Demonic deathscorts
These freaky videos were taken in front of a Vienna, Austria, abortion mill owned by inaptly named abortionist Christian Fiala. He pays “escorts” to taunt pro-lifers from Human Life International praying in front of his mill.
Each video is described in English and is between 4-4:30 minutes long. (See 2nd video on page 2.)
WorldNetDaily.com picked up the story yesterday:
A new video posted by the Catholic-based Gloria TV has documented the “demonic” behavior of pro-abortion activists who grunt, bark and shriek in the faces of pro-life prayer warriors in Vienna….
The video…shows animalistic behavior, with growling, name-calling, barking, groaning, screaming and uncontrolled laughing and giggling sounds.
Father Markus Doppelbauer, who contributes to the editing of the website, told WND that abortion remains a flashpoint topic in Austria.
“Part of the socialist strategy is to systematically denigrate the pro-lifers,” he said. “The socialists love to accuse them in public statements of ‘psycho-terror’ and other atrocities.”…
“This video is, at the same time, shocking and frightening. It shows to what extent a human being who does not respect each person’s right to live can degenerate,” Doppelbauer said.
These people do seem possessed, which would absolutely come as no surprise.
WND continued:
An earlier video by Gloria TV also revealed the sexual and physical assaults inflicted on prayer warriors by Fiala’s staff on the public streets in front of the abortion business, the organization said.
I was shocked by the graphic sexual intrusions….
[HT: Peter LaBarbera of Americans for Truth]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
The meekness of those pro-lifers is convicting.
Wow.
So no one else thought the grunting and out right ridculousness of this was hysterical? Some of the faces were creepy, but I could see a bunch of kids at school walking up to a stranger and doing this for a few laughs afterwards.
I didnt think it was that frightening at all,mostly just funny. The first video anyway.
the terrorista tu piece was a bit creepy to, and if that cold water thing is true, thats ridiculous.
But all in all I found the first video more funny than frightening
Wow, so this is what happens when you have no right to your own bodily privacy.
These video’s didn’t work for me so I looked one up on Youtube. There was some guy sexually harassing a girl and two pro-life male protesters were right there and they did nothing to help her. I think they were probably worse for letting some guy do that to her and just standing around. At the very least they should have tried to block him. If someone was rapping her would they just turn away? I know they’re trying to be all non-violent but an innocent person is being abused right in front of them and they stand there!
Wow, so this is what happens when you have no right to your own bodily privacy.
Nope, sorry, Tina. ‘
Abortion involves two bodies, not one.
This is a classic example of how bad it can get when pro-abortion supporters do not tolerate free speech of the opposition, because they simply do not like the message.
Just seeing a man praying outside an abortion clinic is a big enough deal to them that they will come and treat them in this manner? What was the man doing to invade their bodily autonomy? Nothing. He was simply praying.
Do you think it is acceptable to molest people and touch their private parts in public, simply because you do not like their message?
I have to think that girl liked being touched like that in public. She didn’t even say no. She was just standing there letting that pervert touch her. She could have at least said “please stop I don’t like that.”
Jess, you are mistaken. There are no pro-life protesters beside the girl. She is surrounded by the pro-abortion men.
Not the video I watched on Youtube. Remember these don’t work for me.
Show me the video you’re referring to..
I have to think that girl liked being touched like that in public. She didn’t even say no. She was just standing there letting that pervert touch her. She could have at least said “please stop I don’t like that.”
Jess, perhaps she was too scared to. She could have been petrified.
Are you actually blaming a girl for being molested? It was her fault in your opinion?
I don’t blame the girl for her molestation, but even if your petrified, or trying to make a point, no matter what it is, I’d still expect some kind of reaction, even as small as saying no or stepping away. Its odd that she just stood there and took it, but perhaps she was too afraid to do anything. Still just, odd. Its obvious she was molested, and its obviously not her fault. But why she just stood there, even if she was afraid, is still a bit beyond my grasp.
Oh, and bethany, I replied in the guttmacher thread.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ4vCSgakyU
One of her fellow protesters should have come to her aid then. @3:08. The guy on her right is a protester. And at one point the guy who was harassing her walks away and she stays there. Maybe the person taping this should have stepped in instead of just video tapping it.
Hey, you usually have to pay Mistress Mandy big bucks for that kind of abuse.
Those are some lucky self-loathing pro-lifers.
Women have to use common sense and stand up for themselves. Maybe she was scared and didn’t know it was going to happen so it isn’t her fault someone should have stood up for her.
And if it’s so bad where are the police? The protesters are only hurting themselves, I want to know if they’ve actually changed anyone’s mind.
Wow, that’s pretty annoying. I think that people should have the right to pray peacefully without having others harass the crap out of them, no matter what the reason is.
But I also think that people should have the right to go home to their family after a day at work — at least during the holidays — without having others harass the crap out of them, no matter what the reason is.
*cough*theWeitzes,amongcountlessothers*cough*
Yeah at least these people can go home and relax afterwards without having these people follow them home. And hanging outside their homes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ4vCSgakyU
One of her fellow protesters should have come to her aid then. @3:08. The guy on her right is a protester. And at one point the guy who was harassing her walks away and she stays there. Maybe the person taping this should have stepped in instead of just video tapping it.
Jess, wow. I just can’t believe you are saying this. Honestly.
First take a look at the video again. This is the same video, by the way.
The man who walks by on the right, how do you know he is a fellow protester?
Secondly, while he passes by, the two men stand on her side, acting innocent, until the man has passed by. It is not until after there is no one to watch the abuse, that they begin doing what they’re doing.
Have you ever, ever been sexually assaulted, Jess? If not, you have absolutely no flipping idea how terrifying it can be to have a man do something like this to you.
I can only imagine that it would be triply terrifying having three men surrounding you while they torment you in public.
And if it’s so bad where are the police? The protesters are only hurting themselves, I want to know if they’ve actually changed anyone’s mind.
Why don’t you tell me, Jess? Do you really not think that anything those men were doing was inappropriate? Wow.
Jess, also, how do you know who was videotaping the assault?
It just amazes me the lengths that people on the pro-abortion side will go to defend those who harass and intimidate others, simply because it is against pro-lifers who they dislike. How disgusting.
well Bethany, you have to think. The tape is in the hands of pro-lifers. If a prochoicer took the video I doubt s/he would give it up to a pro-life news agency, even if it is that bad. Most likely the filmer was pro-life, or a reporter. Either way they should have at least tried to intervene.
Of course they should have but they didn’t. Why is no one concerned with the fact that this was happening at all? You keep blaming the victims and bystanders, but you seem to have no problem with the people actually doing the harassing and intimidating. Where is your outrage towards them?
Bethany, I have already said she was obviously assaulted. i am outraged at that, but unless she or the police formally press charges there isnt really anything that can be done at this point.
And the victim isnt being blamed, I’ve said that countless times. The reaction is just odd, and the fact no one stepped in is odd as well. Makes me think that if a choicer had stepped in to stop it we’d at least be able to point to the good samaritan story, though im sure the girl probably would be revolted at the idea of being helped/saved by another pro-choicer, but the fact no one stepped in, even the one filming, is just absolutely ridiculous.
And I feel like i just kinda rambled without too much sense or connections, so something may sound odd here. Still kinda dead tired from my english midterm.
Jess, from the video:
“The police just look away although this happens on public ground.”
The police are corrupt and pro-abortion..that is the only explanation for that.
And that kind of thing happens in America too..don’t think it’s limited to other countries. In fact, Marykay went to court against a cop who was actually participating in harassing and shouting at her and her friends as they protested outside of an abortion clinic. Thankfully, he eventually lost his job due to his actions.
https://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2007/12/17/
Dan, sorry I kind of put you in there with Jess. I don’t think it was really your words as much as her comments that bothered me. She was blaming the girl for her own horrible treatment.
Gosh, what a shock. Someone acting like an idiot outside a clinic, taking photos, screaming at people, threatening and intimidating them!
Why it sounds like every day at every Planned Parenthood clinic in America. If these idiots were so-called “pro-lifers”, this website would be cheering and egging them on.
Of course in order to see the irony, one has to have a functioning brain cell, so it is lost on you…
though im sure the girl probably would be revolted at the idea of being helped/saved by another pro-choicer, but the fact no one stepped in, even the one filming, is just absolutely ridiculous.
Uh, Dan, i’m pretty sure the girl would have appreciated ANYONE stepping in to help her.
I don’t blame the girl for her molestation, but even if your petrified, or trying to make a point, no matter what it is, I’d still expect some kind of reaction, even as small as saying no or stepping away. Its odd that she just stood there and took it, but perhaps she was too afraid to do anything. Still just, odd. Its obvious she was molested, and its obviously not her fault. But why she just stood there, even if she was afraid, is still a bit beyond my grasp.
I understand your confusion, Dan…but having been in a similar situation when I was a teenager, I can understand it. I had the same reaction. I didn’t know what to do or what to say, so I just stood there and took the abuse. I would have been raped if the guy who was on top of me groping me and slobbering all over me hadn’t heard voices and ran.
Bethany, Im not saying she wouldnt, but afterwards I wouldnt be surprised if she denounced the person for being pro-choice. Granted itd be ridiculous, but I could see it happening from either side, just because people are idiots as a whole.
As for the incident about MK, theres a difference between a rogue cop and cops in general. In articles I’ve seen it constantly claimed the police side with you guys, and then a week later itll be a whole different story. It can’t be both ways overall.
Personally, I think cops are on nobody’s or everybody’s side on this. Its supposed to be about the law, nothing more and nothing less, and that’s handled fairly well when you compare it to places like this.
I’m not saying those guys were going to rape her, but the intimidation factor is definitely still there, if you know what I mean.
yeah, I guess so. 3 guys around you could be as good as effective as a gun.
“Why it sounds like every day at every Planned Parenthood clinic in America. If these idiots were so-called ‘pro-lifers,’ this website would be cheering and egging them on.
Of course in order to see the irony, one has to have a functioning brain cell, so it is lost on you…”
Amused onlooker, the real irony is you fail to see your own cliched slogans. “Pro-lifers are a bunch of harrassers.” “Pro-lifers are a bunch of mind-numbed robots.” You’re a walking slogan machine.
As for the incident about MK, theres a difference between a rogue cop and cops in general. In articles I’ve seen it constantly claimed the police side with you guys, and then a week later itll be a whole different story. It can’t be both ways overall.
My point was to counter Jess’s insistence that the cops would definitely do something about the attacks if they knew something about it. The video stated that the police were overlooking the whole situation. And I don’t see why this is impossible to believe. There are corrupt police in the world. Take Utah, for instance, where that cult is…almost all of the police there are part of the cult (you know the one with the Mormons?), and will not be impartial or protect the citizens from the abuse that many endure there. It could be something very much like this. I see no reason to believe that Police are always impartial. They are just people, like we are.
I thought AT LEAST the PCer’s on this site would be offended at the intrusion on people’s human bodies in this video. After all, that IS what you’re all about right?
But alas, I AM mistaken.
You guys really belong over there you know. I bet some of you would love to get paid to do that to people who are peacefully praying.
He// no. Ill pass thanks. Would much rather counter protest, exploit the fake signs, etc. Much more fun/easier, within the law, and not invading space.
I thought AT LEAST the PCer’s on this site would be offended at the intrusion on people’s human bodies in this video. After all, that IS what you’re all about right?
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I thought that all of you “Christians” who believe in “family values” would have been shocked by the pro-life picketing at people’s homes over Christmas.
Peacefully picketing is within the law, Laura, and it is not harassment. Unzipping someone’s pants and trying to fondle them, standing in their face and screaming, and rubbing a fake penis over a girl’s body is actually intrusion. If you can’t see the difference between those things, I don’t know what’s wrong with you.
Psh, yeah right, Laura. We’re pro-choicers! We kill babies! WE DON’T DESERVE HAPPINESS!!
“an innocent person is being abused right in front of them and they stand there!”
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An innocent person is being killed inside the abortion clinic and you defend the killers??
An innocent person is killed by someone refusing to give up their organ, and you maintain their right to their organs? how disastrous!
Dan, the two situations are not analogous. In an abortion you directly and willfully kill the fetus. When one refuses to donate an organ, the person who needs the organ dies naturally, not as the result of another human being vacuuming or ripping his body parts off. The difference is in the nature of the act and the intent. God love you, my friend.
Bobby, it essentially is the same concept. The women is “donating” her uterus to the fetus. She should be able to opt out of donating. perhaps one day they’ll be some sort of technology where the fetus can be removed and put in an artificial womb and then everyone will be happy. But until that point, abortion should remain a viable option if a woman does not want to give up her body to another
I thought that all of you “Christians” who believe in “family values” would have been shocked by the pro-life picketing at people’s homes over Christmas.
I wasn’t shocked by it..I think in fact I did say I didn’t really like the whole idea when I commented on that story.
But until that point, abortion should remain a viable option if a woman does not want to give up her body to another
Hmmm, the woman wasn’t protesting the giving up of her body when she was getting it on now was she? :gasp:..but then all of a sudden..she might actually have to deal with something that doesn’t involve her 100% personal gratification. Shocking.
Dan, the are essentially different because one involves killing someone, the other does not involve killing someone. I admit that it is a conflict of interests, but in all cases under the law, the person who has more to lose trumps the rights of the other. So the question is, who has more to lose? The mother has her “bodily autonomy” to lose, but the fetus has her life to lose.
You could argue the same with the organ donor analogy. You just lose a spare kidney, but the one who needs it could die. The law doesnt say he can then take the kidnee because he/she has more to lose.
And the woman could lose more than her bodily autonomy. A birth gone wrong/awry can cause some serious issues, as can pregnancy itself. So can abortions gone wrong, but shouldnt the mother choose which risk she is willing to take?
Elizabeth the woman gives up nothing when she has sex, nor does the man. That view has always irked me and is simply ridiculous.
“Hmmm, the woman wasn’t protesting the giving up of her body when she was getting it on now was she? ”
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*LOL*…I guess her protest would be a bit late.
And a woman’s uterus is “donated” to the baby…gimme a break!! A woman’s uterus IS for the baby to develop in…it is the natural order of things…the woman does not need to “donate” it.
And a woman’s uterus is “donated” to the baby…gimme a break!! A woman’s uterus IS for the baby to develop in…it is the natural order of things…the woman does not need to “donate” it.
RSD,
I completely agree..I found that statement completely ridiculous when I read it as well.
So now should everything be natural? Ok, so no surgery, no pain killers, meds, etc. Heck, no computers, religion, books, tvs, computers, etc cuz its all not the “natural order of things”.
Whether the fetus develops in it or not, it is still the MOTHER’S organ, not the fetus’
I’m arguing a weird point of view, kinda randomly popped into my head, so i realize any and all posts about it are going to be odd, im more playing devils advocate for it than anything else, but technically it logically makes sense.
woo for technicalities
In your first case though, Dan, the supposed conflict of interests is essentially different because the PASSIVE action of not donating your organ does not CAUSE the patient to die. But in an abortion the INTENDED and CARRIED OUT action is direct killing. I wish I could discuss and elaborate on this more, but I really do have to go now. Talk with you later, Dan.
“So now should everything be natural?”
Ah, one last thing. By natural, we mean the nature of a certain thing. The NATURE and purpose of the womb is for a child. So surgery is not unnatural in that sense. Natural is not this very general sense that you say, it refers to the essence of an object. So if I break my arm, my arm can’t act according to it’s nature anymore i.e. I can’t pick up a desk anymore or something like that. So surgery, rather than being a violation of nature, helps to give back the nature and purpose of my arm. That’s a very key difference of the understanding of what we mean by nature. Now I REALLY need to go!
Later, Bobby.
I think I understand what you mean about the passive and active idea. However one could argue that either way, at least at an early stage, means certain death. So even if you remove it from the women’s womb and try to keep it alive, it will die.
Bethany,
I don not at all think this was the girls fault. I think the men who did that to her should be thrown into a dirty prison for a long, long time. I’m just shocked that no one came to her aid and I was assuming that at least the camera operator would have yelled at them or called the police. It is never a person’s fault when they are molested, and even if she keeps coming back it still wouldn’t be her fault. I just hope she brings someone with her at least to put those beasts in their place.
Dan,
Elizabeth the woman gives up nothing when she has sex, nor does the man. That view has always irked me and is simply ridiculous.
Actually, she is tacitly giving up her right to bodily autonomy. You can claim all you want that the woman didn’t consent to donate her uterus, but the fact that having sex can lead to pregnancy is pretty much first grade science. You eat too much, you get fat. You smoke, you get lung disease. You pull the trigger of a gun that’s pointed at your head, you’re gonna get a headache.
You guys are always on a about correlation and causation…well correlate this. Sex causes pregnancy. Period. The sooner you all learn this simple fact, the sooner we can move away from the argument of the unidentified alien that invades your body, to the argument that if you put the baby there, you are responsible for it…
Just admit it…you had your fun, you screwed up and now you don’t want to pay the price. I can respect that. At least it’s honest. But to imply that these babies somehow magically appear through no fault of the consenting parties is really deceitful.
Dan, your arguments make no sense at all. And I pray that some day you’ll see the light. I don’t mean to sound patronizing but you are still very young and I know you think you know it all. We all knew it all at your age.
You are rationalizing something that has no reason. Therefore, all your arguments fall short.
Jess, thank you for clarifying…it makes me feel a lot better about your position.
You know I would never condone that type of violence against women.
On that note my boyfriend told me last night I am anti-man.
No.
But if you think about it, if it wasn’t for men we wouldn’t have abortion then we could all be friends.
As for the people in this video…
What if you didn’t know that these were pro choicers and pro lifers…what if you just saw these videos with the sound turned off and no explanations. The only information you had was that the “offenders” were getting away with their behavior because the owner of the “shop” had friends high up in the police force and if the “victims” said or did anything, they would be the ones that went to jail…
“if the “victims” said or did anything, they would be the ones that went to jail…”
Really? Where did you hear that?
And you know how I feel about people like that.
“But if you think about it, if it wasn’t for men we wouldn’t have abortion then we could all be friends.”
If it weren’t for men, or to be more specific, a certain man, you wouldn’t be here!
My Dad’s going through a weird mid-life crisis. He’s been using more hair products then I have.
“You pull the trigger of a gun that’s pointed at your head, you’re gonna get a headache.”
@MK: ROTFLOL. That made me giggle just a wee bit. :D
At 41 second and !:15 it shows that the man who you will see standing next to the girl who is being molested is a pro-life protester. Also after getting to watch the video with English translation I am pretty sure the camera man is pro-life. That’s what makes me so angry. They did nothing to help her.
You eat too much, you get fat. You smoke, you get lung disease. You pull the trigger of a gun that’s pointed at your head, you’re gonna get a headache.
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…And if you have obesity, lung disease or a gunshot wound, you can always seek medical intervention to make the condition go away – same as unwanted pregnancy.
“You eat too much, you get fat.”
OMG! That’s what I said about the woman the police officer was insulting by saying she’s fat and everyone hated me for it!
Remember I said the whole thing about gluttony being one of the seven deadly sins?
Jess, there’s a difference in stating something objectively (ie. if one eats too much, they will get fat), and saying, “Well if you wouldn’t eat so much you wouldn’t be such a big fat cow!”
Can you honestly not see the difference? One implies that you judge them, and are repulsed by them for the fact that they’re fat. The other does not imply anything. It merely is an objective, observable fact.
I have been overweight before, and I KNOW how bad it hurts for someone to come to you and say, “you sure have gained weight!” as though I didn’t already know. You probably haven’t had to deal with that before, Jess, so you may not be able to empathize.
And gluttony is not one of the 7 deadly sins.. I know you probably said it with the intention of jest, but still.
Kristen,
first: this isnt how I truly view abortion, it just sorta popped into my head and I figured I’d give it a shot to argue from that point of view. I like seeing/arguing from/etc other points of view. I feel like it keeps my mind open and keeps me honest with myself.
second: simply saying you are going to dismiss my arguments (or at least, thats what it seems like your saying, my apologies if I’m misinterpreting) doesn’t exactly make me want to pay too close attention to your own. Dismissing gets people nowhere, it’s discussion that’s key. ; )
On that note my boyfriend told me last night I am anti-man.
No.
But if you think about it, if it wasn’t for men we wouldn’t have abortion then we could all be friends.
Jess, was that a joke or do you really mean that?
Listed in the same order used by both Pope Gregory the Great in the 6th Century AD, and later by Dante Alighieri in his epic poem The Divine Comedy, the seven deadly sins are as follows: Luxuria (extravagance, later lust), Gula (gluttony), Avaritia (greed), Acedia (sloth), Ira (wrath, later anger), Invidia (envy), and Superbia (pride). Each of the seven deadly sins has an opposite among the corresponding seven holy virtues (sometimes also referred to as the contrary virtues). In parallel order to the sins they oppose, the seven holy virtues are chastity, abstinence, temperance, diligence, patience, kindness, and humility.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins
Heh, my english teacher last year refreshed the seven deadly sins last year during the unit for the scarlet letter and gave me the nice little pneumonic device LEGPAWS to remember them.
Wait…that must be a Catholic thing (I’m not familiar with anything like that). My mistake. I thought you were referring to the abominations listed in Proverbs 6:16-19.
Jess, @ your 5:02 comment (sorry, missed it before). It appears that you’re right…and if so, that is really weird, I must admit. Watching it again, I am wondering why he didn’t at least say something. That is very odd indeed.
I wonder if it has gotten so common for them to be treated like that, that they come expecting it now? Maybe that is why they all seem to stand there and just take it.
But I definitely agree with you…seeing him standing there beside her, not doing anything while that other guy is doing such awful things, really makes me wonder.
Bethany, i think it is a catholic thing. I remember learning about that stuff way back when. Any of those sins left unrepented means a one way ticket to hell, or something along those lines.
Yes, the seven deadly sins are listed in the Catechism of the Catholic church, but I wouldn’t necessarily consider them a “Catholic” thing. All those sins are considered grave matter i.e. if one commits them with full knowledge and full consent of the will, then they commit a mortal sin, and as Dan said, would go to hell if they die unrepentant of them.
@Bobby: I started calc-based physics this semester.
*cries*
One of my lab problems discussed using calculus and messing ’round with conservation of energy problems (1/2mv^2=KE and Ue=mgy). I had nooooooo idear how to do that problem. Just thought I’d join in with Dan and whine about the evilz of Calculus. :-p
How is your lovely wee lass?
Oh golly! Sorry to hear that, Rae. I don’t know any physics. I wish I could help… I’m currently holding the little angel. She was just screaming her head off uncontrollably but has ceased for the time being. Being a dad is the best! God love you Rae.
Bethany,
Gluttony is one of the deadly sins. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins
Also I was joking about not needing men. We need them as much as they need us.
About the overweight thing, it’s just that everyone seemed to jump on me because they said it is medical, and sometimes not based on how much you eat. I just don’t think people take them (the deadly sins) as serious as we should.
Also I’m glad you noticed that in the video. That was why I was getting so upset.
@Bobby: Why was she screaming her head off? Was she just being cantankerous? How old is she now?
My friend told me this little phrase that I thought was funny: Biology is chemistry, chemistry is physics, physics is calculus, and calculus is evil.” :-p
Essentially though, physics is calculus. The derivative of distance vs. time curve is velocity. The derivative of velocity is acceleration. The derivative of acceleration is jerk. I’m not sure how it applies otherwise as I never really understood integrals…
Awww…Gianna is SO cute, Bobby!
@Bobby,
Your daughter looks so swweeeeeeeeeeeet!
Enjoy these wonderful baby times, they go by so fast!
Those pro-lifers in the video have a lot of patience.
I’ll have to look that place up for some silent prayer When I go to Austria. Those hoodlums wouldn’t enjoy getting in my space like that.
Another view point…
One thing is clear is that these pro lifers are willing to be humiliated for the greater evil of abortion, than to fight for their own rights. The greater the humiliation… then the greater the message is being proclaimed that life is worth suffering for. Abortion is worth suffering for.
It seems to me that these pro lifers are offering up their sufferings and prayers for the purpose of redemption. This is the model that Christ gives his disciples. Christ suffered the worst humiliation on the cross so that He could save all mankind. Their message they proclaim is clear… abortion is worth suffering for. (Col 1:24)
I am deeply appalled at the abuse that is so obviously on display in these videos. I am also appalled that other decent human beings could view the same clips and actually find fault with the pro-lifers. If you were watching video clips of scenes of peaceful civil rights activists in the 60’s being physically abused while police stood by, you would acclaim them for their heroic self-control. It is called non-violence in the face of a violent infringement. This is what those who peacefully stand up for what is right sometimes have to do when the police force will not protect them, in order to expose to the public the true depth of depravity of those who are against them.
Let’s not forget, the abortionist was claiming that it was the pro-lifers who were abusing the clinic employees. This is an obvious lie.
Jess, you are puzzled about why the young woman being abused was not assisted. You don’t have to believe me, but I am personally certain that this is a regular, if not daily, occurrence. Why do I say this? Because I have personally seen (I have been among those praying peacefully outside an abortion clinic on a public sidewalk) “clinic escorts” on the streets at American Planned Parenthood centers, who are there for the specific purpose of harassing the peaceful pro-life witnesses. Some of them take enjoyment at calling names and yelling and insulting and mocking the faith of the pro-lifers, who quietly ignore them like you see in this video. However, I have never seen abuse this bad in the United States.
The particular situation “on the ground” at any given abortion mill that has regular pro-life witnesses varies considerably from one to the next. In some places, the police are very fair and protect the pro-lifers from abuse when the pro-abortion “escorts” go over the line with their intimidation. In other places, the police are themselves hostile to the pro-lifers and stand by doing nothing while serious abuse of docile pro-lifers is taking place in front of them.
In situations like this where the local police are themselves hostile to pro-lifers, the pro-lifers know from experience that if they are going to be present there at all, they have to be docile and do nothing to protect themselves. Why? Because the very instant that any pro-lifer does anything in self-defense against the abuse, the “escort” will cry to high heaven about how they are being attacked and the police will rush in and arrest the pro-lifer and cart him or her off to jail. This happens here in the United States.
So, the heroic witnesses to the dignity of life in these video clips do not react because the second they did, they would be arrested for harassment or assault. Yes, this is absurdly unjust, but this is what happens. You don’t have to believe me, but I doubt you have been around many pro-life prayer witnesses outside of operating abortion mills. Spend some time doing this on Saturday mornings at three or four abortion mills, and observe the typical disrespect and disdain with which pro-lifers are treated, and then you will not find it hard to believe the inhumane scenes you see in these video clips. The level of abuse is worse than what is typical here in the U.S., but the disdain and utter lack of basic human respect for another human being that is behind it is not.
If you don’t think human beings who are sworn to protect others (such as the police) can stand by and do nothing while this sort of thing happens, perhaps you should recall the civil rights movement here in the U.S. only some 45 years ago. There was at least one notorious occasion at a peaceful street demonstration in the south where not only did the police not assist, but they actually released, by order of the police commissioner Bull Connor, attack dogs against defenseless non-violent demonstrators.
The entire goal of this sort of abuse heaped on pro-life prayer warriors by pro-choice goons is to get them to leave. If the pro-lifers leave, the goons win because then there is no one left to pray and no one to speak to women going into the clinic about their real options. Also, the abortionist makes more money because fewer women will be turned around from going in by speaking to a pro-lifer (remember the goons are paid thugs of the abortionist–he must be getting his money’s worth out of them). If the pro-lifers react, they end up in jail, and again, the goons win. It is a very deadly game, played out day after day, while the comfortable and soulless European citizenry walks by without any care.
Can you see that this is the sort of behavior that the lies and slogans of the pro-choice movement about pro-lifers can eventually lead to? The society becomes so convinced by repeated lies and slogans of how supposedly awful and heinous the pro-lifers are (without any firsthand experience), that when they finally see them on the street they are blind to the reality of the pro-lifer’s peaceful non-violence and instead actually find amusement in seeing them abused (like Dan above).
I was wondering how far down I’d have to scroll to find the answer to why these pro-lifers acted as they did in this video.
The “Brothers” thankfully gave the perfect explanation. You guys rock !
I can’t believe none of the regular Christian posters on here didn’t pounce on this at the beginning.
Wouldn’t Jesus himself have done the same thing as these pro-lifers? Li’ll answer that: “Uh…YEAH”. !!!
oops, sorry for the typo…Meant to say, “I’ll answer that…”
Laura,
…And if you have obesity, lung disease or a gunshot wound, you can always seek medical intervention to make the condition go away – same as unwanted pregnancy.
But what you can’t do is claim that you didn’t “consent” to the repurcussions.
Let’s see…medical intervention for obesity? Abstain from overeating. Medical intervention for lung disease? Abstain from smoking. Medical intervention for headaches? Abstain from pointing loaded guns at your head.
Too late? You’re already fat? Put a rubberband around you stomach or staple it…hmmmmm…a little extreme. Perhaps more education would help. If only people knew and understood that eating 6 chocolate cakes a day made you fat. If we tell them and show them the tricks of bulimia, we could most definitely lower the occurrences of obesity. They should be able to continue eating 3 quarter pounders at a sitting, and not have to hear about how it’s their fault…they DID NOT consent to getting fat!
Smoking? Well, you can remove their lungs. Of course it’s difficult to breathe when you don’t have lungs, but it’s not as if it’s their fault they got lung cancer. They didn’t consent to lung cancer. They only consented to smoking! How dare that cancer use their organs. What? You can’t remove it?!?!?! Ridiculous! I have my rights! I demand a lung abortion! Who are you to tell me that I have to live/die with lung cancer. I should be able to smoke and not suffer from lung disease and you can’t tell me otherwise!!!!
Headache? Hey, guns are legal! Just because I pulled the trigger doesn’t mean I consented to splashing my brains across that wall. Now I demand that you scoop them up and put them back in my head! I have my rights! What we need is more education! That way I can learn how to point a loaded gun at my head, pull the trigger but NOT blow my brains out…
Exactly what medical procedures are we talking about that don’t involve ceasing the behavior that got us there in the first place?
Bro. Dominic, welcome! To you and Bro. Francis, thanks so much for your insights on this topic. Your analogy to peaceful civil rights protesters of the 60s is perfect.
Sorry if I steal their opportunity for grace by punching one of those goons upside the head :\
Brothers Dominic and Francis,
Hey Ho and hello,
I said something similar way up there, but you people stay up too late for me…
And of course, you both said it so much better than I…
It says right there in the video that the Doctor has friends “high up” in the police department. When I watched the video, I kept thinking that I might have taken the abuse for the afternoon, but I didn’t think I could go back…these guys are heroes.
And the next time we complain about living in the US we would do well to remember how blessed we are. Abuse like that would not be stood for.
At the March, Judie Brown and Dawn Eden were saying that in England, you can get thrown in jail just for speaking out. It’s considered a hate crime now, to say that abortion is morally wrong.
But I thank you also brothers for your words of wisdom. God has obviously graced you with great humility and restraint.
The peace of Jesus be with you always.
Br Francis Jr, great post…thank you!
Bethany,Gluttony is one of the deadly sins. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins
Also I was joking about not needing men. We need them as much as they need us.
About the overweight thing, it’s just that everyone seemed to jump on me because they said it is medical, and sometimes not based on how much you eat. I just don’t think people take them (the deadly sins) as serious as we should.Also I’m glad you noticed that in the video. That was why I was getting so upset.
Ok, Jess. About the 7 deadly sins. You say you are concerned with people not being so serious about them as they should…however, you don’t have a problem with abortion. This doesn’t compute.
Do you not see that the root of abortion lies within these deadly sins?
Lust, wanting to fulfill your own desires so badly that you would value your gratification over the life of a human being.
greed, wanting to keep your body to yourself, for your own pleasure, and to kill any human being who is conceived within it by your own actions.
sloth, being too lazy or too unwilling to go through a pregnancy to allow your innocent child to live. Waiting 9 months is too much work, patience, etc for a sloth.
and pride: Thinking that you are worth more, have more value, than the human being you are carrying in your womb.
Hey Rae. Yeah, she was just being cantankerous. It happens. Now you mentioned the physical explanations for the first, second, and third derivatives of a time function. Did you know that the fourth, fifth, and sixth derivatives are snap, crackle, and pop? I kid you not!
Am finally caught up reading comments! Thank you Br. Dominic and Br. Francis J. for your posts. It is hard to believe that prolifers would “just stand there and take it” but I love that you said
“abortion is worth suffering for.”
You have educated many!!
second: simply saying you are going to dismiss my arguments (or at least, thats what it seems like your saying, my apologies if I’m misinterpreting) doesn’t exactly make me want to pay too close attention to your own. Dismissing gets people nowhere, it’s discussion that’s key. ; )
Posted by: Dan at January 25, 2008 5:44 PM
Dan, I can’t have a discussion based on an argument that, by your own admission, is baseless.
Like MK said just admit that you had your fun and don’t want to pay the consequences. I don’t agree but I can understand that. Even the arguments about “bodily autonomy” are silly because another body is involved. Adoption is a reasonable alternative if you don’t want the responsibility of keeping a child.
@Bobby: That’s awesome! So Rice Krispies are secretly calculus? My little brother ate math!
I’m done being silly now. :)
Mwahaha!
Bethany,
I am sorry for what you have gone through. My heart was aching when I read that. Hugs to you.
Here is another thought about why the pro-lifers in these videos heroically remain docile. Their goal is to be there for the unborn babies and their mothers, ultimately to reduce and put a stop to abortions. If they reacted with force to the violence and abuse being heaped upon them, it would create a spectacle that would ruin future opportunities to be there for the babies and the mom’s. So they exhibit meekness (not unlike the totally innocent Jesus being abused and taunted by Roman goons before He was crucified) so that they can continue to be there selflessly, on behalf of others.
I guarantee you that the day the pro-lifers reacted with proportionate and reasonable physical force to defend themselves against what they are suffering (which someone might be able to ague would be justified as a matter of self-defense), the abortionist and his goons would scream bloody murder to the press about the “violent” pro-lifers and how horrible it is that the innocent pro-choicers are being attacked by those mean and horrible, terrorist “anti-abortionists.” They would unjustly accuse the pro-lifers of being the aggressors and the ones instigating violence. It is a common tactic used by pro-choicers.
The press would completely believe this and press reports would soon appear everywhere about the violent uprising at the abortion clinic by pro-lifers against harmless champions of women’s rights. It would be complete lies, but it would also cause tremendous harm to the public reputation of the pro-life cause.
There is a lot at stake here. If they reacted in ways that many people would think they should, they would jeopardize their entire reason for being there–to provide a peaceful, loving witness on behalf of the dignity and value of all human life.
I also guarantee you that even as the pathetic pro-choice goons are abusing them, the pro-lifers are praying for them and asking Christ to forgive them. This is the face of true selfless heroism in the face of grave injustice. The pro-lifers are not thinking about themselves and their own rights. They are thinking of others–unborn children and their mothers, and all who are caught up in the falsehoods and violent ethos of the pro-choice mindset.
Br Francis, that makes sense, especially when you consider the fact that there were pro-abortionists standing out there waiting to capture pictures which they could twist as making the pro-lifers out to be horrible. If the pro-lifers had lashed back out, then “snap” a picture could be taken, which the pro-abortionists could use to say, “Look at what those awful pro-lifers are doing to the innocent pro-choicer”.
Carla, thank you so much for the kind words. (hugs)
Bethany, that is exactly right. This method is used here in the U.S. by the pro-choice side whenever they possibly can. Which, fortunately because of the patience and meekness of most pro-lifers, is not very often. But it only takes one misleading photo of a pro-lifer standing up for himself against a pro-choice abuser to do great harm to the pro-life reputation. The press is eager to plaster, totally out of context, anything that even remotely looks incriminating of pro-lifers all over the media, without asking questions or digging into what really happened.
Remember the posts Jill put up a few weeks back about the police in Aurora sternly inquiring of a man walking his baby in a stroller about what he was doing, as though he had better not be praying on a public street?
Many pro-lifers silently endure abuse all over the world, day after day, and are then themselves accused of being violent and hateful. It is par for the course in what really goes on in the pro-life movement at the ground level. And the mainstream media has no interest in letting the truth about this get out. Thank goodness there are now alternative ways of shining the light of truth on such situations.
Violent prochoicers???? Tell that to these people…
(CNN) — The widow of a Birmingham, Alabama, police officer denounced confessed bomber Eric Rudolph as a “monster” Monday after a federal judge sentenced him to life in prison for the 1998 blast that killed her husband.
Sorry Laura,
Just thought I’d beat you to the punch…
Yes, MK. Isn’t it something, though, how the pro-choice side only has a few, notorious examples (such as Eric Rudolph, who, from what I have seen on this, was a lone fanatic acting on his own) of pro-life violence that they keep having to repeat over and over and over like a broken record? They have little to go on when they try to paint the pro-lifers as violent–this is why the same few events get mentioned repeatedly ad nauseam.
This is because there are so few real instances of significant pro-life violence (and of course, genuine pro-lifers deny that someone like Rudolph is pro-life at all, for obvious reasons). The press uncritically gobbles up the mantras of the pro-abortion groups about how supposedly hateful a typical pro-lifer is, without being concerned to find out the real truth.
And this is why the pro-life side has to be so extremely careful not to do the slightest thing that can be twisted out of context and used as propaganda against them. The pro-choice side is eager to grab anything they possibly can, no matter how biased and unjust–as long as the pro-lifers can be made to appear bad–to smear all over the media to try to paint the pro-lifers in a negative light.
Remember the brutal beating and murder in 1955 of the black teenage boy, Emmett Till, for supposedly looking at a white woman the wrong way? Yes, this 14 year old boy, so the racists apparently thought, had it coming to him. It was his fault. Similarly, the worse of the pro-choice activists seem to believe that pro-lifers have it coming to them when they are treated with violent abuse. (Perhaps like the goons in these video clips?) The police who stand by doing nothing do so because, on some level, they think the pro-lifers have it coming to them. Like Bull Connor thought peaceful civil rights activists deserved fire hoses and police dogs being set upon them.
Br.Francis,
I so loved your comparison to Jesus during the scourging of the pillar. Sometimes words aren’t necessary. How much further do the prayers of those volunteers reach than ours? And you are right…their prayers were most likely as much for their accusers as for the babies in the clinic…
“The society becomes so convinced by repeated lies and slogans of how supposedly awful and heinous the pro-lifers are (without any firsthand experience), ”
You are under the wrong impression that the majority of pro-lifers are nice people, like you and mk and Bethany. That is not true from my first hand experience. Most pro-lifers I know are quick to scream “Murdering Whore!” at anyone who is pro-choice, regardless of whether or not they have even ever had sex. They tend to have elitist attitudes and be very closed minded. They don’t care about the woman or the child, just that people who have sex are as miserable as possible. Their moral indignation comes off as envy with a halo. Do you get what I’m saying? They are also very hypocritical.
I know, they’re my family.
Bethany,
I don’t know, that seems like a stretch. You have some good points but I’ll have to think about it. I’ll get back to you though.
Jess, I’m sorry that this is your situation. Most pro-lifers I know are not like that.
yea right Jess. So because your familt does that it means the majority of pro-lifers do it?
nice try. another pro-abort liar.
Well actually yes, the majority of pro-lifers I know do do this. You are not me, and do not know the people I know. I said the pro-lifers I know on this blog were nice. I get called a pro-abortion liar.
On second thought the majority of pro-lifers on this board aren’t very nice either.
Demonic deathscorts…as though there is any other kind. The thirst for innocent blood is demonic, so it will infuse any of their activities…having first shut down any functioning brain cells they may have previously possessed. Satan cannot create anything; he is insanely jealous of God in this respect, and that is one reason why he tries to “top” God by destroying and defiling what God alone can create. It’s the ultimate exercise in futility; Satan and all his minions (like Fiala and his goons and all their ilk/sympathizers) will ultimately answer to God and God alone. Satan and all his demons will have their place in the lake of eternal fire created FOR THEM, NOT FOR HUMAN SOULS; but the souls of Fiala & co. will have a place there as well if they do not fully repent of their sins. Satan and his demons don’t have bodies of their own, so they seek souls they can devour and then move into, inhabit, posess and work through the shells of bodies whose souls they’ve corrupted and destroyed.
I have spent many hours on the streets in front of abortion mills on the prolife side over a period of about 15 years, and I have NEVER seen any prolifer sexually molest anyone, or subject anyone to the kind of abuse, humiliation; but brazenness, viciousness, vulgarity, arrogance and brutality are sooooooooooooo typical of the vacant souled predators who either are or support abortion profiteers.
Check out abortionviolence.com for some more information on this.
Fiala is no more a real doctor than he is a Christian. He is a lying, cruel, heartless, misogynistic, red-fanged, murdering scumbag who thinks everyone deserves to be his prey.
A few words to pro-lifers everywhere: carry the strongest pepper spray you can find, and BRING UP THE KNEE TO THE CROTCH OF THESE BASTARDS (Illegitimate is as illegitimate does, and nothing Fiala or his goons have done here is legitimate), in pure self-defense. Bullies are always cowards, and cowards can’t stand being stood up to. Jesus, you will recall, told his followers to carry arms for self-defense. He also said to rejoice when you are persecuted for righteousness’ sake (and, yes, it is righteous to try to intervene on behalf of endangered innocent human life; the pro-aborts will try to place your efforts on a par with the murdering scum you are trying to protect the babies and their moms from, but anyone with a functioning brain cell and a shred of integrity knows good and well that if the pro-aborts’ life were endangered, (s)he would want protection even if it involved lethal force.)..Emily Ly(ing)ons is proof of this, and I’ve never yet met a proabort who qualifies as an exception to the rule she exemplifies.
These people have the stupidity and nerve to call the preborn “parasites”, even though it is the abortion profiteers who thrive on sucking the VITAL juices out of their hosts, the unborn.
Ever see a mistletoe plant that had the capacity to, within a few months, live independently of the tree it preys on? Most babies can, within a few months, live outside the womb, and eventually become the same level of being as their parents, unlike real parasites — in fact, they need to in order to survive; but few bloodsucking proaborts seem capable of separating themselves from the blood of innocents…
I think the police are wimps and cowards, probably bought off & corrupted with Fiala’s bloodmoney; hence they are as much the antithesis of their profession as Fiala is, and as the 9-11 terrorists were to all legitimate airplane pilots. They are simply abusing their positions to harm (actively or passively) innocent people who put them to shame by doing what they should be doing, protecting & serving & preserving innocent human life, instead of sucking it out of others.
Let’s please remember that every human being has value and dignity as a child of God even if they do not recognize this of themselves or of others–even those who may be deeply enmeshed in grave sin.
When we pro-lifers speak about those opposed to us, I think we should try to distinguish between speaking about what they do and what they support, and speaking about them as persons. For as persons, they, as are we, and every person, are beloved children of God for whom Christ died. While their actions and their positions may merit the strongest criticism, as fellow human beings, they do not deserve our scorn but rather our love. And not a condescending pseudo-love, but the real thing. Did Christ hate those who nailed Him to the cross? And who are we called to imitate?
I hope and pray that every pro-abortion person ultimately comes to know the love of Jesus Christ in a profoundly personal, life-changing way, both in this life, and in the next. We Christians are supposed to be the face of Christ for others. If others cannot see Jesus in us, then in whom are they to see Him?
Wachet, I respectfully suggest, please tone down what seems to be your personal animosity toward those whom Christ loves every bit as He loves you, even as they wrongly persecute His children.
I see Jesus in any shepherd who defends his sheep from wolves; that is what real ones do.
I spoke the hard truth as to what caricatures of legitimate professionals and humans their sin has made of them; and you have asked me to be “more Christ-like”; the REAL Christ called certain people foxes, white-washed sepulchres, fools, and other unflattering things ACCORDING TO THEIR BEHAVIOR IN ORDER TO WAKE THEM UP TO SEE THE CARICATURES OF DIVINELY ORDAINED HUMANITY SIN HAD MADE OF THEM. I don’t have a problem with that; and he still told His disciples that if any of them did not own a sword, to sell their cloak and buy one. None of this was inconsistent with love, truth, or mercy.
Worship someone/something less if you wish; I’m sure I can’t stop you, but I will not join you.
Jess, also, I know this is easier said than done, but please do not take too harshly any uncharitable words that some here have directed toward you. I believe I can also say that venues such as this tend to attract, among others, a disproportionate number of those–on both sides of an issue–who have a high propensity to launch into personal attack mode.
So, may I suggest that any uncharitableness displayed here does not necessarily represent pro-lifers as a whole. Those who comment on blogs are only a small subset of the overall pro-life world (and this is probably true for blogs covering any issue).
to “Br. Francis”,
I did not specifically address any remarks to Jess; they were addressed to certain attitudes and actions, their effects on those who adopt them and others, and their ultimate source.
I am not your property, and if I feel that apologies are in order to any particular individual, I am quite capable of making them myself; I do not need your “assistance”, or the impotent “luv” of your “Jesus”. The love of the Real One is quite enough for me, thank you so much!
“Worship someone/something less if you wish; I’m sure I can’t stop you, but I will not join you.”
Wachet auf, do you have the gift of reading souls? You seem to presume you can read mine. Just wondering. That’s pretty neat if you do. However, I seriously doubt that you do.
There is a huge contrast between meekness and hostility, and also between hostility and authentic fortitude. We are called to be both meek and courageous. We are never called to be hostile (to hate).
Some cannot see the difference between hostility toward others (which is sinful), and fortitude (which is a virtue). Christ was a man of both supreme meekness (e.g. when He was being mocked as He was crowned with thorns) and supreme fortitude (e.g. when He threw the money changers out of the temple); He was never a man of hatred.
Brother Francis,
It is providence that you speak of us ALL as being children of God…Yesterday(?) someone asked me if I was related to Doug and I said that we are all related as we are all sons and daughters of God and brothers and sisters in Christ.
There was some question as to whether we are all brothers and sisters or whether one must be “baptized” in order to be called “family”…
Is this a protestant/catholic distinction. I have always believed that all human beings are His children as they were created in His image out of love…those of us lucky enough to recognize the fact are just graced, but certainly not more “in the family”…Am I wrong?
Wauchet Auf,
(interesting name by the way…)I am not your property, and if I feel that apologies are in order to any particular individual, I am quite capable of making them myself;
Don’t you think that considering this thread has been about the “face” that prolifers present, it was prudent of Br. Francis to point out that not all of us feel the same as you do? We’re trying to tell Erin that not every prolifer is rude or condescending and 10 seconds later she’s get hit with “nice try. another pro-abort liar” and then your two posts. While no one is saying that you must feel as we do, I also think it wise to make sure that people like Erin realize that not all of us feel as you do…
Hi MK,
“I have always believed that all human beings are His children as they were created in His image out of love.”
Yes, all human beings are created by God in His image out of love. This is why any human beings exist at all. (cf. Gen 1:26-27).
But there are two senses to speaking of mankind as God’s children. There is a generic sense, in which all human beings, as created by God, are His children. But then, there is a more explicit sense, in which being a child of God is synonymous with being saved–being a citizen of the kingdom of heaven. (cf. Eph 1:5-6; Rom 8:15; Gal 3:25-7) And in Catholic teaching, one is saved through the grace of faith, which is initially given in baptism, and is meant to grow through ongoing conversion until death.
Br. Francis:
These were the actual comments made on a previous thread:
Mk said: Yes, we are all related. We are all the children of God and the brothers and sisters of Jesus. Therefore they are my family.
I said: To say that we are all God
I Corinthians 15:1-4
“Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”
Now that’s Paul’s Gospel, and our Gospel and we must believe that for our salvation. So this is the primary thing, it supersedes anything else in all of Christendom. Then of course other things follow in their rightful place. Naturally we are to grow in grace. We are to grow in knowledge of the Word. We are to grow in our works and our activities for the Lord’s business. Absolutely we’re to be givers, and to be witnesses, and this is why we’re left here. Because otherwise, would to God, that the moment that we’re saved, He’d take us out of here. It would be far better. When Paul said that after seeing the things in glory that eyes have not seen, nor ears heard, the things that were prepared for those that love Him, I have to think we’ve got some glorious things awaiting us. It’s going to be so glorious. Joy unspeakable, righteousness, music (I think), like mortal ear has never heard and it’s all awaiting us once we enter into His presence.
Les Feldick
Most pro-lifers I know are quick to scream “Murdering Whore!” at anyone who is pro-choice, regardless of whether or not they have even ever had sex. They tend to have elitist attitudes and be very closed minded. They don’t care about the woman or the child, just that people who have sex are as miserable as possible. Their moral indignation comes off as envy with a halo. Do you get what I’m saying? They are also very hypocritical.
I am sorry you really think that way about the majority of pro-lifers, Jess. All the ones I meet are very nice and friendly, and even on here…are capable of engaging in heated debate in a civil manner. Granted it can get snippy at times..but we’re all human. And it is an emotional topic so sometimes mean words can get exchanged.
Unfortunatly, there are many of Catholics who are permissive to no end, who excuse lies and bad behavoir. Why do you think there are so many pro-abort Cathloics? The US Congress is filled them. This is no accident. There are too few of real Catholic leaders in our country today, this is because they are afraid of “offending” the other side instead being direct with the Truth.
Jasper,
Whatever way God is leading you to reach out to people, do it….He is NEVER wrong.
…and their zeal to bow down to pro-aborts they risk losing good people on their own side who really want to make a difference and strengthen their pro-life stance….this is from a Catholic cardinal a year ago! read this nonsense:
#########
The NBC interviewer, David Ushery, asked for the Cardinal’s response to the pro-abortion stance of three of the most prominent politicians in New York, presidential hopefuls Hillary Clinton and Rudolph Giuliani, and ex-governor of New York George Pataki.
Cardinal Egan responded, “They’re all friends of mine.”
“Governor Pataki’s a friend of mine, Mayor Giuliani’s a friend of mine, Senator Clinton is a friend of mine and whomever else you want to name.”
The Cardinal added, “I think I’m a good friend of all three of these people, whom you’ve mentioned or whom I’ve mentioned. And I wish them all the best, and they’ve been very good to us. And I will vote, I assure you, right here in the New York, and that will be one vote. I won’t ask you to vote the way I think you ought to vote.”
###########
A Catholic who maintains a popular weblog from Los Angeles under the name “Quintero,” often focuses on the apparent complicity of some Catholic leaders in what he calls the “abortion establishment.”
He writes in response to Cardinal Egan’s interview, that Catholic priests and bishops need to “sever ties with their buddies in the abortion establishment,” or risk losing all credibility with their flock.
Quintero succinctly sums up the tone of hundreds of comments recorded all over the Catholic internet world: “When people see Cardinals, bishops and priests helping pro-abortion politicians, will they take that as a pro-life message or a pro-abortion message? ?[T]he bishops need to excommunicate the Catholic pro-aborts, not mingle with them!”
Jasper,
I’m wondering what is the underlying point of your last post? Surely, you don’t think it would be hard to identify non-Catholic Christian leaders in America who speak weakly about or even ignore the abortion genocide, do you?
Given that there are 64 million Catholics in the United States, and that we make up 22% of the entire U.S. population, the fact that you can find some that are poor examples (including some of the 273 active bishops and cardinals) of what any Christian should aspire to be in standing up for the least of our brethren is not exactly surprising.
What are you intending here? I hope it is something other than mere Catholic bashing. We could trade anecdotes all day of individual Catholic and Protestant leaders who have abysmal records on fighting abortion. Like ping-pong. What would this prove other than what any reasonably mature Christian should already know? Namely, that Christian leaders, of all stripes, have always included the very weak right alongside the bold and heroic. Remember Judas?
Your post doesn’t amount to contributing much other than to reiterate that Catholics (as all Christians) generally are human beings–with the inevitable result that some are good, some bad, some in-between. And Christian leaders are varied in this way just as everyone else on the planet is. Are you implying that all of the Christian leaders in your own church or denomination are perfect examples of Christ-like leadership? Every one? Really, now.
Now, before I am accused of being all wishy-washy, please note well that I don’t mean to suggest in any way with this comment that poor Christian leadership (Catholic or non-Catholic) is not a very serious matter and that it can be gravely harmful to society. It is indeed a very serious matter and we should do all we can to encourage heroic, saintly leadership in our churches (beginning with becoming better Christians ourselves). But I don’t see what relevance this issue has to this particular thread, or to this blog, since struggling for great leaders has and always will be an ongoing issue for all Christian communities. All Church bodies have this in common. So why speak as though this is a unique problem to Catholics?
We, as Christians who share our faith in Jesus Christ–though we have very serious differences within our shared faith not to-be-glossed-over–should be above playing games with each other of, “My leaders are better than your leaders; Naa Naa.” Don’t you think? Is there a witness we are called to present together to the world, as Catholics and non-Catholic Christians; together?
Jess,
My first experience with pro life activist were with those “elitist attitudes and be very closed minded”, which you described so well. I lived across from an abortion mill and these militant groups came out in their military greens and displayed actions that were indescribable and ineffective to the cause.
It is unfortunate that this was your experience. Please also know that there are peaceful pro life groups that desire to pray and offer their sufferings for the healing of those getting abortions and for an end to all abortions. Many Pro lifers also have to offer their prayers and sufferings for those who misrepresent the pro life cause. So I understand your objection toward the militant pro life groups.
Despite these militant prolife group, we still have to decide on which is the greater evil. The greater evil is the killing of another human life.
So why do we pro lifers go out in the mist of all this evil, humilation and suffering to pray before abortion clinics. If you understood that you were made in the image and likness of God, then you are left with this conclusion…that our final end is to be with God. “Man’s life comes from God; it is his gift, his image and imprint, a sharing in his breath of life. God therefore is the sole Lord of this life: man cannot do with it as he wills” (Evangelium Vitae). The more we seek God the more we see that He loves us, because God is love and we share in His action when we love and care for one another (not lustfully but sacrificially).
The more we want to grow closer to God, then the more we have to grow closer to our neighbor. Christ redefines our neighbor to include, “the hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison” (Matt 25.44).
We should protect life on all levels from conception to death. So why are we opposing abortions? If we do not protect life on the level of conception then the definition of what it means to be human will be arbitrary and the human life will no longer be sacred. I, myself can not choose to live blindly to my neighbor who is suffering or who is choosing to do harm to oneself, without feeling empathy. So we are called to share in each other’s suffering, even if that means standing outside an abortion mill because of those who are inside are suffering.
To wachet auf:
Christ redefined many things in the Gospels…including whom he calls His family. Christ family are those who “hear his word and does them” and those who call themselves his disciples. “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master…”(matt 10:24). Christ came to those who need a physician, to add to his family, so his disciples should do the same. (Mark 2:17)
Christ comes into the world not to exclude but seek for His lost sheep. God is calling many people to be his sons and daughters. And without His grace and mercy we should not be so bold to determine who is in His family and who is not. Everyday we have the ability to choose Him or reject Him. This family line is not as black and white as we would like to think. Many are still in the process of becoming his disciples. No one follows his words perfectly, which is why we need His mercy and grace to help us.
Just to be clear. I am as revolted by the apparent political game-playing of Cardinal Egan evidenced above as anyone. OK. This is not good, to say the least. But, shouldn’t my primary concern be, not “What is Bishop so-and-so doing today?” But, rather, “What am I doing today for Christ? And how can I serve Him better” Agreed?
I think it is worth questioning whether there is much real benefit in “helping” a brother Christian who is part of a different church community than one’s own by saying to him, “Hey, your is messing up in this way.” If one’s fellow disciple of Jesus Christ is striving earnestly to be faithful to Christ, chances may be high he already knows such things (and more) about his church leadership.
Oops. I made a format mistake and part of a sentence was mysteriously vacuumed into an internet black hole.
The line in the 2nd paragraph of my last post,
“Hey, your is messing up in this way.”
was meant to read,
“Hey, your (pastor/bishop/elder/trustee, etc.) is messing up in this way.”
My apology wachet auf, my comment was directed torwards Anonymous and his statement below.
“I said: To say that we are all God
Brother Dominic, Anonymous, Brother Francis,
The real point of me calling all of my friends here on this post my family, was to explain to Yllas that while Doug and I may not be related in the secular sense, all of the people on this site are indeed my “family” as God is our Father and Jesus is our brother.
As in the story of the prodigal son, I will not abandon my brothers and sisters simply because they are not “where I am”, …To turn my back on them simply because they have not received the same graces that I have would be to exhibit the most unchristian behavior of all. Anonymous, The Good Brothers, Bethany, etal, may be “saved” but they are no more my brothers or sisters than Erin, Doug, Sally, Laura, etc. because of this fact. Indeed, I would say that preaching to the choir while ignoring the lost sheep would be the antithesis of Christianity.
If the apostles took that attitude, Christianity would have died out within the first few years…
I realize there is a difference between being brothers and sisters IN Jesus, through baptism and being brothers and sisters OF Jesus simply by virtue of being human.
That is why I chose my words carefully when answering Yllas. As you can see by the reprint so graciously provided by anonymous…”Mk said: Yes, we are all related. We are all the children OF God and the brothers and sisters OF Jesus. Therefore they are my family.
So I stand by my answer to Yllas…Yes Yllas, I am related to Doug…Doug is my brother, as are you.
Br Francis,
Don’t you think Catholics should be held to a higher standard? why the low expectations? 64 million Catholics could end abortion America if they followed their faith truly. btw, I am always defending the Catholic religon and have never bashed it, maybe some of it leaders and members, but never the religon itself.
My point was to explain that the curse of political correctness has damaged the Catholic church from the lay people to it’s leaders. I’m not against trying to convert pro-aborts to pro-life, but we shouldn’t have to always address and roll-over to blatent lies at every turn. Jess has been commenting here for a while and I highly doubt any pro-lifer here has called women who abort “murdering whores”. So, that being said, I will try not to lash out in the future.
@Jasper: Pretty sure Jess said that nobody on here has called a woman who aborts a “murdering whore”. Or at least, that is what she meant. I do know of some other PLers from facebook groups (typically high schoolers or early college students) who have said things along those lines and it really makes me cringe.
Thank you, Jasper. I appreciate that. I agree, abortion would end soon if all Catholics decided it was their Christian duty to bring this about.
I would also say that all Christians should strive always to do better in living their Christian life every day. Even the greatest saints can still be more faithful servants of Jesus Christ. There is no upper limit in this life to how much we serve and love Jesus Christ. Christians everywhere have the continuing opportunity, up to the point of death, to grow closer to Jesus in this life.
I would say that Catholics, do, however, have a special obligation to society because of the clarity of the teaching of the Church about what is right and what is wrong (even if some bishops don’t take a strong stand as individuals). The teaching of the Catholic Church as a whole, is clear and consistent about the evil of abortion. And this makes our obligation to act all the more serious. Not all Christians have the benefit of strong and clear teaching from their church leaders. Catholics also have the incredible gift of the seven sacraments, feeding our souls with many graces to help us along the way as we follow Christ. But this is another topic for another conversation. God bless.
“The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.” Pg. 292, #1129
“There are seven sacraments in the Church: Baptism, Confirmation or Chrismation, Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony.” Pg. 289, #1113
These seven sacraments are nothing more than a series of good works. The Bible states repeatedly that good works will never save anybody:
“Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight…”
Romans 3:20
Since the sacraments are supposedly necessary for salvation, and since the sacraments are only available through the Catholic church, then obviously, one must be a faithful member of the Catholic church to be saved.
Please understand, these sacraments, which the Catholic church contends are necessary for salvation, did not even come from God. They are man-made rules which have been handed down through generations.
So when you perform them, you are not obeying God, you are obeying the traditions of men.
One must wonder, under such conditions, if these sacraments are really necessary, or if the Catholic church is using man’s traditions to scare people into lifelong obedience to the church, under the threat of eternal damnation.
If sacraments are necessary for salvation, why does God’s Word proclaim the following?
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.” John 20:31
Paul, the Apostle, delivered these sobering words on the subject:
“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.” 1 Corinthians 1:18
Br. Francis: Do you believe that good works like the sacraments are necessary for salvation? Do you consider it foolishness to believe that salvation can only be obtained through faith in Christ’ s work on the cross? If so, God’s Word warns that you will perish in hell.
When Jesus declared that salvation came only through Him, not only was He telling the truth, He was repeating what He heard from the Father:
“But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God…” John 8:40
To suggest that Jesus is wrong is to suggest that the Father is wrong, as well. Jesus goes on to explain why people refuse to believe His Words:
“He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.” John 8:47
To accept this Catholic doctrine, you must refuse to hear God’s Words. Jesus said that if you can do this, then you are not of God.
Are you sure, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that you are of God?
Are you willing to turn your back on God’s Word to accept man’s words. If you can, you have reason for grave concern:
“Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.” Acts 5:29
I am wary of anybody who professes to know exactly who is going to heaven and who to hell. We don’t know for sure who God chooses to go to heaven.
But then again I’m not totally Catholic, this is just my personal belief.
PIP,
You’re right….only God knows the hearts of man.
However, you will go to Heaven if you simply believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins, was buried and rose again the third day according to scripture:
ICorinthians 5:3-4
3: For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4: And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
That’s it, PIP…only God knows if this is what is truly beleived in the heart of a man.
Anonymous: You’re way off base here: The Catholic Church does not consider the Sacraments to be “good works”. The Sacraments were instituted by Jesus Christ, Himself to communicate his grace. They are percipitable signs accessible to our human nature. By the action of Christ and the Holy Spirit they make present efficaciously the grace that they signify.
Pip: Being a “pick and choose Catholic” aka Cafeteria Catholic, doesn’t fly. You’re either 100% Catholic or not…otherwise, you have no right to call yourself a Catholic. You don’t get to select and discard the teachings of the Church to suit your needs or tastes.
Anonymous quoted,
“The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.” Pg. 292, #1129
(This is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church [CCC], by the way, which he did not mention.)
So, I pulled out my handy CCC, and the very next two sentences after this read: “Sacramental grace” is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. The Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God.
I think it is fairly clear to an unbiased observer who looks at the full context of Catholic teaching on the sacraments that the Catholic Church does not teach or believe that the sacraments are creations of men, made up by the Church. The Church teaches and believes that these sacraments were instituted by God and given to the Church as a means whereby His abundant grace can be given to others. In this way, the Chuch and the ministers of the Church are not acting on their own–they become, rather, through the power of God, agents in God’s plan. God uses mere humans as instruments by which He gives grace to the world. Anonymous, did you miss the CCC saying in the very next sentence that sacramental grace is the grace of the Holy Spirit? And is it controversial among Christians to say that the grace of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation? I hope not.
I should also note that the sacraments are not at all the only means by which God gives grace. The Catholic Church explicitly denies that the sacraments are an exclusive means of grace. He can and does provide grace to us all the time in other ways, beyond the sacraments, as well. For example, as Catholicism teaches, in the case of a non-Christian adult who becomes Christian, even the desire to become Christian is enkindled by God’s grace acting within the person’s soul. And of course, this grace (as all grace) is not earned, but bestowed as a free gift by God.
I am not going to try to plunge into the entire huge array of snippets of Bible quotes and implied accusations to unbiblical faith that Anonymous gave above. For one, the shotgun approach and lack of ability to stick to one thing at a time is typical of a person who in my experience is not interested in an authentic conversation where each person truly listens to the other. But rather, is simply looking for any opportunity to blast the shotgun, hoping one or two pellets will land on a target. And also, there are more than a few places on the internet dedicated to Catholic apoligetics where Anonymous can engage in these faith arguments all day long.
I could certainly engage him here if I thought it would be fruitful, but, frankly, this is not why I come to a blog such as this. There are other more approprate places for this sort of thing.
Anonymous, which is a more important motivation for you personally to comment on this blog? To help end abortion? Or, to accuse Catholics of being unchristian and thereby try to wrench them away from Catholicism into another form of Christianity? I myself, don’t come here to engage in battles about the faith with other Christians. I come here to help end abortion in whatever small way I can through dialog. In other words, for all of us Christians here, shouldn’t the primary goal of our conversation be to talk constructively with those who are pro-abortion? And then also to encourage and help each other in our common effort to bring about a true culture of life? Using this blog as a place to dive into battles amongst each other about our faith differences is a huge distraction from this. And lest I be accused of copping out, I am not saying this sort of debate is not worthwhile or important. I’m saying that on this blog I think we might let this take a back seat to pulling together for the sake of saving the lives of unbron babies. But I don’t presume to speak for Jill here, just for myself.
Mike, if there is any confusion, read this sentence again:
“but then again I’m not totally Catholic, this is just my personal belief.”
That means I don’t consider myself a catholic. I do know a few things about it because I was raised in the church.
Brothers: Just out of curiosity, which order to you belong to?
Br. Francis,
With all due respect, many different things are talked about on this site besides abortion. Christianity is discussed, and my “motivation” is to simply see where all sides are coming from. I do not “hate” Catholics or try to steer them away from Catholisism. It was never my intention to do so. I simply bring up comments and how I understand them (right or wrong) as everyone does here. I am truly sorry if you saw my comments as some type of “battle”. They were sincerely posted as a response to someone else’s comment to open a dialogue to understand them. It happens here all of the time. I am not Catholic, so if anything, doesn’t it give you the opportunity to witness through your teachings? Non-Catholics may feel the same way I do, so I think it’s a wonderful opportunity for Catholics to “clear up” the stigmas that non-Catholics may have about them. I sincerely have changed my thinking on several matters thanks to your posts and mk’s.
People here will talk about food, politics, etc. The “talk” is not always about abortion. I see it as “fellowshipping” with other individuals that I would probably never meet in person.
I think that if this site talked ONLY about abortion, it would be pretty dull. People bring up things that happen in their lives that have nothing to do with abortion, and it gives others the opportunity to pray for them. Is that really so bad? I think that is what makes this site unique…getting to know everyone here and not just their stance on abortion. I could be wrong, though…You do bring up very good points.
Anonymous,
I think you are somewhat mistaken in your interpretation of Jesus’ teachings. While it is true that faith in Jesus and mercy God bestows upon us due to Christ’s obedience even through his passion and death, Jesus also instructed us in his Sermon on the Mount that it is important that we mst continue to conform our actions to God’s commandments as given to Moses.
Please read Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount below; which is Matthew chapter 5 should you like to reference it it the Holy Bible.
***************
When he saw the crowds, he went up the mountain, and after he had sat down, his disciples came to him. He began to teach them, saying: “Blessed are the poor in spirit, 4 for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are they who mourn, for they will be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the land. Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied.
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you (falsely) because of me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven. Thus they persecuted the prophets who were before you. “You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot. You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house. Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father. “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven. I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
*****************
That is such a beautiful sermon. I touches upon the blessedness of merciful works. It touches upon the graces bestowed when persecuted in Jesus’ name (those pro-life protester in the video above). It touches upon the need to continue to follow God’s commandments and NOT to
use Jesus’ name as an excuse to live in ways that are against God’s commandments. I could go on and on but this is a shining example of why Catholics feel a need to perform good works as we follow Jesus example and his teachings.
Another example of this teaching is from the book of James 2:14-18
**********
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them,
I do, though, want to attempt to make one basic illustration about the Catholic approach to the sacraments. And then I’m not going to engage further in endless debate on this (see above). This is more appropriately done elsewhere.
In my opinion, one of the root causes of the confusion between Catholics and Protestant Christians on the topic of the sacraments (remember, the Orthodox have all the sacraments that Catholics do) is really the issue of how we understand the topic of instrumentality in the economy of divine grace. In other words, does God (can He?) use human beings together with elements of the natural world (which are all His creatures) as His instruments to convey His grace. If the answer is yes, (as Catholics believe), then the sacraments are not a problem.
The pencil is a simple but clear example. The pencil is an mere instrument for the purpose of writing. It cannot write anything itself. It doesn’t have the ability to initiate writing or to continue writing anything on it’s own. It does not have the power of writing. Writing is completely beyond the “ability” of a pencil to do by itself. However, when a person picks up a pencil in his hand, the pencil becomes an instrument by which the person writes. We do not say “the pencil wrote a nice letter.” We say, “my friend wrote a nice letter.” People write with the instrument of a pencil. Pencils don’t write on their own.
Similarly, a person (whether priest or layman) does not have the power to deliver divine grace to anybody. But, if God wants to, He can use people as living instruments to deliver His grace to others. As a man picks up a pencil, God “picks up,” so to speak, a person as His instrument, and allows him to be an instrument by which He bestows grace upon others.
There are Biblical illustrations of this sacramental (instrumental) concept at work. I will just provide one (or two) from the Old Testament. See Exodus 17:8-17. The Israelites are in battle with the Amalekites. Moses goes to the top of a hill overlooking the battle. And, perhaps oddly (from a merely human point of view), he raises the staff of God over the battle. As soon as Moses tires and he lowers the staff, the battle turns against the Israelites. When Aaron and Hur help Moses keep his hands lifted, the battle goes in favor of the Israelites.
What is going on here? Note carefully that the raising of the staff in Moses’ hands was essential to winning the battle! No staff (continuously) raised in Moses’ hands–no victory. That is clear. He had to keep that staff raised. Also, it had to be Moses’ hands–not someone else’s. For clearly, Aaron or Hur could simply have picked up the staff and held it in their younger, stronger arms. But no, it had to be Moses. So, Aaron and Hur supported Moses’ arms but the staff remained in Moses’ own hands.
Now, considering this whole scene, is it reasonable to conclude that Moses won the battle all by his own power, just because the raising of his arms with the staff of God was necessary for victory? No! Of course not! Do we say, “Moses won the battle by his power.” Not at all. It doesn’t even occur to us to think such a thing. God used Moses as a necessary instrument in order to deliver His divine power on behalf of the Israelites. The power did not thereby come from Moses. It came from God. But God’s plan was such that He required Moses to be involved as an instrument in the delivery of divine assistance to the Israelites.
The sacraments are this very sort of thing. They work in a certain way (just as it had to be the staff of God and it had to be in Moses’ hands and they had to be raised). But, the divine power (grace) that the sacraments deliver do not at all come from or originate from mere human beings. They are instruments that God uses to deliver His assistance to human beings, in a certain way, according to His divine plan. Just like Moses on the hill overlooking the field of battle.
Very much the same sort of divine-human cooperation can be seen in the parting of the red sea in Exodus 14. Is it the power of Moses that parted the Red Sea? Of course not! But yet, how did God’s plan unfold? He required Moses’ rather ordinary, human, physical cooperation in the divine act of parting the sea. Moses had to stretch the staff out over the sea (v 16). Then, God parted the sea as Moses cooperated with Him in a physical way.
Another example is the water and the rock in the desert. See chapter 17 of Exodus, verses 1-7. The Israelites were in danger of dying of thirst. They needed water. How did God provide? He told Moses to do something physical–strike a rock with the staff, and water would come out (a bit odd, no?)! Was this Moses’ power providing the water? No (cf. Dt 8:15; Is 48:21)! But, was Moses’ cooperation in the form of a particular action required in order for God’s power to be enacted in this way? Yes. (see also 1 Cor 10:4)
This is just how a sacrament works. It is God’s grace acting, through a mere human being, to produce a supernatural effect totally beyond what the human person could do on his own power. But this sort of necessary divine-human cooperation, this instrumental use of human action in the divine plan with regard to bestowing gifts upon mankind, is not strange at all in the Biblical world view. This is my only point here, to show the Biblical principle that God can arrange things if He so chooses such that certain kinds of His supernatural help will be delivered to mankind in such a way that some sort of human act in cooperation with God is required as part of the process.
The New Testament is not lacking in this same principle of cooperation. Note the miracle of the loaves. Jesus multiplied the bread to feed the crowd. But, He required that the disciples take the initial few loaves and start breaking and passing them out. In the process of this human cooperation, Jesus performed the miracle. God and man here act together to deliver what is, at the origin, solely a divine gift. Just because Jesus arranged it this way does not diminish the fact that the power to multiply the loaves came entirely from Him. (Consider also Peter walking on water [Mt 14:28-29]. Peter used his own merely human will and his own body to step out. But He did so at the command of Jesus. It was by Jesus’ power that Peter walked on water. But, Peter was a true participant with Jesus in Jesus’ supernatural act; Peter cooperated with Jesus. Peter engaged his own human free will and bodily action in this event, which is especially shown by Peter sinking when He began to be afraid. Does this make the miracle any less Jesus’ own doing?)
So, given these examples (and many more) I would say that according to the Bible, God (speaking generally), and Jesus, specifically, is not demeaned by His free decision to draw man into cooperation with Him as He exercises His divine power for man’s benefit.
OK. That’s enough for me on this! We could go on forever. Hope it helps. God bless.
Thank-you Brother Francis. You explain it very well.
Mike, Bro’s. Dominic and I are Dominicans. One of the Dominican mottoes is, Veritas (Truth), which, hopefully, we are serving here as best we can together with everyone else (See Jn 14:6).
Anonymous (re: 3:30pm above), I agree with you that it is a good thing that discussion here at Jill’s house is not restricted exclusively to abortion.
And, I am not against all Christian-Christian dialogue here. I just think, in my opinion, that long, involved, highly faith-specific debates between practicing Christians are better done elsewhere so that the overall emphasis can be centered on life issues, even as less serious side discussions also take place in a more human and natural way. (Note also, that this is not the same as faith-centered discussion between a Christian and an non-Christian, or a Christian and a non-practicing Christian, which is a different matter).
Do you Brothers have a website, or a blog anywhere that we can learn more from, or read more of your explanations/teachings?
You explained that so well, it would be nice to read more and be able to share it with others.
Br. Francis,
I do respect your opinion. However, I, personally, am more emphatic about “eternal life” than “temporary” (earthly) life.
If one is going to change his/her stance on abortion, isn’t it better to try to tell them the truth about Christ first so that the Holy Spirit can change their hearts & minds? Not only can they then be witnesses to others, but they will also be rewarded with eternal life. Kindof a double-bonus there, don’t you think?
People seem to be enjoying the comments on the first article, where a lovely discussion has been taking place.
-Just my opinion, of course.
Ah but Brother Francis,
Never forget that while we “christians” are discussing our faith many, many non christian eyes are watching and learning.
Never underestimate the power of the “lurker”…lol
Mike, thank you for the compliment. We don’t really have a blog, as such. But we do have a web site in the form of a blog at
http://www.dominicanfriars.org
Occasionally there are links to various things written by Dominicans that are available on the internet.
Jill, you may wanna delete that comment. I used an online translator (thus only getting the gist) but there is stuff in there about staying in church as preists rape little boys, and insulting of prolifers in general. Says essentially there was nothing the police should have done and prolifers should stay in churches (as I said above) and the people praying are idiots. Etc.
Of course, as I said, I used an online translator so im only getting the gist, my guess is that it may even be worse than im getting, or it could be less so. Either way it does seem insulting.
Thanks Dan,
Done.
Well MK,
In the end, the dilemma is yours to justify.
You justify it by deletion.
In the final truth, Protestants created a Jesus who allows abortion.
Their Abba is death by want.
Their “Holy Spirit” allows the decision to kill the baby in the womb.
Protestants are the most popular form of Christians in the USA. The most nummerous.
Which is why abortion is popular and numerous.
I didn’t create the decision of Protestants that made Abba(daddy) allow his “believers” to murder the baby in the womb, MK.
Granted, the “mainstream Protestant forms” of worshiping Jesus as God, is dying out.
The Episcopalians are going, going, gone.
Baptist worship one God, that allows abortion, or simply murder through God, and one “sect” of Baptist don’t pray to Jesus for the “choice”.
I’m sure some Lutheran,Methodist, Presbyterian, will step up and defend their Daddy which allows abortion through some quote of their Good News, that justifies abortion.
Or, it might be the No News of their Jesus, which simply didn’t record the words of Jesus about abortion, while he was here on Earth.
Every nation where Protestants are the main culture(see Europe,Canada,USA) allows abortion by making God, become a God that murders his creation, if one is to believe that God allows the birth of babies in this world. Right MK?
God allows the birth of children into this world, in the final analysis of allowing life to exist here on Earth through his mercy. And his mercy to allow his Protestant believers to murder the baby in the womb, is a creation of “scripture analysis” Protestants, not me, MK.
Since in some post,MK. you brought up children and simplicity of right and wrong, the simplicity of a the Protestant dilemma is child simple.
Thou shall not kill.
Thou shall kill by abortion, Daddy’s creation.
The Dilemma of the two God’s of Christianity.
Delete me, Mk, but the truth does not cease to exist.
And for you bible quoters that made Daddy into a God that allows murder of his creation in the womb; Proverbs 11:29.
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Yllas, I take offense to that. I am a protestant, and my Jesus absolutely does NOT condone abortion in any way, shape or form.
Do you not realize that there are those who actually are led by the Holy Spirit and then there are those who pretend to be led by the Holy Spirit ? Frauds.
Even back in the Bible times, there were the Pharisees, who acted as though they were religious and good, yet inwardly they were liars. They were hateful, bigoted, and arrogant, and doomed.
Simply because people can call themselves a Christian, doesn’t necessarily make them so. Hilary and Obama, etc can call themselves Christians all they want, but we can see the fruit of their life and we KNOW they are not. They do not represent Christ, because Christ would not have allowed abortion.
And just as there are pro-abort Catholics who do not represent Christ, there are pro-abort protestants who do not represent Christ. Each of these groups give their own people a bad name.
Christ does not support abortion, and my life is based on Christ, not a religion or a church. I do not support abortion because abortion is absolutely against everything that a Christian should stand for.
In the final analysis, acts,decisions,choices of Protestants are a appeal to Jesus for rightousness in those acts,decisions,choices. God/Jesus/Spirit of Jesus,is the authority of right and wrong in this world for Protestants.
Methodist,Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptist, Episcopalians, are the majority,popular culture.
That popular form of worship of Christ made Jesus into a God that allows abortion.
How did it happen Bethany?
Give me the history, and bible quotes used to make Jesus into a God that allows the decision to murder life.
Should you not know your other brother’s and sister’s in Christ reasoning, for making God into a dilemma of the two God’s of Christianity?
I know you don’t worship the Jesus that allows abortion, Bethany. But, millions, the majority, the popular Protestant church made God allow abortion .
I didn’t do it Bethany, Protestants did it.
Now, how do you like anti-Protestant post at this site Bethany? Going to delete me, but not all those bigots against Catholics who are allowed to post here?
Maybe you should have thought about allowing those post which exhibited anti-Catholic bigotry posting here, and defended Catholics as vigorously as your defending Protestants who created the God that allows abortion.
Which is to say, since you allow free speech here as a absolute right, where are the Protestants that allow abortion through their bible analysis which made God into allowing murder?
Maybe you need some of those Protestants to give me their reasons for making Jesus into a God that allows abortion.
Say, a Hillary Methodist.
I am sure you know such Protestants since they are the majority,popular, culture in the USA.
Invite them to post Bethany.
In the final analysis, acts,decisions,choices of Protestants are a appeal to Jesus for rightousness in those acts,decisions,choices. God/Jesus/Spirit of Jesus,is the authority of right and wrong in this world for Protestants.
Methodist,Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptist, Episcopalians, are the majority,popular culture.
That popular form of worship of Christ made Jesus into a God that allows abortion.
How did it happen Bethany?
Give me the history, and bible quotes used to make Jesus into a God that allows the decision to murder life.
Should you not know your other brother’s and sister’s in Christ reasoning, for making God into a dilemma of the two God’s of Christianity?
Yllas, any person who claims to be a Christian, and yet allows abortion to be “okay” in their world, or who cites Bible verses and claim that God says it’s okay, is NOT a Christian, and is NOT my sister or brother in Christ. They are apostate.
I know you don’t worship the Jesus that allows abortion, Bethany. But, millions, the majority, the popular Protestant church made God allow abortion .
Thank you, Yllas…I appreciate you acknowledging that I do not worship a false Christ. I agree, there are all kinds of churches which allow it. However, I do not believe this is due to protestantism, but due to individuals going against God’s word, and denying what the Bible clearly says.
Like I said before, the Pharisees’ used scripture themselves, and twisted it and turned it to say what they wanted it to say. They were wrong in doing so. Yet, that didn’t nullify the scriptures.
I didn’t do it Bethany, Protestants did it.
Now, how do you like anti-Protestant post at this site Bethany? Going to delete me, but not all those bigots against Catholics who are allowed to post here?
I see the point you are trying to make, but I honestly did not see the posts that were anti-Catholic, that you had such a problem with. And if you’ll notice, I am not trying to delete you, I am trying to respond to you. If you would simply respond to any anti-Catholic posts with facts about why Catholicism is not as they say, then that would probably be a preferable route, and easier for them to understand, than you telling them they are bigots. They may truly believe the things they say about Catholics, and it is your duty to set them straight, should you have a problem with it (that is, if you have a problem with it, or if you are a Catholic). Do you see what I am saying?
Maybe you should have thought about allowing those post which exhibited anti-Catholic bigotry posting here, and defended Catholics as vigorously as your defending Protestants who created the God that allows abortion.
Yllas, I do defend them, when I can and when I have the knowledge to do so. Otherwise, I leave it up to Catholics to defend their faith because to be completely honest- I really don’t have that much knowledge about their beliefs to defend them genuinely.
How can you defend something if you don’t even know much about it at all? I defend protestants because I know what I believe.
Which is to say, since you allow free speech here as a absolute right, where are the Protestants that allow abortion through their bible analysis which made God into allowing murder?
Yllas, no, I don’t believe that (free speech as absolute right on this blog). As a moderator, I try to delete posts that are nasty, from pretty much everyone. If they cross the line in the rules, and I am there to catch it, I will delete it.
Where are the protestants on this blog who allow murder (abortion)? I haven’t seen any. And I wouldn’t want them here because they don’t represent Christ. And Christ is what faith is all about. If they were to come and post here though, I would be sure to respond to them and set them straight, not to delete them unless they directly attacked someone or blasphemed Christ.
Say, a Hillary Methodist.
I am sure you know such Protestants since they are the majority,popular, culture in the USA.
Invite them to post Bethany.
I don’t want them here. And I understand that you’re trying to get me to see how you don’t want anti-Catholic bigots posting here. But the difference is, I’m not telling you that you have to invite anti-catholic bigots, and if there were pro-abortion protestants coming to this board, I wouldn’t delete them, I would debate them.
That being said, I understand what you’re trying to get at, finally. But I just don’t agree.
In the final truth, Protestants created a Jesus who allows abortion.
yllas, the Jesus of the Bible didn’t say anything about abortion. You may have a theoretical construct of a god, etc., that is against abortion, but that’s not the same thing as anything externally true to your opinion.
Granted that you have your feelings, but they do not necessarily apply to other people, regardless of religion or not.
On the Bible, it’s exceedingly farfetched that was the intent to prohibit abortion, that nothing was said, given the detailed Mosaic law. Abortion was known, desired, and practiced in biblical times, i.e. same as now not every pregnancy was wanted.
The biblical god as well commands that some pregnant women be attacked, that the unborn would die, and no guilt was deemed to be there on the part of the unborn.
Also, any all-knowing god would already be aware of who was going to have an abortion and when; it would not be in doubt, either way.
yllas: Give me the history, and bible quotes used to make Jesus into a God that allows the decision to murder life.
It’s not “murder.” You may not like the idea of it, but your likes and dislikes are not what makes for murder or not.
Abortion was not held to be murder in biblical times. Murder had at least to be illegal killing, or killing that was seen as harmful to the community, and abortion was neither back then.
That’s right Doug, pagans and Christians are the same, when it comes to killing their off spring. Did you learn such justification of murdering the creation of God as a shaking Quaker?
Tell me, Doug, which bible line did you find as a shaking Quaker to kill your brother and sisters in the womb?
Now, Doug, since your a authority in all things Christian, what bible verses made God into allowing abortion of his creation?
But, your Calvinism is becoming more apparent with each post that knows pre destination is a amazing fact. I like that Doug, the all knowing God of pre-destination.
Send me the bible quotes, Doug. Not your opinion when justifying the God that makes abortion pre-destined. What a joke.
72 Year Old Grandmother Put in Solitary Would Not Stand Naked
By Greg Dixon
January 15 Same Persecution Date for Two Women Five Centuries Apart
The date was January 15, 1549, when a former nun in England named Elizabeth, her last being lost in antiquity, was arrested by two Capuchin friars for possessing a Latin New Testament and taken before the council for trial. She continued to best her interrogators with quick quips to their trick questions.
Council:
Doug, pleeeeahhhssseeee….. Not this again.
If you want to argue your abortion supporting theories from a secular point of view, go ahead, but why oh why must you pervert MY GOD and attempt to tell us what He thinks when you don’t even believe He exists?
It is the most insulting thing you can possibly do. Really. And I’m so tired of it.
Ok, I’m late in this thread, but the Dominican brothers rock!
This coming from a received Lay Carmelite. ;-)
Doug, pleeeeahhhssseeee….. Not this again.
If you want to argue your abortion supporting theories from a secular point of view, go ahead, but why oh why must you pervert MY GOD and attempt to tell us what He thinks when you don’t even believe He exists?
Bethany, just what did I say to make you think that? I’m not “perverting” anything. If I have made factual errors, let me know, but I think the points are valid.
……
It is the most insulting thing you can possibly do. Really. And I’m so tired of it.
Again, no intentional offense meant.
That’s right Doug, pagans and Christians are the same, when it comes to killing their off spring.
yllas, you are right, there, though likely not as you intended. Both Christians, pagans, and non-religious people sometimes have unwanted pregnancies.
Off course, the unborn are not “offspring,” really. If you see somebody killing a child that has “sprung off” from the mother, then call the cops.
……
Did you learn such justification of murdering the creation of God as a shaking Quaker?
Again, it’s silly to pretend that abortion is “murder.” I’m really not a Quaker; never was. Has nothing to do with it, however. You’re just wrong.
……
Tell me, Doug, which bible line…..
Postal, you can probably find it for yourself. It has to do with the biblical god commanding for babies to be ripped from wombs. There is nothing said about any guilt on the part of the unborn, there.
……
Now, Doug, since your a authority in all things Christian, what bible verses made God into allowing abortion of his creation?
Silly, yllas. No claims of “authority,” but there is such a thing as logic. There are Bible passages which can be taken as being “pro-life” and there are passages which can be taken as being “pro-choice.” Jesus says nothing about abortion in the Bible. In biblical times, abortion was left up to the pregnant woman, or perhaps to the father or father of the husband or wife…? I’m not sure, and those were more patriarchal times.
In any case, in biblical times abortion was not “murder,” and was known, practiced, and desired at times.
……
But, your Calvinism is becoming more apparent with each post that knows pre destination is a amazing fact.
Heh – don’t think I’m really a Calvinist. I best go refresh myself on what it is again.
:: refresh :: refresh :: refresh ::
No, that’s not me.
….
I like that Doug, the all knowing God of pre-destination.
No, you like making up silly stuff.
……
Send me the bible quotes, Doug. Not your opinion when justifying the God that makes abortion pre-destined. What a joke.
The “joke,” if any, is your apparent lack of ability to think logically and rationally.
If there is an all-knowing god, then we are predestined. That is logic, and to state otherwise is false and illogical. Doesn’t have to be a “god,” either – any all-knowing entity suffices.
The premise is that an entity knows all, thus our future is known, already – in what we think of as the “present.” There is that which we think of as the “future” and that too is known to any all-knowing entity. We do not have to be aware of it, but it thus exists and is fixed, i.e. we are pre-destined.
This ain’t rocket science – basically, any all-knowing dude knows what we’re gonna do, ahead of time.
Doug