Back in the day pregnant mothers wore tents with neck bows after they began showing.
The following photos, courtesy of x17online, are of “mega-pregnant” actress Minnie Driver at a Malibu beach on August 24.
I’m all for modesty but have a hard time disapproving of today’s moms showing off their baby bumps. Do you consider baring one’s prenatal baby risque or a proud and natural advertisement for motherhood?
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Let it all hang out, baby! (pun intended) Stuff like that is comfortable, and cool in hot weather. Nay sayers should stfu. I’m glad we’ve come so far, and have no desire to go back to tents, ankle-length skirts, and other such ridiculous things. You do realize at one time people used to bathe only once a year because it was considered immoral and sinful?
Yikes! That’s what I look like in a two piece NOW! And I’m not pregnant! Wear it while you can!!!!
It’s fine to show off your pregnancy but it’s just wrong when they actually sell the space for advertisement.
Beats heck out of seeing a beer belly any day of the week. Let it show!
Yeah, it may not be “poetry in motion”, but for the sake of making pregnancy more acceptable I would never complain about it.
“Do you consider baring one’s prenatal baby risque or a proud and natural advertisement for motherhood?”
Clearly the second one. Also, remember that the revelation of skin doesn’t equate to promiscuity. In some parts of the world, naturist beaches are the norm, and entire families go, just as they do here. And when they go, they do the same things other people do: wade in the surf, sunbathe, throw a ball around, Sudoku puzzles. The only difference is they’re not wearing suits.
The only time I wear bikinis is when I’m pregnant. I love the way I look pregnant! My belly isn’t an issue like it is post partum (blech) when I have to go back to covering it up instead of showing it off. :D
personally I would NEVER walk around at the beach like this while pregnant.
I really think that there are better ways to promote motherhood and pregnancy.
To my mind, this is immodest but then I also believe bikini’s are immodest (I don’t expect anyone to agree with me here).
It’s not that I think a pregnant woman’s body is shameful (because I don’t and I always thought I looked great pregnant) – I just think we need to draw the line somewhere and we’ve already passed the line long ago regarding modesty.
I mean what would be the equivalent of promoting fatherhood in this situation?
mk: you are too funny!
personally I would NEVER walk around at the beach like this while pregnant.
I totally would. But then I try to spend as much time in a bikini as possible, since my beach time is scarce. Sometimes I wear them around my apartment when cleaning or working from home, just so I don’t feel like I wasted the money I spent on them, to be honest. It cuts down on AC bills too, because I can just spritz myself with some water if it gets unbearably hot. Kidding. Sort of. ;)
I figure if I was ever visibly pregnant, I’d probably be wearing unfortunately tight clothes, because I’d wear my normal ones just about until the seams ripped. I’d get one of those tube things that go over your pants so you don’t have to button them, and that would be my maternity wardrobe adjustment for as long as I could swing it. I hate spending money on temporary things.
I say go swim naked. My family, friends and I all do. I mean, how perverted have we become as a society if every time we see the naked human form we think, “SEX SEX SEX”? I know I don’t When I see my naked 60-something aunt sex is the furthest thing on my mind. Like what’s the deal with people saying breast feeding is obscene? That’s there “natural” function. Like sex’s natural function is to create a baby. There you go. Either support the bodies natural function or not.
Plus I think if you tried you could look even more immodest fully clothed.
Please excuse my typos.
Huh. I think it’s cute in the smaller bump stage.
I think it’s cute in the bigger bump stage too Carla. Is it just me or does anyone else see the outline of the baby? I think I see the space between the baby’s head and body. Aww : )
actually it isn’t that I think sex sex sex
I just believe that we should cover our bodies to a certain degree.
I was taught that bikini’s are immodest and to me it feels like I’m wearing my bra and panties around outside!
I wear a tankini top and high cut swim shorts
that works for me
BTW, I never went swimming when I was pregnant – I was too busy barfing most of the time….
And Jess it does look like you can imagine the outline of the baby in Minnie’s stomach!
I had my husband photograph me in a bikini when I was 9 months pregnant. I put the pics in the kids’ baby books. I also swam in a bikini a couple times a week for exercise. It was the only comfortable exercise I could do. Pregnancy is normal. period. If folks can tolerate looking at women, then they should be able to tolerate looking at pregnant women and nursing moms etc. It is just a normal part of life. There is no reason to be so uptight about pregnancy.
Patricia I imagine you’re far too cold way up there in Canada to not always be bundled up. I went to Canada once and it was very cold and snowy.
Guess where this is:
http://www.canadianmountain.com/TA/images/ice%20castle.jpg
That’s right. Canada.
Huh. I think it’s cute in the smaller bump stage.
Posted by: Carla at August 30, 2008 7:04 PM
Me too. I don’t see it as risque, but I think I prefer a more covered look for the beach.
Patricia I imagine you’re far too cold way up there in Canada to not always be bundled up. I went to Canada once and it was very cold and snowy.
Posted by: Jess at August 30, 2008 7:26 PM
actually our summers are quite hot and humid Jess
Today it is 26C which is about 79 F! That’s just a nice temperature! it is supposed to be 35C next week which will be about 95F and that will be awful for us as it will be very humid.
I won’t go swimming in my friends pool unless the water temperature is 95 – at least! lol
I remember going to Los Angeles in March and going swimming. These guys came up to my group and asked us if we were from Canada! It was pretty funny. They told us NO ONE goes swimming in Feb/Mar without a wet suit! We thought the water was pretty warm!!
I also swam in a bikini a couple times a week for exercise. It was the only comfortable exercise I could do.
hippie: that was probably the best exercise you could get! All the effects of gravity would be off your body and I would think it would be very relaxing.
I laboured my third baby in a labour tub – filled with nice warm water! Very comforting until they pulled me out to have the baby! I felt like I weighed two tons!!
Sorry Jess. I was as big as a house 4 times near the end and wouldn’t have been in a bikini. :)
Hi Patricia,
Had a waterbirth with my fourth. So awesome…wish I had known sooner!!
Pregnant women in bikinis are cool with me :)
I’m probably going to get flack for this but I don’t think bikinis are appropriate attire even for girls or women who are not pregnant :) I think that pregnant women are beautiful but I don’t care to see a lot of skin out in public where anyone is concerned, including men. There is something to be said for leaving a little something to the imagination. I think that women can look very feminine and attractive and still dress modestly, and no, I am not sexually inhibited. I think that it is ironic that pregnant fashions are so revealing anymore — that the pregnant belly is “in your face” so to speak but yet if someone wants to get rid of it then it is perfectly okay to do so.
For those Catholics out there, the Blessed Mother talked to the little children at Fatima about souls who go to hell because they had no one to pray for them. She mentioned fashions that were offensive to God, among other grievous sins.
Just so there is no misunderstanding — I am not judging anyone!!!
I’ve seen some pregnant Hollywood stars that looked like they worked a street corner. Short shorts, brief top, and a very pregnant abdoman hanging out.
Incredibly tacky.
I can’t fit in my old maternity clothes. Talk about depressing!
When God comes down to carry my 9lb, 4oz. baby for me, he can go ahead and cover it up with uncomfortable, bulky, restrictive swim attire if my bikini so offends Him.
Until then, when I am heavy with child, I will don my “skimpy” suit. It’s not as though I’m not whipping out the boobs he gave me every now and again in public to feed my boy anyway…it can’t offend him THAT much, since breastfeeding was His idea in the first place.
Xalisae,
Its interesting that in some cultures women are covered head to toe but will whip out a breast or two in public to feed a baby.
Eileen, 9:02PM
My opinion is if you’ve got it, flaunt it. If not, cover it up. Ain’t no one who wants to look at it!
Immodest attire is a problem when it is used to deliberately arouse concupiscence. I wouldn’t worry about that in the case of pregnant women.
I was very proud of my pregnant shape but didn’t want to reveal it as in bare skin.
But I don’t appreciate the short shorts either. Sometimes I go shopping with my 17 year old sister and remark to her about the “denim underwear” the kids seem so fond of these days. As with most things, I think there is a happy medium between 1800’s school marm and hollywood hooker, and finding and embracing that medium would do us all a world of good. It’ll be a cold day you-know-where before my daughter will be wearing the latest fashionable postage stamp-sized bits of cloth. I don’t allow Bratz dolls in our home, either.
X, I agree with you there!
How do I feel about it? I’ll just let my own baby bump do the talkin’.
Aside from the fact that it would be too uncomfortable in the summer, I think that the most flattering fashions were medieval dress. I remember seeing some paintings at Neufschwanstein (sp?) in Germany where the women wore those gowns that hugged the figure, had long tight sleeves and flowing, a-line skirts. Their hair was long and loose or in a braid. The paintings depicted characters from Wagnerian operas. I am happy to be living in the 21st century but think medieval fashion was beautiful and feminine.
For once I refuse to comment as any answer given to the question is a slippery slope no winner.
HisMan-
Be not afraid…..:)
X,
Exactly. I pointed out on a previous thread that nothing is more alluring and attractive than age appropriate clothing. One need not look like a member of the British royal family, when dressing age appropriate!
Some of those upsweep hairdos and huge black hats! Good grief, they look like the 1800s mortician’s wife.
How is this for a fashion statement:
I was looking at sale shoes with my 4-yr old daughter who spied the nylon footies that are available to use while trying on shoes. She loves those things and had to put them on underneath her sandals. She walked around the mall wearing those things — she looked like an elderly lady wearing hose and orthopedic sandals!
Lol, the only thing that offends me about the picture in this thread is the mismatched bikini. Minnie Driver, COME ON! I mean unless she couldn’t see what she was putting on which is entirely possible with that huge belly. But I’m just picky like that. Other then that, you go girl! I was never preggo during summer months sooo I always wore the winter maternity clothes. As for now, no more bikinis for meee, cause I don’t think the world wants to see my stretch marks. :/
Minnie looks fine. However, I am old-fashioned about modesty in pregnancy and would rather see expectant moms in a one-piece swimsuit while in public. They can still flaunt their baby bulge proudly, but it has a hint of modesty with the extra fabric which is my preference.
It seems unmatched two-piece swimsuits are the latest craze. Check out Rhianna’s swimsuit at this link earlier this month:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1044212/Just-friends-Rihanna-Chris-Brown-love-cuddle-Caribbean.html
OK:
To me, a pregnant woman is sacred. Not that all women aren’t. I just think there’s something very, very special about a women who has a precious innocent life inside of her. It’s like she’s holy or set apart and almost unapproachable. Having said that I am for modesty, not so much that wearing a bikini is dirty or anything, just that, a pregnant women needs to be protected, held in high honor, put on a pedastal.
BUT,
I think that young womaen need role models to show that motherhood and pregnancy is natural and beautiful and part of life and way cool. This to counter the Madison Ave. image that every women has to be 5’10” and weight 100lbs which I think is unrealistic and very unhealthy.
I think the one-piece idea suit is a good compromise.
So, that’s my slippery slope answer and you can now beat me up. I’m not a woman so what do I know about such things?
Well put, HisMan. :)
Eileen I’ll don a medieval dress if you do it too. I like fall fashion best. I love long flowing skirts and big sweaters. It’s too bad I couldn’t find any decent long skirts : ( I have a nice sweater supply accumulating though. A nice sweater and a good pair of jeans and a few funky pieces of jewelry will suffice fine : )
If I ever had about two thousand bucks to blow on clothes I’d probably buy all these:
http://www.modcloth.com/store/ModCloth/Womens/Dresses
And some jeans to wear under them. I always wear leggings or jeans under dresses.
Will you guys stop with the “whipping out the breast” thing, already?
Babies need to eat. What, should mom go into seclusion for months because American culture oversexualizes women so that even nurturing, innocent acts seem obscene?
A wartime President:
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/08/a-president-for.html
The GOP platform says abortion should be illegal in cases of rape AND when the pregnant woman’s life is at stake.
Sarah Palin’s religious connections:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/29/163234/559/495/579213
Getting back to the topic, here’s a true story:
When I was a little kid I used to bite my nails. So my parents told me that the body does not digest them and that if I went on biting them they would form big balls of nail-material in my belly.
Well that night they went to a party and took me along, and there was a woman there in the late stage of pregnancy. It seems I walked up to her, poked her belly and said “I know what YOU’VE been doing!” Meaning biting her nails.
Continuing the discussion of Ramesh Ponnuru’s book from previous thread:
Valerie and bmmg, I wish I had time to read everything I want to read. Based on Ponnuru’s articles and his reviews at amazon.com I don’t think I have time for his book.
I HAVE, however, read the full title. And the title specifically identifies Democrats as part of the Party of Death. Sorry, Naamen. Maybe you are right that the text of the book distinguishes Dems from the “PoD” but if it does then he’s trying to have it both ways. The full title of the book is
The Party of Death: The Democrats, the Media, the Courts, and the Disregard for Human Life.
Anyway, you who have read it please answer three questions: 1. Does RP support preventing abortion by means of violence like Paul Hill? How about by lesser violence like kidnapping the patient? By breaking the law in any way? If not, why not? Does he consider any of these questions? 2. Does RP consider the abortion-on-demand-is-justifiable-homicide-because-the-person-killed-is-inside-the-patient’s-body-and-engaged-in-bloodstream-to-bloodstream-exchange-against-her-will-and-is-getting-ready-to-inflict-L&D-on-her-against-her-will argument? What does he think of it? 3. Does RP favor criminalizing abortion patients like in the Philippines or just providers? What about self-aborters?
Well, a couple more questions: 4. Does RP consider the argument that withholding euthanasia from a patient who rationally wants it may be a violation of the patient’s freedom? Or does he just mention the argument and say “see–Party of Death!”? 5. Generally does he consider serious pro-choice arguments and say why he thinks they are wrong or does he just state them and say they are examples of the Ideology of the PoD? 6. Does he use the phrase “pro-abortion” to refer to pro-choice? Does he distinguish between the Party of Death and the Party of Freedom?
I guess it all collapses into one question: is this review correct or wrong?
http://www.amazon.com/review/R3GQ14KA4PBNX2/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R3GQ14KA4PBNX2
Jess, I bet you would look great! :)
SoMG, read the book. Not all reviews are dependable. The Daily Kos is hardly a reliable source.
Eileen, have YOU read the book? If yes, do agree or disagree with the review? Which BTW is from amazon, not daily Kos.
If the review I posted is correct, then I don’t have time for the book. I’ll only read it if people say the review is wrong and explain why. And maybe not even then. Someone has to convince me he’s not just parroting the RTL party line. I already know the RTL party line. What’s in it BESIDES the RTL party line?
Eileen: I’m with you on this one!
Swimsuit shopping is a nightmare for me with 3 girls. I can sew but I guess I’m going to have to learn how to sew swim suits. We have the added problem that all of us are very long waisted. In order to get the proper length I wold have to purchase a size 12 suit and I wear size 2 or 4!
HisMan: I also agree with you. Nobody has beat you up! And what do you know about it – well you are a man so it matters what men think about these fashions. More men should speak their mind.
When I was growing up my mom would never let me wear miniskirts or halter tops. As Catholics my mom always would ask me what I thought the Blessed Virgin Mary would think about certain outfits (re:modesty). The only thing I ever really wanted that I never got was go-go boots! Isn’t that a hoot!
Carla: did you have a birthing tub – that is you gave birth to your baby underwater? I would be interested to know if that’s ok with you!
SoMG,
I’ve never even heard of the book…but from the review I would say that he is on the money about the “false choice”.
There is no choice there. It is a human being. This is why I respect your stand on abortion. You admit the truth. Once you do that, you take away our argument that it is human life and homicide.
However, it leaves open the argument that bodily autonomy is not a more sacred right than life.
Once we start focusing on that and quite trying to deny the childs humanity, we might get somewhere. Or maybe not, but at least the argument would be honest.
As it is, we are still arguing about whether the earth is flat.
My cousin was at a swimming pool with her 4 year old a few years back. The little girl was wearing a two piece suit.
A man started taking pictures of her, focusing on her derriere. When my cousin reported him, he was asked to leave the pool, but my cousin was told that he couldn’t be arrested as there is no law against taking pictures.
It was then that I realized, wearing a bikini isn’t only about “the woman and her morals” but also about the opportunity for others to act immorally.
I’ve never allowed my daughter to wear a two piece bathing suit after that. Even now she chooses to wear one of my one pieces with the little skirt attached…
I’m not making a moral statement about the rightness or wrongness of wearing a bikini, just saying that it’s not only the woman that is affected by it.
I don’t want to contribute to anyone looking at my daughter (or myself) that way. It’s not my daughters motives I worry about. It’s chester the molesters.
I love the human body, but we live in a culture where it is all too easily turned into an object and baring it unnecessarily only adds to the problem.
That said, I think the pregnant body is amazing!
Love it! Luckily I was not “that” pregnant during the summer w/ my 3rd child but I wore my normal 2 piece bathing suit during the first and second trimesters and even I (my harshest critic) thought I looked cute in it! (Not so much now–when the baby is 1 1/2 LOL)
I agree mk.
My girls are quite pretty and it does affect the boys when they dress in bikinis.
I often watched how the girls and boys from the high school interacted when they had a gymn swim class at our local rec center. The girls looked like they felt uncomfortable around the guys wearing their bikinis. I mean, really it IS the equivalent of walking around in your underwear. Most of the girls wrapped themselves in towels and would get into the water very quickly.
To me, this was the girls natural modesty at work and society was busy killing it through the convention of the bikini.
Ummm…I hate to break this to you…but I don’t think modesty had that much to do with it. Now, insecurity and a bad body image…I’d be more inclined to believe. That being said, I usually look for a one-piece when shopping for swimsuits for my daughter, but oddly enough, the two-piece tankini (with an included skirt) actually covered her better than the one-piece suits I found this year.
mk and Patricia, you illustrated my points exactly!
And…”justifiable homicide”…against one’s own baby? How disgusting. It’s terribly, tragically sad that the idea that a mother should protect and nurture her child at any cost (rather than kill it) now has to be legislated because basic human decency is so lacking.
SoMG ALERT. WARNING! WARNING!
Please don’t allow SoMG to change the topic or become the center of attention.
SoMG,
I know that the review is on Amazon and not The Daily Kos. You posted a link earlier to The Daily Kos. I simply stated that it is not reliable.
You refuse to read a book based on a review by a reader through Amazon. You are the one with the questions so why don’t you read the book?
Sorry, HisMan.
Eh. That’s all I have to say about SoMG’s warped world view. I feel kinda sorry for him though…knowing that your mother would’ve had no qualms with killing you if your timing had just been a little different must surely have a negative impact on a child’s mental well-being.
Eileen, I don’t have time for Ramesh Ponnuru’s book. I base this not on one review but on several, including positive ones. It just doesn’t look like there’s anything interesting in it that I don’t already know about. Anyone who has read it is welcome to correct me if I’m wrong.
Xalisae, you wrote: “And…”justifiable homicide”…against one’s own baby? How disgusting. ”
I think what you find disgusting is the fact that it’s a pro-choice argument you cannot refute. Why is letting your child die when you could save it with a blood or organ donation any less disgusting? But no one says that should be illegal.
Because it doesn’t HAVE to be made illegal. I’ve heard MANY stories about parents or siblings giving up blood or organs for their family members in need. Even STRANGERS sometimes have more compassion for people in need of organs or blood than your mother had for your own brothers and sisters.
Xalisae, by that argument abortion doesn’t need to be made illegal eather because I’ve heard many stories about pregnant women choosing to keep their pregnancies. Nor should we have laws against truancy because I’ve heard many stories about children choosing to go to school. For that matter, murder shouldn’t be illegal either because I’ve heard stories about people choosing not to commit murder.
Oh my gosh, X, you make an excellent point –the post at 9:43 AM
Ok, then let me rephrase that: number of stories I’ve heard about parents letting their kids die in such situations= none. Number of abortions daily= thousands. So, yes, something needs to be done.
Patricia that’s disgusting! I think the perverts should be punished though, not the women. If that were me or my child I would have grabbed his camera and bashed him over the head with it until they both broke.
There’s a story about the Israeli Prime Minister Goldie Myer (sp, sorry) about how there was a lot of violence against women going on at night and the male members of her cabinet suggested putting a curfew on women. She said, “If men are the ones causing the problem we should put a curfew on them.” But this of course would not fly in this country, where a woman’s sole purpose in life is to make a man’s life easy.
And Patricia, were you saying it was the little girls fault the man was a pervert? Do you believe raped women bring it on themselves?
Xalisae, you wrote: “number of stories I’ve heard about parents letting their kids die in such situations= none. ”
Two questions:
1. Do you think if such a thing did occur–a parent let his/her kid die rather than donate blood/organs–you would necessarily hear about it? You may ask, what kind of parent would do such a thing? Well, how about a Jehovah’s Witness? Their religion requires it. (Transfusions are forbidden).
2. Suppose it has never happened. Should it be allowed to happen even once? If you answer is “of course not” then why no law against it? And don’t say “It just never occurred to anyone” because the makers of transplantation/transfusion policy have always been very careful to preserve the donor’s right to refuse to donate under any and all circumstances, for any reason or for no reason. It has most certainly occurred to them.
I’ll be sure to give you a healthy dose of my moral outrage if/when I ever hear of a rash of such cases. As it stands, though, it seems denying life to one’s children is only seen as generally acceptable behavior for those who have yet to be born. But, you’re neglecting a fact I happen to place quite a great deal of importance on, that being, transplants/infusions denied are not cases of a mother being DIRECTLY responsible for a child’s death, as is the case with abortion, and it’s STILL seen as reprehensible.
Jess I’m not sure what you are referring to here. I didn’t post about the guy with the camera.
That was mk. And, I certainly don’t think the little girl was responsible for the man taking pictures of her.
As for rape – it is usually a crime of agression involving sex as a means of control. Therefore, my understanding of rape is that skimpy clothing is probably not a significant factor, but I don’t know.
That being said, it might be in the case of date rape although I believe there are likely other factors involved as well, including the use of alcohol, drugs and a man with a problem or two, to say the least.
I believe skimpy dress IMO contributes to the objectification of women and makes men think of women less as persons and more as a collection of certain body parts. I rather like the idea that a man might find me to be an interesting person that he can talk to, open his heart to and discuss with and want my company.
SoMG, you there? Care to continue this discussion? Why is the direct taking of a child’s life by its mother through abortion more acceptable than a child’s life which is ended through a parent’s lack of medical action? Is it the fact that you can actually see the kid wasting away in a hospital bed? Is that why abortion proponents hate campaigns that show the public images of fetal remains so much?
I would rather see that than the top of simeines thong hanging out of their pants!
Xalisae, you wrote: “Why is the direct taking of a child’s life by its mother through abortion more acceptable than a child’s life which is ended through a parent’s lack of medical action? ”
For three reasons, and I bet you can guess what they are. If you can’t, scroll down, I’ll answer it below.
Three reasons: 1. In the abortion case, the fetus is inside the body of a woman who doesn’t want it there; 2. the fetus is engaged in bloodstream-to-bloodstream exchange with her against her will; and 3. the fetus is preparing to subject her to major medical/surgical trauma against her will.
This is such a tabloid non-issue. Jeez! She’s having the kid, and now you want to tell her how to dress while she’s pregnant! Fascism is alive and well.
because yo la – there are other things that are important too
it’s part of our culture today to expose as much body as possible
just because we can do something doesn’t mean it should be done………
Wow…I actually agree with YLT about something…
wow! The more I look at that picture of Minnie, the more amazing pregnancy looks! The side view is so wonderful – I can imagine her baby safe inside her, listening to the sounds at the beach. Pretty darn cool, IMO!
My friend is over here and just told me a great joke, here goes:
A little girl went up to Barack and said:
“Mr. Obama if deer and cows and horses eat the same stuff, why does their poop all look different? A deer’s poop looks like pellets, a cows poop looks like a patty and horse poop looks like clumps of hay?”
Obama looked her in the eye, and said:, “uh, um, oh, um, well, uh, that’s a very, very good question, one that scientists and biologists have been contemplating for centuries, and uh, ooh, um, and frankly, the answer to that question is above my pay grade”.
The little girl then looked him straight in the eye and asked: “Mr. Obama, how do you think you can run the country when you don’t know $hit”?
In the Beginning was the Turd.
SoMG: “Three reasons: 1. In the abortion case, the fetus is inside the body of a woman who doesn’t want it there;”
“I dont want my child in the house. Get out!”
You need to justify your reasoning.
SoMG: “2. the fetus is engaged in bloodstream-to-bloodstream exchange with her against her will;”
First of all…name me one woman who had an abortion because she doesnt want her blood exchanged.
Second of all…you yourself admited that when the sacrifice to bodily autonomy is so insignificant in the face of the alternative the sacrifice is indeed justified. If you remember, you used breast feeding as that basis. I argued before that breast feeding is much more perceptible than the “blood stream to blood stream transfer,” which is by its nature not noticable.
SoMG: “and 3. the fetus is preparing to subject her to major medical/surgical trauma against her will.”
Its a horrible accident SoMG. The best option for all parties is to have a C-section at around 33ish weeks, (of course after steroid treatments to the preborn.)
Its like the two girls impaled by a street sign, or the conjoined twins who have the two surgical operations, one that kills the weaker twin, and one that saves both, but with longer recovery.
Any ethical doctor would of course take the course to the protection of the most overall rights in a horrible accident scenario.
Do you think you have the right to zap someone with a phaser set on “kill” to prevent them from bumping into you on the street?
By the way…”subject” is essentially personification when you apply it to a preborn. Remember that a preborn, much like a newborn, has no real will, seeing that it is not self aware.
Oliver, inside your house is different from inside your body. Remember?
You wrote: “name me one woman who had an abortion because she doesnt want her blood exchanged.”
“I don’t want to give/make life right now” is a common reason and it’s essentially the same although “sustain” would be more correct than “make”.
What I said about breastfeeding is I’m undecided on that one. As long as we don’t force blood donations I’m not willing to force transplacental blood-chemistry-exchange.
You will keep bringing up these conjoined twins. I swore I’d never discuss them again. OK. 1. With conjoined twins, neither is inside the other’s body. 2. If as you suggest there is an ethical obligation to choose the operation that saves both but is worse for the one who would be the survivor of the other operation, than why doesn’t the same obligation mandate forced blood/kidney donations, which are also the operation that saves both people involved but is worse for the one who would be the survivor of the other operation (which in this case happens to be the null operation–do nothing, let the patient-in-need die)?
And if you’re going to force a c-section on someone you must also force donation of a kidney which is quite a bit easier to recover from because other than the skin and facia and abdominal wall you don’t need to cut anything but ducts and connective tissue while in a c-section the uterus needs to heal as well as the abdominal wall.
You wrote: “Do you think you have the right to zap someone with a phaser set on “kill” to prevent them from bumping into you on the street?”
No, but to stop them from inflicting harm equivalent to unwelcome pregnancy and childbirth, yes.
Yo La Tango,
Nobody is SAYING we should attempt to tell pregnant women how to dress. Is this not America anymore? Are we not allowed to share our opinions? She can dress however she wants, and we can say whatever we want about how she chooses to dress. Most of the comments here have been very polite and kind, not to mention non-judgemental of how a pregnant woman chooses to dress. As you have read, most of the comments were saying *I* would/would not dress that way, but she can do what she wants. Grow up, expressing your opinion is in NO WAY fascism.
YO LO,
This is such a tabloid non-issue. Jeez! She’s having the kid, and now you want to tell her how to dress while she’s pregnant! Fascism is alive and well.
You should try an experiment…it might be fun…everyday try to say one “positive” thing. It only hurts a little at first, but gets easier with time…really!
There is, absolutely, no human being more beautiful than a pregnant woman, who at that moment is indeed the essence of the embodiment of the wonderful miracle of the perpetuation of human life.
Mothers of America, mothers of the world, show the beauty of your pregnancy for all to see, for all to indulge in it!
Mother, a woman that is just pregnant?
Absolutely yes, for you women become mothers since the very minuscule fraction of time when the fusion of the egg and the sperm materializes, thus creating –not a rabbit, or a cricket, or a chicken, or a sardine– but a live human being, as the DNA of the newly created zygote categorically proves it: it is a baby!
Yes a baby, and not a body-part of the carrying mother, for –since the very moment of fusion of the egg and the sperm into one– a living human entity distinct from the mother is created. And she or he is so distinct, that the carrying mother cannot be ever cloned from any tissue or bodily-fluid of the baby in gestation, as the mother could be cloned from even the smallest specimen of her own body-tissues or bodily-fluids, be a speck of dandruff, or a droplet of urine, or even the smallest smear of her own feces. But never, ever, will she be cloned from the baby she is carrying; DNA science and technology definitely proves it.
Blessed –by the powers that be, physical or metaphysical– be you, pregnant mothers, for you are the most beautiful beings on Earth.
And blessed be you, Minnie Driver, for showing your beautiful pregnancy at that Malibu beach.
“The girls looked like they felt uncomfortable around the guys wearing their bikinis. I mean, really it IS the equivalent of walking around in your underwear.”
Then isn’t having BOYS walking around in swimsuits the same as THEM walking around in their underwear?
I remember this from fifth or sixth grade. My elementary school had a policy that in the hot weather boys could wear shorts but girls could not. The principal explained this over the PA (euphemizing nicely) that when boys see girls in shorts, they “think of all the fun they’ll be having during the summer.” Well, if that’s the case, then the boys shouldn’t be allowed to wear shorts, either, since then the GIRLS would be distracted (or are we still pretending that the female of the species isn’t visually stimulated?). The policy was unfair to girls and highly insulting to boys.
And that pervert at the beach could just as easily have done the same thing if the four-year-old girls had been wearing two pairs of overalls and hiking boots.
Just heard you on the radio — GOOD JOB!
Thanks for bringing this issue to the fore.
somg @ 4:30pm
this is garbage out
you know the saying garbage in, garbage out!
“The girls looked like they felt uncomfortable around the guys wearing their bikinis. I mean, really it IS the equivalent of walking around in your underwear.”
Then isn’t having BOYS walking around in swimsuits the same as THEM walking around in their underwear?
yes, I would say so. Both sexes should be a little more modest.
My big issue is with guys who drive their trucks without a shirt on in the summer. I might be persuaded if they had something nice to look at but most men don’t seem to understand that we really don’t want to see a beer belly or a hairy back…..!!!!
And that pervert at the beach could just as easily have done the same thing if the four-year-old girls had been wearing two pairs of overalls and hiking boots.
Posted by: bmmg39 at August 31, 2008 10:04 PM
i agree. It’s likely the person has some kind of problem to begin with….
“The girls looked like they felt uncomfortable around the guys wearing their bikinis. I mean, really it IS the equivalent of walking around in your underwear.”
Whenever I’m walking around in my underwear I’m like, “What’s you’re problem? It’s just like wearing my bathing suit.”
But then again I’m the kinda person who sees the glass as half full =D
“yes, I would say so. Both sexes should be a little more modest.
My big issue is with guys who drive their trucks without a shirt on in the summer. I might be persuaded if they had something nice to look at but most men don’t seem to understand that we really don’t want to see a beer belly or a hairy back…..!!!!”
Patricia I think most guys see their value in their jobs or cars or houses or whatever and see a woman’s value solely in their body, and for some insane reason believe that we should make it our life’s work to be ascetically pleasing to them. My (beautiful) friend told me she was walking down the street and some fugly man yelled from his truck, “Hey fat ass”. You know what I think? We should give those men a taste of their own medicine. The next time I see a man walking down the street I’m going to yell something derogatory about his appearance.
No. I can’t do that I would feel too bad for the man. It really blows that some people can be so heartless.
My (beautiful) friend told me she was walking down the street and some fugly man yelled from his truck, “Hey fat ass”.
That’s just NASTY! I”m sorry for your friend. That guy’s a classless jerk.
Dustin Hoffman said when he was preparing for his role as Tootsie, he went out dressed up as a woman. He was horrified to see how men checked him out and how he was “rated” by men based on how he looked. He said he would never be able to survive as a woman – he felt that he was judged soley by his appearance.
I feel pain when I see pictures of women that extended. My stomach muscles completely tore apart during the last two months of my first pregnancy. Every bump upon my abdomen caused my skin to tear like a snagged nylon stocking running. I equate it to something like being placed upon the rack and slowly being torn apart. Not a very pleasant experience, but why pretend that it’s all doves and roses eh?
This is what pregnancy is.
When you’re as pregnant as Minnie Driver is in this picture, it’s difficult to wear anything but a bikini. If you’ve bought a maternity one-piece, you’ve probably outgrown it. If you’ve bought a bigger one, you might have outgrown that. Or maybe your body has just changed shape in such a weird way that it just doesn’t fit right and is cutting off your circulation somehow. But you need to get in the water at that point, you’re aching, you need a little exercise, you just need to relax. So I think that’s why you find a lot of pregnant women in bikinis. It’s not so much about immodesty as exhaustion with the futility of maternity clothes. I know some women would relish the excuse to buy a new bathing suit every two weeks, but me, I had no desire to spend $50 on a thing I’d wear for a month. Plus, I was just really tired, and stores felt claustrophobic and full of stale air. So I wore a bikini when I was pregnant and went swimming.
SoMG: “Oliver, inside your house is different from inside your body. Remember?”
Why? You challenged me to explain why organs differ from food. Why does the right to property differ from the right to your body?
I wrote: “name me one woman who had an abortion because she doesnt want her blood exchanged.”
SoMG: “”I don’t want to give/make life right now” is a common reason and it’s essentially the same although “sustain” would be more correct than “make”.”
They arent complaining about transfering blood SoMG. They dont want a baby to be brought into the world. I would think that you would also see the flaw in that reasoning. If we cannot prevent pregnancy based on “potential” consequences, then we cannot stop pregnancy based on “potential” consequences either. Besides, killing a fetus to kill the baby that it will become is the same motivation as killing the baby when it is there in all essence. I was asking you to name one woman who was upset at having to transfer blood.
SoMG: “What I said about breastfeeding is I’m undecided on that one. As long as we don’t force blood donations I’m not willing to force transplacental blood-chemistry-exchange.”
A blood donation requires much more than blood-chemistry exchange. Besides, I think based on your reasoning for why manditory breast feeding could be justified you would argue that blood donations should be justified as well. I think I am actually in agreement with you. If it would save your child’s life, I think that considering the low level of sacrifce needed, a blood donation would be reasonable to mandate.
SoMG: “You will keep bringing up these conjoined twins. I swore I’d never discuss them again. OK. 1. With conjoined twins, neither is inside the other’s body.”
So???? Is there some new right called the right to not have something inside me? They still infringe upon each others right to bodily autonomy. Besides, you could argue that they are inside each other. Or I could just alter the scenario so that each others heart is “split right down the middle” or some such thing. This means nothing.
SoMG: “2. If as you suggest there is an ethical obligation to choose the operation that saves both but is worse for the one who would be the survivor of the other operation, than why doesn’t the same obligation mandate forced blood/kidney donations, which are also the operation that saves both people involved but is worse for the one who would be the survivor of the other operation (which in this case happens to be the null operation–do nothing, let the patient-in-need die)?”
That is a good point. I think it has to do with the fact that they are already involved with each other. There is absolutely no denying that the ethics involved in real separations of conjoined twins concern the most equipoise of rights. There is also no arguing that a horrible accident, such as the impaled girls, also must involve the same principle. Why that does not required blood donations or organ transplants is an interesting question. I would suggest that there must be some responsibility inherent to the scenario of two people who have essentially “collided” with each other. Maybe because their rights have been violated by “chance,” it is the doctor’s job to best right the situation for all party’s involved.
SoMG: “And if you’re going to force a c-section on someone you must also force donation of a kidney which is quite a bit easier to recover from because other than the skin and facia and abdominal wall you don’t need to cut anything but ducts and connective tissue while in a c-section the uterus needs to heal as well as the abdominal wall.”
A kidney can only be given once correct? This gives it special significance. Now you could argue a blood donation would be required…but no woman is required to become pregnant with a fetus. The problem with pregnancy is that the woman is already pregnant with her own child. She has a unique responsibility, just as a potential does not to a stranger. I would think that a parent should be required to donate blood to save their child’s life honestly. I feel pretty confident in that assessment. If it is required of a mother to breast feed their child, then it should also be required to donate blood when it is necessary. It makes sense, and I dont see it as a gross violation of rights.
I wrote: “Do you think you have the right to zap someone with a phaser set on “kill” to prevent them from bumping into you on the street?”
SoMG: “No, but to stop them from inflicting harm equivalent to unwelcome pregnancy and childbirth, yes.”
But you would argue that you do not have the right to use a phaser to kill anyone who causes extremely mild violation to your bodily domain correct? I would argue that a bump on the street is more noticable than a blood to blood transfer. Regardless, it is clear that when there is a mild alternative, the right to total protection of bodily autonomy is not upheld. Why is that? If my right can never be violated, why wouldnt it be okay for me to phaser people who were about to bump into me on the street?
Why hasn’t the troll SoMG been banned?
Oliver, are you seriously asking WHY trespasses against your body are worse than trespasses against your property? Why robbing you is not as bad as raping you? How about: because the alternative idea (that robbing you IS as bad as raping you) is silly on the face of it?
About the twins, you wrote: “Is there some new right called the right to not have something inside me? ”
No, it’s an old right.
You wrote: “A kidney can only be given once correct? This gives it special significance. ”
Well, you can give one kidney, wait for the other one to hypertroph, and then give half of it. In principle you could probably repeat the process.
Anyway, how does the fact that a kidney can only be given once affect the question? If a woman could only undergo pregnancy once in her life, would it change the abortion question?
You wrote:”…I would think that a parent should be required to donate blood to save their child’s life honestly. I feel pretty confident in that assessment. ”
When we start forcing people to donate blood/organs, then we can have another discussion on abortion rights. Until then, I take body-ownership and its superiority over the right-to-life as observed facts.
Your idea that a bump on the street is a body violation like messing with what is INSIDE your body is also too silly to waste my time with it. Please try to evaluate your arguments more carefully before posting.
mk – your response is ironic given all really harsh things said about the pregnant woman in the photo. She’s having a baby, lay off. Not every person requires your judgement and not every wardrobe requires your approval.
You may have the right to speak your mind, but sometimes it is in much better taste to hold your thoughts as prayers rather than as mean-spirited jabs at someone you have never met.
Somehow I missed that response SoMG before you got banned.
I would respond to your points…considering half of them missed my point, but it would probably be frustrating if you could see the response, as I know it would be frustrating to me to know that you would not ever respond. If you get unbanned, remind me so I can explain how you misunderstood my comments!