. She has two little brothers as well who will get the same word pictures.
Kel, I’m glad you’d give up your seat for a pregnant woman or elderly person, that you don’t like those who treat people like crap while expecting to be treated like royalty in return, and that you believe in mutual respect between the sexes. I’m also sure your mom did a great job, though I’m not sure how she got dragged into this.
As for the others…
Doe: “I remember one episode where the boys and men STAND up when Mrs. Brady walks in the room. It’s just a gesture of respect! And, for the most part, we women are weaker physically, not weaker in dignity. The genders are equal in dignity, created in the image of God, etc. , but I sure as heck can’t bench press what my brother can.”
I can only presume, Doe, that Mrs. Brady extended the same kindness to her husband by standing when HE entered the room. Right? Hmmm?
And what does how much you can bench-press have to do with anything? If you’re going to demand that men show you a certain courtesy, you should be ready to show them the same courtesy.
[BMMG39; ”should women be expected to unselfishly sacrifice their lives (so that others, including men, can live) in cases of emergency, or do you think that’s something that should only be left for men?”]
jasper: “Yes Maam, that should be left to the men.”
Other that the fact that I’m not a “Maam” or a “Miss,” you’re demonstrating what is precisely the problem here. If risking one’s life is such a noble gesture, then it shouldn’t be expected ONLY of us men and boys.
Carla: “Judging by the anger this thread brought up I guess I am wondering more for bmmg39…What thoughts are going through your head when you see a man opening a door for a woman?”
I think, “That was nice of him. I’m sure she’d probably do the same for him. At least — I hope so.”
“What do you do when offered the same?”
I hold the door (sometimes behind me, going through the door first, sometimes letting the other person go through first) for both males and females. And both males and females (including children AND adults) have done the same for me. My experience is the same as Alexandra’s, in spite of the fact that she’s female and I’m male.
“I don’t think this conversation is stupid at all and what I have learned is people have opinions that are extremely different than mine and I am trying to understand this point of view that frankly, I do not understand. At all.”
What’s not to get? Re-read what Alexandra is saying if what I’m writing isn’t working. We’re in favor of common courtesy. She’s right: these are straw arguments. Some of you seem to think that if we resent the focus on MEN doing nice things for WOMEN then that must mean we’re in favor of universal rudeness. The reverse is true: we’re in favor of universal KINDNESS, practiced by everybody towards everybody, with the same societal expectations of women as for men (with respect to both courtesy and heroic behavior). It’s really not all that revolutionary. Some even used to know it as the Golden Rule.
so why did you get so angry?
“I take no offense whatsoever in acknowledging that women are the weaker sex (physically) because this is how God made us.”
As a woman who loads and drives trucks, uses power tools, and knows how to weld – and makes a living doing all of these things, right alongside the guys – I take offense at that. Surely IN GENERAL women are weaker than men, but lots of individual women are stronger than lots of individual men. I am stronger than LOTS of guys. It’s not like I’m some genetic freak either. I’m 5’0″ and 105 lbs.
I loathe assumptions like that because I have to swim upstream against them every single day. I have to prove them false every friggin time I work with a new person. Whenever I’m with a new crew they always assume that they’re going to have to pick up my slack and so they treat me with a little bit of resentment for even being there, until I prove myself yet again, and it sucks. Really, the assumption should be that if I’ve been hired for the job, I can do the job – just like it is for everybody else.
“A woman’s strength lies in other places.”
I think INDIVIDUAL people’s strength lies in INDIVIDUALLY DIVERSE places. I guess I see far more differences in strengths and weaknesses between individual women (or individual men) than between men and women as general categories. Assuming these things based on gender, and treating people differently as a result, makes no sense whatsoever to me. It’s not like I’m saying “be crappy to everyone” – just “be nice to everyone!” Pink fluffy hugs for all!
bmmg39 and Alexandra,
As one of the men who still holds to the ideals of chivalry (hence my screen name), let me try to clarify:
1) I don’t think anyone (male or female, chivalrous or feminist, or anything in-between) is suggesting that any instance of a woman holding the door for a man is bad, evil, or even gauche. I’m (personally) certainly not insulted when a woman holds the door for me, for example!
2) There is, however, a radical paradigm gap between your view and mine. I believe that it’s fitting, right and proper for me to defer to the needs and the dignity of a lady, even in minor matters (such as standing when a lady comes into the room, opening the car door (or other door) for a lady, allowing a lady to go first through a door, surrendering my place on a lifeboat if (God forbid) I were trapped on a sinking ship, etc. The paradigm is one of REVERENCE, not one of condescension, sexism, or any other such tripe.
Honestly: I’m Catholic, and I treat the Holy Eucharist (and the sacred vessels which contain Him) with utmost reverence; but would you conclude that I think Jesus’ Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity are somehow “weak and inferior” to me, thereby? I hope not! I also treat priests with special reverence and defer to them in many social ways, because they act “in Persona Christi”–in the Person of Christ; but would you therefore conclude that I think they’re all “inferior wimps” who are “incapable of doing things for themselves”? I hope not! (Some of them could crush me in an arm-wrestling match!)
Reverence (and the social deference which often accompanies it) has nothing, whatsoever, to do with any disparagement of someone else’s abilities or dignity. I would open the door for a lady even if she could bench-press three times my own weight. I would let a pregnant lady have my seat on a bus even if she were a world-class wrestler who could stand on her feet for a week without breaking a sweat. It’s NOT a function of seeing people as “lesser” or “greater”; those terms are appropriate for a power struggle, not for relationships between human persons. I revere womanhood, frankly, because God hard-wired me (and all men) to revere womanhood.
I heard the story of a woman who, when a man tried to hold a door for her, snarled, “I suppose you hold doors because you think women can’t do it for themselves!” He replied, quite calmly: “No, ma’am; I do it because I’m a gentleman.” Just so.
Paladin, THANK YOU! God bless you. You hit the nail on the head. Reverence — not disrespect or condescension. Thank you for saying it so well.
Paladin, I appreciate your response, but would like to note that I didn’t even mention the issue of “women are generally weaker” until someone else brought it up .That’s not really the point for me any more than it is for you! (happily! we agree on that!) I just consider it insulting – to men, not women; but then indirectly to women in some ways – that I am MEANT to be revered, as a woman, but bmmg is NOT MEANT to be revered, as a man. He is every bit an individual human being worthy of respect and admiration and love and reverence as I am – and I’d never do anything but treat him as such! To me it’s like, when I go out with my best friend, who is a man – he doesn’t always pay, and nor do I. We trade back and forth. There is something WONDERFUL about treating someone to a meal, and similarly something wonderful about accepting the gift of a meal. Why would either of us want to take either of those pleasures away from each other?
What these discussions always seem to sound like, to me, is ”All people deserve reverence. But some people deserve more reverence than others.” To which I simply ask: why?
I’m also sure your mom did a great job, though I’m not sure how she got dragged into this.
LOL! Mom got dragged into this when you insinuated that I, along with other more “traditional” pro-lifers here, were accepting of the “Princess” mentality. She also got dragged into it because every time I mention my beliefs about men/husbands, I invariably get labeled as a person who believes what I do about men because that’s how people think I was raised.
And wow, bmmg. Didn’t realize you were a man. That puts things in a very different perspective for me that you, as a MAN, would hold the views you do.
“lots of individual women are stronger than lots of individual men.”
I am stronger than LOTS of guys.”
LOL!!!
Why is that funny, jasper?
Kel
December 17th, 2010 at 12:46 pm
And wow, bmmg. Didn’t realize you were a man. That puts things in a very different perspective for me that you, as a MAN, would hold the views you do.
Why? bmmg39 has said things that I, as a woman, mostly agree with. In fact, he’s said a lot of things that I, as a woman, also said myself. That being the case, why is his saying them any different from a woman saying them when he’s saying the exact same things?
In an attempt to try and lighten up what seems to be a touchy subject I will tell a true story that happened a few years back:
I was out at a local tavern and a young couple was spatting. It got quite heated and the man was calling the woman disrespectful names. After things settled down, an old southern gentleman commented in his drawl quite seriously, “I can’t believe I just saw that. We southern gentlemen treat our women with respect in public.”
Alice, it puts his comments regarding the men and women on the Titanic in a different light for me personally.
Alexandra,
I just have a hard time believing you’re stronger than a lot of men you know. Don’t me wrong, I think women can handle pain better and are usually pretty stong in the legs but not so in the upper body…
Alexandra wrote:
I just consider it insulting – to men, not women; but then indirectly to women in some ways – that I am MEANT to be revered, as a woman, but bmmg is NOT MEANT to be revered, as a man.
I wouldn’t put it that way, at all; we’re both to be revered, since we’re both created in the Image and Likeness of God (cf. Genesis 1:27). But since we’re created differently, doesn’t it strike you as at least possible that the TYPE of reverence might be different, corresponding to our very real and primal differences?
He is every bit an individual human being worthy of respect and admiration and love and reverence as I am – and I’d never do anything but treat him as such!
Of course… and no one else is saying anything to the contrary.
To me it’s like, when I go out with my best friend, who is a man – he doesn’t always pay, and nor do I. We trade back and forth.
You did catch the part about this “not being evil”, right?
There is something WONDERFUL about treating someone to a meal, and similarly something wonderful about accepting the gift of a meal. Why would either of us want to take either of those pleasures away from each other?
It depends on your point of view. From the Christian point of view, the man is “hardwired” for “active service”, so to speak… to lay down his life for his bride. It’s in his spiritual DNA, if you will. Likewise, the woman is “hardwired” to receive such a gift, and then transform that into new life. This is true on the biological level as well as on the spiritual level.
Like it or not, whether it’s popular or not, men and women respond very differently to social interactions, and they have very different social and interpersonal needs. A recent study by Shaunti Feldhahn had Shaunti asking various questions of a room of women and men (who were segregated into separate parts of the auditorium. Some of the answers were quite telling: when she asked, “Who in this room would rather be respected, even if they weren’t loved?”, all the women GASPED when virtually every male hand went up! Likewise, when Shaunti asked, “Who in this room would rather be loved, even if they weren’t respected?”, all of the MEN gasped when virtually every female hand went up! In fact, the very few men who didn’t answer at all complained that their understanding of “love” REQUIRED respect, and that the question didn’t make sense, otherwise.
It sheds new light on Ephesians 5:33: “However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.” (NIV) Doesn’t that seem lop-sided? But it isn’t; God Himself, through St. Paul, was prescribing precisely what we needed, respectively as men and women, and “modern research” has just now started catching up to the idea.
“But since we’re created differently, doesn’t it strike you as at least possible that the TYPE of reverence might be different, corresponding to our very real and primal differences?”
I don’t know, Paladin – like I said earlier, I see far more variation among individuals of the same gender than between the two genders. Obviously men and women are physically different, but in terms of every single thing about them save for the defining physical characteristics of male/female, I don’t really see much use in classifying ‘types of reverence’ based on gender.
I cannot imagine a definition of love that does not also include respect.
Jasper – believe it, but feel free to laugh and illustrate precisely why I loathe when people assume that INDIVIDUAL WOMEN are [insert quality here] simply because WOMEN IN GENERAL TEND TO BE [insert quality here]. This afternoon I basically ran up a flight of stairs with an 85-lb bass amp. It was not an unusual occurrence. Am I stronger than the average carpenter? No. Are there a lot of non-carpenter guys I’m stronger than? Yes.
BMMG39:
My comment about benchpressing was just an example of how I believe the genders are different and that we females and males differ physically. I also believe we have different natures and take on different roles. Anyone who parents boys and girls will tell you they’re, with some exceptions I’m sure, totally different. No, I don’t believe this is societal. I just think this is how we’re designed by the Almighty. I love having my husband open doors for me and protecting me! It’s what makes me love him more and actually desire him more. Yes, we should extend courtesty to all our fellow human beings. Yes, I would give up my seat for a pregnant woman, a disabled person, or an elderly person. When I was at the movies recently, while using the restroom I let a pregnant woman go before me. This is not to toot my own horn. I just believe it is common courtesy. As I recall, Mrs. Brady ran to the door quite often when Mr. Brady returned home from work!
Paladin, again THANK YOU. Beautifully said. God bless you.
One of my friends was a female marine. She was GORGEOUS (men would basically slobber and become tongue-tied in her presence) but she was OVER 6 foot and was very very very strong. She was not masculine but she was muscular no doubt about it! She did two tours of duty in Iraq. She could kick any man’s butt I am convinced. But she still expected men to hold doors for her because she was a lady. Its not that women are weak, or on the flip side, its not that men should grovel at women’s feet. Its just chivalry and I think most (though I admit not all) women LIKE chivalry.
Sydney,
You raise a good point. I’m sure there are many women that could kick a guys’s butt-sorry for the slang. But, I think we need to be honest here. The vast majority of men are physically stronger than women and women like this. I would be very uncomfortable with being bigger physically than my husband (except for when I was pregnant). It’s just the facts of life. It doesn’t mean they are in any way superior. I’m sure if a poll was taken among females, the overwhelming majority would LOVE for a man to carry them through a burning house, for example, doors to be opened for them, men to stand when they walked into a room, for a seat to be offered, etc. Why, for heaven’s sake, why is the Twilight Series so popular? Women love and want to be cherished. It’s what we desire and want – a man to cherish and protect us. And, of course, men want to be taken care of also, but in different ways.
“Jasper – believe it”
No, I don’t, but it if makes you feel better believing you are stronger than many men, go ahead and believe it.
“She could kick any man’s butt I am convinced”
Ok.
Paladin: “The paradigm is one of REVERENCE, not one of condescension, sexism, or any other such tripe.”
I believe you are missing the point. While people argue back and forth whether or not one-sided chivalry (with doors, standing up, lifeboats, etc.) is sexist towards women, they’re missing how it’s blatantly sexist towards men.
Alexandra: “I just consider it insulting – to men, not women; but then indirectly to women in some ways – that I am MEANT to be revered, as a woman, but bmmg is NOT MEANT to be revered, as a man. He is every bit an individual human being worthy of respect and admiration and love and reverence as I am – and I’d never do anything but treat him as such! To me it’s like, when I go out with my best friend, who is a man – he doesn’t always pay, and nor do I. We trade back and forth.”
It’s getting difficult for me not to copy and paste every single word Alexandra is writing here. Her position seems to be almost identical to mine. And I thank her (again).
Kel: “Mom got dragged into this when you insinuated that I, along with other more ‘traditional’ pro-lifers here, were accepting of the ‘Princess’ mentality.”
You adhere to the Princess mentality only if you believe “men should stand for women”/”men should give up their bus seats to women”/”men should be willing to die in order to save women” and NEVER the reverse.
“And wow, bmmg. Didn’t realize you were a man. That puts things in a very different perspective for me that you, as a MAN, would hold the views you do.”
Pardon?
Why do so many have a tough time swallowing that men and boys are finally starting to stick up for themselves? That so many are tired of being treated as second-class citizens, unpaid bodyguards, and ATMs?
Paladin: “A recent study by Shaunti Feldhahn had Shaunti asking various questions of a room of women and men (who were segregated into separate parts of the auditorium. Some of the answers were quite telling: when she asked, ‘Who in this room would rather be respected, even if they weren’t loved?’, all the women GASPED when virtually every male hand went up!”
I’m the proud owner of two male hands that would not be going up. (I’m guessing Alexandra’s hands wouldn’t be going up for either question, either.) Going through life without being loved OR without being respected both seem like nightmares to me.
And it will be good of you to make your case without bringing God or your religion into it. It’s almost as if someone who does this is daring anyone else to continue disagreeing, at which point we’ll be “attacking” God or your faith. It’s a little like saying, “I believe kids oughta get a whuppin’ once in a while — hey, it’s just the way I was raised!” So now anyone who still argues otherwise is “attacking” the person’s parents. Drawing a line in the sand to quell future discussion.
Doe: “I’m sure if a poll was taken among females, the overwhelming majority would LOVE for a man to carry them through a burning house, for example, doors to be opened for them, men to stand when they walked into a room, for a seat to be offered, etc.”
I certainly don’t fantasize about the house burning down, but I think those others would be welcomed by a whole lotta people, men and women alike.
“Why, for heaven’s sake, why is the Twilight Series so popular?”
Good gosh. Just when we were thinking nothing was more toxic than the princess movies, along came Stephenie Meyer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUB1DFswMg0
Yup. Great lessons for the chill’ns there…
“Women love and want to be cherished. It’s what we desire and want – a man to cherish and protect us. And, of course, men want to be taken care of also, but in different ways.”
…and…the same ways, too.
Well, jasper, next time you’re in NYC I invite you to spend a day at work with me. I recently loaded 53 chain motors and two dozen cases of feeder cable onto a single truck (which means going vertical – fun!) and could have used your help. ;)
You have always assumed I’m a liar so I suppose it is comforting that you are, at least, consistent.
Jennifer,
:) High praise, coming from you! I was literally basking in the beauty of your posts on this thread alone! Preach it, sister!
Alexandra,
I don’t think you’re a liar at all… I know you’re a good person.
Jasper
Well, jasper, I hope you accept this gift on behalf of every obnoxious man I’ve ever worked with: http://tinyurl.com/25rguu5 ;)
Have a good weekend!
bmmg39 wrote, in reply to my comment:
[Paladin]
“The paradigm is one of REVERENCE, not one of condescension, sexism, or any other such tripe.”
[bmmg39]
I believe you are missing the point. While people argue back and forth whether or not one-sided chivalry (with doors, standing up, lifeboats, etc.) is sexist towards women, they’re missing how it’s blatantly sexist towards men.
Unless you’re using a non-pejorative definition of “sexist” (and you don’t seem to be doing that), I can’t understand why you’d say that. The usual (pejorative) usage of “sexist” implies a degradation or violation of one’s dignity, yes? How is my own human (male) dignity diminished by sacrificing of myself to show reverence toward a woman (e.g. opening doors for her, and other acts of chivalry/gentlemanliness)? In what way is my masculinity or human dignity undercut? I genuinely don’t understand your view, yet.
[Paladin]
“A recent study by Shaunti Feldhahn had Shaunti asking various questions of a room of women and men (who were segregated into separate parts of the auditorium. Some of the answers were quite telling: when she asked, ‘Who in this room would rather be respected, even if they weren’t loved?’, all the women GASPED when virtually every male hand went up!”
[bmmg39]
I’m the proud owner of two male hands that would not be going up. […] Going through life without being loved OR without being respected both seem like nightmares to me.
Well… of course! But that wasn’t the point. First, the questions was certainly an outrageously artificial hypothetical, and Shaunti and the entire room were well aware of that; it was akin to outrageous hypotheticals used in situational ethics: some moral principles are too subtle to see unless you “magnify” them through a far-fetched example (e.g. terrorist threatening to set off a nuclear bomb and kill millions in a city, unless you rape an innocent woman, etc.). Second, the question fleshed out the idea that men and women, as a rule, EXPERIENCE love and respect in very different ways. Men, as a rule, desire to feel esteemed and respected more than anything else; and women, as a rule, desire to feel connected with others. Men and women both want and need love and respect (and you’re quite right: they’re two sides of the same coin, and they’re inseparable), but men and women usually gravitate toward their respective sides of that same coin, if you will.
You must be aware of the phenomenon: it’s proverbial for men to respond to the agitation of a woman friend by trying to “fix” things, when they really only wanted a sympathetic ear; it’s also proverbial for women to try to take over (through advice or intervention) for a man who’s struggling with an issue, when that’s precisely what he DOESN’T want or need (since it undercuts his sense of competence and perceived ability to provide). Examples abound: women going to the ladies’ room in groups (while any man who dared to emulate that would rue the day–Bill Cosby had some funny skits to that effect); men refusing to ask for directions or help (note: this reflex often violates prudence!); women having a greatly increased ability to multi-task; men having a greatly increased ability to focus on a project to the exclusion of all else (wives: ever try to talk casually to your husband while he’s focused on an engrossing project, only to have to repeat everything to him afterward, perhaps several times?), and so on. Argue the wisdom (or lack thereof) of the particular examples, if you like, but it’s undeniable that men and women are simply “wired” differently.
You might also check out the work of Dr. Steven Stosny and Dr. Patricia Love (they wrote an excellent book called, “How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It”, which illustrates many of these points); for example, Dr. Stosny’s own research showed, over and over, that men and women have fundamentally different “primal fears”: a man’s greatest pain takes the idea, “I am a failure”, and a woman’s greatest pain takes the idea, “I am abandoned/unloved”. It’s not just our imagination, you know.
Modern feminism, while it has achieved some praiseworthy things, has (unfortunately) done its best to lay an axe to the root of masculinity/femininity (often by writing them off as “mere social constructs, which could be dismantled without harm”), and that’s a terrible mistake.
And it will be good of you to make your case without bringing God or your religion into it.
With all due respect, friend, I cannot disagree more strongly. The case *can* be made without explicit reference to religion, but only if I’m talking to someone who thinks that humans have an inherent dignity (above and beyond other animals, plants, rocks, etc.), and are not simply cosmic accidents/debris/rubbish… and I had no way to know whether you (and others of like mind) were of that camp, or not. (I’ve also found that atheists have a very difficult time explaining *why* humans deserve such reverence–why killing a human is murder, but killing a cockroach is not, etc.; but that’s a side point.) Besides: I do have a right to use my own views when making my own points, do I not?
It’s almost as if someone who does this is daring anyone else to continue disagreeing, at which point we’ll be “attacking” God or your faith. It’s a little like saying, “I believe kids oughta get a whuppin’ once in a while — hey, it’s just the way I was raised!” So now anyone who still argues otherwise is “attacking” the person’s parents. Drawing a line in the sand to quell future discussion.
Er… perhaps you’ve run into people who’ve done so, but I think you’ll admit that I’ve done nothing of the sort; true? If it helps you relax on that point: no, I’m not setting you up for a red-herring-esque “gotcha” or some other appeal to the gallery, nor did I ever intend to do so. If you try to declare my Faith to be false, I’ll certainly contest your points; but I don’t simply act like (forgive the mixed metaphor) a “dog in the manger”, snarling about you getting too close to my sacred cow bone! Feel free to challenge any statement I make (respectfully, please), and I’ll reply to the content without rancor. Fair enough?
Ha! Paladin, you are saying all the wrong things for someone like me! :) I LOATHE when other women want to come on a trip to the bathroom with me (what??? I get performance anxiety. also: weird) and most of my female friends feel similarly. And a refusal to ask for directions is a horrible flaw of mine.
I do prefer to simply vent about problems sometimes, and it is frustrating to me when the person I’m talking to keeps trying to offer solutions – they feel like accusations, like the fact that I am still upset is my own fault for not DOING SOMETHING. But I don’t really have any desire or tendency to take over someone else’s issues – often to my own detriment in platonic and romantic relationships; I have to be deliberately and directly ASKED to intervene.
I don’t know much about my own multi-tasking skills. Sometimes I suspect I’m above average and sometimes I suspect I’m well below it. That is to say, when I am deliberately focusing on many things at once, I can keep track of them all; but when I am deliberately focusing on one thing, it takes a freaking bomb going off to distract me. (Classic work example: I can be on the phone to one vendor ordering steel, and writing an e-mail to a co-worker at the same time about a hydraulic-leak monitoring system. But if I’m working in AutoCAD, someone usually has to say my name three times before I even hear it and look up.)
All that said, I do not consider myself a “masculine” person. I don’t consider myself a “feminine” person either – I don’t accept that these traits are inherently one or the other. I studied Old English literature (with the intention of becoming a librarian) and love vintage-y looking dresses; I wear cute little hair clips. I have mixed opinions on shoes – I don’t usually like the look of heels, but I don’t like the look of the “sensible shoes” I often end up wearing to work. I just don’t like shoes in general, I suppose, haha. I am almost coldly rational in arguments, but I occasionally cry when I’m angry (though rarely when I’m sad). I just finished hand-making a small army of twee little Scandinavian bird Christmas ornaments, felt and embroidery thread, to give to acquaintances (my coffee guy, who always remembers my order; the guys at each hardware store or lumber company or whatever who do small favors for me and who I return to time and again for business) or as stocking-stuffers to close friends. I am not naturally inclined at math – never got beyond the third semester of college calculus – but I do fine at it. I love pedicures and loathe manicures. I take baths with nice-smelling products. I show up to work ready to be covered in grease or walk into a meeting with my producers, and anything in between, on any given day. I go to the ballet regularly and rarely miss a Sunday football game at the bar. I like my privacy and enjoy solitude, and don’t like talking on the phone or trading small talk over coffee; but love nothing more than a REAL, intense conversation with someone who GETS IT. This is ME.
I don’t know many women who fit most of the “feminine” stereotypes, likewise for men and masculinity, which I suppose is why I see basing my treatment of people on those stereotypes as a fairly inaeffective way to behave. Labeling some qualities “feminine” when I know so many women who don’t possess these qualities feels strange to me – likewise with masculine.
— Paladin: “How is my own human (male) dignity diminished by sacrificing of myself to show reverence toward a woman (e.g. opening doors for her, and other acts of chivalry/gentlemanliness)?”
It becomes misandrist (i.e. anti-male) if you believe that men should do this for women on the basis of their gender. “Ladies first” has as its immediate corollary “men second.”
— And, no, my mother doesn’t understand why other women go to relieve themselves in platoons, while my father and I will, on occasion, ask for directions. I’ll sometimes have the washing machine running while I’m emptying the dishwasher and watching the evening news.
— I’m not attacking anyone’s faith; I just find that some bring God into it early on, after which point the conversation is derailed and supplanted by a debate about religion.
— I do believe that killing a cockroach needlessly is indeed wrong. Our respect for life should branch out a bit further than it currently does.
You know what? As much as I appreciate having my husband open the door for me or offer his seat for me, he appreciates when I ask him to open a jar, hang something, or otherwise exert his masculinity rather than automatically doing it myself.