Pro-life video of the day: Is a pig more human than a human fetus?
by Hans Johnson
Evolutionist and noted atheist Richard Dawkins tweeted on March 13: “With respect to those meanings of ‘human’ that are relevant to the morality of abortion, any fetus is less human than an adult pig.”
He goes on in other tweets to claim aspects of being human include the “ability to feel pain, fear, etc. and to be mourned by others.” Yet these are true of many mammals. He also states that hair and fingernails are as human as an embryo because they “don’t feel pain.”
Wesley J. Smith says it well:
No, they are human cells that come from an organism that is a member of our species. A human being is an organism of our species. Dawkins is no more human today than when he was a one-celled organism in his mother’s Fallopian tube. Perhaps no more morally astute, either.
“earlysda” put up this YouTube video to counter Dawkins:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EalSRgSfJmc[/youtube]
Email dailyvid@jillstanek.com with your video suggestions.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Is a pig more human than a human fetus…lol NO!
Praying for Dawkins.
Well I think a lot of animals have more in common with humans than most people think, but I don’t use that view to justify killing humans. I just don’t eat animals either!
Well Dawkins should know all about an adult pig seeing it takes one to know one. ZING!
Sorry…I couldn’t resist.
I’ll see Syndey’s quip and raise you this:
I declare that a fetal pig is more humane than an adult Richard Dawkins. And cuter.
I agree with Jack. A pig is a pig, not a human being, but I believe pigs deserve our respect and compassion. I believe we should not be killing and eating them.
I’d really rather see us elevate non-human animals so that they receive the respect we hold for human beings, than lower human beings to the level of disrespect with which we treat non-human animals.
So according to Dawkins, Ashyln Blocker isn’t as human as her siblings. And a fictional princess that can feel a pea underneath 100 mattresses is more human than any of us.
Just out of curiosity, when was the last time Richard Dawkins actually did any science? Also, why does it seem to only be men that claim women don’t grieve miscarriages?
Comparing people you want to kill to animals has been quite common throughout history.
It is funny that pro-aborts accuse pro-lifers of being unscientific and/or getting their beliefs only from religion, yet they constantly wax poetic on a bunch of pseudo-philosophical, completely arbitrary ideas about the nature of humanity. A person is a person if they are mourned by others? Yeah, that’s scientific.
The truth is, a human fetus is a human sapiens, and therefore a human being. Acknowledge this simple fact and you won’t mentally exhaust yourself trying to rationalize mass murder.
Richard Dawkins may be an evolutionist, but he’s not a very good one. By any theory of evolution I’ve heard, a human is a human and a pig is a pig, whatever the respective stages of development. In evolutionary theory, a human is the most highly developed of all animals, whatever the stage. That is true in spite of any impressions we might get from Dawkins and others who devalue human life and give approval to the killing of the most helpless and innocent of human beings.
How does Dawkins or how does anyone else know a very young preborn child doesn’t feel pain? Maybe we just don’t have the technology to sense it yet. I have fibromyalgia and I’ll tell you that a lot of doctors did not know I was in pain and in fact said that sense they didn’t sense it, then it wasn’t there. And I was in my 40’s then. Do they know this because the brain isn’t developed yet?
Well, how do they really know that? Doctors underestimate the brain capacity and the capacity to feel pain of people, from birth to death, all the time.
Besides, does it even matter? From conception, that baby has everything any person has that makes it human. He or she just needs the nourishment and development that people like Dawkins want to rob them of for gain and political correctness.
Dawkins is a bad evolutionist, but he does a great job in bowing to the idol Political Correctness.
By the way that video is awesome. I will be saving it and sharing it. Thanks.
The theory of evolution doesn’t state that humans are the most “highly developed” animal (which is a nonsensical statement in regards to evolution anyway).
I’m with Jack – we should be treating animals better, not treating humans worse. Though I don’t go so far as to say it’s immoral to eat meat, you definitely don’t have a right to eat meat cheaply regardless of what has to happen to the animals to make that happen.
Jack, I’ve studied evolution. Unless the textbooks have changed very recently, that’s what they said.
So why exactly is that a nonsensical statement in regards to evolution? What statement would you make? Are humans a lower form of animals? Lower than which animals?
Animals evolve to better suit their environment. No animal is higher or lower than any other, just some are adapted better to different environments. Humans would be totally screwed if we lived at the bottom of the ocean, the Artic, or in the desert without a lot of artificial environmental control. So, when you say humans are a higher form of animal it doesn’t make any sense. Better in what ways? More intelligent (if intelligence is based on sentience), sure. Better hearing? Nope. Best at swimming? Not by far. Better at using tools, yes. Animals are all “better evolved” depending on what their circumstances.
Jack, is that what the textbooks say, or is that what you say?
Even if it’s true, then as I said that is a very recent and new theory of evolution, which is no better than the old one. However it would be a theory that would fit better with the views of of those who claim people are no better than any other animals.
Which in turn justifies killing unborn children. Then again, it justifies killing human beings at any stage. Unless we are not supposed to kill any animals, every, under any circumstances. Because if no animal is higher or lower than any other, than we don’t even have the right to kill mosquitoes who might bite us, or start an outbreak of malaria.
“Jack, is that what the textbooks say, or is that what you say?
Even if it’s true, then as I said that is a very recent and new theory of evolution, which is no better than the old one. However it would be a theory that would fit better with the views of of those who claim people are no better than any other animals.”
It’s… not new? It’s just basic evolution. Animals adapt to their environments through natural selection, yada yada. In one environment an animal could be in their perfect niche for their traits, while they’d die in another. Humans included, we’re not better.
” Which in turn justifies killing unborn children. Then again, it justifies killing human beings at any stage. Unless we are not supposed to kill any animals, every, under any circumstances. Because if no animal is higher or lower than any other, than we don’t even have the right to kill mosquitoes who might bite us, or start an outbreak of malaria.”
Always a straw man. You believe in self-defense, even if you think that humans are so much better than animals. You believe that if someone comes into your home you can defend yourself and your family with deadly force if necessary. Same applies to other animals in a pro-all life (as much as possible) view.
Hi CT,
While I am for the humane treatment of animals, nothing is more brutal to animals than other animals. Nature isn’t a Disney film where our furry friends frolic with one another and sniff flowers. Nature is a brutal, and very inhumane, daily struggle to survive.
I remember how my cat loved to torment and play with her living, and sometimes severely injured prey, before finally killing them. Its not like we starved her. She simply followed her instincts as a predator and killer.
I abhor seeing magnificent animals like elephants, bears, and the great cats performing in circuses. I have no problem with eating meat as I am firmly convinced humans are carnivores and our bodies are designed as such. Our ancestors had to kill their food up front and personal, we have the luxury of not watching the process.
I remember one account of a group of Canadian Indians who wanted to live in the traditional ways of their ancestors, as hunter, trappers, and traders. Of course the environmentalists were ecstatic, the animal rights people not so much so. Why the Indians would be killing animals! The Indians thought the animal lovers were completely nuts. Its how our ancestors lived for thousands of years, its what the animals are for! How else do you think people survived?
Good question.
Amazing. Dawkins says “With respect to those meanings of ‘human’ that are relevant to the morality of abortion, any fetus is less human than an adult pig.” and you all (with one or two exceptions) climb all over it with ‘Ha, a human is a human and a pig is a pig.’
Do you not see the point of what he said or do you choose not to? Wesley J. Smith may have a smug smile on his face at his witty repartee, but he simply demonstrates his accidental or intentional missing of the point.
Priceless.
Peta people eating tasty animals!
Not giving up my meat:)
Dawkins either uses or disowns science, depending on his purposes. Silliness.
I do believe the traditional evolution textbooks say that the human brain is the most highly developed.
(Right next to the paragraph that says in the beginning there was nothing and it exploded, or that all matter was condensed into this period right – here. That is one heavy dot.)
But really, the complexity of our language faculties poses a major problem for anyone who claims otherwise. And yes, I know a good deal about animal communication and ape language. Note that this does not mean more developed in every aspect … or even “better” in all ways. I’m a vegetarian as well, as I don’t like eating animals I pet, even though I do not think it is wrong to eat meat.
“ I have no problem with eating meat as I am firmly convinced humans are carnivores and our bodies are designed as such. Our ancestors had to kill their food up front and personal, we have the luxury of not watching the process.”
Human beings are omnivores, not carnivores. It would be extremely unhealthy to eat a diet of only meat. While I’m sure that’s not what you meant to say, I am also sure it is highly possible for the human body to thrive on a meatless diet. We weren’t meant to eat tons of meat. The amount of meat, especially red meat, in the typical American diet is the cause of countless health problems such as heart attacks, obesity, and even certain types of cancer, just to name a few.
I do agree with you that PETA is crazy though. I am all for animal rights, and I eat no meat, but if I had the ability to hunt, I would prefer that over our current factory farming. It’s not a luxury to not have to watch your food being slaughtered. It’s unnatural, and unfortunate for the animals. If most Americans knew how their food was raised and killed, I would think we’d have a lot more vegetarians.
Now onto the point. Pigs are highly intelligent, sentient creatures, yet we treat them far more horribly than we do aborted fetuses. Yet, other than a few notable groups, you don’t see people holding “pro life” marches for pigs. I’m positive that Dawkins knows that a pig is not a human being. That’s beside the point.
I’m seeing a lot of good things on this post though, I have to say, other than the usual silliness…
People eating tasty animals? Rude.
PETA is insane though, true. They embarrass me as a vegetarian. And they are hypocritical, they euthanize animals in their shelters by the thousands.
“Do you not see the point of what he said or do you choose not to? Wesley J. Smith may have a smug smile on his face at his witty repartee, but he simply demonstrates his accidental or intentional missing of the point.”
Yeah, I got what Dawkins was saying. I just think its a far better goal to treat all living creatures better. Pig or human fetus, both are living animals.
“Dawkins either uses or disowns science, depending on his purposes.” – no he doesn’t.
“…in the beginning there was nothing and it exploded, or that all matter was condensed into this period right – here.” – I see you haven’t caught up with the current knowledge then.
Well said A7x. Nice to know some people were able to get Dawkins’ point.
Hi A,
Our ancestors survived on hunting, fishing, eggs, and eating berries, nuts, and some vegetation. Diets were mainly meat, especially before farming. I believe introducing wheat and gluten into our diets is what has led to health problems. Red meat has been given a bum rap it doesn’t deserve. From the research I have done, we should live on a high protein/animal fat diet with minimal veggies and carbs. Of course you hear all kinds of opinions and see all kinds of exceptions. I am convinced our bodies were designed to be carnivores, but that we adapted to other foods, mainly out of necessity.
I eat lots of meat, fish, eggs, bacon, protein, minimal gluten, some fruit and veggies.
I get our eggs from the Amish farmers, our chicken from a producer who hires Amish families to raise them under very strict guidelines, my daughter and I went in on having a range fed organic cow butchered and bought the meat, I drink raw farm milk, and my daughter, who must restrict her diet because of borderline diabetes, adheres strictly to the “caveman” diet. She feed her pet cats chicken gizzards that you can buy very cheaply at the store. The cats love it. I had to laugh because her vet was concerned the gizzards weren’t cooked. Oh, so cats cook mice before eating them?
BTW, a great natural sugar substitute is xylitol. My husband is diabetic and we use it like sugar. Guests don’t even know the difference.
You cannot tell people not to eat meat..i will continue to eat meat. I remember when KFC was the big target for PETA and I believe Pam Anderson was leading the group.
I have heard that the human body does need meat. If you don’t want to eat it then don’t ..if you do then do!!!
no he doesn’t.
Confusing parts with wholes is sort of serious, you know. Especially coming from a biology professor. It might not have been his main point, but it undermines his credibility.
You still don’t understand the point of his remark then Navi?
I eat a steak of some sort once a week. I have chicken in some form twice a week. Fish twice also. Bacon on sunday mornings or on pizza. Eggs with the bacon or in cakes. I eat quite a bit of rice and some vegetables. All hail diversity and moderation!
Your menu makes me gag Reality. :) Except for the rice and veggies.
I can tell people not to eat meat Heather. They just aren’t obligated to listen.
Mary, early humans were probably similar to chimps in that they mostly ate a non-meat based diet with the occasional meat meal.
Reality I eat meat like you do BUT not in my cake! Yak.
Hi Jack,
Did chimps hunt with bows and spears? Did they fish? Did they cause the mammoths to go extinct? Did they wear animal skins, other than their own?
Our ancestors were carnivores, and diets modified as farming developed and depending on the regions people lived in. Check out some of the more “primitive” hunting and gathering societies that still exist to see how our ancestors ate. They hoped for a successful hunt or fishing, nothing went to waste which meant eating bone marrow, hearts, intestine, etc., and the diet is subsidized out of necessity by eggs, which is animal protein, berries, nuts, and edible vegetation. Most of these people don’t farm because its impossible in their environment or they just have no knowledge of farming.
Jack with all due respect I’m really not trying to start a war. I just eat animals..but to be clear i do NOT condone abuse or neglect of pets!! I’ve had dogs before and I loved my dogs. I’ve owned a horse also. Rode for 10 years. Sometimes this blog is just a place to agree to disagree. sorry about the PETA crack.
“I eat meat like you do BUT not in my cake” - you really need to focus a little more Heather or find a better medium. – ‘Eggs with the bacon or in cakes.’
Hi Reality,
I hope the rice is brown and the fish isn’t farmed. I always check that the salmon we buy is wild caught. Also, I special order tuna to keep mercury to a minimum. Eggs and bacon are great and you should have them every day. There’s always turkey bacon if you have an aversion to pigs. I try to. Eggs are nature’s most perfect food. Drink whole milk and eat butter. Skim milk is nothing but worthless, and fattening, sugar water. 1 and 2% milk is only a little less worthless. Be careful of chicken. “Organic” and “free range” sources should be checked out on the internet. Also, if you can get your eggs directly from the farm, that’s best. I love my visits to the Amish store where I stock up on eggs.
I also minimize gluten. I do notice less joint pain.
Okay reality i will put it on the “to do” list
I’m not giving up my meat either, but there are points between killing every farm animal you encounter and treating every animal as if it were a human being. This is one of the reasons I eat pork (of any sort, even bacon) very rarely. There are a lot of things about the meat industry that need to change because they are unnecessarily cruel.
“..in the beginning there was nothing and it exploded, or that all matter was condensed into this period right – here.” – I see you haven’t caught up with the current knowledge then.”
By “traditional textbooks” I meant old school, circa … when I went to school. – not referring to current evolutionary religion.
“I hope the rice is brown” – nope, white.
“and the fish isn’t farmed” – locally caught.
“Eggs and bacon are great and you should have them every day.” – every day? Apart from becoming boring I’m not sure that that would be overly healthy.
“Drink whole milk” – apart from in cakes and with cereal about once a month I don’t drink milk.
“and eat butter” – nope.
“Organic” and “free range” sources should be checked out on the internet.” – I know the actual farm it comes from.
“Also, if you can get your eggs directly from the farm” – I can’t but they are guaranteed free range.
“evolutionary religion” – nice try but no such thing exists :-)
Hi Reality,
Eggs are nature’s most perfect food. Eat all you want. Animal fats and protein are very healthy.
Locally caught. It doesn’t get better than that. Know the farm. Doesn’t get better than that.
Butter and whole milk have the fats your body needs. Fat isn’t the culprit and it doesn’t make you fat. I’m not a big milk drinker either but I LOVE butter. Check out how margarine is made. Gross.
You still don’t understand the point of his remark then Navi?
I understand the main idea (characteristics like pain capacity determine the morality of abortion, and they’re more present in a pig than they are in an embryo, so the pig’s moral status is closer to that of a human than the embryo). But it does not even make sense to say that a toenail can’t feel pain. Cutting your nails doesn’t hurt, but cutting your finger does (yet we would not say that the finger is “pain capable”). It’s only meaningful to question whether or not an organism can feel pain. Doing otherwise would be a type error. It would be like questioning whether the letter Z tastes sour, or whether the colour red is divisible by four.
The meaning of his remark encompassed more than just pain Navi.
“But it does not even make sense to say that a toenail can’t feel pain. Cutting your nails doesn’t hurt, but cutting your finger does (yet we would not say that the finger is “pain capable”).” – que?
Mary,
I agree with about everything you’ve said, as per usual. Organic and free-range is the way to go. If only enough people would switch so that the prices could come down. And I’ve only been drinking raw milk for at least five years. I wish I could say I’ve seen a real difference, but maybe I don’t know how bad off I’d be without it. It’s proponents really make sense. Homogenized, pasteurized milk really is just liquid chalk in comparison.
However, in recent years they’ve well documented chimps savagely sending out hunting parties for monkeys. It’s enough to upset even Jane Goodall.
The meaning of his remark encompassed more than just pain Navi.
Not much really.
Reality,
Your sardonic comebacks would be much more effective if you actually explicated exactly what and for what reason you agreed with Dawkins.
That he’s an atheist homeboy, we already get. ;)
Jack you don’t even know what I believe, and that wasn’t a straw man, and nothing you said showed that it was. And we don’t kill babies in the womb in self-defense, except in the rare cases when the child must die so that the woman will live.
As to evolution I still don’t agree with you but that’s not my concern. My concern is any view of life that devalues human life. The results of a generation living in such a culture of death are obvious, all around us, and they are not pretty.
But what does it matter if a human is no more valuable than a pig, right?
It’s at the top of the page Hans. You too Navi. In black and white – “…aspects of being human include the “ability to feel pain, fear, etc. and to be mourned by others.” He was indicating that a pig has greater sentience, self awareness than a human fetus. The aspects which may be seen as defining such things as ‘personhood’.
“That he’s an atheist homeboy” – actually he travels the world extensively and he doesn’t wear a backwards cap ;-)
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/482813_169720163177734_1381628027_n.jpg
He was indicating that a pig has greater sentience, self awareness than a human fetus. The aspects which may be seen as defining such things as ‘personhood’.
Bad news for anyone in a coma.
Is that meant to be at all meaningful xalisae?
Or impart a rational message?
Or provide evidence for anything?
Or is it just the usual overly-simplistic, selective quote-mining anti-choicers are so fond of?
It was a succinct way to point out the man’s folly, Reality.
This girl would beg to differ with him.
And, so would I.
On an unrelated note, my Dad’s mother just passed away less than an hour ago or so. My Mother’s mother was lost at the end of last year as well. This is a hard time for my family right now. I would appreciate it if you kept us in your thoughts.
I’m sorry X. :( Take care.
I’m so sorry for your loss xalisae :( My condolences.
What is it that you and Dawkins don’t get about “sentience” and “humanity”, Reality? Humans at their youngest age are so much more than a pig at any age. Because they have the potential (oh how the pro-aborts love that word) to become a really true-blue impactful human. A pig, not so much.
If you had something that you knew would be worth a million bucks in a few months, I don’t think you’d be tossing it out. Well, we think human lives are worth that now and as they grow and “accrue” their “sentience” and other talents.
X keeping u in my thoughts and prayers..I’m so very sorry:(
Hi Hans,
Chimps send out hunting parties for monkeys? I certainly hope they are humane and sensitive when they catch them.
I understand chimps are extremely vicious, unpredictable, and deadly, and even cannibalize their own, correct me if I’m wrong. Their strength can be superhuman. When that poor woman had her face torn off by her friend’s chimp, it took several shots for the police officer to finally kill the thing.
We humans tend to give animals human traits, that we can turn them into our “children” or project emotions and feelings onto them they have no capacity for. Then we’re so shocked when they revert back to what they are genetically programmed to do, and someone winds up injured or dead because of it.
What anyone finds appealing about a hairy, ugly chimp, except maybe a mother chimp, is beyond me.
When it comes to free range chicken be careful though. Chickens naturally cluster and “free range” may be nothing more than an open barn door. Also, chickens peck at anything, including waste and dead rodents. Allowing them “free range” may not be so healthful. No, I’m no self proclaimed expert on chickens, I just did a little internet research on the source of my chicken. Make certain to check the source of your chicken. Mine comes from a large conglomorate that has Amish farmers raise the chickens under very strict standards.
Hi X,
My sincerest sympathy to you and your family.
The same as those above, x. :(
“Blessed are those who mourn…” But that’s not all that makes us a human.
Thank you, everyone. I appreciate your thoughts and prayers so very, VERY much. You’re all like an extended family to me, and I mean that sincerely.
“It was a succinct way to point out the man’s folly, Reality” – no it wasn’t. It’s exactly what I said it was.
“This girl would beg to differ with him.” – which girl? Your link shows a film about three girls. Is it your ‘research’ which has failed in this instance or mine?
“And, so would I.” – sounds like you’ve understood the breadth of Dawkins’ remark about as much as Navi did.
Sadness for you and yours.
X..death came knocking on my door much too soon so i know your pain. I’m so very sorry for your loss. You will be in my thoughts for sure.
“Jack you don’t even know what I believe, and that wasn’t a straw man, and nothing you said showed that it was. And we don’t kill babies in the womb in self-defense, except in the rare cases when the child must die so that the woman will live.”
I don’t see why you think I’m arguing for abortion, I am pretty darn against it. I’m arguing against the assertion that you have to think humans are somehow on some better plane of existence from other animals to want to protect human life, or that it’s devaluing to humans to think that we’re simply one part of the animal kingdom. The self-defense point was to show you that it’s not absolutely necessary to protect every single animal’s life even if you do think that they are deserving of rights and protections.
“As to evolution I still don’t agree with you but that’s not my concern. My concern is any view of life that devalues human life. The results of a generation living in such a culture of death are obvious, all around us, and they are not pretty.
But what does it matter if a human is no more valuable than a pig, right?”
Humans are going to be more valuable to other humans because we belong to the same species. It’s self-preservation and biological. It doesn’t require us to be above or below however you define those words. You don’t have to believe in a soul, you don’t have to believe that you are more special than any other creature to realize that you are human, and that it’s rational self-interest to want to create a society that protects all human beings.
Mary,
It’s no wonder chimps and pigs are among our favorite animals when they – and we- are young. But when they get older, look out! Did you hear of the man who fell into a pig pen and was totally devoured? Bert Lahr’s character had good reason to be “cowardly” in the beginning of The Wizard of Oz!
“Humans at their youngest age are so much more than a pig at any age” – really? How’s that then?
“Because they have the potential” – ah, potential. That’s great but it doesn’t negate Dawkins’ point.
Reality,
I confess to only flashing to x’s link, too. But I immediately guessed the girls had a condition where they couldn’t feel pain. A big bucket of duh, as several have said here.
Now I’ll check the link a little more thoroughly to make sure I haven’t been splashed with some “duh”.
Hi Hans,
I have heard the same thing about pigs. My brother worked mob detail years ago for a big city police dept. and suspects that a few high profile disappearances wound up being disposed of in mob owned pigpens.
Mary @ 9:09pm I am far too tipsy and tired to talk about chimps tonight lol, but I’ll get back to you.
I don’t get why people think that those who think animals should be protected from human harm are, like, in denial about the violence in the animal kingdom. I just think that since humans evolved more ability for sentience and self-control, that most other animals don’t have, that we have a responsible to not just go around killing animals when we have other options. I do think there’s enough evidence that humans are only slightly omnivorous, and that it’s not damaging and usually healthy to cut most meat and some animal products out of your diet. And yada yada no one cares I’ll hop off the soapbox now.
So sorry, x! Big hugs!
“Jack with all due respect I’m really not trying to start a war. I just eat animals..but to be clear i do NOT condone abuse or neglect of pets!! I’ve had dogs before and I loved my dogs. I’ve owned a horse also. Rode for 10 years. Sometimes this blog is just a place to agree to disagree. sorry about the PETA crack.”
Lol it’s fine. It just weirds me out that people like to eat meat and make jokes about it. It really always has. And I swear I am getting more fanatical about it lately which is really not cool, so yeah agree to disagree.
Mary,
Yeah, two tv series recently had bodies disposed of that way.
I do think the Biblical dietary laws are still worthy, because these animals are all scavengers and bottom-feeders that are much more more prone to have diseases, cysts, and what-not. I now notice unpleasant digestive results with the occasional ham sandwich.
However, bacon is mighty good! ;)
I know Jack..i should have showed a little more tact. Anyway i know vegetarians. I’m fine with that but i also know that animals will never stop being killed for food. I really can meet you half way on animals being killed to make clothing. I remember an episode of the surreal life. Eric Estrada and Vanilla Ice were hung out to dry for grilling a steak by baywatch beauty Tracy Bingham . But the 2 men called her a hypocrite because she wore real fur and leather . She had no defense walked away and Eric n Ice kept cooking.
“I am far too tipsy” – you been hanging out with truthseeker?
But i can see it your way also.
“I know Jack..i should have showed a little more tact. Anyway i know vegetarians. I’m fine with that but i also know that animals will never stop being killed for food. I really can meet you half way on animals being killed to make clothing. I remember an episode of the surreal life. Eric Estrada and Vanilla Ice were hung out to dry for grilling a steak by baywatch beauty Tracy Bingham . But the 2 men called her a hypocrite because she wore real fur and leather . She had no defense walked away and Eric n Ice kept cooking.”
Anyone who doesn’t eat meat for moral reasons but thinks it’s moral to wear animal products when there are literally thousands of other clothing options is just ridiculous and hypocritical. And yeah I agree with you. I know I’ll never see eating meat end (though I would love to see animals raised for food treated a lot better and not so much meat consumption), but I think it’s possible to end animal testing and wearing animal products.
I really only have a problem with eating meat when there are other options. I don’t blame poor or isolated people for eating meat if it’s their healthiest option, and I don’t blame like Inuits for wearing furs if it’s necessary. It’s just when it’s not necessary I think it’s immoral imo.
““I am far too tipsy” – you been hanging out with truthseeker?”
Lol nope I can make dumb decisions sitting alone at my house just fine. :D
Tipsy?!
But what about all those poor little yeast(s?), Jack?!
Totally kidding. (My brother once made me cry for eating a cupcake – he gave it a voice pleading with me not to eat “him.”)
“Tipsy?!
But what about all those poor little yeast(s?), Jack?!
Totally kidding. (My brother once made me cry for eating a cupcake – he gave it a voice pleading with me not to eat “him.”)”
Lol well I decided to stop eating meat when I was like seven I think, maybe a little older (it was years after that my mom stopped making me eat it anyway). I remember telling my sisters and brother that they were murdering animals while they ate their burgers or whatever. They didn’t cry, they just got mad at me lol.
Yeah Jack we could go on n on but one for the rd. i remember when Chloe kardshian joined peta and her sister kim was flour bombed for wearing fur. chloe resigned saying i will not be a part of a group who would bully anyone. i am stepping down.
PETA does some good things but there is always a few bad seeds in every group .
Are always a few bad seeds yawn..time for bed
Well, in PETA’s case it seems like a bad apple with a few good seeds. Seriously, they are so dumb and they make us all look like raving loons. They objectify women in their creepy shock ads, bully people, stalk people, and freaking kill animals when that’s literally the only reason they exist! Can’t stand them.
I am so sorry Xalisae.
Praying for you and your family.
PETA is horrible! They give all animal rights groups a bad name. When I tell people that I’m a vegetarian, more often than not, they ask me if I agree with PETA. drives me nuts.
Believe whatever you want about the carnivore issue, if your diet works, great. But look at our digestive system. True carnivores (few of which exist) have a very simplistic, straight tract. A shark, or a cat for example. If humans were all meant to be true carnivores, there would be a lot fewer of us. Nobody could be a vegetarian if we were truly meant to live on a meat only diet. Clearly there are vegans and vegetarians who thrive on the diet. Look at Scott Jurek, for example.
I don’t really think that difficulty of life in the animal kingdom is relevant when it comes to wanting more ethical treatment of animals. I think it’s way, way more ethical for a deer or whatever to have a normal deer life, foraging for food, running around, etc, that eventually ends in a few moments of violence, than for thousands upon thousands of cows to be pumped full of hormones and crowded into places where they can’t even move, and I think it’s fine to have a problem with one and not the other. I don’t have a problem with raising animals for the specific purpose of eating them, but I think that it is disgusting and wrong to act like just because an animal is eventually going to die, you can do whatever you want to it. We’re all going to die. Death doesn’t mean that life doesn’t matter; it means life matters A LOT.
Nobody is owed cheap meat, and systematically abusing animals just to keep meat cheap is an unsustainable system as well as an unethical one.
I definitely eat meat, and enjoy it. But I think that it is my obligation to be as ethical about my consumption (or any product) as is reasonable for me. With meat, that is actually quite reasonable (moreso than with, say clothing, where there are just layers upon layers of factors going as far back as the freaking cotton production). I just buy my meat and eggs at my local famer’s market. I recognize that is not an option for everyone but I believe that by supporting ethical production of meat, I can help to expand those options for more people. It is more expensive and that cost does prohibit me from eating meat at every meal, or every day, but I think that’s a diet that pretty closely mimics how people lived for centuries anyway. You also don’t need to eat HUGE amounts of meat just to eat meat. ie a dish I frequently make is tomatoes stuffed with ground beef. Scoop out the tomato insides, brown some ground beef, chop up the tomato insides and whatever other vegetables you’d like to include, throw them in the skillet with the meat. Stuff the beef/veggie mixture into the tomatoes, top with some parmesan, and throw it all into the oven for about 25 minutes. A half pound of ground beef easily stretches across four large stuffed tomatoes that way. I usually serve this with a side dish heavy on a fat, just to add a bit more satiety since everyone is getting relatively little of the fat from the meat. ie green beans in a browned butter sauce, or a salad with avocado, etc. Or I whip up a chocolate mousse or something for dessert.
Bottom line is, I am healthier when eating meat, and so are a lot of people. I also enjoy it. This does not give me the moral right to meat in any quantity, at any cost. It is healthier for me, healthier for our ecosystem, and a moral obligation to boot, that I try to limit my participation in the meat industry to animals that have been ethically raised, fed, and killed. Just my $.02.
I eat meat. I love it. I crave it. I will always eat it.
The problem with the “evolutionary religion” (and it is kinda a religion to some people) is that it makes humans only an animal. Some may claim they wish that that would make animals treated better not humans treated worse but that isn’t the way it generally works.
As a Christian I believe humans are special because we are the only part of God’s creation created in His image. This is also why Satan wants to attack us and destroy us. He wants to destroy the image of God hence abortion, immorality etc…
Christ shed His blood for mankind not for animals. God was not against wearing fur. He clothed Adam and Eve with animals skins. He is God. He could have created any kind of clothing for them but He chose fur.
Humans are classified as part of the animal kingdom yet we are expected to not act like animals. If humans started mating in public that would be frowned upon. If someone defecated and then flung his poo (like some animals do…animals that they claim we are related to, btw) people would be disgusted. We are told we are nothing but animals but yet we are not to act like animals…huh.
And everyone lay off Heather. She just lost her husband a few weeks ago. So if she wants to make a Peta joke or she doesn’t comprehend your rambling about bacon and eggs…get over it.
Xalisae, I’m so sorry, and you are in my prayers.
Jack, I never said you were for abortion, and I’m sorry if I left that impression. I was simply arguing against abortion, because that’s at least part of what this blog post is all about.
That’s why I’m not going to go back and forth with you about evolution anymore, to me it’s not really the point, and I shouldn’t have gotten into it.
My pro-life views are not based on the theory of evolution, anyway. They are based on my belief that, according to the Bible, God created us in His image. That is why human life is unique and to be valued more than animal life. And to be clear, I am not anti-animal, quite the contrary. I have a dog I am very attached to; I am disabled and he provides me great companionship and comfort. I have always said that he is my rescue dog. I rescued him, and he rescued me.
You may or may not agree with my Biblical belief about the sanctity of life; I don’t know. Many people don’t agree, and some of them are anti-abortion. You don’t have to believe the Bible at all to be against abortion, and it seems as though we have some common ground there.
So, Jack, I’ll leave it at that.
Man, I am sorry I missed this.
For the record, if you’d come to visit my family in the evening to watch a TV show, you’d see my dogs on the sofa, snoring, and my kids on the floor, with pillows.
Each in its own place.
Alexandra, can you come and cook for me lol? that meal sounds delicious! (although I’d substitute meatless crumbles for the beef)
So you’re a Christian, great..convince me, as a nonbeliever, why I should believe that humans are so unique and special that we deserve to do whatever we want to the earth, and to other animals?
No one is saying we should do whatever we want to animals. I think we’re all in agreement that we should treat them humanely. But it would just be nice if people like Dawkins would treat all innocent humans humanely.
I’m no vegetarian, but at the very least I do reject veal because these calves have been the most notoriously ill-treated.
Sydney thank you much! :)..,, Jack on a serious note I know very little about PETA…what do they do that is evil? I’m just curious because i have no idea.
Heather I want to apologize if I hurt your feelings. Been going through a rough time myself, and I tend to be a snarky jerk when I am depressed. So I’m really sorry if I hurt your feelings.
Anyway, PETA is hugely hypocritical. The shelters they run euthanize hundreds of animals per year when they are supposed to be no-kill, and apparently the conditions aren’t great for the animals either. They also stalk celebrities and cause them a lot of problems for wearing fur. Their ads tend to have women in objectifying and offensive poses for shock value (and sex sells). They are also pro-choice, which doesn’t bother a lot of vegetarians but I don’t like it lol. They just make the whole animal rights movement look like whack jobs and sets us back.
So you’re a Christian, great..convince me, as a nonbeliever, why I should believe that humans are so unique and special that we deserve to do whatever we want to the earth, and to other animals?
Wait, was that directed at me too, or just the first part about cooking? I’m not a Christian and don’t believe in a god.
Oh and I don’t know if you want me cooking for you, A7x! I didn’t learn to cook until my mid-20s and I am 30 now so I’m still pretty noob at it. Actually, one of the main reasons I often don’t cook meat at home is that I’m secretly worried I’ll poison myself, lol. It’s hard to cook a vegetable SO BADLY that it makes you physically ill, you know?
Another common trick of mine is orzo, cooked in broth rather than water but toasted lightly in butter before adding the broth. Chop up some mushrooms and cook them in with it, add a pack of frozen peas near the end. Stir a ton of parmesan in. Poor man’s risotto!
My observation of late is that non-theists (atheists and agnostics) are the better cooks :-)
Lol. I’m an excellent cook. I just refuse to cook dead animal carcasses. My ex and I used to fight about it, she wanted gross stuff like steak for dinner and I wouldn’t cook it, told her she could make it herself.
Mmmm, steak. A lovely once a week indulgance.
Don’t oil the pan, rub oil on the meat.
Once dropped into the pan, oiled side down of course, sprinkle a little red wine on it.
Yum!
That’s disgusting Reality. Blech.
Actually I don’t think I have ever eaten steak. The only meats I actually remember the taste of are ground beef (seriously the grossest stuff ever), chicken (gag) and bacon (which actually isn’t too bad, still gross though).
That sounds pretty great, Reality.
I go way overboard on bacon. I’m okay in a diner where they give you, like, 3 or 4 pieces, but if we just make a huge batch at home I will literally eat like 6 pieces (or even more) before I even stop to wonder how many I’ve eaten. I think bacon is the only food in the world where I actually somewhat consciously monitor how much of it I eat, and how many times per week (or, in some shameful situations, per day). Normally I am a “listen to my body” kind of gal but I often need to remind myself: “bacon is a sometimes food.” I am really really lucky that I have a physically active job, and live in a walking city, because at 5′ tall, there’s not a whole lot of room to hide a bacon addiction.
Low fat or lean ground beef is great for bolognaise sauces which can be used in a variety of ways.
Chicken and bacon work together well.
Ground chicken and bacon meatballs are yummy.
Chicken breast fillets butterflied, with a smear of tangy tomato sauce, a bit of your favorite exotic cheese and a slice of bacon on top. Bake covered for 45 minutes.
At 5′ tall about the only thing you can hide is yourself Alexandra! :-)
My mom used to make picadillo santiaguero, a cubana recipe made with ground beef. Reason 123123 why I was a terrible child, I used to whine and say it was gross all the time, which was pretty mean because my mom’s actually a decent cook (her arroz y frijoles are great). But seriously, ground beef can never be good. Ever.
At 5? tall about the only thing you can hide is yourself Alexandra!
I actually LOL’d!
s’ok Alexandra, my girlfriend is 5’2″ so she’s not far behind you.
Jack..u didn’t hurt my feelings but thanks for apologizing. Id heard the peta joke before so i just threw it up. Anyway thanks for filling me in because i had no idea. I also remember them getting angry at model Naomi Campell after shed done the anti fur add for PETA. She was busted wearing fur and told them to kiss her grits
Reality..I make an excellent steak and one of the things I use in my rub is smoked paprika. I cook my steaks pretty rare for me but my husband wants them burnt.
Jack, I love veggies as well. I am a huge mushroom and eggplant fanatic. Unfortunately my husband won’t eat anything that isn’t meat or starch. So he only eats potatoes or pasta and he loves chicken. But sometimes I just want to make a huge veggie stir fry and stick my face in it. It annoys me that he eats so poorly. I love a variety of food.
Btw, sorry you are going through a rough time as well. :-( I wish I could help you somehow.
It’s fine it’s my own doing. I’m sorry if I upset anyone else.
I’ll try that Sydney M, thanks.
Isn’t all our misery always our own doing? I’m gonna tell everyone to lay off you as well. I don’t want anyone going through a hard time to feel bullied on here. I know I do my fair share of bullying sometimes but you know you’re my friend and I care. I don’t want you to hurt. You are genuinely cared about. I usually have thick skin but I had a rough patch a couple years ago and some folks said some snarky things on here to me and I don’t know why but it just went right through my skin and really really upset me.
I’m sending you a hug through the internet.
lol Alexandra, only the first part was directed at you! yeah…I’m a pretty terrible cook. I’ve told the Boy that he and I have to start cooking this summer so I can cook for myself ;p