Pro-life vid of the day: Prostitutes sing Obamacare’s praises
by LauraLoo
According to a report in USA Today, legal prostitutes who have a difficult time finding health coverage will have options starting in January to which they would otherwise never have had access. The legal prostitutes at the Moonlight Bunny Ranch in Nevada attest to this fact and agree that Obamacare is their medical insurance miracle!
Warning: May be too risqué for some viewers.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-FlmFCSqMk[/youtube]
Email dailyvid@jillstanek.com with your video suggestions.
Dec.11, 2013 12:00 pm |
Video of the day |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
If you like your birth control, you can keep your birth control.
If you like your Flagyl, you can keep…..
Legal prostitutes is a contradiction in terms, just the same as legal gambling methinks (isn’t America great!). But anyway, do these legal prostitues even need OCare? Is “business” that slow. I don’t have personal experience but something tells me, these women clear a pretty good dollar at the end of the day (or night)..
It’s not about the money, it’s about finding someone willing to cover them, which was difficult.
So what you are saying Jack is that it should not be hard to find medical coverage for prostitution? Wonderful, that solves it then Jack! So wonderful for the ACA to offer “reasonable” premiums for “legal” prostitutes who have no consideration for the healthcare costs on anyone beyond getting their monthly checkups to see if they can go at it again.
I think that this case represents how ACA is a screwed-up program and dishonest in that no one will “reasonably” cover “legal” prostitutes. So one can engage in very risky behavior 7 times a day and three times at night (that is intimate contact with 10 people) and still be covered by ACA. Will see how long this program stays financially solvent. And will also see how many in the exchanges will be willing to carry these “legal” prostitutes.
What a joke on all of us this is.
I was just answering your question. The ladies were saying that they find it much more difficult to get covered, it wasn’t about affording it.
I would much rather they quit the business, but people need medical care even if they are currently making poor decisions. Prostitutes, drug addicts, strippers, everyone else that people don’t like or care about, are still humans and still have human needs.
“Hookers for Obama” – that pretty much summed it up for me :)
These “legal” prostitutes should be paying out-of-pocket for their medical care and not rely on a government program that can find them a provider willing to take such a risk. If they pay out of pocket their “human needs” will still be met right?
I draw the line at prostitution Jack, “legal” or not. Being an alcoholic or a drug addict becomes an issue of physiology but “legal” prostitution is a choice that these women make daily. They can afford out-of-pocket.
ACA new slogan – become a legal prostitute and you’re covered with us.
I couldn’t put it any better Vita. I see the split here: those for covering “legal” prostitutes and those against. I bet ACA will win :(
“For the working girls, it’s wonderful because now they can get the insurance as the independent contractors that they are, some with pre-existing conditions.”
I’ll bet nearly all of his girls have pre-existing conditions.
Legalizing the behavior does not change the health risks.
Have you ever spent much time talking to either former or current sex workers Thomas? I don’t know much about the “legal” industry, but sex workers in general tend to have high rates of addiction, very high rates of childhood sexual abuse, and other psychiatric issues. And I don’t know about the “bunny” ranches, but street prostitutes do not make very much money, at all, and what they do make goes right into their nose or veins. It’s a much more complicated issue than “well they are making poor choices so they can just suffer if they get sick”. If one of them ends up with cancer or gets in an accident, or attacked by a “client”, or whatever, the thousands of dollars in medical bills are going to get eaten by the insured and by tax-payers, just like most other uninsured persons.
There are other industries that have a lot of danger tied to them where people have no difficulty getting health insurance. I’m not saying that legal prostitution is okay or moral, but I do think that they are still humans.
I don’t know what the answer is, but I do know alienating those who work in the sex industry isn’t fixing it. Still people, and very vulnerable people like that. And some of the kindest people I ever met as a homeless kid were prostitutes, so there’s that.
I just love the twist: sex workers, independent contractors, what else will they be called?
But here’s my concern – I contend that “affordable” care cannot be an expectation for someone who engages in such high health-risk behaviors. What’s wrong with liberals, truly? No matter what you do, we will take care of you on someone else’s dime? Is that it. Premiums cannot be a shared responsibility (dumped on the collective) in such a case (in other words you want HIV treatments on the cheap or the best, choose because ACA will find one for you that may not be in your best interest if you go with the “affordable” schtick). ACA is nothing more but a tool that promotes irresponsibility…
And I also view them as human Jack. But I have a tendency not to patronize anyone just because. Everyone of us is responsible for ourselves at some point in our lives. No abused child is predestined to become an illegal prostitute (or “legal”). It is a choice that one makes… What keeps these women doing what they do, in the present?
“But here’s my concern – I contend that “affordable” care cannot be an expectation for someone who engages in such high health-risk behaviors. ”
Well what about obese people? Smokers? Obese people and smokers cost much more money per year than prostitutes, it’s not even close. Billions of dollars of difference there. There are a lot of risky behaviors, and if people get sick or hurt they cost a lot of money. I don’t understand what you think should happen to those who engage in dangerous behaviors and get hurt or sick, maybe as a result of it, maybe not. What do you think will happen when they can’t pay their bills? Isn’t it better they have an insurance plan they can pay into before they need it to offset costs, rather than having all the rest of us pay it when they can’t pay the thousands of dollars for a medical treatment that might not even be related to their choice of “work”.
“No abused child is predestined to become an illegal prostitute (or “legal”). It is a choice that one makes… What keeps these women doing what they do, in the present?”
Well, in my city the average age of a prostitute is fourteen. Yup. I don’t know how many choices you think street kids have, but there isn’t much. Many people in the sex industry started out young, and grew up in it. I hate admitting it but I did a few things I wasn’t proud of as a kid when I was on the street as well, besides the stuff I readily admit to like drug dealing and thievery. Desperate people do desperate things. And there’s a real connection with drug addiction, and don’t forget the pimps preying on people. And once you are in, it’s mighty hard to get out especially with a monkey on your back.
And the problem with the legal prostitutes is because they made their mark,as it were, getting hired for legit industries after that is very difficult. Companies don’t like to sully their image with employing someone who worked as a prostitute, or stripper, or whatever. If it’s difficult to find a job with minor drug charges from when you were 18, I imagine it’s much more difficult to find a job when you were publicly a legal prostitute for however long.
Maybe any man or woman who gets the “services” of a prostitute, legally or otherwise, should be banned from health insurance for life. If they did it once they probably do it often. Or maybe they should be required to pay into a special fund to provide medical care for prostitutes, they can take it out of their checks like child support.
Prostitution wouldn’t exist without demand, but it’s only the prostitutes that get judged and treated poorly for it.
Like I said Jack, my comment applies across the board “..I contend that “affordable” care cannot be an expectation for someone who engages in such high health-risk behaviors. ”
If I had a preexisting condition or engaged in high-risk behaviors I would not expect my care to be affordable. Too bad some have that mentality. America’s in trouble Jack…
I agree that perhaps the “customers” should be paying for some of that healthcare too. What I do not agree with is there is this expectation of “affordable” care when its not getting any cheaper for the providers to secure the best personnel and equipment. Are people disagreeing with me that this notion of “affordable” will become the elephant in the room that will collapse.
Why is it that some expect the best but when it comes to paying for it, want the “most affordable.” Last I heard an average MD has about a 100 grand in loans and a lousy X-Ray Machine costs into the hundreds. But go ahead and expect healthcare on the cheap. Good luck.
“I contend that “affordable” care cannot be an expectation for someone who engages in such high health-risk behaviors. ” ”
So what’s your solution then? Either they can access care, and we find a way that they can do it without bankrupting the country, or they get ill or die without it. I don’t know your definition of “affordable”, either.
“Why is it that some expect the best but when it comes to paying for it, want the “most affordable.” ”
Well it’s called capitalism, everyone is looking for a deal. I just don’t see any solutions coming from the people who complain about others in “high risk” situations needing healthcare. You either let them die, you give them care without health insurance that they can’t pay and everyone else ends up eating the cost, or you find a way to insure them and offset the costs in the first place. Is there another solution?
I have writtem my solution many times above Jack:
PAY OUT-OF-POCKET
And as far as capitalism, I am not truly certain most people want the best deal on having a life-saving procedure (they just want their life saved), but readers can correct me if I am wrong on this one.
“Pay out of pocket” isn’t a solution when health care costs are what they are. Maybe some of the “high class” escorts and prostitutes can afford needed procedures, but the vast majority of prostitutes and others who work in the sex industries don’t make that kind of money, not even close. What do you do when one of them gets cancer? I don’t think a single prostitute in the US could afford a long cancer treatment out of pocket. We end up eating those costs, insured people and tax payers. Just like we do for other uninsured people.
It is a solution specific to the “legal” prostitutes dilemma. And I was not even referring to cancer treatments for them, just all that stuff relevant to selling themselves for profit.
I do not view healthcare as an entitlement and it is unreasonable from my perspective to expect good quality healthcare to be affordable. You get what you pay for, isn’t that what people need to think about? That is the gist of my messages here. ACA is full of lies by purporting that any reputable provider can provide good quality healthcare on the cheap. HMOs are being dropped everywhere because they reimburse providers a fraction of the cost of their services. ACA is taking that route. Like I said, this “affordable” claim of ACA will take America for a spin…
“someone who engages in such high health-risk behaviors. What’s wrong with liberals, truly? No matter what you do, we will take care of you on someone else’s dime?”
I just don’t get this way of thinking Thomas. Coal mining, being obese, smoking, not exercising are all choices that have higher health care costs associates with them, you think we shoudn’t treat these people. We have two choices and two only in a society when other people get sicjk and they can’t afford treatment we can let them die or we can pay the treatment for them. That’s it. I haven’t seen anyone conservatives or other say we should let sick people die. They are fine with treating people even prostitutes in emergency rooms via tax payer dollars. But having these people actually pay into the system and covering them on the front end is upsetting to you? Do you think that HIV posative hookers should be turned away at the emergency room? I doubt it, so why do you care if they are covered before?
Legal prostitutes is a contradiction in terms, just the same as legal gambling methinks (isn’t America great!).
Uh… Ever been to Mohegan Sun? Not really seeing the comparison.
Thomas R’s thinking encapsulates the pro-life position perfectly: people having the wrong kind of sex should be punished for it.
As another pro-life person argues with him? O_o
You’re mostly an anomaly.
There are other leftist or non-religious pro-lifers, they just tend to be more quiet and not have thick enough skin to be upfront about it.
just all that stuff relevant to selling themselves for profit. – which is what most people do. Some their labor, others their talents, some their skills and others their intellect.
It’s almost as if Thomas R. thinks that anyone who isn’t pretty much a clone of Thomas R. doesn’t really deserve anything and should be happy with scraps, dregs and second best. It all sounds a bit Stepford to me. Not much choice there.
Selling themselves for a profit? Hmm, its not as simple as that. While there are many men and women who become sex workers willingly, others do not. I don’t think the fourteen year olds Jack mentioned dreamed of being prostitutes when they were little. I don’t think being a sex worker is a great way to make a living, but as Jack said, they are people too and should have access to affordable care. What if a sex worker has an STI and can’t afford to pay out of pocket to have it treated? Wouldn’t it be better for him or her to have access to health insurance that will pay for treatment, rather than have him or her spread it to others?
Well like I said, even in legal sex industries like porn or stripping, people tend to have much higher rates of addiction, childhood sex abuse, depression, etc. I don’t know how freely chosen sex work generally is. But even for those who choose it completely freely, I don’t see how it helps to treat them like second class citizens, who don’t deserve to have access to health insurance like those in other risky jobs that don’t involve sex. And a lot of the strippers I knew (legal profession) didn’t really have any employable skills and had kids to feed… It’s not exactly an easy problem to fix. I don’t see how making sure they can’t get health insurance helps the situation.
And nobody ever mentions all the upstanding family men who buy barely legal (or not) boys or girls off the street for a night, why should the people supplying be punished with lack of healthcare when those who provide the demand have no such problems accessing healthcare?
Thomas how would you make it so that prostitutes aren’t covered for healthcare regarding their work, but are covered for things like cancer (excepting cervical and other cancer that may be influenced by sexual activity, I guess)?
Well said phillymiss!
Indeed Jack, it’s surprising how broad a ‘customer base’ there is.
I rawly have trouble feeling anything but disdain for people who buy sex, I know I should try to be understanding but I just saw too many sexually assaulted and beaten street kids to think anything kind of the men (mostly men, couple women) who trawl for vulnerable people to use.
*really
oh really
well then
;-)
Well Ive lived in sin city so I know its pretty much sex sex sex wherever you go. Anyway it seems to me that these women are in no way shape or form being FORCED into the sex industry. And Im also sure they wouldnt have a problem buying their own birth control. Sigh enough said. If she can afford car insurance on her Lexus..no doubt..she can afford BC. Also I would pretty much think that these women would be smart enough to use condoms.
I would also venture to say they DO use condoms with as many men that they service. Im not just talking unwanted pregnancy here..im talking diseases. Yes condoms break but Ive never had too many problems with them in my lifetime.
Why doesnt old pimp daddy pay for them? They are his willing employees. Trust me these girls arent driving rust bucket cars or wearing rags. They are high maintenance!! Hair nails mannis peddies wardrobes and parties.
Regarding your December 11, 2013 at 4:33 pm comment Jack in which you exclaim that these women provide a service that obviously there is a need for and that prostitution would not exist (even “legal”) had there been no demand.
I have a problem with your post. All over this thread you defend women who are in that “trade” citing past abuses, dysfunctional family upbringing and drug adiction as possible causes. You also talked about some of them being as young as 14. And yet in the comment I cite, you defend the “trade” and justify its existence. I don’t get this contradiction from you???? On one hand you acknowledge that these women have all thes problems but on the other hand, the demand seems to justify prostitution for you? Your allegiance to these women is not credible…
I value these women and think that legal prostitution has put them in more harms way in Nevada. I also realize many of them struggle with enormous life issues. For me there is no justification for prostitution and I am surprised that as many as 9 individuals agree with you that demand justifies it no matter what the personal cost for these women may be. Legal is legal right?
“reality” and some others I read comments from on this thread have been bitten by the liberal progressivism to an extreme and that is evident. Supporting “legal prostitution” as a societal norm exemplifies what type of America some desire. But why not right?, prostitution, “legal” or not, possibly means more business for PP.
As I always say, “reality” has no concern for women’s welfare, never had and never will…
And nobody ever mentions all the upstanding family men who buy barely legal (or not) boys or girls off the street for a night, why should the people supplying be punished with lack of healthcare when those who provide the demand have no such problems accessing healthcare?
Yep. Read about this creep. He wasn’t buying kids off the street, but he was doing something just as bad. And don’t forget about that freak Sandusky, an upstanding member of the community who abused vulnerable young boys for DECADES.
http://news.yahoo.com/home-u-senator-39-aide-searched-porn-investigation-174039007.html
They are high maintenance!! Hair nails mannis peddies wardrobes and parties.
You are talking about one segment of the industry, the higher paid escorts. They just represent a small segment. And believe me, they are still at risk for violence. The women on “the stroll” (street prostitutes) don’t get mannies, peddies, wardrobes and parties, believe me.
For me there is no justification for prostitution and I am surprised that as many as 9 individuals agree with you that demand justifies it no matter what the personal cost for these women may be. Legal is legal right?
Are you including me in that number, Thomas? I in NO WAY condone prostitution. I just think that sex workers should have access to affordable health care. That’s all.
I just read you question to me Shannon. To answer it: I think that “legal” prostitutes should not expect reasonable coverage (#1), that if abortion and prostitution (and it seems contraception maybe) is covered by the ACA, that life-affirming procedures should also (IVF: btw I don’t agree with but covering all the other stuff and not this one is simply discriminatory).
And as I said many times, those that engage in high risk behaviors across the board cannot expect affordable premiums simply because it is not affordable for any provider to treat these high risk behaviors.
Hope I have clarified my position for you :)
phillymiss, there is no such a thing as “affordable” healthcare anymore.
As I stated many times, providers have the burden to provide the best personnel, equipment and medical care that is on par with 2014. Are they going to do this for these “legal” prostitutes on the cheap. Affordable healthcare is an oxymoron today.
I would rather my insurance covered the Mayo Clinic than Cook County Stroger Hospital – is that a better comparison? Some want “affordable,” I want the best.
So what if they DO get “manis, pedis,” etc? So what if they turned down acceptance to an Ivy League school to turn tricks? I have a real problem with categorizing people as “deserving” or “undeserving” when it comes to healthcare. It becomes all too easy to deny people care because we don’t agree with their lifestyle choices. My grandmother never exercised ate the heaviest, worst Eastern European diet imaginable. Surprise! She became diabetic. But what ghoul would have said, “Tough luck, lady, pay for that insulin in cold hard cash”?
But of course we aren’t seeing this kind of opposition to treatment for diabetes, a disease that is very often related to unhealthy lifestyle choices. That’s because it haa nothing to do with sex or the female body.
“There are other leftist and non-religious prolifers…”
Who should perhaps consider why they’re aligning themselves with a movement that is largely devoted to policing sex (especially female sexuality), enforcing normative gender roles, and securing special privileges and protections for their regressive religious beliefs WHILE ALSO gutting the social safety net, promoting big corporate interests, crapping on the environment and enabling a culture of violence by opposing any restriction to gun access.
Why ARE you prolife, Jack? Why associate yourself with a movement so conservative and fundamentally anti-humanist?
Please dont misunderstand my posts all…i was just pointing out that id say these women are being paid well. Unlike street prostitutes. In NO way do I support prostitution.
May I ask one question BlueVelvet, as an Eastern European myself I often wonder what makes some Eastern Europeans pro-abortion. You have some of that blood in you and obviously grew up around Eastern European heritage to an extent. So tell me – does it make sense for an Eastern European to be a pro-abort? I’m seriously concerned here :)
Id say the bunny ranch is more like being an escort. Prostitution will never end. I often see the drug addicted prostitutes out walking the streets in the seedy parts of town. The prostitution and drug addiction go hand in hand. Ive heard stories of girls who have sold their bodies just for something to eat.
Wow, Thomas. You seem so hardened. :( I have to say that, while there are those in the sex industry that choose it freely, my guess is that most of them didn’t. And of those who are “proud” of it, I would wager most of them are lying to themselves to cover up the pain. Humans do that.
And agree 100% about what Jack (and Phillymiss) have said. I get more mad and disgusted at the men who are “customers” than the women. The women are making bad choices, yes. Prostitution is bad, yes. But like they said, there seems to be a *huge* market for it (porn, prostitution, strippers). IT’s become so normal, almost expected, of all men to want and consume sex to such an unhealthy degree that most men do. And that makes me angry. Because those who consume are just as if not more guilty than the sex workers (I know they often get beaten severely if they try to leave, etc). And yet it’s laughed off as “Oh, you know, men will be men.” “They gotta get some.” “It’s their wives fault!” “Well she shouldn’t have propositioned him!”
There seems to be a serious lack of real men in this country. Real men who will stand up for and protect women, and respect them, instead of degrading them for cheap pleasure while degrading not only the sex worker but also their wives and, to some extent, all the women in their lives. It’s infuriating!
The bunny ranch kinda reminds me of the Playboy mansion.
I think we are alkowing women to play the victim role here. These are grown women willing and of age to give consent to what they are doing. Nobody is putting a gun to their heads here. Prostitution is a supply/demand deal. There are $$ hungry women out there too.
Watched the E true Hollywood story on Hef the other day. Kendra was interviewed and spoke favorably of the mansion and the royal treatment one could get there. If Kendra is scarred it sure isnt showing. She even married Hank at the mansion. SHRUG
There are a lot of jobs in vegas. Waitresses maides for all of the casinos Plenty of fast food places. Im telling you IMO which may not mean that much – these women have a CHOICE to stay or go. Im not talking about minors but grown women. To say otherwise is like saying they arent smart enough to make any decisions on their own.
“I often wonder what makes some Eastern Europeans pro-abortion.”
Well, I’m not Eastern European myself but I’m just going to go ahead and blame communism. The USSR legalized abortion before pretty much everyone else ( in around 1920, I think) and this gave it more time to sink into the culture and become accepted then has been the case in most western nations.
Again just as some women are not forced into their abortions…not all women are forced into prostitution. Its a choice for many. A bad one but a choice of free will. I mean what if some guy is going through a divorce and decides to pay a prostitute for some company. Is he a victim too? Shes taking his $ after all.
Hey peoples,
lighten up a little, OK? There are two things (at least) happening here! 1) are ‘good-medical practices and 2) how these get paid for. Insurance is part of #2 … you Yanks are NOT getting what you pay for (not even close)! This does not mean that you are not paying A LOT, NOW. Is that money well spent? As far as paying goes: why not have a national lottery with the total of its profits kicked into a special-medical insurance pool for …. people at-high-risk; people with hi-cost-special-care; etc.
Now please treat #1 as a separate ‘health-reform’ issue and not-at-all the same as #2, (as if throwing more money building hospitals, etc. PROVES anything but lack-of-foresight). Its like having a building spree to build more nursing schools, to have more graduating nurses. AND THEN CLAIMING THE HEALTH CRISIS FIXED! All that has really been accomplished, is that medical-ineptitude has been spread wider.
You are misreading my posts phillymiss. At this point its not truly relevant what pushes some women to become “legal” prostitutes. The question is how affordable should healthcare be for risky-behaviors of those who truly choose to engage in them. Under the US law, healthcare is not an entitlement. Its nice to have it but it is not a human rights violations by any means (I am expecting bricks to fall on my head for this one). I have no problem with people engaging in high-risk behaviors- well all is good – just pay a premium proportionate with the costs at 2014 rates for treating your lifestyle choices.
I applied this same logic to me above as well. I would never expec t anyone to shill out $ for the treatment all these pierogi may do to my cholesterol (ask BlueVelvet whatt pierogi are :) )
I am going to repeat this for as long as I need to: “affordable” healthcare does not exist in 2014 unless one wants a fly-by-night clinic with equipment from 1994 and a medical school “C” student to take care of them.
“And yet in the comment I cite, you defend the “trade” and justify its existence.”
Whoa, whoa. Whoa. Slow down there Thomas, buddy. I was not defending the trade, I think it’s pretty obvious I’m not fond of prostitiution. My issue is you’re throwing a hissy fit about prostitutes accessing healthcare and I’ve not heard barely a word about the “customers”. If there were no customers there would be no prostitutes.
JDC – I was thinking more in line of the American liberal progressivism propaganda but whatever :)
Thanks for clarifying Jack, I appreciate that. But here’s my concern: the repeat “customers” that keep these women employed and obviously all too happy to do it. That video clip does not show any of them in distress over their gigs.
Ha ha…Bluevelvet moaning the fact that Thomas R thinks people are “deserving or undeserving” whilst Bluevelvet defend whether some people are “deserving or undeserving” of LIFE.
We’re not about policing sex BV. Nice try. We’re about stopping the killing of innocent human beings in the womb. Pro-lifers come in many religions (we’re not all Christians) political camps (I am NOT a Republican and never have been) and races, sexual orientations and professions.
Everyone should have access to healthcare but the ACA and gov’t intrusion isn’t the way to do it. I don’t have answers…I just know this isn’t going to work out well in the end and already isn’t working out well for me and others.
December 12, 2013 at 11:40 am post was a response to LibertyBelle not phillymiss. Sorry for the confusion on my part. Jack I am slowing down :)
Sydney M, thank you my cyberspace rescuer. For a minute there I thought I was flying solo :)
“Why ARE you prolife, Jack? Why associate yourself with a movement so conservative and fundamentally anti-humanist? ”
We’ll I’ve tried to explain before, that the merits of a movement shouldn’t be judged on other views the adherents have. I think the idea that a human fetus is a person who deserves legal protection is solid, I can’t magically not believe that because most pro-lifers are conservative and I find some of the American conservative views repugnant. Have you ever seen how genuinely insane like 90% of animal rights activists are? Do you think I should stop caring about animals and start eating them because a lot of the people who agree with me are off their rockers?
And not ALL conservative views are bad, they have a point on some stuff. But even if they were 100% wrong on everything else, it doesn’t mean that they aren’t right about protecting the unborn.
Hi Niki what is Mohegan Sun?
Thomas I’m sorry but your views just remind me of the people who refused to take crimes seriously against street kids, prostitutes, strippers, addicts, etc… Because we “knew what we were getting into” and I guess should have expected and accepted crimes against ourselves.
Because prostitutes take “risks” they don’t deserve access to decent healthcare. Because that kid ran away from his horribly abusive home he deserved to be assaulted. After all, they were the ones who made the poor choices! I can’t stand that way of thinking.
I think everyone is deserving of life, Sydney M. I just don’t think we can treat women like property (read: slaves) to secure that life.
Jack we are not discussing children but grown “legal” prostitutes so while my views remind you of being uncaring of children - it is simply not true.
I am a clinician, a helping professional, with years of experience with sex crimes, sex offenders and victims of sex crimes. My lives work and dedication speak to the contrary of what you write. There is a lot you don’t know about what I represent.
Here I have expressed my philosphy and I impart that on my clients. But no worries, to end up on my caseload you have to commit a crime first. :)
I thought you just said you worked with victims AND offenders?
I included how people don’t take crimes seriously against adults as well as children in my comment. It’s the same thought process. Of course that addict died of an OD, shoulda thought if that before she started! I’ll always find the idea of “punishing people with consequences ” misguided, I believe.
“Watched the E true Hollywood story on Hef the other day. Kendra was interviewed and spoke favorably of the mansion and the royal treatment one could get there. If Kendra is scarred it sure isnt showing. She even married Hank at the mansion. SHRUG .”
There’s a huge difference between the very few people who work for Playboy or more “respectable” (hard for me to type that word regarding the sex industry lol) or “accepted” areas of the sex industry and the majority of sex workers. You’re talking about the best paid, most public, and more accepted workers and comparing them to the vast majority of sex workers who do not have the things that Kendra and Holly and those other ladies that personally work for billionaire Hef do (and he’s creepy regardless, but he might treat his employees a lot better than a pimp on the street does). And Playboy and everything surrounding it is really mild compared to most sex work, not that I’m saying I think it’s great or anything. It’s like pointing the McDonald’s CEO and being like “look, McDonald’s workers make plenty of money! Look at him, he’s rich!” lol.
It’s like when people talk about “famous” porn stars and use it as proof they are all paid well and treated comparitively well. Um, no, the vast majority of porn stars are used and treated like crap, and don’t make much money.
I’m versatile Jack, I cover both bases. Some of the offeder work requires family involvement and victim work. But I come from both orientations, having worked with each category exclusively too.
Obviously both have different issues and need different modalities although I find that the cognitive behavioral model works best for the offender and the victim. Never together, always separate sessions.
But anyway, this thread is and at the end of the day will be about “legal” adult prostitutes and not children…
“I’ll always find the idea of “punishing people with consequences ” misguided, I believe.”
Quick question Jack – you have children and yet you wrote the statement above? Seriously? Some are natural consequences like getting a frost bite when not covered appropriately and staying in 11 below weather (and the scenario you described). And some are consequences that need to be presented by caring adults, some are even needed to be elevated to the criminal justice system. Perhaps you meant that these consequences need to be applied reasonably and “restoratively?” Is that it?
I see, you only work with child victims, not adults? I was wondering because you said the only way I would end up on your caseload was if I committed some crime, but you also said that you worked with victims as well. I was just wondering.
“Legal” adult prostitutes and others in the sex industries are quite often victims of sex crimes, I’m sure you wouldn’t deny that. Not just women, either.
Adult offenders and child victims but I also worked with many illegal prostitutes sometime ago. I understand the dynamics well.
Like I said at some point, we all take responsibility for ourselves. Does this require counseling, maybe even therapy or just doing things? I just don’t see that these women view their situation as problematic. As long as that is the case, “legal” prostitutes they will remain…
“Quick question Jack – you have children and yet you wrote the statement above? Seriously? Some are natural consequences like getting a frost bite when not covered appropriately and staying in 11 below weather (and the scenario you described). And some are consequences that need to be presented by caring adults, some are even needed to be elevated to the criminal justice system. Perhaps you meant that these consequences need to be applied reasonabley and “restoratively.?” Is that it? ”
Yeah I didn’t explain myself well, I suppose. I do teach my kids there are natural consequences to things, but I wouldn’t, you know, let them die if they disobeyed and ran out into a busy street, you know? That’s how I feel people treat the vulnerable populations they LOVE to pick on. “Don’t want to die of an OD? Shoulda thought of that before you first shot up.” isn’t something I made up. Just because things have natural consequences doesn’t mean we just stand on the sidelines and turn up our noses at the stupid people doing stuff we don’t approve of or think is a good idea. There does come a point where you’ve done everything you can to help and people still choose to destroy themselves, and people DO have to have to make their own decision to leave destructive lifestyles behind, but I think people tend to gloat and have little compassion or understanding towards the people they claim to care about, often.
And at the very least, just because people make poor health decisions doesn’t mean they don’t deserve decent healthcare, especially if they want to pay for it themselves like these ladies do, they just can’t find anyone who will cover them.
“Like I said at some point, we all take responsibility for ourselves. Does this require counseling, maybe even therapy or just doing things? I just don’t see that these women view their situation as problematic. As long as that is the case, “legal” prostitutes they will remain… ”
Well some of them don’t see it as problematic, sure. Some of them might not be admitting it to themselves. I’ve gone through times where I’ve made objectively dangerous decisions and I didn’t see anything wrong with them either. But even if they NEVER agree with you that their work is dangerous or problematic, I don’t see why they shouldn’t have access to health insurance and healthcare. Many obese people don’t see anything wrong with their weight and don’t care about the risks, I don’t think those people should not be able to access healthcare either.
How many interventions does it taske for you to finally say you are on your own? At some point that drug addict has to take responsibility for him/herself and get with the program so to speak. Perhaps some of the people you describe have exausted their tolerance for the repeaters. IDK..
But I do know that a person has to be willing to get cleaned and sober, otherwise external help is of no use. Perhaps in this regard if they OD, whose fault is that then, society’s? Don’t think so…
How would the offender work have family involvement? Just curious. I had a friend on the street who was molested by his stepbrother and they got “family counseling” when CPS was involved, but the abuse continued with the added twist that the stepbrother now threatened to kill my friend if he said anything. His situation just solidified my opinion that keeping my mouth shut when it came to CPS was the right thing to do (I don’t hold that opinion now, but I did when I was younger).
“How many interventions does it taske for you to finally say you are on your own? At some point that drug addict has to take responsibility for him/herself and get with the program so to speak. Perhaps some of the people you describe have exausted their tolerance for the repeaters. IDK.”
There are drug addicts I know who will never get clean, ever. They might surprise me, but I doubt it. They still don’t make me angry or not have compassion for them though. They gave up a long time ago. I find it sad, and I wish they would keep trying, but I still think that they need healthcare and stuff even if they aren’t choosing to try.
I do agree that addicts and others in destructive lifestyles have to make the decision to change, it’s harder than just the decision though. People lose patience with addicts too quickly. I relapsed (with alcohol, not drugs) after over six years of no substance use at all. And that’s with me desperately wanting to be clean and sober. People who don’t have the reasons I do (kids, mostly) have even more difficulty sometimes.
“Thomas R’s thinking encapsulates the pro-life position perfectly: people having the wrong kind of sex should be punished for it.”
Don’t you just think for one minute Megan that sexuality is meant to be confined to the bedroom. Making prostitution “legal” resulted in unintended consequences for the collective. That is the issue. Perhaps the state of Nevada can exercise some civility and enroll these women in state-sponsored healthcare plan? The state of Nevada put them in this predicament by legalizing prostitution, not ME and not YOU.
And I don’t really care what type of sex these “legal” prostitutes engage in with their clients (whatever pays most would be my guess) but their chosen profession affects coverage issues and rates. They can have sex upsidedown or with one leg behind their backs or some other “position” for all I care but they need to take responsibility for doing so and not expect “affordable” healthcare as a given…
People have free will and have to be allowed some degree of self-efficacy. That is my definition of compassion Jack. I cannot ever allow myself to become an enabler. Compassion is a catch 22 sometime. Like I said above compassion may work if it is apllied reasonably and “restoratively.”
There is a difference between enabling and accepting that people still need basics like healthcare and food even if they are screwing up and not getting better and living risky lifestyles. Like I’ve said before, unless you’re willing to let them die (which I don’t think you are at all), we have to find a way to provide these things to people that won’t bankrupt everyone.
“And I don’t really care what type of sex these “legal” prostitutes engage in with their clients (whatever pays most would be my guess) but their chosen profession affects coverage issues and rates. They can have sex upsidedown or with one leg behind their backs or some other “position” for all I care but they need to take responsibility for doing so and not expect “affordable” healthcare as a given… ”
Dude their complaint was that they couldn’t get on ANY policy, expensive or not. That’s the issue, not that they want it to be super cheap or “given” to them.
And as I said, policies that cover “legal” prostitution are the problem. Nevada never thought of that when they legalized prostitution. What a wonderful state!, and these women pay taxes don’t they?
Ah, so we agree that tax-funded universal healthcare is the way to go? Awesome. ;)
Thomas, I grew up in Buffalo, New York, where there is a large Polish population, so I definitely know what pierogies are. Yummy!
Jack, Thomas R:
I am enjoying your discussion of consequences. I have worked with many types of personalities, (and personality disorders); and one thing that strikes me about your words about intervention is an oft repeated phrase in the counseling world: you can’t take care of someone more than they care about themselves.
For a person with addictions or personality disorders floundering like a ship in a storm, a loved one shouldn’t abandon him or her, but the loved one needs to be a lighthouse on firm ground for the ship. The lighthouse can’t walk out into the water and grab the ship and steer them home. The ship has to figure out how to do it on his/her own.
I’ve seen this: enabled people rarely get better. Those who suffer often get help if they know no one else will do it for them.
“I’ve seen this: enabled people rarely get better. Those who suffer often get help if they know no one else will do it for them.”
Now see I don’t disagree that people have to make the decision to get clean, or stop prostituting themselves, or whatever the destructive behavior is that they should stop. But what I see a lot is people proudly claiming they aren’t an enabler while hanging people out to dry. I don’t think people get that to do something like quit drugs, or get off the street, or stop stripping, it requires a complete and utter lifestyle change. All your friends, gone in one day. Every coping mechanism for your pain you have used for years is now unavailable to you as well. You usually have to move. If your family is in the lifestyle (drugs and other things tend to be familial problems as well as individual problems), then you might have to leave your entire family behind too. Just in regards to drugs… withdrawal sucks, hardcore. I can’t even describe how painful it is, there are just no words. But what’s worse is a few months after. You look around and you realize you have nobody, the way you’ve lived your life for the last however many years is completely off limits unless you want to backslide. Your friends? You can’t even call them without risking your sobriety. I didn’t have family that I was close to in the first place, but many addicts end up having to abandon their parents/siblings/significant others just to maintain sobriety. It’s actually exceedingly difficult, even without the physiological aspects of addiction. It’s like that for people getting out of other destructive communities, even if drugs aren’t involved most of these people have built their lives around other people like them (other strippers, prostitutes, etc). People are quite callous about stuff like this. It’s not as easy as “well it’s their choice”. You just have to look around at everyone you love and spend time with, and all the activities you enjoy doing and help you cope with life, and imagine that you can never see those people or do those things ever again or it will kill you or otherwise cause you major damage. It’s not as easy as people simply making a choice to remain where they are. Not everyone can bring themselves to give up everything.
/soapbox.
I think Carla was right, you just argue to argue. There is nothing that anyone can do or say because you will come up with million and one excuses for anything and everything. You will justify and find blame everywhere. There is always a but in there for you. I am sorry, I cannot understand your approach to life Jack. Eric there attempted to convey some worthwhile message as well. You are truly stuck…
Omg why is it always “arguing to argue” if I don’t agree with one of you? It can’t possibly be because I believe what I believe and don’t agree with you, I have to be stubbornly disagreeing just to be contrary. That’s seriously insulting. If it’s not Megan implying that I should abandon something I truly believe because you guys have other views that are pretty darn wrong (imo), it’s one of you accusing me of just trying to argue instead of actually believing what I say.
And it’s really insulting that I’m “stuck” if I don’t agree with you or think that you’re correct in everything. I’ve done ok.
I cannot understand your approach to life Jack. – I’ve noticed that. Says a lot really.
It seems that a few folk here rip more on Jack than on people such as myself.
Could that be because certain positions and opinions are more ‘expected’ of pro-choicers than anti-choicers in areas other than abortion?
To me it just further displays a distaste for choice. Stuck.
“We’ll I’ve tried to explain before, that the merits of a movement shouldn’t be judged on other views the adherents have.”
But sometimes these views say something that really can’t be ignored.
“But sometimes these views say something that really can’t be ignored.”
Yes, but being okay with killing unborn babies is also something I cannot ignore. I don’t know if you think I’m not being sincere or something, but I find abortion just as awful as any of the anti-humanist views you pointed out. More so, actually. Honestly, in the perfect pro-choice world I wouldn’t actually be sitting here typing because my mom didn’t want me and was prevented from aborting, so I think it’s a little weird people find it hard to believe I’m not okay with that.
Imagine if liberals were totally cool with killing toddlers. Would that be something you could overlook just because you agreed with the left about many other things? Probably not. It doesn’t mean that you wouldn’t agree with the otherwise liberal views, but you couldn’t just pretend that they weren’t also supporting killing toddlers. And even if the anti-toddler killers went against a lot of things you believed and you weren’t too fond of many of their other viewpoints (in general), you’d still have to be involved in the stopping the toddler killing.
And if I “ignored” those views I probably wouldn’t be arguing as much as I do, btw. Ha.
This is a debate that wont be agreed upon so here is my final take. IMO and through personal stories here is my final take. Not all prostitutes were abused as children. Many choose this. Some women are prostitutes because they are drug addicts. There are rehabs and many get sober through rehab and a special program in Cleveland called project hope designed to help women get off the streets and stop hooking. The choice is theirs and the help is there and free if they want it bad enough. I also know 2 women who were raped by their fathers! One became pregnant from her dad at age 17 and gave the baby up for adoption. I havent spoken to her since 2004 but she was married pro life and she and her husband wanted to adopt. She was 46 when I last saw her. Anyway neither woman became a prostitute. One is a cosmotologist ( retired ) and the other worked in healthcare with me.
Also Cleveland has a lot of free rehabs so they are there too. I know addicts who want the program because they are sick and tired of the way they are living. I wont say its easy and many dont make it. Heroin is very popular here. But again one must be sick and tired of being sick and tired.
“I think it’s a little weird people find it hard to believe I’m not okay with that.”
Fair enough. Must cause a kind of existential whiplash. The way I see it though is that you’re a good thing that resulted from a kind of injustice. Say we’re both hospitalized, you with kidney failure and me with something else. If the doctors remove one of my kidneys to give to you without my consent, that’s an injustice committed against me, although your sustained existence is a good thing.
You know “reality” that you are a perfect example of an enabler. It does not matter how you interpret my commentary in light of the patronizing comments you direct at Jack and your twisted definition of “choice.”
You are right about not “ripping” on Jack though, but your motive is to get him to switch allegiances to your side and nothing more. Your responses to him are not that hard to decipher to illustrate this motive.
You can’t hide your lack of genuineness, it just emanates.
You are not stuck in life as much as you are in always looking for the external attributions Jack. Is that clearer? I look at your commentary and see this:
– arguing that people should not have consequences, which as you stated you seem to think is punishment.
– stating that the demand justifies “legal” prostitution and than backtracking.
– you also missed the point of all my comments, which were directed at adult “legal” prostitutes and went way off on a tangent, all the while dismissing any individual responsibility these women have as adults.
These are just three examples you’ve written a book on above but your comments are replete with externalizing everything and anything.
And I also think you misunderstood Eric’s comment big time but that may just be me…
Hi Thomas R.Agreeing with you on realitys agenda.
Hi Heather, happy friday the 13th. Have you seen Jason yet? :)
Please everyone, give us the heads up on the guy if you see him :) :)
Qui se ressemble se rassemble…
Now that’s funny DE. I only wish I would remember some of that French I took in high school when reading the posts..
Ok Thomas, first off I would like to register my annoyance about how many threads end up “this is why Jack sucks” instead of anything relevant. Maybe I should ask the mods to start a “Jack Sucks” thread where you and truthseeker and everyone else who likes to disagree with me as a person, not my views, can bash on me to your hearts content. It might be cathartic for some of you and keep other threads into devolving into “you don’t think exactly like me, it must be an issue with you as a person rather than you simply having opinions I don’t agree with!”
“You are not stuck in life as much as you are in always looking for the external attributions Jack. ”
I like to find explanations and what contributes to why people act the way they do. It’s not a crime to think that way, it’s like half the field of sociology! And I think people’s choices are a bit less free than you do, I think circumstances and biology have more of a role to play than you do. So sue me, it’s not the huge character flaw you like to make it out to be. I will admit it’s probably partially an overreaction to severe victim blaming from when I was a kid, if you get treated as hyper-responsible for things you couldn’t possibly have prevented like sexual abuse, you kind of go the other way. But there I go looking for external reasons, again. Don’t want to make you mad. It just really is the way I think and I think it’s okay, not worthy of accusations of “arguing just to argue” or anything like that.
“- arguing that people should not have consequences, which as you stated you seem to think is punishment.”
You don’t understand a word I’ve said apparently. You can’t prevent all consequences, but I believe even people who made poor choices like unhealthy eating or drugs or prostitution should be entitled to basics like medical care.
“- stating that the demand justifies “legal” prostitution and than backtracking.”
No, you misunderstood my comment, accused me of saying this, and now are accusing me of backtracking on something I’ve never said and don’t believe.
“- you also missed the point of all my comments, which were directed at adult “legal” prostitutes and went way off on a tangent, all the while dismissing any individual responsibility these women have as adults. ”
Lol well guilty as charged on tangents, I tend to do that. I’m not the only one on this website who does that though. I don’t dismiss their individual responsibility, I just think there’s more to it than “they choose it”.
Make sure your next comment is replete in telling me the way the view the world is just bad and wrong because it’s not exactly like you, I never get tired of my “allies” saying such things.
If you think I am bashing on you I would ask that you re-read my comments. Than sit down and process for a long minute. I don’t think that my comments resemble those of TS by any stretch of your imagination (and I would advise you compare the content as well).
Carla was right: it’s not everyone against Jack but Jack against everyone else, and as she said it always ends up that way. And the way it always ends is Jack accusing all of being bashed, disliked and now that he “sucks” just because he disagrees.
And so you know, its not that a thread “Jack Sucks” is needed. I think you truly need something to get over whatever it is that is eating you up. There…
Frankly I have exausted myself with all the commentary I posted here yesterday, and so Jack its whatever.
Enjoy the weekend…
And good lord I’m a grown man, Thomas, who cares if Reality tries to “convert” me? I can make my own decisions. Lol. Plenty of pro-choicers have tried over the years since they seem to see me as easier to get to than all of you, and no one succeeded. I got a few of them to change their views on abortion though.
“Fair enough. Must cause a kind of existential whiplash. The way I see it though is that you’re a good thing that resulted from a kind of injustice. Say we’re both hospitalized, you with kidney failure and me with something else. If the doctors remove one of my kidneys to give to you without my consent, that’s an injustice committed against me, although your sustained existence is a good thing.”
Well I’m glad you don’t think it’s bad that I currently exist, that would be rather rude, but can you not see where you’re basically saying it IS bad I exist? I’m sorry, I just can’t view the whole “didn’t get to kill me” as an injustice.
Look it’s not like I don’t get the pro-choice arguments for choice and a woman’s self-determination, I do, but I simply can’t agree that those arguments justify that she can kill her own offspring without a life or death reason for doing so. And the vast majority of the time, abortion doesn’t have anything to do with preserving the mother’s life.
“If you think I am bashing on you I would ask that you re-read my comments. Than sit down and process for a long minute. I don’t think that my comments resemble those of TS by any stretch of your imagination (and I would advise you compare the content as well). ”
Well I will apologize because I probably shouldn’t have compared you to truthseeker, he’s like a million times meaner for one thing, you’re much more akin to Tyler (he doesn’t seem to comment much at all any more). I simply don’t get why you don’t see how ending half our arguments with “there’s something wrong with you because you don’t agree with me” isn’t bashing. If you notice, I do genuinely try to limit my arguing with y’all to your views and opinions (though sometimes I fail at that), instead of putting you under a microscope as a person. I don’t see why it’s hard to see why I would feel attacked. I actually am quite fond of you all as people and think you’re good people, genuinely, I just disagree with many of your viewpoints. But people start out disagreeing with my viewpoints, and eventually it goes into judging my character or focusing it on me as a person and the way I think instead of whatever opinion of mine you don’t like. Which I think is unfair. There’s a problem when the pro-choicers tend to give me more credit than some of my allies.
”Carla was right: it’s not everyone against Jack but Jack against everyone else, and as she said it always ends up that way. ”
A far more accurate way of stating this is Jack takes issue with some conservative viewpoint, and everyone disagrees because it’s mostly conservatives on this website (which is fine), and it eventually devolves into people viewing my disagreeing as some type of character flaw or stubbornness, and focusing the conversation on me instead of my views. I’m not the only person who notices or thinks this. And I kinda wish other pro-lifers would chime in when this happens some time. I miss xalisae.
And plenty of things “eat me up” but that’s quite removed from me not having the same opinions as you all, and I think it’s unfair to put that on me. You’re all about self-awareness, maybe you could reread this thread or others and see where you’re going after me instead of just disagreeing.
Have a nice weekend Thomas. I do find it quite exhausting to defend myself, not my viewpoints (I enjoy a good argument about views), but as a person, or pro-lifer, or whatever. It seriously does get old.
You know “reality” that you are a perfect example of an enabler. – only in your mind. I do not encourage or support destructive behaviors. I support people as best I can.
It does not matter how you interpret my commentary in light of the patronizing comments you direct at Jack and your twisted definition of “choice.” – for you to accuse me of patronizing Jack is so rich it’s almost nauseating. My definition of ‘choice’ is clear and concise, nothing twisted about it.
You are right about not “ripping” on Jack though, but your motive is to get him to switch allegiances to your side and nothing more. Your responses to him are not that hard to decipher to illustrate this motive. – ‘switch allegiances’, that’s funny. Please demonstrate anything which supports your claim. Illustrate what it is that you have deciphered. On the occasions when I address Jack soley it is usually as an amusing aside or to provide support when he is under attack – yes, attack – from some people here.
You can’t hide your lack of genuineness, it just emanates. – so you don’t think I’m really pro-choice then? Or what then?
Carla was right: it’s not everyone against Jack but Jack against everyone else, and as she said it always ends up that way. – balderdash. There are only a small number who are ‘against’ Jack, not everyone.
I have regularly observed these people excoriating Jack for not outright condemning folk for not living a lifestyle approved of by those critics. Jack is fervently against abortion but he doesn’t demand that everyone conform to what certain people consider the ‘proper’ way of living their lives.
I have seen him relentlessly proselytized because he’s not a full on theist. I have observed people pound him for not agreeing that ‘boys will be boys’ yet all boys are full of ‘evil intent’ and should be punished because you just know they’ll do something ‘bad’ at some stage….or something. And I see how a small group ‘bash’ him, twist and misrepresent his responses and attempt to dismiss his viewpoint simply because they don’t approve of it.
Quite frankly Jack is probably the most honest person here. Jack speaks of how life really is. He speaks with honesty and truth. He explains why some things are as they are and why some people do the things they do. And some of you simply can’t stand that. Sad.
All right, this is Jack under my new name. It just works on several levels! You may refer to me as either my real name or “Deluded”. :D
“I have seen him relentlessly proselytized because he’s not a full on theist.”
I don’t mind proselytizing as long as it’s not mean. “You’re an awful sinner and going to hell” <—- not okay with me, how would they even know where my soul goes anyway? Bible says they don’t know. “God loves you [insert whatever uplifting message]” <—- fine.
Otherwise thanks for the comment.
Maybe you and Ex-GOP could form a club Deluded.
I just get sick and tired of observing the non-gender specific ‘queen bees’ relentlessly harangue you for not conforming to their ideals.
Now, about your conversion.
Lol well Ex and I are already in the club of “it’d be awesome if you attacked my arguments instead of me, and no being liberal in ways other than abortion is not a contradiction”. I just don’t agree with him about voting for pro-choice Dems.
I honestly don’t care if people argue with me 24/7, I just want the whole personal focus to stop.
Yes, I have actually seen Ex-GOP being accused of being pro-abortion. While I don’t recall the same being said of you the same mindset is clearly apparent. I find anti-choicers supporting the death penalty more dichotomous.
Well, not all GOP politicians are fully or really or at all anti-choice. Some Dem’s are. And the GOP politicians who are genuinely and fully anti-choice are usually so harmful in so many other ways it’s a teeth-sucking exercise for even some anti-choicers to vote for them.
The personal focus is what people resort to when they haven’t got anything better. I also cop a bit of it from time to time. It might perturb me if there were an element of truth to some of the things that are said but then again, it’s only a drop in the ocean compared to the sheer volume of unjustified opprobrium that you cop.
I’ve been accused of being pro-abortion a time or two, but usually it’s just a few people who tell me I’m “tepid” or don’t really care about the unborn as much as conservatives do or something like that. I find that annoying, I’m quite vocal about my pro-life views. And I can see the reasoning for being pro-death penalty but anti-abortion, but I don’t agree with it. That’s one thing I really appreciate about the Catholics, the Catholic view on the death penalty is something I can get behind.
I am of the opinion that most politicians don’t care about abortion other than a political tool, whether they claim pro-life or pro-choice. GOP politicians use it to rally the base or to get people like me who aren’t GOP but can’t morally justify voting for someone who publicly supports killing unborn babies legally. The Dems find it a handy issue to rally THEIR base and get some of the less stringent libertarian vote who care more about social issues than economics (they do the same thing with legalizing pot and things like that). It’s all a mess.
“I also cop a bit of it from time to time. It might perturb me if there were an element of truth to some of the things that are said but then again, it’s only a drop in the ocean compared to the sheer volume of unjustified opprobrium that you cop. ”
It’s mostly just human nature imo. You don’t claim to be “one of them”, so they aren’t going to focus on you any more than any other random pro-choicer. I do claim to be “one of them” but don’t agree with the majority of people who claim the label pro-life on other issues, so it’s discordant to the group. It’s the same reason I see infighting among different religious denomination that claim the same overall label (Christianity or Muslim or whatever) than I see them go after those of other religions or no religion (excluding countries where religious minorities are heavily persecuted). Some people just think heretics are worse than apostates, I guess.
Most pro-lifers and I get along fine though, it’s just a few that get upset with me. And the few incredibly cruel pro-choice trolls I’ve run across have been much, much meaner than any of my fellow pro-lifers have ever been. At least no pro-lifers have ever stalked my personal blog to make incest jokes or started a Facebook page with stolen pictures of my kids to make more jokes. Sigh.
I am of the opinion that most politicians don’t care about abortion other than a political tool, whether they claim pro-life or pro-choice. – ain’t that the truth. The Tea Party has been a fine example of this ort of political behavior.
Geez Jack, sounds like you’ve been on the receiving end of some reprehensible and juvenile deeds from all quarters! I’d guess the clowns you mention were more focussed on being trolls than arguing the pro-choice position. And are you 100% sure the stalkers are actually pro-choicers?
“The Tea Party has been a fine example of this ort of political behavior.” Heh. *shots fired*. Honestly the last prominent politician I actually think cares about ending abortion was Santorum, and his other views were just soooo wrong to me that I was highly disappointed that it was him I got a “I am genuinely anti-abortion” on. I actually think pro-life Dems and pro-choice GOPers are more likely to actually believe what they say about abortion, because they take a huge risk of losing votes to have those positions. But there could be some other political wrangling I’m unaware of there.
Lol well the person who stalked my blog was Jake who comments here, you might have seen him around. If him and I are on a thread just watch, he’ll still make “implications” to try and bother me even if he can’t be outright without getting banned (the stuff he said on my blog was seriously disgusting, he wouldn’t be able to say it here). I still wish he hadn’t found it, I didn’t intend anyone from the abortion debates to get to it. He followed Paladin from another pro-life blog, where he was consistently pro-abortion so I think if anything is true about what his idiot self says, that he does believe in legal abortion. Trolls tend to flock to controversial topics anyway so I take their views with a grain of salt, but when they span a couple years of it I tend to think they are at least being honest about their abortion position to the extent they care at all.
The people on Facebook came from a pro-life/pro-choice debate forum where pro-lifers were outnumbered 1 to 10 about, and eventually they just started trolling pro-lifers because they are just mean and bored. They couldn’t get me by calling my wife a whore or telling me I was a woman-beater (I just laugh at false accusations), so they somehow found out stuff that would actually bother me. And then I gave them the reaction they wanted, unfortunately, so they wouldn’t quit. Trolls are freaking annoying, which is kinda the point of them I guess.
I actually think pro-life Dems and pro-choice GOPers are more likely to actually believe what they say about abortion – I would tend to agree.
Can’t say I recall much of Jake here at all. Doesn’t sound like my cup of tea. Probably another example of people trying to make themselves feel better by attempting to bring down others. Why he would choose to do this to you rather than certain other potential ‘targets’ here I don’t know.
Trolls are freaking annoying, which is kinda the point of them I guess. – so I have observed Jack.
Time to paint the town rainbow I think ;-)
Oh he likes going after me because using that particular subject to mock someone will make everyone else mad too instead of just me. I mean, maybe some of the other pro-lifers and I here have our differences, but no one likes to see particularly horrific child abuse used to mock the victim, even people who might personally get annoyed with me will get upset about the things he says. And I tend to lose it and give him a good reaction. It was impressive trolling for a while I must say, quite dedicated. But he fails to make me upset now lol.
Have a good night Reality.
Hey Jack and Thomas ~ Compassion should be freely given AND personal responsibility should be unapologetically demanded. (Unfortunately, I do not claim to know how this translates into public policy). Most people are bad at executing at least one of these, and almost everyone is bad at balancing them. God, in His grace, does it all perfectly. I’m so glad. I get love I don’t deserve, and God expects me to try with all my heart to be the person He made me to be – one full of that very same GRACE! Amen.
For the record Jack, I don’t think you suck at all.
Jack i just typed out a long post to u and its in moderation so you wont get it.
Nothing personal seriously mods because i love you dearly but my comments on another thread are tossed because of homosexuality comments yet we have “funny” clips of Ellen on a Christian based blog. I find that inappropriate. *** just sayin
Heather sometimes the comments just caught in the spam filter for no reason, your comment isn’t being moderated on purpose. Just email one of the mods.
Didn’t I score “reality” on another thread as 80 percent cut-n-paste and ONLY 20 percent analysis and that was against a much more formidable opponent (Paladin). It seems that “reality’s” only strength remains cutting and pasting to an extreme and nothing of any substance. I wonder why?
Thanks for the response Jack – noted. It seems you know my writing and expressing style. Iit seems that whether you take things personally is truly a hit or miss. So I am really in a pickle here in terms of structuring my comments in a way you may not take personal offense to. But I will try :)
Well I am kinda oversensitive, probably because I tend to get attacked a lot and tend to be on the defensive (there I go with the external reasons again lol). I will try to give you the benefit of the doubt and examine my responses to your comments to see if I’m overreacting or if it’s true that you’re insulting me, heh.
Good call Jack. BTW: as far as your new moniker, I think “lib” gives it’s meaning a bad vibe :)
translation of my comment: is there such a thing as a liberal pro-lifer? having a hard time with the concept here :)
Yes of course there is! I’m living proof that you can have liberal views and still believe in legally protecting unborn babies from being killed (excepting life or death circumstances).
Didn’t I point out on another thread that “thomas r.’s” math and logic are as bad as each other. And ‘someone I really want to agree with’ is a strange definition of ‘formidable’.
It seems that “thomas r.’s” observation skills are also less than adequate.
I don’t really wonder why.
It is quite obvious “thomas r.”, that you lack either the ability or the inclination to represent things with any level of accuracy.
The only cutting and pasting during the conversations Paladin and I have conducted have been of the other’s words so that each would know what was being responded to. Did you fail to notice this?
We have structured our responses in quite similar manners. Did you fail to notice this?
Paladin’s overall comments have tended to be longer than mine because he copies and pastes more of what I have said, as well as what he had said prior to that, and sometimes writes more lengthy rejoinders. Did you fail to notice this?
The cutting and pasting to response ratio for both Paladin and myself would be closer to 50/50. Did you fail to notice this?
Any attempt to claim a ratio of either 80/20 or 20/80 is self-evidently highly inaccurate. Did you fail to notice this?
Your claims are a litany of observational failures.
And I’ll note your claim of ‘formidable’ as opinion. Whether it is any more accurate than your observational abilities is questionable.
You are absolutely correct in that I made a calculation error “reality.” I had the opportunityy to read some other comments of yours since I scored you 80 percent cut-n-paste and ONLY 20 percent analysis. My bad, its closer to 90 percent cut-n-paste and ONLY 10 percent analysis. :)
Want to add that your comments to Jack are not calculated in that score as that is pure patronizing with ZERO analysis.
Wow, you really want to go from bad to worse? In public? 80% or 90% cut and paste?
Oh well, be my guest :-)
Or you could try ‘word count’.
Hey “thomas r.”, the ‘1 likes’ you have is in bold. How did that happen??? Interesting.
.