Operation Rescue has just released an extraordinary video exposing abortionist George “the Killer” Tiller, who operates an infamous late-term abortion mill in Wichita, Kansas.
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
That was a very well presented video.
Jill,Thanks so much for the exposure of John Wayne Gacy..oops I meant George Tiller.Sorry,I mix them up all the time.Same smile.What was the big secret when the ambulance needed to be called? Oh,someone was just dying.No need for sirens.He’s the one I posted about before.Any person that would take this man’s side is NOT pro-woman at all.Half his staff doesn’t even hold licenses.He recruits off the streets.
PS.He’s also the abortionist that allows his patients to labor in a hotel room.Soaking the beds with amniotic fluids,fecal matter,urine,vomit,etc.When the women expel the child,it’s usually over a toilet[to ensure drowning if the child is born alive]or with 10 other women lined up like cattle on gurneys.
:(
I think this post needs an uplifting video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYyJT5cSBXE&NR=1
PIP,
While that video was cute, I couldn’t help notice that all the animals in it were alive.
Obviously, not a “problem”
mk
Two reasons to respect Tiller: 1. he’s very good at his job.
If you’re a doctor, and you have a patient who needs an abortion late in pregnancy, you can count on Tiller to get it done with minimal risk to the patient and minimal stress on her cervix and vagina.
If complications arise, Tiller has seen them before and knows how to deal with them.
2. He has been shot by a right-to-life terrorist, and yet he continues to practise. Gotta admire his guts.
Two reasons to respect Tiller: 1. he’s very good at his job.
So was Adolph Hitler, Stalin, Caligula, and Jeffrey Dahmer…
I don’t see this as quality demanding respect.
If the job you do is disgusting, then no matter how well you do it, you still just doing a disgusting job well.
Did you mean his guts literally? Or figuratively?
mk
If complications arise,Tiller knows how to deal with them. Ya,he sends them to the morgue.
Ohhhhh…
Good one momof3!! You really made MK proud!!
High-five!!
No LG,I made you proud!!Smile
Yikes. I am certified to read ultra sound images. Now, my experience is on dogs, cats and llamas but the organs etc. are pretty much the same as humans.
How do you, while using an ultra sound machine, hit the HEAD twice with a needle when you are trying for the heart? While pregnant with my daughter I had about a gazillion ultra sounds done. The babies head is enormous. Even if the baby is moving around, you could still back off and try again. I could understand hitting the abdomen, but the head? What? That is malpractice without a doubt.
That 911 call made me sick. They were more concerned about reputation than a womans life. yep, this is all about protecting women isn’t it? Just ask the women in NJ who went to MMA. yep, its all to protect the women.
Good thing abortion is legal. No back alley botch jobs are done now.
Tiller is the worst Valerie.He has botched so many procedures.He is one of the sickest abortionists out there!
After I saw the movie I sorta wanted to throw up. I’m not gonna lie.
OMG that is horrible. If those pictures are really of babies who were victims of abortion, it makes me wonder where God is…a hiatus in Fiji, maybe?
PS George Tiller looks strangely like the guy who tried to kill the St. Bernard in Beethoven. That was my first experience with a human villian.
It’s true samantha that video was horrifying.
As much as I am repulsed by abortion I can’t switch over with a good conscience–for the women involved. Why don’t we offer more effecient services to help them once we indeed make the women carry their babies to term? What happens when many people give up their children for adoption and there are no homes for them? What makes you think that there won’t be a sharp increase in home abortions (this is different than figures before, but considering how many people get abortions now, how will they react when they feel that right is being taken away?). These are osme of just a few questions that have kept me under the heading of “pro-choice” for quite a while.
prettyinpink~
I dont think there is a simple answer. I dont think that it is right for any woman to be forced to carry a child agaist her will. But I cannot reconcile this right to bodily autonomy with the idea that a life is being inhumanely eradicated. Kate, if someone killed you by pulling your body apart, they would be buried underneath the jail…and when that one rotted, they would build a new one on top of it. You are absolutely correct in questioning the many aspects of your position, which I cannot answer. I think that the only solution is going to be to get society to the point where birth control is available to everyone, sex ed is successfully taught to everyone, and an unplanned pregnancy is not synonymous with financial ruin. If women can conceive when they are ready to, or better yet, when they want to, abortion will become a rare medical procedure that is necessary for life rather than the butchering of a tiny human.
Because of my primitive computer I cannot view the video. Can someone post the salient points? What do they accuse Tiller of?
“mom of 3”, you wrote: “He has botched so many procedures.”
How many? I don’t want a list of them, I want a number. How many cases do you know of that Tiller has botched?
SOMG:
I feel dirty just being on the same post with you.
Tiller and you are cut from the same cloth.
And, it is is stained with the blood of innocent children.
It seems like your side is winning now, but, Hitler felt the same way and his end was aborting himself.
Poetic justice?
What is not shown in this video is that Christin Gilbert walked into the Tiller clinic and collapsed. She had been sent to the hotel the previous day to abort and became critically ill. One of Tiller’s untrained and unlicensed staff was “supervising” Christin’s care at the hotel but didn’t have brains enough to see just how critically ill she was. Resuscitation was started yet it was 40-45 minutes before it occurred to anyone at the clinic to call 911! I think all of us have sense enough to know when to call 911. I mean, we’ve heard of school children saving someone’s life by recognizing medical emergencies and placing such calls. We’ve even heard of family pets who have saved their owner’s lives by recognizing medical emergencies and alerting someone. But these geniuses at Tiller’s clinic couldn’t figure out that a non breathing woman in cardiovascular collapse needs immediate transport to a hospital? And when it finally dawns on them after 40 minutes, their only concern is that there are no lights or sirens. Downplaying the seriousness of the situation and placing the 911 operator on hold, how much valuable time was lost doing that? If I’m in a situation like this I don’t care if the EMS blows a foghorn, just that they get to the person who needs help and fast.
I have been blessed by God to be able to live in beautiful Phoenix, Arizona.
The time difference makes it somewhat difficult to post in sync with others, especially those on the east coast.
However, I am able to sit back and read the posts of the day and just try to absorb what was said on both sides of the abortion issue.
Not much changes. Pro-lifers argue that abortion is murder and do this I believe as the mouth, hands, eyes, and ears of a God who pleads through them to those who refuse to hear with their hearts and be healed of a disease likened to leprosy of the soul.
I see those that reject the idea that you can have a debate about abortion using God as the central theme and would rather use statistics and medical jargon masked in intellectualism to “prove” that the taking of an innocent human being’s life is alright and without consequence.
What they don’t see is the blood gushing from their heads as they pound them against the rock solid wall of truth, over, and over, and over again. They are so numbed from the pounding that they don’t even notice that it’s their own blood on their faces. Still, like drooling imbeciles, they pound away, hoping to change lies into truth.
Here’s my conclusion: pro-lifers must persevere in presenting the truth that abortion is murder and stand firm in the truth that all who choose, support and perform it as such are partners in murder. Yes, whether they like it or not, those who think that they are just “pro-choice” are really pro-death because they see at least one solution to a moral dilemma to be the death of an innocent child. This must never, ever, be ratified as long as we pro-lifers have breath.
So, Dr. Tiller, my base instincts want to, for just a moment, take justice in my own hands and deal with you, but no, we are all guilty of killing at least one innocent, Jesus Christ. If I am truly pro-life and a believer in the Lion of Judah, I must at a minimum, respect your right to life as well. Perhaps you will add another verse to the hymn, “Amazing Grace” someday. My Lord does say this in Romans 12:19, “Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” So, I press on, knowing that my God reigns and someday, somehow, all wrongs will be made right. Maybe on this side, for sure on the other side.
However, the reality that abortion is murder will not change. Therefore, things said in previous posts about abortion are still true and applicable to this article as well, so, I’ll repeat myself, with some editing license taken of course.
You have to realize that pro-deathers are not driven by logic. They are driven by the lust for power, perhaps abortion followers without realizing it, but its leaders and initiators, and the likes of Dr. Tiller, guilty as hell.
I am not sure where Dr. Tiller fits into this construct since he is a caricature of the pro-death stance, almost heinously comical. However, I would dare to say that his lust for power has turned into madness soon to be revealed. Perhaps a professional inferiority complex expressed in the ultimate power over life and death. Perhaps a male identity crisis. Who knows?
Pro-deathers are no different than the poor man who fantasizes about taking the rich man’s watch without regard to how or why the rich man acquired the watch; while poor materially, they lack no prejudice. They feel totally justified in their position, not because of logic but in some sinister form of perverted self-righteousness not thoroughly arrived at, at having simply arrived. Perhaps this itself feeds the power demon inside them, at just being able to arrive, at joining up: “I’m in the club now and no one will every kick me out, not even me”.
They reject anyone or anything in authority that would tell them how to live including God Himself and it’s generally masked in the facade of women’s rights, SOME being a case in point, an obvious hired gun, probably a PP retained PR liar for hire.
When you analyze the typical pro-death stance, it is a very parasitical way of thinking. I mean, they kill unborn baby woman too don’t they? How dare they use the issue of abortion to bolster their sense of self-hood while violating the rights of their sisters? Again, the perverted, twisted and demented logic shows its ugly head from every angle through the looking glass. Ah, but they see in a mirror darkly? No, the light’s off, Alice.
So, when they acknowledge the horror of a baby cooking video, or talk about how bad kicking a bag with a dead baby in it is, or allowing a baby to die in a toilet in an abortion deathatorium despite the pleas of the mother for the baby’s life, they really are acknowledging the horror of abortion since to not do so would be illogical and on the surface heartless. In being consistent with their shared symptoms of the disease of the practice and worship of political correctness, to not to appear to, at a minimum, be abhorred at such an obvious outrage is, well, politically incorrect. Perhaps a learning protocol for an Ivy League women’s studies course? Yes, in that class they would learn how to show outrage without having to take any responsibility for eliminating the outrage simultaneously being able to support the system which allowed the outrage to occur in the first place.
What pro-deathers fail to realize is that in doing so, they for a moment remove their masks, and their K-9 fangs show through the sheepskin, scaring even themselves. Does a werewolf know who he is? No, I answer, he has been transformed by the night and howls at the moon as if pleading for the sun to come out. Madness is his addiction and there is no way out. When his plea is answered, he runs, being terrified by the very light he longed for. The mystery of iniquity, who can understand it?
So, I ask myself, if we disparage ourselves of the silliness and really take a deep look into the soulless eyes of Abortion, asking ourselves, what is this thing, this person, this demon called Abortion? Here’s what I, HisMan, have observed:
Abortion is an affront to the creative nature of God, it negates God as Creator.
Abortion denies the power of God to right a wrong, to show forth His glory, it negates God as redeemer.
Abortion makes that which is good, the birth of human life, into that which is evil, the death of human life, and then calls it good, the very definition of blasphemy.
Abortion negates the resurrection power of God as it takes flesh that is alive in it’s earthly abode (the womb) and kills it, while God takes that flesh which is dead in it’s earthly abode (the grave) and desires to make it alive.
Abortion’s desire is to take that which was composed from the chaotic array of elemental molecules into a symphony of life infused with an eternal soul, and turn it back to the entropy of randomness, chaos, nothingness, uselessness, decay, death.
Abortion disguises itself as a magic elixir to a moral dilemma, only to be found out in its exercise, that the manufacturer was satan himself and whose indications are death, theft and destruction of those who follow the deadly words on its label. Sadly, with an immoral government supporting the use of such poison, its partakers are without recourse.
Abortion is against all that is hopeful, all that requires faith for success; for it’s solution; annihilation, it’s goal; death, it’s dream; breaking God’s heart, it’s vision, satan’s ultimate power.
Abortion is a counterfeit, for the clawprints of satan are everywhere to be found in its performance.
Abortion disguises hate as love, bondage as freedom, choice as maturity, sin as righteousness, political correctness as wisdom.
Abortion pits children against their mothers, mothers against their children, men against women, fathers against God, not realizing a house divided against itself cannot stand.
Yes, Abortion is satan’s feeble attempt at killing God himself, for Abortion is a metaphor for satan; it is his coat of arms, his family crest, his logo, his brand; it belongs to him……for he laughs at its willing proponents as they craft their own self-destruction, mantled in self-deception.
It did not work at Calvary. It will not work here.
And who is this person named Abortion? It is everyone who has committed it, chose it, performed it, and supported it. Dr. Tiller is to be pitied of most men, for he finds support in his own destruction, trapped in the web of self-deceit, hate feeding hate.
Thank God, Abortion can be transformed by saying: “Lord forgive me, for I knew not what I had done”. Amen.
I would like to add that there was never any documentation made by Tiller’s staff of Christin’s collapse and follow up “care”. This in itself is enough to hang any medical professional legally. Any good lawyer worth his/her salt will go over documentation with a fine tooth comb. If there is none, you’re guilty, period. This alone should have been enough to prove Tiller and his staff negligent. Tiller and his staff were never held accountable, even though Christin was pronounced dead shortly after her arrival to the hosital. At that point she was well beyond any hope of survival.
Samantha,
click here: http://www.christiangallery.com/atrocity/GORYPICS.HTM
Just skip the last one as it is kind of silly.
This site is really kind of over the top, but the photos speak volumes…
http://www.100abortionpictures.com/Aborted_Baby_Pictures_Abortion_Photos/
I know looking at these photos is hard…
But I force myself to look at them every once in awhile, just to remember why I am doing this.
When people defend abortion by bringing up God and saying that we don’t know what He thinks of abortion, I just have to look at these pictures to know that, yes, I think we can know exactly what God thinks of abortion.
Even if I never read a word of scripture, even if I am a complete and devout atheist, nothing can justify this. It is wrong. On so many levels.
Just wrong.
mk
One other point on Christin Gilbert. She is a classic example of how abortion covers up rape/incest. She had Down syndrome. She was 19 years old. She was brought by her family in TX to Tiller’s KS mill for a third trimester abortion (28 weeks).
Christin was sexually assaulted by someone. She was mentally unable to consent to sex. Her sexual assault – like COUNTLESS others of little girls, etc. – would never have been known had not she died. Pregnancy of a person like Christin is an obvious sign of abuse. There was an intentional cover-up.
To my knowledge, Christin’s rapist has never been identified or prosecuted.
PIP, 12:57a, said: “As much as I am repulsed by abortion I can’t switch over with a good conscience–for the women involved. Why don’t we offer more effecient services to help them once we indeed make the women carry their babies to term?”
PIP, you don’t get that your first response to poverty is actually sick. I’m not being a smart mouth here. You were raised with the thinking that the solution to poverty is exterminate the poor, i.e., population control. Your very post is evidence.
The solution to the despair of poverty is to provide food, shelter, warmth, and education; not kill the poor.
Samantha and PIP –
I have asked this question many, many, many times with no answer. I am going to ask again. Maybe if I ask enough someone will finally answer.
How many free programs do we need? How many more free contraceptions should we give out. How much more educational programs should be out there?
The government provides programs for women who have children and do not have money. Free food in WIC and food stamps, free housing with Section 8, help with finding jobs. The government has programs to help if you are drowning in debt, they help with medical bills…How much more help do you want women to have? Do you want the government to sit on the sofa with them and hold their hand all the while you are saying that the government needs to stay out of YOUR life?
Its been said on here many times that Planned Parenthood works on a sliding scale in paying for contraception. If you cannot afford it, you get it free. Many other women’s center do the same thing. County health departments have programs to help get free contraception to people who need it. Many hospitals also support extensive programs in this department. How many more free programs do you want? or Does the government need to hold their hand and take them to the clinics to get their birth control. Again, all the while everyone screams the government is too intrusive on our personal lives.
Along with free contraception, PP, women’s center, county health departments and many hosptials have education classes/programs. The internet has extensive knowledge. PP website spells everything out in detail, too much detail sometimes. Don’t have a computer? The library does and you don’t need a library card for that. oh – and the library has an extensive list of books on the subject. Should the government put women in their cars and personnaly drive them to classes all the while we moan and groan that we are being taxed too much?
Why do you think new programs would work when perfectly good old programs don’t? Why don’t we actually hold people accountable when they take advantage of these programs? Why don’t we say that women and men should take responsiblity for their actions? If they want free BC, then they need to go get it, not just complain that they don’t have it and that the government needs to pay for their abortions. If they want free food and free housing then they need to go to the proper government departments and get it. If they are having sex and are unclear as to what will happen to them and are unsure about BC why don’t they educate themselves. This is called responsiblity.
It is rediculous to think that people are too stupid to do things for themselves. It is not the government responsibilty, nor my responsibiltiy to hold everyone’s hand because they don’t want to educate themselves.
Samantha you said : “it makes me wonder where God is…a hiatus in Fiji, maybe?”
God doesn’t hold our hands either. He gave us a brain, he gave us a conscience, he gave us the abiltiy to solve problems. It is not His fault if people refuse to use what He has given us.
Jill, I don’t condone abortion, especially as a means of population control. I think I”ve said this several times. I want to promote services that provides food, shelter, warmth and education, so that abortion is not needed.
I just can’t with good conscience make someone carry a baby to term if these services aren’t there to help her take care of it.
But then again, I can’t with good conscience condone abortion as the answer.
You see, I am sort of on the fence in this issue, but I hope to eventually make abortion illegal. I think many of my other posts address this. I think you want to project the image that I want to tell all of these poor people that abortion is the answer, that I want to exterminate the poor, etc etc. That image that you want to label me as is indicative that you would rather debate someone who is extreme and easier to label. I would rather you address the real issue here instead of trying to tell me what I think of the situation.
We do have tons of crisis pregnancy centers here where I live.I’m happy to report that there are about 8 adds in the phone book for these places.Only 2 for abortion clinics.1 closed last year.These places help needy parents with baby cribs,diapers,food,vouchers,etc.
Valerie,
My major concern is health care.
A friend, a microbiologist going to graduate school in public health, tells me that often poor people cannot get the tests they need if they are sick and uninsured and below the poverty line. To make up the difference they charge middle and upper class people higher for the tests they need.
The system saddens me. I hope that the poor can gain the services they need to raise a child with health problems or raise and take care of a pregnancy to ensure that the baby is nice and healthy.
But I am appreciative the crisis pregnancy centers. I think we are well on our way to alleviating the problem so abortions can be avoided.
The Harder Truth
I was surprsied by a couple comments to the Tiller post yesterday that for all the complaints against pro-lifers for showing graphic images of aborted babies, some of you have actually never seen abortion. Justice for All has made two…
There is a woman named Angela.She’s a pro-life nurse that stands in front of Hope abortion clinic.She offers free ultrasounds to the girls before they go into the clinic.She has had several “saves”If a woman decides to keep the child,Angela and her crew load them up with what they need.They even help the women with needs for their other children,if they have them.Angela made a small video of a woman that changed her mind.This woman was pregnant with triplets.The woman was so happy she didn’t abort.
I do understand where you’re coming from PIP.I really do.I was just kindof reading your post as well as Valeries and typing whatever came to mind. Kindof “lollygagging” as they say.
PIP –
First of all, that didn’t answer my question.
2nd – we DO, I will repeat, we DO have programs to help with health care for Mother AND Child. Proper tests can be done. What do you think medicare/medicaid does? We have a hospital here that will sign you up for these programs on the spot if you need care immediately. Your friend needs to do a bit more research. And don’t say Medicare/Medicaid doesn’t pay everything, my insurance didn’t even cover Catherines government mandated infant vaccines but they pay for birth control pills. Insurance is just as bad as Medicare/Medicade.
And if you have a child with health problems, once again, there are programs for that. A friend of mine had a son with a cleft lip. (I met them because their son and Danny are in the same government paid public funded class.) The family doesn’t have much money. He has had many surgeries. Had to have special bottles. Has to have speech therapy. They haven’t had to pay for any of this because they are on the poverty line.
There IS care for pregnant women. What else do you think PP, county health departments, women’s centers, and special hospital programs do?
“To make up the difference they charge middle and upper class people higher for the tests they need.”
How do you think the government will pay for public health care? (what is that called, I can’t think of it. Where everyone, everywhere has insurance paid for by the government.) They will tax the middle and upper class. Oh – and you think people don’t get proper tests now? See what happens if the government takes control of health care. My husbands Aunt had to come to America (she lives in Canada) to get treatment for Cancer because the Canandian government said she had to wait 6 months before she could get treatment.
PIP, 8:16a, said: “Jill, I don’t condone abortion, especially as a means of population control. I think I”ve said this several times…. I just can’t with good conscience make someone carry a baby to term if these services aren’t there to help her take care of it. But then again, I can’t with good conscience condone abortion as the answer. You see, I am sort of on the fence in this issue, but I hope to eventually make abortion illegal. I think many of my other posts address this. I think you want to project the image that I want to tell all of these poor people that abortion is the answer, that I want to exterminate the poor, etc etc. That image that you want to label me as is indicative that you would rather debate someone who is extreme and easier to label. I would rather you address the real issue here instead of trying to tell me what I think of the situation.
PIP, first, Valerie just posted two excellent comments to show there is no excuse for women to abort for reasons of poverty, and no excuse, actually for women to get pregnant, according to free love hawkers.
I appreciate that you’re on the fence. I’ve read your posts and sense your angst. I’m not trying to cut off debate by labeling you. All I’m doing is stripping down what you say and repeating it back to you.
My hope is you’ll conclude the solutions you’re testing are invalid.
PIP, I appreciate you as one of the real thinkers on this board.
To the People who Support Abortion on this Thread:
Please re-view the video. You are missing the point. Tiller is a criminal. Shouldn’t all criminals be prosecuted?
troy
Troy –
How can a crimminal be prosecuted when NOW, NAF, NARAL and ACLU will do anything so the public won’t see the truth behind this?
You’re so silly!
A woman’s right to autonomy is more important than going after 1 bad abortionist. You know that he is the only bad one right? It doesn’t matter that an attorny general and a judge who reviewed the evidence found reason to charge him. The judge who didn’t review the evidence and dropped the charges is the one in the right.
Now, remember, this is all to protect women’s rights. And this is what women have the right to. This is what a women’s choice equals.
Yes, I am angry and I am using sarcasm.
Troy,Is that you from OR? If so,you are the very best!!
“Shouldn’t all criminals be prosecuted?”
Yes. I think Tiller should be prosecuted, especially due to his incompetence. Just sad. That 911 call makes me so angry.
Jill and Valerie,
Thanks for understanding my position. I realize that there are many sources of help for women in need. I still think we can do better, especially for women with high-risk pregnancies.
Valerie, were you thinking of universal health care?
There are several kinds. The kind I advocate is where the government provides health insurance for everybody. I’m not a politician so my ideas may be different than what is feasible but here is my ideal:
The government provides a sliding scale of insurance with a variety of plans to suit each person’s need. People beneath the poverty line will therefore get free health insurance. I would also recommend a variety of ways to cut the cost of prescription drugs and drug treatments to be more affordable and help eliminate the power struggle between pharmeceutical companies and the people who need the drugs. I’ll tell you, if our family didn’t have insurance there would be no way that we could afford anti-seizure drugs (and subsequent side-effect drugs, like my folic acid and sleep aids) for three members of the family. The Lamictal alone would cost over $300 for one person per month. I can only imagine what kind of situation some people are in to not have health insurance and have to pay for medicine.
Let me know if this is not feasible, since I’m young and don’t have experience with these things. I think it is better to pay for universal insurance than to have the government pay for everything. But providing insurance will at least restore some balance, I think.
My friend has worked in health care for over 10 years, everywhere from blood bank to immunology to microbiology and he hopes that by going to grad school for public health he can help devise plans to restore balance. I look forward to his contribution.
“All I’m doing is stripping down what you say and repeating it back to you.”
Thank you, sometimes its hard to communicate how I feel about things. It’s like Valerie says, I can do the Chicken or the Egg thing all the time. In school they teach you how to think critically so I find myself agreeing with several positions that don’t really land me on either side. I find myself being choked up looking at these pictures but my brain tells me that society might not be ready yet. So difficult :/
mom, are you from Oregon? My dad’s family is from Oregon! Portland to be exact.
Troy,
How would you suggest that we get the authorities to prosecute this mad man?
Well the way they got Al Capone was for tax evasion. And he was a saint compared to this guy.
Any IRS auditors on this post?
PIP:
There is no honor in not choosing sides.
Be ye hot or cold and not lukewarm.
His Man –
I disagree with you on that.
There is no honor in being oblivious and not choosing sides.
There is great honor in admitting you have not made a decision and do the appropriate research to educate yourself.
PIP – or is it Al? – ;-)
“I still think we can do better, especially for women with high-risk pregnancies.”
My pregnancy with Catherine and 2 miscarriages before that were all high-risk. I’m not sure what else we can do? When I needed help, I got it. And here’s some food for thought. We dont’ need to do better, we need to better the programs that already exist. There is so much fraud and so many politians scratching their backsides and not doing anything. Creating new programs would take forever! But fixing a problem doesn’t take near as long. Look into this and you’ll see these programs are excellent. They just need some supervision.
“The kind I advocate is where the government provides health insurance for everybody”
Research the health care in the “nanny states”. Canada and Norway I think are two of them.
“The government provides a sliding scale of insurance with a variety of plans to suit each person’s need. People beneath the poverty line will therefore get free health insurance.”
This is actually being done in some states with different programs. In what is called ‘The First Step” program here they do the sliding scale. I had therapist coming to my house to work with Danny (occupational, physical, speech) and I paid $15 a visit. My friend I mentioned early didn’t have to pay anything. My OB/GYN who had premature twins paid $75 for each visit. It was really fair. And so far it has been working so hopefully we will be seeing this more and more in different programs. Which would be easier than doing it as a whole country for everything. When the individual programs are in charge fraud will be harder to do.
“I would also recommend a variety of ways to cut the cost of prescription drugs and drug treatments to be more affordable and help eliminate the power struggle between pharmeceutical companies and the people who need the drugs.”
I think everyone can agree to this. But to play devils advocate, where would the money to do research come from? Sure there can be some pay cuts for certain administration costs but that wouldn’t really be that much. Some pharmacutical companies are actually forming programs on their own for certain drugs to help people who can’t afford it. My friend got Welbutrin for free by going to the website and applying.
“My friend has worked in health care for over 10 years, everywhere from blood bank to immunology to microbiology and he hopes that by going to grad school for public health he can help devise plans to restore balance. ”
Good luck to him….
If you want to know how I know all of this stuff. My sister is a socail working/developmental therapist and works for aid to dependant children and the early head start program.
Keep thinking, keep asking questions, keep up your spirits and energy. You’d be amazed what can be accomplished.
Valerie I tend to agree with HisMan,
it is not only how Jesus split things, but I know many folk who purposely educate themselves to the Nth, specifically to ‘avoid’ making a decision … the ‘fence’ can be very comfortable .
Hi PIP,[chuckles] OR is Operation Rescue the pro life group.It took a minute for me to realize what I had written.Actually,I’m from Ohio.
“Look into this and you’ll see these programs are excellent. They just need some supervision.”
That sounds like a very good idea. So program reform? I’ll definately look into it.
“Which would be easier than doing it as a whole country for everything. When the individual programs are in charge fraud will be harder to do.”
So you are thinking, state-controlled sliding scale? Or just state supervised and program-controlled? I really like the idea of a sliding scale because the facilities won’t go bankrupt and the people will get the care they need.
“But to play devils advocate, where would the money to do research come from?”
Hm…I’m sure there are plenty of ways. Perhaps we can increase the use of generic drugs at the pharmacy by putting a shorter time limit on drug patents. That way the companies gain profit from the sale of their drugs (and with insurance become more affordable for the rest of us) but after that generic copies of the drug are allowed. I also think that it would cost less for consumers if doctors made the effort to prescribe drugs that are specifically available in generic form or prescribe them wisely (a few doctors I know will prescribe stuff willy nilly). I also think that grant money and things like that can be used as incentives, i.e. the companies that come out with beneficial drugs will recieve more grant money in the future. Just a few ideas.
“Some pharmacutical companies are actually forming programs on their own for certain drugs to help people who can’t afford it.”
That’s a good idea. It makes the companies seem less evil that way :P
“If you want to know how I know all of this stuff. My sister is a socail working/developmental therapist and works for aid to dependant children and the early head start program.”
Awesome. You are really knowledgable! Teach me the ways..
“the ‘fence’ can be very comfortable .”
I don’t find the fence very comfortable at all, John. Everybody disagrees with you when you are on the fence! You are likely to be hit or shot at just by being in the way! There are issues that are very clear cut for me. Sadly abortion is one of those issues that I feel I need to reflect and learn more about before I decide which “side” I’m on.
“Hi PIP,[chuckles] OR is Operation Rescue the pro life group.It took a minute for me to realize what I had written.Actually,I’m from Ohio.”
HA! My bad. I have a lot of buddies from Ohio. It seems like everyone here at SLU is either from the Chicago area or Ohio! I only know like 2 people who are from Oklahoma XP
PIP,I was amused!
“Perhaps we can increase the use of generic drugs at the pharmacy by putting a shorter time limit on drug patents.”
This is what I understand is the problem with this, but I could be wrong so don’t quote me on it! ;-)
It cost millions of dollars to make prozac with all the research and costs of materials, paying employees and paying utilites. When the patent was almost up, they were actually going to lose money because it had not paid for itself yet. When you go to generic then other companies get in the act and they get money from the other companies hard work. That is why the company petitioned to have the patent extended. If they lose money then it takes away from other research. I’m not sure but doesn’t the governent already give grants to them? However, I do agree that using generics is a better way to do it.
“So you are thinking, state-controlled sliding scale? Or just state supervised and program-controlled? ”
A state supervised, program controlled programs is what I would think. Keep everything in state without federal getting involved would save money I think. Especially when you consider that not every state needs the same thing depending on population.
“Everybody disagrees with you when you are on the fence! ”
I agree that being on the fence is difficult expecially when you are looking down and seeing what is on either side. It’s when you are looking up and not seeing what is in front of you that it is comfortable.
Hey Mom – I was born a Buckeye! Columbus. Still have most of my family there. However, I now claim the Hoosier status. ;-)
Mm…maybe the patents can be situated so it the company can gain enough profits to continue. I think the government does give grants but maybe the incentive would be to grant more money when companies make more beneficial drugs. I can’t really say for sure though, I’d probably have to get a better idea of the problems and the status quo to give a real answer!
” Keep everything in state without federal getting involved would save money I think. Especially when you consider that not every state needs the same thing depending on population.”
That is a great idea. Each state is different and keeping them responsible is better for both ends.
Valerie,do you still live in Ohio?
Valerie:
Don’t argue with me, argue with God:
2 Corinthians 6:2
For he says, “In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you.” [ Isaiah 49:8] I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation.
Matthew 12:30
“He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.
Revelation 3:16
So, because you are lukewarm
So I’m getting: two cases. Christin Gilbert and this other case where he shot digitalis into the side of the head instead of the heart, back in 1993?
Because if that’s all there is against him, it isn’t very much.
Sorry, that’s digoxin, not digitalis.
HisMan, I think God would rather me wait until I made a fully informed decision than just randomly pick a side without reason. Only a fool would not see the difference between choosing carefully and choosing for no reason. After all, when you look at theologians and their interpretation of the Bible, most of them advocate a moderate life. I know you would rather me be a hateful far-right or a licentious far-left but most people are in-between. Let me make my decision for myself.
Mom
“Valerie,do you still live in Ohio?”
No, Indiana now. I did live in Cincinnati for 2 1/2 years when I got out of college and loved it. I wouldn’t mind going back.
(sorry reply is so late, been busy, hope you get this!)