Jamie Lynn Spears pregnant
Britney Spears’ 16-year-old sister Jamie Lynn announced today she is just over 12 weeks pregnant by 19-year-old boyfriend (and statutory rapist – see page 57), Casey Aldridge, 19.
What we have here is a young girl who made a mistake and is responding admirably thus far. From OK! magazine:
“I can’t say it was something I was planning to do right now,” the 16-year-old confesses to OK!. “But now that it’s in my lap and that it’s something I have to deal with, I’m looking forward to being the best mom I can be.”…
And Jamie Lynn, who intends on raising the child in her home state of Louisiana, also tells OK! that she intends to face up to the life-changing choice she’s made. “I’m the one who has to live with it for the rest of my life,” she says. “I put myself in this position, an adult position, so I have to act like an adult and take responsibility for what I did.”…
As for any message Jamie Lynn’s fans might take away from this news, the young actress is realistic. “I definitely don’t think it’s something you should do; it’s better to wait. But I can’t be judgmental because it’s a position I put myself in.”
Added People:
Spears told [Ok!] magazine that after confirming the pregnancy with a home test and a subsequent doctor’s visit, she told only one friend – then waited two weeks before telling anybody else, including her parents.
“I needed to work out what I would do for myself before I let anyone’s opinion affect my decision,” she told the magazine. “Then I told my parents and my friends. I was scared, but I had to do what was right for me.”
The pressures on this girl to abort must have been enormous. Imagine. Her decision likely cost her the starring role on Nickelodeon’s highly rated Zoey 101, a show about a wholesome teen that was nominated for an “Outstanding Childrens Program” Emmy in 2005.
And it also likely cost her mother her book deal on parenting, due out in 2008. According to the Washington Post, “Yesterday the publishing house announced that the book’s printing would be delayed… indefinitely.”
And certainly Jamie understood the brutal response her news would bring. And sure enough, liberal blogs are treating the news viciously, hypocritical pigs. They promote premarital sex and call those advocating abstinence Neanderthals, but then have this to say about Jamie, quoting Perez Hilton:
Dang. We thought Jamie Lynn was the nice and normal one.
Now we know she’s just trailer trash like her sister!!!
Other blog comments:
“another spears retard…”
“abortion. abortion. abortion.”
“i used to love and respect jamie but now i don’t she is having a baby! that is so yuk, discusting and wrong at sixteen…”
Some are asking what sort of role model Jamie Lynn is. I say, an admirably brave, mature one. She is admitting her mistake and trying to do the right thing on the other side. Abortion is the cowardly way out.
[HT: new Stanek proofreader Angela and reader AB Laura; photo credit: People]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Some are asking what sort of role model Jamie Lynn is. I say, an admirably brave, mature one. She is admitting her mistake and trying to do the right thing on the other side. Abortion is the cowardly way out.
This is true…I’m just hoping she doesn’t take parenting tips from the older sis. I hope she can find a good motherly role model to help her as she is becoming a new parent. Because it’s obvious her mom nor her sister have any tangibly good advice on being a parent.
I do hope the best for her though. And she is doing the right thing here, which is a step in the right direction towards becoming a good parent.
Isn’t it amazing that it is always the ones who accuse US of being intolerant towards people who have sex, who have such nasty things to say to those who do…. Good grief. The only reason they’ve got a problem with it is cause she’s keeping the baby. If she was having an abortion they’d be applauding her, not calling her “trailer trash”.
What a good role model she is being by taking responsibility for her actions.
Amen, Bethany!
It’s funny how when people decide to do the hard thing, which is usually also the right thing, they get ridiculed to no end about it. I remember the crap people said to me when they found out I was pregnant, and they didn’t even KNOW me before. Go Jamie Lynn Spears, my fingers are crossed for her.
Let’s re-name Jamie to “Juno”.
You think she’ll go watch it?
“Abortion is the cowardly way out”
Sing it, sister Jill.
What I want to know is what kind of parent lets their 16 year old daughter shack up with her 19 year old boyfriend.
I wish her luck and hope everything turns out better for her than for her sister, but I agree with Perez. The entire family is trailer trash.
Samantha, are you pro-choice?
Bethany-
I’m pro-life. Why?
The pressures on this girl to abort must have been enormous.
One can only imagine! Does any one think that the she is no longer pressured since it is in the news? To abort that is.
Regarding the loathsome term “trailer trash”:
The next time you find yourself tempted to refer to a person created in the image and likeness of God as “trash” — DON’T.
Bethany,
You are soooo right. The hypocracy never ceases to amaze me. What happened to CHOICE?? Isn’t that their mantra? PCer’s should be supporting her bc she made her choice. They aren’t about choice they are about abortion. And if you choose life then you’re an idot, stupid, uneducated and the list goes on and on.
Sorry, Samantha, I did not know one way or the other. I don’t know if you’re the same Samantha I talked to on another topic or not. Was just trying to figure that out. Thanks for letting me know! :)
“And sure enough, liberal blogs are treating the news viciously, hypocritical pigs. They promote premarital sex and call those advocating abstinence Neanderthals, but then have this to say about Jamie”
amen Jill.
Erm…I support her choice and all, but the Spears ladies don’t seem to have a very good track record with kids. Why are you guys praising a little girl for having loads and bunchies of premaritial sex? Innit kinda against the rules?
Tara, I totally agree.
Erm…I support her choice and all, but the Spears ladies don’t seem to have a very good track record with kids. Why are you guys praising a little girl for having loads and bunchies of premaritial sex? Innit kinda against the rules?
Who was praising the premarital sex? We are happy she stepped up and took responsibility for her actions.
I agree with Erin.
I support her decision to keep her baby. That’s what she obviously feels is the best decision for her.
She has had no good role model for parenting. I hope she can overcome this and be a great mom.
And John:
Maybe you’ve never been to the south (I live here so I know). Trailer trash and “rednecks” run rampant in small towns. Maybe you should visit some small (Mayberry sized) towns in Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Tenn. or Mississippi to see what Samantha and I are talking about.
That is why they are called pro aborts. They are not for choice.
I don’t think it is so much about being responsible as it is about having love in her heart. Being responsible is great, but having love for others is greater.
Jaime seems like a nice young woman and has just as much chance to be a good mom as anyone else. She needs support not hateful attacks. Teens are wonderful people and deserve our respect especially when they make good decisions. Teens have been parents since time began and have done as well as moms who are a few years older. I wish her and her precious baby the best. Hopefully her boyfriend will be a good dad. He needs encouragement too. It is so important to love and help new parents because we need to remember we are all in this together. We all need each other at different times. We should embrace the opportunity to help another and we will find a real joy in it.
Okay now Laura can post her skewed statistics that show that a whopping 20% more kids of teens are in prison. Yeah, that’s right 6 in 100,000 instead of 5 in 100,000 for kids of older moms.
Where is Doug?
That transformer explosion in Jacksonville is pretty impressive.
And while I am at it John:
I live in Birmingham, the biggest city in Alabama and there are rednecks and trailer trash living here as well.
Teens have been parents since time began and have done as well as moms who are a few years older.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No.
I’m not posting the stats again, but teenagers are notoriously crappy parents. The children of teens fare VERY poorly.
…And which one of you would choose Jamie Lynn’s village to raise YOUR child?
*sigh*
Good for her, she’s doing what’s best for her. I just really do feel bad for her that she’s lacking good role models in the way of parenting. I sincerely hope she can find better guidance than her bald, neurotic older sister and the mother that allowed said older sister to go down such a destructive path. *sigh again*
Midnite678 said:
Maybe you’ve never been to the south (I live here so I know). Trailer trash and “rednecks” run rampant in small towns.
I’ve been to Louisiana, and I’ve seen people there who live in abject poverty. But note that they are people — real, flesh and blood, people; not garbage.
The next time you find yourself tempted to refer to a person created in the image and likeness of God as “trash”, ask yourself, “Am I full of crap?”
And, then, resist the temptation.
I’m no better than you are. You’re no better than I am. And neither of us is any better than anybody else.
And none of us is “trash”.
” Trailer trash and “rednecks” run rampant in small towns. Maybe you should visit some small (Mayberry sized) towns in Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Tenn. or Mississippi to see what Samantha and I are talking about.”
Hey Midnite, we have trailer parks up here in Massachusetts too, I don’t refer to them as trailer trash though. I know what you mean, but it’s not nice to refer to them as trailer trash, many of these people have it tough.
And none of us is “trash”.
Posted by: John Jansen at December 19, 2007 2:38 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No.
‘Nite’s parents are cops.
I’ve worked on the periphery of law enforcement for years.
Deal with the general public on that level for any length of time and you’ll find that some people are really… just… TRASH.
(You learn to spot them pretty fast.)
Trailer Trash: The term is also applied to lower-class white people in general (hence the occasional “white trailer park trash”, or “white trash”), as a stereotype, regardless of where they actually live.
Redneck: in modern usage, predominantly refers to a particular stereotype of people who may be found in many regions of the United States or Canada. Originally limited to the Appalachians , and later the Ozarks and Rocky Mountains, this stereotype is now widespread in northern states and the Canadian provinces. The word can be used either as a pejorative or as a matter of pride. Rednecks span from the poor to the working class.
All found on http://www.wikipedia.org
Yllas, if you’re out there, you should come to our place for Christmas. My family actually likes fruitcakes.
Jasper,
Read please:
Trailer Trash is a stereotype, regardless of where they actually live.
Someone can have a million dollars (like Britney Spears) and still be trailer trash/redneck. Which ever term you prefer.
————————————-
John:
No, I am not full of crap, but then again, I dont run around and act a damn fool like Britney Spears either.
And this whole “image of God” argument will not work or “convert me”. Him and me have issues and I dont like him anymore.
And since I dont know you; you might be better than me. I dont know. I know people that I am better than. One that comes to mind is whoring herself around Cali to pay for her crystal meth. I think even Jasper is better than her.
And Jasper:
I am not saying that everyone who is, has or will live in a trailer is “trash”. That simply is not the truth. It’s a way of thinking, and they way they live their life that makes them that way; not where the live or how much $$ they have in the bank.
The children of teens fare VERY poorly.
Posted by: Laura at December 19, 2007 2:30 PM
A lot of the kids of teens don’t do well here because of the lack of support from family. Here we blame women for getting pregnant and often ignore the father’s connection. So she is often abandoned by the dad and a judgemental family and is stuck with more of a burden than nature intended. In other countries they get married and their inlaws are supportive and they do well. In some countries (including this one only a few years back) most females were married with children before they were 20. It is called normal, even healthy. Sexual maturity is the biological definition of adulthood. No animals reproduce before they become adults. It doesn’t matter that we make laws that say people aren’t adults till 18 or any other age. Nature determines maturity.
. Sexual maturity is the biological definition of adulthood. No animals reproduce before they become adults. It doesn’t matter that we make laws that say people aren’t adults till 18 or any other age. Nature determines maturity.
Posted by: hippie at December 19, 2007 2:52 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nope.
Studies have suggested that humans don’t reach adulthood until they are 26.
As for sexual maturity, many creatures can breed before they reach physical and emotional maturity. If the pregnancy doesn’t kill them, they tend to abandon or eat/stomp/gore their young.
It doesn’t matter that we make laws that say people aren’t adults till 18 or any other age. Nature determines maturity.
Interesting thought process Hippie.
Let me ask you some questions then.
(1)If a girl at the age or 8 or 9 gets her period, then she is indeed, an adult?
(2)If she is indeed an adult, is it wrong (b/c biology determined this) for a 19 year old man to get her pregnant?
If she wants to continue her pregnancy then thats her choice. Im pro choice even if I personally think the choice made isnt the smartest one. Her sister isnt raising HER kids -I wonder who will actually be raising THIS baby. Hopefully its someone who will be able to do a better job than was done with the two mothers.
The pressures on this girl to abort must have been enormous.
One can only imagine! Does any one think that the she is no longer pressured since it is in the news? To abort that is.
Posted by: Vlad at December 19, 2007 2:04 PM
*************************
Look at how much attention pregnancy and childbirth got her sister. Look at how many news stories still center on her kids. I seriously doubt if she even considered abortion for even a moment.
Laura and Midnite,
When there are billions of members of a species, you can find a few strange instances. They are nowhere near the norm. The fact that billions of women under the age of 18 have been good moms over the past millenia is certainly sufficient evidence that you don’t need to be 18 much less 26 to be a good mom.
I have said this before that the studies that say your brain changes don’t prove that it is less mature. The studies are imaging studies that can’t determine function, which is what really matters. Stress and disease also cause measurable physical changes in the brain. That doesn’t make the person unreasonable or irresponsible. One well known French author went in one day for a brain scan which showed his brain was only one third normal size, yet functions normally. Same thing happened to my friend’s daughter. She had headaches and they found have her head filled with fluid and a benign tumor, all without impact on her functioning. She is on the schools chess team and is a star student. I had a student with a similar condition that wasn’t discovered till after she graduated. She was the president of two student clubs where I was teaching.
As for Jaime’s 19 year old boyfriend, I hope he is happy and is a good dad. I don’t see anything weird about a 16 year old and a 19 year old.
I don’t think teen pregnancy is ideal and I think young people should wait till they are in committed relationships such as marriage because I think they will be healthier and happier. If they want to use birth control, that is their business. I don’t think they should kill their baby just because they are young and because society is not supportive of young parents. I see society as a greater obstacle to their success than their youth.
Everyone is commenting her because she didn’t use birth control. THAT’S the issue. Just more proof of the disadvantages of abstinence-only sexual education. Instead of praising her as a child mother that chose to keep the baby, why not use this as a prime opportunity to promote birth control?
Hippie:
I am not against teen mothers nor do I think they will mess their child up more than an adult can.
But since you said that biology determines maturity, is it ok for a 19 year old to get a nine year old pregnant? She’s started her period, so according to your theory of biology, she should be mature enough to be a mother.
Is this correct, or no?
“One that comes to mind is whoring herself around Cali to pay for her crystal meth. I think even Jasper is better than her.”
why thank-you Midnite.
No problem Jasper :P
Everyone is commenting her because she didn’t use birth control. THAT’S the issue. Just more proof of the disadvantages of abstinence-only sexual education. Instead of praising her as a child mother that chose to keep the baby, why not use this as a prime opportunity to promote birth control?
How do you know she wasn’t using birth control? Perhaps it failed. 50 percent of abortions happen when women’s birth control fails.
The difference between a 9 year old and a 19 year old is 10 years – between 16 and 19 is three. There are lots and lots of teenaged couples out there who are 3 years of each others age. There is nothing odd or outrageous about it. Talking about ‘uh uh uh what if she was 9?!? what about THAT?’ is pointless. Sixteen is considered the ‘age of consent’ in quite a few places – 9 isnt old enough to ‘consent’ anywhere.
How old is the mother anyway? Im wondering how old she was when she started having kids –
Everyone is commenting her because she didn’t use birth control. THAT’S the issue. Just more proof of the disadvantages of abstinence-only sexual education. Instead of praising her as a child mother that chose to keep the baby, why not use this as a prime opportunity to promote birth control?
And what exactly makes you think she had abstinence-only sexual education?
According to the internet, she is 52. :-)
And what exactly makes you think she had abstinence-only sexual education?
Really!
Ok, so I saw this yesterday night.
It’s great that Jamie is doing what is best for HER and I daresay most pro-choicers would agree with me when I say that. It’s her choice, and I’m glad that she was the one that made it on her own without influence from anyone. Single teenage moms have it really hard, but hopefully she’ll pull through and be a better mom than her sister is being.
TexasRed:
Maybe you missed Hippies post:
A lot of the kids of teens don’t do well here because of the lack of support from family. Here we blame women for getting pregnant and often ignore the father’s connection. So she is often abandoned by the dad and a judgemental family and is stuck with more of a burden than nature intended. In other countries they get married and their inlaws are supportive and they do well. In some countries (including this one only a few years back) most females were married with children before they were 20. It is called normal, even healthy. Sexual maturity is the biological definition of adulthood. No animals reproduce before they become adults. It doesn’t matter that we make laws that say people aren’t adults till 18 or any other age. Nature determines maturity.
Hence the reason I asked the question about a 9 year old…
I prefer to give her the benefit of the doubt. I know several teens that behave better than their parents. She has one, arguably two, models of what NOT to do. She obviously won’t struggle with money as so many parents (young and old) do. So I don’t see why this baby doesn’t have as good a chance as any to be successful in life.
And what exactly makes you think she had abstinence-only sexual education?
Sadly, I don’t think either of the Spears girls received much of an education at all. Neither of them even went to a high school.
Re: Trailer Trash – I know the conversation is way up there and we’ve all forgotten about it, but since John Jansen was not happy with the use of that label I thought I’d address it.
We may all be created in the image and likeness of god, but we are not all the same. I am better than some people, and there are many people who are better than me. I strive daily to be more like those people. I believe it helps make ME a better person.
Those who disrespect themselves and others by making poor choices and treating themselves and others badly, well, I consider them trash. Granted, “trailer trash” is not a term I would normally use in everyday conversation, I used it because it was mentioned in Jill’s entry.
And what exactly makes you think she had abstinence-only sexual education?
Possibly the fact that the Federal Gov funds Abstinice Only Education, and does not touch Comprehensive sex education.
We may all be created in the image and likeness of god, but we are not all the same. I am better than some people, and there are many people who are better than me. I strive daily to be more like those people. I believe it helps make ME a better person.
What exactly do you determine to be better? Do you not believe that way of thinking is a matter of perception characteristic of each individual?
Those who disrespect themselves and others by making poor choices and treating themselves and others badly, well, I consider them trash. Granted, “trailer trash” is not a term I would normally use in everyday conversation, I used it because it was mentioned in Jill’s entry
YOU may consider them trash..but that does not deem them so. I don’t think God considers many people “trash” or even thinks in such terms.
I don’t think calling this girl names does much to help her be a good parent.
midnite,
I don’t mean to be ridiculous. I honestly think that biology determines adulthood, not laws or society. Since you have to draw the line somewhere, 18 is pretty good. In the US only about 3 percent of women under 18 have babies. I don’t think that 3% is outrageous. Compared to historical norms and the biological possibility of far more being parents, it is very low.
As for the 9 year old, the percent of menstruating 9 year olds is way below 1% and represents an unusual circumstance possibly something is medically wrong in at least some cases if not most. I think most anyone would agree that the age of consent laws are designed to protect everyone including those with precocious puberty. I think it would be mighty weird for a 19 year old man to be interested in a 9 year old whether or not she has a medical condition. I support a reasonable age of consent law. I don’t think we should berate teen moms or pressure them to abort. Teens are people like everyone else. Their feelings of love for their children are just as valid as anyone elses. Even people that some say are not responsible still feel love for their kids and want what is best for them. Remember teens aren’t teens forever. We were all teens, and we weren’t all creepy or anything. I know teens who practically take care of their whole family because of serious illness of their parent. People pull together and help.
I’m not sure what you mean by “perception characteristic.”
There a lots of people who are so selfless. People who give more of themselves than me. I’ll be honest, I’d like to volunteer more for organizations and causes I believe in, but I often find myself “too busy” or overwhelmed with the prospect. There are those who are busier than me, work more hours, spend less time farting around on the internet than I do, who MAKE time to volunteer, or donate that extra money they find in the bottom of their purse rather than buying a coffee. I think those people are better than me. There are people who are more patient than me, less interested in gossip than me, more tolerant of small children than me (hee hee). I think of all those people as better than me – in those areas.
Elizabeth-
My feelings about god are different than your’s, but I’m not getting into that here. Yes, I do consider some people to be trash or trashy.
And, by the way, I’ve been called names on this very board, by my fellow pro-lifers. I guess I just assumed folks around here were just fine with name-calling.
That was me.
OK, some people ARE trash. Anyone who’s been seriously involved with crime in some way knows that. John, would you look me in the eye and tell me that the man who shot me and shot and killed my boyfriend in a mugging gone wrong isn’t the scum of the earth? Would you tell the victim of any crime that the person who brought serious violence against them that the person who did it is a beloved child of God? Cause seriously, if someone told me that, I’d probably hit them. I wouldn’t be able to control myself.
Well like I said, I don’t think calling this girl names helps her to be a good parent to her child.
And to answer your other question, isn’t what one person views as “better” than another person a matter of interpretation. Like beauty is in the eye of the beholder I mean. Sorry I was kind of vague above.
“Every person is worth more than his/her worst act.”
-Sister Helen Prejean (I may have spelled her last name wrong sorry)
It’s not statutory rape. It says (on page 57) she has to be under age 16. She turned 16 on April 4th and she’s now 3 months pregnant. Might want to correct that.
Hippie:
Actually girls are starting to go through puberty earlier than ever before. Researchers think it has to do with all the extra “additives” in food these days.
Well like I said, I don’t think calling this girl names helps her to be a good parent to her child.
Well, perhaps you are a better person than me in this instance! : )
Thanks for clarifying your point. I guess I think there are just some things that are universally seen as “better” (generosity, kindness) and “worse” (violent crime, cruelty).
Tina: The statute of limitations has not expired, so technically he could be charged with statutory rape, but highly doubt he will be.
midnite678:
Statute of limitations for what? She was older than 16 when she got pregnant. The law in LA says she had to be younger than 16. Should it be statutory rape because everyone is assuming they had sex earlier than that too?
If they’ve been living together, one can logically conclude that they had sex before she actually got pregnant Tina.
So, going on the assumption that they had sex before that when she was 15, then yes it is statutory rape. I am not sure what CA’s statut of limitations is, but it is 3 years in Alabama (to file charges).
That is why they are called pro aborts. They are not for choice.
Hippie, if somebody is saying that she should have an abortion, then they are as anti-choice as any pro-lifer.
As a Pro-Choicer, I wish her the best, and hope that things go well for her.
Doug
Hippie, if somebody is saying that she should have an abortion, then they are as anti-choice as any pro-lifer.
Pro-lifers are anti-abortion, not anti-choice. Anti-choice is vague and leaves a person wondering what “choice” is being referred to. We are anti-abortion. Clears the confusion up quite nicely.
Where is Doug? That transformer explosion in Jacksonville is pretty impressive.
Laura, just back from Michigan. I hadn’t heard of that, but now it’s said that the explosion was at a chemical plant right across from a big Jacksonville Electric Authority place.
A large transformer can have tens of thousands of gallons of oil in it, so a big old fire is a possibility.
Doug
Pro-lifers are anti-abortion, not anti-choice. Anti-choice is vague and leaves a person wondering what “choice” is being referred to. We are anti-abortion. Clears the confusion up quite nicely.
Ahem, Bethany – on abortion message boards it’s pretty well understood that it’s the choice of continuing pregnancies or not that’s the deal.
Would you tell the victim of any crime that the person who brought serious violence against them that the person who did it is a beloved child of God?
No…but he could repent and be forgiven of his sins and become a child of God one day. He could never undo what he did to you, and his actions towards you were abominable. Believe me, I think they were horrible. Nonetheless, he is still a human being, not trash. He is just an evil human being who can change his heart one day.
Remember the Amish who lost several children to that deranged shooter? They forgave him, and said that he had “problems of the heart”… they didn’t call him trash. They wanted to help his family. Even in the midst of all their suffering, they still had love for this man and his family…even despite what he had done to them. It is quite a testimony…I don’t know if I could be that forgiving. I would like to think I could.
Anyway, the point was…human beings are human beings, no matter how evil, or how poor, or how sinful or immoral they are, etc.
Ahem, Bethany – on abortion message boards it’s pretty well understood that it’s the choice of continuing pregnancies or not that’s the deal.
Why is it a problem to call us anti-abortion? It is certainly what we stand against.
Midnite says: “And this whole “image of God” argument will not work or “convert me”. Him and me have issues and I dont like him anymore.”
Didn’t you say you don’t believe in Him? But then, not believing in God and hating God often seem to be the same thing, in spite of the contradiction.
Anyway, folks who are mad at God for whatever reason always make me think of Karol Wojtyla. He lost both of his parents and his brother at a young age. He saw his friends taken away to be murdered by Nazis. He saw his country oppressed by the Soviets. And yet, he became one of kindest and most religious men to ever exist. You know him as Pope John Paul II.
Why is it a problem to call us anti-abortion? It is certainly what we stand against.
Bethany, I have no problem with that, though for most “Pro-Life” seems to be fine. The obvious thing to say is then why not call people who are pro-choice “Pro-Choice”?
Bethany, calling us “anti-abortion” is a problem for the pro-aborts, because in doing so, they have to admit that there actually is something that is being aborted. They prefer not to say that word “abortion”, since it it far too close to reality. Instead, the arbitrary, meaningless word of “choice” is used, to keep confusion at a maximum and avoid any discussion of what is actually going on. It’s the old “obfuscate and prevaricate” strategy.
I agree, John.
I live in Birmingham, the biggest city in Alabama and there are rednecks and trailer trash living here as well.
Midnite, even way up in our neighboring country to the north they got ’em too. (Not you, John M.)
This makes me sad.
I will admit, that I couldn’t help but laugh at first, but then as I thought about it, it made me sad.
I do hope everything goes well and that she is a better mother than her sister and mother are/were. Perhaps she’ll learn from their mistakes and be a great mother.
I must agree Doug, they are all over the country.
I must go to my conpany’s X-Mas party now.
Toodles!!
The obvious thing to say is then why not call people who are pro-choice “Pro-Choice”?
the obvious answer is “choice” is too vague. It doesn’t describe what choice you’re for.
Abortion is much more simple and easy to understand.
It’s the thing separating us- it’s what you you stand for that we don’t- abortion.
“The obvious thing to say is then why not call people who are pro-choice “Pro-Choice”?”
Bethany: the obvious answer is “choice” is too vague. It doesn’t describe what choice you’re for.
Oh Pulleeaaze. This is an abortion board. The choice of abortion or not is understood.
……
Abortion is much more simple and easy to understand. It’s the thing separating us- it’s what you you stand for that we don’t- abortion.
No, being for the choice, either way, is not the same as being for one over the other. No argument that you are anti-abortion. That, too, is understood within “pro-life.” But “pro-abortion” is really just a buzzword/attempt at demonization that would logically only apply to anti-choicers, not pro-choicers.
A similar thing would be to call Pro-Lifers “women slavers” since they would have the women’s will subverted to theirs. In reality, of course you really don’t want to enslave women (very, very few of you anyway), but it could be said.
Doug
I must go to my company’s X-Mas party now.
Midnite, have a great time, and have a couple for me. Goin’ in for a blood test tomorrow so I’ve been such a good boy all week….
Sober as a judge Doug
First of all I don’t think the blogs Jill is quoting are really legitimate blogs. I am sure I could find some really nasty republican blogs and post quotes all over the place. I have heard some pretty nasty disgusting stuff come out of some republicans mouths.
Next, I am pro-choice and liberal, therefore I support her CHOICE to carry to term and keep the child. I am not advocating her to have an abortion. I am not advocating for her to place her child up for adoption. I am advocating for her to do WHAT she WANTS to do.
Oh Pulleeaaze. This is an abortion board. The choice of abortion or not is understood.
Then why correct Jill every time she says “pro-abort” when it is an understood term on an abortion blog?
No, being for the choice, either way, is not the same as being for one over the other. No argument that you are anti-abortion. That, too, is understood within “pro-life.” But “pro-abortion” is really just a buzzword/attempt at demonization that would logically only apply to anti-choicers, not pro-choicers.
But the thing that separates you and I is…wait for it…. abortion.
Thus, you are pro-abortion, I am anti-abortion.
By the way, “pro” simply means support. If you are pro-abortion, that simply means you support abortion. Is that or is that not correct? You support abortion, if the mother wants it. I do not. I am anti abortion, you are pro-abortion.
pro-a
“Oh Pulleeaaze. This is an abortion board. The choice of abortion or not is understood.”
Then why correct Jill every time she says “pro-abort” when it is an understood term on an abortion blog?
Because the question is whether to permit the legal choice or not. “Abortion” is understood to be one of the choices. If somebody is really “pro-abortion” then they are not pro-choice, but anti-choice – as with some of the comments about young Ms. Spears.
Thus, you are pro-abortion, I am anti-abortion.
No, while you are certainly against abortion, pro-choicers are for the choice, either way. Pro-choicers are against women not having the choice, just as you are against abortion.
Anyone who is truly “for abortion” per se is not pro-choice, but anti-choice. The “if the woman wants it” is where the deal is, not somebody being simply “for abortion.”
And I know that in the pre-Roe days there was some usage with respect to “favoring the legalization of abortion,” and of course there were people then who were “pro” the legalization of abortion. Yet that is not the same as being “for abortion,” per se – then and now there are people who are for women being able to legally choose though they themselves would not choose abortion.
And now we already have legal abortion. Now, if Joe Blow is “for abortion” without it being “for the choice” then ol’ Joe’s not pro-choice.
As a supporter of choice, I support her choice.
But I don’t believe that she should be held up as some sort of saintly role model for young girls just because she chose to follow through with a pregnancy.
Look at it if the shoe was on the other foot. If she had chosen abortion you all would be calling her a “typical Hollywood harlot” with no morals or else she wouldn’t be sleeping around at age 16 and cohabiting before marriage. You would be agreeing with the term “trailer trash” because only half witted trashy whores have abortions.
People aren’t making a big deal out of this simply because she didn’t choose to abort. It is because of who her older sister is (and her child rearing track record), and the fact that she is so young, that she has a tv show that caters to pre teen girls, and that she was the great white hope for the entire Spears clan.
JM,
I’m pro-guns rights even though a chose not to have a gun at this point but I support others that do.
Can I call myself pro-choice?
I think they don’t like the term pro-abortion is because there is shame that goes along with it.
THANK you, Jasper. Very good point.
I also support a person’s right to choose whether they would like to smoke or not, even though I personally would never smoke. I guess that makes me pro-choice.
I support a person’s right to choose whether they would like to drink or not…I guess that makes me pro-choice.
The difference is, I wouldn’t care if someone called me pro-cigarette or pro-alcohol, cause guess what? If I support someone choosing to use alcohol or cigarettes, I am FOR cigarettes, and I am FOR drinking.
It doesn’t bother me. But apparently the word “abortion” scares abortion supporters.
Can I call myself pro-choice?
Posted by: jasper at December 19, 2007 7:20 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gee, I have guns, yet I’ve never shot anybody.
I guess I’m pro-life.
JKeller, can you please show me all the vicious pro-lifers on this blog who are calling women anything close to “harlots”, “trailer trash” or “half witted”?
But I don’t believe that she should be held up as some sort of saintly role model for young girls just because she chose to follow through with a pregnancy.
No one said she was “saintly”. Is there some reason that someone cannot be commended for doing the right thing without others getting angry?
Gee, I have guns, yet I’ve never shot anybody.
I guess I’m pro-life.
That isn’t analogous, Laura.
And I know that in the pre-Roe days there was some usage with respect to “favoring the legalization of abortion,” and of course there were people then who were “pro” the legalization of abortion. Yet that is not the same as being “for abortion,” per se – then and now there are people who are for women being able to legally choose though they themselves would not choose abortion.
Got news for you, Doug. :-) If you support the continued legalization of abortion (which I assume you do, or you wouldn’t be here defending it), you are pro-abortion.
Pro=for
abortion=abortion
For abortion= pro-abortion
The term does not require that you support abortion in ALL situations. It only requires that you support it in ANY given situation.
Pro-life is insanely vague too. Come on. Pro-life and pro-choice are familiarly political terms representing a stance on a controversial issue. You say pro-choice, people know exactly what you mean. You say pro-life, people know exactly what you mean. It’s not ‘vague’. People know what you mean.
But, Erin, I am totally fine with anti-abortion. So if you’d rather not call me pro-life, have at it! :)
I’m just tired of people throwing fits about terminology. The way that things are referred to in a public forum and that is generally accepted is ‘pro-life’ and ‘pro-choice’. Everyone knows what those terms entail. It’s not a big issue. I call you guys pro-life because that’s what’s generally accepted. I’d like people to call me ‘pro-choice’ because that’s what’s generally accepted. Geh.
I know what you mean, Erin, and if you’ll notice..when I refer to you and others here I usually do use the term “pro-choice” just to be nice. But I just wonder why people have to get so annoyed with Jill every time she posts “pro-abort”, when it’s actually very correct terminology. I just have to defend her right to call it pro-abortion when that is exactly what it is.
It kind of goes along the same lines as anything else. You wouldn’t call a black person the ‘n’ word, would you? Or call a gay person a ‘fag’? They mean the same thing, but one has a much more negative connotation.
Erin,
I’m not sure if I ever told you this, but it took courage for you and Danny to share your personal story here with us, so thank-you. I learned some things about myself during that whole experince regarding how I should approach the pro-life cause. Even though we disagree, I still hope one day you’ll come around to being pro-life.
Of course pro-abort has a negative connotation, Erin. It tells exactly what a pro-choicer represents- abortion. Of course it is looked at negatively…that is precisely the point.
Abortion is basically a dirty word, and you’re right…very much like the word “nigger” or “faggot”.
Thank you, jasper. I think that’s the most restrained thing you’ve ever said to me. I appreciate that.
Jasper, I second that very much!
Just to clarify, it is only like those words in the way that it has a negative connotation. Calling someone pro-abortion is not an insult like calling someone a “nigger” or “fag” would be. It is simply stating the obvious, and not even in a disrespectful manner. The word itself has a negative connotation because of what the word represents.
Why do you think the word “nigger” has such a negative connotation? Because it represented hatred of black people.
Why do you think that abortion has such a negative connotation? Because it represents killing.
The problem with the term “pro-choice”, as has been explained about ten thousand times, is that it’s not only intentionally vague and intentionally misleading, but that it’s also intentionally set up to claim that the opposing side is “anti-choice”. If I call a person who supports abortion rights “pro-choice”, then it’s like I’m calling myself “anti-choice”. So I refuse to use that term.
“Pro-life” obviously has a similar problem. It implies that supporters of abortion rights are “anti-life”, which they take offense at, since they deny the biological reality that life begins at conception.
The most accurate terms, therefore, are anti-abortion and pro-abortion. As has already been said on here, the DICTIONARY DEFINITION of “pro-abortion” is “Favoring or supporting legalized abortion”. It doesn’t mean that you think all babies should be aborted. That’s absurd. Similarly people who are pro-gun don’t think that gun ownership should be mandatory.
I don’t consider ‘abortion’ a dirty word. The term ‘pro-abort’ is deliberately used by Jill, for example, as a tactic to dehumanize her opponents. Jill is a powerful conservative who in general dislikes liberals. People who adopt that kind of terminology advocate that they subscribe to not only the dislike of a concept, but a dislike of anyone connected to it. That term is used by Jill as a direct attempt to make us look like bad people. Just like ‘anti-choice’ is sometimes used by my side. It’s silly and petty.
John, EXCELLENT explanation. Thank you very much!
Erin, I think you explain it very well and very honestly from your side and I can truly understand where you are coming from. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree though because although I can understand your point of view, I just can’t agree, because abortion is so much more than a small little issue…it’s life or death in my eyes. In your eyes, it is not life or death and therefore terminology would be petty.
Anyway, I do understand where you’re coming from, but I just can’t agree. Thanks for always being so polite, respectful, and honest in your explanations.
Erin, nah, if we wanted to dehumanize y’all, we’d use terms like “pro-death”, “pro-murder”, or “Obama supporter”.
Erin,
What Jasper said. :-)
John- yeah, we’ve gotten that too. From Jill herself on a coupla occasions.
Also, yay Obama! If that means I’m dehumanizing myself, so be it. I like that man. Hasn’t been in politics long enough to become a total twit, but long enough to know what he’s doing.
“Erin, nah, if we wanted to dehumanize y’all, we’d use terms like “pro-death”, “pro-murder”, or “Obama supporter”.”
Lol…I recall being called “pro-death” when I first popped up on here.
Apparently some folks on here think “pro-gay” is a bad thing… as I was called that too in a condescending/rude manner.
:-/
I certainly hope Hillary Clinton wins the Democratic nomination. Hillary might be a power-hungry witch, but at least she doesn’t support killing born babies. I don’t think Hillary really believes half the crap she says, but Obama seems to truly believe that it’s OK to leave unwanted born babies to die, just like the hedonistic ancient Romans used to do.
*vomits*
I will seriously vote Republican (which will be VERY painful) if Hillary gets the Democratic nod.
Of course, if John McCain is the Republican candidate, I won’t have so much trouble voting Republican.
However, if it’s Huckabee or Romney, I’m writing in Stephen Colbert.
Right, “pro-gay”, there’s another term. That doesn’t mean you’re “in favor of gays”, or whatever. It means you’re in favor of arbitrarily creating new rights for the benefit of a handful of radical homosexuals.
But I really don’t care about that issue. Radical homosexuals trying to destroy marriage to their own selfish ends doesn’t concern me enough to make me a political activist. No, you need to do something like kill babies for that.
“It means you’re in favor of arbitrarily creating new rights for the benefit of a handful of radical homosexuals.”
No, I don’t do it for the “radical homosexuals”, I support it for the committed couples like my friend’s moms who have been together for over 20 years but the state of Minnesota still refuses to recognize their relationship.
I couldn’t give two fritzes for them folks in San Francisco, as I doubt they’re the ones getting married anyway.
Ohoho, John, I’m glad you’re not here. I’d have bopped you right in the nose for that.
PS, I’m pretty sure my little brother is gay. Also, I have several friends that are gay. They’re not ‘radical’.
John, marriage isn’t a religious institution. It’s a civil one. If a church doesn’t want to let gay people get married in it, THEY DON’T HAVE TO. To get a licence from the state saying that you’re married should not involve religion in any way. I’m an atheist. Should I not be able to get married?
“I’m an atheist. Should I not be able to get married?”
Of course not.
:-p
Rae- I’m honestly at the point where I will vote for Hil-dog. I cannot vote Republican- I will hate myself forever- and I can’t do third-party or write in because I know it will only serve to take votes away from a Democratic candidate. I honestly am that desperate to take back the White House.
Meh, I just really, really loathe Hillary.
I don’t mind voting Republican as long as it’s not a frothing at the mouth ultra-conservative one. I wouldn’t even vote for a frothing at the mouth ultra-liberal candidate (Hillary). I prefer my candidates moderate, sensible, practical and honest.
Hence the reason I probably will never vote for President in good conscience. :D
And I’m watching Mythbusters right now and Adam took a drink of Champagne and said, “It’s like drinking stars.” Lol…
Erin, as I said, I don’t care enough about ridiculously selfish radical homosexuals who want the nation to clap and applaud them for their wonderful sodomy to discuss it further. It’s a stupid issue, and I don’t care about it.
Ahahaha…I love Mythbusters. Did you hear that Adam’s apparent goal for the next season is to disprove creationism?
I am not quite sure what you are asking me or what point you are trying to make by your question jasper.. will you help me understand?
JM,
well, I’m pro-gun rights but I don’t choose to own a gun now.
Would it be appropriate if I called myself “pro-choice” ? Meaning, I’m pro-choice when it comes to guns. I support a pesrons right to choose (to own a gun.)
See, that’s why “pro-abortion” applies. “pro-choice” is not descriptive enough.
Do you all honestly think a teenager can make a good mother? If you don’t like abortion, don’t get one; if you don’t like homosexuality, don’t be homosexual, and just leave other people alone. Honestly, just live and let live, or just buy yourself a good fence.
sn’t it amazing that it is always the ones who accuse US of being intolerant towards people who have sex, who have such nasty things to say to those who do…. Good grief. The only reason they’ve got a problem with it is cause she’s keeping the baby. If she was having an abortion they’d be applauding her, not calling her “trailer trash”.
What a good role model she is being by taking responsibility for her actions.
Posted by: Bethany at December 19, 2007 1:33 PM
………………………………..
Unless you found out that she had already had 4 abortions. Then of course she could only be gestating for god and to get repair her sin’s. @@
“Radical homosexuals trying to destroy marriage to their own selfish ends doesn’t concern me enough to make me a political activist.”
If you were here, John, you would have been punched and beaten for that comment, and not just from me.
Rae, them folks in San Fransisco are just as normal, committed, and want to be married as any other couple.
I’m pro-guns rights even though a chose not to have a gun at this point but I support others that do.
Can I call myself pro-choice?
Jasper, as far as legal gun ownership, heck yes.
Doug
Jasper: I think they don’t like the term pro-abortion is because there is shame that goes along with it.
Nope, just because it’s incorrect. Pro-Choicers aren’t “for abortion,” per se, i.e. if nobody wanted to have one then there wouldn’t be any and pro-choicers would be happy with that.
Personally, I see abortion as messy, icky, with some costs, etc. I’m not “for” it, as anybody who is actually “pro-abortion” would be.
“Pro-abortion” would not apply to Pro-Choicers, in the first place. It’s really just trying for a buzzword or a weak debate tactic of attempting to demonize the opposition. It’s like calling Pro-Lifers “Women-Slavers.”
Doug
Bethany: The term does not require that you support abortion in ALL situations. It only requires that you support it in ANY given situation.
Nope, pro-choicers support the woman’s choice, whatever it is. You could say that some people are pro-abortion if the woman has unwanted pregnancy, but without such qualifications then it’s incorrect for pro-choicers.
John L: The problem with the term “pro-choice”, as has been explained about ten thousand times, is that it’s not only intentionally vague and intentionally misleading, but that it’s also intentionally set up to claim that the opposing side is “anti-choice”. If I call a person who supports abortion rights “pro-choice”, then it’s like I’m calling myself “anti-choice”. So I refuse to use that term.
Well, this is an abortion message board. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that abortion is the topic. Yes, you are against the legal choice of abortion, i.e. here you are “anti-choice,” or “anti-abortion,” or “pro-life,” etc.
And Pro-Choicers are for women having the legal choice.
……
“Pro-life” obviously has a similar problem. It implies that supporters of abortion rights are “anti-life”, which they take offense at, since they deny the biological reality that life begins at conception.
Wrong – straw man argument. Granted that it’s life at conception. And “Pro-Life” is understood quite well.
Doug
Rae: No, I don’t do it for the “radical homosexuals”, I support it for the committed couples like my friend’s moms who have been together for over 20 years but the state of Minnesota still refuses to recognize their relationship.
Well said, Rae. IMO knowing people like that really puts it in perspective.
Doug
“Nope, just because it’s incorrect. Pro-Choicers aren’t “for abortion,” per se, i.e. if nobody wanted to have one then there wouldn’t be any and pro-choicers would be happy with that.”
I have the same feeling about Guns, Doug.
“”Pro-abortion” would not apply to Pro-Choicers, in the first place. It’s really just trying for a buzzword or a weak debate tactic of attempting to demonize the opposition. It’s like calling Pro-Lifers “Women-Slavers.”
Doug, you said I could call myself “pro-choice” too, because I’m pro-gun rights. But I wouldn’t because “pro-choice” is too vague and not descriptive enough. why do find “pro-abortion” dehumanizing? you’re for women being able to get abortions legally, you don’t have any problem with that and you see it as a necessary right. If I felt strongly about the right to an abortion, I wouldn’t feel ashamed of being call pro-abortion.
Do you all honestly think a teenager can make a good mother? If you don’t like abortion, don’t get one; if you don’t like homosexuality, don’t be homosexual, and just leave other people alone. Honestly, just live and let live, or just buy yourself a good fence.
Of course…I had my first child when I was a teenager. I have three now and I’m 27. I think I’m doing a pretty good job of being a mother. And I know MANY other teen mothers who are doing a terrific job.
*******************************************************
Unless you found out that she had already had 4 abortions. Then of course she could only be gestating for god and to get repair her sin’s. @@
Sorry to burst your bubble, Sally, but I would still commend her for finally carrying her child to term.
And no amount of children can “repair” what she lost, if she had lost 4 children.
*************************************************************
I had written:
The term [pro-abortion] does not require that you support abortion in ALL situations. It only requires that you support it in ANY given situation.
Doug responded:
Nope, pro-choicers support the woman’s choice, whatever it is.
Wrong, Doug. It isn’t about “whatever a woman’s choice is”. The only choice in question is abortion. We’re not talking about the choice to drive a car, watch TV, eat ice cream, go to a spa, etc. We’re talking about abortion.
And the sooner you realize that, the better.
If there were people on the verge of getting abortion to be illegal, you would most certainly fight it, wouldn’t you? At the very least, you would fight it with your words, as you do here. Face it, you’re not fighting for a women’s right to choose life, because that is not the right being questioned.
The only “choice” in question is abortion. There is no “choice” of continuing a pregnancy that is in jeopardy, Doug.
The “choice” you so vehemently support is the abortion choice. You are fighting so that others can continue to choose ABORTION. You are not fighting to protect life, because women are ALREADY free to protect the life within them.
You don’t need to support all of them in order to be “pro-abortion” unless you want to make up your own definitions for words, and then I would think it’s pretty much pointless to talk with you about it.
If I felt strongly about the right to an abortion, I wouldn’t feel ashamed of being call pro-abortion.
Exactly…what is the problem? Why not shout it from the rooftops, if there is nothing wrong with it, and it’s a right to be proud of? No one should be taking offense to the word “abortion” if there is nothing wrong with it.
The fact that you continue to defend yourself against the word shows us that you see something wrong with it, deep down.
Doug, it’s not my fault you “choose” to ignore the biological reality that life begins at conception. That’s just a little problem you abortion rights people have with science.
It’s also not my fault that you “choose” to ignore the Merriam-Webster dictionary definition of “pro-abortion”.
Hmm. I think just reading Doug’s posts gets my blood close to the boiling point. More than any of the other pro-aborts on here, he seems to have such a complete disregard for facts and truth. It’s really infuriating, and I will admit it takes large amounts of self control to keep from getting angry. But then, maybe that is his real intent.
John, I frequently feel that way with Doug. Sometimes I think he does this stuff just for the opportunity to drive us crazy, and really get under our skin, just to see our reaction.
I do feel like he intentionally distorts things that he knows are otherwise, just to make us mad. I have gotten to the boiling point with him many times.
Then other times, I think…maybe he really believes the stuff he says?
If his mother was a Quaker and his father was a humanist, I suppose it is possible he really does think this way.
I honestly just don’t know. It’d be nice if we could see if he was laughing at us behind the screen or not.
Jasper: Doug, you said I could call myself “pro-choice” too, because I’m pro-gun rights.
Jasper, I said, “as far as legal gun ownership, heck yes.” Yes – on people having guns you are in general pro-choice.
……
But I wouldn’t because “pro-choice” is too vague and not descriptive enough.
You had already said it was about guns. On an abortion board the context of abortion or not/continuing a pregnancy or not is understood.
……
why do find “pro-abortion” dehumanizing?
Not dehumanizing, just wrong, and with an attempt to spin the issue. Pro-legal abortion, sure. Pro the choice of one or the other, no problem. Pro-abortion rights, indeed. But not “pro-aboriton” in an unqualified manner like that.
……
you’re for women being able to get abortions legally, you don’t have any problem with that and you see it as a necessary right.
Actually, I don’t see it as a “necessary” right. It is one I certainly think should be granted, but “necessary” sounds too external to me.
……
If I felt strongly about the right to an abortion, I wouldn’t feel ashamed of being call pro-abortion.
That’s not the same as actually being “for abortion” or wanting women to have them.
Doug
That’s not the same as actually being “for abortion” or wanting women to have them.
If I was supportive of men having the right to choose to rape women, would I be pro-rape, or simply pro-choice, Doug? Even if I didn’t support it in all situations, but only in some. Would you ever say that I supported rape?
Come ON.
It isn’t about “whatever a woman’s choice is”. The only choice in question is abortion. We’re not talking about the choice to drive a car, watch TV, eat ice cream, go to a spa, etc. We’re talking about abortion.
And the sooner you realize that, the better.
Bethany, with all due respect, that is baloney. Abortion is understood. This is about women continuing pregnancies or not, and should it be legal or illegal. That is a given. When it comes to Pro-Life and Pro-Choice, you’re kidding yourself if you think people don’t know the issue.
……
If there were people on the verge of getting abortion to be illegal, you would most certainly fight it, wouldn’t you? At the very least, you would fight it with your words, as you do here. Face it, you’re not fighting for a women’s right to choose life, because that is not the right being questioned.
True – being allowed to continue pregnancies is not the issue, and Pro-Choicers are fine with that; Pro-Choicers want women to be able to do that if they want to. Pro-Choicers want women to be free to make whatever choice they want the most.
……
The only “choice” in question is abortion. There is no “choice” of continuing a pregnancy that is in jeopardy, Doug.
Sure there is – and several people on this very board are not in favor of letting jeopardized pregnancies be ended.
……
The “choice” you so vehemently support is the abortion choice.
No, it’s both.
……
You are fighting so that others can continue to choose ABORTION. You are not fighting to protect life, because women are ALREADY free to protect the life within them.
To a point in gestation women are free to do either, and that’s a good thing and Pro-Choicers want it to stay that way.
……
You don’t need to support all of them in order to be “pro-abortion” unless you want to make up your own definitions for words, and then I would think it’s pretty much pointless to talk with you about it.
You seem determined to confuse “pro-abortion” with pro-legal abortion, pro-abortion rights, pro-women’s freedom in the matter, etc.
No one should be taking offense to the word “abortion” if there is nothing wrong with it.
Bethany, that’s not it. Being for legal abortion (no problem at all with the word) is not the same thing as being “for abortion.” I would not mind zero abortions. You’re insisting on an incorrect, unqualified usage.
You want some women’s will subverted to your own in this matter – do you think of yourself as a “Woman-Slaver”?
Bethany, with all due respect, that is baloney. Abortion is understood.
Sorry. Apparently it’s not, or you wouldn’t be defending it so much.
This is about women continuing pregnancies or not, and should it be legal or illegal.
Well, there you go. Pro-abortion means that you support legalized abortion. Do you or dont you, Doug?
That is a given. When it comes to Pro-Life and Pro-Choice, you’re kidding yourself if you think people don’t know the issue.
Then why do you care if you’re called pro-abortion? Obviously, people know the issue, so why does it matter what you’re called? Or do you think that a name can actually influence others’ perceptions of an issue?
Bethany, that’s not it. Being for legal abortion (no problem at all with the word) is not the same thing as being “for abortion.” I would not mind zero abortions. You’re insisting on an incorrect, unqualified usage.
You want some women’s will subverted to your own in this matter – do you think of yourself as a “Woman-Slaver”?
No, because it’s ridiculous to say that a woman not being allowed to kill is being enslaved.
Just as it would be ridiculous to say that preventing women from killing their newborns would be “enslaving them”.
I would not mind zero abortions.
Yeah, right.
If I was supportive of men having the right to choose to rape women, would I be pro-rape, or simply pro-choice, Doug?
Bethany, then you would be pro-legal rape. You’d be in favor of rape no longer being a crime. Not the same as saying you wanted somebody to be raped. Many people don’t like anchovies on pizza. Thay are not “pro-anchovies.” But they still allow or other people to get the leetle feeshies.
I know we can go round and round about it, but “pro-abortion” would be wanting abortions to occur, and that’s not the same as wanting other people to be free to choose them or not.
The “yes” of pro-abortion is not the same as the “yes or not” of pro-choice.
Bethany, then you would be pro-legal rape. You’d be in favor of rape no longer being a crime. Not the same as saying you wanted somebody to be raped.
Oh my goodness, Doug. Are you actually serious? If I supported rape in ANY situation, how could I NOT be saying I wanted women to be raped? How ridiculous can you be? Good grief.
Many people don’t like anchovies on pizza. Thay are not “pro-anchovies.” But they still allow or other people to get the leetle feeshies.
how can you compare RAPE to ANCHOVIES?
I know we can go round and round about it, but “pro-abortion” would be wanting abortions to occur, and that’s not the same as wanting other people to be free to choose them or not.
You DO want them to occur, Doug. If you didn’t, you would be anti-abortion.
John L: Doug, it’s not my fault you “choose” to ignore the biological reality that life begins at conception. That’s just a little problem you abortion rights people have with science.
Baloney, John. That is simply a lie from you. Evidently you either consciously or subconsciously know how weak your position is, and thus you resort to such silliness.
Surely you can understand “Granted that it’s life at conception.” You are better than straw men.
……
It’s also not my fault that you “choose” to ignore the Merriam-Webster dictionary definition of “pro-abortion”.
It comes from the time when we did not (in general) have legal abortion. Being for legal abortion was the issue then, as opposed to being for the choice, either way, now.
Again, the “yes” of pro-abortion is not the same as the “yes or no” of pro-choice.
If you say, “pro-legal abortion,” then you would be correct.
……
Hmm. I think just reading Doug’s posts gets my blood close to the boiling point. More than any of the other pro-aborts on here, he seems to have such a complete disregard for facts and truth. It’s really infuriating, and I will admit it takes large amounts of self control to keep from getting angry. But then, maybe that is his real intent.
Nope – you make up false stuff, and then pretend that others “should” follow it. Do you think people should not note your straw men arguments?
Yes, there is life at conception.
Yes, there is life at conception.
Doug, we know that. But you deny that it’s “human life” in the same context that you and I are human life. And that is what John is saying.
No straw man there.
“Bethany, then you would be pro-legal rape. You’d be in favor of rape no longer being a crime. Not the same as saying you wanted somebody to be raped.”
Oh my goodness, Doug. Are you actually serious? If I supported rape in ANY situation, how could I NOT be saying I wanted women to be raped? How ridiculous can you be? Good grief.
You can say it because it is not the same thing.
If you want rape to not be a criminal act, that is not the same thing as “supporting rape” in a vacuum, same as for abortion or anchovies.
I don’t want it to be a crime for people to drive 5 MPH under the speed limit, but I sure as heck don’t “support” it. Now talk about “good grief…”
Doug
“Bethany, with all due respect, that is baloney. Abortion is understood.”
Sorry. Apparently it’s not, or you wouldn’t be defending it so much.
Nonsense. On abortion boards, abortion or not, the choice of continuing pregnancies or not, is understood.
……
“This is about women continuing pregnancies or not, and should it be legal or illegal.”
Well, there you go. Pro-abortion means that you support legalized abortion. Do you or dont you, Doug?
No, “pro-abortion” means being for it in an unqualified manner. “Pro-legal abortion” would have been a better description prior to 1973, and now that we already have legal abortion it’s no longer a question that way. There truly are people who are “against abortion” in that they don’t like it, don’t like the idea of it, wouldn’t choose it themselves – in no way is it sensible to call them “pro-abortion.” Yet – they still are for it being a legal choice for others, hence pro-choice.
……
“That is a given. When it comes to Pro-Life and Pro-Choice, you’re kidding yourself if you think people don’t know the issue.”
Then why do you care if you’re called pro-abortion? Obviously, people know the issue, so why does it matter what you’re called? Or do you think that a name can actually influence others’ perceptions of an issue?
Do you care if you’re called a Fascist or a Woman-Slaver?
I like the cartoon, but you are determined to pretend that “yes” is the same as “yes or not,” and that is not true.
You can say it because it is not the same thing.
If you want rape to not be a criminal act, that is not the same thing as “supporting rape” in a vacuum, same as for abortion or anchovies.
I don’t want it to be a crime for people to drive 5 MPH under the speed limit, but I sure as heck don’t “support” it. Now talk about “good grief…”
It is the same thing because of what it accomplishes!! And for goodness sake please stop saying “in a vacuum”. I don’t even know what that means. I just know that if I supported rape in any situation, I would be pro-rape, because obviously, if rape were legal, women would be raped without consequences to the men who raped them! This is what supporting these kind of “choices” leads to.
Are you really that naive to think that if you support a “choice” to rape, you are not supporting rape itself?
“Many people don’t like anchovies on pizza. Thay are not “pro-anchovies.” But they still allow or other people to get the leetle feeshies.”
how can you compare RAPE to ANCHOVIES?
Well, Bethany, you brought up the choice of rape, and I mentioned anchovies. They are both choices. Of course they are different in many ways, but the comparison can be made.
……
“I know we can go round and round about it, but “pro-abortion” would be wanting abortions to occur, and that’s not the same as wanting other people to be free to choose them or not.”
You DO want them to occur, Doug. If you didn’t, you would be anti-abortion.
That’s where you’re wrong, B – I really don’t “want” them to occur. By themselves, I don’t “like” abortions. (Yuck.) I’d be fine if nobody wanted abortions. On their own, I see abortions as a negative, presenting some risks and costs. I’m not “for” them in an unqualified manner.
Nonsense. On abortion boards, abortion or not, the choice of continuing pregnancies or not, is understood.
Then there need be no argument over the terminology of pro-abort, because it is understood.
No, “pro-abortion” means being for it in an unqualified manner.
Only in the Dictionary of Doug.
“Pro-legal abortion” would have been a better description prior to 1973, and now that we already have legal abortion it’s no longer a question that way.
BUT YOU STILL SUPPORT CONTINUED LEGALIZED ABORTION, THEREFORE THE DEFINITION STILL FITS.
Do you care if you’re called a Fascist or a Woman-Slaver?
I’m called much worse all the time, and yet I don’t complain.
I like the cartoon, but you are determined to pretend that “yes” is the same as “yes or not,” and that is not true.
I’m sure women would be very comforted if the law only supported SOME rape and not ALL rapes.
I’m sure they would agree with your whole philosophy of “I’m just for the “choice”. Yes, Doug, I’m sure they’d all agree with you as they were being raped as a result of the law’s decision to let men have the “choice” to rape them-
OR NOT!.
“Yes, there is life at conception.”
Bethany: Doug, we know that. But you deny that it’s “human life” in the same context that you and I are human life. And that is what John is saying.
No straw man there.
Nope – that is not what John said. If he says that pro-choicers don’t think that the right-to-life is attributed to the unborn as it is to the born, then I will agree with him.
Saying that I deny that there is life at conception, or that I ignore the biological reality that life begins at conception (as he means life) is baloney.
Well, Bethany, you brought up the choice of rape, and I mentioned anchovies. They are both choices. Of course they are different in many ways, but the comparison can be made.
……
Anchovies are not a choice which results in the victimization of another human being, Doug!
They are not comparable.
That would be like me comparing Hitler to an ice cream cone.
Doug, do you really think that every pro-choicer has uniform beliefs with you? Do you really believe that no other pro-choicer believes that life doesn’t begin at conception?
Take a look see at Planned Parenthood’s website and see when THEY say life begins, just for a start.
Then we’ll move onto others…
Doug, do you really think that every pro-choicer has uniform beliefs with you?
Of course not – not everybody is for the choice in the same situations, just as not everybody is going to be against abortion in the same situations.
……
Do you really believe that no other pro-choicer believes that life doesn’t begin at conception?
Depends on what is meant. If we are talking about a living, human organism, then I think it’s just a fact.
……
Take a look see at Planned Parenthood’s website and see when THEY say life begins, just for a start.
Then we’ll move onto others…
Again, depends on what is meant. The sperm and egg, after all, are “alive,” though they are not “a life” in the way that is present after conception, and that’s not the same as the case late in gestation, or after birth, etc.
“Do you care if you’re called a Fascist or a Woman-Slaver?”
I’m called much worse all the time, and yet I don’t complain.
Dang…. Well, I still don’t think it’s correct or even a half-decent debate tactic to pretend that “yes” is no different from “yes or no.”
……
I’m sure women would be very comforted if the law only supported SOME rape and not ALL rapes.
I’m sure they would agree with your whole philosophy of “I’m just for the “choice”. Yes, Doug, I’m sure they’d all agree with you as they were being raped as a result of the law’s decision to let men have the “choice” to rape them- OR NOT!.
You didn’t mention anything about how the women would feel. That’s not the argument. I don’t want the law to treat them that way and I also don’t want the law to be against them having the choice of continuing pregnancies or not.
Depends on what is meant. If we are talking about a living, human organism, then I think it’s just a fact.
Of course it is, but not every pro-choicer agrees with it… Which is why John said, “That’s just a little problem you abortion rights people have with science.”
You, as a collective whole.
Dang…. Well, I still don’t think it’s correct or even a half-decent debate tactic to pretend that “yes” is no different from “yes or no.”
Read my “rape” posts again. Supporting legalized abortion is the same as supporting abortion, Doug.
You didn’t mention anything about how the women would feel. That’s not the argument. I don’t want the law to treat them that way and I also don’t want the law to be against them having the choice of continuing pregnancies or not.
ARRRGGGG Doug, are you intentionally missing my point?
You didn’t mention anything about how the women would feel. That’s not the argument.
I didn’t say it was! I was pointing out how ridiculous it is for you to say that supporting legalized rape doesn’t support rape. Darn it!
I don’t want the law to treat them that way and I also don’t want the law to be against them having the choice of continuing pregnancies or not.
What in the world does this have to do with you, Doug? How did this turn around to be about your point of view on rape? I am asking you, I already know you’re against rape, as am I…my question is, what is going to happen if the law supports a man’s “CHOICE” to rape -OR NOT. WOMEN WILL BE RAPED. Obviously the SUPPORT of CHOICE leads RAPES to OCCUR (without consequence). Simply because men will always “want” to rape. Just as women will always ‘want’ abortions. Saying you don’t support abortions if no women want abortions is just as ridiculous as it would be for me to say I don’t support rape if no men want to rape, but as long as men want to rape, they should be able to rape.
Would the law be supporting rape, or would it be not supporting rape, if rape were legalized? It’s a simple question with a very simple answer.
Excellent points Bethany.
I still believe it all comes down to shame. They will not admit this though. That’s why the lie “pro-choice” was invented, to make it seem empowering to women.
“Depends on what is meant. If we are talking about a living, human organism, then I think it’s just a fact.”
Of course it is, but not every pro-choicer agrees with it… Which is why John said, “That’s just a little problem you abortion rights people have with science.”
You, as a collective whole.
Bethany, I don’t think the science is really in question. There are different perceptions and definitions for “a life” and “human being,” and people will disagree about them.
If somebody says that the zygote is not human, not alive, not an organism, then I would say they are wrong, but most likely they impute more into the terms than you do.
Enigma, for example, does a good job of explaining how she sees it.
Bethany: Read my “rape” posts again. Supporting legalized abortion is the same as supporting abortion, Doug.
It can also be said that rape is against a woman’s will, as is forcing her to end or continue a pregnancy when she does not want to.
I won’t argue forever about this (I promise) but the “yes” of pro-abortion is not the same as the “yes or no”of pro-choice.
……
“I like the cartoon, but you are determined to pretend that “yes” is the same as “yes or not,” and that is not true.”
I’m sure women would be very comforted if the law only supported SOME rape and not ALL rapes.
I’m sure they would agree with your whole philosophy of “I’m just for the “choice”. Yes, Doug, I’m sure they’d all agree with you as they were being raped as a result of the law’s decision to let men have the “choice” to rape them- OR NOT!.
“You didn’t mention anything about how the women would feel. That’s not the argument. I don’t want the law to treat them that way and I also don’t want the law to be against them having the choice of continuing pregnancies or not.”
ARRRGGGG Doug, are you intentionally missing my point?
Careful, B, with those first four capitalized letters you’ll have yllas calling you a pirate.
I realize that it would not be any comfort if some rape was allowed. And of course women wouldn’t agree with others being for the choice of it.
But the unqualified “pro-abortion” is not the same as being for legal abortion, being for the choice, either way, etc.
Jasper: I still believe it all comes down to shame. They will not admit this though. That’s why the lie “pro-choice” was invented, to make it seem empowering to women.
Jasper, there’s no “shame” in it. I am for abortion being legal to a point in gestation. I am for women keeping the freedom they have in the matter.
If somebody is for something, how in the world can they really be “ashamed” of it? If they were, then they would no longer be for it.
There is a difference between wanting a thing to be a legal choice, and wanting that thing, period.
Doug
“I would not mind zero abortions.”
Bethany: Yeah, right.
Then you are really just misrepresenting my position. I truly do not “like” abortion for its own sake.
Well, I disagree. And there’s really nothing that’s going to make either of us agree… so I guess there’s really not much more to say on the subject.
You posted at the same time as me so I want to clarify. I disagree that pro-abortion does not mean supportive of abortion.
Whether you like abortion or not I don’t know. I do know that you don’t hate it, or you wouldn’t support a woman getting one.
Then you are really just misrepresenting my position. I truly do not “like” abortion for its own sake.
And why not? Is it really something that you should not be proud of? This right, this freedom, this beautiful thing that you have allowed women to choose to do?
I will admit it takes large amounts of self control to keep from getting angry. But then, maybe that is his real intent.
John L, no, really not. I know that I don’t make the same assumptions you do nor do I believe all that you do (and vice-versa) but I’m not just trying to yank your chain.
……
Bethany: John, I frequently feel that way with Doug. Sometimes I think he does this stuff just for the opportunity to drive us crazy, and really get under our skin, just to see our reaction.
Jills’ blog has the best Pro-Life arguers I’ve seen. Not trying to drive you crazy.
……
I do feel like he intentionally distorts things that he knows are otherwise, just to make us mad. I have gotten to the boiling point with him many times. Then other times, I think…maybe he really believes the stuff he says?
I do, B, I’m not dissembling. If you think I am distorting something specifically, we can talk about it. On the “pro-abortion,” deal, I see it coming down to yes versus yes/no – different deals.
I don’t think it’s that I “know otherwise,” it’s that I know that some things which are true for one person won’t be true for another.
……
If his mother was a Quaker and his father was a humanist, I suppose it is possible he really does think this way.
My mother wears Army boots and my dad won the national nose-picking contest.
……
I honestly just don’t know. It’d be nice if we could see if he was laughing at us behind the screen or not.
Not laughing, like that – what would be the point? The stuff I laugh at is like AB Laura’s saying that the black hearts on the shirts of some pro-choicers was appropriate – I think people on both sides can see the humor there. And Jill’s “brouhoho,” etc. Humor is one thing almost all of us share.
In my company’s office there was a whole bunch of Christmas stuff that customers sent in – truffles, other chocolates, more chocolates, nuts, toffee, candy, popcorn. I ate like six things now I feel a bit queasy.
Merry Christmas,
Doug
If somebody is for something, how in the world can they really be “ashamed” of it? If they were, then they would no longer be for it.
I truly do not “like” abortion for its own sake.
You say you don’t like abortion, yet you support it. Yet you say if you didn’t like abortion (were ashamed of it), you would no longer be for it. It does not make sense.
My mother wears Army boots and my dad won the national nose-picking contest.
Not laughing, like that – what would be the point?
I don’t know, Doug. I guess just I feel like you are thinking it is hilarious how long we continue to take the bait, or thinking that we have amusing answers to your comments, or something like that.
If you’re sincere, that’s nice. I’d rather think you were sincere than intentionally trying to cause frustration. But it’s still hard when it seems like you do try to act as though you don’t understand what we’re saying when we explain it so clearly. I dont know how much clearer we could possibly be. I really don’t.
In my company’s office there was a whole bunch of Christmas stuff that customers sent in – truffles, other chocolates, more chocolates, nuts, toffee, candy, popcorn. I ate like six things now I feel a bit queasy.
I’m planning on making some Christmas fudge today that you’re welcome to try next! ;-)
Then why do you care if you’re called pro-abortion?
******
If I was ‘pro abortion’ then Id think women SHOULD have abortions and abortion was the best option for any pregnant woman. Im pro choice. I support a womans right to make the choice thats best for her and that may be abortion or gestation. I dont care what she chooses to do if she is happy with her decision. The term ‘pro abortion’ and ‘pro abort’ are used specifically to attempt to offend and insult.
“Then you are really just misrepresenting my position. I truly do not “like” abortion for its own sake.”
Bethany: And why not? Is it really something that you should not be proud of? This right, this freedom, this beautiful thing that you have allowed women to choose to do?
It’s not a matter of “pride,” it’s that – as I’ve said – abortion is “yucky” to me, like many surgical things, and it has some costs and risks. On its own – I’d rather have pregnancies be prevented and avoid it.
When an unwanted pregnancy is fact, then it’s too late for prevention, and then I’d rather have women be free, as they are, rather than necessarily have every single pregnancy continue.
TexasRed is right – if somebody was actually “pro-abortion” then they would feel that abortion “should be” rather than leaving it up to the pregnant women themselves. I’m not saying that all pregnancies should be aborted – far from it.
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You say you don’t like abortion, yet you support it. Yet you say if you didn’t like abortion (were ashamed of it), you would no longer be for it. It does not make sense.
Yes – if a person is truly ashamed of a thing, then how could they be for it?
I support abortion rights because I see it as better that a woman can end an unwanted pregnancy if she wants to, rather than her being forced to continue it. That does not mean that I like abortion on its own, by itself, in a vacuum, etc.
If anything I’d say it’s too bad that women have abortions – it would be better to prevent the pregnancy or to want the pregnancy, but that’s not always reality.
……
But it’s still hard when it seems like you do try to act as though you don’t understand what we’re saying when we explain it so clearly. I dont know how much clearer we could possibly be. I really don’t.
I do understand. The point is that what you accept is not accepted by everybody.
Doug
looks like the father to be might be charged and go to jail after all.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/showbiz/showbiznews.html?in_article_id=503650&in_page_id=1773
As a father of a 16 year old girl, I’m fine with that.
Time to put some oil on the water – wia tfor the match:
The problem with many of the terms is that they are either too narrow or too broad to reflect the nuances of many positions.
Pro-life: often leads to charges of hypocracy and self-contradiction when coupled with a defense of capital punishment (often seen in the conservative right.)
Anti-choice – perhaps more accurate because it seems to better reflect the full spectrum of the viewpoint – not only anti-abortion choice, but anti-birth control (unless it’s the specific form condoned by religious leaders), anti-sexual orientation manifestation, anti-choice of sexual activity, etc.
Pro-abortion: re-read Doug’s posts – he did a good job. The addition needed though is that many who would fall under this term (not in Bethany’s and John or Jasper’s definition, but in the pro-legal sense) are also pro choice for end of life issues. Thus the term is far too narrow in addition to being misleading.
Thus pro-choice is a more encompassing and generally better represents the majority of those who hold this position. Pro-choice in end of life issues, in gestational issues, in sexula issues, etc. Perhaps pro-personal privacy would be another possible term.
Excellent comments, Phylosopher. Only thing I’d say about “Pro-Choice” is that on an abortion board it’s already narrowed down, so the end of life issues are really a separate deal.
I have no problem with people being against abortion and for the death penalty. Entirely understandable to me – just because one feels a certain way about the unborn doesn’t mean they have to think that some criminals should not be executed.
Doug