Pill plaque
Tomaselli said he was “surprised” by the following findings, according to Reuters, today….
A European study released on Tuesday has raised new concerns about the safety of women’s long-term use of the birth control pill, suggesting increased risk of heart attack or stroke.
Women who had used oral contraceptives were more likely than those who did not take the pill to have a buildup of plaque in their arteries….
“The main concern is if you have higher plaque levels that you might develop a clot on one of these plaques and have a stroke or a myocardial infarction (heart attack) or sudden cardiac death,” Dr. Ernst Rietzschel of Ghent University in Belgium, who led the research, told reporters….
The researchers saw a rise of 20 to 30% in arterial plaque in two big arteries – the carotid in the neck and the femoral in the leg – for each decade of use.
“For each decade of use“?
Still Rietzschel said, “Don’t panic.” Easy for him to say as a man as well as self-serving. I wonder if he’d likewise pat men on the head after announcing a male bc pill carried the same risks.
But as I’ve said before, men wouldn’t be stupid enough to take it to begin with. New evidence from an October 1 MSNBC story:
Forty-year-old Scott Hardin says he’s glad that men may soon have a new choice when it comes to birth control. But, he adds, he would not even consider taking a male hormonal contraceptive. Hardin is like many men who are pleased to hear they may have a new option but are wary of taking any type of hormones.
“I would rather rely on a solution that doesn’t involving medicating myself and the problems women have had with hormone therapy doesn’t make me anxious to want to sign on to taking a hormone-type therapy,” says Hardin, who is single….
Women are so, so stupid, gullible, and exploited.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Hardin is like many men who are pleased to hear they may have a new option but are wary of taking any type of hormones.
Yes. He’s not stupid enough to jack with his hormones, let the women damage their bodies instead…
I’m waiting for women to recognize that taking ostentacious pills that mess with their hormones is dangerous and foolish.
Any moment now…
I’m waiting for women to recognize that taking ostentacious pills
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How in the hell can a pill be “ostentatious?”
Anyway, the pill is still the most effective form of contraception available. Take it off the market, and I can assure you that the abortion rate will skyrocket.
Women are so, so stupid, gullible, and exploited.
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yeah …. which is proven by all the antichoice women who post here ….. stupid, gullible and exploited ….
Texas Red, why are you always so upset?
I’m waiting for women to recognize that taking ostentacious pills
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How in the hell can a pill be “ostentatious?”
Anyway, the pill is still the most effective form of contraception available. Take it off the market, and I can assure you that the abortion rate will skyrocket.
Posted by: Laura at November 7, 2007 10:51 AM
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It looks like she doesnt even know what the word means. And youre right – hormone related contraceptives are the most reliable contraceptives available and we have no reliable objective data saying they are really dangerous. But the antichoice crowd tries to pretend sex is for reproduction first and foremost and women who wouldnt be willing to continue a pregnancy shouldnt be sexually active.
As Mark Shea is fond of saying, there are Two Phases of History:
I totally agree with you that women are often told about something that carries risks or that a study showed a bad outcome… then it’s followed by “don’t worry!”
Last week on the news I saw some TV doc reporting on the new BC pill that eliminates periods. The someone brought up fertility and the doc (a woman) answers “It has no effect on fertility. A woman can take the Pill for decades even and when she goes off it, her fertility will be exactly the same as when she started the Pill”.
Absolutely NOT TRUE, not the least of which, if you start the Pill when you are twenty, and take it for two decades, your fertility at age 40 IS NEVER going to be the same as at 20!
But don’t worry.
“But the antichoice crowd tries to pretend sex is for reproduction first and foremost and women who wouldnt be willing to continue a pregnancy shouldnt be sexually active.”
We don’t try to pretend, it is reality ask women who get pregnant when they have sex, duh. And if you don’t want to be pregnant DON’T have sex, grow up and be an adult and quit pouting.
Anonymous, thank you!!
TexasRed said: “But the antichoice crowd tries to pretend sex is for reproduction first and foremost…”
One wonders if you actually intended to employ a straw man, or if you really do think that we believe:
I’m not aware of anyone who holds such a ridiculous, illogical, and indefensible position on sexual morality.
But apparently you think we do.
Suffice it to say, you’re woefully misinformed.
Texas Red,
If you are always this pleasant in life, I can’t imagine why you are worried about birth control anyway. What man would come near you?
MK, ROFLMAO!! I needed that!
Heather,
I stooped. I know, but sometimes even I lose patience with the psychotics on this site.
TR, 11:04
Just a word of advise. Name calling is what people resort to when they are incapable of any kind of intelligent argument.
MK, stooping can be so much fun at times..*evil cackle.*
Texas Red, you have never really offered up any kind of debate. Is there anything you care to talk about?
I am incredibly prolife, and I agree with much of your website, but I have to take issue with calling women who take the pill “stupid.” If you want to try and educate women about problems with the pill, that’s great. Insults will be of no help.
Texas Red is the best argument I have seen that just because you are human does not mean you are a person.
Sorry Tex, but you really are a piece of work. If you, just once, once mind you, post something here that doesn’t carry an insult, a snide overtone, and actually contributes to the conversation, I will donate a $1.00 to the Susan B Komen foundation.
Well sex IS for reproduction first and foremost. Sure there are some nice fringe benefits, but sex is, by definition, reproduction.
While every act of sexual intercourse does not end in pregnancy, the design of the act is to result in offspring. All those nice orgasms simply aid in getting the sperm from point A to point B.
Everyone knows how babies are made, but choicers seem to believe that there is a magical fetus fairy who comes to them unfairly and delivers a little bundle of oppression. Grow up. If you really *really* reaaaaaaaaallly don’t want to get pregnant, don’t participate in the act that *gasp* causes pregnancy.
It really is that simple.
It really is mind boggleing to me why everyone puts so much emphasis on sex. I mean, do you really think that that particiular physical encounter gives THAT much meaning to your relationship that you couldn’t do without it? I’ve been hospitalized for months and (obviously) couldn’t sleep with my husband. Yet, out relationship grew more during that time than any other. Of course putting all physicality on hold indefinitely would be hard, but were we in a situtaion where having a child had DIRE concequences, we could manage.
However, that puts us to what is really the crux of the issue. How often are these people in DIRE anti-child situations. Would having a child really put you on the street and cause you to develop 15 diseases? If the answer is yes, my goodness, DON’T HAVE SEX. Birthcontrol is only so effective and if having a child is going to kill you, I wouldn’t take my chances.
For the vast majority of anti-responsibilitites, having a child is an inconvienance. If you fall into that catagory you have to calculate your odds and see if sex is a safe bet for you. However, if you lose your bet and fall pregnant, don’t feign ignorance of basic human reproduction and sherk responsibilty by blaming the fetus fairy.
You know, they can’t prove anything clearly about the pill having side effects on a woman’s fertility 20 years later because 20 years later a woman’s fertility (whether she’s on the pill or not) is not the same.
Whoa! Every woman’s body is different?! Who knew?!
Besides, there are a billion different chemicals we’re being exposed to today that we never have been before, and any number of those chemicals could have an effect on fertility. Blaming birth control for it is like saying smoking is the only thing that causes pollution. Yeah, it might have an effect, but so does gasoline emissions, so do factories, so does littering…
Lauren,
So you’re saying I should be abstinent for the rest of my life because I never want to have kids?
Now THAT’S oppression. Thanks, but I’ll keep my sex life the way it is. Fun, exciting, loving, without children.
Hey Texas Red, quick question for you:
How can you say the pro-life women here are exploited?
I was under the impression that these women are intelligent enough to know the real facts about sex and reproduction, marriage and commitment. Rational and responsible enough to fight for women’s true rights to life.
Jill,
I just read over the article you posted about men not taking it. But that was ONE man’s comments. What about the rest of the article? Or can you just disregard it because you found the bit you agree with?
Brown has been taking hormonal contraceptives for more than a year. He reports no problems with weight gain or acne, two side effects that occurred in earlier versions of MHCs tested in the 1990s.
Brown, who is married and has three children, hopes his kids will one day be able to benefit from the new technology. His would like his son, who is now 17, to one day have the option of taking a male birth control pill. Brown believes many men will see
Please, let’s remember that my advise on name called applies to both sides!
Women are out to use men to get them pregnant? I have a solution for that….Tell the man not to have sex with her.
It’s time for men to have some self control? Who took it from them in the first place?
Heather, I believe he is referring to accidentally impregnating females who have told him they’re on the pill. Some women manipulate men into relationships with pregnancy and this man is saying he wants control over that.
How in the hell can a pill be “ostentatious?”
When it’s taken when you are healthy. Pills are something you take when you’re sick to cure an ailment. Fertility is health, not an ailment.
The pill is also ostentacious because it’s not the only type of contraceptive. Barrier methods exist that don’t harm the body (the soul, yes, but not the body).
Texas Red, why are you always so upset?
Posted by: heather at November 7, 2007 11:06 AM
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Why do you need to pretend Im ‘upset’? Go back and read some of your hysterical posts if you want to see neurotically ‘upset’ in perpetuity
My whole family is hurt from hormones – the doctors do not know everything. I am a DES daughter – my mother was given hormones to help with miscarriage situations (she had 7). I’m the first to make it, and I have a younger sister, too.
We are both lucky to have children – many DES daughters can not have children. They have no idea about what will happen to us when we get to menopause. Many had cervical cancer as young women (before 25), and now we know that the insult may also go into the next generation. My children may have difficulty in having their own children.
And this was given out in the 1950’s and 60’s not only to women with miscarriage histories, but to ‘insure’ that women would have the ‘perfect baby.’ They even advertised it as such.
And it was Planned Parenthood who gave me the birth control pill – without asking my family health history (and I knew my history).
So, suffice to say, I am no big fan of hormones.
I totally agree with you that women are often told about something that carries risks or that a study showed a bad outcome… then it’s followed by “don’t worry!”
Last week on the news I saw some TV doc reporting on the new BC pill that eliminates periods. The someone brought up fertility and the doc (a woman) answers “It has no effect on fertility. A woman can take the Pill for decades even and when she goes off it, her fertility will be exactly the same as when she started the Pill”.
Absolutely NOT TRUE, not the least of which, if you start the Pill when you are twenty, and take it for two decades, your fertility at age 40 IS NEVER going to be the same as at 20!
But don’t worry.
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So if a woman has a problem with fertility at 40 you want to try to pretend it *must be* because she took the pill for 20 years and not just because she is 40 and its the natural order of things?
Edyt, you can’t be serious. What if a guy told a woman that he didn’t have any STD’s, in order to get her in the sack? Would going on his word be good enough? LOL! Men need to be responsible for their bodies.
Posted by: Anonymous at November 7, 2007 11:16 AM
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If you cant even make up a name to post here and have to pretend youre ‘anonymous’ then dont expect to be taken seriously.
Some women manipulate men into relationships with pregnancy and this man is saying he wants control over that
This infuriates me. The thought that women “trap” men with pregnancy, by lying about contraception, etc.
If a man has sex with a woman, he shouldn’t be the least bit shocked or surprised if a baby results—and no right to blame the woman. Besides, men know if they have a condom on, right?
Suffice it to say, you’re woefully misinformed.
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not according to anyone whose opinion matters … but my comment was sex was for reproduction ‘first and foremost’ and your little tap dance didnt do a thing to alter that fact.
Her/his screen name IS anonymous.
Texas Red,
If you are always this pleasant in life, I can’t imagine why you are worried about birth control anyway. What man would come near you?
Posted by: mk at November 7, 2007 11:20 AM
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Thank you. You never fail to remind me what hypocritical bad tempered chiennes wind up on the antichoice side. All you can come up with is something as stupid as this. Again, thank you for reminding me that Im on the right side of this discussion.
Heather,
I stooped. I know, but sometimes even I lose patience with the psychotics on this site.
Posted by: mk at November 7, 2007 11:22 AM
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you dont lose patience with the antichoicers no matter what they say – again thank you for being such a hypocrite
Studies conducted by the World Health Organization show that men from many countries around the world would welcome MHCs. The WHO has tested MHCs in hundreds of volunteers in various countries around the world and have not found it difficult to recruit volunteers for their studies
So men want to use women for sex and not have any connection to or responsibility for the women or any ensuing children- this is not news.
What I think Jill was referring to is that women are expected and have been duped into altering their hormones FIRST, as guinea pigs, and men see what women have done to themselves and reasonably show a pause…
Heather,
That happens all the time!!! And people BELIEVE IT!
And I totally agree, both people need to be responsible to make sure no STDs or unwanted pregnancies are transmitted. I know I wouldn’t trust my body with some random guy, but who knows? I guess a bunch of people are fine with that.
If you cant even make up a name to post here and have to pretend youre ‘anonymous’ then dont expect to be taken seriously
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AGAIN, That’s their CHOICE…isn’t it?
*the trouble with these pro-abort/ pro-choice people is that it’s only a choice IF the choice is favorable to them….
Texas Red, you have never really offered up any kind of debate. Is there anything you care to talk about?
Posted by: heather at November 7, 2007 11:26 AM
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Well let me see – we could talk about what a liar you are, just for starters. How about that?
BTW: Ostentatious means pretentious and showy, as a way to impress someone.
I don’t think the BC pill is quite there yet…
Yanno, everytime TexasRed posts, all I read is:
Blah blah stupid, blah blah da blah idiot blah blah, moron, blah blah, chienne, blah blah blah.
I think she just cuts and pastes the same thing to each post, because it’s not like she ever addresses a specific argument or forms an abstract thought.
Texas Red, If you would TALK to MK, you just might like her. She would extend the same courtesy to you. The problem IS, that nobody knows what the heck your problem IS.
Texas Red, go for it.
Hey Texas Red, quick question for you:
How can you say the pro-life women here are exploited?
I was under the impression that these women are intelligent enough to know the real facts about sex and reproduction, marriage and commitment. Rational and responsible enough to fight for women’s true rights to life.
Posted by: RSD at November 7, 2007 11:39 AM
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The antichoice side exploits women by convincing them that the most important thing they can do in life is gestate and give birth – doesnt matter what it does to them, or their lives – THEY stop being important the minute they get pregnant. Their pregnancy is more important than they are, and they should be willing to make any sacrifice in order to gestate. That’s just one example.
Texas Red, are you saying that the pro choice side doesn’t exploit women? What about the abortion industry?
ostentatious
One entry found.
ostentatious
Main Entry: os
Well sex IS for reproduction first and foremost. Sure there are some nice fringe benefits, but sex is, by definition, reproduction.
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Not with human beings – if sex was for reproduction ‘first and foremost’ then human females would have the same kind of biological set up that most other mammals have – we wouldnt have sex except when we were fertile. If we werent fertile we would stop being sexually active. Human females can be sexually active 24/7 365 and 366 on leap year – she’s only fertile for a couple of days a month and some women arent fertile that often, or at all – but they can still be sexually active. If anything, given how often a woman can be sexually active, pregnancy is almost incidental. Even without contraceptives or NFP in a years time a sexually active woman has about a 15% chance of not getting pregnant.
Jacqueline, I know, it upsets me too. But there are a lot of really shifty people out there. And honestly, I think sometimes guys are a bit gullible in that they trust a sweet, loving woman who says she’s protected, oh definitely. I know a lot of guys don’t like using condoms, so they have to trust the girl they sleep with. Unfortunately, it doesn’t always work out so well!!
And in response to using women as guinea pigs; I see where you’re coming from, but I don’t really think doctors had any bad intentions for women. They probably knew more about fertility in a woman than they did in a man and knew how to manipulate it better. Then they decided to see if it could work for a man. Guys just lucked out in that they saw all the side effects first!
If there was a drug out there to increase sperm count, it would be first tested on men, and then later they would look into increasing eggs in a woman. She would then be able to see the male side effects and make a decision. I don’t think anyone really intends to butcher one sex or the other.
Ostentacious has also evolved to mean “unnecessary” which is the manner I used it. Much like “jealous” actually means “fear of loss” but is used and understood like “envious.”
If you prefer, I’ll reword:
“I’m waiting for women to recognize that taking extraneous pills that mess with their hormones is dangerous and foolish.”
Yanno, everytime TexasRed posts, all I read is:
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You’ve already established your inadequate reading comprehension skills –
The antichoice side exploits women by convincing them that the most important thing they can do in life is gestate and give birth
WOAH! Really? Then I better quit my doctoral program and get knocked up ASAP!
I’m as “anti-choice” as they come: Why haven’t I been told that all of my accomplishment are a total waste of time!?!?!
If you cant even make up a name to post here and have to pretend youre ‘anonymous’ then dont expect to be taken seriously
—————–
AGAIN, That’s their CHOICE…isn’t it?
*the trouble with these pro-abort/ pro-choice people is that it’s only a choice IF the choice is favorable to them….
Posted by: RSD at November 7, 2007 12:07 PM
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And what do you fantasize would be “favorable to me” in this context?
Texas Red, how about the pro choicers who STILL insist on exploiting Becky Bell to satisfy their political agenda??? You remember, don’t you?? The girl who died from pneumonia, yet pro choicers still insist that it was an illegal abortion. Nice try.
Texas Red, If you would TALK to MK, you just might like her. She would extend the same courtesy to you. The problem IS, that nobody knows what the heck your problem IS.
Posted by: heather at November 7, 2007 12:09 PM
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MK has proven what a hypocrite she is over and over again. And assuming I have to have a ‘problem’ is one more stupid mistake on your part. The idea of you, or someone like you, presuming to make decisions for other women is vastly amusing. I wouldnt say that laughing at you and those like you is a ‘problem’.
Edyt,
I don’t really think doctors had any bad intentions for women
Not implying that they did. But can’t you see how the whole concept of breaking fertility at the expense of women’s health is flawed? The pill simply exists to make sex consequence-free. Although I point out inequities, I’m not suggesting a gender conspiracy. I, though, will point out that I think immoral men have most benefitted from the sexual revolution at the expense of women and children.
Oh, I forgot:
hipocrite blah blah blah.
Texas Red, where has MK proven herself a hypocrite?
Texas Red, are you saying that the pro choice side doesn’t exploit women? What about the abortion industry?
Posted by: heather at November 7, 2007 12:13 PM
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Why would anyone think ‘Make up your own mind’ exploits anyone? What part of ‘Do what you think is best’ exploits women? What part of ‘Its up to you’ exploits women? And what about ‘the abortion industry’? To a large extent thats an invention of the antichoice side. Look at Planned Parenthood – for every 3 women who have an abortion 97 women go for other health care issues INCLUDING contraceptives. PP has done more to REDUCE the number of abortions in the US than all the ‘sidewalk counselors’ and ‘christian crisis pregnancy centers’ in this country. Most doctors who perform abortions are ob/gyns who offer a full array of womens health care and gestation and birth is going to make a doctor a lot more money than an abortion.
Texas Red, how about the pro choicers who STILL insist on exploiting Becky Bell to satisfy their political agenda??? You remember, don’t you?? The girl who died from pneumonia, yet pro choicers still insist that it was an illegal abortion. Nice try.
Posted by: heather at November 7, 2007 12:20 PM
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One way Becky Bell’s acute sepsis manifested itself was pulmonary edema. The resulting pneumonia killed her.
It’s kind of like saying a man died of heart failure after being shot in the head. Yes, heart failure did kill him, but the huge, gaping hole in his head was the primary cause of death…
Unless you’re taking gold-plated pills from a Cartier elephant ivory dispenser, your pills aren’t ostentatious.
Posted by: Laura at November 7, 2007 12:13 PM
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Yup!
Abortionists are not doctors. Abortionists are murderers.
When it’s taken when you are healthy. Pills are something you take when you’re sick to cure an ailment. Fertility is health, not an ailment.
The pill is also ostentacious because it’s not the only type of contraceptive. Barrier methods exist that don’t harm the body (the soul, yes, but not the body).
Posted by: Jacqueline at November 7, 2007 11:59 AM
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So by using the pill and having two planned pregnancies instead of having 8 or 10 kids I couldnt have taken nearly as good care of, my ‘soul’ was somehow ‘hurt’? You really do not have ANY contact with reality, do you?
The antichoice side exploits women by convincing them that the most important thing they can do in life is gestate and give birth – doesnt matter what it does to them, or their lives – THEY stop being important the minute they get pregnant. Their pregnancy is more important than they are, and they should be willing to make any sacrifice in order to gestate. That’s just one example.
Posted by: TexasRed at November 7, 2007 12:11 PM
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A Mother giving life to her child and by selflessly taking care of them is exploitation???
Isn’t that a mother’s NATURAL instinct to her baby?
That is not correct. Becky Bell had a miscarriage. Have you ever read her full autopsy report? She died from pneumonia, and no evidence of an abortion was ever found. Her poor parents were used by the pro choice nut logs to further their political agenda.
Jacqueline,
I don’t think we should look at sex as something that should be filled with consequences though. If a person doesn’t want to have a child, they shouldn’t have to have a child, and they shouldn’t be denied the same sexual liberties as someone who does.
My aunt and uncle, for example, both have fulfilling lives and never had children.
I do agree that women have taken the brunt of all sexual consequences, as we can see from all the single mothers out there. I think men and women are equally responsible for their decisions to have sex and whether or not to use contraceptives when they do. Women’s health is incredibly flawed and I do think that’s in part to the people who have been in charge of it for a long time – men. Regardless, we are making vast strides in women’s health and a lot of really great men are on board. In Chicago, for example, last month I covered a story about a men’s health rally for breast cancer awareness. They were raising money to help support women and the hope for a cure. There are a lot of new initiatives that are putting men and women on an equal plane when it comes to sexuality, and I don’t think we should downplay that and continue looking at our past mistakes as a society for justification to blame one sex over another.
Also, what about people who are infertile? They don’t suffer the “consequences” of having sex, unless we’re talking about potential STDs. Should they still be abstinent, even if they can’t produce kids?
Why would anyone think ‘Make up your own mind’ exploits anyone? What part of ‘Do what you think is best’ exploits women? What part of ‘Its up to you’ exploits women? And what about ‘the abortion industry’? To a large extent thats an invention of the antichoice side. Look at Planned Parenthood – for every 3 women who have an abortion 97 women go for other health care issues INCLUDING contraceptives. PP has done more to REDUCE the number of abortions in the US than all the ‘sidewalk counselors’ and ‘christian crisis pregnancy centers’ in this country. Most doctors who perform abortions are ob/gyns who offer a full array of womens health care and gestation and birth is going to make a doctor a lot more money than an abortion.
Congratulations, TexasRed! Although what you said is complete and total bullsh!t, it actually makes a coherent, declarative statement! It also lacks your typical buzzwords and catchphrase epithets!
I’m proud of you!
American women WANT access to abortion. Over 1,000,000 of them plunk down good money for the privledge. The vast, VAST majority are happy with their decision and satisfied by the results.
How is that “exploiting” women?
The antichoice side exploits women by convincing them that the most important thing they can do in life is gestate and give birth
WOAH! Really? Then I better quit my doctoral program and get knocked up ASAP!
I’m as “anti-choice” as they come: Why haven’t I been told that all of my accomplishment are a total waste of time!?!?!
Posted by: Jacqueline at November 7, 2007 12:19 PM
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If you got pregnant then everything else you were doing would be put on hold regardless of what it did to you or your life. You prove my point.
Congratulations, TexasRed! Although what you said is complete and total bullsh!t, it actually makes a coherent, declarative statement! It also lacks your typical buzzwords and catchphrase epithets!
Posted by: Jacqueline at November 7, 2007 12:31 PM
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But was it ostentatious?
Lauren, I agree that our society puts WAY too much emphasis on sex. We have the media to blame for that. For example, the TV show “Friends” displayed a totally unrealistic, misleading view of male/female relationships. It’s a shame that our young people have to be influenced by that stuff.
Over the summer, at a neighborhood pool, I overheard a loud conversation between three teens (two girls and a boy) who were standing in the middle of the pool. At one point one girl proclaimed to the others, “I’m sexually active”. She said it in the same matter-of-fact way that she might have said, “I’m having pizza for dinner”.
Texas Red, how about the pro choicers who STILL insist on exploiting Becky Bell to satisfy their political agenda??? You remember, don’t you?? The girl who died from pneumonia, yet pro choicers still insist that it was an illegal abortion. Nice try.
Posted by: heather at November 7, 2007 12:20 PM
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What about it? What does that have to do with ‘let each woman decide for herself’? How does not negate the fact that letting women make up their own mind is anything but exploitive? And do you really want to ignore all the women who have supposedly died from legal abortions that the antichoice side drag around for THEIR political agenda? What is the web page? Blackmuns wall? Never mind the fact that gestation and birth is more dangerous than an abortion.
Abortion is a privledge?
Oh, I forgot:
hipocrite blah blah blah.
Posted by: Jacqueline at November 7, 2007 12:24 PM
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As I pointed out, your reading comprehension skills are apparently virtually non existant.
Texas Red, So lying is okay with you?
Abortionists are not doctors. Abortionists are murderers.
Posted by: heather at November 7, 2007 12:27 PM
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back to the antichoice pride in looking like a complete and total idiot –
Man, TR’s moral compass is way, way off course!
Texas Red, How many women died from illegal abortions? Any idea?
Texas Red, how many times a day do you say idiot?
A Mother giving life to her child and by selflessly taking care of them is exploitation???
Isn’t that a mother’s NATURAL instinct to her baby?
Posted by: RSD at November 7, 2007 12:29 PM
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You prove my point – there has to be something ‘wrong’ with a woman who doesnt view gestation and birth as the most important thing she can do at any point in her life. And yes, convincing women that the lose all value as a person the minute they get pregnant and nothing in their live is more important than gestation exploits them.
Congratulations, TexasRed! Although what you said is complete and total bullsh!t, it actually makes a coherent, declarative statement! It also lacks your typical buzzwords and catchphrase epithets!
I’m proud of you!
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its ‘bull’ because you say so? how amusing! I notice that you werent able to address any point made – why does that not surprise me?
Texas Red, have you ever aborted?
TR,
You mean…Your life is more important than the baby’s life…which you participated in bringing into being?
Can’t we agree that different people have different priorities? Such as having children or not having children? Can we also agree that it is not anyone’s right to decide that but the couple?
Texas Red, what points have you made?
Texas Red, So lying is okay with you?
Posted by: heather at November 7, 2007 12:39 PM
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You can lie as much as you want. I couldnt care less.
TR, I meant you.
the tone here is pretty harsh.
The real choice women should be able to make is wether to parent or not.
The abortion choice is not about chossing vanilla or chocolate ice cream. When women choose abortion – it’s to end their child’s life.
Being responsible means, if you decide to parent, great, and your child lives.
If you decide to let others parent (adoption), great, and your child lives.
Choose not to parent, and choose abortion – it’s the direct choice to kill the child. period.
And try as one might, Planned Parenthood is the largest single provider of abortion in America.
And when PP tries to ‘help’ people to contraception, people forget that sexual intimacy is for babies and bonding – and it’s not for recreational sport. People overly-rely on their contraception to have thier fun, without realizing that every act of intimacy can result in a baby, STD, etc.
They forget, that one can not fool mother nature.
Doctors do not know exactly what the consequences of this hormone exposure will be. And we have played a terrible game of Russian roulette, with women paying the price of all this experimentation.
Can’t we agree that different people have different priorities? Such as having children or not having children? Can we also agree that it is not anyone’s right to decide that but the couple?
Posted by: Edyt at November 7, 2007 12:45 PM
———————–
I would agree to all of the above as long as it does not involve any killing of babies….
Man, TR’s moral compass is way, way off course!
Posted by: RSD at November 7, 2007 12:40 PM
******************************************
how so? and according to whom? I mean someone whose opinion actually has value ….
Thanks, joy.
RSD, you just gave the same answer that I was going to.
Texas Red, how many times a day do you say idiot?
Posted by: heather at November 7, 2007 12:41 PM
***************************
It depends on how many times Im dealing with the simple minded stupidity of anti choice ‘arguments’ ….
“The antichoice side exploits women by convincing them that the most important thing they can do in life is gestate and give birth – doesnt matter what it does to them, or their lives – THEY stop being important the minute they get pregnant. Their pregnancy is more important than they are, and they should be willing to make any sacrifice in order to gestate. That’s just one example.”
Excuse me, but I would say basing your entire worth as a human being on the fact that you are sexually active is exploitative. “Woe is me! If I don’t want to get pregnant, then I can’t have sex! Why is life worth living!” How about because you are an educated, powerful, intelligent, eloquent, proud woman with full relationships based on so many things other than sex? If you are buying into the myth that in order to be a real woman or a real grown up or be in a real relationship you have to be sexually active, then you are being exploited.
And, I have to say, the only place I have ever seen the BC pill where it could be defined as “ostentatious” is on a pro-life blog. I find pro- choicers (particularly those defending PP) shouting out, “Look at me! I’m on the Pill. It’s a good thing, because then I can have a lot of sex!” That is ostentatious.
And finally, PP helps 97 women with other stuff for every 3 abortions? Not so. Each woman who has an abortion gets a pregnancy test, STD testing, counselling, and a contraceptive package. That means that this one woman, according to their stats, counts as someone who received at least four other services. The stats are skewed to minimize the impact of abortion.
EH
Well, why do you choose to debate with pro lifers? Doesn’t it stress you out?
Texas Red, have you ever aborted?
Posted by: heather at November 7, 2007 12:44 PM
****************************************
And just how do you fantasize that has anything at all to do with this discussion?
But no, I’ve never had an abortion nor have I been in a position where I needed to consider having one.
Man, TR’s moral compass is way, way off course!
Posted by: RSD at November 7, 2007 12:40 PM
******************************************
how so? and according to whom? I mean someone whose opinion actually has value ….
Posted by: TexasRed
—————————
For starter’s, lying’s ok with you (as you aptly stated)…a complete violation of the 9th Commandment.
Ooops, I forgot…you probably don’t believe in the 10 Commandments anyway…hence the broken moral compass.
Edyt-
This is interesting. I’m looking at things I’ve never thought about before. I hope it’s not curt, but I’m going to respond thought-by-thought.
I don’t think we should look at sex as something that should be filled with consequences
I don’t- not if you take the word consequences in a negative connotation. I meant consequence as literal, an event following another. I don’t see babies as negative at all! And the only time sex has negative consequences is when it’s used out of context. It’s then that we have STDS, etc.
I do think sex should be fruitful. If it’s not fruitful, something’s wrong. Either something’s wrong with the bodies of the people involved or they’re manipulating their bodies or the act to make sex fruitless. That’s not cool.
they shouldn’t be denied the same sexual liberties as someone who does.
You’re saying that women are at a disadvantage because our bodies carry children- that men have more sexual liberties because they don’t gestate? I’m just trying to understand.
My aunt and uncle, for example, both have fulfilling lives and never had children.
I’m not saying one’s happiness is directly proportional to the number of children. But I must know, who is going to care for your aunt and uncle when they get old?
I do agree that women have taken the brunt of all sexual consequences, as we can see from all the single mothers out there.
I don’t look at it as the brunt of sexual consequences, but the failure of men to be real men and the willngness of women to alone men to be irresponsible. By a woman ingesting a pill and having sex with men who aren’t committed to her, she’s conceding that she doesn’t think that man will be responsible. I’m blown away at the shock these single mothers have in being single mothers, since they had sex while single.
I think men and women are equally responsible for their decisions to have sex and whether or not to use contraceptives when they do.
We, as a society, let men run off and blame women as trapping men when they don’t alter their bodies with hormones. That’s crap.
Women’s health is incredibly flawed and I do think that’s in part to the people who have been in charge of it for a long time – men.
I think we have some responsibility for that by accepting less than we deserve: abortion instead of support; contraceptives for actual medical conditions instead of a cure or treatment that addresses the problem.
Regardless, we are making vast strides in women’s health and a lot of really great men are on board. In Chicago, for example, last month I covered a story about a men’s health rally for breast cancer awareness. They were raising money to help support women and the hope for a cure.
That’s awesome!
There are a lot of new initiatives that are putting men and women on an equal plane when it comes to sexuality
If we’re not equal, someone must be lower. I don’t see my ability to carry a baby as making my seuxality lower than men’s. Our bodies, male and female, are meant to work together, fit together and produce. Not compete. To say that we have to be able to have sex without engaging our reproductive organs (and shut them down, even) to be equal implies that something’s wrong.
and I don’t think we should downplay that and continue looking at our past mistakes as a society for justification to blame one sex over another.
Agreed. Let’s not blame. Let’s, as women, stop taking the spoonfed bullsh!t and expect to be treated with respect the way we are.
Also, what about people who are infertile?
That’s a sign that something’s wrong. If I were them, I’d hope there was a remedy and seek to find it.
Should they still be abstinent, even if they can’t produce kids?
Absolutely not! Sex serves a myriad of awesome purposes, beyond reproduction What I oppose is removing the reproduction part from sex artificially.
Erin, thank you!!!!!
TR,
You mean…Your life is more important than the baby’s life…which you participated in bringing into being?
Posted by: RSD at November 7, 2007 12:45 PM
*********************************************
What baby? And suggesting that a woman ISNT more important than mindless insensate nonviable tissue and cell structure is proving your misogyny.
I have to say, the only place I have ever seen the BC pill where it could be defined as “ostentatious” is on a pro-life blog. I have repeatedly seen pro- choicers (particularly those defending PP) shouting out, “Look at me! I’m on the Pill. It’s a good thing, because then I can have a lot of sex!” That is ostentatious.
Also, PP helps 97 women with other stuff for every 3 abortions? Not so. Medical abortions, which can be misleading categorized as “emergency contraception” are not counted. And, each woman who has an abortion gets a pregnancy test, STD testing, counselling, and a contraceptive package. That means that this one woman, according to their stats, counts as someone who received at least four other services. The stats are skewed to minimize the impact of abortion.
EH
Texas Red, what points have you made?
Posted by: heather at November 7, 2007 12:45 PM
**********************
What limited reading comprehension and retention skills you have …..
I would agree to all of the above as long as it does not involve any killing of babies….
Posted by: RSD at November 7, 2007 12:47 PM
******************************
That would be against the law.
TR,
You mean…Your life is more important than the baby’s life…which you participated in bringing into being?
Posted by: RSD at November 7, 2007 12:45 PM
*********************************************
What baby? And suggesting that a woman ISNT more important than mindless insensate nonviable tissue and cell structure is proving your misogyny.
Posted by: TexasRed
——————————————
Here we go again, folks…
And just how do you fantasize that has anything at all to do with this discussion?
But no, I’ve never had an abortion nor have I been in a position where I needed to consider having one.
Posted by: TexasRed at November 7, 2007 12:52 PM******************************************************************************** LOL! Fantasize? It’s a pro life board.
RSD, you just gave the same answer that I was going to.
Posted by: heather at November 7, 2007 12:50 PM
——————————–
Yeah! Pro-life to the MAX!!
Well, why do you choose to debate with pro lifers? Doesn’t it stress you out?
Posted by: heather at November 7, 2007 12:51 PM
****************************
Of course not. I find it amusing. And there is hardly any ‘debate’ when some simpleton is gibbering and drooling that a doctor who performs an abortion ‘isnt really a doctor’ or that ‘abortion is murder’. Its hysterical idiocy from the antichoice side.
If you got pregnant then everything else you were doing would be put on hold regardless of what it did to you or your life. You prove my point.
Because having a baby renders women physically unable to do ANYTHING else? I’m a statistician and a student. I could do both pregnant, with an infant, breastfeeding, ad nauseum.
Women don’t cease to have a life when a new life begins. If anything, their lives become more full.
TR, I meant you.
Posted by: heather at November 7, 2007 12:46 PM
**********************************
Im not the one lying. You seem to have a really serious problem with reading comprehension.
TR,
How do you define ‘abortion’, then if it’s not murder?
Of course not. I find it amusing. And there is hardly any ‘debate’ when some simpleton is gibbering and drooling that a doctor who performs an abortion ‘isnt really a doctor’ or that ‘abortion is murder’. Its hysterical idiocy from the antichoice side.
So essentially, she just likes to hurl insults.
Laura,
Becky’s autopsy report was reviewed by experts in the area of pathology, gynecology, and infectious diesease. The doctors ruled that Becky died of strep pneumonia, which can be have a rapid onset and be quickly fatal. It can start out with what seems like mild flu symptoms and as a result, people do not realize how seriously ill they are, as was the case with Becky and her parents. Its the same type of pneumonia that killed muppeteer Jim Henson and nearly killed actress Elizabeth Taylor. The doctors also referred to the claim of Becky having an illegal abortion as “this incredible lie”.
There was no evidence of trauma to her reproductive system, and evidence of a miscarriage. It was coincidental that she developed pneumonia at the same time.
It should be pointed out that Becky’s close friend and confidant, Heather Clark, remained adamant that no abortion, legal or illegal, had ever occured. Becky spoke with Heather the day after her alleged illegal abortion and asked her to make an appt for her for a legal abortion in another state. Rather strange that she would do this if she had had an abortion already. Tragically, Becky died a few days later.
There are many other aspects to this whole saga that were not made public, it wouldn’t have helped the cause of the PC crowd that wanted to exploit her tragic death for their own purposes, and out of respect to Becky’s memory and her family, I will not delve into them. Her memory and her family should be left in peace.
Excuse me, but I would say basing your entire worth as a human being on the fact that you are sexually active is exploitative.
*******************
you have the right to say all the idiotic things you want –
For starter’s, lying’s ok with you (as you aptly stated)…a complete violation of the 9th Commandment.
Ooops, I forgot…you probably don’t believe in the 10 Commandments anyway…hence the broken moral compass.
Posted by: RSD at November 7, 2007 12:52 PM
*****************************
Stupid people make stupid assumptions – you can make all the stupid assumptions you want.
Ugh Texas Red…
Fertility does wane at a certain age, sure.. But taking contraceptives surpresses ovulation for so many years, your body mimics that when you come off..
Im proud to say at 40, I am having my 8th child..
While I am sure you will harass me for having SO MANY KIDS.. guess what? These kids will be paying for your Social Security.. Oh but wait,, SS might not exist because we have aborted 45+million children that could have been paying into the system.
While all us pro-lifers keep having dozens of children, the pro-choicers will eventually be outnumbered…. Never thought of that one, eh?
Ooops, I forgot…you probably don’t believe in the 10 Commandments anyway…hence the broken moral compass.
Posted by: RSD at November 7, 2007 12:52 PM
*****************************
Stupid people make stupid assumptions – you can make all the stupid assumptions you want.
Posted by: TexasRed
—————————
Hmmm….was that a ‘Yes’ or a ‘No’ to believing in the 10 Commandments?
And just how do you fantasize that has anything at all to do with this discussion?
But no, I’ve never had an abortion nor have I been in a position where I needed to consider having one.
Posted by: TexasRed at November 7,2007 12:52PM
*************************************************
LOL! Fantasize? It’s a pro life board.
Posted by: heather at November 7, 2007 12:56 PM
***********************
Yes, heather, fantasize. Why do you fantasize whether or not Ive had an abortion has anything at all to do with this discussion?
Texas Red you said:
Most doctors who perform abortions are ob/gyns who offer a full array of womens health care and gestation and birth is going to make a doctor a lot more money than an abortion.
Are you crazy? PP Chicago’s medical director/abortionist made $650,000. That’s alot of money. And since the average cost of an abortion ranges from $300-$600, depending on how far along the unborn baby is, there are major dollars involved.
Aurora PP says it will do roughly 9,000 a year. If we take a conservative figure like $350 per abortion that adds up to $3,150,000. I’d hardly call chump change.
Here’s another example:
Add up all the PP clinics just in AK,AL,AR,AZ,CA,CO,CT,DC,DE,FL = 203
Out out the 203 clinics 112 perform abortions. That’s more than 50%.
If each clinic only performed 20 a day at $350 each that would be: 112×20=2240 2240x$350=$784,000 per day. You don’t think it’s about money. They are not making that kind of cash on birth control.
I do think sex should be fruitful. If it’s not fruitful, something’s wrong. Either something’s wrong with the bodies of the people involved or they’re manipulating their bodies or the act to make sex fruitless. That’s not cool.
******************
so there is something ‘wrong’ with people who are sexually active and do not have children …. yeah, right –
Texas Red,
You just make it soooooo easy…
Its my favorite word when dealing with antichoicers … its also singularly appropriate and completely valid. Its not my fault antichoicers cant offer and intelligent defense for their position, or they think ignorance and stupidity are a valid support for their position.
You do realize that right after you posted this ^ you posted this:
You are such a hypocrite!.
Was that your version of intelligent discourse? NYUK, NYUK, NYUK…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7txeOlujTc
Here we go again, folks…
Posted by: RSD at November 7, 2007 12:55 PM
************************
yes, its called dealing with reality … antichoicers arent terribly good at that
Everyone,
Re: Texas Red…let me know if/when you want her gone…
If you got pregnant then everything else you were doing would be put on hold regardless of what it did to you or your life. You prove my point.
Because having a baby renders women physically unable to do ANYTHING else? I’m a statistician and a student. I could do both pregnant, with an infant, breastfeeding, ad nauseum.
Women don’t cease to have a life when a new life begins. If anything, their lives become more full.
Posted by: Jacqueline at November 7, 2007 12:58 PM
***************************
And you harbor the egocentric self absorbed delusion that YOU can speak for every other woman in the world – if another woman doesnt agree with you then there just has to be something ‘wrong’ with her. Pregnancy and childbrith ALWAYS makes a womans life “more full” (?) – it couldnt possibly happen any other way.
Here we go again, folks…
Posted by: RSD at November 7, 2007 12:55 PM
************************
yes, its called dealing with reality … antichoicers arent terribly good at that
Posted by: TexasRed
—————————-
What “reality” is that, TR?
That a baby in the mother’s womb is not a baby until it comes out and VOILA, it’s now a BABY?
..and pro-lifers are the ones NOT dealing in reality?
TR,
So if a woman has a problem with fertility at 40 you want to try to pretend it *must be* because she took the pill for 20 years and not just because she is 40 and its the natural order of things?
Just as long as you go on pretending it isn’t…
Ugh Texas Red…
Fertility does wane at a certain age, sure.. But taking contraceptives surpresses ovulation for so many years, your body mimics that when you come off..
Im proud to say at 40, I am having my 8th child..
While I am sure you will harass me for having SO MANY KIDS.. guess what? These kids will be paying for your Social Security.. Oh but wait,, SS might not exist because we have aborted 45+million children that could have been paying into the system.
While all us pro-lifers keep having dozens of children, the pro-choicers will eventually be outnumbered…. Never thought of that one, eh?
Posted by: yvonne at November 7, 2007 1:04 PM
*****************
Why do you imagine I could possibly care how many children you have? And very few antichoicers DO have huge families so your assumption just comes across as idiotic. But there is a definite asset in waiting until you are financially established before starting a family and assuming women who have an abortion do not have children is showing a real lack of intelligent thought. Since the population of the US is not decreasing, whining about SS makes you look not too very bright too.
Jacqueline,
(I’ll do a similar play by play)
I don’t- not if you take the word consequences in a negative connotation. I meant consequence as literal, an event following another. I don’t see babies as negative at all! And the only time sex has negative consequences is when it’s used out of context. It’s then that we have STDS, etc.
I do think sex should be fruitful. If it’s not fruitful, something’s wrong. Either something’s wrong with the bodies of the people involved or they’re manipulating their bodies or the act to make sex fruitless. That’s not cool.
I totally agree! I have to say I’ve been jaded … whenever my parents mentioned consequences they were always negative! I don’t think babies are negative either, but I do believe in some circumstances (or some people) it is a negative experience. I don’t think everyone should have kids because honestly, some people are not fit to be parents. (I consider myself one of these people, though some have told me I’d be an okay mother. I don’t know and I’m not willing to risk it.) Sex to me is a wonderful experience. Sure, it’s not always great, but I think with the right two people, it’s a wonderful thing and has many benefits.
You’re saying that women are at a disadvantage because our bodies carry children- that men have more sexual liberties because they don’t gestate? I’m just trying to understand.
We are in some regards. Look at the animal kingdom – the male can come in, have sex with the female, leave her alone with the kids and the bills. It’s the same thing with humans. Plus, a man doesn’t have to go through the huge body changes a woman goes through. I’m just saying men and women should be given the equal opportunity to be sexually active without one or the other handling any consequences alone.
I’m not saying one’s happiness is directly proportional to the number of children. But I must know, who is going to care for your aunt and uncle when they get old?
Most likely members of my family. I would love to move out to California and take care of her! And our medical advancements have been huge. A lot of children don’t take care of their parents anymore. We have hospice staffers who do so, and many who are better equipped to handle the aging than their chilren.
I don’t look at it as the brunt of sexual consequences, but the failure of men to be real men and the willngness of women to alone men to be irresponsible. By a woman ingesting a pill and having sex with men who aren’t committed to her, she’s conceding that she doesn’t think that man will be responsible. I’m blown away at the shock these single mothers have in being single mothers, since they had sex while single.
I am too. I used to work with a 26 year old woman who had sex with a 19 year old man, got pregnant, and was willing to raise her baby all by herself because she knew he was irresponsible. It floored me, I was so appalled.
In some ways, I can see how taking a BC pill is a concession, but only in cases where there isn’t a long-term committed relationship. If I were to run off and sleep with some random guy (ugh), I’m sure I would be dead-set on protecting myself first. But in a REAL relationship, it’s up to both people.
Right now, women’s BC is more advanced than men’s. So naturally, it’s more accessible. For couples who don’t have STDs and don’t want to use condoms, the pill works fairly well (safer than condoms, too). Men can help that burden by offsetting the costs. I don’t think a woman should have to pay for BC all on her own. I think BC should be discussed between both partners – how it will be used, who will pay for it, what it will be, etc.
We, as a society, let men run off and blame women as trapping men when they don’t alter their bodies with hormones. That’s crap.
I agree, but hopefully that will be changing soon. Like I said, the male BC pill isn’t quite out there yet, and we’ll see what happens when it’s widely available. I know a special someone I wouldn’t mind taking it… *grin*
I think we have some responsibility for that by accepting less than we deserve: abortion instead of support; contraceptives for actual medical conditions instead of a cure or treatment that addresses the problem.
That’s why feminism is so important.
If we’re not equal, someone must be lower. I don’t see my ability to carry a baby as making my seuxality lower than men’s. Our bodies, male and female, are meant to work together, fit together and produce. Not compete. To say that we have to be able to have sex without engaging our reproductive organs (and shut them down, even) to be equal implies that something’s wrong.
No, I don’t think carrying a baby makes you lower either. What’s important about today is that we as women are working to make everything equal – not just women in the workplace, but women at home. I read a great article in Time a couple weeks ago about stay-at-home dads. It was adorable! You are not unequal as a woman, but people’s perceptions still need to change on the matter.
That’s a sign that something’s wrong. If I were them, I’d hope there was a remedy and seek to find it.
With science, there’s hope. I know a lot of pro-lifers are against stem cell research, but some of that research is going toward reversing infertility by figuring out how the cells are messed up. In that case, it could help improve fertility for many women.
Absolutely not! Sex serves a myriad of awesome purposes, beyond reproduction What I oppose is removing the reproduction part from sex artificially.
Can you explain this better? Do you mean through BC?
“Excuse me, but I would say basing your entire worth as a human being on the fact that you are sexually active is exploitative.
*******************
you have the right to say all the idiotic things you want – ”
TR– are you saying that basing your entire worth as a human being on your sexuality is empowering? And that basing it on other things, like your compassion and intelligence and relationships, is idiotic? I’d like a “yes” or “no”, and skip the insults if you please.
so there is something ‘wrong’ with people who are sexually active and do not have children …. yeah, right
Yes. Working bodies are fertile bodies, at lesat during the childbearing years. If a couple is having sex and not manipulating it with hormones or devices and yet still not getting pregnant, something is physically wrong with one or both of them.
Texas Red,
You just make it soooooo easy…
Its my favorite word when dealing with antichoicers … its also singularly appropriate and completely valid. Its not my fault antichoicers cant offer and intelligent defense for their position, or they think ignorance and stupidity are a valid support for their position.
You do realize that right after you posted this ^ you posted this:
You are such a hypocrite!.
Was that your version of intelligent discourse? NYUK, NYUK, NYUK…
************************
Its certainly better than you going out of your way to look like a hypocritical idiot …..
Hmmm….was that a ‘Yes’ or a ‘No’ to believing in the 10 Commandments?
Posted by: RSD at November 7, 2007 1:07 PM
*****************************************
I dont believe in judeo xtian mythology but assuming that means I cant have a ‘moral compass’ makes you look stupid.
Everyone,
Re: Texas Red…let me know if/when you want her gone…
Posted by: mk at November 7, 2007 1:12 PM
***********************
Such a hypocrite – I truly love it. Antichoicers can say anything they want, no matter how absurd, and you dont twitch. It gives me such pleasure to see what kind of a person typically winds up on the antichoice side.
TR,
*******************************
not according to anyone whose opinion matters … but my comment was sex was for reproduction ‘first and foremost’ and your little tap dance didnt do a thing to alter that fact.
Posted by: TexasRed at November 7, 2007 12:04 PM
OOOOHHHHH…so now you agree with us?
Are you crazy? PP Chicago’s medical director/abortionist made $650,000. That’s alot of money. And since the average cost of an abortion ranges from $300-$600, depending on how far along the unborn baby is, there are major dollars involved.
***********************************************
No, Im not crazy. And MOST abortions are performed by an ob/gyn who performs other health services for women. You mention $650,000 … just what kind of expenses came out of that figure? Just for starters? And just how much does it cost to give birth? You really want to pretend there isnt MORE money to be made if the woman continues the pregnancy?
please stop.
Texas Red – if you want to make a point, you do not have to insult people to get them to listen to you.
Why do you dislike ‘anti-choice’ people so much?
What is your background?
NYUK, NYUK, NYUK…
TexasRed, Sally and Laura-
Our resident 3 Stooges!
What “reality” is that, TR?
That a baby in the mother’s womb is not a baby until it comes out and VOILA, it’s now a BABY?
..and pro-lifers are the ones NOT dealing in reality?
Posted by: RSD at November 7, 2007 1:14 PM
******************************************
Its this kind of incoherent rant which make antichoicers look ridiculous. Regardless of whether a pregnancy is wanted, early in gestation the embryo/fetus is mindless insensate nonviable tissue and cell structure. Its a matter of development. Late in gestation when the fetus has a functional cerebral cortex then its not mindless. When its nervous system is adequately developed then its not insensate. And when its able to survive outside the uterus then its viable. But by then abortion is fundamentally a moot point.
TR,
Such a hypocrite – I truly love it. Antichoicers can say anything they want, no matter how absurd, and you dont twitch. It gives me such pleasure to see what kind of a person typically winds up on the antichoice side.
I’m glad that we bring you joy. However, even with all the absurd comments you make, (and those, like the stars, can’t be counted) the reason I would delete your comments has nothing to do with their innaccuracy, ridiculousness or lack of intelligent thought…it would have to do with the fact that you are breaking board rules. The same rules everyone else must abide by.
The only reason I haven’t banned you yet is that you provide so much entertainment, and continue to make the pro choice side look bad. It wouldn’t surprise me to find out that they are flocking by the dozens to our side just to separate themselves from you…
Ladies…just say the word. The hour is late, and I grow weary…
TR,
So if a woman has a problem with fertility at 40 you want to try to pretend it *must be* because she took the pill for 20 years and not just because she is 40 and its the natural order of things?
Just as long as you go on pretending it isn’t…
Posted by: mk at November 7, 2007 1:17 PM
**************************************
Could someone translate MKs ‘Gibbering Idiot’ into English here?
RSD – LOL
PCer’s believe that we just appear out of thin air. So why do we need A&P classes and biology classes? Afterall unborn babies don’t exsist and are a figment of our imangination, or just cells. Wow I wish I had knwn that when my children were poking me in the ribs, and jumping on my bladder at 2am, and my body changed. I’m glad to know it was all in my head – don’t you think? (wink)
I’m really quite bothered that everyone has to act this way. I really believe pro-choicers and pro-lifers can have intelligent conversations without resorting to idiocy. But because of all these insults, we stop realizing how many similarities we have and focus only on the differences.
For example, how many of you like cats? My cat is sleeping on my lap and his tongue is sticking out. It’s really cute.
Can we agree that cats are cute? Sheesh.
“Excuse me, but I would say basing your entire worth as a human being on the fact that you are sexually active is exploitative.
*******************
you have the right to say all the idiotic things you want – ”
TR– are you saying that basing your entire worth as a human being on your sexuality is empowering? And that basing it on other things, like your compassion and intelligence and relationships, is idiotic? I’d like a “yes” or “no”, and skip the insults if you please.
Posted by: EH at November 7, 2007 1:21 PM
**********************************
No, what is stupid is assuming that if a woman uses contraceptives and is sexually active but doesnt want to have a child she must be basing her worth as a human being on her sexuality. Thats an incredibly stupid invention on your part.
let’s not respond if TR is still on a tirade.
If we stop her thread, she’ll just cry from the rafters that those ‘anti-choicers’ are vindictive.
TR – play nice, or we won’t play.
so there is something ‘wrong’ with people who are sexually active and do not have children …. yeah, right
Yes. Working bodies are fertile bodies, at lesat during the childbearing years. If a couple is having sex and not manipulating it with hormones or devices and yet still not getting pregnant, something is physically wrong with one or both of them.
Posted by: Jacqueline at November 7, 2007 1:21 PM
**************************************
Absolutely laughable.
TR,
Are you actually retyping all of our posts? Aren’t you cutting and pasting them? No wonder you’re so irritated.
I can explain how to do it. It’s a lot easier.
NYUK, NYUK, NYUK…
TexasRed, Sally and Laura-
Our resident 3 Stooges!
Posted by: Jacqueline at November 7, 2007 1:29 PM
************************************
Its not our fault that you fall on your face every time you try to defend your position.
JoyfromIL, great idea. Edyt, we are both pro-cat. How’s that for common ground?
MK- according to Jacque, she made a rational post once, earlier…yep:
Why would anyone think ‘Make up your own mind’ exploits anyone? What part of ‘Do what you think is best’ exploits women? What part of ‘Its up to you’ exploits women? And what about ‘the abortion industry’? To a large extent thats an invention of the antichoice side. Look at Planned Parenthood – for every 3 women who have an abortion 97 women go for other health care issues INCLUDING contraceptives. PP has done more to REDUCE the number of abortions in the US than all the ‘sidewalk counselors’ and ‘christian crisis pregnancy centers’ in this country. Most doctors who perform abortions are ob/gyns who offer a full array of womens health care and gestation and birth is going to make a doctor a lot more money than an abortion.
Congratulations, TexasRed! Although what you said is complete and total bullsh!t, it actually makes a coherent, declarative statement! It also lacks your typical buzzwords and catchphrase epithets!
I’m proud of you!
Posted by: Jacqueline at November 7, 2007 12:31 PM
…give the breast cancer people a dollar!!
TR,
you dont lose patience with the antichoicers no matter what they say – again thank you for being such a hypocrite
Really? Tell that to Zeke, Jasper, Flynn, Heather and a host of others that I have asked to tone it down…
You just don’t notice because it’s so rare that they lower themselves to name calling and insults.
please stop.
Texas Red – if you want to make a point, you do not have to insult people to get them to listen to you.
Why do you dislike ‘anti-choice’ people so much?
What is your background?
Posted by: joyfromIllinois at November 7, 2007 1:27 PM
*************************************
I find it amusing that you make no comment about antichoicers insulting comments – typical hypocricy. And I dont ‘dislike’ antichoicers. I find you amusing. If nothing else you remind me of how wise it is to be on the pro choice side. I couldnt care less if you choose to continue a pregnancy. I respect your right to do what you know is best. But youre incapable of showing that same respect to others. You are certain that you know what is ‘best’ for total strangers and what they think, feel, believe, need, want or like couldnt possibly matter as much as what YOU want. I find this self absorption, egocentricity, control freak misogyny and megalomania vastly amusing.
TR –
It cost me $3000-$5000 to give birth. This included the hospital 3 day hospital stay, delivery, all my office visits before I delivered, I went natural so I didn’t have drugs, all my baby’s tests, diapers etc., all my tests etc. So My OB/GYN did not make the lion’s share of profit. They hospital did. And on top of it I brought home my amazing children. I know many ob/gyn’s they do not make $650,000 a year!!! And the majortiy do not do abortions.
And most abortions ARE NOT done in a hospital or ob/gyn office! There done in PP clinics or privately owned abortion clinics. That’s why PP is the leading provider of abortions. So again abortion is all about MONEY!!
It’s a start. ;)
I mean, a lot of people think because I’m pro-choice I’m automatically a liberal Democrat, but I have a lot of right-side leanings, some on the left, you know, I have a lot of opinions.
I think we as a people have become too divided on the issues and have stopped seeing each other as people. In this forum, I’m automatically branded on the bad side, in a pro-choice forum, you all are on the bad side, and no matter where you go, there’s no safe zone for being people. And I think that’s why these dicussions all come out sounding like fifteen year olds squabbling over a candy bar.
Sorry, the last TR post was mine.
The only reason I haven’t banned you yet is that you provide so much entertainment, and continue to make the pro choice side look bad. It wouldn’t surprise me to find out that they are flocking by the dozens to our side just to separate themselves from you…
*******************
MK youre a hypocrite of the lowest order.
That you need to tell yourself lies simply underscores your innate lack of integrity.
Tara,
…winking right back atcha!…
I guess I am more disturbed by the fact that people actually believe and defend all the lies and half-truths that PP and their ilk made so many years ago…
RSD – LOL
PCer’s believe that we just appear out of thin air. So why do we need A&P classes and biology classes? Afterall unborn babies don’t exsist and are a figment of our imangination, or just cells. Wow I wish I had knwn that when my children were poking me in the ribs, and jumping on my bladder at 2am, and my body changed. I’m glad to know it was all in my head – don’t you think? (wink)
Posted by: Tara at November 7, 2007 1:31 PM
*********************
Where in the world would anyone come up with something this absurd and ridiculous?
Edyt-
I think cats are cute! Just look at mine:
Man, my floor needing swiffering.
Do you have a picture?
TR,
Are you actually retyping all of our posts? Aren’t you cutting and pasting them? No wonder you’re so irritated.
I can explain how to do it. It’s a lot easier.
Posted by: mk at November 7, 2007 1:35 PM
***********************
Looking like an idiot is your only recourse, isnt it? Why do you need the lie that Im irritated? Since I type at better than 100 wpm – or did last time I was tested – I really dont have any trouble at all with these posts.
TR – how can you make such judgments about people you don’t know?
and the name-calling and insults should stop from everyone. just don’t take the bait.
Most pro-life people respect people plenty – that’s why we cook in soup kitchens, give to the poor, bring women to their doctor’s appointments, and help people in any other way we can.
Speaking for myself – the pro-lifers I have contact with have helped others, with NO JUDGEMENT – in more ways than I can count. These people are generous, loving and truly care – even if circumstances are not perfect.
If you do not know pro-lifers like these, then hang around a different crowd.
TR – play nice, or we won’t play.
***************
why dont you try throwing yourself onto the floor, drumming your heels on the carpet and holding your breath until your face turns blue -?
And while we’re talking about cuteness, here’s my dog:
From A “Far Side” cartoon..
What the man says to his dog:
“GINGER! How many times have I told you to stay out of the trash! Bad, bad dog Ginger!”
What the dog hears:
“GINGER! Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, Ginger.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What Texas Red says:
“No, what is stupid is assuming that if a woman uses contraceptives and is sexually active but doesnt want to have a child she must be basing her worth as a human being on her sexuality. Thats an incredibly stupid invention on your part.
Its certainly better than you going out of your way to look like a hypocritical idiot …..
Stupid people make stupid assumptions – you can make all the stupid assumptions you want.
Thank you. You never fail to remind me what hypocritical bad tempered chiennes wind up on the antichoice side. All you can come up with is something as stupid as this. Again, thank you for reminding me that Im on the right side of this discussion.
What we hear:
“Blah blah blah blah blah stupid blah blah blah idiot blah blah blah blah moron blah blah blah blah stupid…
This is Basil (pronounced “Bah-sill,” like the British name).
You guys are still fighting after seeing my cute kitten? You people are made of STONE!!!
If you got pregnant then everything else you were doing would be put on hold regardless of what it did to you or your life. You prove my point.
Posted by: TexasRed at November 7, 2007 12:33 PM
As someone who has had 6 children I can assure you that I didn’t go into stasis when my pregnancies started. Everything stayed exactly the same barring a doctor’s appointment once a month. After the delivery I had a nice few weeks vacation, then back to the same old same old…
Oops, Edyt. The picture didn’t work. :(
I wanna see…
Joy,
I’ve met both pro-lifers and pro-choicers who have done charitable acts. I think people are for the most part good. Our definitions on what is morally acceptable is different though. But that doesn’t make anyone necessarily wrong and it certainly doesn’t mean one person is better/nicer than the other.
Stop fighting and kiss the screen already!
Edyt, I don’t own a cat. My neighbor’s cat likes to spend all day in my yard. She brings me “treats” like dead mice. She cries at my front door until I come out. What is weird about it is I have never fed her or let her into my house. We are great pals though.
Does that work?
Edyt – absolutely correct! I was responding to what TR said to me about being disrespectful and selfish. Thanks…
I don’t understand why you have to get so worked up over the birth control pill. It’s not affecting you in any way, only the woman who takes it. Why stick your nose in somebody else’s business, ESPECIALLY in a place where it’s probably unwanted? If a woman wants to take birth control knowing the possible risks, more power to her. If you’re going to get huffy over birth control pills, you should be also looking to get rid of Viagra.
Some people simply don’t want to have kids in the here in now. Why not respect that? If anything, it prevents the abortions that you all hate so much by preventing unwanted pregnancy.
In other news, I helped my friends complete TWO Fenton’s Challanges yesterday and still feel a bit sick. =P (Fenton’s Challange = banana split with three 1-pound scoops of ice cream with three different kinds of syrup, whipped cream, nuts, cherries, the works, and must be finished in 20 minutes.)
“Our definitions on what is morally acceptable is different though. But that doesn’t make anyone necessarily wrong and it certainly doesn’t mean one person is better/nicer than the other”
—————————
AH, yes….the heart of Moral Relativism…
Didn’t the (then) Cardinal Ratzinger talk about the danger of moral relativism in this “modern” times.
It cost me $3000-$5000 to give birth. This included the hospital 3 day hospital stay, delivery, all my office visits before I delivered, I went natural so I didn’t have drugs, all my baby’s tests, diapers etc., all my tests etc. So My OB/GYN did not make the lion’s share of profit. They hospital did. And on top of it I brought home my amazing children. I know many ob/gyn’s they do not make $650,000 a year!!! And the majortiy do not do abortions.
And most abortions ARE NOT done in a hospital or ob/gyn office! There done in PP clinics or privately owned abortion clinics. That’s why PP is the leading provider of abortions. So again abortion is all about MONEY!!
********************
PP has clinics in EVERY state. Whining that they are ‘the largest abortion provider’ ignores the simple fact that no other health care provider can say that. And it also ignores all the other health care they offer. Most doctors who perform abortions are ob/gyns and abortion is not the only thing they do. A typical abortion is $350. You admitted even natural childbirth was $3000 to $5000 – thats a lot more than $350. ALL health care is about money when you get right down to it. And PP gives a whole lot more health care to needy women than just abortion.
I love kitties!!
Edyt-
howcutehowcutehowcutehowcutehowcutehowcutehowcutehowcute!!!
Laura,
Congratulations, TexasRed! Although what you said is complete and total bullsh!t, it actually makes a coherent, declarative statement! It also lacks your typical buzzwords and catchphrase epithets!
*
Posted by: Jacqueline at November 7, 2007 12:31 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*
But was it ostentatious?
If you are one of the three stooges then at least your Moe…the brains of the outfit…lol
You’re right, RSD.
Keep on hatin’, then. No better way but to blame and hate and judge…
What we hear:
“Blah blah blah blah blah stupid blah blah blah idiot blah blah blah blah moron blah blah blah blah stupid…
***************
Your problems with reading comprehension and retention are well established.
If anything, it prevents the abortions that you all hate so much by preventing unwanted pregnancy.
Actually, birth control pills are abortive.
How do you post pictures? 0.0
Lol, my cat brings me presents- but she’s an inside cat. She prefers to find dirty socks or underwear and leave them in front of my bedroom door.
Jacque…no they aren’t. They help thicken the mucus around your cervix, preventing sperm from getting through to meet with the egg. It’s like a barrier method, except with mucus.
Jacqueline, do you mean the morning after pill? BC pills don’t cause abortions, they prevent conception. Unless life begins before conception… but that makes the PL argument a lot weirder.
“Actually, birth control pills are abortive.”
Uhhhh…I don’t know what kind of birth control pills you’re talking about, but I’m positive that isn’t true.
It prevents eggs from being released. How is that abortive?
Basil catches flies out of mid-air. We don’t have mice, but he could probably catch those. He’s my little hunter. :)
But he doesn’t bring them to me as presents… he just… eats them. :\
Keep on hatin’, then. No better way but to blame and hate and judge…
Posted by: Edyt
——————————–
I didn’t say that…I was stating that there are moral issues that cannot be compromised…like Abortion, either you’re for it or against it.
We hate the sin NOT the sinner….
actually the BC and any other hormones works in a 3rd way – to change the uterine lining so the embryo doesn’t implant.
That is an early chemical abortion.
And of course, some people (and PP) redefine a pregnancy as starting at implantation, so they can say with a very straight face that BC doesn’t impact pregnancy.
But that is like calling the sky blue with pink and black plaid. Redefining something doesn’t change what it is.
yes – any product using hormones works in the third way too. Just look at the medical insert with any hormonal product.
Jacque…no they aren’t. They help thicken the mucus around your cervix, preventing sperm from getting through to meet with the egg. It’s like a barrier method, except with mucus.
Posted by: Erin at November 7, 2007 1:59 PM
Actually Erin you should ask your OB/GYN, I’ve asked several and all have said they prevent implantation NOT fertilization. It’s very well known, but also swept under the rug.
If you got pregnant then everything else you were doing would be put on hold regardless of what it did to you or your life. You prove my point.
Posted by: TexasRed at November 7, 2007 12:33 PM
As someone who has had 6 children I can assure you that I didn’t go into stasis when my pregnancies started. Everything stayed exactly the same barring a doctor’s appointment once a month. After the delivery I had a nice few weeks vacation, then back to the same old same old…
Posted by: Kristen at November 7, 2007 1:49 PM
************************
thats not how its going to be for everyone – but if you had been told to stay in bed for four months or you’d miscarry what would you have done?
Jacque…no they aren’t. They help thicken the mucus around your cervix, preventing sperm from getting through to meet with the egg. It’s like a barrier method, except with mucus
They do that- they also inhibit ovulation- but a third mechanism should both altering mucus and inhibiting ovulation fail, is that the pill makes the endometrium so thin that the newly concieved human being can not implant. He/She then dies.
Jacqueline, do you mean the morning after pill?
The morning after pill is no more than a concentrated dose of the birth control pills. Taking a handfull of daily pills can have the same effect (not that I recommend that).
BC pills don’t cause abortions, they prevent conception.
Sometimes. Sometimes conception occurs and the pill prevents implantation. That’s why the pill is an abortive.
Unless life begins before conception… but that makes the PL argument a lot weirder.
No, life begins at conception. As I mentioned above, the pill can kill a newly-conceived life by preventing implantation.
TR – I stayed in bed to try to save my child
RSD,
Moral issues change. Infanticide used to be acceptable. Debated, but not illegal. Now we have abortion. What next? We debate whether or not men can masturbate because they’re killing off precious sperm life?
That IS what my OB/GYN told me. I asked him. The morning after pill prevents implantation. Not hormonal birth control.
It prevents eggs from being released. How is that abortive?
That is not abortive. Preventing implantation IS abortive.
It’s sad that so many people that take the pill are completely ignorant to what they’re putting in their bodies.
Hey Edyt.
“BC pills don’t cause abortions, they prevent conception.”
Well, most of the time, yes. However there are three mechanism by which the pill works. The standard mechanism is by keeping an egg from releasing. The second is by “slowing the sperm down” and making it harder for it to travel through the fallopian tube. Both of those are straight up contraceptive. But the third is to thin the endometrial wall i.e. the uterus. This makes it difficult for a possibly fertilized egg to implant. If the egg cannot implant, it starves and dies. It is certainly known that there are sometimes breakthrough ovulations, so this is a possibility, albeit a very small one, but it is real nonetheless. So that is one of Jacque’s (and my) concerns with hormonal contraceptives. God love you, Edyt.
That IS what my OB/GYN told me. I asked him. The morning after pill prevents implantation. Not hormonal birth control.
Read your packet insert, Erin. Read a Physician’s Desk Reference. Those that make the pill explain that they are abortive.
Moral issues change. Infanticide used to be acceptable. Debated, but not illegal.
Public opinion changes, but morality never does. What’s wrong yesterday is wrong today and will be wrong tomorrow.
Erin,
…give the breast cancer people a dollar!!
Will do.
Moral issues change. Infanticide used to be acceptable. Debated, but not illegal. Now we have abortion. What next? We debate whether or not men can masturbate because they’re killing off precious sperm life?
Posted by: Edyt
——————–
Just to clarify…it’s ISSUES that change NOT the morality behind it…
Slavery was wrong even when it was legal…same as abortion…
We debate whether or not men can masturbate because they’re killing off precious sperm life?
Sperm is not human life. Eggs are not human life. When they meet, human life begins.
Also, a vast majority of fertilized eggs never implant. Your body performs those kind of ‘abortions’ all on its own. On a regular basis. Before you even realize you’re pregnant. Any of our married ladies here who don’t use BC? You’ve probably on several occasions just spit out a fertilized egg. You baby killers!
Jacqueline…you just beat me by a minute..you must be using more than two fingers to type!
Erin – but there is a vast difference for the miscarriages to come naturally, versus purposely done at the hand of the abortionist.
one is nature, the other grave sin.
Edyt,
We can only control ourselves. But if you ask you will see that I have many friendships here with people on “the other side”…
Erin, Lyssie, Doug, JKeller, Jess, JM, Midnite…
One day, I’d love to be able to add you to that list.
We’ve worked hard to get past the differences. And to learn about each other on many, many levels.
Texas Red just distracted us for a moment. You’re right tho, it’s best to ignore her. I read once that the opposite of love is not hate, it’s indifference. Yell at me, curse me, insult me, but PLEASE don’t ignore me!
I love your idea of ignoring her.
“…but a third mechanism should both altering mucus and inhibiting ovulation fail, is that the pill makes the endometrium so thin that the newly concieved human being can not implant. ”
Well, unless it’s implanted into the uterine wall, it isn’t a pregnancy, and therefore not an abortion. But I see where you’re coming from, even if I do disagree.
The researchers saw a rise of 20 to 30% in arterial plaque in two big arteries – the carotid in the neck and the femoral in the leg – for each decade of use.
Whew! Glad I have a copper IUD.
But seriously, I bet most women would prefer a little extra plaque in their arteries to giving birth every year like Michelle Duggar.
Women are so, so stupid, gullible, and exploited.
Ah, the whole anti-abortion stance all makes sense, now.
Edyt,
This is Basil (pronounced “Bah-sill,” like the British name).
Like in Fawlty Towers?
Jacquie,
What’s your guys name?
thats not how its going to be for everyone – but if you had been told to stay in bed for four months or you’d miscarry what would you have done?
Lauren did that, and now we have Holden:
I’m picture-posting happy today!
I’m sure I’m not the only one, but I’m amazed at the amount of anger there is surrounding the abortion debate. Personally, I think a lot of the anger surrounding abortion is not really about abortion, but something else, as shown here, and it’s something different for different people. Issues with mothers, fathers, boyfriends, husbands, teachers, politicians, children, etc. Take time if you’re angry to try to figure out why, and talk to someone you trust. Anger is a horrible, debilitating emotion that you don’t have to live with. We can’t solve the world’s problems if we don’t solve our own first. Women should be supporting other women, not verbally bashing each other. May God bless everyone.
The Memorare –
Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary,
that never was it known, that anyone who fled to thy protection,
implored thy help, or sought thy intercession, was left unaided.
Inspired by this confidence I fly unto Thee, O Virgin of Virgins, my Mother. To Thee I come, before Thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in Thy mercy hear and answer me. Amen
“It’s sad that so many people that take the pill are completely ignorant to what they’re putting in their bodies.”
I don’t take birth control, but thanks for assuming.
thats not how its going to be for everyone – but if you had been told to stay in bed for four months or you’d miscarry what would you have done?
Posted by: TexasRed at November 7, 2007 2:06 PM
I’ve had two friends that were on bed rest basically their entire pregnancies. I forget the circumstances of the one but the other had an incompetent cervix and even though she had a cervical stitch, the doctors thought it best. Each of them would tell you that it was completely worth it for their healthy babies but I don’t think you’d agree with them.
“But seriously, I bet most women would prefer a little extra plaque in their arteries to giving birth every year like Michelle Duggar.”
————————–
If you check the Duggar family website…they are still open to life…”as many as the Lord wants them to have”…
I understand she had a miscarriage early in life due to the use of the pill nad vowed never to do so again…
Stephanie – the body recognizes the new-life at conception at that instant. lots of hormonal signals go on – even before the new human life implants.
Just because you can’t feel it, see it, or measure it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
In fact, science overwhelmingly knows that that little human is exactly that! Little and human. and where it is it doesn’t change that fact.
The main thing is that the body knows this, for sure! And even if the little human is not implanted yet, your body knows it’s pregnant.
Erin, you’re going to die. Everyone is going to die. That’s nature.
However, when someone goes about to CAUSE the death of another human being: that’s murder.
My losing a baby due to circumstances beyond my control doesn’t make me a baby killer. Laying spread eagle while someone you paid hundreds of dollars to goes into your womb with a suction machine and pulls out your child in pieces- does make you a baby killer.
Well, unless it’s implanted into the uterine wall, it isn’t a pregnancy, and therefore not an abortion
The definition of pregnancy was changed because of abortifacients. They couldn’t be legal because abortion (terminating a pregnancy) was illegal, so they made that arbitrary change. The human lives are killed all the same, no matter what you call it. It’s that we pro-lifers are against. Not terminating pregnancies (all pregnancies terminate somehow- miscarriage, birth). It’s killing babies that we oppose.
Regarding the quote of the day…
In Illinois there is no law like the one stated. CVS pharmacists are not required to dispense the morning after pill or any form of contraception if they choose not to, they do however have to tell you when you can come and get the prescription from a pharmacist who will dispense it. Osco is the same way.
Walgreens does require their pharmacists to fill these prescriptions – and that’s why I will not shop there. So much for “choice.”
I’m sure I’m not the only one, but I’m amazed at the amount of anger there is surrounding the abortion debate.
Gabby, damn right I’m angry. I’m angry that they’re killing defenseless babies. That makes me angry.
They’re angry because we’re attempting to cramp their sex lives and insist that they take responsibility to birthing the lives they create.
It’s sad that so many people that take the pill are completely ignorant to what they’re putting in their bodies.
I didn’t assume. But look at your ignorance of what they pill does and the ignorance of most pill users- I can generalize that to the population of pill users at large.
Ok, let’s be perfectly clear here, no one is going to die from lack of sex. You could be abstinate your entire life and be healthy as a horse.
The ONLY measureable purpose of sex is to reproduce. I have no problem with people having sex recreationally, but I sure as hell DO have a problem when these same people say “Oh, I didn’t have sex to get pregnant…I just wanted to have fun…I shouldn’t be responsible for my REPRODUCTIVE actions!” Yeah, that upsets me.
If you absolutely,positively without a shadow of a doubt do not want to have children…DON’T HAVE SEX. It’s really very, very simple. If you absolutely,positively without a shadow of a doubt do not want to have children, and yet engage in sexual REPRODUCTION, don’t whine and complain when you end up reproducing.
You can get your odds down fairly low, but as long as your are engaging in sexual REPRODUCTION, you have a risk of actually reproducing. It’s just the way it works. It is absurd.
It would be like me saying “well, I like shooting my gun, it makes me feel swell” I take lots of procautions like only putting in one bullet, but gee whittickers, I shot someone! Oops! Well that wasn’t my fault, I only shoot guns because the act of pulling the trigger makes me happy, I don’t want to actually hit anyone with the bullet!”
Tough. Guns are made to shoot things, just like sexual reproduction is “made” (or evolved or whatever you would like) to reproduce our population. You might not *want* to reproduce, just like you didn’t *want* to shoot someone, but the fact of the matter is that engaging in the activity, you run the risk of affecting the designed result regardless of intention.
So, yes, to answer the question of anyone belly aching about me wanting to squash their sex lives, I DO want you to be abstinate if are so closed to children that you would kill any that your actions create. I don’t think that is too much to ask. It would be negligent for you to continue to engage in a behavior that has the potential to create life that you will surely destroy. Just as it would be negligent for you to go around haphazardly pulling the trigger on your gun. I believe the term is “negligent homicide.”
Erin,
Out of curiousity, why did you bring up birth control being an abortfacient with your doctor?
Why would it have mattered to you?
And the IUD is an abortifacient also.
Kristen-
Bummer! I love Walgreens. I guess I’m changing pharmacies…
Gabby- I love anger. Anger is beautiful. It’s probably the most powerful emotion we have. It’s what makes us willing to fight to bring around changes and what motivates us when we see injustice. An apathetic person, someone who can’t get angry, what makes anything worth it for them?
Some things make me furious. For example, the fact that atheists are among the most prejudiced against minority in America. The fact that if I fall in love with another girl, I can’t marry her. The fact that I have friends in Iraq who could die at any time fighting because our administration is foolish.
That’s what makes me angry. Different things make different people angry. Abortion upsets the PLers here, makes them angry. John L gets mighty angry when we talk about the Catholic church. HisMan gets angry when anything comes up about his daughter(I miss Cameron).
Anger motivates us to try and change things. If we didn’t ever have anger…we’d still have slavery. Women still wouldn’t be able to vote. It can be responsible for some nasty things too, like school shootings, but it is a weapon. People can use it for what they choose. The side that is more angry tends to get their change- Viva la Revolution!
Erin,
Accidental death and homicide are two very different things, even if the result is the same (a dead person).
I’ve had to be on bed rest. I’ve had to take medicine that really stinks during pregnancy. I’ve even had to *gasp* give up chocolate bars due to gestational diabetes.
Given a choice, I’d do it all again. I certainly wouldn’t kill any of my children.
“lots of hormonal signals go on – even before the new human life implants.”
I’m pretty sure that’s not true either. I’ve never heard about anything of the sort in bio classes (admittedly I have not taken a lot). I’ll look it up, or if you could provide a handy link that’d be cool too.
I always heard the hormone cascade beginning at implantation – that’s the signal for your body to NOT menstruate.
Anyway, time to section some brains.
Jacque, I know it s^cks because they are the only one around here with a drive thru window, and since I normally have no less than three kids with me it’s much more inconvenient to go somewhere else. But hey, ya gotta do what you gotta do…
I just have to avoid the candy aisle when I bring the rascals. :)
Gestation and birth are more dangerous than abortion?!!! GIVE ME A BREAK! You have got to be freaking kidding me. Maybe you could give me some REAL statistics to back this outrageous statement up that I already know is a FALLACY! I seriously can not even believe that people buy that load of crap that you’re trying to pass off as truth. Maybe in underdeveloped countries it would be…but HERE..HERE in AMERICA. Yeah freaking right. I have heard a couple of PCer’s say this already and it just makes me laugh really. Do you even know what the most common cause of death in a pregnant woman is? HOMICIDE! Nothing natural caused by the gestation or birth..just good old fashioned murder ladies and gentlemen.
And on a side note: Everybody’s animals are cuties!! How do you post pics on here?
Kristen- then they should change their line of work. What’s going to be next, pharmacists deciding they don’t like ANY birth control? Choosing not to allow women access to condoms, or the Ring, or the Pill? Dispensing medication is their job. If they cannot indiscriminately do their job, they’ve chosen the wrong line of work. If you don’t want to work with kids, don’t become a pediatrician. If you don’t believe in God, don’t become a preacher. If you can’t give out medicines, don’t become a pharmacist.
MK- I like knowing how my medications work?
Hey, that’s MY Holden :) And to answer your question (even though my sweet Jacque already did) I DID stay on bed rest for an entire pregnancy.
I was pregnant with twins, but lost one at about 8 weeks. This caused me to bleed and put me on partial bed rest. Then at about 14 weeks I started hemoraging due to partial placental abrupta. I was then placed on total bed rest. Then my water broke at 23 weeks and I was hospitalized for 7 weeks and pumped full of about 8 drugs a day.
Would I do it again? In a heart beat. So to answer your question, TexasRed, I would do ANYTHING to save my child from death. I only wish that there had been something I could have done to save the children that I’ve lost to miscarriage.
*headdesk* Maternal death is at least 10 times more common than deaths related to abortion. It’s a fact. I wish you guys would just give that one up. Cancer kills more people than heroin and it doesn’t mean that heroin is better. It’s just a fact.
Erin, first condoms are not dispensed by pharmacists. Any Tom, Dick, or Amy can go buy them. Second, no one should be prohibited from a position because they don’t want to aid in an abortion. Which, very clearly, the morning after pill, IUD, etc. is and, maybe less well known, so is the Pill.
Speaking of Texas Red…Edyt, you’re plan of action (or should I say “inaction”) seems to have worked…
Thanks.
Really? Tell that to Zeke, Jasper, Flynn, Heather and a host of others that I have asked to tone it down…
You just don’t notice because it’s so rare that they lower themselves to name calling and insults.
*************
And youve begged others to tell you to ban them? As for antichoicers ‘lowering’ themselves – you prove its an every day – several times an hour if not minute occurance
Erin, what would be the causes of this maternal death..because as I have stated and it is commonly known..the number one cause of death in a pregnant woman is homicide, which has nothing to do with the process of gestation or birth. Abortion-related death however directly links back to what caused the death: Abortion.
Ahhh bummer, I spoke too soon…gotta go pick up the kids so can’t really answer that post…
TR – I stayed in bed to try to save my child
Posted by: joyfromIllinois at November 7, 2007 2:08 PM
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Thats the point – you put everything else in your life on hold to continue the pregnancy. What if another woman isnt willing to do that or cant? You try to pretend she has to be ‘wrong’ for not seeing things the same way you do. She isnt. You both have the right to do what YOU EACH thing is best.
And youve begged others to tell you to ban them? As for antichoicers ‘lowering’ themselves – you prove its an every day – several times an hour if not minute occurance
She’s baaaaaaaaack.
What if another woman isnt willing to do that or cant?
What about pregnant women that ride rollercoasters, drink and smoke-because they’re not willing to compromise their gratification for the protection of their babies?
I know what I call such women.
You’re right, TexasRed…some women SHOULD have the right to be weak and cowardly if they so choose. That’s the PC motto: It’s okay to run away and be a coward and not stand up for what is right, because it’s your CHOICE. They prey upon the weak, the scared, the confused, because it’s easier to sway someone of a weak mind than it is to sway someone as strong-minded as Lauren. I have wayyy more admiration for the people who are strong and stand up in the face of adversity than I do for people who run away with their tail between their legs. Come on seriously…if you’re woman enough to get pregnant, be woman enough to have/take care of/or give your baby up for adoption. THOSE women I would be proud to stand next to because I know they have what it really takes to be successful. Strength, integrity, and character. That’s all that really matters in the end..What kind of person you are and if you remained true to what is right no matter what happened. Lauren, I applaud you..that sounded like a tough pregnancy. You rock girl.
“if you’re woman enough to get pregnant, be woman enough to have/take care of/or give your baby up for adoption. ”
Does this apply to rape victims too? How about a 12-year old? If she gets pregnant, she should be “woman” enough to give birth too, right?
Choice is not about being weak or cowardly. It’s about doing what’s best for YOU.
TR, I was a college student with a full ride scholarship when I was on bed rest. Deciding to birth my child cut my scholarship to the point that I could no longer afford to stay at my school (A private, liberal arts college). I most certainly “couldn’t afford” to continue my pregnancy by the world’s standards. When things started going south, I could easily have said “well, that’s the way the cookie crumbles” and went right on with my life.
That option didn’t even cross my mind. When my water broke we thought for sure we would lose our child. When the doctor told us that there was something that could be done to prolong the pregnancy, we jumped on it. My husband and I both found it unfathomable that they even suggested the second “choice” to do nothing and allow my son to die. I can not imagine letting my child die without a fight simply because I wanted to keep up my active lifestyle.
Bedrest is hard, but there are great support groups ran by women who have been there. It’s so sad how distorted the idea of pregnancy has become. I had just about the worst pregnancy imaginable, but it was more than worth the pain and boredom. I mean, this is a child’s life we’re talking about. During pregnancy you’re given the unique opportunity to actually give of yourself to ease your child’s suffering. My son takes a shot every single day. Every time I stick him with that needle I wish there were some way I could take it for him.
After birth you lose the opportunity to shoulder the pains of life. I believe it is a blessing that we are able to shield them for a short time. I don’t think everyone should be forced to do everything humanly possible to continue a troubled pregnancy, but I think that we should be required to give the minimum care of not directly killing our children. It seems,however, that asking even this is an affront to some people’s overwhelming sense of self. It is just all very sad.
Yeah, Stephanie, forget about what’s best for the baby. As long as you’re doing what’s best for yourSELF..who cares about a baby.
Stephanie, that particular statement doesn’t apply to rape victims but there is an innocent life involved and they should not be murdered for the crime of another. If there is one good thing that comes out of a rape it’s a child (which is very, very, very, few cases.) Why would you compound the trauma of the rape with the killing of the innocent?
And as for the 12 year old, yes. I have a 12 year old and she would absolutely give birth were she to get pregnant. Not that she ever would because we keep her in a cage in the basement. ;) But should she, she needs to live with the consequences of her actions. And before all you PCs go off on me about punishing her, I don’t consider giving birth a punishment, but I do consider forcing (or even accepting) an abortion a life sentence of depression and anger.
Does this apply to rape victims too? How about a 12-year old? If she gets pregnant, she should be “woman” enough to give birth too, right?
And you’ve just described less than 1% of abortions.
It’s about doing what’s best for YOU.
Yeah, YOU, YOU YOU YOU. Thanks for admitting what everyone knows- that abortion is about selfishness.
Lauren is a perfectly example of a Godly woman, who puts others before herself.
Who would you rather be in the care of? Lauren? or TexasRed?
There’s a quote in a song that is pro-life called “Happy Birthday” that says it best to me. Everyone should listen to this song..it made me cry..it’s called “Happy Birthday” by Flipsyde..it’s hip-hop which shocks me cause hip-hop artists don’t typically talk about these topics let alone take a pro-life stance on them. But it’s a great song.
“Choosing our life over your life meant your death.”
thats not how its going to be for everyone – but if you had been told to stay in bed for four months or you’d miscarry what would you have done?
Posted by: TexasRed at November 7, 2007 2:06 PM
I’ve had two friends that were on bed rest basically their entire pregnancies. I forget the circumstances of the one but the other had an incompetent cervix and even though she had a cervical stitch, the doctors thought it best. Each of them would tell you that it was completely worth it for their healthy babies but I don’t think you’d agree with them.
Posted by: Kristen at November 7, 2007 2:20 PM
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Why do you make that assumption? They have every right to do what they think is best for their circumstances. EVERY woman has that right which is something YOU refuse to face. I dont have any problem accepting that a woman would want to continue a pregnancy. I did it twice. But you cant face the fact that a woman may choose to NOT continue a pregnancy without insisting she is wrong, she is immoral, she is a murderess, ad infinitum ad nauseum. The pro choice position has NO problem accepting the choice to continue a pregnancy.
Jacque, what a horrid thought! In the “care” of TR?
Note: I put myself in the care of Lauren all the time. The last time I was in need, she lent me her car.
As a general rule, in the company of pro-lifers is the safest place you can be. If you need food, water, clothing or shelter, you can count on them. If you need care, they’ll care for you.
As opposed to the company of pro-choicers who first think of themselves- what’s best for themselves.
Fetus does not equal baby, Elizabeth. I care more about myself than an embryo that I don’t want.
Elizabeth, thank you. I probably sound a bit more altruistic than is the reality. I just couldn’t imagine NOT doing everything possible to save our son. We were literally flabergasted when we were presented with our options.
Option A) We can transfer you to a higher level hospital where they will start a magsulf drip to stop your labour and prolong your pregnancy.
Option B) We can deliever your baby now and he will die.
Erm…We’ll go with option A! By the way, they were able to stop my labour and my son was born at 31 weeks and is now quite healthy (though quite small, which is why he gets the shots).
In response to TR about rape victims ect.
Though rape victims had no part in the act of creating the child, they are none the less given the sole responsibility of the child’s life. I do not believe compounding the violence they experienced with further violence is in any way benevolent. These women need support and outreach, but I do not believe they should be given the right to kill another. Doing so opens a very dangerous can of worms in which we may harm someone because of the actions of someone else.
I care more about myself than an embryo that I don’t want.
Posted by: Stephanie at November 7, 2007 3:26 PM
This could also be written as:
I __________myself____________ I____________.
The pro choice position has NO problem accepting the choice to continue a pregnancy
Accept if you’re on welfare, your baby is sick or has a disability.
and if you choose to have your baby instead of school, work, etc, they say we exploit ourselves, like you said.
If anything, it prevents the abortions that you all hate so much by preventing unwanted pregnancy.
Actually, birth control pills are abortive.
Posted by: Jacqueline at November 7, 2007 1:57 PM
*******************
There is no pregnancy until implantation. Prevenging implantation prevents pregnancy. The pill prevents implantation. Its not ‘abortive’.
“And you’ve just described less than 1% of abortions.”
Not all rapes are reported.
I care more about myself than an embryo that I don’t want.
Wow. At least you admit that you’re selfish.
No, life begins at conception. As I mentioned above, the pill can kill a newly-conceived life by preventing implantation.
************************************
Life begins before conception. The egg and sperm are living before fertilization. Insisting a fertilized egg is “a life” is stretching it.
OK.
How about this.
MY HUSBAND AND I….WANTED….PROLONG THE PREGNANCY
So Lauren and her husband are inherently selfish. They wanted to keep the fetus alive. Nature was clearly trying to expel it. Bad, bad Lauren.
Not all rapes are reported. Right. You can thank abortion clinics for having a hand in that one.
So Lauren and her husband are inherently selfish. They wanted to keep the fetus alive. Nature was clearly trying to expel it. Bad, bad Lauren.
Posted by: Erin at November 7, 2007 3:32 PM
Um, not quite. They did that for ANOTHER LIFE.
There is no pregnancy until implantation. Prevenging implantation prevents pregnancy. The pill prevents implantation. Its not ‘abortive’.
I already addressed this: the definition of pregnancy aside, the pill can kill a newly-concieved human being.
Not that you’d care- you’d take a pair of forceps to your own child if they got between you and something you wanted.
“Better make sure mommy doesn’t want that last slice of pizza!”
I guess I am more disturbed by the fact that people actually believe and defend all the lies and half-truths that PP and their ilk made so many years ago…
Posted by: RSD at November 7, 2007 1:43 PM
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but its perfectly alright to believe and defend all the lies and half truths that the antichoice side comes up with
Oy! Fetus simply means “little one”.
Please, please don’t get started with this. It is so, so very mind numbing to get into the Zygote/Embryo/Fetus game. I call my 2 1/2 year old a baby. People speak in coloquialisms. I try to avoid “baby” on this site and stick with child meaning simply “offspring”. But really, do we have to do this semantics song and dance? We have refered to pregnant women as “with child” for centuries, but now we must say something along the lines of “Well, my Zygote is nearing the Embryo stage, just 20 more weeks until he’s a real boy…just like pinoccio!”
Also, don’t listen to Jacque…the car I lent her broke down on the way home! She’s the *real* example of a Godly woman!
Slavery was wrong even when it was legal…same as abortion…
Posted by: RSD at November 7, 2007 2:12 PM
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Robbing women of their right to bodily autonomy and self determination was wrong even when abortion was against the law.
So Lauren and her husband are inherently selfish. They wanted to keep the fetus alive. Nature was clearly trying to expel it. Bad, bad Lauren.
Holden didn’t want to die.
If you mom could choose to save your life through medication or let you die, which do you hope she’d choose?
They did it for Holden. I, for one, am grateful. I stole a kiss from him on Sunday.
Wow, Erin..that is the most ridiculous thing I have heard. If nature was trying to expel it..ANY efforts she would have taken to stop that would have failed so obviously NATURE wasn’t trying that hard. They wanted to have their baby with them instead of dead. How can wanting your baby to be healthy and alive be selfish exactly?
Lauren, so nice to see you!
Gestation and birth are more dangerous than abortion?!!! GIVE ME A BREAK!
**********************************************
Why should I? Im not responsible for your ignorance. The information comes from CDC statistics – its about 11 times more dangerous to gestate and give birth than to have an abortion and that includes ALL abortions.
Also, don’t listen to Jacque…the car I lent her broke down on the way home!
That was fun. When it stopped running and I had to coast to my house, I was laughing hysterically!
Yeah, I’m sure that you wouldn’t give your child medication either, Erin. Nature wants me to have a staph infection right? Unless you really believe this, (which some people do, and I respect their right to not seek medical attention) you can not condemn trying to save your child’s life.
Yes, we were selfish that we wanted our child to live. However, fighting for your child’s life seems just a smidgen more justified than fighting for his death.
Erin – but there is a vast difference for the miscarriages to come naturally, versus purposely done at the hand of the abortionist.
one is nature, the other grave sin.
Posted by: joyfromIllinois at November 7, 2007 2:14 PM
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That may be your OPINION but the fact of the matter is nothing anywhere in the scriptures, old or new testament, gives any indication that god or the men who wrote the bible felt that way about abortion.
Nice to see all of you too!
I DO want you to be abstinate if are so closed to children that you would kill any that your actions create. I don’t think that is too much to ask.
**************************
Back to the enormous ego and the self absorbed megalomania so typical of antichoicers – expecting people to be celibate unless they are willing to live by YOUR rules is ‘not too much to ask’ – how laughable!
You’re being hurtful, Erin.
Lauren protects and cares for all her children the best that she can and laments that she can’t do more. She pains over the loss of two of them, much like Bethany.
You paid some quack to shred your baby and he/she was either incinerated or put down an industrial garbage disposal.
You have no right to criticise Lauren’s choices regarding her babies.
Robbing women of their right to bodily autonomy and self determination was wrong even when abortion was against the law.
Posted by: TexasRed
———————————-
You gave up that right once you willfully engaged in the sexual act. What do you think will happen after sex…you get gas?
Gabby, damn right I’m angry. I’m angry that they’re killing defenseless babies. That makes me angry.
************
Back to the melodramatic hysteria of antichoicers – trying to pretend that mindless insensate nonviable tissue and cell structure is a ‘defenseless baby’
That may be your OPINION but the fact of the matter is nothing anywhere in the scriptures, old or new testament, gives any indication that god or the men who wrote the bible felt that way about abortion.
“Thou shalt not kill” is pretty damn clear!
Anti choicers have enormous egos? *snort* that’s a new one. I’d say that the pro choice side has the ego issues. EGO stands for: Ease God Out. Ever hear that before??
“Wow. At least you admit that you’re selfish.”
Sticks and stones, dear Jaqueline.
*headdesk* Maternal death is at least 10 times more common than deaths related to abortion. It’s a fact. I wish you guys would just give that one up. Cancer kills more people than heroin and it doesn’t mean that heroin is better. It’s just a fact.
Posted by: Erin at November 7, 2007 2:38 PM
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Thank you.
The CDC shows this. And this is ALL abortions – from a typical one performed at 8 weeks to the rare late term abortions which are much more hazardous. The probability of a major complication from a typical abortion (first trimester) is just about zilch.
I introduce you to some mindless insensate nonviable tissue and cell structure:
Oh look! The mindless insensate nonviable tissue and cell structure is grinning!
Yeah, YOU, YOU YOU YOU. Thanks for admitting what everyone knows- that abortion is about selfishness.
**************
There is NOTHING more selfish than YOU pretending no woman should be allowed to have an abortion simply because allmighty self absorbed egocentric megalomaniacal control freak YOU doesnt approve of abortion.
Speaking of Texas Red…Edyt, you’re plan of action (or should I say “inaction”) seems to have worked…
Thanks.
Posted by: mk at November 7, 2007 2:42 PM
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Have you considered getting professional help for your delusions?
Here’s another photo of a mindless insensate nonviable tissue and cell structure sucking his thumb:
“You paid some quack to shred your baby and he/she was either incinerated or put down an industrial garbage disposal.”
And this isn’t hurtful? Good job being a hypocrite.
I do consider forcing (or even accepting) an abortion a life sentence of depression and anger.
********
Then youre very poorly informed. Even Koop had to admit he didnt have any evidence to support the existance of PAS
Jacque, that picture is showing a reflex action….
Sticks and stones, dear Jaqueline.
Well, let’s be real, Stephanie. Exactly who is your primary concern when you choose to dismember the baby? Don’t tell me it’s the baby!
Awww…
This mindless insensate nonviable tissue and cell structure has little eyes and ears.
The pro choice position has NO problem accepting the choice to continue a pregnancy
Accept if you’re on welfare, your baby is sick or has a disability.
and if you choose to have your baby instead of school, work, etc, they say we exploit ourselves, like you said.
Posted by: Jacqueline at November 7, 2007 3:29 PM
**********************************
when did I ever say a woman should be compelled to have an abortion? as for your profound lack of reading comprehension – I said convincing women that their most important function is gestation exploits them. You prove that yourself
Jacque, that picture is showing a reflex action….
No, babies, toddlers and children suck their thumbs because it’s pleasurable. It’s not a reflex to stick your thumb in your mouth. It’s a deliberate action.
What if another woman isnt willing to do that or cant?
What about pregnant women that ride rollercoasters, drink and smoke-because they’re not willing to compromise their gratification for the protection of their babies?
I know what I call such women.
Posted by: Jacqueline at November 7, 2007 2:58 PM
***************
I have no doubt your self righteousness and egocentricity and your control freak megalomania leads you to call women all kinds of names if they dont live their lives to suit you.
You paid some quack to shred your baby and he/she was either incinerated or put down an industrial garbage disposal.
*****************
back to the hate filled irrational hysterical idiocy of antichoicers –
And this isn’t hurtful?
No, Stephanie. It’s JUST. She attacked Lauren in a weak spot since she’s still mourning her babies. I reminded her that she has NO ROOM to talk.
Besides, Erin has no conscience pangs about shredding her baby, do ya, Erin?
but its perfectly alright to believe and defend all the lies and half truths that the antichoice side comes up with
Posted by: TexasRed
——————————
What, may I ask, do you consider pro-life lies and half-truths?
You gave up that right once you willfully engaged in the sexual act. What do you think will happen after sex…you get gas?
Posted by: RSD at November 7, 2007 3:42 PM
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Back to the misogynistic attitude that women have some ‘obligation’ to continue a pregnancy to make sure they pay for being sexually active and pregnancy and childbirth are their punishments for sinning. Agreeing to sex is not agreeing to pregnancy.
We’re such idiots TexasRed..and YET we can acknowledge the human in those pictures that have been put up..and you can not. Maybe cause you suffer from a great degree of irrational idiocy yourself or maybe you just live in a constant state of denial. Either way…I’m glad I don’t have to be you every day.
Wow- this thread has spiralled out of control.
I apologize for sinking to the level that I have.
If TexasRed’s comments are going to bring down the entire conversation, in spite of attempts otherwise (with pictures of KITTIES, no less!), then I think our posting rules should be enforced across the board.
My apologies to all- Stephanie, Erin.
“Thou shalt not kill” is pretty damn clear!
***********
Your ignorance of your own mythology is painfully obvious. KILLING was condoned, accepted, excused and commanded all thru the old testament. There was nothing wrong with killing. There is a long list of transgressions which are punisable by death. The commandment is against committing murder and nothing anywhere in the OT or NT gives any indication that god or the men who wrote the bible viewed abortion as murder or even viewed it as ‘killing’.
Wow, I missed all sorts of fun!
Not all rapes are reported. Right. You can thank abortion clinics for having a hand in that one.
Posted by: heather at November 7, 2007 3:32 PM
***********
even more idiocy
I am reminded:
“Do not return evil with evil, or insults with insults. Instead, pray for blessing. You were called in order to inherit blessing,” (I Peter 3:9)
So my kneejerk in-kind response to Erin’s post was wrong. My sincere apologies.
So Lauren and her husband are inherently selfish. They wanted to keep the fetus alive. Nature was clearly trying to expel it. Bad, bad Lauren.
Posted by: Erin at November 7, 2007 3:32 PM
Um, not quite. They did that for ANOTHER LIFE.
Posted by: Kristen at November 7, 2007 3:33 PM
…………………………………
Um, the motivation was selfish desire to do so.
Lauren- Email me about how to delete posts. I’m going to take MK’s suggestions and delete everything that breaks the posting rules (including posts of my own).
You’re right, TexasRed…some women SHOULD have the right to be weak and cowardly if they so choose. That’s the PC motto: It’s okay to run away and be a coward and not stand up for what is right, because it’s your CHOICE. They prey upon the weak, the scared, the confused, because it’s easier to sway someone of a weak mind than it is to sway someone as strong-minded as Lauren. I have wayyy more admiration for the people who are strong and stand up in the face of adversity than I do for people who run away with their tail between their legs. Come on seriously…if you’re woman enough to get pregnant, be woman enough to have/take care of/or give your baby up for adoption. THOSE women I would be proud to stand next to because I know they have what it really takes to be successful. Strength, integrity, and character. That’s all that really matters in the end..What kind of person you are and if you remained true to what is right no matter what happened. Lauren, I applaud you..that sounded like a tough pregnancy. You rock girl.
Posted by: Elizabeth at November 7, 2007 3:06 PM
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Back to the misogyny of the antichoice position – the need to denigrate demean and try to belittle a woman who ends a pregnancy regardless of her reasons – you have to make up lies about any woman who is pro choice because you dont have what it takes to deal with the truth.
And now Sally’s here so I am reaffirmed in my desire to get my ever-lovin’ delete on!
SO Sally, It’s selfish to do something for someone else then? Because that is what you are saying. So I guess we should never again help the poor, feed the hungry, or clothe the naked..because that is a selfish desire as well. Oh well, that’s good to know. Now I can go back to my life of only doing for myself because that’s the RIGHT thing to do. Or so the PCer’s would like to brainwash us to think.
Bobby-
I’m a sweet girl. What happened?
You have no right to criticise Lauren’s choices regarding her babies.
***********
you have no right to criticize someone elses choices either – youre such a hypocrite!
I am amazed at how many people that don’t accept the bible as truth, quote it, or use it to prove that we are wrong…
I think I’m going to start quoting Alice in Wonderland…a fictional book, one that I DON’T believe is true, to support my opinions.
Nowhere in Alice in Wonderland does it say that abortion is good. Therefore it must not be.
“Well, let’s be real, Stephanie. Exactly who is your primary concern when you choose to dismember the baby? Don’t tell me it’s the baby!”
Again, stick and stones. I know what kind of person I am, and you don’t. Your ideas and sense of right and wrong is different than mine. I see no wrong in an early abortion. You find it wrong even when it’s just a blastocyst.
Everything I’ve seen you write here has intention to hurt and wound people you disagree with. But hey, you could turn out to be a lovely person when you aren’t debating abortion.
Though rape victims had no part in the act of creating the child, they are none the less given the sole responsibility of the child’s life. I do not believe compounding the violence they experienced with further violence is in any way benevolent. These women need support and outreach, but I do not believe they should be given the right to kill another. Doing so opens a very dangerous can of worms in which we may harm someone because of the actions of someone else.
****************
that is truly disgusting
MK,
Hey, lady! I missed you.
I think this thread has brough out the worst in everyone. There’s only so much cheek-turning people do before they lash out (not excusing, just explaining). I concur that we need to do some deleting.
What do you think?
Anti choicers have enormous egos? *snort* that’s a new one. I’d say that the pro choice side has the ego issues. EGO stands for: Ease God Out. Ever hear that before??
Posted by: heather at November 7, 2007 3:44 PM
**********
Stupid people say all kinds of incredibly stupid things heather – you belabor that point
Oh look! The mindless insensate nonviable tissue and cell structure is grinning!
********
someone is pathetically illiterate when it comes to fetal development …. thanks for looking stupid again
Everything I’ve seen you write here has intention to hurt and wound people you disagree with.
I can see where I have misrepresented myself. My actions today do not represent who I really am and I am sorry about that.
Jacque, I think you may have misunderstood me. Reread what i sent you. It’s supposed to be an impression of someone…
Jacqueline-
Get to deleting…cause this thread has seriously spiraled out of control for some people..maybe even me since it is hard to remain silent constantly when people continue to try and dig at you.
Hey, no biggie Jaqueline.
Getting angry and frustrated happens, especially with such a big issue as this.
And this isn’t hurtful? Good job being a hypocrite.
**********
Its TRYING to be hurtful – and youre right – hypocricy is the meat and bread of the antichoice position
This mindless insensate nonviable tissue and cell structure has little eyes and ears.
Posted by: Jacqueline at November 7, 2007 3:51 PM
***********
And?
Jacque, that picture is showing a reflex action….
No, babies, toddlers and children suck their thumbs because it’s pleasurable. It’s not a reflex to stick your thumb in your mouth. It’s a deliberate action.
Posted by: Jacqueline at November 7, 2007 3:52 PM
**********************
A newborn has a suckling reflex. So does the fetus. It has nothing to do with conscious thought. A newborn cannot consciously put its thumb in its mouth. Are you trying to pretend that a fetus is capable of something that a newborn infant, or an infant several months old is not able to do?
but its perfectly alright to believe and defend all the lies and half truths that the antichoice side comes up with
Posted by: TexasRed
——————————
What, may I ask, do you consider pro-life lies and half-truths?
Posted by: RSD at November 7, 2007 3:56 PM
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let me see – fetal development for starters, thats a typical lie – then there is the matter of being dishonest about ‘the product of abortion’ – there’s the matter of the PAS lie – saying that abortion is more dangerous than gestation and birth, the comments made about women who have abortions – the attempts to demean belittle and denigrate them – that’s just for starters …. the antichoice position hit the ground running with the lie of THE SILENT SCREAM and has been continuing along those lines ever since –
We’re such idiots TexasRed..and YET we can acknowledge the human in those pictures that have been put up..and you can not. Maybe cause you suffer from a great degree of irrational idiocy yourself or maybe you just live in a constant state of denial. Either way…I’m glad I don’t have to be you every day.
Posted by: Elizabeth at November 7, 2007 3:56 PM
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You dont have the integrity to handle being me. You prove that. I never disagreed that a fetus is genetically human but I also know enough about development to realize that its mindless, insensate, nonviable and oblivious. And I care about human beings enough to recognize a womans right to admit she isnt in a position to continue a pregnancy. You cant cope with that either.
I am amazed at how many people that don’t accept the bible as truth, quote it, or use it to prove that we are wrong…
I think I’m going to start quoting Alice in Wonderland…a fictional book, one that I DON’T believe is true, to support my opinions.
Nowhere in Alice in Wonderland does it say that abortion is good. Therefore it must not be.
Posted by: mk at November 7, 2007 4:03 PM
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What in the world do you imagine one has to do with the other? YOURE the one pretending your religion and the bible somehow justifies your attitude towards other women when the fact of the matter is it does no such thing. When the OT was written women could be killed in a particularly horrific way if they were pregnant outside of marriage. They could be killed for being raped. They could be forced to marry their rapist. Pretending that the women of the Children of Israel didnt know about abortion, didnt know how to perform abortions, and didnt have abortions is being willfully ignorant. And the fact of the matter is nothing ANYWHERE in the bible gives any indication the MEN who WROTE the bible had a problem with the practice.
Jacquie,
I think that we should leave up what is up as a lesson to everyone…then I think that if a post has an insult in it, we should refrain from responding.
It will be a great exercise of self control for all of us.
If we delete everthing with an insult, there will only be three posts left…lol.
BUT,
from this point on, if I see the words idiot, stupid, or anything else that is a direct insult to a PERSON, not an idea, I WILL DELETE IT…
Understood?
The Do’s
Be civil and considerate.
Try to read what the other person is actually saying and not what you think they may be saying.
Express thoughts carefully and clearly.
You are responsible for what you write.
Remember this blog is moderated by volunteers who have put themselves in the position of making difficult judgment calls.
Therefore, respect the Moderators’ decisions. They reserve the right to remove any comment for any reason. Know they exercise extreme prudence. All decisions are final.
“Criticize ideas, not people.
I can see where I have misrepresented myself. My actions today do not represent who I really am and I am sorry about that.
Posted by: Jacqueline at November 7, 2007 4:07 PM
****************
of course they do – you couldnt post something that wasnt representative of the real you
I also know enough about development to realize that its mindless, insensate, nonviable and oblivious.
Self control…you see? I’m not going to say the obvious…
Does the comment above me count for deletion, MK? Cause I think she’s friggin’ EARNED IT.
Self control…you see? I’m not going to say the obvious…
I’m not sure, but I’m guessing it involves an ass and a hole in the ground.
MK, that comment was relatively on topic and not a personal attack. I can see where that would stay and we’d exercise self-control. It’s the inflammatory stupid/moron/idiot crap that tries my patience.
Well, Jacquie, when you put it with the rest of her comments today yes, but on it’s own no. I mean, if it was anybody else, you’d actually answer that one.
but just give her time…it shouldn’t take long.
I gotta tell you…for fifteen years I have fasted on Wednesdays…bread only/Medjugorje. When I hurt my knee last May I stopped, because I knew that it wasn’t physically good for healing. Today is the first day that I have fasted on a Wednesday since May 17th. I gotta tell, I have a splitting headache, I got my period and I got a sinus headache. I promise, I’m not gonna put up with much more of her.
It’s time to pray Jacquie. Right now. Stop what you are doing…Lauren, Elizabeth, Bethany, Val, Bobby…STOP, DROP and PRAY…much more powerful than deleting anyway…
TR –
You know nothing about fetal develoopment or child development at all. What school dod you go to?
There are videos of unborn babies playing, kicking, sucking their thumbs, doing summersaults. They hear in-utero, they respond to noises, they can get startled. Infants can smell the difference between their mother and someone else, they understand sounds, they do some of the largest amounts of learning in the first few months after birth. So yes, a baby in-utero is no different then a newborn. They don’t start having thinking when they are 2 yrs old.
You probably agree with Prof. Peter Singer that a woman should be able to kill her postborn child up to a month of age.
But to explain this to you is pointless, you have no desire to know, hear or seek the truth. You are just a bitter person.
I just like seeing the words mindless, insensate, nonviable and oblivious all strung together like that…musical, you know?
MAN, And just to think, sometimes y’all think I am a bitch. And I have never said anything that bad before…
YAY FOR MIDNITE
You know, I like arguing my point of view… respectfully.
I left for a bit to get something done and I come back to see this.
Well, I’m done. I liked talking with all of ya, but this nonsense is just a waste of my time.
Good luck converting people, PLers, and good luck keeping strong PCers.
Unless you people decide to act like civilized human beings we’re never going to have a peaceful world.
See ya.
Amen, MK, you got prayers commin!
Ahhhh Edyt,
I’m sorry to see you go. I think if you stick around ( I HOPE) that you’ll see we’re all better now.
Everyone is going to take a deep, deep breath and we are NOT going to rise to any more bait. It’s crazy and unproductive to give that much power to anyone.
See, Edyt, You and I have now agreed on something.
This whole thing has been ridiculous. And I hope it’s over now.
Please stay. If for no other reason, than we need a sane influence :)
Edyt they’re not always like this. I can vouch for them :-)
Hey, MK, I am here and SANE…
LOL Midnite,
Which one of the last two hundred posts were you referring to?
How are you? Tell me what’s been going on.
Kind of reminds of the day you and I went at it over sociopaths…and look what good friends we are now.
Edyt,
See we even want the PCer’s to stay..we really are sweet once you get to know us. We enjoy lively debate and sometimes it gets out of control..but stay and debate with us.
Midnite,
I don’t think I’ve ever been so happy to see someone…thanks girlfriend.
I’m ashamed to say it, but did you notice that that was a catfight? Not one man got involved. Shame on the ladies…
In fact Edyt, I’ll refer you to a wonderful conversation Enigma and I had in the post “Twinseparable.” I know I learned a lot from her. There is an example of a nice, rational conversation that two people who vehemently disagree can have.
MK-
Want to cofraternize? I fast one day a week also. I can move it to Wednesdays and we can share intentions! Where two or more are gathered counts for intent, I believe!
It will also keep me accountable. I’m been spiritually lazy since our 40 Days for Life ended. I’d like to keep my disciplines that I began 40 something days ago.
Thanks Bobby,
We need ’em. Satan is a tricky little bugger. A lot of times you don’t even see him comin’…but we’re better than that. Prolifers AND Prochoicers.
Nobody should act this way.
Be gone Satan…and take your imps with you. We have important business to take care of, and you’re bringin’ me down. Now get lost. In Jesus’ name, amen.
It’s amazing how the influence of one person can drag down a group. That’s why we need to use our influence for good and not for evil.
Definitely Jacquie.
I don’t think it’s coincidence that today is the day satan got ticked off. Give us an image of Our Lady to clean up this thread.
“I gotta tell you…for fifteen years I have fasted on Wednesdays…bread only”
I suck.
I concur with MK’s rebuke of the enemy-
Uh BUH BYE! In Jesus’ Name!
Edyt, you got lost in the shuffle. Stick around:} These debates don’t always get so out of control.
Bobby,
15 years ago you were just a kid…
As mother Teresa says.
Yesterday is no longer here.
Tomorrow has not yet comes.
All we have is today.
Let us begin.
Ascending to Glory-
Though rape victims had no part in the act of creating the child, they are none the less given the sole responsibility of the child’s life. I do not believe compounding the violence they experienced with further violence is in any way Lauren says : “benevolent. These women need support and outreach, but I do not believe they should be given the right to kill another. Doing so opens a very dangerous can of worms in which we may harm someone because of the actions of someone else. ”
****************
TR Says “that is truly disgusting”
****************
What exactly do you find disgusting, the support part or the part where one person shouldn’t kill another?
And honestly,
I didn’t tell that story to blow my own horn. Just wanted to show how powerful sacrifice is. The debbil be’s maaaaad when we do the good stuff.
And also to let you all know that my patience quotient is seriously depleted on Wednesdays.
Bobby-
Want to cofraternize? :)
Yanno- I’ve done detox fasts that I declared were only for health reasons, and still God dealt with in that day something that had plagued me for years. Intentional fasting is powerful and God ceases it and uses it in awesome ways.
Want to be my fasting buddy?
Lauren, Lauren, Lauren,
Who are you talking to? Who is the TR? I don’t know any TR? Anybody here know someone named TR?
Nope, no one here by that name. You’re posting to ghosts. ;-)
Oh, I LOVE that picture of our Blessed Mother! She is so beautiful!
MK: That’s what I am here for: To share the happiness…
I’ve been hiding at school and work, not enough time to play on the Internet and study/work… I miss you guys.
And I don’t think our little cat fight got that bad… But then again, my memory is going with my older age.
AND THERE IS A DAMN FLY IN MY OFFICE AND I AM ABOUT TO FREAK B/C I CANT GET TO IT AND KILL IT….
Jacque- no, I don’t have any regrets.
That doesn’t mean you have to be a bit about it, though.
Oh Jacquie,
That pic is perfect. Who could be mad looking at her. Have you ever seen the Eucharist video I have posted from time to time. If that doesn’t shame us into better behavior, nothing will.
Yes. Yes I do want to be your fasting buddy. Let’s talk on Facebook to confirm details. MK, you need a facebook account, BTW.
I think it rocks to consecrate the middle of your week like that- You’ve got Sunday mass, and you really need to reclaim your week.
I wish I had daily masses in the evening where I could go. :(
Ahhhh,
MIdnite…
I just laughed out loud…such a sweet little post and then THE KILLER FLY LADY APPEARS!!!!
Yeah MK. You really do need Facebook. It’s the bestest thing ever!
We could make an event/group out of it. Maybe others could join…
Like Forrest Gump had people jogging behind him…
(don’t know where that came from).
Johnny (7) has to do a reading at church next week and he and MaryPat are practicing on their Karaoke machine…too cute.
“Let us go rejoicing to the house of the Lord”
Over and over in the background, that’s what I’m hearing…timing is everything. Talk about the power of prayer.
Yeah MK. You really do need Facebook. It’s the bestest thing ever!
Don’t know how to do that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cbGCQyP_uk
Bobby and Jacquie, PLEASE watch this…
OOOH, I’ll send you a link. It’s so easy. All you need is an e-mail address, and then you can put up pictures, send messages, poke people…
http://www.thefacebook.com
Oh, and I got the fly…
::blush::
http://uab.facebook.com/home.php?
there we go :-)
I love Irish Music sung in Irish bars…
One group I love sings a song that goes…
Oh there was a little fly and he flew into the store and he (here the audience all says “ssssshhhhh” together) upon the ceiling and he (“ssssshhhhh”) upon the floor, he (ssssshhhhh) upon the bacon and he (Shhhhhhh) upon the ham and he (shhhhhhh) upon the head of the little grocery man…
Poor little midnites fly…
So are you gonna do it, MK?
little grocery man had a little grocery wife they swore they’d get that fly if it meant their bloody life they bought themselves a cannon and hid inside the store and blew themselves to blazes as the fly flew out the door there was a little fly and he flew into a store and he sh** upon the ceiling and he sh** upon the floor he sh** upon the bacon and he sh** upon the ham and he sh** upon the head of the little grocery man they found themselves in heaven before the pearly gates St. Peter said “no matter, its time to be repaid” they got their angel’s wings… and flew into the sky… AND SWOOPED DOWN LIKE BUZZARDS AND SH** UPON THE FLY!!
hahaha, sorry about the killing MK, it had to be done. He was bothering me immensely. Just swarming around my desk…
I signed up as Mark Hastings…don’t know why. But now I don’t know how to fix it. Either way, I don’t know what I do next. Just a big home page, no instructions and an overwhelming sense that I am ooooooold.
Did you watch the video I just posted?
MK, it’s easy. you need to go to networks, click on alabama, and then colleges, then click on UAB, and then look me up by my real name or my e-mail address, and send me a friend request.
I will soon, but I’m in my office with my office mates, and one of the comments said it made him cry, so that will probably happen to me, and I don’t want to cry in front of them again. But soon, my friend.
What network did you choose?
I’m so confused. I go to networks and it wants me to fill in a city and state.
well put in where you live
Thats right. So you just fill in the one you’re closest to. Or in. Like I’m in the Concord, NH network.
Isn’t this exciting, midnite?
Hey since you all have a facebook, do you have myspace..cause I have a myspace…but no facebook..cause people stalk me on facebook that I don’t want to..but I have a myspace!! If any of you have one and want to add me I will give my address!
Okay, now I’ve joined the “Chicago” Network. Now what?
Very exciting Bobby. I am about to Burst
OK, I am off to dinner, I shall return in a bit though….
Are you still Mark hastings?
“For your own safety, do not post personal information about yourself or anyone else.”
Does that mean Jill broke her own rules by posting the names of pro-choice medical students? (the next article).
MAN, And just to think, sometimes y’all think I am a bitch. And I have never said anything that bad before…
YAY FOR MIDNITE
Posted by: midnite678 at November 7, 2007 4:33 PM
I agree! Yay for Midnite! How are you?
Some friendly advice –
I “preview” my comment at least one or two times before I post, and if I can’t make it nice, I delete it.
No, my son helped me change it, but it says it might take awhile. I think I might be Midnites “friend” now and I have sort of filled out my “profile”…
I befriended a Mark Hastings from Chicago… I hope that was you. Alas, I must go and give a calculus exam. I’ll see you later on facebook, MK!
I hope so, lol.
Hey all –
Sorry for letting TexasRed get to me. Man most of the time I don’t bite, but I’m having a really bad PMS day and boy did it show. :(
I read today that the most powerful weapon Satan has is to divide us. Don’t want to be any part of that.
So if TexasRed is reading I apologize for being so sarccastic. Even when frustration sets in you are still a human being and you deserve to be treated with respect.
Good for you Tara!
See what prayer can do?
What? MK, you have a facebook?
MK – I actually felt bad today. I don’t normally say things like that. But boy, I really had a bee in my bonnet. It is so frustrating when a person just doesn’t care. Hal, Edyt, and others who I have serious disagreements with are at least respectful for and we can have a dialouge.
Yes prayer is wonderful, and it really brings me back to reality:) I’m sane again!!
I can’t believe that this thread went on to hit 400 posts..lol
One thing REd didnt mention was the most UN-Selfish act a woman in a crisis pregnancy can do is put a child up for adoption.
I am a child of adoption. I thank my birth mother EACH AND EVERY day for giving me the opportunity to live my life as God had intended.
Not one day goes by that I never think of her GREAT love for me- for me- not for herself, but for me. I pray that I have lived up to her dreams for me, ones that she couldnt be a part of.
To ALL birthmothers out there.. Thank you for the total selflessness of your actions and for loving us more than you loved yourselves.
That my friends is truly Sacrificial Love.
Abortion is not a sacraficial love. It is a negation of love.
TexasRed,
Earlier I posted two links to breast cancer studies on the pillow talk thread.
One in the NEJM.
The other from Archives of Internal Medicine.
Later you posted an article from Web MD referencing the second study I posted.
If you read the studies, not the Web MD article about the study, you will find from the data set the researchers had, the only establised risk factors that could be calculated from their data set, are the increased risk from having no children or few children and having them later in life.
These established risk factors are the basis for the studies’ conclusions that abortion overall does not increase breast cancer significantly.
However, the NEJM article noted a 3% increase in breast cancer for each additional week of gestation. Few in the study of over 1 million Danish women had late abortions so the increase did not affect the overall numbers. So technically the conclusion is reasonable based on the numbers.
I can’t believe that this thread went on to hit 400 posts..lol
One thing REd didnt mention was the most UN-Selfish act a woman in a crisis pregnancy can do is put a child up for adoption.
I am a child of adoption. I thank my birth mother EACH AND EVERY day for giving me the opportunity to live my life as God had intended.
Not one day goes by that I never think of her GREAT love for me- for me- not for herself, but for me. I pray that I have lived up to her dreams for me, ones that she couldnt be a part of.
To ALL birthmothers out there.. Thank you for the total selflessness of your actions and for loving us more than you loved yourselves.
That my friends is truly Sacrificial Love.
Abortion is not a sacraficial love. It is a negation of love.
Posted by: yvonne at November 7, 2007 7:03 PM
…………………………………
I fail to see how giving a baby away is not selfish.
I fail to see how giving a baby away is not selfish.
Posted by: Sally at November 7, 2007 7:47 PM
I honestly don’t mean this in a sarcastic, mean tone. But I finally figured out why Sally is PC. I really was having a hard time because her mom tried so hard to have children, etc… But if she can’t see how that’s unselfish I really completely understand her view of abortion.
It’s like when I was learning proofs in geometry and it was like this absolute clarity came over me. Same thing here.
“…proofs in geometry…”
Oh yeah, Kristen!
Bobby, that was the first time I’ve ever had a moment like that. And they’ve been few and far between since. But now, 20 years (oh crap 20 years!)later I STILL remember that. My teacher told me at my graduation 2 years later that it was one of the moments in her career she’ll never forget.
I really am hopeless in math, but I married a math teacher so I’m covered! ;)
Oh great! What kind of math does he teach?
Sally…
So sorry that you think adoption is selfish. I dont know of many PC folks who think that it is. Perhaps your issue is elsewhere..
If I may suggest talk to both adoptive mothers and birthmothers. Maybe then you will understand the sacrafice that countless amount of women have made for their children.
He teaches/taught Jr. high. Social Science and Math. So no calc for him but he’s one of those guys that can figure any problem.
When he takes our kids to the park he plays this game with them. He’s the dragon and they are the knights. He’ll shout out a math problem and if they get it right he pretends like they just hit him with their lance. If they get it wrong he breaths fire (tickles them.) All the moms laugh…
The beginning of this year he started an assistant principal position so while he’s still in the classroom it’s not like before.
yvonne, I’m adopted too. I’m glad that I have the family I do. I’m glad that I’m alive. If, however, my birth mother had chosen to abort, I wouldn’t have cared. I would have not been in any position to care about it either way.
That’s great stuff! Fun and educational. I gotta start taking notes!
Wait a minute…so tara..you’re saying that sally is PC because giving a baby away to people who will love it is WORSE than its mother not letting it experience love at all (i.e. abortion). That is some pretty screwy logic but I know a girl right now is going to have an abortion because well “she would just die if she had to give her baby away.” How ironic.
I fail to see how giving a baby away is not selfish.
Posted by: Sally at November 7, 2007 7:47 PM
I honestly don’t mean this in a sarcastic, mean tone. But I finally figured out why Sally is PC. I really was having a hard time because her mom tried so hard to have children, etc… But if she can’t see how that’s unselfish I really completely understand her view of abortion.
It’s like when I was learning proofs in geometry and it was like this absolute clarity came over me. Same thing here.
……………….
Hmmm. I know my mother very well. She has always been about self preservation. Including her religiosity. Not going to hell is a selfish goal.
Mom didn’t try hard to have children. She simply had sex and didn’t use BC. Dad wanted lots of kids and he provided her with a nice home and very nice clothes to wear to church. Since her brain surgery that has rendered her unable to lie, she will tell you that she never wanted children and wanted to be a school teacher instead.
And algebra certainly made much more sense when I took geometry. I relate to you there. My daughter isn’t a civil engineer/architect because of my knowledge of math. That’s for sure.
Haha Sally, that would make me laugh if my daughter grew up to be an architect..cause I SUCK at math. In an almost ridiculous way I think.
Sally…
So sorry that you think adoption is selfish. I dont know of many PC folks who think that it is. Perhaps your issue is elsewhere..
If I may suggest talk to both adoptive mothers and birthmothers. Maybe then you will understand the sacrafice that countless amount of women have made for their children.
Posted by: yvonne at November 7, 2007 8:40 PM
…………………..
If handing off a child isn’t self serving it would be harmfull to the one doing so. If one isn’t doing so for self serving interests such as peace of mind, self interest in the child, one would be doing so foolishly and unemotionaly.
I’m not a child yvonne. Sacrifice is all about selfishness. Sacrifice involves self, not others.
I believe that if you bring a child into this world it is your solemn duty to raise and nurture it. Passing it off to another is selfish and irresponsible.
Here’s another photo of a mindless insensate nonviable tissue and cell structure sucking his thumb:
Posted by: Jacque at November 7, 2007 3:47 PM
…………………….
While the thumb is situated near the face, it clearly is not sucking on the thumb. As far as we know, the fetus could be quite brain dead and never capable of sucking a thumb.
Carrie: Edyt, we are both pro-cat. How’s that for common ground?
Cats are amazing. One sister-in-law of mine had “Malcolm the Hugging Cat” – if you were in a chair he would jump up and sit or stand on your thighs, then put his front paws on your shoulders and pet the base of your neck with them. It was awesome.
My dad’s place is a farm where on occasion there have been many cats. I once helped him give pills to felines that really did not want to take a pill. My dad and I are both over six feet tall and with both of us there that was almost 500 lbs. against one little cat at a time.
Tell you what – a cat can be mighty strong.
Sally, that is some interesting logic you have there. So you think giving a child to parents who will provide a wonderful home and upbringing with more love than that child could ever imagine is WORSE than say having its mother raise it in the projects and one day get shot in a drive-by? I’m sorry that just does not seem to me to be selfish. What about the people who can’t HAVE children? If they are willing to be the wonderful parents that the birth parents could not be then WHY NOT? It MAY be selfish..but it is no LESS selfish than dismembering your child inside of you and having it sucked down a drain. In fact, I think it requires much more strength and courage to develop a bond with that child while it is growing inside of you and then give it to people who can provide better for it than you ever could even though it may break your heart. To be honest, I am not a person that possesses that much strength and I am not ashamed to admit it.
Haha Sally, that would make me laugh if my daughter grew up to be an architect..cause I SUCK at math. In an almost ridiculous way I think.
Posted by: Elizabeth at November 7, 2007 9:25 PM
…………………….
It would be very sad if you had a daughter brilliant at math but anchored by your prejudice against math. My daughter started reciting simple addition and subtraction with very basic math introduction from me at the age of 3. I’m not afraid of my children being more accomplished than myself. I expect it and encourage it.
A good parent recognizes the talents of their children and nurtures those talents even if the parent has no interest in those talents.
Ummm Anonymous…where in that statement did you get that I would ever put prejudice on my daughter for being smart? I was in fact making light of the fact that I am not so good at math and relating to sally because she said she is not so good at math too. You have no idea about me or my “prejudices” which I have very few to speak of. I would welcome my daughter being smarter than me in any area of learning. I only hope she grows up to be something brilliant, but mostly I want her to be happy doing what she loves. Don’t presume to know anything about me or my “prejudice” or anything about my relationship with my daughter. Thank you. A good parent also teaches their children to not condescend to other people, especially when they don’t know them…hopefully your children will learn that IN SPITE of your behavior.
Sally, that is some interesting logic you have there. So you think giving a child to parents who will provide a wonderful home and upbringing with more love than that child could ever imagine is WORSE than say having its mother raise it in the projects and one day get shot in a drive-by? I’m sorry that just does not seem to me to be selfish. What about the people who can’t HAVE children? If they are willing to be the wonderful parents that the birth parents could not be then WHY NOT? It MAY be selfish..but it is no LESS selfish than dismembering your child inside of you and having it sucked down a drain. In fact, I think it requires much more strength and courage to develop a bond with that child while it is growing inside of you and then give it to people who can provide better for it than you ever could even though it may break your heart. To be honest, I am not a person that possesses that much strength and I am not ashamed to admit it.
Posted by: Elizabeth at November 7, 2007 9:54 PM
……………………………
Unless you can see into the future, you have no idea what kind of life a handed off child might have. Any more than a child not handed off. Are you saying that poor women should hand their children off to women with financial means? Sold to the highest bidder? Are ‘the projects’ worse than living in the back of an abandoned bus? The backwoods of Appalacia?
And what is your dismembering freak? At the point of the vast majority of abortions, there are no members to dis. Beyond that, how can you bond with that which you cannnot intereact with? Fantasy put aside of course.
Ohhh Anonymous..how you love to put words into my mouth. Did I say that women who are poor should hand their children off to women of financial means? No. Nor did I say having financial stability means you are the BEST parent for that child or better than the Biological parent. And last time I checked, children weren’t sold in this country…it’s called voluntary adoption. I’m sure somewhere in this country some pregnant women make money off of couples looking to experience the joy of a child yet cannot. But I was not speaking about that. I was speaking about adoption. You know when you can pick the parents you would like for your child and then either have an open adoption where you are allowed some contact with the child or you choose to not have contact.
And if there are no “members to dis” Why do they have to make sure they have all the “parts” before they finish the procedure? Oh yes, because we would not want to leave any body parts inside the mother of the baby’s BODY. Then the woman would have to go to the hospital for a D&C. And don’t presume to think that just because late-trimester abortions are illegal that they aren’t still done somewhere. PP and other abortion organizations aren’t concerned with legalities..they are concerned with the almighty dollar.
If I was around Texasredneck, and had to sleep where I became mindless, insensate, and oblivious, when I had to sleep.I would have to sleep with one eye open. That imbicle, Texasredneck, might make a choice that my development of becoming human enough for Texasredneck is reason enough to kill me.
But, alas, I quit counting the use of the word “hypocrite” by Texasred describing others, since the self named moniker of Texasred is practicing hypocricy, the moment TexasREDneck puts a finger to print the first letter of its self made internet moniker.
A honorable and intelligent developing human being would not be mindless, insensate and imbicilic to charge others with hypocrisy, when their self named moniker means FriendlyRED. Texas is the Spanish pronounciation of the Caddo word for “friends”.
Therefore, in any correspondence with Texasred should begin with; Dear Hypocrite TexasRED.
This would be a realistic statement which even Texasred would have to agree with to be a real person, devoted to real truth. Yes or no Texasred?
True or false, your name is either a oxymoron created by you, hypocrite Texasred, or your not developed enough to know the etymology of the word Tejas? And since I have made you aware of the defintion and etymology of the word Texas before, Hypocrite Texasred, one must assume hypocrisy is the “meat and bread of the pro murdering of developing humans”.
Ps, I still need to check your redneck-y-ness, Texasred. Are you now drinking Corona beer, since it is now fashiosnable, to drink Mexican beer?
Or are you a old fashioned Redneck who still eats “meat and potatoes” or is that “meat and bread”, thinking the potato originated in Ireland or Russia for vodka?
And finally, why are you mindless,insensate, and oblivious to the black sash “symbol” on the tilma of the Virgin of Guadalupe? Is it from being ethnocentric Hypocrite RED?
Awaiting a realistic answer, from a real life hypocrite, with known redneck personality characteristics.
Ummm Anonymous…where in that statement did you get that I would ever put prejudice on my daughter for being smart? I was in fact making light of the fact that I am not so good at math and relating to sally because she said she is not so good at math too. You have no idea about me or my “prejudices” which I have very few to speak of. I would welcome my daughter being smarter than me in any area of learning. I only hope she grows up to be something brilliant, but mostly I want her to be happy doing what she loves. Don’t presume to know anything about me or my “prejudice” or anything about my relationship with my daughter. Thank you. A good parent also teaches their children to not condescend to other people, especially when they don’t know them…hopefully your children will learn that IN SPITE of your behavior.
Posted by: Elizabeth at November 7, 2007 10:33 PM
………………………………………..
Sorry Elizabeth. Posting from my gentlemen friend’s puter I forget to add my name.
It’s odd that you find me condescending without a handle you can identify.
I’m not good at the kind of math my daughter is involved with. But accounting math is cake for me. Do you have a daughter Elizabeth? Or all of your thoughts speculation?
Ohhh Anonymous..how you love to put words into my mouth. Did I say that women who are poor should hand their children off to women of financial means? No. Nor did I say having financial stability means you are the BEST parent for that child or better than the Biological parent. And last time I checked, children weren’t sold in this country…it’s called voluntary adoption. I’m sure somewhere in this country some pregnant women make money off of couples looking to experience the joy of a child yet cannot. But I was not speaking about that. I was speaking about adoption. You know when you can pick the parents you would like for your child and then either have an open adoption where you are allowed some contact with the child or you choose to not have contact.
And if there are no “members to dis” Why do they have to make sure they have all the “parts” before they finish the procedure? Oh yes, because we would not want to leave any body parts inside the mother of the baby’s BODY. Then the woman would have to go to the hospital for a D&C. And don’t presume to think that just because late-trimester abortions are illegal that they aren’t still done somewhere. PP and other abortion organizations aren’t concerned with legalities..they are concerned with the almighty dollar.
Posted by: Elizabeth at November 7, 2007 11:06 PM
…………………………………….
Hmmm. Yea, open adoption. Selling the child to the highest bidder. Isn’t that nice. Vomit here.
And brianiac. The vast majority of abortions are performed before there are parts to put back together. When those late term abortions are performed it’s a silly practice to do model fetii. Do they paint and shellac them? Why not just make sure the woman’s uterous is clean and sound?
Doug,
You wrote,
Tell you what – a cat can be mighty strong.
Posted by: Doug at November 7, 2007 9:50 PM
My brother calls them “welding glove kitties”
You can pet them, but you have to be wearing welding gloves.
If I was around Texasredneck, and had to sleep where I became mindless, insensate, and oblivious, when I had to sleep.I would have to sleep with one eye open. That imbicle, Texasredneck, might make a choice that my development of becoming human enough for Texasredneck is reason enough to kill me.
But, alas, I quit counting the use of the word “hypocrite” by Texasred describing others, since the self named moniker of Texasred is practicing hypocricy, the moment TexasREDneck puts a finger to print the first letter of its self made internet moniker.
A honorable and intelligent developing human being would not be mindless, insensate and imbicilic to charge others with hypocrisy, when their self named moniker means FriendlyRED. Texas is the Spanish pronounciation of the Caddo word for “friends”.
Therefore, in any correspondence with Texasred should begin with; Dear Hypocrite TexasRED.
This would be a realistic statement which even Texasred would have to agree with to be a real person, devoted to real truth. Yes or no Texasred?
True or false, your name is either a oxymoron created by you, hypocrite Texasred, or your not developed enough to know the etymology of the word Tejas? And since I have made you aware of the defintion and etymology of the word Texas before, Hypocrite Texasred, one must assume hypocrisy is the “meat and bread of the pro murdering of developing humans”.
Ps, I still need to check your redneck-y-ness, Texasred. Are you now drinking Corona beer, since it is now fashiosnable, to drink Mexican beer?
Or are you a old fashioned Redneck who still eats “meat and potatoes” or is that “meat and bread”, thinking the potato originated in Ireland or Russia for vodka?
And finally, why are you mindless,insensate, and oblivious to the black sash “symbol” on the tilma of the Virgin of Guadalupe? Is it from being ethnocentric Hypocrite RED?
Awaiting a realistic answer, from a real life hypocrite, with known redneck personality characteristics.
Posted by: yllas at November 7, 2007 11:41 PM
…………………
You are a little nuts honey. Have a cup of tea and reflect on why you think that anyone would care about a tilma of an idol when considering abortion. Or anything else for that matter. Ethnocentric are you?
Well Sally, Your not from TEXAS are you?
If you are, shall I ask you some questions about your redneck-y-ness? Have a Corona, and think why being a Hypocritical Redneck is not a pleasant character feature, which leaves you in a condition of being a ethnocentric redneck. Or are you accusing those who are Mexican American, and have pride in their Lady of Guadalupe, of being ethnocentric, bigot Sally?
Hypocrite REDNECK is unable to know anything outside of redneck-y-ness, from being that typical racist from the Friendly state.
, Are you related to Hypocrite REDNECK, Sally?
You do still write,and know, that hot air ballons rise when they are losing hot air, right Sally? A redneck miracle by George. Or by Sally. You still “planning accidents” with your redneck version of God, Sally? Are “60 year old” people still being “hurtled to the ground” when a hot air ballon is rising while losing hot air? First you wrote the “60 year old was falling” and then one post later you increased the person into a hurtling person. Ya, your ability to know word definitions decreases with your propaganda efforts in direct inverse proportions to truth, little Redneck Sally.
And finally Sally, the sister puppet to the Hypocrite REDNECK, have you had to call the EMS since your mind numbing lie about hot air ballons rising from losing hot air. Defying logic and physics. Where people are “falling” and then magically become objects which are “flung with great force(hurtle)”, in the same time and space action you wrote about.
Did you begin your emergency call to the EMS with those famous words you wrote and believe in, that states, God plans accidents. Hello, this is Sally the sadsack propagandist who witnessed a person fall, then hurtled to the ground, by that God who plans accidents, please get out here to witness another planned accident.
And if you didn’t use those words, or not use them in a future call to the EMS, your a practicing hypocrite who preaches for your planned accident redneck-y-ness idea, and then does not mention/preach to the proper authorities, who have to manage those “planned accidents” you preach about on the internet.
BTW, Sally I think you should walk into a Mexican American bar, and preach about why “anyone should care about a idol on a tilma.”
Anything less smacks of hypocrisy with a large dose of cowardice from being a racist in the virtual world. Or to paraphrase Chesterton, I say a Sally must be certain of her morality of being a now self admitted redneck racist, for the simple reason one must suffer for it. And that “it” is being a racist towards the culture of Mexican Americans.
Care to expose yourself more Sally? Keep writing Sally, it becomes more clear your true opinions,wishes and judgements.
Or, you can express regret and ask for pardon for your offense againest Yllas, for your racist thoughts exposed here.
Hey, racist Sally. Someday I’ll tell you why those beautiful “brownskins” boys get a tattoo of that “idol on a tilma”. Being a racist, one is not allowed to know the REAL REASON why those beautiful brownskin boys get a tattoo of that “tilma of a idol.”
It keeps those racist being racist, and self admitted racist, such as you Sally, think nothing is being done about racist such as you Sally. Good thinking, racist Sally.
Tara, don’t feel bad. Texas Red used to make me sooooo mad, but if you really READ her posts, they are friggin laughable. Every other word is idiot. She has nothing to offer. She just spews her canned stupidity, and flies off on her broom. *winks*
TR –
But to explain this to you is pointless, you have no desire to know, hear or seek the truth. You are just a bitter person.
Tara, Iva(TexasRed)’s “arguments” haven’t changed in the last 6 years either, sadly. You’d think after that much time, she could have developed some better lines. She used to “debate” me on another forum a while back and nothing has changed by then. The best thing to do is just ignore her, because she simply cannot present a logical argument.
Bethany,
You are missed.
Bethany, I do miss you when you’re not around!
One more thing about Texas Red/Iva…I can’t believe that she’s never had an abortion. *shakes head* nope. You cannot tell me that she would get this hysterical over something that has never personally affected her life. So, I don’t buy it.
Thank you Heather. I don’t normally let people get to me that way. But we are really talking life and death hear. So when Sally says someting ridiculous like earlier in a pregnancy unborn babies don’t have limbs, I’m speechless. By 9 weeks they have developed their arms and legs and they have all their fingers and toes. The organs have developed.
I get bothered bc I had a miscarraige, and went through a D&C. I know how far my baby had developed when the ultrasound confirmed I had lost her. The greatest gift she (I’ve always think of the baby as a she) gave me was teaching me about life. She had a purpose, even though she was with me a short time. I thank God for that, for I trully didn’t understand what life meant until then. I cannot stand by anymore without trying to influence those around me. Which is why, Jesus would not want me to be mean spirited with those I disagree. I need to be truthful, but always with a gentle spirit and heart.
Tara, I would never ask you not to feel that way. Most of these pro choicers are grown women, and I believe that the must be held accountable for what they say! Society would hold you responsible for a wrong action, right? I have been subjected to some pretty vicious personal attacks. Believe me, they hurt! I didn’t find them funny either. However, I am starting to realize that some of them are just ignorant about the abortion issue. So, you have every right to feel badly.
Umm yes sally..I do have a daughter she’s hanging out in her playpen watching her morning dose of Dora the Explorer as we speak. I was making a light-hearted comment to you about not being very good at math and trying to be nice but if you want to condescend to me about my parenting skills that is fine. So no it is not speculation..I actually am a single mother of a little girl..which I have said NUMEROUS times on this site in case you missed it.
This would be her in case you don’t believe me…Ms. Sally.
Elizabeth, She’s beautiful!!:]
Elizabeth, she’s adorable.
Thanks ladies!!
Elizabeth, she’s gorgeous!
Does she look like you?
Elizabeth,
She is absolutely gorgeous. Knowing the PCers are going to ape; when are you going to start locking her up? :)
You are doing a great job, and you can tell by that smile and eyes. It tells all.
How’s class going? How many are you taking?
As a young mom, what is the greatest blessing you have received? What has been the hardest if you don’t mind me asking?
Elizabeth,
I just sent Danny the answers to Question one.
Have you go a pic I can send also?
I’ve already sent Jacquies…
Tara, please visit my blog and read my posts in the Pregnancy loss section. I have written about my experiences with miscarriage too and some articles in there (and some of the comments by other women in the same situation) may be comforting to you. I am sorry for your loss!
http://bethany.preciousinfants.com/categories/Pregnancy%20Loss.aspx
Bethany,
You are missed.
Posted by: mk at November 8, 2007 8:26 AM
Bethany, I do miss you when you’re not around!
Marykay and Heather, thanks so much for your kind words. The last few days have been horrid…all five of us had a really nasty flu. I’m hoping to be back to posting normally now that I’m recovering somewhat. :) I’ve missed you all too!
Dear mk —
The IUD is not “abortifacient” at all:
Evidence for these mechanisms includes physical examination of women’s eggs. When an ovum is fertilized, it begins to produce human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) near the time of implantation. A 1987 study to monitor hCG production in 40 women using IUDs found only one probable fertilized egg among 107 cycles. “Whatever the IUD’s specific mechanism of action, it appears that the IUD effectively interrupts the reproductive process before implantation,” the study concluded.4
Another way researchers have documented the IUD’s mechanism of action is to recover an ovum during a woman’s fertile period. Using this approach, researchers recovered ova from 115 women using no contraception and 56 women using IUDs.
Half of the women using no contraception who had intercourse during the fertile period had ova that were consistent in appearance with fertilized eggs. In contrast, none of the ova taken from copper IUD users who had intercourse appeared to be fertilized.
By 9 weeks they have developed their arms and legs and they have all their fingers and toes. The organs have developed.
Tara, actually, even before then they have fingers and toes. My little Blessing was only 6 weeks when I lost him or her, and here is a picture of how developed Blessing was:
http://www.preciousinfants.com/babyblessingtwo.jpg
I just sent Danny the answers to Question one.
Have you go a pic I can send also?
I’ve already sent Jacquies…
We’re seriously doing this?
Exactly what happens for the winner? I’ve consecrated my next 6 months to singleness.
Elizabeth, your daughter is so cute!
Jacquie,
Ahhhh don’t take it too seriously. I’m just using it as a way to torment Danny. He’s not taking it seriously. I’m not taking it seriously. You shouldn’t take it seriously. But it is giving him and me something to talk about. Australia is a looooong way away…
Bethany, get well! I hope the flu passes me by this year.
LOL tp… the PC side rightfully admitted in Supreme Court that::
—-The abortifacient nature of OCP and IUD use is openly admitted by the most ardent pro-abortion supporters. In his arguments before the Supreme Court in 1989, in a case that received worldwide publicity — the case of Webster versus Reproductive Health Services — Mr. Frank Susman, arguing for the pro-abortion side spoke to Justice Anthony Scalia and stated: “If I may suggest the reasons in response to your question, Justice Scalia. The most common forms of what we generally in common parlance call contraception today, IUD’s, and low-dose birth control pills, which are the safest type of birth control pills available, act as abortifacients. They are correctly labeled as both.”
Alderson Reporting Company. Transcripts of oral arguments before court on abortion case. The New York Times. April 27, 1989: B12
Also..
According to the manufacturers, how the ParaGard T 380A prevents pregnancy is not completely understood. Several theories have been suggested, as multiple birth control mechanisms may affect the ovum, sperm, and fertilized egg. Clinical studies with copper-bearing IUDs suggest that fertilization is prevented by killing sperm. However, it is also known that the ParaGard IUD does not prevent ovulation. Some sperm may in fact reach the egg, resulting in fertilization. When fertilization does occur, ParaGard is thought to act as birth control by preventing the embryo from implanting in the uterus. (www.contracept.info)
FYI>> It PREVENTS THE EMBRYO FROM IMPLANTING= ABORTIFACIENT>>>>
So you can not say that it ALWAYS does this but it DOES abort a conceived child. Percentage wise how often it does occur is of no value.. If it can and does act as an abortifacient then it is an abortifacient.
Yvonne, excellent post!
Heather, I hope that the flu will pass you by too!
MK, I will get you a pic as soon as I put my daughter down for her nap..and Tara I will answer your questions then too!!
Ahhhh don’t take it too seriously. I’m just using it as a way to torment Danny. He’s not taking it seriously. I’m not taking it seriously. You shouldn’t take it seriously. But it is giving him and me something to talk about. Australia is a looooong way away…
I wasn’t- that’s why I was shocked that you’re actually sending questions and responses.
Exactly what happens for the winner? I’ve consecrated my next 6 months to singleness.
Posted by: Jacqueline at November 8, 2007 10:50 AM
Oh Jacque, don’t do that! Don’t you remember that story of the old woman and the flood? Three rescue boats came by to save her and she always said “No, God will save me.” Then she died and God welcomed her into heaven and she said “I’m happy to be here but why didn’t you save me?” And God answered “Whadda mean? I sent three boats!”
God might send you the perfect man in those 6 months, but he’s not getting any younger and then goes out to find someone else. Even if you eventually do get together think of the time you’ve wasted! That might mean you only have 16 kids rather than 17. ;)
Ok, MK…here is a pic of me for you..you can’t really see how long my hair is in the pic..but I have long brown hair.
and Jacqueline..I spend so much time with her I have a hard time telling if she looks a ton like me haha so here is a pic for you to determine that.
I know she has her “father’s” nose and eyebrows…but her smile and eyes are mine I think.
And while I was getting all these pics together, I found one that was funny that you would all get a kick out of so here you go:
God might send you the perfect man in those 6 months, but he’s not getting any younger and then goes out to find someone else. Even if you eventually do get together think of the time you’ve wasted! That might mean you only have 16 kids rather than 17. ;)
It was God’s idea, not mine, so I trust that He’ll work within His own parameters. God told me to do this through several people- including a priest.
I was dumped 9 months ago and I’m still in pieces over it. Normally, I just get over boys with other boys, but I had an affair with a new boy up to a month ago and, while it was fun and distracting, I still hadn’t worked through the pain I had from before. I’m doing that now.
Tara, Class is going great thanks for asking…I was taking three classes..now I am down to two because the nursing courses only last 8 weeks. My other 2 are online so I have much time to spend with my daughter which is great! I’m taking a introductory Bio class so I can refresh myself before taking the more challenging science courses and a lifespan psych course which I find very interesting.
As far as my greatest blessing is concerned…I think it would have to be growing up. I had to grow up really quick having my daughter. Since I had her when I was 20 (got pregnant at 19) many people consider that young and I was very immature before I had her. I was pretty much one of the most selfish, bratty girls alive. Didn’t want to do anything that inconvenienced me or my life. Oh and stupid too. When I think back at all the things I did prior to my daughter..I just cringe and think stupid,stupid,stupid. But then I got pregnant, her father ran away to florida, I moved back home and came back down to reality real quick. It’s funny when people abandon you…you find out how strong you really are. So my greatest gift my daughter ever gave me was that she saved me from a life of selfishness and stupidity. She made me grow up way beyond my years and I am so thankful it happened sooner rather than later. Worse things would have happened to me if it had been later trust me.
As far as the most challenging for me is figuring out where it is that I want my life to go. Before I got pregnant I was a musical theatre/dance major in college and those type of careers aren’t exactly conducive to providing for another person. The term “starving artist” comes to mind. It’s hard for dancers to support themselves let alone a child. So I had to completely rearrange what kind of career I was going to have. But having spent much time in doctors offices and hospitals lead me to nursing. I am very interested in the medical field and love helping other people so the nursing field I think is a great option for me. But it took me a while to figure that out. Imagine dancing your whole life and then having to figure something else out. I never even thought about doing anything else besides dancing, so it was hard to find a career that I thought I could fit into. Now that I have I feel much more driven and focused…but getting there was really hard for me.
MK…I sent the pics but the comment has to be approved first so you should get them soon!
She looks JUST like you, Elizabeth!
You are both beautiful!
Can’t believe I’m posting in the 400’s!
Elizabeth you and the baby are absolutely beautiful!
Just think, if you had an abortion you wouldn’t have been smiling all cute like that.
See? Such courage.
Ever wondered how cute Lilith would have been, Erin?
Elizabeth,
If I were to put your testimony next to an I-regret-my-abortion one, the contrast just comes alive!
I was a Music Theatre major too. Didn’t do a thing with the degree. But it was being around other CHILDREN that helped me see where I was truly being called to do: teach elementary school.
And you’re grinning with your baby girl!
If it’s not getting too personal, where in FL did daddy run off to? I live in the Sunshine State.
Elizabeth, you and your daughter sure are beautiful!! She’s lucky to have you.
Lillith, that’s really a beautiful name.
Who named Erin’s baby Lilith?
Elizabeth, I just want to pinch your daughter’s adorable little cheeks. She’s so damned cute. And if you need help in biology, don’t hesitate to ask me or Rae…we’re both science geeks. Don’t know if you’ve talked to Rae on here yet, she’s got limited internet access at this time. She is, however, unbelievably awesome. :D
And by the way, if you’ll direct me to where your daughter’s daddy is, I have to inform him that his ass has a meeting scheduled with my foot. I’m pretty sure that most of the other ladies on here have the same message for him.
Haha…aww you ladies are sure great..thanks for all the kind words!! And he was working at Disney World for a while after he ran off…ironic huh? Working at a place FOR KIDS! But doesn’t even care to take care of his own. ahhh well…he lives in bolingbrook now after he came back from florida…half hour away from me and has never even MET his daughter. paaathetic.
Elizabeth,
Your little girl’s eyes! I am such an “eye” person. The first thing I noticed.
Jaqueline,
Lilith is the name Erin gave her “idea” when she was briefly pregnant. That was her surviving twin. The other little guy slipped out before his time. Lilith was the survivor for so fleeting a moment.
Elizabeth,
Wouldn’t you know, I used to work for Mickey Mouse, too. Deadbeat didn’t work at Magic Kingdom, did he?
And what made you choose life instead of abortion?
Lyssie 4:30pm
Amen sister! This is one lady who definitely has the same message! I’d like to leave behind a some shoe leather as well, if you catch my drift. Let’s just say he would spend a week trying to remove it.
for Heather,
abortionists had to leave the back alley; their neighbors complained of too much stench!
Kinda wonder what happens to these people in prison? Most prison populations dislike child-killers. So wonder if they would accept the ‘personhood’ distinction?
Haha Carder, no he worked at the front desk for one of the hotels, I can not for the life of me remember which one. I’m sure disney world would be so proud to have a convicted felon around all their little kiddies that visit there all the time.
Ohhh, Mary and Lyssie..you’ll have to get behind a long line of my family members to do some butt-kicking.
*takes a number and gets in line*
Elizabeth, I’ll wait.
:D
*gets out steel-tipped boots*
You know what, I’ll bypass his ass altogether and aim for certain other….areas….near his front regions…. ahem….
0:)
HAHAAA…lyssie you crack me up!! seriously girl..you rock. you could just harass him on myspace or facebook..less permanent damage but equally as fun. I never advocate harrassment….but with this one…I think it’s warranted.
Oh, no problem, Elizabeth. I just figure if everyone else is in line to kick his ASS, I could just get into the other line, which I”m assuming is shorter…to kick other parts of him. :D
My first harassing message:
“I have a riddle for you. What’s two years old, cute as a button, and has half of your genetic material?
Give up already? Obviously, it’s what we’ve come to expect.”
Oh, and what’s wrong with permanent damage? I’m sure Jacquie will help me. *gigglepees herself*
haha lyssie…that message is the BEST…I would send that to him MYSELF…but then that would mean I am communicating with him. And ICK who wants to do that?
And you want to know what the worst part of the whole thing is? HE IS 27..I mean he is damn near 30 and can’t even ACT like an adult. I am 22 now..19 when I got pregnant and 20 when I had her..and I am MORE of an adult than a dude who is looking to turn 30 very soon.
Lyssie, 9:44pm
Now why didn’t I think of that!
Eh, I could swear myself hoarse (and get subsequently banned from the site for doing so) saying what I think of him, Elizabeth. *makes horrible strangling gesture in midair*
Just think, he’s missing out on your cute little girl. You have her ALL TO YOURSELF. Elizabeth for the win!!
Although it is selfish of me to think so Lyssie…I agree. I love having her to myself. Although I would have never minded sharing her if he weren’t such a frickin’ loser. You wouldn’t even BELIEVE the stories I could tell you. They are THAT ridiculous. But she’s got 3 uncles who are pretty cool most of the time and a rockin’ grandpa…2 dogs..and a kitty. So I hope those suffice til our knight in shining armor comes along.
Elizabeth,
Our next Halle Berry perhaps? She’s certainly pretty enough to give Halle a run for her money some day.
Yay, I’m glad she has pets. I’m going so insane here at college without my true loves… (all five of my cats and three of my dogs). :D
I should post pictures…but I’m not quite sure how to get them approved…or even how to do it.
Wait, did you mention your daughter’s name?
Mary…haha we shall see…I entered her in the babyGap photo contest…so if she makes the finalists that people can vote for..I will let everyone know so they can go vote for her! But if she becomes famous..I’m not going to let her act all crazy like britney or lindsay..I’m going to have to keep her in check.
Her name is Gabriella.
Elizabeth, 10:51PM
…and support you in style!
That’s a really pretty name.
Tell Gabriella if I ever figure out how to do it, I’ll post a picture of my huge, sweet fat cat (30 lb feline with a heart of gold) for her to look at. :P
Haha I’ll show her it too…and she will get super excited and say “kiggy” haha or that is what is sounds like to me. All you have to do is upload the pic to a photo hosting site like photobucket and get the code..copy and paste. Easy as pie!
Ok, I have photobucket…. will the pic directly show up in the blog here? Like yours and Jackie’s did?
You have to copy it under the code that says for websites and blogs and then it will.
I’ll upload it tomorrow, then…for now I have to go to bed so I can get up early and complete my studying for a bio exam. Have fun!
Good Night..I have to go to bed too..Gabriella will be jumping on me early tomorrow morning to wake up so I better sleep while I can! Good night all!
John McD, hahahaha…I really hope that “Finkel the twit” gets exactly what he deserves in prison!! *wink*…………… oops! You ah dropped the soap there buddy.
Gigglepee. Sounds like a new brand of babydoll.
“Mom, I want a GigglePee for Christmas!”
Lilith is the name Erin gave her “idea” when she was briefly pregnant. That was her surviving twin. The other little guy slipped out before his time. Lilith was the survivor for so fleeting a moment.
At least one of her kids got to live his/her natural life.
Gabriella is a gorgeous name, by the way.
A) Do you know what else has cute little eyes and ears (and not to mention the ability to live without being attached to another human being)? THE WOMAN CARRYING A FETUS! But who the hell cares about the vessel anyway? Must make way for the holy zygote!
B) Saying that “if you don’t want to get pregnant don’t have sex” is like saying “if you don’t want to get in a car accident don’t drive. or walk near a road. or live near any traffic whatsoever.” or “if you don’t want to be catch a cold don’t go out in public or outdoors for half the year.” Who’s in?
C) If sex is supposed to be for making babies only, then ALL marriages that don’t result in children within 5 years must be dissolved. And all married parents whose children have left home must relinquish their marriage certificates immediately. How’s that work for you?
I’m glad that so many of you like being insulted by Stanek!
…I love you.
Pro-choice, sarcastic, Harry Potter fan. Amazing.
Dr. Granger, you actually have a PhD? LOL!
Dude, Hermione was crazy brilliant. I would be a lesbian for Hermione. She’s on my list of 5 people who could make me gay.
Erin,
totally know what you mean…while the film-version Hermione is disappointing, I’d totally go down on Emma Watson.
Oh shit…Teh Gayz iz on a pro-opreshuin site! sheeeeet!
Glad there’s something/someone on here that doesn’t make me want to cry!
Hi Heater,
folks that go o university say:
1st Degree – BS (Bull Sn*t)
2nd Degree – MS (More of the Same)
last one – PhD (Piled higher and Deeper)
Yeah…it gets kind of frustrating. I’m pretty sure I’m a masochist at some level, because I come here everyday as a pro-choicer and just beat my head against a wall. I dunno why I do it!
John, ROFLMAO!!
Jacquie, Elizabeth:
Here are a few pics of some of my pets, my first and only true loves left at home while I languish here at college. (Although I have a close substitute…my boyfriend is seriously cute.)
^This my favorite picture of my miniature dachshund longhair puppy, Fraulein Inga Von Schnitzel (I named her…hee hee).
^You can see my giant fat cat takes the bottom, his brother takes the next level, and our teensy tiny little kitty takes the top platform. I thought this picture was awesome. LOL.
^Big Boy again. Keep in mind this chair was built to be wide enough and strong enough to fit my father, who is 250 lbs. This cat is the coolest feline ever…even my male friends love him. Plus I caught my dad on the floor kissing this cat and using baby talk to him…so…even my big macho dad isn’t immune. *giggle*
I don’t seem to have a picture of my other two cats directly…you can see my chubby tortoiseshell female in the background of the two kitties fighting, but the gray tabby female I have is skittish and never sticks around long enough for a picture. She’s awesome though.
And my two German shepherds are missing for some reason from my animal pictures…I’ll look some more and get back to you. The one is the most spectacularly beautiful, smart, obedient dog ever. And she’s a big sissy…never in her life would she ever hurt anyone. (A three year old girl came into our office, and this dog HID HER BIG BODY behind a trash can). Oddly enough, her name is Jezebel (yes, I know, GASP!). We named her for the specific purpose of making people think she was a tough, mean guard dog (at our business’s office), and she’s the sweetest, most lovable animal ever. Kinda backfired.
I uploaded the pictures, Elizabeth, I just have to have them approved by someone here. :) I also have pictures of a couple other “kiggies” and my little doggie Inga Bing.
John Mc,
Was that supposed to be sarcastic/insulting? If so, then: FAIL. Oh rampant anti-intellectualism in America *sigh* P.S. correct spelling, especially of a poster’s name, really helps! Good luck!
Erin, only came here through Pandagon. At least there we come together as one and beat our collective head against the wall. With added sarcasm!
I was skimming through other comments and saw someone wrote “Abortion industry.” LOL! As if PP (you know, the DEVIL) made money! Ha, they wish! See, the thing about being a non-profit is that you don’t. make. profit. Hence why it’s affordable to the poor, usually minority, women who go there for HEALTH CARE other than an abortion procedure.
Also, “Fertility is not an disease” (way to be original…); lack of control over one’s body and future due to societal forces IS.
So..Doctor…Pregnancy is a disease then? Because whether you choose to carry a pregnancy or not..pregnancy itself exhibits a lack of control over one’s body..so by YOUR definition, pregnancy would be a disease.
P.S. A doctor using the phrase LOL really makes you look legitimate by the way.
Awww Lyssie..you have TWO german shepherds…you get an A+ from meeee..I LOVE german shepherds..My Mr.Hemingway is a german shepherd-rottweiler mix..he’s a cutie although he is all old and lumpy now. But he was quite the cutie in his day.
1) You ignored the part where I said “due to SOCIETAL forces.” Keeping a pregnancy is *hopefully* a CHOICE with the full knowledge of what your body goes through during and after those 9 months. If you choose pregnancy without getting pressured to due so by society or a partner, that = control.
2) If you think of what your body goes through during pregnancy, the pregnancy ITSELF (NOT the baby) is *like* a sickness. One that has a usually happy outcome (the baby! yes, I like babies!).
3) So either I’m too intellectual by using PhD, or I’m a joke by using LOL, a common shorthand in blog comments? Hmm. oh, wait, anti-*choice* blog!
Jacqueline 9:21am
That sounds like what happens when someone says something funny to us old broads!
Jacqueline,
I meant your 9:19am post!