Suckered by Juno
I had to ponder the double negative in the first sentence of this blog post on Juno by pro-abort Revolution Newspaper. “[N]ot anti-choice”? What, they don’t even want to be called pro-choice anymore?
How is it that audiences who are not anti-choice are walking out of a movie like Juno without even realizing what hit them?
For many years now, Christian fascists have been hammering a message that what America needs is a return to the oppressive values of the 1950s (and in many ways, the 1850s), including a return to traditional woman’s role as mother. They have been setting terms very broadly, to the point that any Democrat who wants to run for president has to declare that abortion is morally wrong and tragic, while the movement to ban all abortion grows and shuts down clinics….
And through all this, a morality has spread that accepts that we “all” supposedly abhor abortion as a tragedy. The fact that so many people have been taken in by Juno should serve as a wake-up call on how ominously far things have gone in that direction.
I do wonder what alternative Rev thinks we have to a “woman’s role as mother.” I know they’re working on uterine facsimiles, but until then, I must enlighten Rev that there is only one conduit to propagate the species. What, didn’t you have comprehensive sex ed, my friend?
I also must note the “morality [that] has spread that accepts that we ‘all’ supposedly abhor abortion as a tragedy” was started by Rev’s very own Bill Clinton, now perpetuated by Hillary. “Safe, legal, and rare,” Rev? Never heard that phrase?
I agree this presents a problem. As recently as two days ago, Bill called abortion a “tragedy.” The next question is, why?
I agree with Rev that their situation is ominous.
On a related note, a young reporter named Brianna, writing for a school newspaper in CA, emailed me last week with questions about my thoughts on Juno. One was, “What message or impact do you feel this movie sends to teens?” I responded I would be interested in her answering that for my blog, which she did:
Well… most of my friends and I thought that it wasn’t realistic. Although none of us have even come close to getting pregnant, we still felt that the decision would be much harder to make and that our parents would have been much more upset than Juno’s were.
It was extremely unrealistic that she would find adoptive parents that quickly, and I thought the movie stereotyped your typical planned parenthood.
I personally thought that the movie glorified teen pregnancy and that people who saw this movie would think of pregnancy in a greater light. I think that the movies and media have an easier way to get into teens heads and they sometimes give unspoken lessons that teens listen to instead of their parents. Therefore, some of my friends and I think that this movie is a propaganda for the teen.
Despite some of my friends and I’s opinion, many people believe that it was good for teens to see the consequences of their actions. I think for many people the movie was a reality check and it really made people think of what could happen.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I still see this as a pro-choice film over pro-life.
Sometimes things are too good to be true.
I think we need more pro life movies with a secular slant – if not the Left will keep on calling us Christian fascists.
To me the fight to end abortion is not even a religious or Christian issue – it’s a human rights issue.
“To me the fight to end abortion is not even a religious or Christian issue – it’s a human rights issue.”
Amen Mario.
“I think we need more pro life movies with a secular slant – if not the Left will keep on calling us Christian fascists.”
Um, yes do trick us.
“Well… most of my friends and I thought that it wasn’t realistic. Although none of us have even come close to getting pregnant, we still felt that the decision would be much harder to make and that our parents would have been much more upset than Juno’s were.”
I’m always amazed to hear stories about teens who get pregnant and don’t know what they should do. They act like they are the first person on earth this has happened to.
Thirty or forty years ago if you grew up in a big family, you understood where babies came from and what to expect when Mom was pregnant. There was no “decision” to be made. Kids today are growing up with one or no siblings and have no experience with a pregnancy in the home (or they were too young to remember) so they fail to even see the connection between sex-pregnancy-baby.
Parents need to wake up and talk to their kids about sex, marriage, and family. These are not trivial things to be learned from the mainstream media. Don’t be afraid to tell your kids what your expectations are and why. You can include God in the conversation or not, but they need to hear it from you to know that it is important. If they have to make that “decision” some day, at least they will have thought about it already.
Well… most of my friends and I thought that it wasn’t realistic.
Amen! This wasn’t realistic. Adoption is nothing like this film in real life.
But this statement is patently false:
It was extremely unrealistic that she would find adoptive parents that quickly
Actually, I could walk into an adoption agency, browse through profiles and leave with an adoptive family over my lunch break. Adoptive parents are easy to find. There are 10 million couples advertising on every outlet for adoptive children.
I do wonder what alternative Rev thinks we have to a “woman’s role as mother.”
If you look at the rest of the sentence, they were actually referring to the return to the traditional women’s role in the 1950’s. Or rather, I suspect, to people’s *perception* of that role, which is: all women are (or should want to be) mothers, a woman is defined first and foremost by her relationships to her children and husband, and mothers don’t work outside the home but instead stay home with their children full-time.
I can think of quite a few alternatives to that.
I can think of quite a few alternatives to that.
Like….
Barreness?
Rotting in a nursing home at 90 because you have no children to care for you?
or
Having children as little playthings whom you abandon to daycare to raise?
Having your mother raise your children for you?
Making the Dad be the Mom?
These aren’t good alternatives.
Jen R:
If that’s what Rev meant (maybe it is), then the point is no longer relevant. Pro-choicers like to think that we support oppression of women, but we don’t. A “return to the traditional role of child-bearer” – then yes. That’s what a mother does and its what we support. She may choose to be a mother or choose not to… but that decision should not be made after the baby is already there.
Dan:
How do you see this as a pro-choice movie? I mean… she ‘had’ a choice because she lives in a Roe-dominated society. It really ends there. There would be no story beyond that point, and the ending would not be happy. That’s really the mantra of our whole pro-life movement: “Allow the story to continue. See what happens.”
a woman’s role as a mother.
Not every woman has to be a mother. Not everybody is suited to having kids.
Not every woman has to be a mother. Not everybody is suited to having kids.
Damn right! But once she concieves a child, she is a mother. And if she aborts that child, she’s still a mother, only the mother of a dead baby.
So abortion doesn’t stop motherhood, it simply kills children.
Alex:
Pro-choicers like to think that we support oppression of women, but we don’t.
You might want to talk to Jacqueline, as in the comment above yours she seemed to express a belief that the “traditional role” I described was the only good one. :)
She may choose to be a mother or choose not to… but that decision should not be made after the baby is already there.
On this, we agree.
“Not every woman has to be a mother. Not everybody is suited to having kids.”
Damn right! But once she concieves a child, she is a mother. And if she aborts that child, she’s still a mother, only the mother of a dead baby.
Jacqueline, you may feel that way, but a given woman may not, and if she has an abortion it may be because she doesn’t want to be a mother.
……
So abortion doesn’t stop motherhood, it simply kills children.
I’d certainly say it prevents or even “stops” motherhood, and “children” is entirely subjective there.
Doug
Damn right! But once she concieves a child, she is a mother. And if she aborts that child, she’s still a mother, only the mother of a dead baby.
Does the dad have any responsibilities here, Jacqueline? Because, you know, 85% of men involved in unplanned out-of-wedlock pregnancies just up and run off. So… what then?
You might want to talk to Jacqueline, as in the comment above yours she seemed to express a belief that the “traditional role” I described was the only good one. :)
It’s certainly the BEST one. I’m not saying that mothers can’t do other things while being mothers- some of the best mothers I know are nurses (my mother), doctors (my patroness saint), teachers (my mentor), etc. Traditional role doesn’t mean ‘homemaker,’ it just means, get this, actually raising your own children. I think you were denigrating those women who do nothing but stay at home and raise children, and I was pointing out that their are far worse alternatives than that.
“So abortion doesn’t stop motherhood, it simply kills children.”
amen!
Jasper 1:16:
“So abortion doesn’t stop motherhood, it simply kills children.”
amen!
Amen!
Does the dad have any responsibilities here, Jacqueline? Because, you know, 85% of men involved in unplanned out-of-wedlock pregnancies just up and run off. So… what then?
Men who decide they don’t want to be fathers, are considered “deadbeat dads”, while women who decide they don’t want to be mothers are called “pro-choice”.
Children who are conceived deserve to be protected by BOTH parents.
Does the dad have any responsibilities here, Jacqueline? Because, you know, 85% of men involved in unplanned out-of-wedlock pregnancies just up and run off. So… what then?
Isn’t this also an argument for not having sex out of wedlock?
That isn’t my question, Bethany. My question concerns men getting “off the hook” easily and taking no responsibility, leaving the woman with little choice (if it were up to you). Imagine yourself in that situation. I’m imagining myself in it right now and I feel a sense of dread and hopelessness in my stomach. How do you feel?
Isn’t this also an argument for not having sex out of wedlock?
No. It’s not so much of an argument as it is a simple question.
That isn’t my question, Bethany. My question concerns men getting “off the hook” easily and taking no responsibility, leaving the woman with little choice (if it were up to you). Imagine yourself in that situation. I’m imagining myself in it right now and I feel a sense of dread and hopelessness in my stomach. How do you feel?
Absolutely! I think it’s a shame, and I think men should be held accountable for the offspring they produce. But are you holding them to a higher standard than you hold the mother? Of course you are. They are expected to take responsibility for all the children they conceive, should the MOTHER decide she wants to keep the baby. However, if the mother decides to kill a baby that the father is more than willing to take care of, she’s not looked at as a “dead beat mother”, but “pro-choice”. What a double standard.
Does the dad have any responsibilities here, Jacqueline?
He certainly does. He must provide his rightful share of care and support to his child.
Because, you know, 85% of men involved in unplanned out-of-wedlock pregnancies just up and run off. So… what then?
I’m here! Crisis Pregnancy Center’s are here. Adoption agencies are here.
Leah, let’s be real and state the unpopular obvious:
85% of men run off because they aren’t married to the woman they impregnated- they are not committed to eachother by law and he has no responsibility to her but to only his child. He is related to the child, not the woman.
Her decision to sleep with someone that has no obligation to her means that she is on her own for the length of her pregancy, because it’s only afterwards when paternity can be established that we can fiercely pursue child support. In marriages, regardless of who is actually the biological father, the husband is the legal father, and since the woman is related to the father, he is obligated to care for her during her pregnancy. So clearly, 85% of men take off because women let them, by having sex with them outside of the legal and moral protections marriage offers.
So what’s the answer? Simple: Don’t have sex with men you’re not married to and you will likely not be abandoned. If you are in the small minority of women who are abandoned barefoot and pregnant by their husbands, you have recourse that you wouldn’t in an out-of-wedlock situation.
Think about this, Leah.
A man has sex, only wants to have sex, does NOT want to be pregnant.
His girlfriend becomes pregnant. The man does NOT want a baby. The girl does.
The man is a “dead beat dad” for running away from his “responsibility”.
A woman has sex, only wants to have sex, does NOT want to be pregnant.
She becomes pregnant. She does NOT want a baby. The man does.
She is “taking responsibility” when she has an abortion and kills the child, even though the father was willing to take care of the child that was rightfully his as well.
How is this possibly fair? It is not. You give women choices, but you do not give men the same choices, and you condemn them and demonize them for doing the same thing you praise women for doing!
Imagine yourself in that situation.
I can’t imagine myself in that situation because I won’t let myself get in that situation. It’s as simple as saying “No” to sex with men who aren’t married to you.
I’m imagining myself in it right now and I feel a sense of dread and hopelessness in my stomach.
You don’t have to feel that way because it’s 100% your choice on whether or not you’ll ever be that way. I’ll never be that way.
Imagine instead that you’re married and you two are excited about the possibility of having a first child. You find out you’re pregnant, you tell him and he REJOICES. He then spends the next nine months assembling cribs and changing tables and going to 7 different take-out restaurants in one night to satisfy your pregnancy cravings. He holds your hand during the first ultrasound and holds his hands to your belly in bed at night, hoping to feel a kick. When your child is born, he passes out pink or blue bubble-gum cigars.
Does this scenario give you dread and hopelessness or joy and excitement? Because this is how I envision my first pregnancy- and there’s nothing but joy there. And joy or dread- it’s your choice, but it all depends on the choices you make now.
The funniest thing about this is that feminists will frequently say (about deadbeat dads), “If they didn’t want kids, they shouldn’t have had sex!”
Unbelievably ironic!
Anonymous was me, obviously.
Bethany- What is it like to be pregnant and married? Isn’t it the opposite of dread and hopelessness?
Imagine instead that you’re married and you two are excited about the possibility of having a first child. You find out you’re pregnant, you tell him and he REJOICES. He then spends the next nine months assembling cribs and changing tables and going to 7 different take-out restaurants in one night to satisfy your pregnancy cravings. He holds your hand during the first ultrasound and holds his hands to your belly in bed at night, hoping to feel a kick. When your child is born, he passes out pink or blue bubble-gum cigars.
I love that scenario! Brings back memories.
The funniest thing about this is that feminists will frequently say (about deadbeat dads), “If they didn’t want kids, they shouldn’t have had sex!”
Unbelievably ironic!
Indeed- the men whom they sleep with should have had the self-control they don’t have an abstain which they refuse to do.
The beautiful thing about morals is, Jacqueline, that they are unique to each person. The ultimate Right and Wrong of the universe are not, but our personal morals are a human’s attempt to decipher this Right and Wrong.
SO… our morals are not the same. I am not married. I have sex outside of marriage. I am NOT going to change that because of your loud statement. Does this make me smaller in your eyes? Maybe, but I don’t particularly care, to tell the truth. In my current situation, I know that my partner would not abandon me, but I have had sex with people who I didn’t know well enough to judge that (and I knew him for over a year).
Here’s an idea: EVERYONE EVERYONE EVERYONE EVERYONE SHOULD TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS ALWAYS!!!!!! Does this mean I have had a change of heart? No. But the very LEAST a guy can do in my opinion, is stick by for moral support if an abortion is the option decided upon.
That’s 85% of men I will NEVER have any respect for.
Bethany- What is it like to be pregnant and married? Isn’t it the opposite of dread and hopelessness?
It is pure bliss! I loved when my husband felt my tummy and talks to the baby. I loved when I had tears in my eyes and told him we were going to have our first child…how excited we were.
I loved when friends and family brought me baby clothes and blankets, and I would look at them and envision my sweet baby in those clothes.
I loved crocheting blankets for my babies while I was pregnant.
I loved the cravings, even the really weird ones.
Believe it or not, even though on the surface I didn’t enjoy the morning sickness, on the inside, I loved it because it assured me that my babies were okay, and it reminded me that my pregnancy was real.
Ah to be pregnant again!
EVERYONE EVERYONE EVERYONE EVERYONE SHOULD TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS ALWAYS!!!!!
I agree. Women should be held to the same standard as you hold men, Leah.
I love that scenario! Brings back memories.
Damn right! But once she concieves a child, she is a mother. And if she aborts that child, she’s still a mother, only the mother of a dead baby.
Posted by: Jacqueline at February 19, 2008 12:08 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hey, you could stand outside hospitals and tell women that after they miscarry-
“YOU’RE THE MOTHER OF A DEAD BABY!”
I know. I agree. But when I say “taking responsibility for your actions” you, in your mind, rule out abortion. I do not.
Hey, you could stand outside hospitals and tell women that after they miscarry-
“YOU’RE THE MOTHER OF A DEAD BABY!”
Women who miscarry already know that. There would be no reason to tell them something they already realize.
I know. I agree. But when I say “taking responsibility for your actions” you, in your mind, rule out abortion. I do not.
How is a man choosing not to be a father any different than a woman choosing not to be a mother, Leah?
Leah,
Aborting a baby is selfish NOT responsible.
Wow, Leah,
You’re awful touchy. You are the one that recognizes that 85% of unmarried men leave their partners and that gives you fear and dread. This is not a morality issue. This is a statistical fact. If odds were stacked 85% against you in a lesser venue, would you take those? You may not respect that 85% of men, but you’ll let them use and leave you and you will suffer for it. I don’t think your not respecting them cause them any of the agony you’ll face by being abandoned by them. I don’t expect you to change, although you’re obviously making a choice you yourself pointed out as foolish.
Bottom line, you are creating your own hopelessness and dread. I guess sex is worth it to you. It’s not to me.
P.S. If you know your current partner won’t abandon you, what’s the hopelessness and dread?
Hey, you could stand outside hospitals and tell women that after they miscarry-
“YOU’RE THE MOTHER OF A DEAD BABY!”
Women who miscarry already know that. There would be no reason to tell them something they already realize.
And the right response is, “We’re sorry for your loss.”
I know. I agree. But when I say “taking responsibility for your actions” you, in your mind, rule out abortion. I do not.
How is a man choosing not to be a father any different than a woman choosing not to be a mother, Leah?
Anonymous:
No, it would be a double standard if I suggested that the woman steal away to secretly acquire an abortion without his knowledge (that is, if he is of the 15% that stayed). In any case, standards can’t quite be exactly the same, seeing as it is the WOMAN who will be potentially carting around another human (yes, it’s a human, not a potato, before you jump all over that one) for the next 9 months.
Jacqueline:
Hmm… touchy? Maybe.
The 85% are not good odds. However, it isn’t an 85% chance I’ll be getting pregnant, either. Since I’m on the pill (using it correctly, might I add) it’s about a .1% chance, making my chances of being abandoned pregnant (well, in reality it’s 0, but just for the sake of argument) .085%. In all liklihood, even if I did have a myriad of partners (which I don’t, never have, and never will) I would probably never get the opportunity to see if they are a man worthy of my respect.
The scenario I was trying to imagine was being alone and pregnant. However, even though I *am* in a committed and loving relationship, I would still feel similar sentiments. Not because of being alone, though. I can tell you how I would feel because I have before:
I felt guilty for putting something of that magnitude and responsibility on him, even though I was fully aware that sex was as much his decision as mine. I felt scared because I’m too young. I felt worried about what my family would say. I felt hopeless because my future was ruined and I would never be able to fulfill myself in the ways I wanted to. I was worried about what his family would say–worried that they would blame me (because his future was ruined as well).
I look very forward to having children someday, but not until after I’m married and with a good, solid university degree under my belt and a lot of world experience.
I didn’t abort, by the way. I either miscarried very early or simply missed a period at a very coincidental time. I’ll never know.
By the way, one a more cheerful note:
To those who are interested, I have posted online some photos of Alberta. If you want to see them go here:
http://www.leahelaine.myphotoalbum.com
There are also pictures from France there. Woot!
I’m sorry you went through that, Leah.
Jacqueline:
I think you were denigrating those women who do nothing but stay at home and raise children
I wasn’t, and I don’t see how you got that from my comment. I was denigrating the idea that there is one, and only one, right way that every woman should live.
Leah, I am sorry that you felt that way, and that is a very common first reaction to pregnancy when you are not married and are confused as to how you will manage. The problem here is not the baby. The problem is that you were afraid. What you would have needed, had the pregnancy continued, was a supportive person/friend who could help you, encourage you, let you know that it doesn’t have to be the “end” of your life. A person who could guide you and direct you and help you through your pregnancy. Abortion doesn’t solve any problems, and it doesn’t guarantee that you will have a future.
Leah, if you ever become pregnant again, by some accident, please, please consider giving the baby to me- or up to any adoption agency. There are so many people who would be willing to give your baby a good home. I would be more than willing to care for your baby as well. Abortion would be the end of that baby’s life, but if you gave the baby up to me or someone else, you would be giving the baby a chance at life, while also having the opportunity to do what you want to do in life. Please consider it if you ever do become pregnant. Any child is welcome here.
No, it would be a double standard if I suggested that the woman steal away to secretly acquire an abortion without his knowledge (that is, if he is of the 15% that stayed). In any case, standards can’t quite be exactly the same, seeing as it is the WOMAN who will be potentially carting around another human (yes, it’s a human, not a potato, before you jump all over that one) for the next 9 months
no, that is not analogous, Leah. The woman need not secretly steal away to acquire an abortion. Many men make it known beforehand that they are leaving, just as a woman lets the man know beforehand that she is going to have an abortion.
Do you think that the men would still be responsible if he offered to pay for an abortion, and the woman refused, and then the man left?
After all, he did try to own up to his “responsibility” (from your point of view), and his girlfriend simply refused. So is he really doing wrong by leaving and making the choice not to be a father to the child?
Leah –> great pictures –> you in headscarf –> exotic spy on dangerous and secretive mission.
Sweeeet….
Doug
Bethany:
That is very kind of you. It may interest you to know that we weren’t planning on aborting anyway (he was worried about the psychological effects it might have on me–which, psychological effects or no, was sweet of him to consider), but I would not be able to give up a child for adoption to an agency least of all. We did have someone who was going to help us raise the child until we had finished part-timing our way through university. However, it is incredibly generous and kind of you to make such an offer.
Now, I am always very cautious about sex, but should I ever find myself in that situation again (heaven forbid), I am so happy to know that I will have you to talk to about it. Even finding ourselves at opposite ends of arguments, your kindness I find to be overwhelming.
The funniest thing about this is that feminists will frequently say (about deadbeat dads), “If they didn’t want kids, they shouldn’t have had sex!” Unbelievably ironic!
Bethany, I don’t see it as ironic, just cognizant of the reality that men can’t be pregnant.
There is a point in time when the men can assure that there won’t be a pregnancy if he doesn’t want one. That time does not extend as far as it does for the woman, because only she can become pregnant.
Doug
Bethany: I’m going to reflect on that and come up with a better analogy. Even as I wrote it I saw flaws… but whatever. I’ll redo. :)
Doug: You just became one of my favorite people of all time.
And keep it down about my secret identity, kay? The people of France must never know me for who I really am….
St. Louisans, if there are any out there, should know there is a protest over Alberto Gonzales, here to speak tonight, and paid 35,000 bucks to speak there by WashU.
It’s at the Music Hall on Delmar at 5pm. A lot of us will be wearing orange jumpsuits. Hope to see you there!
Bethany, I don’t see it as ironic, just cognizant of the reality that men can’t be pregnant.
Wouldn’t that be all the more reason for women to hold themselves even more accountable before having sex with someone they don’t know will be there for them the next day?
What is it like to be pregnant and married? Isn’t it the opposite of dread and hopelessness?
For some people it’s not the opposite at all. Here’s hoping it would be, but in the real world for some people it’s worse to be pregnant and married than it is for other people to be single and pregnant.
Doug
That is very kind of you. It may interest you to know that we weren’t planning on aborting anyway (he was worried about the psychological effects it might have on me–which, psychological effects or no, was sweet of him to consider), but I would not be able to give up a child for adoption to an agency least of all. We did have someone who was going to help us raise the child until we had finished part-timing our way through university. However, it is incredibly generous and kind of you to make such an offer.
Now, I am always very cautious about sex, but should I ever find myself in that situation again (heaven forbid), I am so happy to know that I will have you to talk to about it. Even finding ourselves at opposite ends of arguments, your kindness I find to be overwhelming.
Leah, thank you and I am thankful to hear that you have an option in case that does happen! (hugs)
(hugs back)
Oh and yes, the offer will still stand, no matter what.
Anonymous: Why do men who get women pregnant and don’t want to be fathers earn your disrespect and disdain, while women who get pregnant and choose not to be mothers are still respectable. Kind of a double-standard, huh?
No, it’s two different things in the first place. Non-custodial women parents who don’t contribute toward the care of their kids are going to get the same kind of disrespect as “deadbeat dads,” often.
If a man was pregnant and chose to have an abortion, especially before the time when the observer felt that abortion should be chosen if it’s elective, then he’d likely be seen as just as respectable as the woman.
A lot of us will be wearing orange jumpsuits. Hope to see you there!
Ya know, it’d only be two additional letters to be “prettyinorange.”
That isn’t my question, Bethany. My question concerns men getting “off the hook” easily and taking no responsibility, leaving the woman with little choice (if it were up to you). Imagine yourself in that situation. I’m imagining myself in it right now and I feel a sense of dread and hopelessness in my stomach. How do you feel?
Been there, done that. It is pitiful for the man to do such a thing. But I know that right now, AT THIS MOMENT, I have more hope in my heart than my daughter’s deadbeat dad. I KNOW that the day will come when my daughter will THANK me for being the only ADULT in the relationship. I KNOW there will come a day when she’ll go and see her dad and ask him “Was it more important for you to go out and party or travel around the country than to be there for me?”
It causes me great pain daily to think about what my daughter will go through when she finally understands who her dad is and why he abandoned her. Is it fair he gets to go live his life and do whatever he wants? Nope. Is it fair that I have to do everything and he does NOTHING? Nope.
But, at the end of the day, Leah…I KNOW I got the better end of the deal.
“Bethany, I don’t see it as ironic, just cognizant of the reality that men can’t be pregnant.”
Wouldn’t that be all the more reason for women to hold themselves even more accountable before having sex with someone they don’t know will be there for them the next day?
From several standpoints, definitely.
If we’re looking for “ideal” things then I’m on the same page as you, Bethany, before sex or befor pregnancy. I think prevention is better than abortion, and I think that people should be honest with each other and discuss what would be done if the woman gets pregnant, etc.
If the woman gets pregnant and is fine with that, then we’re still on the same page, but if she doesn’t want to be, then that’s where your feelings and mine diverge.
if you ever become pregnant again, by some accident, please, please consider giving the baby to me
Bethany, that it pretty darn awesome. No question that your beliefs are strong and that you’d walk the walk!
Since I’m on the pill (using it correctly, might I add) it’s about a .1% chance, making my chances of being abandoned pregnant (well, in reality it’s 0, but just for the sake of argument) .085%. In all liklihood, even if I did have a myriad of partners (which I don’t, never have, and never will) I would probably never get the opportunity to see if they are a man worthy of my respect.
Posted by: Leah at February 19, 2008 2:36 PM
Leah,
I’m sorry for loss, and the pain it caused you. It must have been a traumatic experience.
If you don’t mind, I’d like to give you some advice. A gambling analogy -thousands of people play the slots in Las Vegas and every so often, someone gets lucky and wins. You never know when it’s going to happen. The odds are even better that if you are having sex while on the pill, you are going to get pregnant. You can’t just pretend that it’s not going to happen to you. You never know. Every time you have sex, there is a chance you’ll get pregnant. You shouldn’t ignore the odds if you don’t want to have to make that tough decision.
Oh, and Leah, if you ever find yourself in that position again, you have TWO people to talk to.
I’ve got a little experience with it lol.
Leah: And keep it down about my secret identity, kay? The people of France must never know me for who I really am….
I figure you have a nice tunnel to Quebec City, PQ, and thus can avoid actually being in France for a time….
You shouldn’t ignore the odds if you don’t want to have to make that tough decision.
Wow, Janet, right on and well said!
It causes me great pain daily to think about what my daughter will go through when she finally understands who her dad is and why he abandoned her.
Elizabeth,
Your daughter is adorable and it sounds like you’re giving her enough LOVE for both of you, and then some!
! ! Elizabeth, what a dear, dear picture of your daughter. Love it.
Doug
Thanks, Doug.
Thank you, Janet and Doug..I just had those pictures done for her 2nd birthday! She’s such a ham when you put her in front of a camera!
Elizabeth,
I’ve got a 2 year boy for your sweet little miss!! :)
Awww, a PL love connection tehehehe.
We would have Jill to thank!! :)
Hehe…we’ll invite her to the wedding.
The little man is up from his nap, I must go! I have great news for him. ha
Lol Carla, show him the picture! :)
I must be off too, Biology class is calling my name!!
Elizabeth: Partying was the LEAST of my worries. Even being in my current non-pregnant state, I harbor no desire to party. Last time I went out to a bar I designated myself as the driver. :)
In any case, I’m glad things worked out alright for you. Your daughter, by the way, is ADORABLE!
Thank you very much for your kindness as well.
Janet: Thank you for your concern. Actually, the whole experience ended up being a positive one, and it greatly strengthened my relationship with my boyfriend. I feel extremely safe with him because not only is he of the 15% who didn’t run at the word “pregnant” he is one of the very few who offered full support. It’s amazing how much we learned about each other in going through trauma. My odds with him have already been excellent. :)
Doug: Oh Quebec… the poor quebecois are so abused by the rest of Canada. (I didn’t say I wasn’t laughing right along with them)
Is it fair he gets to go live his life and do whatever he wants? Nope. Is it fair that I have to do everything and he does NOTHING? Nope.
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Yes it is fair.
You chose to continue your pregnancy and you chose to keep your child. You do what you want with your life and he does what he wants with his. Sounds fair.
You chose to continue your pregnancy and you chose to keep your child. You do what you want with your life and he does what he wants with his. Sounds fair.
Is it fair for her daughter?
Asshole.
Is it fair for her daughter?
Asshole.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 19, 2008 6:44 PM
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BWAHAHAHAHA!
Touched a nerve?
I notice you avoided her question.
I notice you avoided her question.
Posted by: Bethany at February 19, 2008 8:34 PM
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OK, is it fair for her daughter?
I don’t know. Elizabeth hasn’t had to work a day to support her daughter, is it fair to send baby-daddy out to work to support her?
I don’t know. Elizabeth hasn’t had to work a day to support her daughter, is it fair to send baby-daddy out to work to support her?
Why not?
Laura, why is it fair to ridicule Elizabeth for not living on her own, yet it is somehow acceptable to totally defend the man who didn’t even stay around long enough to realize his daughter even exists? At least Elizabeth is going to college and trying to make a life for her child. What is that guy doing to help her child? Nothing.
How is that fair in your view?
Elizabeth, your daughter is so cute!
She is so lucky to have you as a mother!
“Having your mother raise your children for you?
Making the Dad be the Mom?
These aren’t good alternatives.”
Jacqueline – I normally love your posts, but I have to disagree here. Even some of us Catholic pro-lifers are extremely happy to have moms who watch our children while we do the necessary work of bringing home the bacon for the family; likewise for husbands who do so.
:)
I don’t know. Elizabeth hasn’t had to work a day to support her daughter, is it fair to send baby-daddy out to work to support her?
He made the baby too..the law says he has to support her. And I work everday to support her. Or could she wipe her own ass and feed herself when she popped out? I didn’t think so.
Maybe I don’t support her financially YET, but I’m working on it. A couple years won’t make a difference. Or maybe I could just throw some money at her and she could raise herself. I guess money is what raises a child….NOT.
Elizabeth, I don’t know this, and perhaps I missed it in the past – but does your daughter’s father pay child support?
Doug
Bethany and Anon,
Thank you for your kind words and for coming to my defense with Laura.
Leah,
Your bf sounds like a keeper! It is so nice that you have someone so supportive of you in your life! Also, after I grew up, I realized how trivial and stupid partying actually is. Then I think about the stupid crap I did before I had my daughter, and I cringe…and thank God He gave me her.
Elizabeth, I don’t know this, and perhaps I missed it in the past – but does your daughter’s father pay child support?
Doug,
No he does not…I just really want nothing to do with him or see him, so I just don’t bother going after it. I know I would never get it because he owes the state of Illinois like 25 grand for some obstruction of justice charge. He hasn’t paid the state..so I doubt he would pay me. While I would get pleasure in having him arrested for failure to pay child support, I just prefer not to consume my life with him or any sort of revenge on him. I don’t find revenge to be healthy especially because it won’t make him change…it won’t make him be there for his daughter. So I just let it go…..although sometimes…I would just love to do it so I could have him thrown in jail.
Hi Elizabeth,
Dittos on your daughter. She is adorable!
I just want to congratulate you on your choices and the life you have choosen to give your daughter. She is lucky to have you to!
Elizabeth: He’s a keeper alright! I can’t imagine the person I would be without him. I am so grateful for everything he has brought into my life.
I believe that God puts us through things like this for a reason. He gave you your daughter for a reason (which you see now) and He put me through the scare of potential pregnancy for a reason. It is up to those experiencing it whether these trials will be used to bring positivity into our lives, maintain stagnancy or (worst!) become negative because of them.
Partying is for losers! I have a house to myself for a week and I’m just chillin’… all by my lonesome. Oh yeah.
Lol, Leah…I love the days when it’s quiet and I’m alone in the house!
Ok, kids…it is SO time for bed!!! Talk to you all tomorrow!
Speaking of dads who are thrilled their wives are pregnant:
This weekend I went to a going-away party for a member of my lab. We went out to dinner and then went to a bowling alley and we met up with a few people from our “sister” lab (Enrico and Dan B) as well as a former lab member of ours (Seratna).
I may have spoken of this earlier in the summer, but Seratna and Enrico are hubby and wifey, and this summer Enrico got stuck in Canada after a microbiology conference in Toronto that he went to because of the fact he was *born* in Algeria and only lived there till he was a month old (he’s Italian, his parents were diplomats of some sort). ANYWHO, he eventually made it back to MN after nearly being sent back to Italy for a year before being allowed to return to the states.
Anywho, Seratna eventually left our lab because her grant ran out and she was getting ready to move to Italy if the US Government continued to be stupid. She stopped in every once and while after and I’d see her every now and then…but since I have since quit working there due to homework obligations I hadn’t seen her in several months.
So I saw her at the bowling alley and totally had noooooo idea that she was 7 months pregnant. Her husband, Enrico (who was playing fooz-ball and air-hockey with myself and other members of teh laaaabz) was sooooo excited. He was talking about how happy he and Seratna were and that he hopes they have a TON of kids. He told us that the baby was a boy and they were gonna name it “Leo” (pronouned “Lay-oh”) as that was a real “boy” name. :-p
Anywho, as the night continued I couldn’t help but noticing how affectionate he was towards Seratna, he was always giving her hugs, kissing her forehead or something, and rubbing her belly. It was the sweetest thing evar (so sweet I didn’t know whether to cry or throw-up from teh CUTEZ OVERLOADZ!), and it was so refreshing to see *that* kind of joy on a man’s face.
It was so sweet to see. It madeth me happeh.
Just thought I’d share. :)
That sounds so sweet, Rae!
He made the baby too..the law says he has to support her. And I work everday to support her. Or could she wipe her own ass and feed herself when she popped out? I didn’t think so.
Maybe I don’t support her financially YET, but I’m working on it. A couple years won’t make a difference. Or maybe I could just throw some money at her and she could raise herself. I guess money is what raises a child….NOT.
Laura has no frame of reference on how much time, energy, and support is necessary to raise a child, with or without you making your own money. Being child free must be such a breeze. The nights awake having to feed the baby or calm the baby down…the diaper changes every hour at first, then every 2-3 hours as they get older. Dealing with tantrums, kissing boo boos, fixing the hair, making sure baby is fed and hugged and read a story for bedtime… Those aren’t being done by old deadbeat dad now, are they?
But Laura doesn’t care about that. Dad is okay in her book.
Dad should be able to spread his wild oats without consequence, because in her mind the mommy should take care of everything, because mommies should be held to a higher standard than daddy, and they should be punished by having to take on all responsibility by themselves, when they actually love and appreciate the life within them.
Daddys should get a free pass, as long as they don’t want children, in Laura’s mind.
Good post, Bethany…Laura just has no idea.
Answer the question: Is it fair for HER DAUGHTER? Not Elizabeth- is it fair for her daughter to not have a father and to endure wondering if someone is wrong with her, since all her friends have daddies and she does not.
I reiterate: ASSHOLE.
Jacq,
If you communicate with your child about the reasons they don’t have a “daddy” in their life when they are very young, and continue the communication throughout the years, it really isn’t as big of an issue to them as it is to us.
“Jacqueline – I normally love your posts, but I have to disagree here. Even some of us Catholic pro-lifers are extremely happy to have moms who watch our children while we do the necessary work of bringing home the bacon for the family; likewise for husbands who do so.”
I couldn’t say I won’t be needing my mother at some point, but if you leave your children with her 40+ hours a week, who’s raising them? And while a stay-at-home parent is infinitely better than a non-parent, men aren’t mommies. They can’t breastfeed for one. Secondly, why are these husbands incapable of providing?
Anonymous-
I disagree- explaining to a little girl all day long does not compensate for the lack of a father. And explaining this when she’s not young enough to understand doesn’t help the situation any. My friends who had fathers that took off told me they thought something was wrong with them, that they weren’t good enough, or their father would have stayed. All the explanations of “It’s not you, it’s him” doesn’t replace what she sees that most other people have.
Furthermore, that’s not what studies show. Studies show self-esteem in young women and positive behavior are correlated to the approval of a father. Young girls who don’t have that approval seek male affirmation in other ways- early sexual relationships for one.
Abandoned little girls will inevitably deal with abandonment issues because they’ve been abandoned. No amount of explaination will change this.
By the way, Elizabeth- I hope you pay no mind to those that would knock your decision to stay at home while you complete school. I think it’s awesome that your little girl has grandparents to adore her daily, and you’re ability to provide will be so much better after you graduate. I think it’s a wise investment. A hearty “bite me” to Laura who would chastize that choice.
“Secondly, why are these husbands incapable of providing?”
Engineering jobs outsourced to China; therefore, the need to go back to school for “re-training”, if you will.
I don’t think it is necessary to link any aspect of the pro-life cause to the need for mothers to be stay-at-home 24/7. It will just alienate people who might otherwise be sympathetic. Mothers who work, and grandmoms and dads, can still provide excellent care, love, guidance, and morals to children.
JMO –
S.
Also, Jacqueline, breastfeeding only lasts a short time in most cases. For me, 11 months and 14 months, to be exact (which is way more than most). When the children are past that age, the breasts become a non-issue.
By the way, I’m very much a breastfeeding advocate, and as a part-time working mom, I had to do a lot of pumping, which is a huge pain. But worth it for their health.
Although I wouldn’t link the pro-life issue to the stay-at-home issue, I still agree with you that a dad does not have the “multitasking” skills that a mom has, in general, to be a full-time parent and the “manager” of a home; I’m infinitely better than my husband at it. But, he’s not too bad either!
Jacq,
From experience, it worked for me.
I’ve taught my child to be comforted in the strength of the Lord. No man can take His place.
Psalm 68: 5
A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows, is God in his holy habitation.
My child has the BEST Father, ever!
Thank you for your kinds words Jacqueline and Anon…my daughter has a wonderful grandfather as a father figure and she has 3 wonderful uncles who love her to death. She’s got a lot of positive male influences in her life, and while I know that they can’t take the place of an actual father..I hope it will show her she has many people in her life that love her.
I don’t think it is necessary to link any aspect of the pro-life cause to the need for mothers to be stay-at-home 24/7.
I’m definitely not linking the two. This is just my opinion. I think both moms being moms and dads being there are vastly underrated.
My child has the BEST Father, ever!
True, but even Jesus had an Earthly father.
I thorougly enjoyed reading your opinion on the pro-life/pro-choice issue in Juno, and I believe Brianna put it perfectly in her response to you. Juno was entertaining to say the least, but like many entertaining movies, it was unrealistic. I had a very difficult time watching the half-hearted reaction that the parents gave to Juno when she announced her teenage pregnancy. It is interesting to see pro-choice/feminists trash this film because of its apparent pro-life slant. Technically Juno makes her own personal choice as to whether or not to keep the child. Sure, the inside of the abortion clinic in the film feels depressing, but I do not think it is meant to comment on the issue of abortion itself. It is simply another way for the film to make its audience laugh. If there are jokes embellishing the interaction between Juno and her parents when she first announces her pregnancy, why not fill the waiting room of the adoption clinic with humor as well? The movie is a comedy, and gags are necessary to keep the story rolling. Ellen Page just recently was asked in the Washington Post whether she believed the film to be pro-life. She heartedly responded that it was in no way a pro-life film, as it was the character’s choice to keep the baby. What was most unusual about her response was this apology she made: “Like, I’m really sorry to everyone that she doesn’t have an abortion, but that’s not what the film is about.” Why is she apologizing? Must she stay as far away as possible to the pro-life stance as to not be ostracized by the strong pro-choice presence in today’s media?
is it fair for her daughter to not have a father and to endure wondering if someone is wrong with her, since all her friends have daddies and she does not.
No, no, heck no it’s not fair. I am glad that Elizabeth’s daughter has Elizabeth for a mother, but life is not always “fair” and I think it’s too bad for any kids to be lacking a parent.
Doug