Stanek weekend question: What do you say to someone who wishes she had been aborted?
From rolereboot.com comes a piece written by a clearly depressed woman also suffering from feelings of low self-worth.
Here’s an excerpt from the sad article entitled, “I Wish My Mother Had Aborted Me”:
An abortion would have been best for me because there is no way that my love-starved trauma-addled mother could have ever put me up for adoption. It was either abortion or raising me herself, and she was in no position to raise a child. She had suffered a traumatic brain injury, witnessed and experienced severe domestic violence, and while she was in grade school she was raped by a stranger and her mother committed suicide. She was severely depressed and suicidal, had an extremely poor support system, was experiencing an unplanned pregnancy that resulted from coercive sex, and she was so young that her brain was still undeveloped.
With that constellation of factors, there was a very high statistical probability that my mother would be an abusive parent, that we would spend the rest of our lives in crushing poverty, and that we would both be highly vulnerable to predatory organizations and men. And that is exactly what happened. She abused me, beating me viciously and often. We lived in bone-crushing poverty, and our little family became a magnet for predatory men and organizations. My mother found minimal support in a small church, and became involved with the pastor who was undeniably schizophrenic, narcissistic, and sadistic. The abuse I endured was compounded by deprivation. Before the age of 14, I had never been to a sleep-over, been allowed to talk to a friend on the phone, eaten in a restaurant, watched a television show, listened to the radio, read a non-Christian book, or even worn a pair of jeans.
If this were an anti-choice story, this is the part where I would tell you how I overcame great odds and my life now has special meaning. I would ask you to affirm that, of course, you are happy I was born, and that the world would be a darker, poorer place without me.
It is true that in the past 12 years, I have been able to rise above the circumstances of my birth and build a life that I truly love. But no one should have to make such a Herculean struggle for simple normalcy. Even given the happiness and success I now enjoy, if I could go back in time and make the choice for my mother, it would be abortion.
The world would not be a darker or poorer place without me. Actually, in terms of contributions to the world, I am a net loss. Everything that I have done – including parenting, teaching, researching, and being a loving partner – could have been done as well if not better by other people. Any positive contributions that I have made are completely offset by what it has cost society to help me overcome the disadvantages and injuries of my childhood to become a functional and contributing member of society.
It is not easy to say, “I wish my mother had aborted me.” The Right would have us see abortion as women acting out of cowardice, selfishness, or convenience. But for many women, like my mother, abortion would be an inconvenient act of courage and selflessness. I am sad for both of us that she could not find the courage and selflessness. But my attitude is that as long as I am already here, I might as well do all I can to make the world a better place, to ease the suffering of others, and to experience love and life to its fullest.
Thoughts? How do you respond?
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
There are many people who are not here today because a girl or woman Just Said No. When I was 15, I was targeted for seduction by an adult sexual predator. This man had a special advantage because I found him extremely attractive. I had a powerful crush! He first spoke to me over the brick “fence” separating our homes. I was looking after my little brother and I kept my eye especially glued to my brother to remind myself: This is what I could get if this man has his way! The predator noticed me following my brother around and asked, “Do you have to follow him so close?” But the asker was the reason.
He also asked, “Would you like me to come over and visit you sometime?”
I smiled broadly and very firmly answered, “No.”
“See you around,” he said.
Another time he offered me a “ride home.”
“I don’t need one,” I answered.
“But I live right next door to you,” he said.
I kept walking.
I have OFTEN thought about the pregnancy that could have resulted had I been less resistant. I’ve had nightmares about the abortion. I’ve also had horrible thoughts about the baby that might have been born and what a horror he would have grown into: the child of a disturbed, impoverished 15-year-old and an adult sexual predator who would undoubtedly have deserted.
If a boy, would our son be in prison? Would he have been executed?
Would our daughter be one of the homeless mentally ill?
I’ve never been pregnant. But I’ve often thought about what might have been: the brutal saline abortion or the deprived and disturbed child who never got beyond being a gleam in his would-be daddy’s eye.
Interesting and I wrote about this too. But if someone came in and attacked this person he/she would fight tooth and nail to survive. First I noted the author used a pseudonym and that makes me wonder about the credibility. I would hate for anyone to have a bad childhood but when her/his summary is… Before the age of 14, I had never been to a sleep-over, been allowed to talk to a friend on the phone, eaten in a restaurant, watched a television show, listened to the radio, read a non-Christian book, or even worn a pair of jeans……having traveled in developing countries….wonder about the extent of the abuse.
I would point out that by your own admission the last 12 years you call yourself happy and successful. As an adult you can overcome the bad past and be a survivor and not a victim. You can point out that the God of the universe knows your pain and cares for you in an intimate way. He will be the father you did not have. etc.
As a pro-lifer, this is one of the hardest comments I come across. Interested in an answer.
It would’ve been better had she wished her mother had gotten the support she needed during and after her pregnancy
I would ask why, as long as she is wishing that things had been different, she doesn’t instead wish that they had been different in ways that would have helped her mother be a good mother. “Because the world is not ever going to care about poor young pregnant girls”? “Because that’s unrealistic”? The world will do whatever we demand that it does. Why do we not demand that it care about and support women like her mother and herself? Why does she, in turn, wish only that she had been killed, and not have the audacity to wish that someone had? Abortion is the laziest solution to some of the world’s most complex problems and she has merely internalized that to the extent of self-blame.
And I would note that, as pro-choicers often remind women who regret their abortions, her feelings are not universal and do not negate all the people, children of rape victims, etc, who DO NOT wish they had been aborted.
I used to wish that my mom had gone through with the abortion when I was suicidal. I really just needed help. I would try to help someone who felt like that. Stuff like this, though, enrages me:
” t is true that in the past 12 years, I have been able to rise above the circumstances of my birth and build a life that I truly love. But no one should have to make such a Herculean struggle for simple normalcy. Even given the happiness and success I now enjoy, if I could go back in time and make the choice for my mother, it would be abortion.”
I mean wtf? Those of us who were dealt a crappy hand at the parental poker table are better off dead because of we had to struggle more? BS, absolute BS. My childhood was a horror show. And yeah, I have been severely damaged and still struggle with the aftermath of it. I still fail to see how killing me improves that though.
I think she’s depressed and doesn’t really mean what she says, anyway. All the “the world would not be darker with me not in it” isn’t coming from a healthy person. I am sure her kids don’t agree with her, at least I hope they don’t.
” Any positive contributions that I have made are completely offset by what it has cost society to help me overcome the disadvantages and injuries of my childhood to become a functional and contributing member of society.”
You know what? Screw this lady. We don’t freaking kill people because the damage other people inflicted on them is hard to deal with. We don’t kill those of us who have crap to overcome. Isn’t that blaming the victim? And honestly, I don’t care that it might have “cost” society something to deal with the damage my parents did to me. Its not something I or any other person should have to pay for with their life. And even if I am not that great, my kids are. If I were killed because it is sooooooo much better for abused kids to be dead than grow up and have the audacity to have some issues from abuse and neglect, then my kids wouldn’t exist. And the world would totally suck without my kids in it. So yeah this lady can go shut up and get some counseling. I can’t stand these “better aborted than abused” fools.
Oh spare me this diatribe of self pity. No one should have to struggle to live normally? Please, people do it all the time. People have survived crushing poverty, physical and mental challenges, rejection, war, famine, concentration camps. asylums (once a dumping ground for orphaned children including Annie Sullivan, the teacher of Helen Keller), abuse, slavery, captivity, etc.
If your life is such a horror lady, whatever stopped you from jumping off a cliff? Oh, you like being alive, right?
The best way to deal with this revolting self pity is to not respond to it in any way.
” Interesting and I wrote about this too. But if someone came in and attacked this person he/she would fight tooth and nail to survive. First I noted the author used a pseudonym and that makes me wonder about the credibility. I would hate for anyone to have a bad childhood but when her/his summary is… Before the age of 14, I had never been to a sleep-over, been allowed to talk to a friend on the phone, eaten in a restaurant, watched a television show, listened to the radio, read a non-Christian book, or even worn a pair of jeans……having traveled in developing countries….wonder about the extent of the abuse.”
No. There are kids here in the US who were raised like that. I was raised in a cult, I didn’t go to public school, didn’t even meet anyone my age except for people in the cult until I started sneaking out when I was like twelve. Isolation can certainly be damaging, whether people acknowledge it or not. And isolation like that makes sexual and physical abuse very easy to cover up, it goes on for years and no one notices.
Whether she is being truthful or not she infuriates me. I’m sincerely sick of people acting like having an abusive childhood is done kind of death penalty crime. Why punish the kid for it? Why does no one ever call for my parents death but they seem to think I should have been killed for their crimes. It’s ridiculous.
Hi JackBorsch,
Amen!!
Folks, this gal is a histrionic PD. These people perpetually wallow in self pity and victimhood and nothing you say or do changes it. They crave being the center of attention and you acknowledging them only feeds into it. It only gives them the attention and pity they crave, and reinforces their “victimhood”.
Save your energy and your time and move on to another thread.
Please excuse my typos and missing punctuation. Anger + touch screen = terrible grammar and spelling.
This is the kind of logic that people use to justify aborting a baby with deformities or chromosomal defects–what kind of life are they gonna have anyway? Which really means “what kind of life am I gonna have raising this less-than-perfect child?” I wonder what people want from life? Is an idyllic life the only one worth living? What does this woman mean by “normalcy”? Kinda presumptuous. I found out when my tiny Trisomy 18 baby died that when you enter into co-creation with God, you don’t make demands, you don’t ask questions, or wheel and deal, YOU OBEY. People have good lives, hard lives, hard lives that turn into good lives and vice versa, short lives or long lives, fat lives and skinny lives. Life is worth living. Even if your life is horrible and difficult and sickly, and all you do is give birth to a son or daughter who brings more sons and daughters into the world, some of whom go on to do great things–your life has been worth living. It would not surprise me to learn that this gal is a non-believer. Without the context of eternity, the value of a hard life is impossible to see.
“There are many people who are not here today because a girl or woman Just Said No.”
It’s funny how people who claim they wish they weren’t here always say they wish they had been aborted as opposed to never conceived. I mean, at the very least having never been conceived would have been safer and more convenient for their mothers. To me it further emphasizes that people who say things like this are just trying to score points in the abortion debate as opposed to expressing their actual feelings on their lives.
“If this were an anti-choice story”
The proper term is pro-life story. If you’re going to talk about this, at least get the terminology right.
It’s funny how people who claim they wish they weren’t here always say they wish they had been aborted as opposed to never conceived. I mean, at the very least having never been conceived would have been safer and more convenient for their mothers. To me it further emphasizes that people who say things like this are just trying to score points in the abortion debate as opposed to expressing their actual feelings on their lives.
I have also noticed that, JDC. I think that it also stems from “I wish I hadn’t been conceived/I shouldn’t have been conceived” skirting too close to judging/”slut-shaming.” Because there can never be any criticism of or regrets about any sexual activity, ever. The only choice in the equation that is up for judgment is child-bearing.
Regardless, in this situation – where this person was conceived via coercive sex after years of abuse, rape, and the suicide of a parent – it seems pretty weird to start the wishing just after the moment of your own conception. It’s the exact opposite of the route that regrets should take – wherein bad things are regretted even while the good that resulted from them is appreciated, however irrationally. Most people would wish that their mother had never been raped, never been abused, never lost her own parents; but also somewhat paradoxically not wish that they had never been conceived, even if their conception was a direct result of all of this abuse. But this person – she wishes away none of the bad parts and only the good that resulted from them. She wishes not that her mother hadn’t been abused, not that she hadn’t been coerced into sex, not even that she hadn’t conceived – but just that she had had an abortion. It is really kind of a literal application of “abortion as solution” in the life of one woman – no solution at all for any of the problems, and a proposed solution only to a “problem” that is not a problem in itself but is rather caused by other problems (ie, a crisis pregnancy is caused by crisis, not by pregnancy).
This IS a ‘toughie’ Jill, and I tend not to get my mind twisted into a pretzel so I tend to follow Mary’s counsel re. self-pity. The ‘what-ifs’ could easily fill-a-book…. most likely this book could fill a stadium! [A wee bit of humour also helps bigtime.] I am one of those misfits. Even in my world, I am so disabled that any kind of self-acceptance seems delusional. I used to tell folks that my disability tended to limit-job-prospects. For instance I couldn’t be a bank robber because the job-description meant ‘running-from a job’.
Over the decades though, I have come across 2 items that may assist with the abortion-depression link: 1) zinc deficit. [This ‘link’ is not widely accepted even though it might help immensely to increase zinc-taurine status.] 2) depression tends to isolate/remove-influence etc. Starting to perceive the world much-differently just MAY help. Give the work of Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor a shot. [You won’t be disappointed.]
JDC says:
August 18, 2012 at 1:17 pm
“There are many people who are not here today because a girl or woman Just Said No.”
It’s funny how people who claim they wish they weren’t here always say they wish they had been aborted as opposed to never conceived. I mean, at the very least having never been conceived would have been safer and more convenient for their mothers. To me it further emphasizes that people who say things like this are just trying to score points in the abortion debate as opposed to expressing their actual feelings on their lives.
(Denise) Actually, the wish to have never been conceived led to the “Summer of Sam.” David Berkowitz was adopted. He never said he wished he had been aborted but that he wished he had not been conceived. He shot women in lover’s lanes because if they conceived and carried to term, they might place babies for adoption.
His fellow adoptee and serial murderer Joel Rifkin strangled prostitutes because he believed that if they gave birth they were unlikely to raise the “trick babies” but place them for adoption as he had been placed for adoption.
At any rate, I have frequently thought about my child — who was never conceived because as a 15-year-old girl I refused both “visit” and “ride.”
“The world would not be a darker or poorer place without me. Actually, in terms of contributions to the world, I am a net loss. Everything that I have done – including parenting, teaching, researching, and being a loving partner – could have been done as well if not better by other people. Any positive contributions that I have made are completely offset by what it has cost society to help me overcome the disadvantages and injuries of my childhood to become a functional and contributing member of society.”
None of us does it on our own, and all of us require enormous expenditure of time, energy and resources by many in society as we are formed into functional adults. Everything that I have done could likewise have been done better by others in exactly the same categories she mentions, but whoever said that perfection was the goal? If we were all perfect, there would be no need for patience, or hope, or faith, or love.
We don’t love people for what they can do in some utilitarian capacity, but for who they are in all of their glorious imperfection; and that is where the crux of the issue is here.
Love is the decision to honor another with our selflessness. That’s what was missing (or perceived by her to be missing) in this person’s life. She doesn’t perceive herself as having been loveable or loved. Perhaps some sexual abuse occurred with those “predatory men” her mother brought home.
My advice would be to seek some very wise and loving counseling.
“Whether she is being truthful or not she infuriates me. I’m sincerely sick of people acting like having an abusive childhood is done kind of death penalty crime. Why punish the kid for it? Why does no one ever call for my parents death but they seem to think I should have been killed for their crimes. It’s ridiculous.”
Jack, I know what you’re saying, but the difficulty here is that trauma distorts the lens of perspective, and not all distortions are the same. The glass is actually half full here. The author is really equating the wish for nonexistence with wishing that her trauma had not befallen her. That she embraces life is the key to understanding what’s really being said.
It’s the magical thinking of a little girl or boy, that were the circumstances different there never would have been the suffering. It’s like Martha and Mary saying to Jesus at the death of their brother Lazarus, “Lord if you had been here our brother would not have died.”
Change the circumstance, change the reality.
Yes it’s easy to get angry at self-pity, especially when we have suffered greatly in our own lives. But then, maybe we’ve enjoyed more grace than others, and…
Maybe we have an obligation to be the occasion of grace for those who are trapped in their own misery and suffering. Not everyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps. For others they need steady and loving guidance.
God Bless.
I think this story is BS and totally fabricated, right down to the evil clergy and having only ‘Christian’ books to read. To make the fabrication not so obvious, she should have left these details out.
I say this is just more pro-aborsh propaganda to push their heinous agenda. I may even say that Cc or Joan wrote this piece, but they are not that talented or creative.
As someone said in a recent post:
Abortion proponents are growing ever more uncivil as they sense the downfall of their deadly cause and beloved storefront, Planned Parenthood.
Gerard Nadal says:
August 18, 2012 at 5:31 pm
“The world would not be a darker or poorer place without me. Actually, in terms of contributions to the world, I am a net loss. Everything that I have done – including parenting, teaching, researching, and being a loving partner – could have been done as well if not better by other people. Any positive contributions that I have made are completely offset by what it has cost society to help me overcome the disadvantages and injuries of my childhood to become a functional and contributing member of society.”
(Denise) As most of you already know, I am permanently handicapped due to abuses in childhood and adolescence. However, I’m not certain everything I’ve ever done could be done by someone else. I mentioned to a friend, “I’m writing an article called ‘Atlanta’s Tale of Two Willie Bs.’ in which I compare the lives of Atlanta’s famous Mayor Willie B. Hartsfield with that of his namesake, the gorilla Willie B. at Zoo Atlanta.”
The friend replied, “Only YOU could have thought up something like that.”
Shouldn’t we as a society be concerned with the circumstances under which CONCEPTION takes place? It seems to me that relatively few abortions occur because the girl or woman simply wants the abortion experience or thinks it might be a good way to meet people at the clinic. It is rather expensive and painful.
Adoption we have always with us. Women will always die in childbirth. Parents will die and children raised by someone else. A woman who plans a pregnancy and looks forward to raising her baby will discover after the baby is born that she really has no interest in or knack for motherhood.
However, both Joel Rifkin and David Berkowitz were correct in believing that their conceptions were NOT planned.
It seems that much, much more can and should be done to ensure conceptions under circumstances that will lead to a woman carrying to term, giving birth to healthy offspring, and — with the help of MANY others around her! — providing the child with a good upbringing.
Unfortunately, Amy, I think this is quite authentic. This is the product of a child raised by a sick mind, who blames that child for all the problems in her life, even though “the problem” was her emotional problems and crappy decisions in the first place. This is the same kind of thinking that I hear from a lot of siblings of aborted children. “Well, if my mom hadn’t gotten an abortion when she was 17, she never would’ve been able to meet my dad and have The Perfect Life and have me and my siblings!!! YOU MUST HATE US!!!”-No. I just think your OLDEST sibling deserved the life you’re enjoying right now, too, and the fact they were killed doesn’t mean you couldn’t have been born and be sharing The Perfect Life with him or her right now. I had my daughter very young, with a man I’m no longer married to, who abused me. It took me having another child and turning 29 to get away from the guy, meeting the man of my dreams who treats me AND MY CHILDREN like royalty, who wants nothing more in this world than to have at least two more children with me. Murder within a family is a dark thing, and it touches every member thereof, and warps and twists the mind, and strangles love between family members to death. The only thing that can come from that is loathing and resentment, either of the self, or of the other family members. Abortion is evil and sick, and only breeds more sickness.
” Yes it’s easy to get angry at self-pity, especially when we have suffered greatly in our own lives. But then, maybe we’ve enjoyed more grace than others, and…
Maybe we have an obligation to be the occasion of grace for those who are trapped in their own misery and suffering. Not everyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps. For others they need steady and loving guidance.”
See, I don’t have a problem with people having issues with self pity, or having trouble dealing with trauma, or anything like that. If this were simply an essay about her wishing she never was born or had been aborted, I would feel terrible for her. It really does suck to feel like that, I feel like that a lot and I would hope that she would have someone to help her.
It’s the using her depression and pain to advocate for the deaths of other kids in her position, that’s what I can’t stand, what makes me angry. It’s the bullied and abused becoming the bully and abuser. It’s like my dad claiming he was warped by his abuse as a kid and that’s why he couldn’t leave me alone. It’s BS, I am sick of people thinking their pain means that other people shouldn’t ever get the chance to live. So, yeah, I am not being particularly compassionate toward her but I am so, so tired of hearing how people who had an abusive childhood are worthless, damaged, useless things and shouldn’t even exist. I mean, I am not great but seriously, never done anything to earn the death penalty.
“But no one should have to make such a Herculean struggle for simple normalcy.”
Who says? You? It’s not your “choice” to make. Not for someone else.
The answer to this problem is found in the film “It’s A Wonderful Life.”
“I used to wish that my mom had gone through with the abortion when I was suicidal. I really just needed help”
I’m glad you are here Jack.
While I respect the various opinions expressed, I have time and again seen people trapped by their self pity. I’m a “victim” so that explains and excuses everything.
Its been my experience that self pity is far more destructive than any physical and mental handicap, and any trauma.
In centuries past life was a brutal struggle to survive, and people had little time for naval gazing. Traumas, tragedy, and loss were part of life’s cycle. Life was not expected to be fair, it was expected to be very difficult.
I recall seeing a young woman in the ER after a drunken nite out. She had soiled herself she was so drunk and belligerent. She was a double amputee, the result of a freak accident. Yes I am sympathetic but she needs someone to tell her to hell with the self pity. Get counselling, go to rehab and get artificial limbs. The remainder of your body and your brain are intact. You have NO excuse to do nothing but drink and wallow in self pity. Any number of paralyzed people would trade places with you in a minute.
Sorry folks, but I have no patience for the above posted naval gazer. I have had to tell a few family members, including my own mother, that the self pity was coming to an end. Sometimes tough love is needed. And in the case of my mother, it worked. I told she was going to get dressed, she was going to the dining room, and she was going to start eating and mingling with people again.
And in my long career, I have seen the destructive force of self pity time and again.
My advise to this whiner is to get a life, see what real problems are, and use your own experience to help better the life of someone else.
If they believe in re-incarnation: Beltter luck next time.
I’m thinking Mary is right-on again. But Mary tends to be s-o-o-o serious. The best way to stop BS is to agree. Yep, I agree: ‘I too wish your Mom had aborted you. Next comment!’
Okay, so I am not nearly in such a bad mood now, lol. I was thinking about what you said, Gerard, and you are right. I was really being judgmental and lacking compassion towards this woman. It’s just a touchy subject for me.
And thanks, Jasper, if you were being serious?
The prolife movement is more concerned with their movement than they are sharing with others about the one who is ALL life, and is the one who “gives” life to begin with— Jesus Christ.
Maybe if we start sharing about the finished work of the cross., and the life that Jesus has to offer, we cannot only save babies we can save mothers and fathers.
Maybe if we let the Joy and Love of Christ show through us, others might want what we have, and then we wouldn’t have to do the see, me seem song and dance pony show.
If we are IN Christ it is his job to work through us, but so many in the prolife movement are concerned with doing their own works, they don’t have time to do the Work of the one who offers life.
You have to reach the mothers with love of Christ in order to save the baby.
It’s the goodness of God that draws us to him.
Hi John 12:41am
That would be a great response! I hope I didn’t sound serious or angry. I think fed up would more accurately describe it. :) In fact, when I visit my hometown and stay with my brother next week I plan a word with him as well about his dwelling on the past. Mainly that I’ve heard it all at least 100 times and its time to move on!!!!! He was a little insulted the last time I did that but….tough. Most important he got the message that self pity gets very tiresome.
Hi JackBorsch 3:02am
I think your posts were spot-on. You weren’t lacking compassion or being judgmental, you were responding to self pity as it should be responded to.
It is interesting how one-sided she can look at it. As if abortion would have been the magical cure for what ailed her mother. I wonder, has she ever considered that having an abortion may have actually made her mother’s life even worse? She could have died. She could have endured harmful mental scars that could have pushed her into psychosis. She could have become so tormented by grief that she committed suicide. Would that have been better? It is dangerous to play the “What Could Have Happened” game because there is no guarantee that her rosy scenario would have been reality.
Also, I found it ironic that she made this statement, “Everything that I have done – including parenting, teaching, researching, and being a loving partner – could have been done as well if not better by other people.” But what if those people had also been aborted because of any type of “suffering” or “misfortune” in their lives?
Tragically, I think this poor woman needs to open her eyes and realize that life isn’t a fairy tale.
Hi Heather,
That statement is indeed ironic. It shows a woman who has accomplished much in her life and continues to do so. If anything she proves a difficult start in life is no excuse for failure or “victimhood”. The very point Jack made in his posts.
Absolutely life is no fairy tale and we can waste our lives away dwelling on “coulda, shoulda, woulda”. I’ve watched too many people do just that, so I have zero tolerance for this woman. She’s right up there with the people who have been “suicidal” for years.
Yes, I’ve seen plenty of those.
I generally read responses to pieces like this from the anti-choice crowd to confirm my bias against church-going folk as largely hypocritical, close-minded and utterly lacking in the one thing they claim to value most – grace. What most of the responders here call self-pity is really just the flip side of the thing displayed in their attitudes in spades – self-righteousness. A truly shameful display and not a ringing endorsement for the faith-based lifestyle.
Then I got to Gerald’s response and MY sanctimoniousness was battered just a bit. He has the ring of someone who has engaged both heart and mind and struggles to find compassion with a human who is suffering rather than get angry with her and pile on a little more abuse as so many responders here did. I have to note that the most vitriolic of the bunch here, Jack, had the most ‘likes’.
I will never set foot in a church again and Jack and his 27 likes are on the long list of reasons why not, but Gerald gives me one small spark of hope that the spirit of Christ has not left this place entirely.
Peace to you all.
Heather, you typed the words right out of my hand!
Jesse,
Mental illness is an equal opportunity disease: it can afflict the religious, the atheists, the rich, the poor, the tall, the short, etc. The unfortunate person who thinks that her own abortion might have cured her mother’s ills writes as one who may be struggling with mental illness herself. I could tell her an equally harrowing tale of a friend who grew up with every material advantage yet was abused very badly. This friend had helped me in more than one crisis, and even if he gets down on himself, the world is far better with him than without him.
No matter what the cause of mental illness, I guarantee abortion will not cure it. No matter what the adversity or problem, I guarantee that abortion will not solve it. It’s never to late to embrace life.
jesse,
Apparently no one ever told you that when you assume, you make an “a**” out of “u” and “me”.
There are people on this site who are both believers and non believers. Pro life people are of all faiths and no faith.
You were making references to some of those who are non believers or agnostics, to the best of my knowledge. Any can correct me if I am wrong.
No need to blame “church goers” for my jerkitude, Jesse. I am not a believer, and my entire adult life only went to church when I was married and my wife made me.
I am actually sorry for coming across with such little compassion for her. It’s just tiring, I guess, to hear how worthless and worthy of nonexistence you are. It gets pretty old if you have heard it your entire life. Not really an excuse, I should have more patience, but whatever I never claimed to be a great person.
But anyway, leaving out my unnecessary vitriol, the points still stand. We don’t start advocating for people’s death before they have ever done anything wrong, simply because they were born into bad circumstances. Everyone deserves at least a chance. Just getting rid of disadvantaged people doesn’t fix the world, it rids it of unique individuals that are just as worthy of living as people born to loving parents and have never been abused, poverty-ridden, etc.
And honestly, I don’t know what she expected out of life but it isn’t easy for anyone. It actually quite thoroughly sucks for the majority of people, it seems. The only person to depend on is yourself. It also seems like she has some weird guilt that she has had some issues with healing that “has cost society”. Which doesn’t even make sense. She could have had a charmed life, never taken anything from anyone,and then suddenly become disabled in a freak accident and end up on assistance. Is that “cost to society” also a net loss for everyone? Of course not.
She’s just seems to have a lot of issues, and instead of working on them or at least only harming herself, she’s taking it out on a group that has no chance of defending themselves.
Hi Jack,
I don’t know why you are so hard on yourself. I felt your posts were spot on. I’m compassionate to a point as well, but sometimes compassion, though very real and well meaning, can only prolong someone else’s self misery and pity.
I’m afraid that over the years my patience has been tried with such individuals and not until I said enough, did they change. In fact, its only when people told me they had enough that I changed!
Perhaps the family and friends of the double amputee woman I previously mentioned thought they were being compassionate and understanding of their family member and friend by tolerating her behavior. They would instead do her a far greater service by saying: we are disgusted with your drunken behavior and we’re sick of the self pity. You have no excuse not to do something constructive with your life. When you’re ready to, call us. We will support you 100%.
Now Jack, I have to get the same message to my brother. Stop forever dwelling on the past, I’ve heard it 100 times, its consuming you, move on!! In fact this woman makes me think of him. My compassion and understanding have run their course!
Jack is being intellectually honest, not ‘hard on himself’. It’s a distinction that is too often glossed over or not understood, especially in these types of forums.
Obviously, I did not read that article with the same filter as most posters here. I find the authors’ statement “…if I could go back in time and make the choice for my mother, it would be abortion.” both unfortunate and very telling.
It’s unfortunate for two reasons. The obvious use of hyperbole (since nobody can actually go ‘back in time’) degrades her overall thesis that sometimes abortion is a valid option. I’ve known of countless people who were born into a brutal reality, lived and were ravaged by their circumstances, and died without ever having known that beauty, joy or even what you and I call ‘normalcy’ were an option for them. At the very least, their young, uneducated and sometimes chemically-dependent parents should have had knowledge about birth-control. But they did not, and abortion was shaded with some sort of cultural stigma, and so, a life was created, raised in misery, abandoned and sooner or later snuffed out. I would ask any ‘pro-lifer’ here what aspect of an existence so completed can be called ‘life’? How would their non-existence have affected anyone adversely? Especially in a society, such as ours, that has billion-dollar industries built on maintaining and profiting on these people? These circumstances don’t ‘just happen’, they aren’t ‘unfortunate’. They are created and managed, just like everything else in the most advanced civilization this planet has yet produced. Including war, which, when looked at from a certain angle, could be thought of as very late-term abortion.
The other unfortunate aspect of that statement is that she clearly states that she would make a choice for her mother, which is a glaring contradiction of her ‘pro-choice’ position.
Let he who is without blame throw the first stone.
She’s a flawed and deeply hurt human being. Vilifying her for an opinion she holds based on her own experience seems deeply wrong to me. Maybe we all should just ‘get over it’ and ‘quit living in the past’ – these things are so easy! And we are all built the same! Right?
Seeing these types of delusional statements tries my compassion to the fullest and makes me want to throw the towel in on humanity.
But Jack can think and temper his vitriol. The apparent Christian Gerard can hold a compassionate space for a human who is obviously damaged human still working through grief. My compassion and desire to to understand my fellow humans known as ‘pro-life’ have not run their course.
Whether the story is true, all fabricated or partially fabricated, the teller is definately using it to push an extreme agenda and further the “war on women” rhetoric.
I just heard the author on NPR stating that woman’s have to fight for their right for birth control and access to condoms, in addition to abortion rights.
I have no trouble getting my $4 a month birth control at Target. Why are other woman having so much trouble doing the same thing?!? (eye roll)
jesse,
One can interpret the article any way one wants. Personally I thought Jack’s posts were spot on. If Jack has second thoughts he is certainly able to speak for himself and has.
Now, this is obviously an educated intelligent woman who likes living and has not taken the option of suicide. That speaks volumes. Odd that she loves living but wishes she had been aborted, ya think? Believe me jesse, I have seen enough suicides to know that when people want to kill themselves, nothing stops them. It may take a couple of tries, or only one try, but they will succeed.
If this woman needs help then fine, get it. In the meantime, dispense with the “woe is me” crap. In my many years in th medical area I have seen too much suffering, abuse, senseless maiming and death, misfortune, fortitude, courage, despair, hopelessness, etc. to be terribly moved by someone like this. To me this is a diatribe of self pity. This is a woman who if she needs help, has the capacity to get it. Go for it.
As I said jesse, sometimes the greatest compassion and concern is expressed by telling someone enough with the self pity, I’m not listening to it anymore. Get the help you need and I will be there to support you. Hopefully this woman has friends and loved ones who have enough compassion for her to do just that. Get help or put a sock in it.
BTW, people have done it for me, and in retrospect these were great acts of friendship that propelled me forward. I’m only sorry it took so long to heed their advice at times!
Hi Amy,
Certainly does make you wonder. Good grief contraception has been around for decades.
Supposedly “millions” of women use it so it can’t be that hard to obtain.
Shouldn’t we be concerned about the circumstances under which pregnancies are CONCEIVED? There’s no question of abortion when there’s no conception. I didn’t abort because of the sexual predator to whom I was attracted (although I had nightmares about abortions) because we never physically touched.
The circumstances of conception are important. As I pointed out, David Berkowitz shot women in lovers’ lanes because he believed they might conceive and that babies they birthed would be placed for adoption as he had been. The truth is that he was RIGHT. A conception in the back seat of a car is more likely to lead to an adoption placement than a conception in a marital bedroom.
@jesse: I’m going to respond to two points in your last comment, since those two underpin all the rest of it.
…A life was created, raised in misery, abandoned and sooner or later snuffed out. I would ask any ‘pro-lifer’ here what aspect of an existence so completed can be called ‘life’? How would their non-existence have affected anyone adversely?
This attitude is precisely what made Jack so mad in the first place. You said yourself that you know “of” these people. You don’t know them. You have no idea whatsoever what kind of joy or triumph they experienced. And you most absolutely could not have known that before their birth. By simply writing off those less fortunate than you as unworthy of life and deserving abortion, you arrogantly assume that your sort of life is the only one worth living and anyone who can’t have it doesn’t deserve to live at all. You would steal from all those lives, not simply the opportunity for any future goodness, but the actual goodness itself from everyone who has it, just because you didn’t think they deserved that shot.
Getting angry in response to such an attitude is neither a “lack of grace” nor “self-righteousness.” It is the logical response of someone who values life when confronted with someone who does not and is successfully using that devaluation to hurt others. The author’s situation is sympathetic. Her use of that situation to advocate for the deaths of innocent people absolutely is not.
Vilifying her for an opinion she holds based on her own experience seems deeply wrong to me.
Opinions are not sacred. Deeply held beliefs are not unquestionable simply because they are deeply held and sincerely believed. Opinions are also not harmless. If you thought they weren’t, I doubt you’d trouble yourself to interact with pro-lifers. As I stated before, that this woman feels so worthless is tragic and sad. That she projects her own self-disgust onto innocent third-parties, on the other hand, is not sad. It’s wrong. Desperately, deeply, shockingly wrong. So while I do pity this author, that pity is very limited since she is using her situation (which, as you pointed out, is hers alone and no one else’s) to craft a narrative that claims innocent lives.
There is never a situation that makes that okay. Ever.
”I would ask any ‘pro-lifer’ here what aspect of an existence so completed can be called ‘life’? How would their non-existence have affected anyone adversely?”
Alice said the rest of what I would have said. I just want to respond to this. Who the heck are you to say that someone else never had a life? You are not them. You don’t know their thoughts, feelings, or anything else. I was raised in an absolutely hideous environment, I can’t actually remember a single day before I ran away when I was seventeen that I wasn’t abused in some way. Actually, the only affection I ever remember getting as a kid was from someone who was sexually abusing me, so it completely screwed me up. And I still completely, one hundred percent, reject this “literally kill them with kindness” approach that you and the poster seem to be advocating. You don’t get to preemptively kill off kids like me just because some (or even most, for that matter) might have craptastic lives. You can begin healing from a broken, terrible childhood, it’s difficult but not impossible, but you have to be alive to do so. Like Alexandra said, this “babies born into disadvantaged situations should be aborted” is incredibly lazy. Seriously, with our millions of years of evolution, our advanced brains, our critical thinking skills, we can’t think of ways to prevent these kinds of things without shrugging and saying “meh, they might have a terrible life, we should kill them before they are born”? Come on now.
I realize some people never overcome what was done to them as a child, and that is terrible. I wish that no child suffered or was abused, and I wish that everyone who did suffer like that was able to heal and learn to live with some sense of safety and happiness. That doesn’t mean that I will ever support the legal killing of humans, just in case they might grow up like that.
“I don’t know why you are so hard on yourself. I felt your posts were spot on. I’m compassionate to a point as well, but sometimes compassion, though very real and well meaning, can only prolong someone else’s self misery and pity.”
Yeah, well I don’t think I am wrong, that’s not what I was backtracking on. She and Gerard were right, though, that I was just being angry rather than wanting to say anything productive. I certainly wouldn’t want to listen to someone who was simply insulting, no matter how right they were, so I shouldn’t expect to be taken seriously if I act like that.
First of all, I want to say thanks for the civility of this discourse – this is a first for me on this topic and on an ‘away’ field. I truly do appreciate the dialogue.
And Jack, you are right – i haven’t lived your life. Perhaps i presumed too much and that was not my intention. But i have know people who were born into chaos, lived in it a while and died. While it certainly was something, is that what we are advocating? “Anything Goes – Have At It!”? That’s what your position sounds like to me.
I’m not saying abortion is a solution, but it is, and certainly always be, an option, especially if one has money. I just think it should be an informed option, and one that has exceptional support behind it (i.e. clean facilities, trained staff, good counseling, etc.).
And not to get off topic or be a provocateur, but when is it ok to take another persons’ life? I notice a distinct absence of ‘pro-lifers’ at anti war, anti-death penalty rallies/forums, and such minded things. I’ve always been curious about that.
“ But i have know people who were born into chaos, lived in it a while and died. While it certainly was something, is that what we are advocating? “Anything Goes – Have At It!”? That’s what your position sounds like to me. “
That’s not what I am advocating. I am advocating that it’s wrong and extremely bad policy (and pretty dangerous, actually) to decide that other’s lives are not worth living, based on your or whoever else’s subjective interpretation of how horrible or painful it is. Like I said, I don’t think my death would have been preferable to the suffering I endured. Someone else, even my own mother, shouldn’t have been legally able to decide that I was better off being killed before being born. The same goes for all humans, imo. I am not sure where people draw this line of when other people’s suffering is too much to bear, and death is preferable? If the person who is the one suffering wants to off his or herself, I would hope that they would have access to help and find a better way, but at least suicide would be their choice. What this whole “better aborted than abused” thing is saying is the opposite, that other people have the right to make that decision for people. That’s not okay with me.
”I’m not saying abortion is a solution, but it is, and certainly always be, an option, especially if one has money. I just think it should be an informed option, and one that has exceptional support behind it (i.e. clean facilities, trained staff, good counseling, etc.). “
Sure, it will always be some sort of option. Illegality isn’t going to erase it. All sorts of things that kill humans or otherwise damage them are options, legal or not. I don’t think that abortion should be a legal option at all, we obviously disagree on that matter.
”And not to get off topic or be a provocateur, but when is it ok to take another persons’ life? I notice a distinct absence of ‘pro-lifers’ at anti war, anti-death penalty rallies/forums, and such minded things. I’ve always been curious about that. ”
Yeah, that’s your impression. Not exactly accurate, I am anti-war, anti-DP, and a vegetarian to boot. I know a lot of the Catholics are also anti-DP as far as I can tell. You can’t put people in a box, they rarely fit. And I know very few people all together who I would consider “pro-war” in the first place. Some people think that some wars are justified, some don’t. It has little to do with legally killing fetuses.
I’m not saying it should or should not be a legal option. I’m saying that since it will be an option, it should be a safe one. I feel the same about drugs. Legalize them, remove the stigma, and give people quick access to quality resources to get them healthy and making healthy choices asap.
The ONLY way to make it not an option is through education. That is the beginning and end of it. Are we all fighting for comprehensive, high quality education for all? Even then, some will choose it, and that is the curse/blessing of free will. There is no way to legislate free will out of humankind.
I realize that you have pulled yourself out of whatever bunk hand you were dealt and that is cool. But you have to also know that you are the exception. If you have the capacity to read, you KNOW this. What’s your view on the others? The dead and incarcerated and ghosted? Weaklings?
I know firsthand the damage that abortion does. I also know the damage that living does. Who are you to choose life for someone when their parent can’t? Are you going to be there to make everything ok, and let them know the wrong paths from the right? Cause if you can’t then the truth of it is “good luck with that junkie deadbeat parent, sucker, I got you this far.”
That is a heavy trip to lay on someone at age 1 second.
This woman will never find peace until she learns to acknowledge the value in her suffering. We as a people do not appreciate that our suffering is itself of value. And as long as the purpose of her existence is to avoid suffering, her existence will be lacking.
@ Alice ”So while I do pity this author, that pity is very limited since she is using her situation (which, as you pointed out, is hers alone and no one else’s) to craft a narrative that claims innocent lives.”
Narratives do not claim lives. They may be enabling, but the deliberate taking of life is a human choice. Are you denying free will? Did God err in giving it to us? If so, do you fight the countless other murder enabling narratives? Or is this a pet project?
jesse,
Where does your support of “free will” end? Child molestation is a choice, right? Should it be legal, ‘cuz, hay, who’s gonna legislate free will and choices, right?!
I think the thing that most aggravates me about the way this topic is constantly framed is that it is put in terms of legality. This is not a legal issue. It is an education issue. I do not advocate throwing money at a campaign to create laws making abortion illegal. I do advocate prioritizing educating people. This issue is and always will be about choice and choices. Nobody legislated yours. You got your education organically. All we can ever hope to do is improve the quality of education around us. That seems to be a realistic and productive goal that I could get with.
Also, I don’t “support free will”. It either exists or it doesn’t. Christians are the ones saying it’s a real thing and then acting like God gave them a right to take it from others.
IS anyone concerned with the circumstances of CONCEPTION?
Isn’t conception best when it is within a happy and financially stable marriage and when the woman in whose body takes place is yearning to have a baby?
Narratives do not claim lives. They may be enabling, but the deliberate taking of life is a human choice. Are you denying free will? Did God err in giving it to us? If so, do you fight the countless other murder enabling narratives? Or is this a pet project?
I agree that the narrative itself is not the responsible party. People’s choices are. So I’ll cop to phrasing this poorly. But, people don’t just do stuff, they have reasons for acting. Abortion apologetics aren’t a theoretical exercise that occurs in some vacuum that is divorced from the real world. Actual human beings die every day because other human beings decide to act on defences of abortion like the one this author laid out. That doesn’t make the narrative the primary actor, but ideas are not powerless things. You want to frame this issue as a purely educational one. I disagree with that, but to use your framework, that would make this author’s article a “bad education.”
I am very passionate about ending abortion in specific, though. So, I suppose you could call it something of a pet project. I take it rather more seriously, but it’s not an unfair characterization.
These next two things you didn’t say to me specifically, but they’re worth responding to, so I’m going to grab them.
I’m not saying it should or should not be a legal option. I’m saying that since it will be an option, it should be a safe one.
Do you remember that uproar a little while ago when the American Paediatric Association tried to lay out guidelines for safely performing ceremonial female genital mutilation? The procedures they suggested were very mild, would not have resulted in the permanent damage many girls suffer, and were to be carried out in clinical settings. And everyone went ballistic over this, right? Because a violation of someone’s rights is a violation of their rights, no matter how safe the setting is in which said violation is carried out. No girl should be mutilated, even a tiny little bit. Nor should we legitimize such a practice by sanctioning a “correct” way to perform FGM.
Abortion is a violation of rights. And a violation of rights is a violation of rights, whether it’s carried out “safely” or not. Certainly a successful abortion is never safe for the child being aborted.
Who are you to choose life for someone when their parent can’t? Are you going to be there to make everything ok, and let them know the wrong paths from the right? Cause if you can’t then the truth of it is “good luck with that junkie deadbeat parent, sucker, I got you this far.”
This is, to be frank, like telling someone who gives food to hungry people that unless they can also hook every single hungry person up with a lifelong source of food production, they should let them starve. You are right that the pro-life movement can not solve every problem that every person is going to face. We certainly can’t solve all of them at once. But when you see someone in danger and you can try to help them, you should try. Even if that means they will then face some other problem that they would not have faced had they died. To tell someone that “Your life is going to be hard, so I’m going to take it from you,” is a much heavier trip to lay on someone at age anything.
“I’m not saying it should or should not be a legal option. I’m saying that since it will be an option, it should be a safe one. I feel the same about drugs. Legalize them, remove the stigma, and give people quick access to quality resources to get them healthy and making healthy choices asap. “
No, drugs and other things that people do to themselves are in a different class of activity than taking another human’s life. I do agree drugs should be decriminalized btw, but it’s a whole other issue compared to whether it should be legal to abort a human fetus.
”The ONLY way to make it not an option is through education. That is the beginning and end of it. Are we all fighting for comprehensive, high quality education for all? Even then, some will choose it, and that is the curse/blessing of free will. There is no way to legislate free will out of humankind.”
Again, of course some people will still choose it. People still choose to murder, rape, abuse, steal, and do all sorts of things. That has little to do with whether it’s a good idea for society to allow one class of humans to be legally terminated. We aren’t rushing to legalize any of these other activities that we have deemed severely harm other people.
“ I realize that you have pulled yourself out of whatever bunk hand you were dealt and that is cool. But you have to also know that you are the exception. If you have the capacity to read, you KNOW this. What’s your view on the others? The dead and incarcerated and ghosted? Weaklings? ”
Not really pulled myself out… all I managed to do was not become an absolutely terrible person. Success! Lol, in all seriousness, no, I don’t consider people who aren’t doing as “well” as me weak. They aren’t me, they have different experiences, different brains, different mental problems, etc. And I am not THAT rare, ffs. People can deal with a lot. I notice a severe lack of suicides in concentration camp survivors, for instance.
The kids at the shelter I volunteer with have a problem with people like you telling them that they are not likely to do better. I actually internalized a lot of that when I was a kid too, and it’s hell to get over. You aren’t helping with the whole “people rarely get out of these circumstances” stuff. I never thought I would be anything other than a damaged junkie, the kids I see don’t think that that they will ever be anything other than victims and the dregs of society. What do you think it does to people to hear, over and over, that their chances are so small that they might have been better off never existing?
”I know firsthand the damage that abortion does. I also know the damage that living does. Who are you to choose life for someone when their parent can’t? Are you going to be there to make everything ok, and let them know the wrong paths from the right? Cause if you can’t then the truth of it is “good luck with that junkie deadbeat parent, sucker, I got you this far.” ”
I can guarantee you that almost every pro-lifer who posts here gives back to people a LOT more than most people I have known. I volunteer a teen homeless shelter. A lot of the women who post here help women through crisis pregnancies, and even more help with charities to feed and clothe low income women and their kids. We spend a LOT of time helping people who are having a hard time. I know I come across as a jerk but I am really not in real life lol.
And parents shouldn’t “choose life” for their kids. Kids have the right to their own life. My mom almost beat me to death when I was eight, I suppose that was her right because she didn’t want to deal with me anymore? Do you people look at what you write sometimes?
“I think the thing that most aggravates me about the way this topic is constantly framed is that it is put in terms of legality. This is not a legal issue. It is an education issue. I do not advocate throwing money at a campaign to create laws making abortion illegal. I do advocate prioritizing educating people. This issue is and always will be about choice and choices. Nobody legislated yours. You got your education organically. All we can ever hope to do is improve the quality of education around us. That seems to be a realistic and productive goal that I could get with.”
Sigh. It is a legal, educational, and social issue. It takes all approaches to even make a dent. Education and helping people are fine, but as long as it’s a legal, defended option no one is getting very far. You’ll find most pro-lifers don’t stop at just wanting laws on the books. Not many people are that short sighted.
o
I would tell this woman to stop lying. She can’t at the same time truthfully say that she has built a life that she loves, and say that she wishes she had been aborted.
These thinks don’t fit together.
Her message is that all people who don’t have perfect circumstances should be killed.
This would stop the human motivation for working to improve social conditions. Killing is so much easier for these lefties.
Have none of you ever looked at your own parents and thought, “I wish they’d never gotten together,” or, “They never should have married,” or “They never should have had kids.” I’ve thought about my parents in that way. Yes, I know that means I wouldn’t exist, but it doesn’t mean I don’t sometimes think about how their lives would have been better had they not married and had children together. It doesn’t mean that I’m wishing myself out of existence. It just means that I can look at the situation objectively and say while I’m thrilled to be alive and have a happy life, I can also see why my parents never should have gotten together.
This woman is doing something similar. She’s not wishing herself out of existence. She’s not saying she hates that she was born. She is looking at her life with some objectivity and recognizing that it would have been better for her mother and for herself if she had not been born.
You’re treating her like she’s saying something so outrageous and so absurd that it’s completely illogical. She’s not being illogical.
Ella Rae,
There is a difference between “I wish my parents would’ve never met.” and “I wish my mom would’ve killed me when she had the chance.”
One might have actually made a difference in mom’s life for the better. The other…not so much. Can you tell them apart?
Jack,
So grateful to God for you and your life and the children that you have. You are a survivor and can articulate what so many of us cannot. We haven’t lived what you have lived. You bring such an amazing perspective!
Thank you.
Thank you lots Carla. :)
hi jesse et all,
Methinks you and many others make some very fundamental errors here. The ‘lessons’ that I will write about here are very different than those you have expressed. I fundamentally propose that writing anything leaves any meaning of interpretation – open. It is not this same ambivalent situation, with a hug. I would in writing hate the pity-party she has written (seems she loves the role of being a violin-playing drama-queen), but in actuality - say nothing, and give her the biggest hug [if she’d permit it!].
I used to repeat the old saying: ‘There are no atheists in the foxhole!’ A pc-er quickly responded with a silly link to show that there indeed atheists-in-the-military. The saying means being-stuck (really stuck) … an option, any option does-not-exist! For the poor, ‘an-option/abortion is a rich man’s solution — far too simple + very STUPID’. Your ‘option’ o f education, is a poor one because much of modern education increases the distance between the head and the heart.
And jesse try not to get applause by being/favouring a drama-queen! Not worth it.
Hi John! I’m not sure that what you wrote there was originally written in English, but it seems to have got horribly mangled in translation. Tally-ho there, fella!
And Jack, you state your case very eloquently and clearly and I want to say thanks for putting in the time. Your original post is what inspired me to post here as it seemed to be a very knee-jerk and cliché response to what seems to me a very nuanced statement. But you stated your position clearly and backed it up with some solid bona fides. You’ve made pigeon-holing pro-lifers a little more difficult.
I will never fight to make abortion illegal, but i will work to make it unnecessary. Peace.
@ jesse: Hooray! Hooray! Hooray! Outlawing tries to get at supply. But the real way to get rid of something is to end the demand for it. When all pregnancies are welcome, the abortionists will have to find something else to do.
This woman is doing something similar. She’s not wishing herself out of existence. She’s not saying she hates that she was born. She is looking at her life with some objectivity and recognizing that it would have been better for her mother and for herself if she had not been born.
Wow! Thank you Ella Rae! Someone else on this blog gets it. Jackie boy and X feel like they speak for the world cause they were abused. They know it all and can speak for every abused person. Their brilliance cannot be questioned. Fact is, abortion is more humane in many cases where the woman would subject a child to a horrific existence.
And you speak for the children of the abused because your so darned omniscient you know what their lives will be like. How brilliant and humane you must be!
I guess I can always borrow an apostrophe. They’re so darned overpopulated on the Net.
I could sneak in the “teacher’s lounge” and edit, but I think I’ll leave my mistake forever etched in the interwebs!
Glad you recognize my brilliance. ;)
again – tho i don’t truly see the point in constantly re-stating this as passion has replaced compassion in many hearts here – nobody gets the right to speak for anybody else. NOBODY. We are here to have our experience and learn what there is to learn and move on. Do you people truly not see the contradiction in you wanting to legislate someone’s choice out of existence so that a potential human may be born? WHO ARE YOU TO MAKE THAT CHOICE? And it’s a choice you are willing to make for two theoretical parties that you don’t even know! The arrogance of this stunning.
We haven’t even got into the sustainable population levels of this planet.
* We have compassion for both mother and child. That’s twice as much as yours.
* You’re speaking for said mother and child, just as much as we are. The difference is, we want both to be around to tell us if our concern was justified or not.
* We do want everyone to have their experience and learn what there is to learn and move on. You, however, don’t care if these children move on before experiencing life and learning what there is to learn.
* You like the fact that someone’s entire lifetime of choices is legislated out of existence so that a potentially good mother may have her irrevocable poor choice carried out post haste.
* WHO ARE YOU TO MAKE THAT CHOICE? And it’s a choice you are willing to make for two theoretical parties that you don’t even know! The arrogance of this (is) stunning.
* I suppose you want to be one of those people sustained on this planet. Perhaps you’re the one with more passion than compassion.
Jake, you don’t deserve an honest answer but I will give one anyway. I don’t speak for everyone who has been abused. I speak for me, only. If someone else who had a terrible childhood wishes to end their life that’s their choice, not their parents. Apparently, you don’t think abused kids get any choice at all. If their mom wants to end their life, that’s fine with you. And you claim that I want to speak for everyone? Heck no man. I only speak for those of us who narrowly escaped being killed by those who were supposed yo ove us, and are tired of being told we are so worthless that our mothers should have killed us when they had the chance.
You call us anti-choice when you don’t even want people to have the power to decide whether or not they will continue to live. I find that disgusting.
I always love it when people try to scold pro-lifers for “taking away choices” while they babble on about how people who were born into terrible circumstances are just worthless and should be put out of their misery. Who are YOU, Jesse, to make that choice? Who is anyone to make that choice for someone else? Would you be cool with it if someone else decided your life wasn’t worth living? Or that you were too much of a bother so you shouldnt exist? If someone wants to make the choice for suicide, that’s sad but it is really up to them. But no one should get the choice to kill someone else.
You side with the abusers, really. All this compassion for people like my mom, who wanted me dead or hurt, as a fetus and a born child. No compassion for the kids who deserve to have a chance to live their lives.
i never said “people who were born into terrible circumstances are just worthless and should be put out of their misery.” but i understand that mischaracterization of my position and deliberate misunderstanding are just part of your tactics. This also shows the weakness of your argument.
I suppose it goes without saying but I really would not be anything – cool or other wise – had I been aborted. I’m not quite sure what the point of that question is, but I suppose it’s a strong emotional trigger to your audience.
And the reason you are losing and will continue to is that the science does not support you. Call cells kids all you want – that does not change the basic fact that they are utterly dependent on a fully formed human for it’s existence. An estimated 30% of all fertilized eggs self abort. You better start fighting nature.
Oh wait, you are.
Oh yeah, you boys make some impassioned arguments for these ladies. I’m curious, what other choices are women too stupid to decide for themselves, in your opinions?
Not exactly a misinterpretation of your positions. You speak of people you know who “lived in misery and then died” as a buttress for your argument that abortion could be a preferable choice. Apparently, you know for a fact that those people had no positive effect on the world, never experienced joy, and that their death before birth wouldnt have effected anything negatively. That’s a lot of arrogant assumptions, if we are accusing each other of being arrogant.
You wouldn’t know it if you were aborted. True. You also wouldn’t know it if you were killed as a newborn either, but I rarely hear you guys plead for legal infanticide. Pro-choicers don’t seem to have an issue seeing that a newborns lack of awareness and such means that it isn’t wrong to kill them, but then you apply the same argument to a fetus with a straight face. Seems like a bit of cognitive dissonance.
Oh wait, it is the dependency issue with you huh? First off, those “cells” are at the proper stage of development for any human at the embryonic or fetal stage of development. All of us start out that way, we were the same organism then as we are now, just younger and less developed. Second, being dependent on someone else for survival is also how we all started out, and the only way that our species propagates. It isn’t a crime to be dependent on someone else, it is just natural for that state of development. Claiming that an embryo or fetus isn’t a life because it is in exactly the stage it is supposed to be at that time in its life doesnt make any sense. And some embryos die? So? All humans die naturally eventually. Natural death doesnt mean deliberately killing someone is all right.
Don’t start the whole “you think women are stupid
and can’t make their own decisions” thing. Most of the pro-lifers on this site are women btw. Women can make every decision that men can. No adult, male or female, should be able to decide to end someone else’s life.
Let’s not bother with him anymore, Jack. After all, he’s just a collection of cells. And quite obviously not a fully developed human, either.
hahaha – you guys really are that simplistic.
Well, you are right in that conversation with people who are so entrenched in one way of thinking is pointless. I came here out of curiosity to engage ‘the other side’ on this topic. I don’t see you as the other side as we are all part of the consciousness of this place, trying to grow and make it through with some semblance of sanity. It has been an informative, if disappointing, exercise.
“Let’s not bother with him anymore.”
You do understand that dismissiveness only makes it easy to to the same to your arguments, don’t you? Unless you plan on some sort of armed action (and I do not put it past you, which is always an irony of ‘your side’), this entire thing needs to be hashed out in words – the sphere of ideas if you will. Until we raise the consciousness of this place to a point where unwanted pregnancies don’t occur, abortion will be practiced. Do you know how prohibition affected alcohol sales? Do you really think making this illegal will have any effect on it’s occurrence? You can’t possibly think that, which leaves me only to wonder as to your honest motives in all this.
I don’t know for a fact anything about anyone else’s effect on anyone else. Once again, you mischaracterize my position, presumably to make your weak one more appealing to the emotionally oriented. I guess that’s a valid tactic when you’re preaching to the choir.
But once again, your mother CHOSE to have you. She had the choice, and she chose you. You would take that choice from everyone else. Apparently you know the right path, for everyone, for all time.
Because we all have the same psychological makeup.
And support systems.
And access to resources.
And because you made good with your life from such a low starting point, gosh dangit, everyone, everywhere else can too! Ladies, Jack and Hans have made the tough choices for you, so you don’t have to! So relax and get to populatin!
“You do understand that dismissiveness only makes it easy to to the same to your arguments, don’t you? ”
Jake comes on here, makes jokes about people who were abused, and says dumb stuff and never actually has a conversation. He has been doing it for months. We don’t dismiss people who want to actually discuss, we do dismiss trolls that want to get a reaction.
”Until we raise the consciousness of this place to a point where unwanted pregnancies don’t occur, abortion will be practiced. Do you know how prohibition affected alcohol sales? Do you really think making this illegal will have any effect on it’s occurrence? You can’t possibly think that, which leaves me only to wonder as to your honest motives in all this.”
Unlike drugs and alcohol, abortion involves one person deciding to end the life of another. Honestly, what other crimes involving one person harming another do you wish to keep legal? I am not being sarcastic, I am genuinely wondering if you can try to look at it from our perspective, with the fetus as a human. Imagine if someone was trying to tell you killing newborns should remain legal because it is going to happen anyway, and you don’t want stigma put on the people who do it. Really, if you accept that the fetus is a human being, the thought of keeping abortion “legal, safe and rare” is pretty repugnant. And no, that doesn’t mean that we don’t support any non-legal measures to lower abortion rates too, it’s just that we want to work on legality at the same time.
”I don’t know for a fact anything about anyone else’s effect on anyone else. Once again, you mischaracterize my position, presumably to make your weak one more appealing to the emotionally oriented. I guess that’s a valid tactic when you’re preaching to the choir.”
Lol as opposed to you trying to paint my motives whichever way you want because you just can’t seem to grasp that I think fetuses are humans? You are very frustrating.
I’ve known of countless people who were born into a brutal reality, lived and were ravaged by their circumstances, and died without ever having known that beauty, joy or even what you and I call ‘normalcy’ were an option for them. At the very least, their young, uneducated and sometimes chemically-dependent parents should have had knowledge about birth-control. But they did not, and abortion was shaded with some sort of cultural stigma, and so, a life was created, raised in misery, abandoned and sooner or later snuffed out. I would ask any ‘pro-lifer’ here what aspect of an existence so completed can be called ‘life’? How would their non-existence have affected anyone adversely?
Try and tell me that you aren’t making a judgment for these people who you know. Actually, look at my last comment on this subject because it still stands.
”But once again, your mother CHOSE to have you. She had the choice, and she chose you. You would take that choice from everyone else. Apparently you know the right path, for everyone, for all time.”
No, she was stuck in a cult and didn’t have much of a choice in that matter. But, it doesn’t matter now. The whole point that you refuse to acknowledge is what she was choosing. You think it is right that she could legally kill me for whatever reason, I am of the opinion that human lives shouldn’t depend on whether their parents like them or want them. Stop pretending lifers want to ruin all the ladies fun, we don’t wish to take away 99.99% of choices. We do want to take away the right to kill their offspring, just like none of us would support a man killing his newborn because he didn’t feel ready to be a dad.
”Because we all have the same psychological makeup.
And support systems.
And access to resources. ”
I think it’s hilarious that you repeatedly misstate my position while crying that I am misstating yours. I never said everyone had the same resources or abilities. I actually said the exact opposite, but don’t let facts get in your way.
”And because you made good with your life from such a low starting point, gosh dangit, everyone, everywhere else can too! Ladies, Jack and Hans have made the tough choices for you, so you don’t have to! So relax and get to populatin!”
Don’t be stupid, please. That’s not what I said, and you know it. And whatever, I will take the “blame” for wanting to take away the “choice” of abortion, as if that were a bad thing. I think the focus on my gender instead of my arguments is telling, btw. A female (Xalisae, Alice, Mary, Carla… those are just a fraction of the women on this blog who think the same way I do about this subject) could make the same arguments about abortion and they would be no more or less valid when I make them.
Jesse,
As a woman whose life you would have supported being extinguished had my mother chose that path, I DO NOT CONDONE YOU SPEAKING FOR ME. Furthermore, I do not appreciate your implication that the mere existence of a man’s opinion on this thread somehow nullifies or supercedes my own ability to speak and be heard. I chose until this time to read and wait because Jack was speaking eloquently and accurately of the pro-life arguments. While he continues to do so, it has become infuriating enough to read this drivel about him making our choices for us.
You came onto Jill’s blog and found an honest discussion. In fact, you said, “First of all, I want to say thanks for the civility of this discourse – this is a first for me on this topic and on an ‘away’ field. I truly do appreciate the dialogue. “
But then you accuse the same person of dismissiveness as a debate tactic. I would honestly suggest that before you respond to any more posts, you sit and think awhile and possibly re-read the discussion some. Your arguments are getting weaker.
It is a straw man argument to imply that by illegalizing abortion we would be making of women babymaking machines. (ie, “Ladies, Jack and Hans have made the tough choices for you, so you don’t have to! So relax and get to populatin!”) Somehow women have managed to change the world drastically for centuries, and removing access to things like abortion and birth control aren’t going to change that now. Quite frankly, I am offended at the indication that women are too stupid to figure out how to maintain happy relationships without birth control and not have passels of children. I have 2, a 4 year old and a 2.5 year old, and I am a successful restaurant manager at an established 24-hour restaurant with over 30 employees. My husband and I have a healthy and active relationship without the addition of birth control or abortion.
And I didn’t need anyone else’s help making those decisions, nor was I unable to speak my mind when they were there to be made. I’m sure many women are reading this discourse via email or on Jill’s blog and have not chimed in not because they are incapable of doing so, but because they don’t feel the need.
What someone is or is not capable of does not determine his or her worth. Your worth, and mine, are determined by the fact that we are made human. We are, and have been since our conceptions, living humans with definite and intrinsic value. You are valuable not because you can give speeches or write stories or solve complex mathematical equations; you are valuable because you are Jesse, you, and the only you. No other argument is of any particular significance to the debate because it will never be my right, or anyone else’s, to stop your life. Not because you are slated for greatness, not because you are slated for misery. Because you are you and there will never be another.
Look, somewhere in this thread I was lumped in as ‘you people’ and I think i was actually called an abortionist, as though I am saying that abortion should be mandatory and free for everyone. (What exactly is an abortionist, btw? does that really exist?) I found both of these things to be rotten and my hackles are up. I’m still interested in having this conversation however as most of my friends and acquaintances are on ‘my side’. If I’m ever to have a full understanding of this topic and the position I oppose, I need information and perspective. I apologize if I seemed to be speaking for someone else, as this is the exact opposite of my entire position.
Nobody can speak for another. Pregnancy is a special condition, without exact parallels in the rest of life. A mother makes a thousand decisions for her child before it is born. If the mother is not of sound mind and heart to make good decisions, I still think a ‘safe’ (i do realize the contradiction in this, but bear with me) termination should be an option for her. Otherwise it will be pills. Or a hangar. Or worse. You cannot legislate morality. That’s just not how things work.
Mary, you are not exactly the demographic I am thinking of when I state my views on this topic. You are in possession of your senses and probably have a robust support system built around you. You can, in the fullest sense, make sound choices on your reproductive life and health, and you have many available to you. Even if abortion were illegal, you could probably afford to have a safe abortion should the need arise. You seem to be well placed in this society.
But you have to understand that there are many many women who are not as fortunate as you. Whose circumstances differ from yours as vastly as night from day. Would you walk into an AA meeting with a bottle of whiskey? Why not?
We are the sum of the choices we make, not of the laws we obey.
And you are all fully aware that this issue is just the tip of one spear for many people with religious and political agendas. I know there are honest players in your camp, but there are some seriously compromised individuals using this topic for their personal gain.
Jesse,
I am Pro-Life. I am poor, and from a poor background. The reason I am Pro-Life is because my first pregnancy was with a man who wanted me to abort our daughter. We had no place of ours to live. I was the only one working between us, and when I got pregnant, I had to quit my job. He was abusive, and as time went on, became abusive in a few ways. He threatened to kill himself if I didn’t abort (he was going to hurt himself if I didn’t get an abortion-should that mean it should’ve been legal for him to do something to me which would’ve caused our daughter to die in utero? What about HIS safety?!). The reason I’m Pro-Life is because I look at my daughter now, and see the person she is, and see that she should’ve always had a right to live, regardless of how young she was back then, and regardless of my feelings or those of my ex-husband. If I had been ignorant about human reproduction enough to have believed all the “clump of cells” or “lump of tissue” crap back then, maybe I would’ve been convinced to “act in my own best interests” and get an abortion. That’s why a law should exist to protect children in that position. If I had been too poor to afford one and done something to try and kill my daughter that would’ve most likely injured me, it’s obvious I would’ve been in poor mental health. Sane people don’t injure themselves to facilitate killing their children. We don’t change laws to accommodate insane people. I’m not religious, so I have no greater agenda. Just my scientific knowledge and personal experience.
Does that help?
Jesse: “Nobody can speak for another.”
So you’re saying, on behalf of all people, that they cannot say anything on behalf of others. :-D
“You cannot legislate morality. That’s just not how things work.”
Really? Which of the following legislated crimes are not moral issues?
Oral Copulation by Force
Rape
Hit & Run
Extortion
Spousal Rape
Receiving Stolen Property
Embezzlement
Sexual Battery
Nursing Home Abuse
Murder
Hate Crimes
Child Abuse
Vandalism
Robbery
Arson
Torture
Identity Theft
Drive-by Shooting
Kidnapping
Lewd Acts with a Minor
Inciting a Riot
Carjacking
Incest
Child Pornography
Battery
Oral Copulation of a Minor
Grand Theft Auto
Sexual Acts with a Child Under 10
Lynching
Shoplifting
Looting
Voluntary Manslaughter
In all seriousness, where on EARTH do you come up with the idea that morality can’t be legislated? There are very few laws that do NOT legislate morality. And indeed, those laws are generally tossed out for being, themselves, immoral. Why? Because it’s not just to compel behavior unless there is some moral basis for expecting the particular behavior.
Now true, there are myriad laws that are mostly procedural, and their penalties are often ridiculous and unjust. “If you don’t have your town parking sticker by June 1, you’ll pay a fine of $200!” But the existence of amoral laws — which themselves might be unjust and hence immoral — does not mean that the above violations have no moral dimension either. Surely you’ll recant the most silly proposition that can be made in this regard — that “you can’t legislate morality.”
Jesse is yet another would-be white knight fighting an imaginary dragon. He thinks Jack and I are in his way.
What he doesn’t seem to notice are all the fair maidens on this site who are telling him to pick up his lance and scram, because they don’t need his protection.
It just bothers me immensely when someone presumes to speak about both law and morality, and then impugns their own credibility — completely — by disclaiming any relationship between them. In a way so easily shown to be ridiculous.
For me, the issue is that a blind spot that huge must be occluding a heck of a lot. Ya just don’t know how to converse with folks who might, at any moment . . . well let’s just say that if I were counting on such a person to alert me to any elephants stampeding in my direction, I’d be concerned.
Xalise – thank you for that. Yes it does help. As i said before, I’m just looking for info and perspective from the other camp on this. Your thoughtful response is much appreciated.
Hans, you’ve given me very little to think about, and you’re not in the way of anything. Get over yourself. Jack has made some good points, even if he had to be a jerk while doing so.
Rasqual – Wow! I’d never thought of that! You are totally right! Since those laws have been put in place, people have become completely moral and none of those things occur anymore, because everyone became moral instantly upon passage of those laws! Brilliant. Just a stunning piece of analysis – I don’t know how I could have been so blind. You understood my simplistic and misguided point so clearly and cut thru to the true heart of the matter, then corrected me with examples that clearly show that when a law is passed, everyone becomes moral, and acts 100% in accordance with this morality. Yes. Obeying the law is the moral thing and everyone always does it, all the time. You are a genius.
Oh, you left DUI off the list. I presume that is still considered moral wherever you live, or perhaps it was just never a problem there. Please let me know how your people wrote their law with the morality intact, because where I live, even though the law is clearly in place, people are still getting busted for doing this, and occasionally an innocent person gets killed. Please let me know what is wrong with our law so we can get the morality back into it, and thereby eradicate this horrible activity.
Can anyone speak in a measured manner to this: The laws I’ve seen most in favor right now want to use a very broad stroke in painting all abortion with the same brush. What do you say in cased where there is rape involved? What about if the fetus has serious developmental issues? What if the life and/or health of the mother is in jeopardy? and lastly, what if the mother is a minor (i.e. statutory rape is involved, but the father may not be ‘known’)?
Please see my quote about that here: http://www.jillstanek.com/2012/08/no-exceptions-on-abortion-because-children-are-not-a-punishment/comment-page-2/#comments
The reason the stroke is broad is our reason for being Pro-Life in the first place. There is no difference in the humanity of the child conceived by rape and the child conceived through failed contraception. Same goes for children with genetic problems.
Now, if the mother’s health in in jeopardy, everything should be done to try and save both lives, but I doubt you’ll find a single person here who would say that treatment should be denied the mother that might possibly harm or kill her child. Saving one life is better than saving no lives, and the child needs their mother in order to survive, anyway.
As far as the mother being a minor, I don’t see why you make that distinction, since those cases can still be covered by any circumstance already mentioned. The age of the mother doesn’t change the humanity of her child, but also younger mothers are more likely to experience life-threatening pregnancy complications.
Jesse,
I am now comfortable (not wealthy, by any means, but comfortable). This is a new place for me, however.
When I was pregnant, my husband and I were unemployed, looking for jobs, and our families and friends were primarily outside of our region (my family was across the country, his separated by an ocean). We had *somewhat* of a support system but we were not relying upon them yet; rather, we were getting by with unemployment and eventually, a newspaper delivery route (which is not something I would recommend to anyone). We have only in the last year been out of the poverty bracket and it is a shock to our little family, actually.
I am exactly the sort of young woman who would be likely to have called her pregnancy a “crisis”. I relied upon the support of my local PRC and medicaid. Prior to this year, I never knew what it was like to have a savings account with more than $100 in it (and that only when I was feeling wealthy).
I got pregnant three times while living below the poverty line. The first time, I lost the baby. The second and third times resulted in the most wonderful children I have known in my life. I can personally attest to the difficulty and trial of babies in a poor circumstance. That doesn’t mean killing the babies is a good solution.
Here’s a question for you: If I get pregnant and give birth prematurely to a baby at 30 weeks of development, is it or is it not acceptable for me to kill that child 5 weeks later? Is it *always* upon leaving the womb that the child develops rights? Why or why not?
Oh, you left DUI off the list. I presume that is still considered moral wherever you live, or perhaps it was just never a problem there. Please let me know how your people wrote their law with the morality intact, because where I live, even though the law is clearly in place, people are still gettingbusted for doing this, and occasionally an innocent person gets killed. Please let me know what is wrong with our law so we can get the morality back into it, and thereby eradicate this horrible activity.
Jesse,
Should we legalize driving drunk?
there is no difference in the humanity of the child conceived by rape and the child conceived through failed contraception.
Yeah, I get that. I hear that that protection of potential humans is of primary importance to you. The scenario of contraception through rape seems particularly onerous to me. Not only did the woman have no choice any choice in who would impregnate her, nor the circumstances of that impregnantation, but then she should have no choice in what to do with the progeny of such a hateful attack. This sounds like women are little more than baby machines. They have some choices to make, until they are pregnant. Then, their individual life is over and then entire focus of their life should be to bring this new life into the world, regardless of all other circumstances.
I understand this mindset coming from religious people, but from anyone else it is utterly baffling. Biology is destiny. Well, as a man, what is my destiny? Warmaking? Sport? Spreading my seed as widely as possible? What biological function are men reduced to?
Once again, I, nor anyone that I know of, ever said “killing babies is a good solution”. If it comforts you to see your opposition in the most simplistic terms, fine. Cartoons and caricatures are easier to fight than human beings – I get that. Good luck in the cartoon fight.
The central problem with the legalization issue, for me, is that it is being used A) with such a broad stroke, with out any nuances or consideration for individual circumstances. I have never encountered anything in life that was ‘one size fits all’. and b) This issue is being used to inflate the ranks of politicians who have sweeping social agendas that in my opinion are nothing less that rotten and taken as a whole will insure that more, not less, abortions will be the end result. These people always balance budgets at the expense of education and healthcare first. They are ‘crime and punishment’ types who callously use the high emotions surrounding the abortion issue to get votes. The pro-life blanket and un-nuanced support for these people is dangerous and will only result in more mangled women and fetuses, not less.
And this is the crux. If your true intention is to lower the number of abortions that take place in the world, your tactics in focusing on legalization seem wrong. I don’t see any possible way that making this practice illegal will lower the abortion rates. Are you all really no naive? Do you have any experience with and understanding of human beings?
Anyway, Mary caught me. My only point in all these arguments is that drinking while driving should be legal. Mandatory.
jesse says: If your true intention is to lower the number of abortions that take place in the world, your tactics in focusing on legalization seem wrong. I don’t see any possible way that making this practice illegal will lower the abortion rates. Are you all really no naive? Do you have any experience with and understanding of human beings?
I don’t know any pro-lifers who only focus on the legalization aspect. I guess there might be some, but all the pro-lifers I know also focus on other areas (helping women in crisis pregnancies, education, etc).
Some studies have shown that restrictive laws reduce abortions, other studies have shown that it doesn’t. So let’s say we agree that making abortion illegal will not stop abortion. Why should that compel us to keep it legal? Why should we, as a supposedly civilized society, accept the unjust killing of innocent human beings? Believe me, we pro-lifers are well aware that laws against murder, child abuse, rape, stealing, drunk driving, and on and on, have not stopped these crimes from occurring. But at least when they do occur, justice can be served. There is no justice for the unborn with legal abortion.
And once again, the facade of an earnest search for understanding gives way to reveal the spiteful visage of an ideologue unable to accept that we do not fit into the conjured stereotype of his Pro-Life bogeymen he imagined us to be. Sigh. This gets old after awhile. I swear I’m stuck in a Groundhog Day of The Exorcist.
Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more;
I hear that that protection of potential humans is of primary importance to you.
Not really. “Potential humans” would be ova and sperm. I don’t have any particular fondness for them. Nobody I know does, either. However, once the two have been successfully combined-typically through intercourse-a new human’s life has begun, no “potential” about it.
The scenario of contraception through rape seems particularly onerous to me.
Well, apparently your hand has been tipped, and you wouldn’t fall into the Pro-Life category, anyway. Dead is dead, regardless of how you feel about it, and the varying degrees of your comfort with any given instance of abortion is moot, wouldn’t you say?
Not only did the woman have no choice any choice in who would impregnate her, nor the circumstances of that impregnantation, but then she should have no choice in what to do with the progeny of such a hateful attack.
That’s not true. She has the option of parenting the child or giving the child up for adoption to (a) willing parent(s). Although, I do notice that you seem to by trying to identify the child conceived in such an attack with the malice exhibited by his or her father, when they are merely additional victims of the men, themselves. Why do you think that is?
This sounds like women are little more than baby machines.
As a mother, I find that comment offensive. I am not a “baby machine”, I am a woman who has conceived children in my lifetime. Dehumanizing children AND their mothers. What a twist!
They have some choices to make, until they are pregnant. Then, their individual life is over and then entire focus of their life should be to bring this new life into the world, regardless of all other circumstances.
Wow. You really have no clue about pregnancy/childbirth/child-rearing/etc., do you. Getting pregnant does not end your life. Birthing a child does not end your life. You do not lose the ability to make choices simply because you are a mother, or a pregnant mother. My brain did not liquefy and drip out of my ears the day my first child nestled into my uterine lining. A focus of your life becomes caring for your child, even if you’re planning on your child being adopted out, but that doesn’t need to be the exclusive raison d’être for you. Although, I will say “all other circumstances”, with the exception of a mother’s life threatened by a pregnancy, are meaningless when attempting to legitimize the willful taking of a child’s life. I say such a feat cannot be done.
I understand this mindset coming from religious people, but from anyone else it is utterly baffling.
I don’t understand it coming from religious people, personally. If you believe there is a heaven where the innocent go when they die, or they’ll “brb, reincarnation, lol!”, it seems that would be fine for these children. However, as someone who has no religion, my view is this is the only life we will ever have, and taking that away from another human being is the worst thing you can ever do to them. Taking away the chance to experience beauty, music, joy, sorrow, or anything else for that matter, is wrong.
Biology is destiny. Well, as a man, what is my destiny? Warmaking? Sport? Spreading my seed as widely as possible? What biological function are men reduced to?
Biology isn’t destiny. However, it does have a tendency to impact the world around us and how we react to it. I can’t breathe water-mean ol’ Biology won’t allow it. Therefore, I just have to deal. I’m not “reduced to” nothing but a pathetic air breather-that’s just something I do while I live. Being a mother, being a father, being a bipedal mammal isn’t all we are, they’re just things we do because it’s our reality.
Once again, I, nor anyone that I know of, ever said “killing babies is a good solution”. If it comforts you to see your opposition in the most simplistic terms, fine. Cartoons and caricatures are easier to fight than human beings – I get that. Good luck in the cartoon fight.
You’re projecting, Mr. “You reduce women to baby machines!!!”
The central problem with the legalization issue, for me, is that it is being used A) with such a broad stroke, with out any nuances or consideration for individual circumstances.
As I’ve explained before, that is because the point of the Pro-Life Movement is to protect human lives, and people don’t become less human or less alive based on various circumstances.
b) This issue is being used to inflate the ranks of politicians who have sweeping social agendas that in my opinion are nothing less that rotten and taken as a whole will insure that more, not less, abortions will be the end result. These people always balance budgets at the expense of education and healthcare first. They are ‘crime and punishment’ types who callously use the high emotions surrounding the abortion issue to get votes. The pro-life blanket and un-nuanced support for these people is dangerous and will only result in more mangled women and fetuses, not less.
Well, I’m under the impression that making abortion illegal WILL decrease the abortion rate. If you can cite sources to contradict that, be my guest. Balanced budgets are required for the nation to continue to exist. I think we’d have a lot more to worry about than abortion if the nation collapsed.
And this is the crux. If your true intention is to lower the number of abortions that take place in the world, your tactics in focusing on legalization seem wrong. I don’t see any possible way that making this practice illegal will lower the abortion rates. Are you all really no naive? Do you have any experience with and understanding of human beings?
We’ve already been over my experience being a human being. You’ve not really made any sort of remark about my experience, either. What’s up with that?
I find your choice admirable in every way. I find it extra awesome in that you had a choice, and you chose to become a mother. That is, by my estimation, the best way to bring children into the world. I bet your kids are better for it.
I really really want to address the statement “my view is this is the only life we will ever have“, both because there is no evidence to support this and many traditions that hold a contrary view in this regard, but that would be veering too far into the weeds. I do see now tho why you hold the position you do.
And Lrning is right – I’m sure you all do work other avenues to get rid of abortion. As I said, I’m with you on the sanctity of life, tho i tend to focus on quality of life. A life coerced is not a life truly lived. Without the ability to make choices, we are machines.
I tend to focus on saving the lives that have already landed by working to end war, inequality and non-access to education. I notice that budgets are never balanced by ending a war or two. You do all realize that many innocents are killed by these adventures. I’d love to see proud pro-lifers in great numbers at the anti war rallies. It would certainly make it easier to take the pro-life premise of ‘every life is sacred’ more seriously.
But it’s always the most war-mongering politicians who are running the pro-life line. That’s where my real beef lies – not with you. People with larger agendas are moving into legislative positions where they can deploy their larger agendas and social engineering. And I see these people as deeply anti-freedom, anti-liberty and anti-democracy. The issue is not just the issue.
I find your choice admirable in every way. I find it extra awesome in that you had a choice, and you chose to become a mother. That is, by my estimation, the best way to bring children into the world. I bet your kids are better for it.
See, but, that’s the thing. I don’t think it’s admirable. I don’t think it’s anything out of the ordinary, or should be seen as me having gone “above-and-beyond”. It’s basic human decency. It’s what should be a legal obligation of a parent to a child, regardless of what I wanted at the time. Trust me, if I could have snapped my fingers and postponed having my child until a better time, until after I had finished my degree, until after I learned what a psycho her dad was, until I was better off financially, had my own place to live, etc. But, she was already alive, and anything other than finishing her gestation and giving birth to her would’ve been homicide, and shouldn’t have been legal, regardless of my circumstances.
Are you saying that because it wasn’t my choice, my kids are damaged? Are you saying that because things turned out the way they did, my children would be better off dead right now? If you are, I’d take extreme issue with that statement.
Wait! No, I thought it WAS your choice. I’m not saying any of that!
xalise – Ok, I just read your earlier post and I don’t know what you’re talking about. Maybe you’re just in the mood to get pissed or whatever, but i did not say or imply any of the last things you wrote. Those feelings are all you, sista. Peace.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-slansky-/paul-ryan-said-something-_b_1832377.html?utm_hp_ref=tw
this guy is not helping your cause.
It’s MaryRose.
Jesse,
Xalisae is referring to this statement, “As I said, I’m with you on the sanctity of life, tho i tend to focus on quality of life. A life coerced is not a life truly lived. Without the ability to make choices, we are machines. ”
BTW, the whole ‘women who have to have babies are mindless machines with poor quality of life’ schtick is really old.
X,
I think Jesse is referring to your personal quality of life if you are not given the legal avenue of abortion. You are a machine if you have to have babies. Same “pregnancy makes you a drone” argument. Tired and old and already shot down.
And re: Paul Ryan’s statement,
Rape resulting in pregnancy=rape wherein a child is conceived.
“Method of conception”=manner in which a child is conceived.
Any assumed insensitivity is just smoke. Ryan was using facts, not indicating in any way that rape was a good behavior. Actually, the comment was about how even when the conception occurred under horrible circumstances, the humanity of the individual conceived should be protected.
fair enough.
Nobody here has addressed my central premise of war. at what age, or shade, or religion, is it finally ok to murder someone?
Nobody here has addressed my central premise of war. at what age, or shade, or religion, is it finally ok to murder someone?
Never. We’ve addressed it plenty by simply explaining to you our Pro-Life position. So, when it’s not murder. When you’re facing an opponent who means to harm you (or an enemy combatant, although there are some other Pro-Lifers who do not support the latter at all).
Wait! No, I thought it WAS your choice. I’m not saying any of that!
Well, it wasn’t. I didn’t choose to get pregnant with my first child, nor did I choose what happened after that. I did what was demanded of me by decency, and I’m glad I did, to the point that I think no other child should have to die by their mother’s choice. So, you DID say that-you said it by implication-and if you are uncomfortable with that, perhaps you might ought to revise your position.
Ok, I just read your earlier post and I don’t know what you’re talking about. Maybe you’re just in the mood to get pissed or whatever, but i did not say or imply any of the last things you wrote. Those feelings are all you, sista. Peace.
Yes, yes. Wash your hands. But what was said was said, and if you need it explained, I can. Words have meaning, you see. “ I find it extra awesome in that you had a choice, and you chose to become a mother.” I didn’t choose to become a mother. I already was a mother when my first child was conceived, just like every woman who has ever been pregnant. It’s just that some women choose to kill their children, and that is not an option I ever would’ve exercised, nor do I think it should be a legal avenue for anyone to take. The only thing the legal “choice” to kill my child in an abortion did was give my ex permission to make my life a living hell in an attempt to get me to kill our daughter. How liberating…Girl power and stuff, amirite?
Now, operating under the corrected premise that I didn’t choose to become a mother, but ended up becoming one anyway because that’s just the way things went, we move on to your next statement, “That is, by my estimation, the best way to bring children into the world. I bet your kids are better for it.” Since my children were not brought into the world that way-well, not my first child, anyway-the implication there is that my first child was brought into the world in a sub-par manner, and must be damaged in some way since she suffered her parents’ lack of readiness for her. There is a whole lot to that statement you apparently are reluctant to own. Too bad. It’s still there. It also implies that since I was ready for my son and chose to get pregnant with him, he is “better for it”, so please explain to me, how exactly is he better? Better than my first child who was not chosen? Elucidate, please!
demanded of me by decency
Now yr splitting hairs. You chose to do the decent thing and have your kid. Choice is not a dirty word.
And if you didn’t choose it of your own volition, then say “I’m glad I was forced to have my kid.” I don’t know you and so cannot superimpose your vocal inflections or infer anything other than what you write, and you are not writing clearly.
And I’m not washing my hands of anything. I’ve tried to be very moderate in this as I truly just want to understand your positions on all of this. This does not mean I am looking to be converted or have you agree with me, I just have very little access to this discourse in my regular life. People just don’t have this conversation with those who are on the other side because it so often gets heated, and who wants to ruin the family BBQ that way? Nobody.
I apologize for any of my words that caused offense, and I assure you none was intended. If I am just inherently offensive, well that is another matter (and altogether possible), but again, not my intent in any of this.
I already was a mother when my first child was conceived,
Do you mean “I became a mother at the moment of conception.”? If that’s what you mean, ok. If not, i don’t understand how you could already be a mother before you had your first child. Unless you are getting all mystical, in which case – ok.
The only thing the legal “choice” to kill my child in an abortion did was give my ex permission to make my life a living hell in an attempt to get me to kill our daughter.
Actually, it probably kept him from beating you and going at you with a hanger, or dragging you to someone who would.
because that’s just the way things went
You really cannot admit you made the CHOICE that your life went the way it did. The option to abort was always there, and you CHOSE something else. I stand by my earlier statement that this is the best way to bring a kid into the world – through a deliberate choice.
Unless you are saying that your ex was emotionally blackmailing you so that you wouldn’t abort. I’m really confused by your writing.
Anyway, by what i can gather, your POS ex wanted you to abort and you chose not to. This illustrates my point that children who are CHOSEN, not matter how shitty the circumstances, have a way better landing than those who are not. Your act of defiance to your partner and will to bring your baby up regardless of your external circumstances is awesome.
Other people are not so strong, or fit or what have you. Why would you deny them the choice that you had open to you?
Before you repeat “it’s a human being…” I get it. We disagree. There is nothing about humans that makes them more or less sacred than any other living thing. There are myriad examples of animal parents aborting or culling their broods for one reason or another. Mothers eat their young all the time. We are part of nature, whether you want to admit it or not.
Trying to legislate human nature, especially something as basic and personal as reproduction, often amounts to little more than social engineering, and I cannot see the abortion issue as anything but a naked power grab. Disassociate it from the rotten politicos you have pushing for it all over this country, and I could at least see you has honest players. But as it stands, you are making strange bedfellows with evil people for political ends. Your passion on this subject makes you easily maneuvered. No other developed nation is having this ‘debate’. Why? Because the populations of those countries, even the ones trending towards xenophobic right-wingers currently, see this as a personal issue that is not within the purview of government.
One last clarification on my saying that pro-lifers see women as baby makin machines. A machine is something that has no choice. It does what it’s maker or owner tells it to. The african slaves who built the wealth of this country were machines – they had no choice in any aspect of their livesl. By making abortion a legal and political issue, we make women’s bodies machines to be fought over, bargained with and used for all sorts of ends that have nothing to do with the person inhabiting each body. Your cause has a unimpeachable grain of truth in it. But what has built up around that grain of truth is not a pearl, and that is what I’m against.
Jesse,
I hate to break it to you, but your parents were “forced” to have you by circumstance and, yes, a sense of decency. Unless “getting” you was practically a science experiment of temperature-taking and calculations, which is only the case in the minority of cases of a couple having fertility difficulties.
And there is nothing “mystical” in xalisae’s feeling she was a mother at the moment of the conception of her children. Haven’t you heard of the word “fathered?”
You do know that refers to the moment of conception, don’t you? Try to not think shallowly, and you will see when we are first “mothered” as well.
My parent were forced by nature to conceive me due to each of them being young and hot. My dad had a good job, and my mom had all the time to stay at home and raise us. No law on earth could have kept them from making a baby at that time.
I just didn’t understand the construction of that sentence.
Now you’re being all cryptic. I have heard of the word “fathered’, yes. If you have a point make a statement. We don’t share a common set of assumptions. You must use your words to elucidate your ideas. If you are careless with your words, communication will not happen.
Unfortunately, I’ve forgotten much of my high school French. So if English isn’t sufficient, I’m afraid we’ll just have to move on.
WHAT DOES ‘FAAAATHERED’ HAVE TO DO WITH XALISE BECOMING A MOTHER???
God I hope you have not fathered anyone. And if so i hope their mother had the good sense to get them away from your annoying presence.
LOL. And also shaking my head sadly. SMHS.
Now yr splitting hairs. You chose to do the decent thing and have your kid. Choice is not a dirty word.
I am not splitting hairs. There is a big difference between making a choice consciously to do a thing or not to do a thing and refusing to make a choice thereby letting something else happen on its own. Although, I have to admit I am not fond of the word “choice” when it is being used as a euphemism for killing a child.
And if you didn’t choose it of your own volition, then say “I’m glad I was forced to have my kid.” I don’t know you and so cannot superimpose your vocal inflections or infer anything other than what you write, and you are not writing clearly.
I wasn’t forced to have my child. I participated in an action which caused her existence and after that, she kinda took over and did the rest herself. I haven’t had many problems with people understanding my writing. I tend to be rather cut-and-dry, rarely if ever venturing into subjects like the metaphysical, mostly because I think it’s a load of bunk. I really do try to stick to the rational and tangible, so I don’t understand why you think something incidental like inflection would have a great deal of impact on the meat of what I am saying.
And I’m not washing my hands of anything. I’ve tried to be very moderate in this as I truly just want to understand your positions on all of this.
I couldn’t tell. It seems to me as though you’re doing a bit of intentional obfuscation here and there, and acting as though I’m being evasive or confusing when I really am not. Those are not the actions of someone seeking understanding.
This does not mean I am looking to be converted or have you agree with me,
Then you utterly miss the entire point of debate. You claim to be seeking greater understanding, but if that were true, you’d be searching for your opponent’s comprehension of any points you’re trying to make, and you’d also be willing to adjust your own position should the need arise as a consequence of your newly-gained understanding. Honestly…who seeks out understanding without the willingness to adjust a flawed opinion once that understanding is gained? If I lack an understanding of how money is minted, currently believing it is drawn on regular sheets of paper by beings called “Money Elves”, so I take a tour of a federal mint in order to gain a better understanding of the process, I don’t view the actual process and then walk home still believing in “Money Elves”. Please don’t profess to desire knowledge and then contradict yourself by openly embracing persisted ignorance.
I just have very little access to this discourse in my regular life. People just don’t have this conversation with those who are on the other side because it so often gets heated, and who wants to ruin the family BBQ that way? Nobody.
At least you’re willing to admit you’ve not given the issue much thought at all, and you’ve never been forced to do so. I think this reinforces my point that I am not being unclear, but you just have a resistance to gaining any sort of clearer understanding. I’ve been openly and publicly debating this issue now for 5+ years. I have at least one friend/family member I know of who has cut me out of his life because of that. But I’d still rather “ruin the family BBQ” than sit quietly by as my family members and friends rally around the taking of innocent human lives. I’m afraid this issue is just a little more dire than being a drag at a family barbeque.
I apologize for any of my words that caused offense, and I assure you none was intended. If I am just inherently offensive, well that is another matter (and altogether possible), but again, not my intent in any of this.
Well, when you’re talking about an actual human life who would’ve been killed had certain family members or co-workers had their druthers in regards to my life’s path, and that actual human life happens to be one of my children, it’s going to be offensive. There’s just no getting around it.
Do you mean “I became a mother at the moment of conception.”? If that’s what you mean, ok. If not, i don’t understand how you could already be a mother before you had your first child. Unless you are getting all mystical, in which case – ok.
Yes. I mean that I became a mother the instant the life of my first child had begun. That is a non-negotiable point, from a biological standing. Once again, I don’t do “mystical”.
Actually, it probably kept him from beating you and going at you with a hanger, or dragging you to someone who would.
Oh, certainly! Because, it’s not as though the leading cause of death these days for pregnant women is MURDER, right?! THANKS, ABORTION!
You really cannot admit you made the CHOICE that your life went the way it did. The option to abort was always there, and you CHOSE something else. I stand by my earlier statement that this is the best way to bring a kid into the world – through a deliberate choice.
You really cannot fathom someone doing something that contradicts what they would otherwise choose, can’t you. The option to abort is something beyond consideration, regardless of what I might have wanted at the time. That’s the only way I could ever be Pro-Life. I wouldn’t demand things of others I was not first prepared to endure myself. I always get so sick of people assuming that just because my daughter didn’t die, I must have really super wanted to get knocked up and have a baby right then, deep down and stuff. That is when it becomes painfully obvious to me that even the concept of self-sacrifice for others’ sake is entirely foreign to sociopaths. It’s a frightening prospect.
Unless you are saying that your ex was emotionally blackmailing you so that you wouldn’t abort. I’m really confused by your writing.
I’m sure it is. We’re going over a lot of material that must be new to you. He was threatening to kill himself if I didn’t kill our daughter. I don’t know how much clearer I can state that for you.
Anyway, by what i can gather, your POS ex wanted you to abort and you chose not to. This illustrates my point that children who are CHOSEN, not matter how shitty the circumstances, have a way better landing than those who are not. Your act of defiance to your partner and will to bring your baby up regardless of your external circumstances is awesome.
No. It’s not awesome. It’s basic, and should be required by law. Choosing to have children and planning them before they’re conceived is great. THAT is what I think you mean is optimal. What you’re advocating through abortion though is that children who are not planned should be able to be allowed to be legally chosen to be killed, and that’s the worst and crappiest “landing”, no matter how you slice it.
Other people are not so strong, or fit or what have you. Why would you deny them the choice that you had open to you?
Other people are not so strong that they can deny their basic urge to engage in sexual activity. RAPE IS NOW LEGAL, THANKS JESSE! No, you don’t have to characterize people who follow the law and don’t hurt others for their own sake as “strong” or “fit” just to attempt to make harming others for your sake seem more reasonable. Nice try though.
Before you repeat “it’s a human being…” I get it. We disagree.
There is a difference between disagreeing on a matter of opinion and one party being just flat-out wrong based on facts. Guess which one you are doing! I would deny someone the choice to kill their child in utero for the same reason the law currently denies someone the choice to strangle their infant to death. Same organism. Same life. Just that one is a little older than the other, biologically-speaking, of course.
There is nothing about humans that makes them more or less sacred than any other living thing.
As a human being writing this to you on a laptop over the internet, I disagree! But I might just be biased. I’ve been accused of being “speciest” before. I laughed until I realized they were serious. Then I agreed wholeheartedly that I was, and that everyone should be, since we’re like, the same species, and if I were in need, I’d kinda want them to prioritize my life over Toonces, if it came down to the knitty-gritty, and I’d want them to know that I’d give them the same sort of consideration.
There are myriad examples of animal parents aborting or culling their broods for one reason or another. Mothers eat their young all the time. We are part of nature, whether you want to admit it or not.
Okay. Well, the day the cat police come to arrest my Tom for cat rape and take him to cat prison, I’ll maybe consider that you might have a point. Until then, you’re just trying to legitimize the bad behavior of a species who knows better because everyone else is doin’ it, man! We are supposed to hold ourselves to a higher standard because we can, because we know that a higher standard exists. If you really felt the way you do, you should have no problems with a human being flaying a house cat alive, because stuff like that happens in nature all the time. Right?
Trying to legislate human nature, especially something as basic and personal as reproduction, often amounts to little more than social engineering, and I cannot see the abortion issue as anything but a naked power grab.
You should go speak at a rapist’s rights gathering. They’re trying to legislate your reproduction, man!
Disassociate it from the rotten politicos you have pushing for it all over this country, and I could at least see you has honest players.
Even a blind squirrel can find a nut from time to time. I’d still be willing to support the Pro-Life movement if David Duke resurrected Hitler tomorrow and they had a press conference to come out in favor of the Pro-Life position, I’d be right there cheering. I’d still think they were overall the absolute worst, but I don’t care who does it, because it’s the right thing to do.
But as it stands, you are making strange bedfellows with evil people for political ends. Your passion on this subject makes you easily maneuvered.
Do you mean “manipulated”? Whatever. I already answered this point above.
No other developed nation is having this ‘debate’. Why? Because the populations of those countries, even the ones trending towards xenophobic right-wingers currently, see this as a personal issue that is not within the purview of government.
No, they’re not having this debate because it’s financially expedient for them right now. Because they enact socialistic policies that happen to be really expensive, they’re looking at every aborted child as one less mouth to feed. That’s not about personal rights or privacy, but about financial opportunism lacking character and being willing to violate basic human rights to keep their house of cards from tumbling. As certain demographics abroad start to decline, the issue will get picked back up, I assure you. There are actually far more restrictions on abortion currently in place around the globe than you seem to realize, and that is for good reason.
One last clarification on my saying that pro-lifers see women as baby makin machines. A machine is something that has no choice. It does what it’s maker or owner tells it to. The african slaves who built the wealth of this country were machines – they had no choice in any aspect of their livesl. By making abortion a legal and political issue, we make women’s bodies machines to be fought over, bargained with and used for all sorts of ends that have nothing to do with the person inhabiting each body.
Actually, A machine is a tool consisting of one or more parts that is constructed to achieve a particular goal. Unless you’re saying that Pro-Lifers go around starting families with the explicit goal in mind of conceiving and birthing girls for the only reason that they will be forcefully inseminated later and produce as many young as possible, you’re absolutely wrong. Also, once again, as I am a woman and you are a man, I find your statement offensive. Just because I fight for the rights of children to live in utero, doesn’t mean I devalue myself and other women to the point I would view us as biological machines. I’d like to think that my arguments to you prove themselves that I value myself as so much more than just a biological baby-making machine.
Your cause has a unimpeachable grain of truth in it. But what has built up around that grain of truth is not a pearl, and that is what I’m against.
This makes no sense. Please elaborate.
Mods, I have a link-rich post stuck in moderation. I would greatly appreciate it being published for me. :)
thanks! :D
Jesse,
Yes indeed, our cause does have an unimpeachable grain of truth in it. And as in an oyster, it’s clearly irritating you and will, I hope, become a pearl of wisdom. Just don’t cast it before swine. Hold on to it and regard it carefully. You’ll be all the richer for it.
I’d still be willing to support the Pro-Life movement if David Duke resurrected Hitler tomorrow and they had a press conference to come out in favor of the Pro-Life position, I’d be right there cheering.
That right there.
you realize it is impossible to believe you hold anything like a ‘pro life’ position after a statement like that.
Well, thanks for confirming the social engineering suspicions I have towards your movement. I wish you all the failure in the world with regards to it.
okay. So, the actual positions aren’t important, and it’s the fashion statement social club aspect that is the most important factor for you. Gotcha. Didn’t you mention earlier that you’ve not really given this issue any actual thought? What you just said would corroborate that statement.
My head is wrapped in duct tape right now. We’re trying to use social engineering? The first line abortion-yayers (or is that “yay-hoos”) give us is that the saved child will just have a tough life in poverty anyway.
Trying to engineer society into accepting more poor and minority people doesn’t sound too sinister to me. It’s your side which is trying to eliminate them while keeping their parents in their place.
Let me guess. You’re a Democrat, aren’t you?
fashion statement social club aspect
once again, you lost me.
What came thru loud and clear, however is that you would support Hitler and David Duke if they would make abortion illegal. If this seems reasonable to, and i have to say, if that is your position, we have nothing more to discuss. You are intellectually corrupt, and politically - i don’t even know what.
Hans, do you agree with that statement? You know, i don’t care. This has descended into nothingness.
No, I said that I would support anyone with the position of being Pro-Life ON THAT TOPIC, regardless of who those people might be. If they were like, “We’ll make all abortion illegal, but we still think Jews should be dead.”, I wouldn’t be down for that. You’re reading what you want to read into something. I’m trying to get you to actually think about the act of abortion, what it is, what it does, and why it should be illegal, and why your hang-ups with “Eeew, but icky politicians like Pro-Life stuff!” are misguided, at best.
I don’t think you understood this whole thing from the outset though. You were probably better off just not thinking about it, and I refuse to pay for any melted bits caused by provoking thought in you.
Jesster,
Of course I agree with her statement. If the Devil says, “Don’t kill innocent children.” I’ll stand up and say, “Right on!”
if for no other reason than to have avoided the utter insipidness this conversation has sunk to, I now wish my mother had aborted me.
Believe it or not, that does not make two of us.
if for no other reason than to have avoided the utter insipidness this conversation has sunk to, I now wish my mother had aborted me.
You must have a very hollow existence. I hope you find something one day which would make you want to live despite “the utter insipidness this conversation has sunk to”. Find some beautiful music. Watch a sunset. Play with a kitten or a baby or something. It’ll probably help you understand our point more than anything else we’ve said thus far.