First things first
A guest columnist in yesterday’s Times-Mail acknowledged global warming but said abortion eclipses it and may have snuffed its problem solvers. Same for Social Security.
Christ Hospital was used to demonstrate abortion’s worst example. On that topic, some of you may not have seen the photos I took of the Comfort Room. All can be clicked for enlarged view.
I believe what Gore is presenting…. Indeed, the climate has been shifting and altering and, of course, we are responsible….
But I believe there is a bigger issue afflicting us. I believe the cause of protecting our environment is looming for this generation. I also believe that until we understand the socio-economic affect of abortion on our society, we will be unable to solve our environmental problems.
Simply put, we have probably destroyed those that could have pulled us out of this dilemma. So many things in our economy banked on the 40 million people who have been eradicated. Our Social Security system was based on succeeding generations supporting the current elderly population. What looked good on paper in the 1930s, diminished greatly at the dawn of abortion rights….
I find it heart wrenching to think of polar bears drowning in a melting polar ice cap. I find it admirable that men of substance find this motivating.
But where is the weeping for the human lives abandoned to laundry room clutter ’til their new lives ebb?
Incidences of stories like this have been documented across our country, the most newsworthy having taken place at Christ Hospital in Chicago when nurse Jill Stanek observed the standard procedure for babies who survive the abortion procedure.
The administration of that hospital remedied that situation, however. No longer will women have to wonder what has happened to their aborted infants, the ones who had the tenacity to be alive after the heinous procedure. No, the kind-hearted administration of that particular hospital has allowed a room set aside for the mourning of these infants who do not make it to the trash can in pieces. There is a rocker, a camera for those first/final photos, comfortable chairs and refreshments for those who are having a difficult time accepting their choice.
I would venture to bet that some of these gentlemen and women of that hospital hierarchy are members of PETA and would fight to the death for the protection of an endangered species….
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Right. I’m an RN who has worked in many hospitals in many states. Why are you lying like this? If your hospital is doing what you claim, why haven’t you notified the medical board?……. the state agency that regulates hospitals? or the POLICE?……. what you claim is illegal and clearly you are a liar.
When are you anti-abortion fanatics going to grow up and stop trying to take away a woman’s right to choose because YOU don’t approve…….. when are you going to stop lying about abortions?
Never I guess because if you believed in TRUTH, you’d be pro-choice.
Mizzy, you’re a little late on the scene.
I no longer work at the hospital. Was fired 6 years ago.
We notified the Attorney General of IL. He said it wasn’t illegal.
A bill called the Born Alive Infant Protection Act was presented in both IL and on the national level to try to stop the practice, which it has not.
So your support of “choice” includes infanticide.
And you call me the fanatic.
Jill, I think the research established that abortion hasn’t significantly reduced the number of children women are having, just delayed the age which they have them. I can’t find the link right now, but I clearly remember reading this finding recently.
Right. I’m an RN who has worked in many hospitals in many states. Why are you lying like this? If your hospital is doing what you claim, why haven’t you notified the medical board?……. the state agency that regulates hospitals? or the POLICE?……. what you claim is illegal and clearly you are a liar.
When are you anti-abortion fanatics going to grow up and stop trying to take away a woman’s right to choose because YOU don’t approve…….. when are you going to stop lying about abortions?
Never I guess because if you believed in TRUTH, you’d be pro-choice.
Andrea, first of all, welcome!
Do you remember me? I haven’t “seen” you for a while, not since years ago at the Sheck forums. How have you been? I’ve missed you.
Secondly, about this story, this was years ago…You can read Jill’s testimony that she shared back then here:
http://www.priestsforlife.org/testimony/jillstanektestimony.htm
She was one behind the Born Alive Infant Protection act, which was signed into law to protect babies who have been killed in this horrific way.
She was also featured on the O’Reilly Factor in September of 2000, regarding this situation…I’m trying to get the video uploaded to Youtube soon so everyone can watch that.
And more about the Born Alive Infants Protection act here:
http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/judiciary/hju67226.000/hju67226_0.HTM
Oops, forgot the congressional testimony of Jill Stanek and Alison Baker on this subject:
http://www.priestsforlife.org/testimony/stanekbakercongress.htm
Andrea, is it any wonder that the truth scares you? How dare you ACCUSE Jill of lying about this! What kind of a nurse are you?
It never did cease to amaze me that I worked with nurses who’d had abortions. My mom’s friend had a female doctor who told her about her abortion. She told her that her husband “made” her do it. It’s messed up. You are supposed to respect life when you are in the medical profession.
Jill,
It’s incredible how self-righteous some of these guys can sound when they haven’t even read what they are rebutting…for heavens sake, your bio is right there!
“A bill called the Born Alive Infant Protection Act was presented in both IL and on the national level to try to stop the practice, which it hast not.”
this is still going on? aborted alive and left to die?
Jill was on the Oreilly factor? wow, neat. I do watch c-span sometimes and I believe I vagely remember her testimony….
Jill, when were you on?
It is scary that a respected columnist can even for a second consider comparing global warming and abortion. Global warming is a world-wide catastrophe. If we do not save the earth, we will loose everything.
How one can even attempt to blame abortion for global warming (and then go on to blame abortion for our Social Security problems) is mindblowing. No one’s future is set, especially not when one is a fetus in a womb. Could any of those aborted fetuses have potentially contributed to solving global warming? Probably. Could they also have potentially contributed to rates of crime and have been burdens to society? Yes they could have.
The problem is not that the world has a declining population (yes, I know that many European countries have birth rates that are too low for the country not to die out…look at the developing world). The problem is that the human population of the planet is exploding. There won’t be enough of everything for everybody. Eventually, the masses of humanity will become so large that the planet cannot sustain us. Of course, that time will come much sooner if we continue to act as though the planet exists solely for our pleasure.
I cannot imagine any doctor agreeing to perform this procedure. My sister in law only looks for pro life physicians. She wants nothing to do with any doctor who performs/agrees with abortion. They are monsters!
And abortion is a world wide catastrophe……..
“And abortion is a world wide catastrophe……..”
That is a matter of opinion. Since I support abortion rights, I do not agree.
In any case, I cannot believe that one would think that abortion is a bigger problem than global warming unless that person had their head in the sand and refused to acknowledge any of the facts related to either matter.
Enigma,
Of course, that time will come much sooner if we continue to act as though the planet exists solely for our pleasure.
You mean like having indiscriminate sex and then taking no responsibility for the life that is created.
You’re kidding right? You are the ones that act like the planet and everything else exists solely for your pleasure!
If we do not save the earth, we will loose everything.
The day we decided that human life was expendable according to our selfish whims is the day we lost everything…January 22, 1973!
How one can even attempt to ignore over a billion senseless deaths a year worldwide is what is mind-blowing! How one can rationalize killing human beings for their own personal comfort is mind-blowing! How people can live in such a state of denial that they actually believe these little people are not really human persons is mind-blowing! How someone could think that the “possiblility” of global warming someday might effect the earth is more important than the slaughter of billions of people RIGHT NOW, is mind-blowing!
Just sayin…
MK,
Great post!!!
“You mean like having indiscriminate sex and then taking no responsibility for the life that is created.”
Actually no, that is not what I meant at all. I mean doing things like indiscriminatingly polluting the earth and acting like nothing on the planet matters except for humanity.
“You’re kidding right? You are the ones that act like the planet and everything else exists solely for your pleasure!”
For starters, you are implying that people who support abortion rights always go out and have indiscriminate sex and believe neither sex nor any possible consequences of engaging in sex are meaningless and exist only for pleasure. Neither of those are true.
“The day we decided that human life was expendable according to our selfish whims is the day we lost everything…January 22, 1973!”
I think not. If human life is so sacred, why do we still go to war? Why do people drive in cars knowing that they can get in an accident? Why do developed countries turn a blind eye to the suffering of the poor overseas? Why isn’t more done to preserve this human life?
“How one can even attempt to ignore over a billion senseless deaths a year worldwide is what is mind-blowing!”
To even state this position, one is relying upon a number of assumptions that may not be shared by other individuals. One has to believe that aborted fetus are, in fact, human individuals that have the capacity to die. Since I do not believe that a fetus is a human individual until the brain has reached a certain level of development, I do not share your belief.
“How people can live in such a state of denial that they actually believe these little people are not really human persons is mind-blowing!”
Once again, to state this one is relying on one’s own personal assumptions. Just because one holds a belief does not make that belief true or universal.
“How someone could think that the “possiblility” of global warming someday might effect the earth is more important than the slaughter of billions of people RIGHT NOW, is mind-blowing!”
It’s much more than a possibility. It’s a reality. It’s a problem right now and if we don’t do anything about it right now we won’t be able to do anything about it because it will be too late.
“The day we decided that human life was expendable according to our selfish whims is the day we lost everything…January 22, 1973!”
Amen, MK!!
It’s crazy, MK, it really is. And you know, they want us to believe *by faith alone* that their doomsday global warming theories and evolution are absolutely true, but then they won’t let us believe the evidence of an intelligent design on this earth, without demanding tangible proof.
We did lose everything on January 22, 1973. We legalized the murder of innocent children. This country went to pot.
For starters, you are implying that people who support abortion rights always go out and have indiscriminate sex and believe neither sex nor any possible consequences of engaging in sex are meaningless and exist only for pleasure. Neither of those are true.
The vast majority of them support this type of lifestyle, and do not care about the ramifications of such a lifestyle, do they?
I think not. If human life is so sacred, why do we still go to war? Why do people drive in cars knowing that they can get in an accident? Why do developed countries turn a blind eye to the suffering of the poor overseas? Why isn’t more done to preserve this human life?
1.) Because, not everyone believes that life is sacred, and there are evil people in this world who start wars, and who must be fought against many times to save innocent human life. Yes, sometimes there are casualties, which is definitely tragic, but I do not see any other option, except letting the enemy take over and destroy even more innocent life, do you? If a country is threatening my country, and my family, why should I not desire to protect them?
2.) Because most people aren’t driving cars with the intent of killing themselves. Accidents happen by doing anything, even eating. Should we stop eating?
3.) I don’t believe that they are!
4.) Why don’t you answer that? It is the people who do not hold life as sacred who do not do more to protect human life.
To even state this position, one is relying upon a number of assumptions that may not be shared by other individuals. One has to believe that aborted fetus are, in fact, human individuals that have the capacity to die. Since I do not believe that a fetus is a human individual until the brain has reached a certain level of development, I do not share your belief.
Well, to even state your position of “global warming doomsday”, you are relying on a number of assumptions that may not be shared by other individuals. One has to believe that the planet depends on us to exist, and one has to assume that the planet cannot possibly take care of itself, and one has to assume that there is not enough room or resources to take care of billions upon billions of people. I happen to believe otherwise. Since I do not believe that the earth is not capable of handling humans or providing necessary resources for us to thrive on, then I do not share your belief.
Once again, to state this one is relying on one’s own personal assumptions. Just because one holds a belief does not make that belief true or universal.
As can be said to you about global warming and evolution.
It’s much more than a possibility. It’s a reality.
No, it’s not. It’s a theory.
It’s a problem right now and if we don’t do anything about it right now we won’t be able to do anything about it because it will be too late.
I don’t share your beliefs.
Well said, Bethany!
*peeks* Hi! Did I cause trouble? Cause I didn’t mean to.
Neither do I!
Erin, ya betta get back hea!
Erin, come back! :) We like you!
*grins* Well, just to stir things up, maybe the liberals are so busy ‘spreading the love’ that they don’t have time to go off to war, and you know, kill thousands of people in the name of freedom but for the sake of that same nasty stuff that pollutes the environment ;-)
Heather, you know, it’s funny cause the very people who supposedly believe in global warming and promote this whole scare about it, are people like Al Gore, John Travola, and Barbara streisand…don’t they all live in mansions? I think John Travolta owns 5 private jets?
My mom’s friend had a female doctor who told her about her abortion. She told her that her husband “made” her do it. It’s messed up.
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Simone: My best friend’s sister’s boyfriend’s brother’s girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who’s going with the girl who saw Ferris pass out at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it’s pretty serious.
Bethany, he does own several private jets.
Some of these celebs are the most messed up people on the planet. I can’t understand how THEY can promote abortion. With all the money they have. It’s sad. I applaud celebrities for adopting.
Laura, what??
Bethany, what is the Sheck Forum? I tried to find it in my search engine, and I wasn’t able. Does it still exist?
Laura, I figured that you were in your 20’s. You are 40 something? You act 12. Grow the fudge up! Also, spare me the details about Bat Boy and Britney.
No, Heather, it doesn’t exist anymore. It was back in 2001 and 2002 that I posted there, I believe. There is still a forum site, but though there are lots of debate topics, interestingly, there is no abortion debate anymore!
http://www.sheck.com/forums
Laura, The doctor confided in my mom’s friend, because she knew she was a good Christian. What’s wrong with that? Oh, I forgot. In your world, women who regret abortions are “bat cakes” and they have “issues” I retract my apologies to you. You are a colossal jerk, and you act like a guy!
Thirty years ago the world was supposedly on the verge of an ice age.
Forty years ago we were supposedly on the verge of imminent doom because of alleged overpopulation.
Global warming may be taking place but the notion that the human race is going to affect the climate is laughable. Climate is so incredibly complex and beyond our understanding that computer models can’t even be made. Also, there is no consensus among scientists and experts in the areas of climate. Weather forecasters can’t accurately predict rainstorms but we know what weather conditions and climate will be like 50-100 years from now? I sure wish they would apply these prophetic powers to accurately predicting the weather for the rest of the week. Ever hear of volcanoes which are perpetually spewing pollution into the atmosphere? You want to eliminate carbon dioxide from the atmostphere? Quit breathing. Exactly what do you think you expel when you exhale up to 24 times a minute? Cows are emitting too much methane? Heck, the planet survived the dinosaurs didn’t it and you can just imagine the methane they emitted on a regular basis. And why pick on cows? Quite honestly, my rabbit would have put any cow to shame in that department. What about elephants for heaven’s sakes.
Those Hollywood morons. Sheryl Crow and her one sheet of toilet paper. Why not just go back to corncobs? Barbra Streisand and her preaching to the common folk about using clotheslines. This from someone who hasn’t done a load of wash in 40 years. Sure Barbra, when your undergarments are flapping in the breezes of Malibu, mine will be flapping in the breezes as well. The Hollywood idea of mass transit is 5 people in a stretch limo. Well at least they are doing what they do best, provide entertainment.
Of course these good people buy carbon credits. PT Barnum said there’s a sucker born every minute and these new carbon credit companies are starting up to prove him correct. One company is planting trees in Uganda, and clashing with destitute Ugandan farmers who desperately need the land the rich are using to salve their consciences.
Actually, if you want to cool down the planet then dump all the pollution in the air you can. This will block out the sun and cool things off. This might explain some of the mini ice ages that have occured over the centuries when volcanoes spewed their pollution into the atmosphere after major eruptions.
The climate has changed time and again over the centuries and will continue to and there’s not one thing we can do to stop or change it. Oh sure, they can hold their concerts and special meetings, but were’t a few of these cancelled because of cold weather and snow?
I’ll Leave Andrea in much more capable hands than mine … {but I do hope she has enough wits to duck!}
@Doug – last week I told you that there was a way out of the Cartesian-box … so here it is,
Some points to remember – 1) this Catesian way of observation of reality IS very powerful and many people are here.
2) it is a defensive posture – the outside world is ‘outside’. There is no ‘superiority’ involved. A person in our modern world is very fortunate, if they have managed to avoid this completely.
3) There is absolutely no proof that the Cartesian-box exists or that this works for you. If it does work, enjoy the freedom, please! You will be one of the first ones to attempt it!
4) This method is somewhat unusual. I am a wee bit mathematically inclined: to solve a very difficult puzzle, I’d often look up the answer and often the ‘answer’ yielded enough of a clue as to how I should proceed to ‘solve the problem’. In retrospect much of what I’ve done here is very similar to that.
The motive for wanting out of my ‘box’ was that I knew it too well and I was dying inside … and I did not want to die! The key then to change this outlook was to live a free life. So how does a person become free? … with laws, and rules and a seemingly hostile environment …. How to, how to … ???
Understand what free means … not just the dictionary stuff about ‘choosing’, but how do humans experience freedom … watching an eagle soar, a good belly-laugh; weeping intensely at perverse injustice; reading to overcome ignorance; sailing ; a quiet vacation hike; seeing majestic mountains; riding out a hurricane … etc, etc. Then I realized the concept of ‘choice’ (the dictionary view) had a very little grasp of what my experience of freedom was.
At roughly the same time, I started to understand that one of the key aspects of love is one-ness. [Every expression we have re. affection involves this whether it be a kiss, a hug, a handshake, we ‘touch’ someone, sexual intercourse, etc, etc] Could these two fit together – freedom and love? On-the-surface there is no way, especially if one enjoys the Cartesian-box life. But these two do indeed fit, but a person must be willing to change notions of what ‘freedom’ means. How about ‘freedom is: an extension of being’? With such an understanding even the concept of choice is freed.
By becoming-one with/in another (love) a human truly becomes ‘the other’. So such an extension to the world of things (see below), transforms our concepts of ………… there are just too many! Such an extension to another (limited) human being, a person becomes freer in marriage [the two become one] … and children are not burdens-to-stifle-self-expression but opportunities to embrace and enter into a life that is not me.
[[ FOR STILL MORE ]] there comes a time when an urge beckons a person yet deeper. Same process, but this time the target is God – by definition both unlimited and Himself free. To extend ourselves to Him is the ultimate in ‘freedom’; if He extends Himself to you, this is liberation – not here myself but have only read about it!
And very little (almost none of it), is in the least bit verifiable. Does such need to be? The Cartesian box is only a ‘bad’ memory and has little to do with shaping perspective!
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This is a very simple exercise but for me was highly transformational :::
Lie on a carpeted floor without a pillow and no music/sound – be quiet. Lie on your back; legs together and arms tucked next to your body. Within a very short while certain areas will become very painful. Right at these points, picture your body slowly descending into the floor … eventually, it will feel like your pain is a tether to hold you. You will release this too … and just float … for me at least my mind did a ‘flip’ and I became very much more aware of what a pure gift living is. Believe me, you will not snooze, if you have no comfort like a pillow.
I always wondered what it would be like to perform such a ritual within marriage. My brother (moved by my experience), could not even fathom what this would do inside marriage. I am not married and so have not tried this here: so caution … it will uncover all kinds of stuff. [This is not for a dilettante.]
I don’t understand how any mother could do this.
Jasper, 9:16a: Yes, live birth abortions are still being committed. There are many ready examples: Baby Rowan, the Hialeah baby, the babies at Morristown Hospital in NJ, Loyola Hospital, Providence Health Care Systems, and of course, Christ Hospital.
Jasper, Heather: Yes, I was on O’Reilly in September 2000. He replayed our interview as one of his five highlights of the year that December. As Bethany said, she’s in the process of getting it up on YouTube (thank you, Bethany!). She’s working on converting files. When it’s good to go, I’ll post it here.
Enigma, 9:21a, said: “The problem is that the human population of the planet is exploding. There won’t be enough of everything for everybody. Eventually, the masses of humanity will become so large that the planet cannot sustain us.”
Prove it. That’s not true. The reason for poverty and hunger is related directly to corrupt governments, not a lack of resources. Have you flown much lately?
Actually, the population is exploding. But problems aren’t going to come from hunger or anything like that. It’ll be a plague. That’s what happens when there’s too many people. Last time it happened was the 1918 influenza epidemic. I think the estimated death toll is around 50 million people world wide. And no, AIDS isn’t that kind of epidemic. It’ll probably be flu-like in origin, spread through the air or through contact with animals or insects. (Compared with AIDS, the Spanish flu killed about 25 million in 25 weeks. It took AIDS 25 years to hit that kind of death toll). I’m not saying there’s anything we can really do about it, just that that’s what happens when we start to get overcrowded. It’s inevitable.
YAY, Erin has entered the building!!!! *jumps for joy!*
Why do developed countries turn a blind eye to the suffering of the poor overseas? Why isn’t more done to preserve this human life?
Because it’s a culture of death…don’t you read the newspapers…
“A nation that can kill it’s own children is a nation without hope” JohnPaul II
“America needs no words from me to see how your decision in Roe v. Wade has deformed a great nation. The so-called right to abortion has pitted mothers against their children and women against men. It has sown violence and discord at the heart of the most intimate human relationships. It has aggravated the derogation of the father’s role in an increasingly fatherless society. It has portrayed the greatest of gifts — a child — as a competitor, an intrusion, and an inconvenience. It has nominally accorded mothers unfettered dominion over the independent lives of their physically dependent sons and daughters”
And, in granting this unconscionable power, it has exposed many women to unjust and selfish demands from their husbands or other sexual partners. Human rights are not a privilege conferred by government. They are every human being’s entitlement by virtue of his humanity. The right to life does not depend, and must not be declared to be contingent, on the pleasure of anyone else, not even a parent or a sovereign.” Mother Theresa
“But I feel that the greatest destroyer of peace today is abortion, because it is a war against the child – a direct killing of the innocent child – murder by the mother herself. And if we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another?”
Mother Theresa
“It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish.” Mother Theresa
MK, I love those sayings!! So true!
One has to believe that aborted fetus are, in fact, human individuals that have the capacity to die. Since I do not believe that a fetus is a human individual until the brain has reached a certain level of development, I do not share your belief.
Well there you go…the state of denial.
By the way, at which moment does this ficticious non person suddenly become “a full fledged human individual”…what, day 21 he’s not a person…day 21 1/2 – BINGO! – Houston we have the right level of brain development?
Psssst…the truth doesn’t require your consent. Whether or not you believe it to be true, has no bearing on whether or not it is true. You just don’t have that much power…just sayin’
Erin, actually I think the Spanish Flu was caused by Vaccinations. Yet another reason I choose not to vaccinate my children. But not trying to start a debate about vaccinations…it just happens to be brought up! LOL
http://www.mercola.com/2003/may/31/spanish_flu.htm
It’s much more than a possibility. It’s a reality.
One has to believe that aborted fetus are, in fact, human individuals that have the capacity to die. Since I do not believe that a fetus is a human individual until the brain has reached a certain level of development, I do not share your belief.
I think you’re a little confused in the science and fact department.
Well, just to stir things up, maybe the liberals are so busy ‘spreading the love’
Well maybe if they quit spreading the love so freely we wouldn’t need to abort the results?
Heh…what about the Black plague, Bethany, that cut the population of Europe in half when people started being forced to live beyond their means? Or the yellow fever epidemic of 1793? Plague is a response by nature to us, generally. It’s how it talks to us. Just like we prevent deer from overpopulating by hunting, nature kind of does the same thing to us. Might seem warped, but nature’s never been the nicest. She probably gets mad when we dump sewage in her rivers, or destroy things that could eventually cure cancer when we demolish rainforests. You know. Stuff like that ;-)
It is an interesting theory about vaccinations though, though I will note that vaccines in the early 20th century were much less developed than ours are today.
There
Well maybe if they quit spreading the love so freely we wouldn’t need to abort the results?
LOL!
The simple fact that a fetus has the potential to become a child does not mean that it itself is a child.
Neither does it mean that it’s NOT a child..
Some people believe that sex is a sacred communion that should occur only within the bonds of marriage. Other people believe that sex can occur outside of marriage but that it should represent something of the bond they share with their partner. Other people believe that sex is meaningless and only care about the pleasure which it can bring.
The first one leads to intact families, where the parents stay married and the children stay alive.
The second one leads to broken families, broken hearts and broken promises.
The third one leads to broken bodies.
That’s why number two and number three are inherently wrong.
Enigma,
Please. Volcanoes have been spewing pollutants into the atmosphere since creation and still do. Major eruptions resulted in “mini ice ages” throughout the centuries. Man couldn’t match that if he tried. Certainly we inject carbon dioxide into the air. Every living thing, man and animal, has done that since creation just by breathing. 30 years ago we were supposedly entering an ice age!
Do we think the way our ancestors lived was so pristine? wood(which required cutting down trees) and dung fires for warmth and cooking, no sanitation resulting in polluted water, they didn’t drive vehicles instead they rode horses and donkeys, who left momentos that drew flies and disease, and certainly stunk, and yes, expelled methane. Climate changes occured back then too, no doubt brought on by breathing. There was a warming trend in Europe, about which everyone was overjoyed. The climate was so warm and mild that wine grapes were being grown in England and agriculture thrived. This was followed by a “mini ice age”, the result of a volcanic eruption.
Heh…what about the Black plague, Bethany, that cut the population of Europe in half when people started being forced to live beyond their means? Or the yellow fever epidemic of 1793? Plague is a response by nature to us, generally. It’s how it talks to us. Just like we prevent deer from overpopulating by hunting, nature kind of does the same thing to us. Might seem warped, but nature’s never been the nicest. She probably gets mad when we dump sewage in her rivers, or destroy things that could eventually cure cancer when we demolish rainforests. You know. Stuff like that ;-)
Honestly, I don’t know. But I doubt seriously that it was simply a result of lots of people being born. I am definite there were other factors involved. I’d just have to research a bit. But even if it were due to population explosions, then this is a good reason not to worry about overpopulation…because the earth seems to do a good job of naturally weeding people out all by itself, correct? We don’t need to help nature out, in my opinion.
It is an interesting theory about vaccinations though, though I will note that vaccines in the early 20th century were much less developed than ours are today.
Yeah, but I still don’t trust them. That’s just me though. I know everyone’s got their own ideas about it. :)
Abortion is a terrible thing and no woman should ever have to make that choice.
Abortion is a terrible thing and no woman should ever have that choice to make.
Bethany- I wasn’t suggesting that it really needed our help. I was pointing out that neither Jill nor Enigma were really on target. It’s true that we have more than enough food to support the world’s population. It’s also true that the population continues to grow exponentially. Population grows, eventually, plague happens. It’s not just the population, of course, but the things that come with a growing population- more crowding, which leads to less access to healthcare and other basic necessities, stratifies the lower classes, and then usually the decrease in basic hygiene because of lack of resources provides the breeding ground. *shrug* I’m leaving out the complex stuff, but that’s pretty much it. I’m not worried about stopping it so much because it’s always happened. It’s just what keeps us in line.
I have seen a few people post that the world’s population is exploding. The U.S. Census Bureau reports that even though the population of the world is growing, the growth rate is declining. It is currently at 1.16% but by 2049 the USCB is saying it will be down to .49%. So please stop saying we are experiencing a population explosion because that is just not true.
Give or take a billion…that are being killed by abortion.
MK, 2:30p: Brilliant.
Erin, I’m so happy you stayed! Ok, back to the debate. Of course natural catastrophes like plagues or tsunamis lighten the human load. I obviously don’t know the mind of God, so I can’t speculate why. But the key here is that we don’t initiate the catastrophes or human load lightening.
Erin and Bethany
The plague was the result of fleas spreading disease from rats to humans. I believe the rats and their fleas were transported from Asia during trade. There was certainly not the sanitation or cleanliness we take for granted today, so rats running around your home and street and fleas infesting humans and their clothing was not unheard of. In fact, it was pretty much the norm. Also, there was no knowledge of what caused disease or what spread it, and certainly no way to cure it. It was largely viewed as some kind of Divine retribution. People were often malnourished and sickly as well. People seldom died of old age and having several children just to make sure any survived was a necessity.
Under these circumstances its been easy throughout history for plagues to strike and decimate populations. I doubt it has much to do with nature getting back at us, I think its just a natural course of events. An infecting agent is introduced in the right conditions to a suseptible population that is ignorant and powerless against it.
AIDS was rampant before it was finally determined exactly what was going on. Some people did claim this was nature getting back at a certain segment of our population. I am NOT going there.
OK, great…….will this lead me to the message board?
I don’t believe this tale because I’ve worked in enough hospitals to know that there are strict rules and regulations (via EPA and state standards) as to the disposal of bio-hazard tissue. I also do not believe that these feti were born alive……. your side contradicts itself when you claim that “partial birth abortions” suck out brains………. how can the fetus live with the brains sucked out?…….
I know the average anti-choicer SOUNDS like s/he has had brains sucked out……..but a non viable fetus isn’t going to live under those circumstances……..in fact, it isn’t going to live once it leaves the uterus.
Not feti. Babies!
MK, 2:30p: Brilliant.
Thank you Jill. I kind of like 2:33 myself…
OK, great…….will this lead me to the message board?
I don’t believe this tale because I’ve worked in enough hospitals to know that there are strict rules and regulations (via EPA and state standards) as to the disposal of bio-hazard tissue. I also do not believe that these feti were born alive……. your side contradicts itself when you claim that “partial birth abortions” suck out brains………. how can the fetus live with the brains sucked out?…….
I know the average anti-choicer SOUNDS like s/he has had brains sucked out……..but a non viable fetus isn’t going to live under those circumstances……..in fact, it isn’t going to live once it leaves the uterus.
Andrea, these babies at the Christ Hospital in Illinois where Jill discovered this, were not aborted by PBA method. They were induced and born prematurely…then left to die. Most were in the second trimester and many were in the third when this was happening. Some lived for 1-2 hours, some lived as much as 8 hours before expiring.
Jill helplessly held one of those live aborted babies in her hands, rocking him as he slowly died for 45 minutes…which is what started her in this activism in the first place. Please try to empathize with what she must have gone through that day.
Andra,
Seriously, do you know anything about abortion.
Question: Are there times when you don
Marykay, that testimony disgusts me every time I read it. Ugh!
The reason abortionists objected to the ban on partial birth abortion is that they can’t control how large the cervix will get or how quickly it will open. So there is a chance that the baby will slip out alive. You used to have to kill the baby before the head was delivered. But now you must kill it before the navel is exposed. Instead of sucking it’s brains out, you simply dismember it.
Many, many, many babies were born before the doctor had a chance to puncture it’s skull and suck it’s brains out.
What do you think? They just ask the child to die quietly and it complies. It’s an ungly, brutal business. (I emphasize “business”). You only have to look at the pictures to understand that these are human beings and not fairy tale creatures.
You need to do your homework before you go around calling people liars…
Hi andrea,
has it ever occurred to you that PERHAPS/MAYBE a baby’s brains were sucked out – to GUARANTEE a DEAD BABY! what happened to these babies before that being done (as protocol or as preferred procedure)? was Jill a personal-witness to this?
how come you do not show any indignation over the abortion barbarism? does it really matter that a baby dies of neglect or that its brains are sucked out. These wonderful medical people find a way, to make positive you will have one dead baby … viability be damned! [The aborting woman will get what she wants.]
John My Honey,
Did you get my email about Blessed Margaret of Castello?
nope MK … SORRY!
Is my earlier post OK … the one about the Cartesian-box?
John,
It was great…unfortunately Doug wasn’t around to read it. It sounds an awful lot like what I’m always harpin’ about on Theology of the Body. Opening yourself up so completely to someone, be it God or spouse, friend or child, that the two become one. And your will becomes their will…
And don’t kid yourself…God has been reaching out to you for a long, long time. Sometimes his touch is just so gentle you don’t feel it. Like the whisper of an owls wings.
I’ll resend the email…
@MK,
just didn’t know if anyone read it. Few people will just dive in, so it allows people time to
heal and move forward … if they understand it.
It is always frightening to hear the strident words of pro-choicers when they post here. Their tough words/demeanor is meant to frighten us into submission. I’m not so scared of them as I am of the rigidity of their stance. Isn’t any one of the other side just normal folk who bleed when cut? Don’t they wish to be human or is Superwoman the image to duplicate?
John,
I’m with you pal. It’s like they have lost the very thing that makes them human…I don’t know. What’s scary is how very normal they can appear on the outside. But something must be terribly amiss with the gray matter to be able to rationalize the elimination of life for convenience sake…Thank God He is merciful.
Enigma,
For once, I want to actually know what people who disagree with me say and what their reasons are. There is a human tendency to demonize one
Enigma,
Enigma,
Please address the issue of volcanoes that have been spouting for as long as the earth is old. Why have we had climatic changes over the centuries? 30 years ago we were supposedly entering the ice age. There is NO consensus of opinion among scientists and climatologists on the subject of global warming, you’re only hearing the one side who get all the media attention. You mention a warm winter in Massachussetts. Enigma, I will not tell you the number of winters I’ve seen, but I have seen plenty of very warm ones, followed by very brutally cold ones. In fact, I have seen great variations in all the seasons over the years. This is nothing new. Back then we never thought anything of it. You may also want to check the scientific credentials of politicians and Hollywood hobnobs. Why on earth do we even listen to these people?
Also, ask why weather forcasters can’t give you an accurate weather prediction for the weekend but glabal warming fanatics can predict the climate and weather 50 years from now.
Enigma, I agree with MK….you have been an outstanding debater. Thank you for that.
So what are fossils? Why are the polar ice caps melting? Why did it feel like the middle of summer in December in Massachusetts?
I don’t understand why any of these things could possibly mean that the world is being destroyed?
That is a legitimate criticism. For me, it?s a matter of evidence. There is concrete evidence of evolution. It?s real and one can either deny it or accept it but the simple fact of the matter is that the evidence exists.
But there is evidence of an intelligent designer as well. It’s real, and one can either deny it or accept it, but the simple fact of the matter is that evidence exists that we were created by an intelligent designer. I am not talking about a religion…Intelligent design isn’t even a religion. I am talking about an alternate explanation of how the world came to be.
To me faith means that there is no concrete evidence.
By concrete evidence do you mean proof? And if so, can you share with me some proofs of evolution?
It?s all based on interpretation and how one views the world.
Actually, I don?t even believe that something that is supported by evidence can be taken on faith.If it taken on faith alone, there should be nothing but belief.
My belief in God is taken on by faith alone, but I can also see evidence of His creation and design…there’s no way for me not to see this.
Intelligent design also implies a higher creator. By definition, that is religion.
It’s not a religion, it is simply an explanation of how the world came to be. One can believe that a higher power exists, without knowing who that power is, or even worshiping it.
According to Websters New World Dictionary, religion is defined as: “”any specific system of belief and worship, often involving a code of ethics and a philosophy.””
I don’t think this includes intelligent design.
Okay, for starters I do not debate with the intent of changing anyone else?s mind. I find it fun and I think it?s a good way to exchange information. I?m also interested in learning more about the anti-abortion standpoint.
Okay, sorry about that. I kind of lumped you in with some other pro-choice debaters here without realizing it.
Your criticism of me is correct. I do recognize that I have a tendency to feel that my opinion is right and that other people?s different opinions on the issue are wrong. I do not believe that I do this to a greater extent than anyone else on the planet but I do recognize that I do it. It?s actually one of the reasons that I?m here. For once, I want to actually know what people who disagree with me say and what their reasons are. There is a human tendency to demonize one?s opponents and I wish to avoid it. I seek to understand, not to condemn.
Bravo, Enigma! I really appreciate the way you look at things here, and I hope that we will give you some good discussions, and things to think in the future, as I am sure you will give us much to think about as well!
Since I have never run across this evidence, I would appreciate if you could point me in the right direction (a study, website, ect.). Please don?t automatically point me towards an argument on an anti-abortion website, I find that information offered by these sites is typically skewed and unreliable.
I will be more than happy to do this for you (thank you for the opportunity). :)
*******
Sperm enter the woman?s vagina, swim through the cavity of her uterus and out through her Fallopian tubes. This can take as brief a time as five minutes to pass through the uterus and reach the tubes, and as brief as another 15 minutes to pass through the tubes and reach the ovaries. The egg, breaking out of the shell of her ovary, is penetrated by the head of one spermatozoa. Immediately the ovum creates a chemical or electrical charge or fence preventing other sperm from entering.
The pronucleus of the sperm, containing its 23 chromosomes, in about 12 hours migrates to meet the ovum?s pronucleus with its 23 chromosomes. Their fusion takes about 2 hours.
Then in another 18 hours this 46 chromosome nucleus divides into two cells.
Then into 3 cells at which time some new opinion believes the “decision” is made to stay single or pro-gram to divide into twins.
Then to 4 cells, to 8, to 16 and on and on. Jones and Schraeder, “The Process of Human Fertilization,” Fertility and Sterility, vol. 48, no. 2, Aug. 1987, p. 191 Word Wars, E. Diamond, Physician, Nov. 1992, Pp. 14-15 Personal Communication, J. Lejeune 1994
****
In 1981 the U.S. Senate considered Senate Bill #158, the “Human Life Bill.” Extensive hearings (eight days, 57 witnesses) were conducted by Senator John
East. National and international authorities testified. We quote from the official Senate report, 97th Congress, S-158:
“Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that conception [they defined fertilization and conception to be the same] marks the beginning of the life of a human being ? a being that is alive and is a member of the human species. There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological, and scientific writings.” Report, Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th Congress, 1st Session 1981, p. 7 On pages 7-9, the report lists a “limited sample” of 13 medical textbooks, all of which state categorically that the life of an individual human begins at conception. Then, on pages 9-10, the report quotes several out-standing authorities who testified personally:
– Professor J. Lejeune, Paris, discoverer of the chromosome pattern of Down?s Syndrome: “Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception.”
– Professor W. Bowes, University of Colorado: Be-ginning of human life? ? “at conception.”
– Professor H. Gordon, Mayo Clinic: “It is an established fact that human life begins at conception.”
– Professor M. Matthews-Roth, Harvard University: “It is scientifically correct to say that individual human life begins at conception.”
****
Also, I have my own miscarriage that happened in February, in which I lost my little child named Blessing. He/she died at only 6 weeks gestation…even younger than most abortions are performed. I miscarried and what I saw was not a blob of tissue, but a very real, beautiful, and complex little human being. I have shown these pictures many times before at this blog, but since you are new here you may not have ever seen them. You can click the links below to see:
http://sketchesbybethany.net/babyblessing3.jpg
http://www.preciousinfants.com/babyblessing111.jpg
http://www.preciousinfants.com/babyblessingtwo.jpg
https://www.jillstanek.com/archives/bethanyf.jpg
https://www.jillstanek.com/archives/babyblessing2%20%282%29.jpg
Those are my pictures of my baby.
And from a scientific viewpoint, my baby was complete, needing absolutely nothing to be added to him or her from the time of conception except water and nutrition, which are the basic needs of every person on this earth.
My baby wasn’t a potential person, because there was nothing necessary to change or be added in order to make him or her so. My baby died of a brain abnormality. He or she was my fourth child.
The egg and the sperm are potential persons, because until they unite, they cannot grow and develop into a human being…they are not complete human organisms. However, from the moment of conception, a human being only has to develop with basic nutrition. If there was some new cell which had to be added at some point, or something external which must be added to the baby after conception to make it a human, I would agree with you that it was a potential person. But from a scientific viewpoint, it’s just not factual.
Abortion ends a potential human life. There is no way that I can deny that and nor do I try. Ending even a potential life is a big deal. It?s not something that should be done lightly.
If you read the above, you’ll see that I don’t take ending potential lives as a big deal. But I do take the ending of an actual complete human being very seriously.
Ideally, I would like to see the demand for abortion gradually diminish through the use of contraceptives and better sex ed.
Actually, the use of contraceptives and better sex ed have done nothing but increase unwanted pregnancies. Can you show me evidence to the contrary?
Until we have a 100% effective way of preventing pregnancy
Okay, I gotta say it…there is one, and it’s called abstinence. :-)
and until people are educated enough to know how to avoid unwanted pregnancies, women will become pregnant unintentionally.
I don’t see how that could possible be true since before there was such great access to contraceptives, and before there was sex ed, unwanted pregnancies were much, much rarer. Why is it that now that teenagers get condoms and birth control pills handed to them, complete with plenty of sex ed, there are more unwanted pregnancies than ever before? And how does it make sense that even MORE sex ed will change that?
It seems to me that sex ed is only titilating teenagers and teens being teens are taking chances, when they already know full well the consequences of those chances. But see the problem here is that they have an option to avoid those consequences, abortion. If that option were not available, I believe that teenagers would be MUCH more careful about having sex because they wouldn’t have that option to erase the “problem”.
Okay i know I haven’t answered your whole post but i’ve been here for a couple of hours and really gotta go! I’ll try to respond to the rest later. :)
Bethany,
You are correct about Enigma. She is an outstanding debater and unlike some people will present her argument without name calling, personal insults, or denigrating comments. The mark of a true debater. You may disagree with her, but you better be prepared to tell her why!
Hey enigma,
maybe you can help me … a few decades back, I thought that THE solution to abortion was information … really good visual information. So, in addition to our little plastic dolls (that detail human-fetal growth through the nine months of pregnancy), there was this tv program on the CBC’s ‘Nature of Things’ that had film footage of living throughout gestation. The program’s host (David Suzuki PhD) was an avid pro-abortion supporter who contemplated fishing for salmon (which he loved) because fish hooks caused pain to the fish. Perfect, thought I … absolutely beyond reproach .. even to feminists. The program (I think) was called ‘The Miracle of Life’ and was a film on-the-inside of a womb detailing pregnancy from conception of human life until 30 wks.
[In the final stages of gestation the babe is just too large and fills much of the space in the womb. The pre-born is in a unique type of deep sleep for this time …. leading one pro-choicer (here) to falsely conclude that pre-borns are comatose throughout pregnancy & therefore any pain they do feel is dulled into oblivion.]
In the last few years, the doctors in the UK(England) have developed the ultrasound greatly. The image is filtered through a computer and some amazing 4D-footage shows a highly active pre-born child.
There is a ton of information … then the crunch came. A bored ‘so what?’ greeted my ears. So, no matter how very good our information is young folks (who wish to kill their kids), will accept ANY-bs as fact. “Why, it’s only a blob of cells!”
Here is where you come-in – what do we do now? – if ‘choice’ means ignorance over knowledge; ‘choice in-action’ means going along with the stupidities of the crowd.
John: Doug – last week I told you that there was a way out of the Cartesian-box … so here it is:
Some points to remember – 1) this Cartesian way of observation of reality IS very powerful and many people are here. 2) it is a defensive posture – the outside world is ‘outside’. There is no ‘superiority’ involved. A person in our modern world is very fortunate, if they have managed to avoid this completely.
3) There is absolutely no proof that the Cartesian-box exists or that this works for you. If it does work, enjoy the freedom, please! You will be one of the first ones to attempt it! 4) This method is somewhat unusual. I am a wee bit mathematically inclined: to solve a very difficult puzzle, I’d often look up the answer and often the ‘answer’ yielded enough of a clue as to how I should proceed to ‘solve the problem’. In retrospect much of what I’ve done here is very similar to that.
I hear that, John, and I’ve done the same thing as far as learning how to solve a problem. I still don’t really know what you mean by the “Cartesian Box,” in plain language. You seem to think it would be a bad thing, though.
……..
The motive for wanting out of my ‘box’ was that I knew it too well and I was dying inside … and I did not want to die! The key then to change this outlook was to live a free life. So how does a person become free? … with laws, and rules and a seemingly hostile environment …. How to, how to … ???
Sounds to me like the feeling of “I need something more..” Lots of people feel that way.
……..
Understand what free means … not just the dictionary stuff about ‘choosing’, but how do humans experience freedom … watching an eagle soar, a good belly-laugh; weeping intensely at perverse injustice; reading to overcome ignorance; sailing ; a quiet vacation hike; seeing majestic mountains; riding out a hurricane … etc, etc. Then I realized the concept of ‘choice’ (the dictionary view) had a very little grasp of what my experience of freedom was.
At roughly the same time, I started to understand that one of the key aspects of love is one-ness. [Every expression we have re. affection involves this whether it be a kiss, a hug, a handshake, we ‘touch’ someone, sexual intercourse, etc, etc] Could these two fit together – freedom and love? On-the-surface there is no way, especially if one enjoys the Cartesian-box life. But these two do indeed fit, but a person must be willing to change notions of what ‘freedom’ means. How about ‘freedom is: an extension of being’? With such an understanding even the concept of choice is freed.
I don’t think that freedom is an extention of being. “Being,” alone, implies no freedom, necessarily. However, that is not to say that most of us aren’t actually more free than we are aware of, in our daily lives. Also, I’d say that the human mind can “travel” quite a ways, even in the mere contemplation of things – some of which you mention above – while the body is quite limited (or our physical choices are quite limited).
……..
By becoming-one with/in another (love) a human truly becomes ‘the other’. So such an extension to the world of things (see below), transforms our concepts of ………… there are just too many! Such an extension to another (limited) human being, a person becomes freer in marriage [the two become one] … and children are not burdens-to-stifle-self-expression but opportunities to embrace and enter into a life that is not me. [[ FOR STILL MORE ]] there comes a time when an urge beckons a person yet deeper. Same process, but this time the target is God – by definition both unlimited and Himself free. To extend ourselves to Him is the ultimate in ‘freedom’; if He extends Himself to you, this is liberation – not here myself but have only read about it! And very little (almost none of it), is in the least bit verifiable. Does such need to be? The Cartesian box is only a ‘bad’ memory and has little to do with shaping perspective!
For a given person to benefit philosophically from believing this type of thing, I don’t think it has to be verifiable. Yet to base telling a given woman that she can’t end an unwanted pregnancy per such is the same as telling a woman with an wanted pregnancy that she should end it – “because of my faith.” Well, her faith may be different from the speaker’s.
My wife and I don’t have any kids. We got married fairly “late” – she was 38, I was 41. There are lots of nieces and nephews, though, and to an extent they can be our “kids.” My wife, as a teacher, also gets 150 kids every year, and over the years I’ve had my share in the course of my employment – it’s now 23 years that I’ve been doing the same thing.
……..
This is a very simple exercise but for me was highly transformational :::
Lie on a carpeted floor without a pillow and no music/sound – be quiet. Lie on your back; legs together and arms tucked next to your body. Within a very short while certain areas will become very painful. Right at these points, picture your body slowly descending into the floor … eventually, it will feel like your pain is a tether to hold you. You will release this too … and just float … for me at least my mind did a ‘flip’ and I became very much more aware of what a pure gift living is. Believe me, you will not snooze, if you have no comfort like a pillow.
I always wondered what it would be like to perform such a ritual within marriage. My brother (moved by my experience), could not even fathom what this would do inside marriage. I am not married and so have not tried this here: so caution … it will uncover all kinds of stuff. [This is not for a dilettante.]
Cool, John. I will try it. The only thing I’ve ever done that seems similar is a “shamanic journey” where you imagine yourself going “down” to another realm. No “shaman” is really required for it – easy to do by oneself. It was quite moving for me. Also have stared at my own face in the mirror for long enough that things seem to “change” – there is a morphing that goes on.
I will copy your instructions and e-mail them to myself so I won’t forget.
Thanks,
Doug
Erin: Population grows, eventually, plague happens. It’s not just the population, of course, but the things that come with a growing population- more crowding, which leads to less access to healthcare and other basic necessities, stratifies the lower classes, and then usually the decrease in basic hygiene because of lack of resources provides the breeding ground. *shrug* I’m leaving out the complex stuff, but that’s pretty much it. I’m not worried about stopping it so much because it’s always happened. It’s just what keeps us in line.
Erin – while we can really “mess” with the system by our engineering, etc., it actually is pretty simple – and you’re right about it being inevitable (if that’s what you mean).
There are natural tendencies in the rates of growth and decay in observed systems and the world’s population is no different. With our talent for raising food and fighting disease, we’ve stretched things fairly far from what probably would otherwise have been the case, but in the long run a “reversion to the mean” is still massively likely, or even an overshoot to below the mean.
Doug
Hello Everybody,
Thanks for the warm greetings. I feel far more welcome here than anywhere else I
MK,
Mary,
Okay, I have a confession to make. I am not an expert on climate change. Yes, volcanoes have been spewing pollution into the air for millennia. I will not dispute that. However, this gets back to the issues of pollution that is a natural part of nature and pollution that is artificially created. Volcanoes can and do pollute, but the pollutants that they inject into the atmosphere were naturally created. They came from the earth. The earth can deal with them more easily than it can with artificially created elements. There is also the issue of the amount of pollutants in the air. Volcanoes continue to erupt and they have for centuries. But volcanoes do not do what factories and auto emissions do. They do not spew a constant level of pollution into the air. They erupt infrequently and the earth is able to absorb such insults. The carbon cycle is necessary for life. The problem is when the earth is asked to absorb a constant cycle of insult that it may not be able to sustain.
I
Bethany,
Bethany,
For starters, I would like to offer my deepest condolences for your loss. Miscarriage is never easy to bear and I hope that you are doing alright. Those are lovely pictures. Who wrote the poem at the bottom of that one?
Enigma,
Volcanoes spew poisonous gas and tons of debris into the atmosphere to a degree man cannot match and have done so for millions of years, and continue to do so. Volcanoes have actually caused temporary climate changes. I maintain that climate change involves forces of nature even experts admit they can’t understand and endlessly debate each other on.
The global warming fanatics blame carbon dioxide and buy “carbon credits” to offset the excessive pollution they cause with their private jets fleets of limousines, and very huge homes. I guess trees are planted somewhere to “offset” this pollution. The whole “carbon credit” thing is a collosol farce, just like “man-made” global warming. If these fanatics are really so concerned about CO2, then they should quit breathing.
I don’t think that it’s fanatical to believe that humans could be impacting the environment and could be contributing to wide scale climate change.
You do raise good points. (I have to check the volcano thing). Climate change is extremely complex and it is clear that mass climate change had occurred before on this planet. (Well, if one believes in evolution and trusts the fossil record.) Supposedly it was a change in the climate that killed of the dinosaurs and allowed mammals to become more dominant.
Simply because we do not know everything that there is to know about a topic is not, in my opinion, a good reason to disregard research and factual data. Since you seem to have conducted research on other topics that we’ve debated, I will assume that you’ve researched this as well and have come to an informed decision. My research that led me to a conclusion in the opposite direction. This may be another one of those “let’s agree to disagree things.”
Have a good day. (Oh, I’ve finally replied to the earlier post. Sorry it took me so long to get to that. What does the policy tend to be here on responding to older posts? I ask simply because this one no longer appears to be quite as active as it once was.)
But where is the weeping for the human lives abandoned to laundry room clutter ’til their new lives ebb?
******************************
Simply put, I dont believe it ever happened.