Pro-life video of the day: Opposing views on abortion after rape
by Hans Johnson
In the wake of Todd Akin’s misstatement, lawyer Gloria Allred and Rebecca Kiessling debated the right to abortion in the case of rape on CNN’s Piers Morgan Tonight.
Allred became pregnant due to rape and consequently aborted her child. Kiessling, also an attorney, was conceived in rape and placed for adoption.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHPo16vNNfE&feature=g-al[/youtube]Email dailyvid@jillstanek.com with your video suggestions.
[HT: Jill]
Aug.31, 2012 12:00 pm |
Video of the day |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Rebecca is very compelling. It’s too bad she wasn’t in the studio with Piers and Gloria. They would have had to look Rebecca in the face and say, “You deserved the death penalty for your father’s crime.”
Gloria Allred is nothing but a bully. She kept interrupting Rebecca, who could not even get to the second of three fallacies on which she said the rape exception argument was built. Rebecca was firm, but also gracious and kind, even to the point of telling Ms. Allred that she was sorry for the loss of her son or daughter.
Rebecca Kiessling won hands down.
Kudos to her for not letting Ms. Allred’s rude interruptions take her off point.
Ms. Allred still got the last word, even though Piers said Rebecca would have the last word (around 8:30 of the video).
Ms. Allred never answered Piers’ question to Allred” “How would’ve you felt if you had been compelled to have that baby by the rapist who raped you?”
Ms. Allred also never answered Rebecca’s question: “What is good is my right to anything as a woman if I don’t have a right to life?”
Ms. Allred mischaracterized the reason that Rebecca brought up the near death experience of a coma victim and she never directly answered Rebecca’s question.
Piers was pulling for the “choose death” side. Piers asked some poignant questions but his lack of objectivity was too apparent - among other moments of unfairness Piers defended Ms. Allred’s interruption – what an and unfair host.
Pro-choice supporters ask the question about abortion after rape in order to paint pro-lifers as extremists. When asked what you think about abortion for rape victims, why not turn the question back and say something like “ok, I’ll give you the 2 or 3% of pregnancies that are from rape or incest or whatever, if you will help me to prevent the other 97% of abortions.” They never will, and the reason they framed the question in the first place will be exposed. They just want to corner pro-lifers and paint them as uncompromising and uncompassionate. And they have completely missed the point. So get them with their own logic.
I wonder if the majority of the supporters of the Dems know that their party no longer wants abortion to be ‘rare’?
The Democratic platform dropped word ‘rare’ from their postion to keep ”abortion safe, legal and rare.”
Jeanne, I agree with you. I wish Rebecca got to the second and third fallacies. This interview was a lesson in handling the media. The prolife needs to tighten up their arguments (even shorter arguments), and learn how to, and when appropriate, speak quickly.
Great job Rebecca.
And, oddly enough, I think Piers deserves thanks for broadcasting this debate and for inviting Rebecca on the show.
It’s pretty much impossible to have a reasonable conversation with Gloria Allred, but Rebecca did a pretty good job.
Looking at her current body of work, the death of her child must consume her. This was a great insight into the woman’s mind. Also greatly saddening. I pity her. Killing always has emotional consequences.
It really is a disadvantage to be out of studio. There’s always a fraction of a second delay, and that’s enough to let Allred step in. Rebecca showed plenty of restraint to not protest until the very end - where she nailed the argument.
Allred is never shy about complaining, despite her constant tv facetime (May I say, “Ugh!” – for her ever-present sourness?)
I think the rape pregnancy terror that women like Allred feel is a fundamental and visceral discomfort with personally experiencing pregnancy. Any pregnancy can be difficult, but the hysteria (sorry, but it is true here) seems overwrought. Having the child and giving him or her for adoption while trying is not as bad as plenty of other things one could experience, like oh, I don’t know, killing another human being!
If ever there was a woman with an obsessive compulsion to be noticed, no, to be the focal point of every cameras attention, that woman is, and forever shall be, while she breathes, Gloria Allred.
and
if ever there was a woman who would lie about being raped [and almost hemoraging to death from the subsequent illegal abortion] she would be a drama queen like Gloria Allred.
Gloria asserts she was raped at gunpoint by a doctor while vacationing in Mexico. Did she report the rape to the cops? Did she talk to family and friends about it when she got back home, before she scheduled the abortion?
I want to see the contemporaneous documentation that corroborates Allred’s convenient claims……..decades after the purported event.
Here is the more plausible explanation: an attention starved young woman hops into bed with the first ten men who pay any attention to her. She conceives, she has not a clue who the unlucky sperm donor is and does not care to find out. She procures an illegal abortion, probably in the U.S.A. When the butcher botches the job she is forced to seek medical attention and to make up a story to avoid the attendant legal problems associated with pre-natal homicide.
Even rapists have standards. What man would risk it all in exchange for engaging in sexual congress with a woman like Gloria Allred? I know, ‘lust is blind’, but it does not destroy the sense of hearing and, most especially, the sense of smell.
Allred is as ob-noxious as Rosie O’donnel and Raisehell Maddcoww combined.
[Another ‘cure’ to the erection that lasts more than three hours.]
The most dangerous place in the world to be: between a video camera with it’s red LED illuminated and Gloria Allred.
“Having the child and giving him or her for adoption… is not as bad as plenty of other things one could experience, like oh, I don’t know, killing another human being!”
a mother, murdering her own baby, would be worse.
@ kenthebirther: Here is the more plausible explanation: an attention starved young woman hops into bed with the first ten men who pay any attention to her. She conceives, she has not a clue who the unlucky sperm donor is and does not care to find out. She procures an illegal abortion, probably in the U.S.A. When the butcher botches the job she is forced to seek medical attention and to make up a story to avoid the attendant legal problems associated with pre-natal homicide.
(Denise) She faced no legal problems as it was illegal for the abortionist to do the abortion but not illegal for the female to get the abortion.
It has usually been true that only the abortionist has been prosecuted, not the woman. Thus, your reason for fabricating the rape story makes no sense.
For Ms. Allred it is all about restoring “control” to the rape victim. The constant sleight of hand by the contstant changing of the vocabulary (“control”, “the right to choose”,”bodily autonomy”), is so annoyng and deceitful. The pro-death side need to own what they are advocating: “abortion – the right to a dead baby.”
Ms. Allred doesn’t think a woman should have less rights than an embryo for two reasons: 1) she doesn’t understand that prolifers are not advocating for embryos to have more rights than adult women – only equal protection under the law; and 2) she seems not to understand that an adult woman was once an embryo as Ms Kiessling concisely pointed out to her.
ken,
It’s one thing for me to call Allred a sourpuss. But calling her promiscuous with no proof is over the line.
Ms. Allred was raped. I believe her. I am certain of it. Sadly, she is still looking for that contol she lost to the rapist. Abortion, obviously, did not restore her sense of control. I am so _______ sad now. All of Ms. Allred’s rage is due to the healing she never got.
Wow. Ken, if (god forbid) anything terrible happened to you, I sincerely hope people didn’t talk about you and make speculative claims like you are doing to Allred.
I agree with Hans. And Tyler, oddly enough, with his post at 8:50.
“Even rapists have standards. What man would risk it all in exchange for engaging in sexual congress with a woman like Gloria Allred? I know, ‘lust is blind’, but it does not destroy the sense of hearing and, most especially, the sense of smell.”
That’s pretty gross and ignorant even for you, Ken. People of all ages, genders, and looks get raped. How unattractive you personally find someone has nothing to do with that. You aren’t remotely funny or witty, in case you were wondering.
JackBorsch says:
September 1, 2012 at 1:58 am
“Even rapists have standards. What man would risk it all in exchange for engaging in sexual congress with a woman like Gloria Allred? I know, ‘lust is blind’, but it does not destroy the sense of hearing and, most especially, the sense of smell.”
That’s pretty gross and ignorant even for you, Ken. People of all ages, genders, and looks get raped. How unattractive you personally find someone has nothing to do with that. You aren’t remotely funny or witty, in case you were wondering.
(Denise) Anyone can be raped from an infant to an elderly person. However, the chances of a woman getting raped dramatically decline when she hits 50. OTOH, her chances of being KILLED if she is raped go up dramatically. Rapists who specifically target elderly women are rare but the most homicidally inclined group of attackers.
Why? Rape occurs when male sexuality is:
1) Severed from empathy or
2) Fused with rage.
Younger women tend to be raped by those in the first group, elderly women by those in the second.
More germane to this discussion is possible pregnancy. The rapist can impregnate the younger woman so he allows her to live. He can’t impregnate the elderly victim so he might as well kill her.
No, I’m not saying he consciously calculates this out or even that having offspring is a conscious motive in rape. But most people want to continue their genetic line. Much of human behavior can be seen in evolutionary terms as formed to ensure the continuation of the genetic line. Rapists are like others people in this respect. The fact that the young victim COULD be the mother of his child stays his hand from killing her.
Blocking rape victims from avoiding having the babies of their attackers ensures that men will be able to continue to use force to have offspring. In that sense, it takes the side of the rapist.
OTOH, a rapist may be more likely to kill a victim is he is CERTAIN that she will NOT have his child. Thus, allowing rape victims to avoid having the babies of their attackers may put their lives in greater jeopardy.
I wouldn’t even get into the issue with Ken about why rape victims don’t automatically run and tell everyone that they were raped. He chooses not to understand. I don’t like Gloria’s view on abortion but I have no reason to believe she wasn’t raped.
A good question Rebecca to ask would have been, “If a woman gets raped by the father of her baby AFTER the baby is born, should we kill the baby?” After all, she shouldn’t have to be reminded of her rapist, right? She shouldn’t have to love, take care of and carry the rapists child in her arms, right?”
Rebecca wouldn’t have been able to ask this anyway. It was so obvious that she was cut off by the interviewer and allowed to be cut off by Gloria over and over. She held her cool and came out looking like the only rational one by the end of the interview.
Praxedes says:
September 1, 2012 at 9:21 am
I wouldn’t even get into the issue with Ken about why rape victims don’t automatically run and tell everyone that they were raped. He chooses not to understand. I don’t like Gloria’s view on abortion but I have no reason to believe she wasn’t raped.
A good question Rebecca to ask would have been, “If a woman gets raped by the father of her baby AFTER the baby is born, should we kill the baby?” After all, she shouldn’t have to be reminded of her rapist, right? She shouldn’t have to love, take care of and carry the rapists child in her arms, right?”
(Denise) A born baby may be handed to someone else.
It is too bad embryos and fetuses can’t be transplanted into willing wombs. Perhaps that will happen someday.
Yeah Prax, or how people are stupid or asking for it if they get raped in situations that he doesn’t personally understand or approve of. I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt for a while but it seems deliberate.
It freaks me out when people start talking about how unattractive someone is and they couldn’t have possibly been raped because of it. I saw some people doing that when Roseanne Barr made some claims about some childhood incest. It’s freaking creepy. And ignorant.
Anyway, I think Rebecca sounded very classy and made her points the best she could with them interrupting her. I hope that she managed to reach someone who was watching.
“ After all, she shouldn’t have to be reminded of her rapist, right? She shouldn’t have to love, take care of and carry the rapists child in her arms, right?” ”
Yeah, I always think that really doesn’t make sense. I understand when they make the point that the pregnancy itself might be intolerable, that’s certainly an issue. But when they talk about how the kid would remind her of the rapist and all that? She can have someone else raise the kid, and I don’t see how her kid’s life should depend on how evil the father was. Plenty of people can’t stand or hate their baby’s fathers, we don’t consider that good reason to kill anyone. :/
JackBorsch: I understand when they make the point that the pregnancy itself might be intolerable, that’s certainly an issue.
(Denise) It’s the crux of the issue. If a female is fertile, the first concern in the immediate aftermath of the attack is likely to be pregnancy. Under any circumstances, pregnancy is an extremely intense experience for the pregnant female. Her belly gets bigger and bigger and bigger, she may suffer a variety of pains and discomforts before finally going through labor and giving birth. For the vast majority of women, the desire to have a baby makes the costs well worth them. The prospect of going through this as the result of a brutal attack can seem horrifying.
if pregnancy as a result of rape is not ‘rare’ then trot out the rape vitims who have conceived.
the documented, reported cases, where the victim conceived and either carried the child to a live birth or chose to hire an assasin to murder her own child en utero.
then we can have a profitable discussion and reach some informed conclusions based on fact.
Gloria Allred is just another one of those ‘unassailable victims’ that the liberals love to trot out to make their case.
in this particular instance, i do not believe she is or was a ‘victim’.
i make a ‘choice’ not to believe her assertions until she provides independent corroboration they are ‘true’.
as an attorney, Allred would do no less if she were representing a client who had been accused by a woman with her documented history.
while i agree that beauty/desirability are ,subjective, and i understand that all the gals get prettier at closing time, especially to drunk rapists, a woman’like Gloria Allred, who is more like Fran Drescher than Fran, would be too ob-noxious.
like danny de vito making the kidnappers pay him to take the ‘victim’, his wife, bette middler, back.
but back to the point: there are women who cry rape, for sundry reasons, when no rape occurred.
Gloria Allred would be the perfect ‘poster child’ for the psychological profile.
Denise,
A pregnant woman’s BABY gets bigger and bigger. The human life inside of her grows and grows just as she should in exactly the place she should. Sometimes women have morning sickness, some don’t have it at all. Some have easier labors and deliveries and some do not. AND A CHILD IS BORN WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE.
There. Fixed that for you.
You have never been pregnant. You have never been raped and conceived and carried that baby to term and delivered that child. I leave those experiences to those that have been there and not PROJECT feelings of HORROR onto it.
Don’t bother addressing me.
What can be done to PREVENT rapes from leading to pregnancies?
“An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.” And no, I didn’t invent that slogan which is not off-the-wall.
i understand ‘some’ of the reasons victims of rape choose not to report the crme.
it would be ‘arrogant’ to even suggest i understand ‘all’ the reasons.
i also understand ’some’ of the reasons women falsely claim they have been raped.
it would be equally arrogant of to assert that i understand ‘all’, perhaps ‘any’ of them.
denise,
your premises suggest that the ‘rapist’ has more concern for the survival of his biological child, albeit convoluted/evoluted, than the child’s biological mother.
evolution has a sense of irony.
how ironic.
“while i agree that beauty/desirability are ,subjective, and i understand that all the gals get prettier at closing time, especially to drunk rapists, a woman’like Gloria Allred, who is more like Fran Drescher than Fran, would be too ob-noxious.”
Ken, you are really making my skin crawl. Just… stop. Rape doesn’t exist because some dude sees a hot or pleasant woman that he likes and just has to have. You seriously sound creepy here, do you get that? You realize you are basically saying “She is definitely not hot enough to rape”?
I realize you are trying to say you think Allred is vile, but man find a different way to express yourself. Please.
Look, Ken, I know you think you’re really funny or whatever but your statements have the potential to seriously offend any rape victims that may read them. That alone should give you some serious pause before hitting the add comment button.
Denise said: The prospect of going through this [pregnancy] as the result of a brutal attack can seem [italics are my own] horrifying.
—
Denise, appearances can be deceiving. I have heard of pregnancy being uncomfortable, but I have not heard that it is painful, except in a few instances and typically only at the later stages of the pregnancy. Labor is not even experienced by women in the same way; in addition, for most women the arrival of the baby terminates any pain that was felt during labor.
If we are to weigh the rights of the preborn child with the rights of the mother not to feel pain, we should also include the pain many women feel after an abortion – not the only physical pain, but the psychological pain that lasts a lot longer. Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on your attitude towards new life) the pregnant woman is going to experience some physical pain whether she carry the baby to term or has an abortion. However, only carrying a baby to term allows a woman to avoid the psychological pain of knowing that she killed her own child.
In the future Denise I suggest you be more considerate of the post abortive pain women have experienced. You seem to be sensitive to every type of a woman except the post-abortive woman.
jdc,
and there is the crux of the problem.
you are demanding that ‘truth’ be sacrificed or compromised in deference to something as ambiguous as individual sensibilities.
What about the rape victims who are not taken seriously because self serving glory hounds like Gloria Allred are given center stage and are then later demonstrated to be frauds and charlotans?
you may choose to believe her claims.
my ‘discerner’ informs me otherwise.
my understanding is that a victim remains a victim only as long as they allow another to control them.
i have no control over anyones feelings, but my own.
JB is the only rape victim of whom i am aware that has complained.
the solution for him is simple: take control over that which he has control: don’t read my commentary or get a handle on his ‘feelings’.
if someone ‘chooses’ to affeeliate themselves with likes of ms Allred then they have chosen their own bed and they should not complain about the bedwetting, snoring and sleepnumber of their partner[s].
Jack, no worries, as a Catholic I know I am in for a tough ride - the teachings of the Church/Jesus are not easy for the world to accept, but for those that have the purifying fire of faith they are easy to bear.
How come: it’s a ‘fetus’ /non-human/ non-live/ a-thing then suddenly, it’s a ‘rapists child’? Did a rapist magically make it = human?
“you are demanding that ‘truth’ be sacrificed or compromised in deference to something as ambiguous as individual sensibilities.”
BS, Ken, you have said very little that is “truth”. You have made a bunch of assumptions, and made very inaccurate statements about rape. There is nothing I can do about your assumptions. However, I can correct your inaccurate statements, though I don’t have the energy anymore to do it in depth.
I think it’s hilarious that you claim to care about “real” rape victims who are negatively affected by false rape claims (which you have no proof that Allred’s is). I have never seen you speak of rape unless it is in terms of someone you decided is lying or someone you decided is at fault in their own attacks. Who, pray tell, are these legitimate victims that you are so concerned about?
And I know you would love to, but you can’t just disregard me because you think I have some personal emotional stake in this or something. I am not the only one who has complained about your crap, you just have a really selective memory.
“the solution for him is simple: take control over that which he has control: don’t read my commentary or get a handle on his ‘feelings’.”
I just have to say… huge cop out, dude. There is this thing we call “civilized human conduct”, and what it generally entails is that you try to at least frame your arguments/opinions in a respectful, effective way. I am certainly no saint and I constantly offend people on accident and sometimes on purpose, but I don’t generally proudly crow about how they can just stop reading or shut up about it. Like, I know my religious viewpoints make people mad a lot on this website. I don’t say everything I think about religion, when I know it’s simply my opinion and it’s probably heavily biased and unfair to the religious people I respect (I do sometimes fail at keeping my religious opinions to myself when they are unnecesary, I do admit that). The whole “I can say what I want and people can take it or leave it!!!!” thing is a cop out for people who are not creative or kind enough to find ways to get their points across without hurting people. Or simply making crap up, which you tend to do on the subject of rape.
jb,
“JB is the only rape victim of whom i am aware that has complained.”
there are several qualifiers in that sentence that you seem to have missed or do not understand.
tho i have speculated about glorious allred, her public career is ample evidence and her choce of high profile clients, none of whom that i know of who claim to be rape vitims, is ample evidence of her ‘need’ to be noticed.
gloria allred is the stereotypical ‘ambulance chaser’. she is a legend only in her own mind.
please explain to us why one of tiger woods porn star sex partners or one of anyhony wieners porn star ‘sexting’ pen pals would require ms allred’s sevices other than ensure that sane people maintain a safe distance.
being a rape victim, does not make one an expert on rape or rape victims.
how do you know i am not a rape victim?
but please be specific and point out what i have ‘made up’ about rape.
if you are going to lay the charge, then make your case.
“there are several qualifiers in that sentence that you seem to have missed or do not understand.”
No, I didn’t miss or misunderstand them. I am not the only “rape victim” that has complained about your statements, both on this thread and past threads. And stop calling me that please, I don’t think I’m supposed to use those terms to describe the things that happened to me, I have been told it upsets people and I don’t really want to upset rape survivors.
I already said I can do nothing about your speculations, whether or not I agree with them. You will speculate as you will. I am not generally in the business of trying to pick apart people’s claims about rape, it’s just not something I do unless I were on a jury or something. I will not join you in that, so I am going to disregard that part of your comment.
“being a rape victim, does not make one an expert on rape or rape victims.”
Never said that it did. I don’t know where you came up with that.
”how do you know i am not a rape victim?”
Well, you once told me you weren’t. I can only go off of what you say. If you just didn’t feel up to sharing, then I am sorry.
“but please be specific and point out what i have ‘made up’ about rape.
if you are going to lay the charge, then make your case.”
Well, you try to make a funny about how you find Allred so hideous that you can’t imagine why anyone would rape her, because “rapists have standards”. Which is seriously nasty, and ignorant. Rape rarely has anything to do with what the victim looks like, or smells like as you implied with so much class. So you either have a gross misunderstanding of rape, which is something I have actually studied a lot and will correct harmful misinformation like that when I see it, or you think that you are being amusing. If there is a third option please let me know.
http://www.gloriaallred.com/
A Fearless Advocate for Justice and Equality
Gloria Allred is the most famous woman attorney practicing law in the nation today
When a high-profile legal case hits the airwaves, we have become accustomed to seeing Gloria Allred in some key role as attorney or commentator.
Fearless lawyer, feminist, activist, television and radio commentator, warrior, advocate, and winner – Gloria Allred is all of these things and more.
Gloria Allred is a founding partner of Allred, Maroko & Goldberg, one of the pre-eminent employment law firms in the country…
Welcome to Gloria’s web page. We invite you to find out more about this remarkable woman.
one thing is for sure ‘glorious’, Allred will never be accued of ‘false humility’.
When I grew up back in the 1960s and 1970s, the most famous woman lawyer was Gladys Towles Root. As you can see at http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/classics/root/1.html
she was QUITE a contrast to Gloria Allred!
In fact, Root became famous defending men accused of rape and child molesting.
“rapists have standards”
mea culpa
I erred in making such a broad generalization.
I stand corrected.
You are right.
Clearly, some rapists do NOT have ‘standards’.
however, I do recall a rape survivor suggesting that women, who are confronted with the probability of being raped, should soil themselves as a possible deterrent.
Evidently, this survivor believes some rapists may have standards.
“As of the first week of June 2012 [Gloriously] Allred has confirmed via an email that she is representing a former girlfriend of Rudy Eugene, Eugene being the now deceased cannibal of the 2012 Miami cannibalism incident.”
[Never fear, the ‘Wonder Woman’ of modern feminism is on the job!]
Hi Jack,
Could you explain your following paragraph to me. I am not sure that I understood your point:
No, I didn’t miss or misunderstand them. I am not the only “rape victim” that has complained about your statements, both on this thread and past threads. And stop calling me that please, I don’t think I’m supposed to use those terms to describe the things that happened to me, I have been told it upsets people and I don’t really want to upset rape survivors.
I was also wondering if it you think it is appropriate that Ms. Allred goes around identifying herself as a rape victim for public debates, and as a rape victim that speaks for all rape victims.
All righty Ken, glad that we had this discussion. Very productive.
Tyler… I don’t really want to get into that. Long story short, I have been told by a couple people in the victim’s groups that I was talking to, rape advocacy needs to focus on female victims and male perps, and that rape is mostly a gendered crime (men perpetrate it against women). I guess that it’s hard to focus on important issues like that when men claim to be rape victims, it’s not even legally “rape” to sexually assault a guy in a lot of states, I suppose. So I just refer to myself as a sexual abuse victim or survivor or something, I don’t think that can upset anyone. And I used to correct pronouns because the automatic assumption of female victim used to upset me, I don’t do that anymore if I can help it, female victims are who need to be focused on primarily. I do forget sometimes though.
Miss Allred can identify herself as a rape victim as she pleases, that’s her business. I doubt I would do that if I didn’t have anonymity, but more power to her. I do think that it’s inappropriate that she seems to think she speaks for all women who have been impregnated through rape. I don’t see a problem with her using her experience to talk about her views, much as I might disagree with her conclusions, I do see a problem with her assuming other women will feel the same way.
In 1966 she [Gloriously Allred] was raped at gunpoint by a doctor in Mexico. “I didn’t tell the authorities at the time,” she writes in her book [Fight Back and Win], “because I didn’t think they’d believe an American girl [25 year old college graduate, working on her masters, mother of one, married and divorced] against a well-known and respected doctor.'”
The first time she spoke publicly about her ordeal was in the summer of 1984 [18 years later]. She told a reporter that it was among the factors that motivated her to advocate for other women who’d been raped.
“This is what I am meant to do [for a nominal fee and ’SELF’ prompting notoraiety . This is what there is a need for me to do. I have a duty to do it. I love to do it. I have a passion for justice. And this is what I hope to do for the rest of my life.”
‘gloriously’ Allred
[Never fear, the ‘Wonder Woman’ of modern feminism is still on the job!]
Jack,
You exemplify how the word “survivor” can greatly overshadow the word “victim”.
Thanks Hans.
@Tyler: I am VERY sensitive to the problems of post-abortive women. The mother of Tim, the “Oldenburg Baby” who survived a saline abortion, committed suicide 6 years after the baby miraculously survived — but was damaged by — that abortion. She needed psychiatric treatment in the immediate aftermath.
I’m aware abortion is connected to suicide.
This is part of why it seems so important to decrease unwanted pregnancies. It is only one reason of course. Pregnancy should be greeted with joy.
Despite Carla’s remonstrance, the female belly gets very big with advanced pregnancy. This signals to all around her that she is pregnant. Could avoiding the big belly be one reason women abort?
Denise Noe,
What conclusions did you draw from the Oldenburg’s attempt to kill their child? It sounds like you support them in their attempt at killing.
I have not heard that the mother committed suicide. If she did, it would be interesting to find out why. For clarity’s sake are you saying she committed suicide because she was upset she didn’t have a “successful” abortion or that she committed suicide because she attempted to have an abortion in the first place and now regrets it?
@Tyler: I tried to find this essay but wasn’t able to so I’m putting it here. The link no longer leads to a picture of Tim. You can google up a picture of him. This essay mentions her death but not the manner of death. After I wrote it, I learned that she had committed suicide. She didn’t leave a note so we can’t know why she committed suicide. My GUESS is that her suicide was motivated, at least in part, by guilt over what she had done to Tim. She deeply regretted the abortion.
Tim: The Boy Who Wasn’t Meant To Be
By Denise Noe
In July 1997, a couple in Oldenburg, Germany discovered that the “fetus,” or “unborn child,” the woman was carrying had Down Syndrome. According to the Wikipedia, the woman was in her twenty-fifth week of pregnancy.
In order to understand what happened next, it is necessary to belabor (no pun intended) the obvious. There are about four weeks in a month. The first month of a pregnancy ends at the fourth week. The first trimester ends at the twelfth week. The second trimester, or sixth month, of pregnancy ends at the twenty-fourth week. This mother had entered her seventh month of pregnancy – a time period in which premature babies are born and often survive.
After learning of the Down Syndrome, the couple decided to abort the pregnancy. The pregnant woman underwent the abortion. The baby expelled from her vaginal canal breathed, moved, and had a beating heart. Medical personnel expected him to die soon so did nothing to treat him.
Ten hours later the baby’s heart was still beating and he was still breathing although his body temperature had dropped a great deal. Physicians decided to treat him.
As a result both of the abortion and the lack of immediate medical treatment, the boy who would be named Tim but called the “Oldenburg Baby” by the German media had more severe disabilities than most other Down Syndrome babies. Extensive damage had been done to his brain, eyes, and lungs. In the first years of his life, he required several operations.
Tim’s parents had the legal right to raise him but did not wish to. Quoting directly from the Wikipedia, “Tim’s biological mother needed psychotherapeutic care after the failed abortion, and died a few years later.”
The physician who aborted Tim and failed to treat him for ten hours after his having unexpectedly lived through the procedure was fined 90 days’ pay in 2004 for failing to give care to a newborn.
Tim spent much of the first year of his life in a children’s clinic. In 1998, a foster family took him in. The badly damaged little boy showed signs of autism. In 2003, he was given what is referred to as “dolphin therapy.” The practice is controversial because some observers believe it is not a “therapy” but only a recreational activity. However, for whatever reasons, the boy seemed to make improvements in digestion, motor skills, and even speech after contact with these marine mammals. Since 2004, he has attended a school for children with disabilities.
What is to be made of this tragedy? The first lesson to be drawn is that “abortions” make little sense performed at a time period when it is possible for the aborted to live outside the womb. It is sheer moral insanity to be desperately rushing to save a baby in one area of the hospital that was born prematurely while ignoring one that was forced out of the uterus at exactly the same time period.
Moreover, we need to clarify that the entire issue of the woman’s body and choice ends once her body and that of the baby part ways for any reason at all.
It also points out the need to take on the issue of the custody of abortion survivors. No woman should be able to abort – with the expectation of the fetal death – and then legally have custody of a baby that happened to survive the procedure. Since abortions will be practiced regardless of whether or not they are legal, all countries need to deal with the custody issue.
Tim has extraordinary disabilities. His life has been full of pain. Inevitably, if with great discomfort, some must wonder: Was his life worth saving? Is his life worth living? The answer to these questions may be found at http://tims-delfintherapie.de. The text is in German and I can’t read it. Those of my readers who are blind will not be able to see the accompanying photograph but those who possess vision will recognize the worth of that picture. One thing that needs no translation is the meaning of a smile.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Oldenburg+Baby&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=TOZEUIWUDZCI9gSql4GQAw&ved=0CH8QsAQ&biw=1087&bih=636
The baby with the parents in the middle isn’t Tim. The two pics on either side are of Tim and include one of him with a dolphin.
Interesting how Allred jumps back and forth to embryo, then fertilized egg, then embryo, then fetus.
Would killing the rapist and saving the child help the situation? Probably not. However identifying the father and holding him responsible would be the right thing to do. In the case of this father, he likely would not have raped if he knew he would lose his license to practice medicine and have child support taken out of his paycheck for the next 21 years even if the child was given up for adoption. We have the power to identify all fathers and hold them accountable but lack the will to do it. As one who has assisted many in childbirth, I can tell you abortion is far more horrific than giving birth. Part of the rage that men feel toward women is the reality that women have the power to have their children killed in the womb. I believe it has contributed the increase in violence against women in the last 4 decades.
Janet says:
September 4, 2012 at 12:53 pm
Would killing the rapist and saving the child help the situation? Probably not. However identifying the father and holding him responsible would be the right thing to do. In the case of this father, he likely would not have raped if he knew he would lose his license to practice medicine and have child support taken out of his paycheck for the next 21 years even if the child was given up for adoption.
(Denise) He likely WOULD have raped. People who commit serious crimes aren’t risk-aversive. In fact, many of them find risks thrilling. This is why the strong penalties already in place for rape (and many other crimes) have limited deterrent value. However, they are valuable in that they can remove dangerous people from society.