Justice for moderator Mary Kay (MK)
A week or so ago I posted as quote of the day this comment by Des Plaines, IL, Police Chief James Prandini, taken from the Chicago Tribune, on the firing of Officer Dick Lalowski for harrassing pro-life sidewalk counselors at an abortion mill:
“This was an important case for us. It sets the tone for our conduct. We can’t have officers treat people like this.”
I didn’t put 2 and 2 together until later that our own moderator Mary Kay (MK) was one of the plaintiffs in the lawsuit that drew the termination! She told me about the lawsuit awhile back, but pro-lifers around the country are so busy suing police and cities for First Amendment violations, I at first considered this “just” another victory – because we do inevitably win.
So, congrats, MK!
Here is the story in brief, from the Daily Herald….
Officer Dick V. Lalowski was stripped of his job after 11 years on the force for prodding a protester in the shoulder with his index fingers and calling her a “fat (expletive) cow” during a protest outside a Des Plaines women’s health clinic….
Lalowski had claimed he was exercising his freedom of speech. He had stopped during his shift at the clinic to tell the protesters not to block the entrance, threatening arrest.
After his shift ended, Lalowski returned in plainclothes to confront the female protesters.
Lalowski had said he felt a 6-foot-tall photo of an aborted fetus that the protesters held was too graphic and could offend a woman who had just had a miscarriage. He also admitted that he accused a protester of gluttony because she was overweight.
During the hearings, 911 tapes showed that a police officer and dispatcher had downplayed the incident as Lalowski challenging the women about their abortion views. The officer and dispatcher have since been disciplined, Prandini said.
It was MK who made the 911 calls. You can read MK’s account of the day below. You can also read the account from a legal perspective at Thomas More Society’s website, the pro-life law firm that filed the lawsuit.
MK’s account of the day….
When I arrived that morning the first thing Paula told me was that a police officer had been there and threatened to arrest us all if we stepped off the curb, or tried to give any of our “gift basket” to clients entering the abortion clinic.
An hour later he was back, this time out of uniform, and this time yelling at her sister who was at the other end of the abortion clinic. Paula asked me to go down and make sure it was the same guy, and see what he wanted. I had never seen him, so for the first 15 minutes, I wasn’t even sure he was a cop.
When I got there, he was screaming at Paula’s sister, a quiet, gentle, mousy woman, telling her she was fat and threatening to arrest her. When he saw me, he switched prey. He came so close to me our noses were touching. He was screaming that I hated men, was a terrorist and that he was going to arrest me also. I repeatedly asked him to back away. He wanted to know why. I told him he was frightening me and making me very uncomfortable. He didn’t budge.
I turned and went to the unmarked, moonlighting police officer parked halfway between Paula and her sister. He never got out of the car. Wasn’t even facing the scene. He glanced in his rearview and side mirrors but that was the extent of his “investigation”. Except for while he was talking to me, his windows were rolled up so he couldn’t even hear what was taking place.
I informed him that a call was putting thru to 911 and it was in his best interest as a representative of the Des Plaines Police Dept. to nip this now, before 911 got involved. At this point Lalowski walked up to the other side of the car and I went and spoke with Paula’s sister. She was very shaken up.
Turns out no less than three calls were put through to 911. No one responded.
By now Lalowski had switched victims yet again and was harassing Paula again. The moonlighting officer never got out of his car.
An hour later squad cars pulled up from everywhere. Turns out Lalowski has a history of this behavior. The moonlighting officer apologized profusely to us, and admitted he was nervous. He’d heard all the rumors about the “violence” pro- lifers are infamous for and was hesitant to get involved.
Paula was stuck with him for an hour before the police arrived. She handled it beautifully. She played along with him, hoping to appease him. Every time I came near him he got riled up again so I kept my distance. But I watched closely.
I have been in the pro life movement for more than 25 years. Had a lot of things happen in that time. Nasty notes left on my car, food thrown at me, the F-word screamed at me so many times I couldn’t count them, people in my face screaming… even had a gun pointed at us by a guy in a car driving by… but honestly, I have never been as frightened as I was that day. It was like dealing with an abusive drunk, knowing that the wrong word could get you beaten or killed. It was like walking a tightrope. This guy was a second away from a total explosion, and you just knew someone was going to get hurt. God bless Paula. She managed to soothe the savage beast until help arrived.
Regardless of how you feel about the prolife/prochoice issue, the police have an obligation to protect the public. And they were woefully remiss in their duties that day. In their defense, they have always treated us with the utmost respect. Their job is not an easy one, and I thank them for their commitment. Just as I hate carrying around the fallout of the bad actions of a few prolifers, I would not want to paint the entire police department in a bad light. A few bad Catholics do not negate the Church as a whole, a few bad pro-choicers do not represent all pro-choicers and one bad police officer should not discredit an entire department. I’m grateful that they didn’t sweep this under the rug, instead dealing with it head on and eliminating one undesirable employee, thus boosting the credibility of the whole department.
I wish Officer Lalowski the best and hope he finds peace. I’m just grateful that he no longer carries a gun…



Woooooooooooooooot! Go MK!
This man needed to be fired.
I think many women and men in the police force are dealing with aftermath of abortion themselves- which could explain officer Lalowski’s behavior.
It is certainly no excuse. But I think we have have to keep in mind that whenever we are attacked for our pro-life stand is because our attacker carries a huge burden on their shoulders.
We have a choice to attack back or patiently endure. Attacking back we close the door to any future dialogs. Being patient, we may just keep that door opened.
Just my two cents.
Awesome!
Lalowski got what he deserved.
I tend to agree with Vlad. No person in their right mind would behave in this manner… unless they are carrying around some type of hurt.
I’ve done sidewalk counselling here in Canada and also much quiet protesting and usually the vehemently vociferous pro-aborts are themselves victims of abortion.
Wow,
How many times have I been called a baby-killer on this board?
Maybe I should sue…
Hmmmm…..can we do this in Aurora?
Laura — You give as good as you get and you know it.
But to make you feel better, I’m firing up the world’s smallest violin on your behalf.
Woo hoo, Go MK!!
Now if only I could get justice in my organic chem class….I missed getting an A- in the class by ONE QUESTION today on the exam. You haven’t the foggiest clue how disappointed I am. Lol.
wow MK, good for you.
“I think many women and men in the police force are dealing with aftermath of abortion themselves- which could explain officer Lalowski’s behavior.”
yes Vlad. True.
MK, I admire your strength and commitment. Also, you are one pretty lady!
Vlad, thank you for those wise words.
Lyssie-
Oh I know.
*Commiserates with PIP*
Ah, well, I’m pretty satisfied….I suppose. I definitely could have done more work for the class, but I learned a lot and had a great teacher. It’s just….ONE FRIGGIN’ QUESTION. Not fair. Damn B+s!!!!!!!
But Lyssie! It’s over now! *throws confetti* Time for good food, cookies, family time, and relaxation!
At least for a couple weeks ;-)
Oh, I’m not done until Friday. I took the chem exam a few hours ago and was able to check the posted answers online….with horror I realized that i missed only ONE question too many. *sadness* lol
Ahhh…no fun. The rest of my family is still all working and schooling and such. I sit around bored all day until they get home. It is no fun at all!
Well if she was fat she was guilty of gluttony and it’s not like she doesn’t know she’s fat so it shouldn’t matter what he says to her about it.
Hahahaha…Jess, I just almost spit my soda out. That was great.
Lalowski is afraid a picture of an aborted fetus fetus could offend a woman who miscarried, assuming there was any such woman around, but has no qualms about accusing an obese woman of gluttony. A real bastion of sensitivity, that one.
“Well if she was fat she was guilty of gluttony and it’s not like she doesn’t know she’s fat so it shouldn’t matter what he says to her about it.”
yeah, real hilarious *rolls eyes*
Wherever you are law enforcement student Midnite, let this story be a lesson to you about free will, abuse of free will, and emotionalism.
This officer was a bully, and bullies in law enforcement are not wanted or needed.
Cheers to the chief.
Jess,
I agree. I knew a young woman who lost her legs due to her drunkeness and well, stupidity. Its not like this woman doesn’t know how she lost her legs, so I suppose it doesn’t matter that anyone says to her about it, right?
I think many women and men in the police force are dealing with aftermath of abortion themselves-which could explain officer Lalowski’s behavior.
Vlad, could you please cite a source for this?
I know many police officers, and not one of them has had an abortion nor has their spouse. They have dealt with the death of a collegue due to an abortion bombing. And I must say, that doesnt sit well with them.
Well if she was fat she was guilty of gluttony and it’s not like she doesn’t know she’s fat so it shouldn’t matter what he says to her about it.
So a police officer can call her a “fat *&^%^&# cow” and this is acceptable?
Professionals can name-call and terrorize people as long as the names they call are true?
Jess,
I also know people who are ugly, smelly, or slutty- I don’t harass them.
Jess,
Once more, what if he replaced “fat” with “retarded” and called someone retarded that actually suffers from mental retardation and is aware of it. Is calling that person, “^%$&*(# retarded” just fine?
P.S. Aren’t you sweet?
Midnite,
My brother is a former police officer so I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone who harms a police officer in any way, shape or form.
The “abortion” bomber also bombed and killed people at the Olympic park(?) and also bombed a gay bar. This is obviously a lunatic who acts for his own deranged reasons, such as the unibomber. I’m glad they’ve both been caught and permanently put away.
The incredibly poor judgement shown by this officer is regrettable, and his termination was justified. However, MK’s speculation on the reason for the officer’s poor impulse control is laughably absurd. Lots of pro-choicers are angered by the offensive tactics employed by antis and their attempts to impede women from access to health care to which they are legally entitled, but we respond appropriately, for instance by escorting, and getting laws passed, such as FACE (Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act).
Any comments on the physiques of protesters and escorts alike are childish and best left unsaid.
Mary:
You are correct. Rudolph bombed the B’ham clinic, the Olympic park and a gay bar some where (I cant remember the state). Yes, he is nuttier than a Christmas fruit cake, but he belongs and is still active (while in a super max prison)in the Army of God; which is a pro-life group to the extreme.
You are correct. Rudolph bombed the B’ham clinic, the Olympic park and a gay bar some where (I cant remember the state). Yes, he is nuttier than a Christmas fruit cake, but he belongs and is still active (while in a super max prison)in the Army of God; which is a pro-life group to the extreme.
Posted by: midnite678 at December 17, 2007 4:27 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rev. Spitz – the guy who publishes Rudolph’s manifestos taunting his victim’s families – has posted on this very board. He’s tight with that whole “Life Dynamics/Mark Crutcher” group and posts on their board as well.
I’d have major words with this Rev.
He is the definition of smut.
@midnite678
I can’t cite the source because that was written by me. In my limited experience I find that abortion is very private subject and we are the masters to put up a good mask. I am not saying that your friends in the police force are necessarily had abortions. But if they are it is also possible they are not ready to talk to you about it.
I would just say it is always a good idea to keep an open mind. We never know whom and how God will use.
I know thought that in the time of crises some men tend to express themselves through being violent- I would bet that all the men involved in shooting abortionist or bombing clinics may have been post abortive men.
Midnite,
So what would we expect from Rudolph? Of course he will maintain ties to lunatics like himself. The Army of God no more represents pro-lifers than the KKK represents you and me as white Americans.
Vlad;
In my limited experience
That statement, sums up your assumption, that many women and men in the police force are dealing with aftermath of abortion themselves-which could explain officer Lalowski’s behavior. Just b/c you some some (dont know how many) people that happen to be police officers and have personally dealt with an abortion, does not mean that all police officers have. It is a big jump to automatically assume what you did.
I would just say it is always a good idea to keep an open mind. We never know whom and how God will use.
I promise, I always keep an open to mind, but I dont believe in God, so that part of your argument, does not apply to me.
I am not saying that your friends in the police force are necessarily had abortions. But if they are it is also possible they are not ready to talk to you about it.
People talk to me about everything. I just have one of those personalities. Strangers will walk up to me on the street and tell me their life story, I promise you. It’s wild. I’ve got some great stories if you’re ever interested.
Vlad, 4:44PM,
I’m uncomfortable with that comment about men in crisis expressing themselves by violence, or responding to an abortion experience by bombing and shooting. This sounds too much like the “abuse excuse” which has turned cold blooded killers into objects of sympathy.
Rudolph was a lunatic, I don’t care what his “reason” was. The unibomber was also a lunatic. Nothing “explains” their actions.
Very true Mary, very true.
Although I have been accused on many occasions (not on here) for either (1)being racist or (2)belonging to the KKK b/ce I am white and live in Alabama; the pure stupidity of people make me laugh sometimes…
———————————
And I also agree with the “abuse excuse” being pure $h*t.
Mary,
I am not making excuses for any of these people. However if abortion makes some feel suicidal, it may make them feel enraged as well.
All I am saying we can get into their minds to know for sure what guided their action. As for I would rather err on the side of mercy and forgiveness.
Midnite:”I know many police officers, and not one of them has had an abortion nor has their spouse.”
how do you know midnite? you don’t know that.
Rev. Spitz: a good man
Jasper:
Considering my parents profession, I know lots of police officers. Enough said.
And as for you thinking Rev. Spitz is a good man, just goes to show what kind of person you are. Quit trying to anger me.
Midnite,
I’ve had the same experience of people assuming I am racist. Quite ironic when one considers I spent my childhood in a neighborhood and school with more racial, ethnic, and religious diversity than any so-called “experts” in multiculturalism will ever see in a lifetime.
Like at work, I(the woman) am just doing my job. The men, why aren’t they just wonderful!
I agree.
Tell me Mary. Do you thing Rev. Spitz is a good man like Jasper says he is? Do you know why he would say such a thing?
Jasper,
Please. There are other people far more worthy of admiration. May I suggest pro-life leaders such as Dr. Mildred Jefferson, the first black woman to graduate from Harvard Medical School and former president of the National Right To Life Committee. I am proud to be represented by her.
Oh, I didn’t realize Rev. Spitz published Eric R. manifesto. I know him from commenting on here an he seemed like a good guy.
Sorry about that Midnite
Midnite,
I think my post to Jasper answers part of your question. Jasper will have to speak for himself otherwise.
hmmmmm
@midnite678
No offense but I think you trying to read way too much in between the lines.
My view is this. If we can not offer forgiveness to all involved we have failed.
No do not presume that every one had an abortion. The reality is that there is not a family out there that has not been touched by abortion in one way or another. That is the reality.
We can always send every one to hell. Forgive and offer mercy is Divine, and we should strive to raise our eyes to the Divine.
Anyway, it was not my intention to ruffle anyone’s feathers here. I will just stick to myself from now on. Although it is hard not to react to what Jill writes here. A very thought provoking blog. However if we are here to only condemn and decry the “guilty” we have failed already. Good luck to all!
I’m honestly terrified of anyone who would think Rev. Spitz is a “good man.”
Thanks for bringing up Dr. Jefferson, Mary. A truly fascinating person that not enough people know much about!
Vlad,
Please don’t stop commenting here. I come here almost every day searching for more like me: pro-life, but peaceful. It seems there is so much hatred and intolerance in the PL community, I sometimes feel the need to distance myself from it by not standing up and sharing my beliefs with others.
While I don’t necessarily agree with your assumption that all these individuals act the way they do because they are victims of abortions, I share with you your views of forgiveness and peace.
It’s pretty rare for me to read comments on this blog and nod my head in agreement, but I do so most often with yours. Please continue to share!
Sam
Mary and Samantha, Dr.Mildred Jefferson is now the president of MA Citizens For Life. We are lucky to have her.
It’s funny how some pro-lifers are so weak in the nees, they quickly condemn pro-lifers like Rev. Spitz, but give pro-aborts chance after chance after chance. I feel a need to distance myself from these “pro-life ” phonies.
Vlad,
I join Samantha in asking that you continue posting here. So what if you ruffle feathers! I’ve ruffled more than a few. This would be one very dull blog otherwise!
Jacqueline,
What have you been up to? I have missed you on here!!!
Lyssie-
Guess what? I have received a 94%..that’s right an A in my biology class…I am SO excited..my other grades aren’t in yet..but I am expecting another A and B..so hang in there..it will be over soon!
Hi Mary,
my comment was directed at samathas comment about “distancing herself”
I have nothing against what you guys were saying, but if were gonna give abortionists (who kill thousands) and pro-aborts slack, we ought to give Rev. Spitz some slack.
Vlad, I join Mary and Samantha in asking you to continue posting. I think all of us have ruffled a few feathers at one time or another.
Jasper,
Sorry you think I’m a weak “need” phony, but I refuse to condone violence of any sort.
Sam
Jasper,
I look at it this way. Gandhi and Dr. ML King were men of peace who struggled against overwhelming injustice and cruelty. They never condoned violence yet their devotion to the cause of justice was no less and I would never consider either man weak-kneed.
They didn’t eliminate injustice, they took a firm peaceful stand against it and truly made a difference.
WOOO HOOO ELIZABETH!! That kicks some major keister. I guess I can live with a B+ in O-chem….I am already guaranteed another two A’s….still a little disappointed though. lol.
Elizabeth,
Congragulations!
Samantha,
Thank you for the update on Dr. Jefferson. No reason to expect she would slow down. A very remarkable woman.
“Sorry you think I’m a weak “need” phony, but I refuse to condone violence of any sort.”
Sorry about that Samatha, I don’t think you’re a phoney. I just disagree with your statement:
“It seems there is so much hatred and intolerance in the PL community”
Carrie,
My apologies. I should have thanked you for the update on Dr. Jefferson. You are indeed very lucky to have her.
Mary, Samantha and Carrie,
I am just not the type of person to carry the big photos of mutilated babies. So whenever I feel like I am “called to do so” (figuratively speaking) in order to become a “good” pro-lifer it upsets me.
I think we can’t fight evil with evil. We can only fight evil with good. I will stick around. This blog is truly fascinating…
Mary, for what I gather the article is about you. I do not defend Mr. Lalowski’s actions. He is a public official after all.
Now something that I probably could have written to a moderator in the e-mail, but since I am at it. There are solutions to keep the readers updates via e-mail or RSS of ongoing conversation without them necesserily visiting the blog. Just a suggestion.
Mary,
Good points about Gandhi and MLK. Rosa Parks, as well, made a huge statement peacefully that is remembered and admired all these years later.
________________________________________________________
It’s rarer that those who make themselves heard violently are remembered as heroes. Far fewer people admire Louis Farrakhan than Martin Luther King. They both shared a similar goal, one preached violence, the other peace.
It’s funny how some pro-lifers are so weak in the nees, they quickly condemn pro-lifers like Rev. Spitz, but give pro-aborts chance after chance after chance. I feel a need to distance myself from these “pro-life ” phonies.
Posted by: jasper at December 17, 2007 6:19 PM
Jasper,
PLEASE get a grip. We are not pro aborts, we are pro choice.
And how are you giving people chance after chance when you are urging people to Spitz chance after chance? In short, your urging more violence against people. I assumed being PL, was protecting all life. Spitz supports abortion clinic violence, especially bombings. Therefor causes death of people, even innocent ones.
I dare you to say that The Army of God deserves another chance to the victims (& their family) of the Birmingham Clinic bombing, seriously, I DARE you.
Vlad-
I agree with you 100% re: gruesome signs, and I really resent being called out as a “bad pro-lifer” because of it. :(
Vlad,
carrying a big photo of multilated baby (by an abortionist) is evil?
Yes, it is evil, but not by the pro-lifers carrying that photo? Should we not be showing photos of the nazi holocoust?
America will not reject abortion until it see’s abortion.
Jasper,
There is a place and time to show these photos. I do not think they are doing good in the faces of women walking into the clinics. A sing with “I will adopt your baby” will do much better.
Vlad and Samantha, I disagree with you regarding the truth signs, but it is certainly your right to follow your conscience as you see fit. We all have to follow our own path as prolifers. Not all of us are “called” to follow the same path. There should be enough room for all of us.
Vlad,
No the article was about Mary Kay, not me. She’s much younger.
Midnite, I don’t know what “pro-choice” means?? It’s too vague. You are a pro-abort. You think it should be legal to slaughter and mutilate unborn children legallly, you are pro-abort.
Midnite: “Spitz supports abortion clinic violence, especially bombings. Therefor causes death of people, even innocent ones.”
Pro-aborts also support abortion clinic violence (to unborn children), which causes death of the real innocent ones.
Carrie,
As I wrote in the answer to Jasper. There is a place and time to show these pictures. Not every woman will react to the sign in the same way. Not every woman is ready to face the truth. If a flashback to the abortion experience can drive women into a suicidal state of mind so can these image of truth and evil. So who should be responsible if a woman commits suicide? Not the woman, I say that much.
Jasper:
Shut up. You’re ignorant, and know I am not a pro-abort. I would never have an abortion (& you know this too, you just chose to ignore that fact).
————————-
Vlad:
I agree with you about the signs. There is a time and place. It is not shoving it in the faces of women entering a clinic (who could be getting a pap done), or on the side of a truck where small children or the “faint of heart” could see it and pass out while driving (that would kills more innocent people Jasper).
———————————-
And Jasper, you should talk to Vlad more, I think you could learn how to be civil and polite from him.
jasper- I don’t know what you mean by pro-life. You think that it’s cool to war-monger and send young people into a war zone to kill and be killed. Legally, you’re pro-death.
Hey, I was reading the news on AOL, and found this article: New Jersey bans the Death Penalty. So y’all PL’s that are against capital punishment should be pleased.
Although, I must point out that Megan’s killer (this girl inspired “Megan’s Law that required the state to inform neighborhoods that a sex offender has moved into their area).
“Among the eight spared is Jesse Timmendequas, a sex offender who murdered 7-year-old Megan Kanka in 1994”
Timmendequas lived with two other convicted sex offenders across the street from his victim. He lured the girl into his house by offering to show her a puppy. After raping her, he slammed her head onto a dresser, put two plastic bags over her head, and strangled her to death with a belt. He moved her body to his truck, assaulting her once again before placing her in a wooden toy chest and dumping it in nearby Mercer County Park. The next day, he confessed to investigators and led police to the site of the body. Evidence including bloodstains, hair, and fiber samples, as well as a bite mark matching Kanka’s teeth on Timmendequas’ hand, led to Timmendequas being found guilty of kidnapping, four counts of aggravated sexual assault, and two counts of felony murder.
For more info on his criminal history before Megan, read here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Timmendequas
——————————————-
But could someone please explain to me why this man deserves to live?
Vlad, I have witnessed people change their minds about abortion because of the signs(passers-by). They had bought into the myth that who is being aborted is just a “blob of tissue”. I have seen this happen many times. I think the signs aren’t just for the people going into the clinic. It is also to educate the general public about what goes on in a mill and it does work in that respect. As far as people going into the clinic, they don’t get proper info regarding fetal development. The abortionist and his/her staff is certainly not going to give that info to the patient. There have been women who said that if they had that info they wouldn’t have aborted. I haven’t heard of one person committing suicide over a gruesome picture.
Erin you now have 2 points.
Midnite: “Shut up. You’re ignorant, and know I am not a pro-abort. I would never have an abortion (& you know this too, you just chose to ignore that fact).”
midnite, I didn’t say that YOU would have an abortion, I believe you when you say you wouldn’t, but you do think it should be legal for other women to mulilate their unborn children. I don’t have to own or want a gun to be pro-gun rights.
“jasper- I don’t know what you mean by pro-life. You think that it’s cool to war-monger and send young people into a war zone to kill and be killed. Legally, you’re pro-death.”
I don’t think war is cool, but war is sometimes necessary to fight evil (like terrorists or nazis)….Slaughtering or burning to death the most innocnt among us is heinous. There is no comparision.
Midnite, I am against the death penalty, but I don’t know that I have the energy to carry on two debates at once.:)
Antone interested in Rev. Spitz should Google:
“Rev. Spitz Army of God” and
“Rev. Spitz White Rose Banquet”
Not a problem Carrie :-)
Jasper,
As stated above, I’d never have an abortion. But I dont think I have the right (nor do you, Jill, who ever on this site, God or a bunch of old men on Capitol Hill) have the right to tell a grown woman what she can or can not do with her body.
We’ve had this discussion many, many times, and it just wont sink in to that thick skull of yours.
Carrie,
” I haven’t heard of one person committing suicide over a gruesome picture.”
I hope we never do. I think a woman walking into a clinic is looking for a solution. In that perspective would rather carry a sign that says “I will adopt your baby”.
As to the “fetal development” there are less gruesome ways to show that development. I just saw this morning a 4D ultrasound of twins where it looked like one twin was kissing the other one on the cheek- would that be such a bad sign to carry?
“As stated above, I’d never have an abortion. But I dont think I have the right (nor do you, Jill, who ever on this site, God or a bunch of old men on Capitol Hill) have the right to tell a grown woman what she can or can not do with her body.”
neither do I, as long as she doesn’t kill the body(life)inside her.
“We’ve had this discussion many, many times, and it just wont sink in to that thick skull of yours.”
LOL! Midnite, you crack me up sometimes….
I am not sure if I am allowed to post links here but here is the 4d ultrasound I have mentioned:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/womenfamily.html?in_article_id=429098&in_page_id=1799&in_a_source=
neither do I, as long as she doesn’t kill the body(life)inside her.
Well Jasper, I hate to burst your bubble, but as of now, you dont have an opinion on the matter, Roe v. Wade has not been over-turned.
And I am glad I “crack you up:, but you grate on my nerves like no tomorrow. You piss me off to no end most of the time :-)
Just to get off the abortion debate for a couple minutes, I’m interested in asking a different sort of question. (Note: I’m not taking sides, I’m just curious.)
I saw something in an earlier post but figured it would be better answered in an active thread…
So Mike posted something about contracepting parents, and I’m curious as to how many of you are married and use contraceptives.
Lets get beyond the issue of preteens and premarital sex. How many married couples have stopped having sex FOR THE REASON of not having children? (I don’t want to know about your sucky post-marriage bed life, I want to know about abstinence for the purpose of not creating more children)
I mean, if abstinence is the only way to not have children, should married people also abstain? And if not, should they use contraceptives if they don’t want any more children (for any reason, whether preference, medical danger, affordability, etc.)
I’ve heard it from several of you that contraceptives are a “barrier” to the couple’s true love or something to that effect, but would refusal to have sex on the grounds of it could create a pregnancy also create a barrier to their expression of love?
Discuss. =)
Wait, let me rephrase that so I am more (PC) politically correct. You can have an opinion on the matter, but it doesnt change anything.
Midnite,
Pleased? It makes me ill. About the death penalty. Let’s just say a former cop I knew had the following to say about death penalty opponents.
“Wait until they’ve pulled a few dead bodies out of a ditch”.
I see it as protecting society. There are people that will kill and continue to kill. No prison is escapeproof and society has a right to be protected from these beasts. Sorry, but some human beings are just that. Think you’ll change them? Believe me, they will play you for idiots, get off the hook, and then kill you or someone else the first chance they get.
Capital punishment isn’t a deterrent? How many women did Ted Bundy kill after he fried?
Vlad, very cute! I am sure those pictures would be very effective also.
Oh Mary, I completely agree with everything you said. But I know there are a few PL’s on here that are against the death penalty. (I can not figure out why though).
I am a “true” Southerner Mary. I am against gun control (banning of them, but there should be more strict rules regarding purchasing/licensing for a gun), and I am all for the death penalty…
But does man have the God-given right to judge who should live and who should die?
Eydt:
A jury of your peers does under U.S. law (except New Jersey now).
“How many married couples have stopped having sex FOR THE REASON of not having children?”
No Edyt, we haven’t stopped having sex (although, we should have it a little more often (if you ask me)… we use natural family planning.
But Jasper,
Natural Family Planning is not 100% effective.
Edyt,
Do I have the God given right to judge who should live or die when my life is threatened?
You’re damned right I do. Does the state have the right to protect the innocent from predators?
Absolutely.
Have you ever seen how people are so easily conned by these animals? Those dimwit jurors who blubbered over the Menendez brothers, those women who fawned over the night stalker and Ted Bundy. Not to mention those damned fools who turned Mary Winkler loose, you know, the dowdy little minister’s wife who blew away her husband. Yeah, the same dowdy little dear who was kiting checks and pulling off a bank scam prior to offing her husband. Something we all do on a regular basis. The state has an obligation to protect these idiots from themselves.
Mary has a point Edyt.
The majority of states have a self-defense clause in their criminal code. If someone feels that their life is danger or is in danger of serious physical bodily harm (which the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled can lead to death), they’re allowed to use deadly force.
A person is not allowed to use deadly force against mere physical force (except for the Battered wife syndrome which is an affirmative defense).
>>But Jasper,
>>Natural Family Planning is not 100% effective.
Show us an artificial contraceptive that is 100% effective.
Failed artificial contraceptive brings about what you can call a “crisis pregnancy”
NFP is always open to life therefore pregnancy is welcomed.
NFP is always open to life therefore pregnancy is welcomed.
PLEASE! NFP is another form of BC, true it is not artificial, but the goal is to not get preggers when you dont want to.
But my question was not: What do couples do who don’t want to have children except maybe if one sneaks in?
My question was if couples strongly do not want to have children, do they practice abstinence or use contraceptives?
Vlad:
Also, I never said that there was any BC that was 100% effective, except for the abstince only crap the schools teach the youth of our country. We (the tax payers) are waisting $ on a program that the stats have proven dont work. We need to find another form of BC that is 100% effective so the rates of abortion will go down. Which is what most PC’s I know (+ me) want. I seriously want the numbers to go down, but untill we can find another solution, there is no chance.
Edyt,
I hope I didn’t come across as angry at you or your question. I’m angry at the situation I posted about.
>>But Jasper,
>>Natural Family Planning is not 100% effective.
Show us an artificial contraceptive that is 100% effective.
Failed artificial contraceptive brings about what you can call a “crisis pregnancy”
NFP is always open to life therefore pregnancy is welcomed.
Posted by: Vlad at December 17, 2007 8:53 PM
……………………………………
You are assuming that everyone using NFP would welcome it’s failure. You would be incorrect.
PLEASE! NFP is another form of BC, true it is not artificial, but the goal is to not get preggers when you dont want to.
As a matter of fact me and my wife are using NFP to achieve pregnancy at this stage of our life.
” NFP is always open to life therefore pregnancy is welcomed”
yes, I agree Vlad. If my wife gets pregnant. great.
she is 42 now, so thats why we use NFP.
Jasper:
Seriously, a woman being pregnant over the age of 40 is not advised. There are way more complications that come with age and child birth
Midnite,
I think when it comes to tax payers it is all the way around. My tax money are being used to fund PP.
“Jess,
I also know people who are ugly, smelly, or slutty- I don’t harass them.”
Many pro-lifers are quick to call any pro-choicer a baby killer regardless of whether or not they have even ever had sex. And besides gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins, there’s a reason it’s one of the deadly sins because it is so harmful in many different ways. People should know being gluttonous is dangerous. Being ugly isn’t something a lot of people can change and it usually isn’t dangerous and always in the eye of the beholder. If someone smells it could be a medical problem. Maybe you should take them aside and tell them sympathetically you’re worried about them.
Seriously, a woman being pregnant over the age of 40 is not advised. There are way more complications that come with age and child birth
Posted by: midnite678 at December 17, 2007 9:13 PM
Tell that to all the doctors offering treatments to help older women get pregnant.
It is always the same nonsense. You are too old, too young, too poor to busy, too this, too that.
Yeah Yeah, we all support diversity till someone does something different.
Hippie:
I am not telling him and his wife to not get pregnant. I am simply saying that when a woman gets older the risks to her health and the baby’s health goes up dramatically. I was simply giving him so friendly advice.
And dont pretend that you know what I support, b/c you dont.
But my question was not: What do couples do who don’t want to have children except maybe if one sneaks in?
My question was if couples strongly do not want to have children, do they practice abstinence or use contraceptives?
Posted by: Edyt at December 17, 2007 8:56 PM
There are plenty of things that folks don’t want to happen. However, in how many circumstances are we willing to kill to get what we want? In how many cases are we legally allowed to kill people for this or that reason?
Jess,
But you pointed out the person knows they’re obese and why. So why do they need to be informed of their gluttony and referred to as a “fat *&* cow? If I refer to someone by a racial slur, am I just informing them of their skin color?
Oh, by the way, sometimes obesity can be the result of a medical condition as well.
It’s OK midnite, we don’t plan on having anymore children, thats why we use NFP. It works for us.
The chances of a persons obesity being caused by a medical condition are as slim if not less as a woman having an abortion due to rape. And most health problems are related to what you eat. I mean look what comes out of colon cleansing, the colon is the starting point of so many illnesses. Besides it’s not the persons fault they’re a certain race nor is it harmful or something they could change. Maybe she needed to be reminded that it’s a deadly sin and is not healthy and dangerous. Like the warnings on the packs of cigarettes, most people no they’re bad but the warnings make it seem more real and could stop people from smoking. I hope she really thought about what she was doing to herself and her children she might have or has, because they are affected by it to. I just hope everyone remembers this before they go for that second hamburger.
We should do a christmas card exchange!
Jess,
I agree that obesity causes health problems. That’s not the issue here. As you said this woman knows she’s obese and why. On rare occasions it can be a health condition. Can any of us look at a person and tell for certain?
The police officer certainly did not call this woman a “fat *&^ cow” out of concern for her health. Nor was his accusation of gluttony.
This was done out of anger and cruelty.
To say that I call someone a “fat*&*cow” to advise them of their obesity and its health risks is like saying I use racial slurs to inform people of their skin color.
In both situations the people involved do not need me to inform them of these facts, and I have no right to subject them to this kind of hurt and humiliation.
So…pro-lifers shouldn’t call women who abort baby killers?
Jess,
I don’t support name calling or personal attacks. Unless of course one is some moronic juror or equally idiotic sob sister being taken in by some murderer’s sob story con job.
So, pro-choicer’s shouldn’t call pro-lifers fanatical religious zealots?
So, pro-choicer’s shouldn’t call pro-lifers fanatical religious zealots?
————-
http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html
Seeing that many atheists and agnostics are also pro-life .. I think it would be more appropriate to say that pro-lifers are people who strive for recognizing the dignity that each person has.
Elizabeth 10:08PM
…as well as not throw food, curse, leave nasty notes, and even wave a gun from a passing car at PL demonstrators.
Brian,
Thank you for an excellent post.. The PL movement is made up of people of all faiths and no faith. Efforts have been made to portray this as a “Catholic” or “Evangelical” issue. Its a moral issue.
The civil rights movement was a very religiously oriented movement, that did not make civil rights a religious issue. It too was a moral issue.
You missed the whole conversation Elizabeth. And Mary what on Earth are you talking about?
Jess,
Refer up to MK’s article where she discusses her experience in the PL movement over the years.
We should do a christmas card exchange!
Posted by: prettyinpink at December 17, 2007 9:40 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We need a floating recipe thread. (One that stays on the facepage through the holidays.)
I have 4-5 Thanksgiving/Christmas dishes that have come off of these silly message boards. A couple of them have become requested standards.
I need a tried-and-true recipe for Chinese Orange and Sesame Chicken that tastes like Trader Joe’s. I know that it has ginger, soy sauce, seasame seeds and orange juice in it, but after that I get lost.
I didn’t miss the conversation at all, Jess. I read all the comments.
Mary, does that ALSO include them not firing a BB gun at 17-year olds?
Laura,
That sounds like a great idea!
I don’t have many chinese recipes handy, but have some good recipes nonetheless.
We should do a christmas card exchange!
Posted by: prettyinpink at December 17, 2007 9:40 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We need a floating recipe thread. (One that stays on the facepage through the holidays.)
I have 4-5 Thanksgiving/Christmas dishes that have come off of these silly message boards. A couple of them have become requested standards.
I need a tried-and-true recipe for Chinese Orange and Sesame Chicken that tastes like Trader Joe’s. I know that it has ginger, soy sauce, seasame seeds and orange juice in it, but after that I get lost.
Posted by: Laura at December 17, 2007 10:37 PM
…………………………………………………
My son used to own and operate the only Chinese delivery restaurant in town. Send me 10 bucks and I’ll think about getting you the recipe. : )
Think orange rind Laura.
Brian,
Thank you for an excellent post.. The PL movement is made up of people of all faiths and no faith. Efforts have been made to portray this as a “Catholic” or “Evangelical” issue. Its a moral issue.
The civil rights movement was a very religiously oriented movement, that did not make civil rights a religious issue. It too was a moral issue.
Posted by: Mary at December 17, 2007 10:26 PM
………………………………….
Were you born yesterday Mary? It was common knowledge among Christians that black people descended from the sinful Cain and deserved their treatment. I know, that was before you were born and God was born when you got saved. @@
The civil rights movement proved Christianity to be hateful. Interesting how you folk say that God’s word never changes yet magically changes to conform to your agenda.
Sally,
Hardly, I’m older than you.
If you’ll recall, Dr. King was a minister and organized his Montgomery, AL bus boycott from a church. The movement was very religiously oriented, often invoking prayer, God, and the teachings of Christ and Gandhi. Dr.King often preached on the evils of segregation from his pulpit. Black clergymen and were very active, usually from their pulpits as well, as were clergy of all faiths and races. Church members of all faiths were encouraged to involve themselves in the movement, and did. They were also to adhere to the teachings of Dr. King concerning non-violence. I remember a visiting Catholic priest, active in the civil rights movement, preaching on the evils of racism and segregation at our church.
Clergy of all faiths and races marched in civil rights demonstrations,often at serious risk to themselves. They were no more immune than other demonstrators.
Also Sally, you know nothing of my religious history, what I learned, or believed then or now so try not to put your ignorance so proudly on display.
I never heard black people referred to as descended from the evil Cain, though I have heard Jewish people referred to as such over my lifetime, always from ignornat bigots. These bigots included Christians, Muslims, and atheists. You tend to hear a lot of stupid things from such people so you always consider the source. I have also heard Christians, Muslims, and atheists condemn such bigotry. As I pointed out, I spent my childhood alone in far more diversity than most people will see in a lifetime, and that included having Jewish and black friends and neighbors.
Vlad,
Actually, Officer Lalowski kept insisting that he was pro life.
We only use those “Pictures” because the clinic we stand at does not allow us to approach any of the clients. I agree that 90% of the time, a clinic is not the right setting for those pics, but this is on a busy street where cars stop for a train every 20 minutes or so. We decided that since we can’t reach the women, we would go for the public. We pass out pro-life info to the stopped cars, as well as roses.
And we have 15 or so “signs”, all of which are stages of gestation or happy healthy babies. Only one is of an aborted child and it is removed from the others.
This officer definitely had deeper problems. Which is why he shouldn’t be carrying a gun. This was not the first time he had behaved this way. He had every right to express himself, but he crossed a line. I pray for him. I didn’t want him fired. It wasn’t up to me. The police force did it.
Midnite,
In all fairness, many PC people oppose the death penalty as well. You and I make it obvious that this is not an issue that either side has set opinions on.
Ray,
However, MK’s speculation on the reason for the officer’s poor impulse control is laughably absurd.
What speculation? I have no idea why he behaved this way and can’t find anywhere that I claimed I do…
What are you talking about?
MK,
I am not defending Mr. Lalowski. Sorry if I came across that way.
Also when I wrote about pictures, it was more general and not particularly you group.
I do however believe that if you are not ready to take care of that child, you would not be standing in front of the clinic. There are plenty marches and events to exercise your freedom of speech.
Vlad: “I do however believe that if you are not ready to take care of that child, you would not be standing in front of the clinic.”
what do mean Vlad? could you explain a little. Are you telling me that if I can’t raise the baby that about to be aborted, I shouldn’t be protesting?
PLEASE! NFP is another form of BC, true it is not artificial, but the goal is to not get preggers when you dont want to.
Posted by: midnite678 at December 17, 2007 8:55 PM
But with NFP the couple is not having sex during fertile times. It doesn’t really compare to other forms of BC. It’s been over three years since my last baby was born and I haven’t been “scared” I was pregnant once, unlike most of my friends who use condoms or the Pill. Condoms break and more than one friend has forgotten her Pill for a few days.
I think it was Jacque and Bobby that said the Church didn’t approve of NFP being practiced to avoid pregnancy but it was to be used to “space” children. I have spoken to a very orthodox priest about this and he has assured me that is not the case. The number of children is left to the parents but artificial contraception is not to be used.
I would love to have more but after six my husband is feeling the financial strain and I respect that. Is there a possibility that I could get pregnant, of course, just like other methods. However, as other NFP practicers can attest you become so good at it it’s basically a non-issue.
Jasper,
Yes, that is very much how I feel. If you personally can not offer an alternative (take the child or direct a woman to some one who will) you probably be better off not to be in the front of the clinic. You are there in hopes that they would change their mind, are you not? If they do but can’t raise a child themselves, what alternative are you willing to offer?
jasper- I don’t know what you mean by pro-life. You think that it’s cool to war-monger and send young people into a war zone to kill and be killed. Legally, you’re pro-death.
Actually, we’re more than happy with the term “anti-abortion” which clears up exactly what it is we oppose.
Marykay, you rock!!
Vlad,
I donate through my church, every couple months to the local Crisis Pregnancy Center (CPC)…what if I give them this information? Can I then stand by the abortion mill? or do I have to persoally be able to raise that child who is about to be killed?
…what if my neihbor is neglecting his children? do I have a right to let him know he shouldn’t be doing this or do I have to be able raise his children is order to speak up? I see your point, but you quickly excuse the irresponsible behavior of the woman who is about to kill her unborn child.
Carrie,
” I haven’t heard of one person committing suicide over a gruesome picture.”
I hope we never do. I think a woman walking into a clinic is looking for a solution. In that perspective would rather carry a sign that says “I will adopt your baby”.
As to the “fetal development” there are less gruesome ways to show that development. I just saw this morning a 4D ultrasound of twins where it looked like one twin was kissing the other one on the cheek- would that be such a bad sign to carry?
Posted by: Vlad at December 17, 2007 7:52 PM
……………………………………………..
How very whimsical. Women never managed to gestate nor wished to give birth to children until men invented 4D ultrasound ya know.
Vlad,
First off, am I willing to raise those kids? Line ’em up…if I can’t do it, I have a list of people waiting for the opportunity.
Secondly, as I stated, we aren’t really there to change their minds as we can’t get to them…we are there to inform the public. I have counseled at a number of clinics and I wouldn’t recommend our tactics to them. But our clinic is unique. DesPlaines is a relatively small town and it has 3, count them 3, abortion clinics.
Thirdly, there is a CPC one block away and on the very, very rare occasion when a woman HAS changed her mind, we take them there.
I wrote in the past of a woman that I personally spent seven hours with…you do what you can. And you adapt. This clinic requires something different, that’s all.
Fourthly, by your logic, should ALL pro lifers be willing to take these babies, or just the ones that stand outside of clinics? Isn’t our goal to end ALL abortion?
To everyone who claims I rock…
I didn’t actually do anything. Thank the Des Plaines PD. They are the ones that acted.
I appreciate the thoughts tho. A girl can’t get to many compliments!
” NFP is always open to life therefore pregnancy is welcomed”
yes, I agree Vlad. If my wife gets pregnant. great.
she is 42 now, so thats why we use NFP.
Posted by: jasper at December 17, 2007 9:11 PM
……………………….
Great? You care about your wife’s life and health so little?
It’s OK midnite, we don’t plan on having anymore children, thats why we use NFP. It works for us.
Posted by: jasper at December 17, 2007 9:29 PM
……………………………………………..
Not having sex at all is not using NFP. Being impotent is not using NFP.
Way to go, MK!
Lalowski, you dumb Polack (I’m allowed to use that word. Just look in a “Diversity” manual).
The INTOLERANT remarks about Natural Family Planning in this thread are very interesting! Talk about eye-opening!
I’d recommend anyone who thinks slavery was religious in nature to watch the recent film “Amazing Grace” about the life of William Wilberforce, which was all about how rich men wanted slavery to be legal so that they could make money off of it, while religious men wanted to outlaw it because it was wrong.
Now, if I understand leftist debating techniques correctly, I’m now supposed to say that if you refuse to watch “Amazing Grace”, you are an ignorant, fascist, close-minded, bigot. Or something like that.
The INTOLERANT remarks about Natural Family Planning in this thread are very interesting! Talk about eye-opening!
I’d recommend anyone who thinks slavery was religious in nature to watch the recent film “Amazing Grace” about the life of William Wilberforce, which was all about how rich men wanted slavery to be legal so that they could make money off of it, while religious men wanted to outlaw it because it was wrong.
Now, if I understand leftist debating techniques correctly, I’m now supposed to say that if you refuse to watch “Amazing Grace”, you are an ignorant, fascist, close-minded, bigot. Or something like that.
Posted by: John Lewandowski at December 18, 2007 8:40 AM
……………………………….
Honey, I don’t need to watch a movie to explain anything to me. I had grandparents born in the 1800’s. History cannot be rewritten for those that have lived it.
Religion has been the cheerleader of greed since at least the inception of the RCC.
Sally,
Hardly, I’m older than you.
If you’ll recall, Dr. King was a minister and organized his Montgomery, AL bus boycott from a church. The movement was very religiously oriented, often invoking prayer, God, and the teachings of Christ and Gandhi. Dr.King often preached on the evils of segregation from his pulpit. Black clergymen and were very active, usually from their pulpits as well, as were clergy of all faiths and races. Church members of all faiths were encouraged to involve themselves in the movement, and did. They were also to adhere to the teachings of Dr. King concerning non-violence. I remember a visiting Catholic priest, active in the civil rights movement, preaching on the evils of racism and segregation at our church.
Clergy of all faiths and races marched in civil rights demonstrations,often at serious risk to themselves. They were no more immune than other demonstrators.
Also Sally, you know nothing of my religious history, what I learned, or believed then or now so try not to put your ignorance so proudly on display.
I never heard black people referred to as descended from the evil Cain, though I have heard Jewish people referred to as such over my lifetime, always from ignornat bigots. These bigots included Christians, Muslims, and atheists. You tend to hear a lot of stupid things from such people so you always consider the source. I have also heard Christians, Muslims, and atheists condemn such bigotry. As I pointed out, I spent my childhood alone in far more diversity than most people will see in a lifetime, and that included having Jewish and black friends and neighbors.
Posted by: Mary at December 18, 2007 6:29 AM
……………………………….
Mary, you obviously know nothing of the history of your professed religion. MLK did not invent Christianity. Being older than me, you certainly remember black folks attending ‘their own’ churches. Religion is the birth place of bigotry.
Sally said: “Honey, I don’t need to watch a movie to explain anything to me. I had grandparents born in the 1800’s. History cannot be rewritten for those that have lived it.
Religion has been the cheerleader of greed since at least the inception of the RCC.”
Sweetie pie, perhaps you can explain to me why, then, the dreaded RCC has had African Popes? Pope St. Victor I, Pope St. Miltiades, and Pope St. Gelasius were all black men from Africa.
Sally said: “Being older than me, you certainly remember black folks attending ‘their own’ churches. Religion is the birth place of bigotry.”
Yeah, honeybunch, because nothing else was segregated back then. It was ONLY the churches.
Mary, you obviously know nothing of the history of your professed religion.
LOL I can’t wait to hear Mary’s response.
I didnt get fron any of Mary’s posts that she claimed MLK invented Christianity.
Where did she read that?
Sally said: “Honey, I don’t need to watch a movie to explain anything to me. I had grandparents born in the 1800’s. History cannot be rewritten for those that have lived it.
Religion has been the cheerleader of greed since at least the inception of the RCC.”
Sweetie pie, perhaps you can explain to me why, then, the dreaded RCC has had African Popes? Pope St. Victor I, Pope St. Miltiades, and Pope St. Gelasius were all black men from Africa.
Posted by: John Lewandowski at December 18, 2007 9:17 AM
………………………………………………..
Gee snookums, you don’t read your own propaganda now do you? There is no evidence that Vic was Black. One can live in Africa and not be black you know. Ask an Egyptian. According to documentation Miltiades was not dark skinned. You really cannot prove a single one of your ‘popes’ of the very ancient times to have been black.
Now, would you like to pretend that the RCC isn’t all about the power that money brings?
Poor Sally.
Being a bigot and having PTSD must be a heavy cross to bear.
That and having a degree from Jack Chick University to affirm her bigotry didn’t work out so well in the job market. Did it Sally?
Sally said: “You really cannot prove a single one of your ‘popes’ of the very ancient times to have been black.”
Well, toots, you can’t prove that they weren’t black, can you?
Jesus said: “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.”
Sally said: “Now, would you like to pretend that the RCC isn’t all about the power that money brings?”
Sure I can, sugar dumpling:
http://www.catholiccharitiesusa.org
St. Martin Deporres was black, ehh?
Time to adjust the ignorance of Sally.
What was the population of North American Indians in 1500a.d.?
I didnt get fron any of Mary’s posts that she claimed MLK invented Christianity.
Where did she read that?
Sally tends to frequently read things that aren’t there. It’s a talent of hers.
“You are there in hopes that they would change their mind, are you not? If they do but can’t raise a child themselves, what alternative are you willing to offer?”
Vlad, you seemed to be putting no onus on the one performing the slaughtering or the one allowing it to happen, only on the protestors. Your view is the view of a typical pro-abort. There’s always an excuse.
Jasper
Quit attacking people for no da*n reason. Vlad has done nothing but express a different opinion than yours. He is simply approaching the situation for a different place than you would. Y’all are on the same side idiot. Dont mock your own. He seems to be a very civil & polite PL.
Midnight.
Your getting emotional again. That makes for a bad law enforcement officer.
You really cannot prove a single one of your ‘popes’ of the very ancient times to have been black.
You cannot prove they were not!
Ab and John do have a point.
Yes white people can live in Afria. They can not prove said pope was black just like we can not prove said pope was white.
Although, (since I am not catholic) I must ask a question.
Besides this pope y’all are debating over, has there been a pope that someone can prove was black?
Midnite, as far as I know, only those three popes were supposedly black. There have been many black saints, and black bishops and priests, however.
My point is simply that racism has existed in societies, and while folks may use religion in bad attempts to justify it, it is rarely rooted in religion. It’s rooted in greed and selfishness, which are antithetical to what Jesus taught. Jesus told us to help those in need and to preach the Truth to sinners, not to lie, cheat, and steal.
As I showed in my quote from the Gospel, Jesus Christ himself instructed us to make disciples of ALL nations. You cannot agree with that quote and be racist at the same time.
John:
As I’ve said before, I am not religous, so that quote does not apply directly to me (but no I am not racist, and yes I live in Alabama).
But if there have been (3) supposed black Popes before, why has the RCC, not had a black Pope any time in the last Century?
If they’ve had them before, why not now?
Midnite, most popes are Italian, so therefore they aren’t black.
However, one serious candidate for the papacy after the passing of Pope John Paul II was in fact a black man from Africa, the wonderful Cardinal Francis Arinze of Nigeria. Cardinal Arinze is currently the Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, a position previously held by the current Pope.
John
I assumed most Popes were Italian, but seeing as I was raised in the Presbyterian church, I know really nothing on the Catholic Church.
My priests were from Nigeria and Vietnam. I don’t think that makes a difference but whatever.
I don’t think NFP is really that natural. Taking your temp every day, measuring vaginal mucous, etc. This is only for people who have a regular cycle. Some use machines. Wow sounds really natural ;)
Cardinal Arinze is THE MAN! I listen to his podcast. He’s so great. Like John said, though, I think he will be the top candidate for the next pope (which will hopefully be 1000000 years from now) along with Cardinal Schonborn.
PIP, NFP is all about measuring the natural mechanisms of the female body. Catholics have a lot of respect for the female body, as it is a marvelous creation, and we believe that God’s greatest human creation was a woman – the Blessed Virgin Mary.
The purpose of NFP is to show respect for both the female body and for the Sacrament of marriage. Instead of seeking to defeat the body and its natural glory as is the case with condoms and especially birth control pills, through NFP, Catholics respect the woman as God made her, allowing her body to determine when they are ready or not ready to attempt to conceive.
Basically, we Catholics do not think that there is anything wrong with the female body. We respect it as it is instead of trying to change it into something else.
John,
But is it OK for a Catholic woman to be on BC
pills for medical reasons?
Lots of woman (myself included) take them soley for medical purposes. I was on BC for almost fours years before, well you know.
Anyhoo, is that ok, or no?
When you proABORTS (Abortion, a savage act of voilence that intentionally kills an innocent child, IS the option you try to euphemize/legitimize with your misuse of the word “choice” – what the first victims never get, and the majority of their moms feel more frightened, duped or coerced into than anything that could legitimately be thought of as a “free choice”; Deal with it) stop promoting violence/murder against billions (world wide; still “only” in the millions in the U.S., unless you count the ones killed by abortifacient “contraceptives”)of unborn babies, and the legal maiming and killing of thousands more of their mothers than your “safe & legal” mantra would have us believe, then perhaps we can attribute your condemnations of Rudolph, Spitz, and others to something other than professional jealousy or pure projection. Maybe then we can take your alleged objections to violence, murder & mayhem more seriously than we can take the claims of confirmed lunatic who claims (s)he is Napoleon, a poached egg, etc. Why not give it a try, if it’s really worth anything to you. If it isn’t, why should we attach any value to it?
Especially damning is the way most borts I’ve encountered have screamed for the murder of anyone who has used lethal force to intervene on behalf of their intended victims, born and unborn. Emily Lyons especially demonstrated this in screaming for the execution of Eric Rudolph (which I personally believe would have been biblically justified on several counts without twisting or ignoring pertinent scriptures, unlike Emily’s own part in the murders of thousands of children killed at the death mill(s)where she helped ply that grisly trade, and which she still supports)…even though she survived her injuries. None of her preborn victims, that I know of, have been so fortunate;
and some of their mothers (or those women’s survivors) were just as surprised, and outraged, at the aftermaths/injuries they have had to deal with by their visits to Emily’s “clinic” as Emily has been by what Rudolph inflicted upon her, for the sheer sake of defying a government he disagreed with (if you’ve read his “confession”). In short, it’s not OK for Paul Hill, James Kopp, et al to kill a few of you, but it’s OK for you to kill as many innocent children and dupe and endanger as many of their moms in the process as you can. Have none of you ever heard the old saying about the pot calling the kettle black, or do concepts like hypocrisy or justice have no meaning to you at all?
I’m not convinced that lethal force is the way to solve social problems, either, but you guys must face and deal with the fact that that is what is inflicted on at least two people in the name of “health care” in the some 3,500 induced abortions (the obvious exceptions being the “preemptive” /”just for the extra money” “procedures” done on women who aren’t even really pregnant to begin with)committed every day in the U.S. Where the woman really is pregnant, at least one of your intended victims is innocent. (S)he has done you no harm, intends you no harm, and does not need or deserve to die.
Even if the woman herself is guilty of fornication, adultery, or intent to murder, or all 3, most prolifers would much prefer helping her and her child get through the pregnancy alive, then helping her get on her feet as needed to subjecting her or the child to the haunting horrors of induced abortion.
There are a number of ways to stop the shooting of abortionists, (I don’t think any have been shot now for some years, have there? Yet millions of innocent kids have continued to be slaughtered by you so-called “paragons of peace”, and you’re all screaming for more bloodshed like bottomless hyenas, leaches…)the bombing of death mills disguised as “health care clinics”, etc. Nazi-style laws like FACE, escorts callously dragging more frightened women and their innocent children into harm’s way, and similar methods don’t become the free, safe, compassionate, just society most sane people want for themselves, and for their children to inherit. Encouraging the killers to stop the killing inside the mills that has provoked some of the acts of real, lethal force perpetrated, in defense of innocent children, against abortion profiteers and their facilities is a much better way. [Not all; some bombings/arsons have been proven to be committed by the “clinic” owners for insurance, and it makes more sense to suspect someone who kills for a living to be more inclined to take the lives of other people who somehow inconvenience them than people believe that innocent human life, at least, is sacred, and that the people most needful and deserving of protection are the smallest, weakest, and most defenseless…and this would probably still occur occasionally if killing unborn children were recriminalized in the legal systems of all countries where it is currently legal. It’s a heinous crime against humanity, legal or not. Hitler never broke the law; he just changed the laws to accomodate the oppression and further atrocities which were the logical outworkings of his own bigotry, which, incidentally, ran counter to the actual teachings of Christ; of course, most active, devout Muslims would have had no problem with Hitler; they want to destroy all Christians and Jews, and many of them hail Hitler as their hero, model, comrade, etc. (Yes, I know that this will raise the ire of some Muslims and other anti-Christians; but it is one thing to say you object to murdering the innocent, and another to actively oppose it. Lots of Germans in Nazi Germany would have said they did not agree with the atrocities going on in the death camps; but few would have chosen helping rescue the intended victims of those camps than helping themselves to the gold, money, clothing, and other things confiscated from those victims and offered to the Aryans…at a terrible price. Hitler and many other Nazis hailed Martin Luther (not MLK) as “a true son of Germany” for his rabidly anti-Semitic views and writings. I have read some of these, and the fact is that when Luther left the Roman Catholicism, he was quite sympathetic towards the Jews, stating that, given the way the Roman church of his day viewed and treated them, he himself would rather be a dog than a Jew. However, when some of them refused Christ as Messiah, he turned on them as a whole, and wrote stuff advocating the demolition of their synagogues, homes, businesses…in short, he outlined Krystallnicht. All this is true; however, it is also true that there is no legitimate biblical foundation for these parts of his teachings. It is also a fact that Hitler, in his zeal to establish the world-wide, socialist atheocracy still sought and promoted by others since his death, slaughtered not only some six million Jews, but some twelve million Christians, as well as hundreds of thousands of political dissidents, mentally handicapped (under the Thurd Reich, these last two categories were somewhat synonymous), physically handicapped, elderly, and members of other non-Aryan races.
And not all those victims/martyrs were born. Within the death camps were abortuaries which ran at least 12 hours a day, seven days a week (no sabbath, an unlikely arrangement for the true believers Sally would like us to think the bigoted Nazis all were) emptying one pregnant “non-Aryan/subhuman” womb after another. (I think the slogan/rallying cry in these units was “nits make lice”, as for the child-killing part of other genocidal campaigns).
Does religion breed bigotry? Some do, some don’t. The New Testament shows Christians preaching as openly as possible to as many as possible, inviting public dialogue, inviting investigation; it advocates that they carry weapons TO USE for self-defense, but it does not suggest that they go on the offensive using force to convert others, as does Islam. Christ’s own dealings with people addressed them as individuals. He took into account their religious backgrounds, diseases(if any), and all other factors of their condition, but he did not view them solely in terms of those things. He confronted their sins, regardless of their condition/position, forgiving them and admonishing them to repent. Luther’s anti-Semitic writings did not accurately reflect the teachings of Christ anymore than the attitudes of many (NOT ALL) Catholics and other Protestants of his time, many of whom lost or risked their lives resisting/opposing the Thurd Reich. Hitler’s genocidal campaigns, however, carried to their logical end the actual views & teachings of Darwin, Galton, Malthus, Nietzche, and most, if not all, of the the eugenists, humanists, atheists, occultists, socialists, and others who equally- and quite religiously, btw- hated the God of scripture, His Christ, His laws and other teachings, and His followers.
I have visited the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C. a number of times; and the last couple of times, I have been deeply saddened by the anti-Christian sentiment/propaganda present there. It is grossly oversimplified, like any other caricature. The main thought conveyed is the view that “Christians hate Jews because they blame them for the crucifixion of Christ.” That is profoundly, and dangerously, erroneous. No one who does not hold him/herself PERSONALLY responsible for the crucifixion of Christ can be, ipso facto, a true Christian, for it is the realization and confession, I am a sinner at the mercy of a justly offended Creator, and Christ, Who is the only begotten Son of God, died for MY sins, that is the foundation of a saving relationship with God through Christ, regardless of one’s background; whether it is atheist, agnostic, Wiccan, Satanist, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Sikh, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Marxist, Socialist, etc. Christ’s crucifixion was HIS OWN willing act of obedience to God, Who knew NO OTHER WAY to redeem from sin, and restore to fellowship, any of fallen mankind who wanted that redemption and restoration. Yes, the Jews participated in the actual event to a degree that some other groups did not; that is a historical fact; but to say that they were solely responsible for that act, given the singular nature of the victim and the teachings of both the old testament prophecies and new testament accounts & reflections on it’s significance, is not unlike looking at an elephant’s leg and concluding from that that the elephant most resembles a tree trunk…;)
The museum does not, to my recollection, acknowledge the millions of Christians martyred for their faith by the Nazis; and, while it has openly exposed the role of eugenics played in that holocaust, it suppresses (as of my most recent visit; hope springs eternal) the considerable evidence of the ideological, financial, social and other links between that holocaust and the abortion holocaust, the death count of which has dwarfed that of the Nazis in the U.S. alone, though, to it’s credit, it does acknowledge , and encourage opposition/resistance to some smaller genocidal campaigns currently waged elsewhere.
But the anti-Christian bias I noted on my most recent visits there was false, shallow, cruel, unfounded, and hardly likely to promote the realization of the slogan, “NEVER AGAIN”.
Anyone concerned about the dangers of bigotry, the true nature of Christianity, and the relationship between bigotry and slavery/socialism should read Frederick Douglass’ autobiography, “My Bondage and My Freedom”. You can treat yourself to a paperback copy of it for about 7 bucks at Barnes & Noble’s “classics” series, or you can read it all online at gutenberg.org. A good accompaniment to it is an older book, called The Bible…again, regardless of your background.
Yes, the increase in First Amendment violations by cops towards prolifers should be opposed and stopped; it also is part and parcel of socialist tyrants; the Constitution of Germany was systematically abolished by the Nazis. Let’s don’t go there again.
It can be, midnite. Principle of double effect. I’m not competent to judge what kind of medical conditions qualify, but those are the types of cases that it is allowed. Intent is a large, often overlooked, aspect of moral theology.
Thanks for not answering my question at all. *mutters angrily*
[Not all; some bombings/arsons have been proven to be committed by the “clinic” owners for insurance, and it makes more sense to suspect someone who kills for a living to be more inclined to take the lives of other people who somehow inconvenience them
Please cite a source for this Wachet Auf.
Also, regular doctors, Church’s, Country Clubs, grocery stores, and people’s personal homes have been torched by them to recieve insurance money. That is not restricted to clinics.
Bobby:
But should a woman consult her Priest before she starts the BC, or should she make the call herself?
The Signs (Posters) of the Truth of Abortion
Yesterday I have participated in a very lively discussion at Jill Stanek’s blog. As the discussion progressed, there was an opportunity to touch on something I have planned to write on my blog in the past. It was in respect to posters so often ca…
I think she probably should consult both her priest and a doctor to make sure that BC pills are really the only option she has, or at least, the only good option. But I’m not positive about that.
Wow! This thread is covering so many topics at once. But I am not surprised at all- that is the sign of a good blog!
There was however a topic yesterday touched by me and others on which I wanted to elaborate more. However I have decided to pick up the discussion over on my blog, with a full credit given to this thread.
I think Jasper, Mary, Samantha have responded to me on that subject. I would appreciate your feedback:
http://www.volodymyrzablotskyy.com/posters-of-abortion/
If you still interested that is.
Bobby:
If the doc prescribed BC for a medical reason, it is in his opinion that BC is the best, and most effective way to go or he wouldnt have prescribed it.
But does the Priest have a say over the medical health of a woman? I mean, why does he get more say in her health than she does?
Hey midnite.
“But does the Priest have a say over the medical health of a woman? I mean, why does he get more say in her health than she does?”
No, he doesn’t have a say over the doctor. I think I didn’t make myself clear above. What I meant was that I have heard some stories about Catholic women who have been prescribed the pill by their doctor only to look into things deeper and find out that there was a better alternative. A priest would make sure that the women has exhausted all her options, I suppose you could say. But no, in fact midnite, if it is the case that the pill is medically in the best interest of the women, then a priest has no right to override that.
Thanks for the explanation Bobby.
Midnite, as you know, the chemicals in birth control can also be used to treat illnesses in some cases. It is not considered morally licit (by Catholics) to use them to combat fertility, because fertility is not an illness.
But, since certain disorders are treated by same chemicals found in birth control pills, clearly it is morally OK (from a Catholic point of view) to make use of those chemicals in that fashion. In this scenario, the effect on fertility would be an unwanted but unavoidable side effect.
The point is that the chemicals are not inherently bad. Here’s an extreme example which I think makes the point well. Nuclear power. It can either be used to bring electricity to thousands or millions of people, or it can be used to cause terrible destruction. Clearly it’s good if it brings electricity to people, but bad if it’s used to kill people. It all depends on what it’s being used for. The same goes for the chemicals used in birth control pills.
Vlad: “I do however believe that if you are not ready to take care of that child, you would not be standing in front of the clinic.”
Perhaps I’ve missed something, but that sounds a little strong, Vlad. Most of the folks I know who go and stand in front of the mills are willing to do as much as they/we (I join in the local efforts as I can) are able to in terms of giving or getting the endangered woman and her child the care they need. But suppose one isn’t, at the moment, in a position to adopt children onesself, but you can help get the child to people who can give both mother and child the help they need to get safely through the pregnancy and well beyond, as needed?
The thing is, we’ve heard this kind of thing by a number of proaborts, and none of them has ever answered the counter question in the affirmative and that is this question:
If we saw you about to be savagely attacked, hacked to pieces or pickled alive, like these babies, would you want us to refrain from doing what we could to rescue you just because we may not be able to personally take care of you for the rest of your life?
We have seen people driving into the death camps in cars sporting wheel rims, the cost of ONE of which (the rim, not the car) would cover the costs of delivering the baby. The car or the rim could, of course, if damaged or stolen, be replaced with an exact, or nearly exact, duplicate; the same cannot be said for the baby, or any parts of the mother injured, or her life if that is taken, also. This is not always the case; we see some pretty dilapidated, old clunkers chugging into those lots, too (they usually belong to some of the lower rung mill staff), but it happens often enough to convince the alert observer that the “poverty” driving most of these folks into these bloodbathhouses is more in the departments of knowledge, justice, priorities or imagination than it is in the financial area.
Just Thinking,
That is not what said.
I am for protests- but please be ready to offer help either by taking the baby or directing to some one who will. And yes if you can’t offer these two simple things better stay home.
I am for protests but against the posters- read my todays post:
http://www.volodymyrzablotskyy.com/posters-of-abortion/
Vlad,
What you are proposing is just ridiculous in my opinion. People can protest all they want to, that doesn’t mean they have to take on the responsibility of other people’s irresponsible actions. What ever happened to people taking responsibility for their OWN decisions and not running away from them, or passing them off to someone else? To assume that I can not protest which is my right as an American citizen because I won’t take on every child of a woman who can’t keep her legs closed is just ludicrous.
Jasper,
Are you one of the moderators? Is you will not see me commenting here. It is very rude what you have just done.
I do hope Jill sees this.
Good bless all!
Vlad,
Satan is speaking through you.
Posted by: jasper at December 18, 2007 4:14 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
WAIT! Jasper said that I was Satan’s little bullhorn!
I’ve been replaced?
I don’t see anything “satanic” with what Vlad said:
please be ready to offer help either by taking the baby OR directing to some one who will. (emphasis mine)
I thought it was pretty common for those protesting/counseling outside of clinics to offer literature about services to help expectant mothers, adoption agencies, etc.
Jasper, it is not true I am not telling people not to protest. Read carefully what I have written and do not accuse me of something I have never said. I think name calling might be against the comments policy- if such exists.
Jasper,
Although your name is listed there, I am afraid you have never actually read the guidelines. Take a moment, and do just that:
http://preciousinfants.com/jillsrules.htm
No, very clearly Vlad is just saying that if a protester cannot offer an alternative to abortion, and instead just tries to deter someone from seeking one, then they really don’t have as compelling a reason to try to stop someone. Giving a woman an option instead of flat out just saying “It’s WRONG! DON’T DO IT!” is much more effective. If a protester is just there to hold a sign and chant pro-life mantra, they aren’t doing any good for their cause. I assume what Vlad is trying to say is that those that give a pregnant woman an alternative, or can give direction to an alternative (much like MK and her pamphlets, people who personally direct these women to CPC’s, etc) are doing a whole helluva lot more good. Just standing and holding signs and telling someone they’re doing something wrong is not a good plan, and Vlad has a valid point when he says you might as well stay home- if you’re not able to direct someone towards getting help, then you’re not much help yourself. You don’t have to adopt the kid outright, just do what you can to give that alternative to the pregnant woman instead of just telling her that’s she’s wrong for what she wants or needs to do.
Jasper is a mod????
Seriously????
I completely understand what Vlad is trying to say. Offer an alternative to these women who obviously already feel they are in a desperate situation, whether it is access to services to financially and emotionally help them with a baby or to adoption agencies.
To convince these women to carry out pregnancies they already think they are unprepared for and to not offer any sort of assistance is the more evil thing to do, in my opinion.
All,
I was out of line saying that Vlad is under a Satanic attack. I have deleted those comments I made. Even though our dicussion got a little heated, I believe Vlad is a good man (from briefly reading his blog, etc) and I hope he will accept my apology and continue to visit.
“(much like MK and her pamphlets, people who personally direct these women to CPC’s, etc”
I’ve already indicated that I give out information about CPC’s Lyssie… way upthread.
Then you aren’t the type of person Vlad is talking about. I think he’s more concerned about people that just protest for the sake of protesting, yet don’t have anything to offer a pregnant woman going into an abortion clinic.
I wasn’t personally against what you do, per se, because I vaguely remember you mentioning your involvement in helping out with CPC’s. I just didn’t agree with your interpretation of Vlad’s statements. No worries. :D
Jasper,
Apology accepted. I think we all wind up a little and tend to not read carefully what other person had written. That was the main reason I have decided to take part of the discussion to my own blog. Oh what could we do without the internet? ;)
Lyssie,
I can’t imagine that there are very many people just out there shouting and not offering any tangible help to these women. I think doing that is completely contradictory to what the pro-life movement stands for. It’s like saying, “We want you to not have an abortion, but we aren’t going to assist you in any way if you don’t have one.” I don’t know of many pro-life protestors who would not offer help to a woman who decides not to have an abortion. I know I wouldn’t do that…I would offer tons of information, rides to places, etc. When I got pregnant, I went to my church and there was a woman who got me into contact with a woman who would help me. She sent me gift cards, took me to any appointments I needed..and that was AFTER I had told my parents and they were being supportive. The resources are ready and willing to help in any way they can..people just have to be aware of them. I think many pl protestors make it their mission to get these resources out there for pregnant women in crisis.
I am hesitating to write this, but I would do a big disservice to myself and this community if we stopped here and learned nothing from this experience….
I came to this blog just few days ago. I was captivated by what Jill has written. No one has seen me before here. I just might have been that man dealing with my abortion trauma. I could have written few words to see how the “good” people will react to me… Will the good people that prayed for me and my girlfriend as we walked passed them, forgive me now… Even though I told them to $%^# off and mind their own business? If they can’t forgive me, then the priest will never even want to talk to me. I am surely going to hell….
I hope every one gets the picture. I hope that the next time you are about to write a comment here, you will take a deep breath, say a prayer…. and maybe chose not to write your answer right away but come back later.
On word you ever say or write can mean a difference of hell and heaven to some one.
Sally 9:16am
Please follow my advise on not displaying your ignorance of my religious history or beliefs. I give it with the best intentions.
I said nothing about MLK inventing religion, I said he was a minister.
Also, people attending their “own” churches was and still is common. It had and has nothing to do with bigotry and everything to do with personal preference, shared religious beliefs and culture, or language, and people who happen to live in the same community.
John Lewandowski, 9:19am
Indeed, segregation was not restricted to churches but also involved public facilities, hospitals, businesses, public transportation, and very shamefully, even our military. Harry Truman finally ended segregation of the armed forces. It would be several more years until action was taken against this injustice in other parts of our society, and only after a bitter struggle.
Vlad 9:53PM
How true.
Look Vlad,
I apologized to you.
I don’t need a lecture from you on “what I have learned”… you have compared pro-lifers who show graphic photos as “Taliban style” and “terror” pro-lifers who withhold forgiveness. Heed your own words. I agree with Fr. Pavone.
“Jasper is a mod????
Seriously????”
Yea, you have problem with that? Speak up then.
Tell us about it.
Wow, comments get edited real quick. ;)
What speculation?
MK, sorry about that. I was referring specifically to Vlad’s statement in the first comment:I think many women and men in the police force are dealing with aftermath of abortion themselves, which I reiterate is baseless and absurd, and misread it as part of your commentary.
Midnite,
But Jasper,
Natural Family Planning is not 100% effective.
That’s the point of NFP…if we get pregnant, we celebrate. If not, okay. The whole point is that we are NOT horrified at the prospect. We are open to it either way.
It’s my favorite prayer to God…”Thy will be done. But if it’s no skin off your nose, would you mind…(fill in the blank, in this case, hold off on any more children)…
It’s saying “You know best and whatever you decide is the right thing, but I, with my little tiny brain think I would like to put off having more babies right now. But if YOU think I should have them, well then, bring them on!
And NFP is as effective as the pill.
Ray,
No problem. I just thought I’d missed something or said something that I forgot I said…It does get confusing around here sometimes.
Edyt,
I took Accutane for acne 19 years ago. The dermatologist insisted that I take birth control while I was on the Accutane. I threw the birth control away and abstained for a year. On the very day that the year was up, we conceived Kevin. He’s now 18.
I am now going on fifty and still a fertile myrtle. My husband and I practice a very “loose” form of NFP. I suffer from arthritis and think it would be physically difficult to carry another child. But ultimately, it’s God’s decision. So we abstain when I’m most fertile. But I don’t take my temp or anything. Just follow the mucus.
And if I found myself pregnant, I’d hobble through somehow.
Does that answer your question?
Ray,
Are you saying that police force is magically different from the rest of our society? If there is hardly a family out there that is not affected by abortion in one way or another.
I was referring specifically to Vlad’s statement in the first comment:I think many women and men in the police force are dealing with aftermath of abortion themselves, which I reiterate is baseless and absurd
Jasper,
I also have witnessed you addressed some one with a four letter word. I have to say you were very quick to edit your comment once you realized your mistake- but you never now who is watching.
Yes, of course some police officers are dealing with the aftermath of abortion themselves. I once saw an off-duty officer drop off a woman at a Planned Parenthood, at a time when abortions were scheduled. He swerved his car, intentionally, to terrorize/intimidate a protester on the sidewalk (not the street or in the driveway/parking lot)who was displaying a photo of the sort of “health care” imposed on the unborn at such death mills as he had contracted to kill that child. Interesting. You’d think a big, tough guy, especially a cop, would be able to handle the truth better than that, wouldn’t you? After all, haven’t they “seen it all”?
I know of another police officer, a thirty-something father of 3 or 4, who committed suicide some years ago. He left a note stating that his suicide was due to the overwhelming grief and guilt he felt from failing to protect his own child from slaughter by induced abortion.
And, of course, we recall the officer killed in the 1998 bombing of the Birmingham, AL chop shop by Eric Rudolph. I understand that the operators of that hellhole planted a magnolia tree in his memory. I think it would be more fitting to plant magnolias in memory of the freedom the police had to actually protect and serve the innocent before Roe v. Wade stripped those rights away from yet another class of people targeted for destruction.
Perhaps some prolifer with the means should plant a whole plantation of magnolias in honor of the police officers killed before they were born at places like the one Sanderson was defending when he was killed in the line OFF duty, in more ways than one. Of course, no one can examine the remains of an aborted baby and determine what (s)he would have become if allowed to live, but one should be able to calculate a reasonably fair estimate by considering the approximate number of babies killed by induced abortions (surgical and RU-486) since Roe (about 50 million). This is the equivalent of about 18 U.S. states; so just take those states and calculate how many policemen have joined those forces since about 1993, and you should be able to come close…and be sure to leave room for the ones who would be in 20 or so more years, given the chance.
Yes, there are a number of zeroes with guns, sticks, tazers and badges who should not be entrusted with the protection of the innocent public. Some of these are, not surprisingly, womanizers, so naturally they would likely patronize abortuaries. There are also, I believe, a number of real heroes trying to do a hard job honestly and well, who suffer disgrace from the others. In any case, I think the copkiller non pareil award should go to the abortionists; the sheer numbers, reasonably calculated, are staggering.
———————————————–
Obviously, Vlad, the more help one is able to offer an abortion-bound woman, the better; and mercifully, pro-life crisis pregnancy resource centers presently outnumber baby-killing chambers about 3 to 1; but I don’t think that a lack of such resources should stop anyone from trying to dissuade anyone from getting their child killed. The need for financial/housing/medical assistance may be there; the need for information they won’t get from the killers due to the very considerable conflict of interests between the truth and the killers’ bank accounts is usually much greater, and the danger posed to both the mother and child inside these places is greater still.
The thing is to do the best one can with what one has; God doesn’t require more, why should anyone else?
This is great news…I pray that prolife people do not stereotype the police as being prochoice..I am a police officer and I am prolife…and alot of my co-workers are prolifers..and we pray at abortion mills….we actually have opportunities to talk to ladies to stay away from having abortions because we come into contact with alot of people everyday that seek council from the police…so we are all not that bad….Thank you…
MK, I would have punched that guy.