Weekend questions
Last Saturday night Barack Obama told Pastor Rick Warren at the Saddleback Showdown it was “above his pay grade” to answer when “a baby get[s] human rights.”
Both friend and foe thought Obama’s response was lacking.
In an attempt to recover the fumble, Obama told ABC News on August 21:
I don’t think this issue has to be resolved in terms of when life begins. That is a theological question or scientific question. I as a Christian have a belief that the potential for life is sacred at the moment of conception, but I also believe that it is not decisive in determining who makes the decision that difficult in questions like abortion.
Is it true the issue of abortion does not hinge on when life begins? Can one believe human beings are “sacred” at conception but expendable based on subjective opinion? What was Obama trying to say?
Yesterday Obama also announced he had picked DE Senator Joe Biden as his running mate, about whom AOL News wrote:
Biden, 65, has twice sought the White House, and is a Catholic with blue-collar roots, a generally liberal voting record and a reputation as a long-winded orator.
In 2007, NARAL gave Biden a 75% rating and National Right to Life gave him a zero.
Do you think Biden will help or hurt the Democrat ticket?
[Photo courtesy of Reuters]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Was Biden ever one subject, by name, to the complaints about those politicians who should not receive Communion?
I think selecting another Senator is a bad mistake. However, Biden is one of the best senators he could have selected.
Jill, why do you not post on this?
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/118276.php
Mr. Obama said, “[T]he potential for life is sacred at the moment of conception.”
What does Mr. Obama mean by the “potential for life”? Can’t he speak in ordinary English?
And Mr. Obama evidently hasn’t heard of the pearl of great price. Anybody who abandons his Christianity when confronted with difficult decisions doesn’t have much faith to begin with.
Speaking of Saddleback, I heard former Democrat congresswoman and Clinton supporter Geraldine Ferraro call Obama’s performance there “disappointing”.
It will help him if the whole abortion issue is whisked out of the building.
It will hurt him if it is pointed out that he claims to be catholic while maintaining prochoiceism. Couple that with BAIPA…it didn’t help Kerry, and I doubt it will help Biden.
Jon,
According to our MSM, one must realize that Obama is of such incredible brilliance that he does not speak in ordinary English and his uh, oh, um, etc. is due to his great mind at work, not his inablity to answer a question or speak without a teleprompter.
Please keep that in mind at all times where Obama is concerned.
Jill , Call Hannity ASAP , GET FATHER FRANK PAVONE of Priests for Life on the show in the blogs and also contact the Fox News People and Let the Truth be Know ,,,,,,JB,,,,IS NOT A CATHOLIC!!! A Person cannot claim to Be a Catholic and believe in abortion,Period!! NO DEBATING THAT ONE! Many uncatechized Catholic Christians might fall for this lie and vote for this fraud,thanks,MW
Jon, “potential for life” is ordinary English. And Obama has not “abandoned his Christianity”.
You are confirming the impression you left on the Phelps-sperm-swimming-cartoon thread. Which is, that you are a moron.
Basing RTL arguments on denials of reality does not help RTLism.
Biden, media blowhard who loves to hear himself speak:
During the 2006 confirmation hearings for Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito, the Post’s Dana Milbank wrote this of Biden’s performance:
“Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr., in his first 12 minutes of questioning the nominee, managed to get off only one question. Instead, during his 30-minute round of questioning, Biden spoke about his own Irish American roots, his “Grandfather Finnegan,” his son’s application to Princeton (he attended the University of Pennsylvania instead, Biden said), a speech the senator gave on the Princeton campus, the fact that Biden is “not a Princeton fan,” and his views on the eyeglasses of Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.).”
On second thought, maybe Biden will hurt Obama after all. He already did publicly, twice!
http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/0808/McCain_to_air_Biden_TV_ad.html
Jasper,
Rush stated on his Thursday or Friday show he hoped Obama would pick Biden. You would think that would be one huge red flag to the Obama campaign.
Carder,
I remember Biden referring to Obama as being “clean”. Oh, there’s something remarkable about a black person who is clean?
As to whether human beings are both sacred at conception but expendable, the question has already been answered by a holy God. And we need to be in alignment with Him for He is always right.
And as for the Obama/Biden ticket, 2 frauds and 2 babblers on 1 Democratic ticket – you gotta love it if you’re a conservative. And I do! :)
The “emperor” needs to be pinched once again….as far as the science side of the “science/theological perspective”….there isn’t just “potential” there, there’s definitely life. And even then for the theological side in this “potential” dilemma…since faith and reason go hand in hand…that’s also a no brainer as far as life is concerned.
And we now have a full fledged ticket of arrogance going here…that’s for sure.
KC, like McCain isn’t arrogant? ROTFL.
SoMG,
Don’t you ever tire of getting smacked in the face for trying to make Obama’s positions sound rational? Time and time again you get smacked down trying and end up childishly attacking McCain to weasel try and deflect your ignorance.
“Jon, ‘potential for life’ is ordinary English.”
And scientifically inaccurate. The moment of fertilization brings about a new human being’s life, whether you happen to be a Christian or not.
When life begins is fundamental to this issue. Obama just wants to dance around the matter when he’s pressed.
As for Biden, just let him talk and keep the recording devices running. The campaign commercials will make themselves.
It would be nice to see American men rise up against Sen. Biden for introducing one of the most sexist pieces of legislation in history, The Violence Against Women Act? What’s wrong with that, you ask? How would you react to an Identity Theft Against White People Act or a Sexual Harassment Against Right-Handers Act?
Women initiate domestic abuse against men approximately as often as the reverse happens, according to more than 200 studies, reviews, and analyses. All victims should receive our support and protection; we shouldn’t ignore approximately half of the victims of domestic violence simply because we think it politically expedient to do so.
Biden is a good choice because he will take on the Republican/extremist hate machine that has focused on Obama.
Jon, “potential for life” is ordinary English… Basing RTL arguments on denials of reality does not help RTLism.
Mr. Obama denied reality, not I. I asked what “potential for life” meant. Mr. Obama said that the potential for life is sacred at the moment of conception; he didn’t say that human life is sacred at the moment of conception. His not basing his argument on any reality isn’t going to help it. A potential is not actual.
And Obama has not “abandoned his Christianity.”
And an agnostic is the best judge of an authentic Christian profession? Actually, I didn’t say that Mr. Obama has abandoned his Christianity (though I do think he has). I said that “anybody who abandons his Christianity when confronted with difficult decisions doesn’t have much faith to begin with.” The reason that I made that statement was that Mr. Obama made a similar statement. He said:
I as a Christian have a belief… but I also believe that it is not decisive in determining who makes the decision that difficult in questions like abortion.
The second belief is not a Christian belief. Mr. Obama needs to remember the Protestant heritage that the Scriptures are the all-sufficient and only rule of faith and practice. If he is a Roman Catholic, then he will also accept papal decrees, most or all of which have been very clear on the evil of induced abortion.
And now, as I wrote to SoMG on another thread, I must do some other things. Bye!
SOMG 9:38am
Even if McCain is arrogant I’ve never heard him suggest his nomination will cause the ocean levels to recede the earth to heal. Oh, and according to Obama, isn’t a light supposed to descend from on high and cause us to have an epiphany and vote for Obama? I can just hear the celestial choir.
Biden is a good choice because he will take on the Republican/extremist hate machine that has focused on Obama.
Nah. First of all no one hates Obama, just his extreme politics.
Second, it seems to me everyone here can multi-task. All can take on Obama and Biden at the same time. Besides, there’s not much difference between the two, making it all that much easier.
Mary, the thing about light shining on his face and causing the listener to have an epiphany was obviously a joke. As far as the oceans receding and the Earth healing, which candidate do you think will do more about pollution and global warming?
Patricia, Jill Stanek thinks abortion should be illegal in cases of rape. Why shouldn’t she demonstrate this belief at the DNC??? Unless, of course, she’s ashamed.
bmmg39, 10;12am
I’m afraid you have a point and this from a person who was raised in domestic violence, so I have absolutely no sympathy for abusers.
My brother who was a police officer in a large city and he said the most dreaded calls to respond to are domestic violence. He said he’d rather respond to an armed robbery any day.
Contrary to popular misconception women will not always view the police officer as her knight in shining armor and will instead attack him/her!
My brother said officers have been physically attacked by “victims” one officer had a lamp smashed over his head, called vile names, and accused of interfering!
I’ve heard the same from various officers from various parts of the country.
I know more that one man who has gone to the assistance of a woman they saw being abused only to be cursed out by the woman to mind their own ******* business. Several men have told me that was the last time they went to the aid of any woman.
In fact some years ago there was a movie about a woman who was abusing her husband and very violently.
Of course no one believe that helpless little thing could be pummeling him. Police would not believe he acted in self defense until one of the children spoke up on his behalf.
Mary, the thing about light shining on his face and causing the listener to have an epiphany was obviously a joke.
Would have been funnier if he didn’t think it was true. ;-)
Please SOMG,
I saw him give the “epiphany” speech. He wasn’t being funny. Its the media by the way that has had the light shining on Obama’s face and the halo in the background.
Even if the earth is warming, and this is controversial, there is nothing mankind can do about it, unless of course we can control the earth axis, sun/earth rotation, ocean currents, precipitation, and the energy emitted from the sun. Well, maybe Obama can control what happens to the climate after all!
I mean, if the oceans respond on cue to his presumptive presidential nomination, why not the earth and the sun?
To get at the right answer regarding preborn rights, the correct question must be asked. That question is: “From whence do rights originate”.
Pro-aborts may argue that rights come from the law. The problem with that is that laws change, therefore, rights based soley on law are not based on truth but opinion. Nazi Germany is an extreme example of the perversion of law v. rights. So, to a pro-abort I would then ask, if rights eminate from law from whence do laws originate?
Pro-life believers know where rights and laws come from, they come from the Creator and are established by His Word. The ultimate right bestowed and granted on every creature created, even ones that we know nothing about, is the right to choose God or choose themselves or, choosing life or choosing death. God’s laws are designed to preserve that right.
A pro-abort may then say. “you’ve just answered why abortion must be a choice”. Yes, that would be true if another person and God were not involved. But, God and a another person are involved, that person being the baby growing inside the mother. And God is not a respector of persons, he does not favor the mother over the child. If He did, then conception is just a whim and not an expresion of intention.
Since God is the originator of rights and rights eminate from the expression of His will, all evidences of that expression must be the starting point for every right.
Since conception can only be wrought at the hand of God and is therefore an expression of the intent of His will, the right to life begins at conception.
The right is instinctively protected by a mother’s inate desire to protect the fetus growing inside her. The changes her body undergoes are evidence of that. This desire to protect the fetus is perverted when sin and selfishness enter the mix and abortion then becomes the virus that seeks to destroy the race, ah, the expression of the will of the anti-God, satan himself.
This is why the definition of personhood and when life begins are so vital to the debate of whether abortion is moral or immoral.
As a Harvard graduate lawyer, Mr. Obama, knows all of this and finally admits it, albeit after the fact and in realization of his folly and resulting negative reaction. However, when he chooses to forgoe logic and truth and exchange it for a lie, hence, “it’s above his pay grade” pro-abort friendly answer to the question, “when does life begin”, is slick, but worthy of no cigar.
Let’s not forget who Barack Obama is and will be as president despite his regurgitated and massaged retorts to his stupid answers; he is a radical and committed proponent of the murder of innocent babies in the womb, willing even to bolster that image by voting against laws that would protect abortion targeted survivors of that view. His duplicity on the issue reveals deep character flaws that should runs chills up our spines and not tingles down our legs.
For any thinking, honest person not to see through Obama’s smoke screen is evidence of their willingness to be decieved. It is not a fair exchange. Accepting a lie at the expense of one’s intergity is always a bad deal. Even pro-aborts know this sub-consciously, unless their consciences have been murdered, and no amount of obfuscation, denial of the existence of God, redefining or feigning ignorance as to when life begins, etc., will excuse them from the folly of their self-deception.
Mary, what you say about global warming is not at all clear. It’s certainly not clear enough to justify your writing as if you knew it’s true. We MAY be able to do something about it by reducing emission of greenhouse gasses. Do you even understand what makes one compound a greenhouse gas and not another?
I also saw him give the Epiphany/Light-Shining speech. My impression was: modest self-satire. Not trying to provoke a burst of guffaws but not serious either.
SOMG,
I have spent much time reading opposing viewpoints concerning supposed manmade global warming and in my opinion its a crock and carbon “footprinting” a racket.
Thirty years ago we were supposedly entering an ice age.
Around what I believe was the mid 1500’s the earth had a warming period, grapes were being grown in England, and people prospered! It was followed by a mini ice age which was catastrophic.
Now how did this occur with no input from the human race?
Probably because the human race is totally irrelevant and nature does what it dang well pleases.
How much carbon do you suppose is emitted by massive forest fires caused by, gasp, nature?!
How many tons of toxins have volcanoes emitted, and continue to emit, since the beginning of time?
Imagine the methane the dinosaurs sent skyward.
Every living creature has been expelling carbon dioxide since creation and continues to do so. If you’re worried about CO2 emissions SOMG, hold your breath.
Climatologists debate among themselves concerning global warming and climate itself and the factors that influence it are not fully understood and are debated.
Heck, the people who predict climate change in 30 years can’t give you an accurate weekend weather report!
Finally, these people who hold their “global warming” concerts, (some of which had to be cancelled because of cold weather, who says Mother Nature doesn’t have a sense of humor?)remind me of ancient people who would hold rituals, even yelling and making noise at the moon as it covered the sun during an eclilpse, in order to save the world from doom. Amazing how they succeeded in making the moon continue on its path!
SOMG,
Another thing, those spaghetti lightbulbs that will supposedly save the planet, they’re highly mercury toxic. You will have to check with the local DNR or EPA to find out how to dispose of them. Just don’t break one in your home. It could prove deadly.
No, I’m not being facetious. I couldn’t be more serious.
Mary, I agree that human involvement in global warming is unproven. But non-involvement is also unproven.
You and I are not qualified to have a meangingful opinion on the question.
Although one of my high-school friends is now Professor of Atmospheric Chemistry at the University of California at Berkeley, where they have special parking places reserved exclusively for use by Nobel Laureates (no fooling– they are marked “NL” just as parking places for disabled persons are marked “DP”, and when you get a Nobel Prize the University gives you a special sticker to put on your car. When I was there we had three NLs in the College of Chemistry: Glen Seaborg for creating new elements with names like Californium and Berkelium), Melvin Calvin for discovering the Calvin Cycle, a key part of the light-harvesting apparatus in plants, and Yuan Lee for crossed molecular beams. Plus several in Physics including Charlie Townes, the inventor of the laser.)
Mary, metallic mercury is not at all dangerous. Mercury is only dangerous in organometallic compounds.
SOMG,
I think you and I are both very qualified to look at both sides of the argument,draw our own conclusions and yes have opinions.
Please google “Manmade Global Warming Hoax”.
How very impressive. I can’t pronounce most of that! I remember when I graduated from college the Master’s Thesis papers were listed, as well as the PhDs. So help me the title on some of them was an entire page and difficult to pronounce.
Hard to imagine such brilliant minds and what they come up with.
Anyway, its nice to know that when I get MY Nobel Laureate, I’ll rate my own parking space!:):):)
SOMG,
Please google “light bulbs” and scroll down to the YouTube ” Important Information About Energy Saver Light”.
Basing RTL arguments on denials of reality does not help RTLism.
Posted by: SoGM at August 23, 2008 9:06 AM
yeah, like the proaborts have the corner on “reality”
baby = products of conception, blob of cells, bunch of cells, blood clots, conceptus
abortion = termination of pregnancy
all to deflect what’s really happening – the murder of an innocent human person the unborn baby.
BTW, my brother IS a professional meteorologist and according to him, 3/4 of the atmospheric physicists do NOT support the theory of global warming. Most think AL Gore is nuts….
You can throw around all the names nnd letters you like (they mean nothing – any moron can get a degree at a university today, especially if espousing the politically correct viewpoint), the fact is, it’s a theory.
BTW this is a prolife blog (have you noticed after what “years” of commenting), so get your own blog if you want to discuss topics not relevant to the prolife issues.
Patricia, 12:44PM
How interesting about your brother. Global warming isn’t only a theory, to some its a religion!
Regarding Al Gore, most people would be embarassed to walk around publicly blowing off their mouths on something they have absolutely no training or credentialling in!
SoMG:
What do you hope for as a labeled parking space?
LFH as in “Liar For Hire”?
How about WWFP; “Will Work For Prestige” or more accurately WAYFP; “Will Abort You For Prestige”, how about, DD; “Doctor Death” or WCFC – “Will Compromise For Convenience” or HD; “Hopelessly Decieved”?
Mary: “Police would not believe he acted in self defense until one of the children spoke up on his behalf.”
And even then they might not. Many police departments have been strictly instructed to arrest the man in any domestic dispute. In other places, the guidelines are fairer. For abused men, it’s a bit of a crapshoot how you will be treated.
“Mary, metallic mercury is not at all dangerous. Mercury is only dangerous in organometallic compounds.”
I have a few CFC bulbs running. They’re a good idea, but it’s true that they must be handled very carefully because of the mercury they contain.
bmmg39, 2:19PM
You may want to view the video I recommended to SOMG. I’m stockpiling the good old fashioned lightbult in the event they become illegal.
Whatever you do, don’t break one in your home.
Is it true the issue of abortion does not hinge on when life begins?
It’s true for pro-choicers.
Can one believe human beings are “sacred” at conception but expendable based on subjective opinion? What was Obama trying to say?
That his personal Christian faith should not be the basis for laws that everyone, Christian or non-Christian, must obey.
What “Christian belief” do you mean? Since we know that, scientifically, a human being’s life begins at the moment of fertilization, are we to suppose that “not killing anyone” is a belief requiring one to adopt a certain religion?
I just wanted to respond to the study SoMG posted.
The quote I found the most useful out of the whole thing was this..
“However, the task force found “no evidence sufficient to support the claim that an observed association between abortion history and mental health was caused by the abortion per se, as opposed to other factors.” ”
The study did mention that there were negative consequences, but considering the presence of “other factors” it would be possibly misleading to attribute these consequences to abortion alone.
Essentially to dumb it down, they proved that the evidence is currently not good enough to link single elective abortions to mental health issues.
However, all they did was to prove there was an abscence of evidence, and as you should at least know SoMG, an abscence of evidence does not in fact imply evidence of abscence.
In other words, they havent proven that there is no relationship, just that there may not be one.
Its akin to saying “I cant prove God doesnt exist, therefore he does!” or “I cant prove God exists, there he doesnt!”
Both are equally flawed and are of the same flaw if you try to take away anything beyond the text in this study.
Of course, thats assuming the study was represenative, non-biased and relevant to the conclusions that it did draw. For all we know, psychology currently is unable to accurately diagnose mental health. It could be the case that psychology is unable to percieve subtle or mild alterations to mental health properly.
Sure, Oliver, absence of proof is not proof of absence, in general. Sure, abortion could be causing mental-health problems that are difficult to prove. But it could also be PREVENTING them. Not only do you have no proof abortion is bad for mental health; you also have no proof abortion is not GOOD for mental health.
are we to suppose that “not killing anyone” is a belief requiring one to adopt a certain religion?
The idea that women should have no right to self-defense against an embryo is a religious belief that most Americans do not share.
SoMG,
I will give you that of course, but you dont see me talking it up and making posts that there is a study that has shown there to be possible factors that may in fact disprove the evidence that supports the idea, without actually disputing the idea itself.
“no right to self-defense against an embryo”
I am sorry but that just is hysterical to me. I am picturing a Karate Kid moment…..HI YAHHHH!!
Thanks. I needed that.
Although I hesitate to interact directly with you anymore SoMG, I would have to ask you how many times you have witnessed a happy abortion? A joyous abortion? A wonderful, beautiful, contented, peaceful, glorious abortion?
I know of THOUSANDS of declarations that explain in no uncertain terms of the spiritual, emotional and physical pain that abortion has brought to the lives of women and men. They are well documented, are legally admissable in court and grow in number by the day. The stories of women and men hurt by abortion will be heard. I have no doubt.
http://www.operationoutcry.org
Patricia, 12:44PM
How interesting about your brother. Global warming isn’t only a theory, to some its a religion!
Regarding Al Gore, most people would be embarassed to walk around publicly blowing off their mouths on something they have absolutely no training or credentialling in!
Posted by: Mary at August 23, 2008 1:16 PM
He’s visiting us this week and he’s told me that many atmospheric scientists believe that the Earth is in fact cooling. They also believe that the temperature variations we are experiencing my be due to sunspot actitivy and other conditions within our sun.
As for light bulbs, I have had the regular ones break and those too are coated in toxic compounds. One blew up in my kitchen a couple of years ago. So far, I haven’t grown another head (although I could use a second pair of eyes at times).
Patricia,
I’ve had plenty of broken light bulbs as well. You may also want to check that video I referred SOMG to. The EPA itself has issued warnings on this bulb.
It would be nice to see American men rise up against Sen. Biden for introducing one of the most sexist pieces of legislation in history, The Violence Against Women Act? What’s wrong with that, you ask? How would you react to an Identity Theft Against White People Act or a Sexual Harassment Against Right-Handers Act?
Women initiate domestic abuse against men approximately as often as the reverse happens, according to more than 200 studies, reviews, and analyses. All victims should receive our support and protection; we shouldn’t ignore approximately half of the victims of domestic violence simply because we think it politically expedient to do so.
Posted by: bmmg39 at August 23, 2008 10:12 AM
………………………………………………
Swallowing 200 ‘studies’, reviews and analyses’ of someone’s ignorant opinion about domestic violence doesn’t make you look smart.
Sally,
How do you know these studies, reviews, and analyses are someone’s ignorant opinion?
I can tell you what my brother and other police officers have told me, that responding to domestic violence calls is what police officers dread most. Its because they fear violent reprisal by the women as well as the men.
The first time my brother ever pulled a gun was at a domestic violence call and was within seconds of shooting someone.
Really. Ignorant?
Carla, let’s put it this way: I have seen many abortions that made the patients much happier or anyway much less unhappy than they had been when they were pregnant. In clinical rotations you learn about getting job satisfaction from making patients less unhappy. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a joyous amputation either.
You wrote: “I know of THOUSANDS of declarations that explain in no uncertain terms of the spiritual, emotional and physical pain that abortion has brought to the lives of women and men. ”
Interesting, in light of this: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/118276.php
But let’s say you do. That’s great! You have documented one side of the question. Now all you need to do is document the other side–that is, balance all that pain caused by abortion-on-demand against the spiritual, emotional, and physical pain that WOULD BE caused by forcing women either to grow pregnancies they don’t want and to give birth against their wills, or to become criminals and run the risks of the black market which might be mild or severe depending on how well the abortion ban was enforced.
A word about that. It’s true that Bernard Nathanson admitted he lied about numbers of black-market-related deaths and complications, and that others have misrepresented those numbers as well. BUT, ON THE OTHER HAND, we have a disturbing number of anecdotes like Dr Romalis’ by increasingly elderly gyns about their training days in overflowing dedicated abortion-sepsis wards. There was another one in the NYTimes a month or so back. Which do not exist any more in North America. I don’t think Dr. Romalis is lying about the sepsis ward he describes. RTLs sometimes say the drop in mortality is due to better antibiotics and this may be true but you dont treat with antibiotics unless infection is already in progress which you often don’t find out until sepsis is happening so the drop in infections is not because of antibiotics.
But let’s say enforcement is lax so the black market isn’t so dangerous. That means lots of women become criminals. Soon everybody who isn’t a hermit knows someone who’s had an illegal abortion. Just as everybody knows someone today who smokes pot. Result: greater disrespect for the Rule of Law. You have to include that in your account of the pain caused by criminalizing abortion.
It seems obvious to me that the pain caused by criminalizing abortion would far outweigh the pain caused by abortion on demand, even if most of the stories on operation outcry turned out not to be fakes. Part of being a free grown-up is that you regret some of the decisions you freely make. Sometimes bitterly. If you can’t handle that, maybe you should consider becoming a slave. That way someone else would make all the decisions for you. Also consider becoming a grad student.
As more stories continue to come into our offices we pray for the women who are suffering in silence. The ones who are ashamed, alone, afraid and have NEVER told anyone about an abortion they once had. Where is the pride in that? The joy in that? The confidence and peace?
Ever continued your JOB when a young woman was sobbing? Ever heard the crying in the recovery room? Ever see women struggling to sit up to see if it’s really a baby only to be pushed back down on the table? Ever turned an ultrasound screen away from a woman? Ever told a woman to shut up cause her crying was too loud and she would upset the others? Ever heard a woman praying while you kill her child? Ever heard a woman saying, “no, no, no, no, no” during an abortion?
Those are just some of the happy stories I get to hear. The joyous experiences of abortion.
Sure, SOME women never regret it. I am trying to reach those who want the help, hope and healing that I have found. Eventually, we will get to our goal of one million declarations, SoMG. We will.
The APA report is being refuted and others like myself are emailing to let them know we need a new report that is not as biased.
http://www.frc.org/
I stand on Truth. I walk in Truth. I do what God wants me to do in sharing my story with others, I follow Him. Part of following Him is helping others. Standing with women in an unplanned pregnancy, hearing their hearts, giving them the help they need to choose to parent or put a baby up for adoption.
Maybe I won’t live long enough to see Roe V Wade and Doe V Bolton overturned. All I have is now to do what I can.
I will take my leave. Someone on the PC side will have to do the work that you suggested.
I do not know anyone who smokes pot. :)
SoMG,
Should abortion become illegal, it will be doctors who will be prosecuted, not the women.
Could it be that Dr. Romalis is exaggerating like Dr. Nathanson did before he was confronted by the truth of what he was doing? Abortion clinics are the most under-regulated medical facilities. There is nothing safe about abortion today just because it’s legal. Abortions will decrease if it becomes illegal. Unfortunately there will still be some women who will pursue it one way or another but no one is forcing them — it is their choice. In the meantime more women will be saved from the physical, emotional and psychological ramifications of having had an abortion and more babies will be given a chance at life.
SOMG 3:58am
I don’t believe Dr. Romalis is lying. But a very important point here, you are talking about increasing elderly gyns. Overflowing septic abortion wards have gone the way of TB sanitariums, iron lungs, and lobotomies, other things these increasingly elderly gyns would also likely remember.
I’m certainly not lying when I say I remember these and the days when state hospitals were dumping grounds for all of society’s rejects.
The decreasing illegal abortion mortality rate had nothing to do
with legalization and everything to do with advances in surgical techniques, antibiotic therapy and blood and fluid therapy. That would explain the steadily decreasing death rate years prior to Roe v Wade. Also doctors who performed abortions in their offices, where most illegal abortions took place, could be selective of what patients they took, were extremely cautious, and certainly did not abort on a production line basis.
Please SOMG, the drop in infections is not due to antibiotics? Yes you do start treating the woman before infection sets in. Antibiotics could well have been prescribed right after the patient was aborted as a precautionary method. Also the woman could call her doctor immediately if she developed symptoms. This was likely since the woman did not want anyone to know of her abortion. Also, she wasn’t likely to be told by the doctor to go to the local ER! Most important the patient followed up with the doctor performing the abortion. She likely returned to his/her office for follow up care and checkups.
Its also theorized that doctors were much more cautious and concientious. A septic or injured patient could mean a jail term. Abortion clinic hacks don’t have such concerns.
SoMG,
Come on, that APA report was so flawed and politically motivated that it was widely criticized by its own membership even before publication. Until the APA takes this matter seriously, their opinion is not even worth discussion.
http://www.lifenews.com/nat4131.html.com
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/aug/08081307.html
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/aug/08081805.html
Carla,
I’m sure that SoMG has had many women and young girls walk out his/her office believing, at least for the moment, that the weight of the world has been lifted off of her shoulders. It is, however, doubtful that SoMG has ever followed up with one of his/her patients,in the short term much less in the in the long, to see the consequences abortion has truly had. To do so would be terribly inconvenient and might throw a wrench into the “I do it for the women” mantra. To do so would require SoMG to face the reality that abortion is not so noble a profession after all.
Like you, I am post-abortive. Immediately following, I fell into repeatable patterns of self destructive behaviors. I abused alcohol and drugs, spent many periods over 20 years in deep depression and convinced that I was no longer worthy of love, accepted sex as a substitute, which led to two more abortions. I spent decades trying to block out the horror of what I had done. I was miserable and lonely. In all honesty, I was living in a hell of my own creating. It has only been through real love and mercy, both human and divine, and the acceptance of my guilt, that I can even live with myself today.
SoMG and the APA wish to ignore these stories, your story, Angele’s, mine and the millions like us. They are inconvenient and they fly in the face of their claims that their practices do not violate their “first, do no harm” oaths. I am awed by the courage of women like you and Angele. You are all Davids, taking on the Goliaths of our death culture. As Bobby says, “God love you!”
(((((((((((DeeL))))))))))))))
You are very brave to share your experiences here as well. It’s not easy to say these things “aloud” for strangers and loved one’s to see.
God bless,
Angele
Love you DeeL and Angele!!
Thank you for sharing your stories and your hearts with me(and the thousands that read this!)We are not alone and I am praying for you both. Our voices will be heard!! I am so thankful that you are here to testify to the horror that is abortion on demand. You have made me weep and smile and thank God for you. Please stick around.
Beautiful ladies — thank you for your brave witnesses. God bless you.
I am so thankful for the places I have found where I can speak honestly.
Thanks for making this one of those places!
I have to say that I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR YOU!:)
Let’s talk abortion recovery. What have you done? What has been the most helpful? What brings you here? :)
Carla,
You’re a doll! :-) Back at you.
I have not gone through any formal abortion recovery programs.
It’s been a long and complicated journey beginning 13 years ago when I really heard the parable of the Prodigal Son for the first time. Locked in my fear, I was still silent for years. Then as I was preparing to give a witness for a church retreat, the floodgates opened. I, with knees knocking, found myself at my church making a full and honest confession and received the Sacrament of Reconciliation. With the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I went on to give God’s witness, totally different from the one I had planned to give. In the midst of the retreat, a post abortive woman, who had to move heaven and earth to be there, approached me and told me that I was the reason she was there. From that moment on, I knew I could no longer be silent. I had to use my story to help women either avoid the horror of abortion or to at least help them find healing afterwards.
For the past few years I have been trying to discern how best to do that. I have looked into several ministries, but to date I have not really found a place that has borne fruit. I have truly felt I have been following God’s will, but right now I am not so sure anymore. For the time being, I am trying to sit in the silence of my heart and know what he wants of me.
Honestly, I can’t really tell you why I’m here. But for now, I know I’m glad I am.
I am glad you are here! I am sorry for the pain. I know of what you speak, my friend.
I will tell you that it was a long, hard and lonely journey. I didn’t know ANYONE who was in recovery or able to help me. I of course knew so many who had abortions but they were trapped in their own addictions and depression and attempts. I found hope and healing through Forgiven and Set Free bible study, a Rachel’s Vineyard retreat, speaking out with Silent No More and Operation Outcry. God has allowed 2 women to open up to me about their abortions in my church which has been HUGE!
I lurked at Jill’s place for a long time and then jumped in. Not an easy thing to do when others want you to feel like you are the only one in the whole world that regrets their abortion!
Anyway, I have learned a lot on this walk and now we shall continue walking together!!!
Please email me if you ever want to talk privately DeeL or Angele.
My abortion story is on my blog. Just click my name. :)
Thanks Carla!
Eileen, you wrote: “Should abortion become illegal, it will be doctors who will be prosecuted, not the women.”
You hope. The women will still be criminals even if they are not prosecuted. Hiring someone to commit a crime is itself a crime.
You wrote: “Could it be that Dr. Romalis is exaggerating like Dr. Nathanson did before he was confronted by the truth of what he was doing?”
As someone corrected me, Nathanson was not exaggerating, he was lying. I doubt very much that Dr. Romalis and others are exaggerating.
You wrote: ” Abortion clinics are the most under-regulated medical facilities.”
Bullshit.
You wrote: “There is nothing safe about abortion today just because it’s legal. ”
One patient death per hundred thousand abortions is pretty safe. Less than one tenth as dangerous as childbirth. Safer than injecting penicillin into a patient.
You wrote: “Abortions will decrease if it becomes illegal. ”
First of all you don’t know that. A recent international study says no. Secondly even if it turns out to be true you will never know because illegal abortions are invisible.
DeeL, how do you think you should be punished for having your three unborn babies murdered? Death? Life in prison? How?
Mary, you wrote: “Antibiotics could well have been prescribed right after the patient was aborted as a precautionary method. ”
Nope.
You wrote: “The decreasing illegal abortion mortality rate had nothing to do
with legalization and everything to do with advances in surgical techniques, antibiotic therapy and blood and fluid therapy. ”
Is that why South Africa experienced a rapid ninety percent drop in admissions (or maybe it was deaths I don’t remember which) for abortion complications in the 1990s when they liberalized abortion laws?
SOMG,
Yep. Prophylactic antibiotics could well have been prescribed as well administered at the earliest sign of infection. Also doctors would be using the most modern sterile techniques.
How do you explain the declining death rate from illegal abortion here in the US prior to Roe v Wade?
About S.Africa, did women have access to the surgical techniques, antibiotics, and fluid and blood therapy American women had for years prior to abortion being legalized? Did private doctors perform illegal abortions or did village women? You’re talking two different sets of circumstances and two different cultures.
Also were the S.African stats as distorted as the American ones Dr. Nathanson admits were?
At one point, death was certainly something I wished for.
I do know this, had abortion not been so legal and easy, there’s at least three that I can say wouldn’t have happened.
Hmmm…I wonder if we struck a nerve…SoMG posts are rather terse and he is resorting to profanity.
SOMG, 7:11PM
I’ve already pointed out that Dr. Romalis is not exaggerating or lying but rather talking ancient medical history, right there with iron lungs and lobotomies.
I worked in a large urban hospital in the early 70’s prior to Roe and never saw any abortion wards, I also never saw iron lungs or lobotomies.
You remind me of those groups who will use women who died 40+ years ago as examples of illegal abortion deaths. I’ve seen some examples as far back as the Civil War! You folks are really desperate.
Sally,
How do you know these studies, reviews, and analyses are someone’s ignorant opinion?
I can tell you what my brother and other police officers have told me, that responding to domestic violence calls is what police officers dread most. Its because they fear violent reprisal by the women as well as the men.
The first time my brother ever pulled a gun was at a domestic violence call and was within seconds of shooting someone.
Posted by: Mary at August 23, 2008 8:43 PM
…………………………….
Perhaps if your brother was trained in domestic violence situations he wouldn’t be so afraid of dealing with them and perhaps causing escalation. In my state there are specially trained units educated to deal with DV.
Cops have a high incidence of abuse themselves. Cops bring their attitudes with them to a situation if not trained properly.
Don’t believe me? Do the research.
Really. Ignorant?
Posted by: bmmg39 at August 23, 2008 10:00 PM
………………………..
Yes. Let’s see your 200 studies. Oh that’s right. You haven’t actually seen 200 studies. You just read that nonsense somewhere and think that repeating the nonsense makes you seem like you have a clue.
Sally,
Do YOUR research. You’re way out of your league here.
My brother and several officers have told me the domestic violence call is the most dangerous and unpredictable one to respond to. There could very well be an enraged man or woman sitting with a loaded shotgun waiting for the cop to step through the door.
As I said, one is sadly mistaken if they assume women view the police as their knights in shining armor. All too often women have attacked and threatened police officers. Male/female relationships can involve some pretty bizarre psychology, especially where domestic violence is concerned, and these situations are not as cut and dried as the public might think.
Officers are walking into emotionally charged and highly volatile situations, as well as totally unpredictable.
My brother needed more training? No Sally, fortunately my brother noticed the man had a knife, which he may have used on the officers or his wife. My brother pulled his gun and ordered the man to drop it, or he was dead. Thankfully he dropped it.
“Let’s see your 200 studies.”
Done: http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
“Perhaps if your brother was trained in domestic violence situations he wouldn’t be so afraid of dealing with them and perhaps causing escalation.”
Too often, police units are trained by biased “battered women’s advocates” to favor the woman in any domestic abuse situation, regardless of who is bleeding or bruised when they arrive, so we’d better be careful about what we say about “training” them.
Mary, you mentioned “those groups who will use women who died 40+ years ago as examples of illegal abortion deaths. ”
Hardly surprising since abortion has been legal in the USA for nearly 40 years. (Doioioioioioi!)
You wrote: “How do you explain the declining death rate from illegal abortion here in the US prior to Roe v Wade?”
Better emergency care including antimicrobials could certainly be part of it. I don’t deny that. Another explanation which I think is more powerful would be increasingly poor enforcement of laws against abortion. More and better illegal abortionists. The Sixties, you know?
Which brings us to the deepest point in this argument: when you argue that we should ban abortion because the black market won’t be so bad, you are saying we should pass a law partly because it won’t be enforced. That is a bad reason to make ANY law. I’m not even arguing here against unenforcable laws in general (although those are goofy too), but in this case unenforcability is being used as a positive talking point by supporters of a ban. Cuckoo!
SOMG,
Read it again. I said 40+ years ago which could mean 45, 50, 60, etc. I said all the way back to the Civil War. Doioioioioi!
Illegal abortionists were mostly doctors very discreetly performing abortions in their offices. Unlike modern day clinic hacks, they had to fear complications. As such, they were inclined to be far more careful, could be selective of patients, certainly did not perform abortions on an assembly line basis, and had patients return to them for follow up care.
Increasingly poor enforcement against illegal abortionists would explain a declining mortality rate? I think strong enforcement of laws would since an injured or infected patient could mean a jail sentence.
More and better illegal abortionists. Yeah. Doctors who used antibiotics, better sterile technique, followed up on patients, and were extremely cautious if they didn’t want to end up in jail.
The “black market” apparently wasn’t so bad since the death rate had been steadily declining for years.
Laws against abortion don’t work? Do you think there would have been 48 million abortions if Roe v Wade had never passed?
Maybe another reason for the death rate going down is that women were not having abortions in very high numbers to begin with.
Sally,
My brother was not afraid to deal with a domestic violence situation. He is well aware of how dangerous they are and enters the situation with that fact in mind.
My brother was trained to protect the lives and safety of innocent people, himself, and fellow officers.
He was well aware of how deadly, volatile, and totally unpredictable a domestic violence situation can be for police officers when he entered that home. Because of this he spotted the knife in the man’s hand before it ended up in a police officer or the wife.
To suggest my brother caused any escalation is absurd. Its more likely he kept someone from getting killed. In a situation like this officers must react quickly to protect lives first and foremost, and trying to be Dr.Phil with an irrational person can get someone killed.
Mary,
I have been studying the drug meth. One of my friends has a son heading in that direction. From what I have read violence against others seems to be common to meth users. When I read about young fathers killing their children and their girlfriends in horrifying ways I have to wonder if they were high. Just a thought.
Mary you wrote: “Illegal abortionists were mostly doctors very discreetly performing abortions in their offices.”
You don’t know that. No one will ever know about the large majority of illegal abortions.
“Unlike modern day clinic hacks, they had to fear complications. ”
Right. Contemporary abortion docs don’t fear complications or do anything to avoid them. ROTFL.
You wrote: “Maybe another reason for the death rate going down is that women were not having abortions in very high numbers to begin with.”
In the late Sixties. Sure. (*Sarcasm*)
You wrote: “Laws against abortion don’t work? Do you think there would have been 48 million abortions if Roe v Wade had never passed?”
Maybe. No way to tell.
You wrote: “The “black market” apparently wasn’t so bad ….”
I already answered this. Go read the last paragraph of my previous post. Here, I’ll even copy it for you: “Which brings us to the deepest point in this argument: when you argue that we should ban abortion because the black market won’t be so bad, you are saying we should pass a law partly because it won’t be enforced. That is a bad reason to make ANY law. I’m not even arguing here against unenforcable laws in general (although those are goofy too), but in this case unenforcability is being used as a positive talking point by supporters of a ban. Cuckoo! ”
SOMG,
OK, if they weren’t doctors discreetly performing abortions in their offices, I knew of a few, then the backstreet hacks were doing a fantastic job over the years of reducing the deathrate. We should have let them stay in business.
One will never know about the large majority of illegal abortions? How interesting. So in fact most may have been safely done in a doctor’s office and there may not have been that many performed.
Well it doesn’t sound like some of the abortionists mentioned in previous threads much concerned themselves with running an illegal business, sexually molesting patients, allowing unqualified “doctors” to operate, or running dirty clinics. Even Tiller’s staff, which didn’t have brains enough to call 911 40 minutes after a patient collapsed in their clinic, something any school child would know enough to do.
Apparently there was little concern in all these instances for legal repercussions.
The sixties? Any statisitics on the number of illegal abortions?
Your last paragraph doesn’t make a lot of sense but I will say this. Laws against abortion apparently worked since even you acknowledge that 48 million abortions may not have occured without Roe v Wade.
If we pass laws that will not always be strictly enforced or followeed, we’ll have to repeal every law on the book and not pass any more.
Laws against rape are not strictly enforced or adhered to and they don’t stop rape. As far as I’m concerned they should be even stricter.
You wrote: “One will never know about the large majority of illegal abortions? How interesting. So in fact most may have been safely done in a doctor’s office and there may not have been that many performed.”
No way to tell. All we have are anecdotes.
You wrote: “Laws against abortion apparently worked since even you acknowledge that 48 million abortions may not have occured without Roe v Wade.”
That doesn’t imply that they worked, it implies that they MIGHT work but also might not. No way to measure it. If they DID work, you’d never know it.
You wrote: “If we pass laws [I think you mean if we REPEAL laws] that will not always be strictly enforced or followeed, we’ll have to repeal every law on the book and not pass any more.”
Do you know how to read??? I specifically said, “I’m not … arguing here against unenforcable laws in general …. ”
You wrote: “Laws against rape are not strictly enforced or adhered to…”
They’re not?
You wrote: “… and they don’t stop rape. ”
They don’t?
Even if they don’t, they have other purposes besides preventing rapes. For instance, they give rape victims a way to retaliate against their rapists. That’s a good in itself even if it doesn’t prevent rapes.
You wrote: “Well it doesn’t sound like some of the abortionists mentioned in previous threads much concerned themselves with running an illegal business, sexually molesting patients, allowing unqualified “doctors” to operate, or running dirty clinics.”
Yawn. I could make a list of bad practicioners in any speciality. Numbers please.
“Sexually molesting patients”: RTLs often accuse abortion docs of sexually molesting patients. PCs respond by pointing to the pedophile priests. I say, whether you’re in more danger of being molested by an abortion doc or a priest depends mostly on your gender.
SOMG,
So maybe before Roe v Wade women were not having abortions in great numbers, all women would not resort to back alley abortions no matter what, and laws really did work at curbing abortion.
Maybe laws against abortion were indeed enforcable.
Let me see, 48 million abortions since Roe v Wade. Maybe, just maybe, legalizing abortion did in fact cause a marked increase when there may not have been one otherwise.
I read fine SOMG its your paragraph that didn’t make a lot of sense.
What I mean by rape laws not being strictly adhered to is that they do not stop the determined rapist and do not always result in a rapist being caught or punished.
The purpose of rape laws are to prevent rape and capture and punish rapists, period. Sadly a woman may not always have a way to retaliate. Her attacker may not being caught, legal technicalities, lack of evidence, police or prosecutor incompetence or a jury can set a rapist free.
I was pointing out not just incompetence, but your response to my comment that modern day abortion docs don’t fear complications or do anything to prevent them.
Let me see, Hodari who admits he doesn’t always wash his hands between patients, Bertha Burgarin running clinics in California and aborting patients without a license, the New Jersey clinic closed down after such filthy conditions as rusted instruments were found, and a severly injured patient wound up in intensive care. Then there’s Tiller who hires people off the street to supervise the care of patients and administer drugs.
I just wanted to point out SOMG that you could stop ROFL and dust yourself off.
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