Shockingly ignorant Sen. Bob Casey
Yesterday, the American Life League ran the above full-page ad in the Washington Times. View the large pdf version here.
I was glad to see ALL added Sen. Robert Casey to its list of “Pro-abortion ‘Catholics’,” because he is. Despite claiming to the contrary, Casey voted last year to overturn the Mexico City Policy, which stops US tax funds from going to international abortion groups.
But Bob Casey’s most flagrant affront to the sanctity of life was recently endorsing Barack Obama for president. CNS News covered that very topic today…
… Casey… does not think his endorsement of… Obama… translates into a pro-abortion vote in the presidential election, even though Obama supports abortion across-the-board, including late-term partial-birth abortion.
“Some might characterize it that way, but I don’t think it is” a pro-abortion vote, Casey told CNS. “I have a long (pro-life) record, and it’s a lot harder for me. It’s much easier to be a Republican and have that position.”
Casey recently endorsed Obama, despite the Democratic presidential hopeful’s support of abortion and his opposition to legislation in the Illinois state Senate that would have protected babies who survived late-term abortions…..
When asked how his support of Obama fits with his Roman Catholic faith, Casey said other issues confronting the country make the IL senator best suited for the White House.
“I think it’s possible in the next term of the president that they will directly or indirectly confront the issue of abortion, but they may not,” Casey said. “But I’m certain that they will confront the issues – what are we going to do about the war, what about a $10 trillion debt, what about health care, the recession?
Casey’s excuses seem to be he, as a Dem, had no pro-lifer to support for president. So he should have gone silent.
And he thinks a president may or may not confront abortion? I am flabbergasted a US senator doesn’t understand how much a president impacts the topic on a daily basis, as if the president only deals with abortion when asked to sign a bill.
The biggest issue for the next term, of course, will be appointing Supreme Court judges. Does Casey think Obama won’t hurt the pro-life cause there? What about funding? Cabinet appointments?
The man is not only a moral relativist but woefully ignorant.
[Photo courtesy of ABC News]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
People have been disagreeing with church policies for centuries – the only difference now is you dont get to burn them at the stake for disagreeing.
That ad is hilarious. “We truly believe that it will create a SCANDAL!!! [in our own minds because no one else really cares]”
I’ve become so disappointed at Casey. I used to really admire him back when I was a pro-life democrat, knowing that someone would stand up for life. Obviously we can’t expect liberals who happen to be pro-life to always put abortion first, but supporting Obama is just too much.
The apple has fallen far from the tree!!
For those who don’t understand why receiving Communion is such a big deal, the CCC teaches us in para 1385:
——————
“To respond to this invitation we must prepare ourselves for so great and so holy a moment. St. Paul urges us to examine our conscience: “Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.”
Anyone conscious of a grave sin must receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before coming to communion.
——————-
Abortion and SUPPORT of abortion is considered a grave sin. If these so-called “catholics” still want to receive communion, they should renounce their support (in word and deed) and go to confession first. As one t-shirt says :
“You can’t be Catholic and be Pro-Abortion”
For Catholics, the Eucharist is one of the most important beliefs of our Faith. These so called “Catholics” by opening supporting the deliberate killing of an innocent child in the womb who has committed NO CRIME, have decided they should still receive the Eucharist. There is no perfect Catholic, but I know if I am not worthy, I should not receive.
Thanks Jill for this post (and American Life League for the letter). This group is the worst of the worst. I respect atheists more than these pro-abortion Catholics.
Abortion
2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person – among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.72
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.73
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.74
2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:
You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.76
2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,”77 “by the very commission of the offense,”78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.
2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:
“The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being’s right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death.”80
“The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child’s rights.”81
2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.
”
That ad is hilarious. “We truly believe that it will create a SCANDAL!!! [in our own minds because no one else really cares]” ”
Do you know what that church means by scandal, Hieronymous? It means that their actions will potentially influence other Catholics who may be misguided and confused about church teaching, and thus they may be lead to believe that supporting abortion is a morally acceptable Catholic position which it is not. And of course, it does because we find many Catholics today confused about church teaching. I have no idea if these politicians are to blame for that or not, but it is a very serious matter when a Catholic causes a fellow Catholic to fall into error. Very serious.
Bobby,
Thank you for addressing “scandal” as defined by the Catholic Church.
Here is the text taken straight from the Catechism/USCCB:
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art5.htm
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
II. Respect for the Dignity of Persons
Respect for the souls of others: scandal
2284
Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.
2285
Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.”86 Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep’s clothing.87
2286
Scandal can be provoked by laws or institutions, by fashion or opinion.
Therefore, they are guilty of scandal who establish laws or social structures leading to the decline of morals and the corruption of religious practice, or to “social conditions that, intentionally or not, make Christian conduct and obedience to the Commandments difficult and practically impossible.”88 This is also true of business leaders who make rules encouraging fraud, teachers who provoke their children to anger,89 or manipulators of public opinion who turn it away from moral values.
2287
Anyone who uses the power at his disposal in such a way that it leads others to do wrong becomes guilty of scandal and responsible for the evil that he has directly or indirectly encouraged. “Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come!”90
“Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others”
——————————–
…hmmm…I wonder, did these so called ‘catholic’ politicians even read the Catechism?
Oh ALL, you so crazy. So sorry, but the Pope is not the King of America. Elected officials are hired to represent their constituents, not their religion. If you want to live under the Pope’s rule, move to Vatican City and leave the rest of us out of it.
ahhh..reality, there’s the rub.
What is the PRIORITY in these politicians lives?
To follow Christ and serve their constituents or vice versa?
IMO the Pope is a complete loser and failure as a Catholic. Instead of helping the Nazis (even if it was a desk job) he should have stood against them. He should have given his life if it came to that.
Sorry Bobby, didn’t realize that scandal was a term of art in a church discussion. I was applying the popular meaning.
Look at this man if he’s not evil I don’t know what is! And he had no problem supporting the MURDER of MILLIONS of Jewish babies, toddlers, school children, teenagers, adults and elderly. Why would he care if other white Christians decide to go out and kill anyone? You’re completely delusional if you think this man gives a damn about life.
Our last Pope stood up against madmen like this. I will too.
I cried when he became Pope. I pray he’ll die soon and his reign of terror will end.
Excellent work Janet. It can often be confusing for non-Catholics (and even Catholics) because sometimes we mean different things or have different conotations for certain words.
See, this is why we should do everything in latin. The language never changes so we don’t run into these kinds of problems. Of course, if we started speaking it, it would begin to change…
Jess, what are you talking about?
IMO the Pope is a complete loser and failure as a Catholic. Instead of helping the Nazis (even if it was a desk job) he should have stood against them. He should have given his life if it came to that.
Posted by: Jess at April 16, 2008 12:40 PM
Look at this man if he’s not evil I don’t know what is! And he had no problem supporting the MURDER of MILLIONS of Jewish babies, toddlers, school children, teenagers, adults and elderly. Why would he care if other white Christians decide to go out and kill anyone? You’re completely delusional if you think this man gives a damn about life.
Our last Pope stood up against madmen like this. I will too.
Jess, Even as an ex-Catholic, how can you speak like this? Please do some real reading instead of listening to the mainstream media before you make such accusatory statement about our beloved Pope Benedict.
Please listen to what he has to say this week in the U.S., and do not rely more on the MSM for the truth. God bless you.
He was a member of the Hitler Youth and a member of the German anti-aircraft unit during WWII. He then deserted after the Americans marched into Germany claiming he only did it because it was legally required. Well abortion is legal so I guess we all should have one!
Yeah, Jess…are you a racist? Just because he was German (and a former member of the Hitler Youth-all of them were, anyway) doesn’t mean he was a NAZI.
No Janet he was a Nazi he supported the Nazis he supported death and destruction and eugenics and he is evil.
Yeah what he has to say this week he only says what will benefit him. If someone put a gun to his head and said “Say you hate God and Jesus and they’re wrong.” He would say “yes I hate God and I hate Jesus so much.”
Can’t you see he’s completely self-serving? Why would God want us to listen to this monster?
Bobby,
I love the Latin Tridentine Mass. Have you been to one? Do you know any Latin? My nephews are studying it high school and I’m slowly learning enough to follow the mass! For anyone who hasn’t been to one, go! There is a prayerfullness that is so powerful. Hint: sit in the front pews so you can see what is happening!
“(and a former member of the Hitler Youth-all of them were, anyway)”
So if there was a law in America requiring you to be pro-choice and have at least one abortion would you? Would you stand by and support it? He’s making a mockery of all the German’s who stood against Hitler and gave their lives to help others. By supporting him you’re making a mockery of all those who gave their lives in WWII for life.
All my friends don’t give a damn about pro-life should I??? If I became pregnant and they said to abort should I? That’s exactly what you’re saying.
Jess,
I won’t even repeat what you have posted because it is a disgrace.
As I have mentioned, READ SOME RELIABLE SOURCES BEFORE MAKING JUDGEMENT ON POPE BENEDICT XVI.
This is my last response to you today.
So why are women supposed to put their lives on the line to save a stupid fetus when this guy couldn’t be bothered to try and do ANYTHING for MILLIONS!?
What reliable sources??? Can’t you see who this man is? So it’s horrible to just get rid of a few stupid little cells but it’s peachy keen to kill millions of walking talking feeling breathing human beings? Is it because you’re under the wrong impression that Jews killed Jesus? Is it ok to abort a baby if it’s a Jew?
It must just be because Catholics pro-lifers just hate women. They obviously don’t give a crap about life.
If Tiller decides he want’s to be pro-life will you care if he’s elected Pope? This guy did whatever he had to do to make his life as comfortable for himself as possible.
Jess,
OK, One more comment:
I’m only saying this because I care about you. You are obviously really stressed out about this. Why don’t you find a Catholic Church, or even better, a Eucharist Adoration Chapel, and pray that God will show you the answers to your questions. Listen carefully and prayerfully. God bless you.
http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/bergenbelsenmassgrave.jpg
How can any of you support a man who supports this???
No Janet I know this man is evil. Do you know what the Holocaust was? This man is making a mockery out of all the people who gave their lives for the hope of helping others. He made their deaths worthless, meaningless and he helped support pure evil.
Jess…is it that time of the month for you?
I’m only telling you thins because I don’t want another holocaust. I don’t want it to be ok to kill people based on their ethnicity, race, culture religion, disabilities anything. Don’t support this evil!
RSD you’re horrible. You made my point about pro-lifers hating women. I’m sorry I don’t just ignore mass genocide when it suits me. Like I said, if there was a law requiring all Americans to be pro-choice would you support abortion???
And the only reason you slung a personal insult at me is because you can’t defend this man’s evil actions.
So I should totally go out and get a few abortions because it’s legal and therefore ok?
What would Jesus do? Give up his life to save others, or crawl around helping evil men do evil things to hurt innocent people so he could go on living his disgraceful life?
“I love the Latin Tridentine Mass. Have you been to one? Do you know any Latin? My nephews are studying it high school and I’m slowly learning enough to follow the mass! For anyone who hasn’t been to one, go! There is a prayerfullness that is so powerful. Hint: sit in the front pews so you can see what is happening!”
Yeah, me too Janet! I’ve been to a handful. With the universal indult given last year, there is a tridintine mass being offered about 45 minutes from my house, but I haven’t been able to get to it much since the baby. I love how biblical it, and of course, how reverent it is as well. The one thing I will say about the novus ordo is that I like how there are more readings than the tridintine.
If you believe what you’re doing is right, stand up and shout it out. If you believe what your doing is wrong then stop!
Why aren’t you commenting Bobby? If you know what he did was wrong then say it, tell the world Catholics don’t accept murderous cowards, honor the real heros who gave their lives to save others during the Holocaust!
Obviously the RCC isnt bothered by his youthful connections with the Nazis … but then the RCC never said a thing when Hitler was committing those atrocities, nor did they condemn Hitlers henchman, Mussolini, and the RCC helped Nazi war criminals escape Europe and flee to South and Central America. Given that history how can you expect them to be critical of the current pope?
Why doesn’t anyone care he helped kill people!? Put yourself in the position of a Jew in a concentration camp, wouldn’t you want help!? Why are you all so hypocritical?!
Jess,
Take a deep breath. You sound unhinged. On the one hand you fight vehemently for the right of women to kill their children by the millions and on the other you condemn a 14 year old for doing exactly what you are doing.
You really have no idea what you’re talking about.
I honestly don’t even know where to begin to address your comments, as they are all false and all over the place.
Perhaps I should just ask you? When you were 14, if our government told you that you either had to join the “kill the hamsters group” or else you and your family would be publicly hanged, what do you think you would do? If anybody ever judges ME by the things I did when I was 14, (and they weren’t even under coercion), I’d shoot myself now and get it over with.
What’s important is who the man is now. Jews don’t have a problem with him, why do you?
What would I do now, if I was “forced” to have an abortion? I don’t honestly know. If my childrens lives were threatened for noncompliance, I honestly don’t know. If my own life was, I think I’d rather die. But I’m not 14.
What happened to your “Judge not lest ye be judged” battle cry?
Everyone’s silence says it all.
:-P Considering the general position that the RCC took during the Holocaust, Jess, are you really that surprised?
I miss John Paul II.
OK. First of all, everyone had to be a member of the Hitler youth. No one had any option. Second, there is no reason to believe that he even knew what was going on as far as Hitler’s ideology. Today is his 81st birthday so that would make him, what, 13 years old in 1940? At worst, at the very worst, he was a Nazi and loved killing Jews at the ages of 13-16. St. Paul was a murder. Moses was a murderer. And they commited these crimes out of their own free will when they were much older and much more aware of the severity of their actions. So even if he did support such atrocities, he was a teenager and has repented. Of course, there are no such statements from him about being a Nazi or hating Jews or condoning the killing of the innocent. He is not a murderous coward, he has done nothing of the sort. I don’t know where you’re getting all this, Jess. I would need to see one statement that said that he supported the Nazis or murder or anything like that.
The Pope holds the highest authority in the Catholic Church. He was elected by a council of Cardinals with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
You call him an “evil, hateful monster”…
For that alone, I should slap you for your blasphemous tongue. You dare say “OUR” Pope to John Paul, the Great, yet you dishonor his memory with this tirade against his wonderful successor.
YOU (and your pro-abort cohorts) can call me anything you want but you will NOT dishonor the
Pope.
*and TR- do more research into what the Pope did for the thousands of hiding Jews during WWII before you even type…
Yes I would rather die then join the “kill the hamsters” group. Are you comparing hamsters to Jews now? Besides what makes our lives so important others have to die for our comfort. And there were many others who never joined the Hitler Youth. Some were sent to work camps, other were not. Besides the Nazis killed his disabled cousin, obviously he didn’t care about his family. And as for who he is now? A liar? He just does what he has to do to make himself happy without considering the needs of others. Not very Christian at all.
And even if I am pro-choice and I truly believe it nothing would silence me because I fight for what I feel is right, and only what I feel is right.
Jess: “I’m only telling you thins because I don’t want another holocaust. I don’t want it to be ok to kill people based on their ethnicity, race, culture religion, disabilities anything. Don’t support this evil!”
Jess, a very good place to start is by standing up for life in the womb, those with disabilities (also killed in the womb because they’ve been “found out”), the elderly, etc., the most vulnerable.
If you are for real, you obvisouly care about the human person. How can you support abortion?
I don’t know what you’re talking about saying that the Pope supported the Holocaust. You’re opinion of him is really warped.
Did you know the Pope had a cousin with Down syndrome who was taken from his home and “died” in an institution? Don’t you think he understands the kind of evil you’re accusing him of?
“What happened to your “Judge not lest ye be judged” battle cry?”
So stop calling Tiller a killer.
“Did you know the Pope had a cousin with Down syndrome who was taken from his home and “died” in an institution? Don’t you think he understands the kind of evil you’re accusing him of?”
And what did he do? Sided with his cousins murderers.
Jess,
We’re not being “silent” because we have nothing to say, we are being silent because you sound irrational and your accusations are so far out there, that no one knows what to say.
That war went on for years and NO ONE lifted a finger. There was a ship filled with refugees, folks that managed to escape, and not one country would give them harbor.
The whole world was culpable Jess. We are all guilty. Yes, some true heroes arose during that time, but heroes are hard to come by. Most people were totally freaked out and just trying to stay alive. Why aren’t you out pickin’ worms off of dying Hindus? Because Mother Teresas are rare. Because that kind of above and beyond behavior is EXTRArodinary, and most people are just ordinary.
I wish our pope would have stood up. I wish EVERYONE would have stood up. Just as I wish everyone would stand up against abortion now.
In 50 years when abortion is outlawed, people will be saying, “Oh that Jess, she is so evil. She stood by while millions of infants were slaughtered. I even have proof. She posted on Jill Staneks blog and said that these babies were just blobs of cells. How dare she now try to pawn her self off as a decent person! Wake up world, Jess is a disgusting human being!”
And I’ll defend you just as I am now defending our Pope. He is NOT evil Jess. He’s just a man, that made some mistakes a long, long time ago. No different than Carla when she chose abortion, or me when I chose drugs…
All anybody can do is admit when they were wrong and move one…which is exactly what our Pope has done. You are the one stuck in the past…move on.
RSD- The Pope and the Church did nothing. They had an open policy of neutrality towards the entire war. They didn’t help ANYONE.
Thank you mk: I’m still speechless. This must be why Jess left the Church.
“No one had any option.”
That’s a poor excuse. So many people did not join the Hitler Youth. Read my earlier posts. And like I said, would you rather support evil or stand up to it even if it meant you would be killed.
RSD threatened to hit me. So Christian and pro-life, threatening others with violence. No wonder you have no problem supporting this hypocrite who helped an evil tyrant who killed millions.
And the next time any of you talk about how “oh pro-lifers are so nice and non-violent” remember what RSD said to me. I’m sure most of you “pro-lifers” would loved to burn me to death or shot me or gas me or whatever right now. Just remember, God knows what you’re thinking.
“We’re not being “silent” because we have nothing to say, we are being silent because you sound irrational and your accusations are so far out there, that no one knows what to say.”
Jess, you know I love you, but this is exactly what I was thinking…
> Jess: “And what did he do? Sided with his cousins murderers.”
Jess, do you have any proof that shows that young Joseph Ratzinger even know what the Hitler Youth was about? I don’t know the history very well, but did the people really have full knowledge of what was going on? Hind sight is 20-20.
All I know is this man does not support, and never did, the atrocities you are accusing him of.
How can you say NO ONE did anything? So many people gave their lives to stop the Holocaust and end WWII! What about all the Catholics who choose to stand by their Jewish friends or tried to hide them and were sent to the gas chambers for it? Even if ONE person stands up for what is right it is far better then no one at all.
mk this was right in his own family they killed his cousin! And even if abortion was made illegal I would still speak up for a woman’s right to choose because if you feel what you have to say is right you stand up and you say it.
Jess,
“What happened to your “Judge not lest ye be judged” battle cry?”
*
So stop calling Tiller a killer.”
Uh-Uh! That’s your battle cry, not mine. Tiller is a killer. period.
Ellie his father was completely against the Nazis. His father was very anti-Nazi he never did anything to help them but spoke out against them. The Pope said he didn’t like the Hitler Youth because the Nazis killed his cousin but he did it because it was what everyone else was doing and he didn’t want to risk being sent away from his nice cozy life to a work camp.
mk, I have to say the Pope is evil for what he did. Evil is when good men stand by and do nothing. That’s my battle cry.
Erin,
Check this out (and with proper sources too!):
http://www.catholic.com/library/HOW_Pius_XII_PROTECTED_JEWS.asp
“All I know is this man does not support, and never did, the atrocities you are accusing him of.”
And how many Nazi war criminals claimed they never did what they did either?
And how come you guys just let RSD threaten me? You really don’t care about anyone else but fetuses and then once their born you say, think exactly as I do or we’ll hurt you.
OK, SETTLE DOWN!!!!!!
You all have know the Pope was coming for at least months, so if you really cared, you’ve had plenty of time “to study up” on the man. Why are you so ignorantly commenting on things you haven’t a clue about?? If this were about, say, the Cluster 2003 IEEE International Conference on Cluster Computing(just pulled it off a web page, I haven’t a clue), would you be in the thick of the discussion, telling the attendees how you didn’t think it was a good idea?
This an extremely joyous week for Catholics. The Pope’s theme is Christ is our Hope.. He wants to look to the future. As mk said, let’s not get stuck in the past, let’s move on.
“Yet today Pius XII gets almost no credit for his actions before or during the war. ”
Well mk said, “That war went on for years and NO ONE lifted a finger.” So obviously she thinks that story is fake.
“…God knows what you’re thinking…”
——————————
Well, Jess…God knows what YOU said (and are saying) about His disciple.
Jess,
The point is that you are standing up for what you believe is right, but you’re wrong. Some day you’ll understand this. And when you do, I will not throw the past in your face and say you haven’t really changed your mind any more than I would throw Carlas past in her face.
Again Jess, yes, people did stand up, but not as many as you think. What exactly did your grandmother do? Or your grandfather? Did they die trying to get didn’t.
You can’t even see the holocaust that is happening right in front of you. How can you possibly be accusing someone else of doing the same thing.
By your own definition, if Pope Benedict believed at the time that what he was doing was “right” then he should have done it. So let’s pretend that he believed in what he was doing, just like you do, but we know he was wrong, just like we know you are wrong…who’s worse? A kid who went along with the guys with the guns, hating every minute of it? Or you, who actively, vocally, supports the murder of little kids?
I can understand what drove Karl to join the Hitler Youth…the threat of death.
I cannot understand what drives you to kill infants. That is the real mystery.
Who is worse?
The pope ‘secretly’ worked to save people? Gee…you’d think an institution with the spread and grasp of the RCC could at least say that they didn’t approve. Which, uh…Pope Pius XII didn’t do until a month after the end of the war.
Janet I had no idea he was coming. I’m sorry I’m trying to stand up millions of people who died for what they believed in, I guess since I’m pro-choice I might as well just go around killing everything and everyone right?
And how come you guys just let RSD threaten me? You really don’t care about anyone else but fetuses and then once their born you say, think exactly as I do or we’ll hurt you.
Posted by: Jess at April 16, 2008 1:56 PM
When did RSD threaten you????? Please refresh my memory.
Gotta run to do errands. Ciao!
Good idea, Janet! Let’s not look at how atrociously our church and this man have messed up in the past! Lets just blindly follow him now!
RSD, at least I’m not threatening to go around hitting people. And you’re probably thinking way worse. If I was only a fetus… then i guess I would be worth your time.
Janet he said he would slap me.
Note, Jess, that these HEROES belonged to the Hitler Youth also…
The most important case is that of the Scholl siblings (Hans and Sophie, core of the White Rose resistance group), who had become estranged from their Hitler Youth beginnings and as university students and soldiers at the front (1942/43) decided to oppose Hitler actively. They posted massive anti-Hitler slogans in Munich and surroundings and were caught and beheaded. There were about ten of them, all told. Most had been active HJ members before, some even as leaders, Sophie and Hans in particular.
What matters is that the pope denounces this NOW. Too late for you, I see, but not too late for those of us who understand how horrible that time was and that many, many people made decisions that they regret now…regret, being the key word.
Here ‘ya go, Jess.
Check out the pics, especially those on the last half of the page:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm
…And a notable quote:
“The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and cooperation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life.”
Adolph Hitler, My New World Order,
Proclamation to the German Nation
at Berlin, February 1, 1933
“I can understand what drove Karl to join the Hitler Youth…the threat of death.
I cannot understand what drives you to kill infants. That is the real mystery.”
So Jesus shouldn’t have died on the cross? Were Christian Martyrs just stupid?
Abortion isn’t about killing babies, it is ending pregnancies. If their was a way to remove the fetus alive and well without the mother going through pregnancy you bet I would stop supporting the current methods.
“What matters is that the pope denounces this NOW.”
Denounces it when it is convenient for HIM.
Jess,
I said “I would slap you for your BLASPHEMOUS toungue”…read that again, pls.
If you say you are standing up for all those millions that got killed…I was standing up for the Pope…
I wasn’t threatening anyone with violence.
You were blaspheming against the descendant of Peter.
Perhaps I should post a list of “pro-abortion” Republicans that you antis are welcome to campaign against. Locally, Mark Kirk (otherwise a Bush crony) would be at the top of that list. He is even endorsed by PP’s political arm! Feel free to contribute to his Democratic opponent, Dan Seals.
What is so silly about the comments regarding the Pope joining the Hitler Youth is that his parents (by law) had to sign him up at the age of 12. Yes, that’s 1-2, twelve. He left his post in opposition at 17 or 18. But, you bet; he should have kicked those Nazi’s in the knees and told them to shove it!
Come on! When he was old enough to realize the impact, he left. But keep up with the witch hunt.
Jess, really, you should relax. The Hitler Youth was something forced on all the German children during the holocaust/WWII. As a child, would you really be able to stand up against all those adults? I mean, take a deep breath, and try to be rational here. You’re saying that you’re praying for the day he dies…how loving is THAT? That’s not much better either.
Posted by: Ray at April 16, 2008 2:15 PM
If Dan Seals is pro-life I’m in.
It’s a well known fact that the Vatican hid thousands of Jews in Rome AND that Pope Pius XII was very concerned about speaking out a second time against the atrocities commited on the Jews because of the retribution that the German’s took out on Dutch Jews the first time he spoke on their behalf.
THE MSM will NEVER let this story die because a RC Pope is the most feared and hated man in the world. THey know he is the one force that goes against their agenda to redesign society and the family.
mk, I have to say the Pope is evil for what he did. Evil is when good men stand by and do nothing. That’s my battle cry.
Sweetie,
You just described yourself. Can’t you see that?
You’re a good person that is standing by and doing nothing…worse, you’re abetting…the slaughter of 46 million children…
By your own definition, YOU are evil.
And RSD did NOT say he was going to hit you. He said he should. As in he should put you over his knee and ground you. You are being hugely disrespectful.
If I didn’t know better, I’d say you forgot to take your meds today. You really are making no sense. I feel like I’m arguing with a petulant 7 year old.
I love you Jess. Usually, you’re respectful and sweet and kind, but right now…well…
Indeed Particia. See, for example, “Hitler the War and The Pope” by Ronald J. Rychlak and “The Myth of Hitler’s Pope” by Rabbi David Dalin. Both are very well researched, scholarly works.
MK, 2:20 p.m.
I have to agree with you there.
I love you Jess!
MK,
Thank you…
I grew up with the belief that no matter who awful the world gets the Catholic Church will always be a shining beacon of love and kindness. Now there are just so many problems with it. Pedophile priests, an ex-Nazi Pope (he said he knew they were wrong and killed his cousin and other innocent people but he didn’t want to go to a work camp) and so many of their beliefs conflict with mine. I want to be Catholic but I’m just so fed up. I can’t for the life of me see the Church as holy anymore and that kills me.
Yeah what he has to say this week he only says what will benefit him. If someone put a gun to his head and said “Say you hate God and Jesus and they’re wrong.” He would say “yes I hate God and I hate Jesus so much.”
And you would know that HOW Jess? It’s statements like these that are making you look a little bit, oh I don’t know, irrational to put it nicely.
Jess, the church used to be much, much worse. I mean, look at the time of the reformation. We had Pope Alexander VI; HORRIBLE S.O.B! Tons of corruption. There were two options then, just like there are now. 1) reform the church from the inside, as St Francis DeSales did or 2) split away from the church as Martin Luther did. Schism is never the answer.
Abortion isn’t about killing babies, it is ending pregnancies. If their was a way to remove the fetus alive and well without the mother going through pregnancy you bet I would stop supporting the current methods.
Good Heavens Jess, there are so many inconsistencies in that statement that I don’t know where to begin.
What exactly IS a pregnancy? How are you “ending” it? What is the result of ending this pregnancy? Why would you want an alternative. Either you believe that a little living person is growing in a womans womb and you don’t want to see it die, so it wouldn’t matter if there was an alternative, or you think it is simply a blob of tissue and it would make no sense to stand up for alternative methods of ending the pregnancy…
what is wrong with you today? Honestly? Is something up? You’re kind of scaring me…
he said he knew they were wrong and killed his cousin and other innocent people but he didn’t want to go to a work camp
Oh, you mean, he didn’t want to get sent to a work camp and die?? Gee, that selfish pope..I can’t believe he wouldn’t opt to go to one of those work camps, just so people like YOU, Jess, will approve of him.
A priest told me this once….”The Church is like a broom. It gets dirty, it gets broken, it gets used up…but it is still useful for cleaning.”
The Teachings of the Church are the only sane things in this world…the people may stray and the priests and bishops may stray from it BUT the Teachings remain true.
I love Pope Benedict. He’s a very good, loving man. ..and he’s not afraid to say what has to be said. many American Catholics have to start following the teachings of their faith and live by it.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/former_hitler_youth_elected_pope.htm
“He was sent to Hungary, where he set up tank traps and saw Jews being herded to death camps.”
“Some locals in Traunstein, like Elizabeth Lohner, 84, whose brother-in-law was sent to Dachau as a conscientious objector, dismiss such suggestions.
THe Church will always have problems Jess, after all it is made up of human beings who are struggling under the weight of original sin.
That doesn’t mean the CC can’t be or isn’t holy. Look at all the Catholics who use BC and support abortion and yet for all those, there are many many who silently live very holy lives, and lives of heroic sacrifice.
A family of eight, expecting their ninth, another who struggle through a pregnancy only to give birth to a baby that might not survive but a few days. The priest who gives a homily on what marriage really is. The new orders of young nuns springing up everywhere.
These people are the real church.
If as you say “so many of the beliefs conflict with mine” then you are have a crisis of faith. You must ask yourself, why this is so? Then I would suggest that you seriously read authentic Catholic material on those areas of the CC that you disagree with. For example, if you don’t agree on contraception, prayerfully read Humanae Vitae (it’s very readable, I assure you!) and read one of Janet Smith’s books.
You can’t dissent from something you don’t understand. Well, you can, but it’s not logical and then you can’t defend your position.
“Jess, the church used to be much, much worse. I mean, look at the time of the reformation. We had Pope Alexander VI; HORRIBLE S.O.B! Tons of corruption.”
Then why are we following it? The Church is responsible for guiding our immortal souls!
I have a headache. I’m going to take a nap.
Wow, Jess, you’re all about choice and bodily autonomy..sounds like this guy was doing what he had to do to protect his.
And you fault him for it…ohh the irony.
He shouldn’t be Pope Elizabeth. Catholicism and bodily autonomy don’t mix.
Well, you aren’t qualified to make that decision Jess.
Catholicism and bodily autonomy don’t mix.
Jess,
I grew up with the belief that no matter who awful the world gets the Catholic Church will always be a shining beacon of love and kindness. Now there are just so many problems with it. Pedophile priests, an ex-Nazi Pope (he said he knew they were wrong and killed his cousin and other innocent people but he didn’t want to go to a work camp) and so many of their beliefs conflict with mine. I want to be Catholic but I’m just so fed up. I can’t for the life of me see the Church as holy anymore and that kills me.
Now you’re starting to make some sense…okay, so you’re heart is broken because the institution that you once held so dear, appears to be letting you down.
But you see, this is how the conversation started, remember? Us being upset by Nancy Pelosi kissing the popes ring?
We too are upset by the evil that has infiltrated our beloved church. Jesus is horrified also. But it isn’t the “church”, it’s the foolish people IN the church. People like Nancy Pelosi, or the bishops in Sanfrancisco…
Did you know that a former pope had a vision of a conversation between God and Satan. Satan said he believed that he could take the world and all of it’s souls away from God, and God said he had a hundred years to try. That hundred years was the hundred we are in right now. That’s why we have the prayer to Michael the Archangel. The pope coined it to protect the church. He said that in his vision he was led to believe that “smoke (meaning evil)would enter the very church herself.
Think about it babe, if satan wanted to bring souls to hell, he’d need to attack the church. and that means attacking the clergy and the Eucharist.
The same way he is attacking “life”, families and youth.
If you’re not following Jesus, then you are following satan. There are no other choices, but know this, we are all followers. The idea that we are independent thinkers is a lie. We ALL follow someone. Priests are just as susceptible, if not more, to satans lies than anyone else.
It’s your job to discern where he is leading YOU astray and correct it.
You say the church has all sorts of teachings that are contrary to yours…then maybe you need to look at your beliefs, and not the churches. Do you really think that you are right and that the church should listen to you??? Or that maybe you are wrong, and need to relook at what the church teaches in a whole new way.
Do not look to men Jess, they will let you down. Look to Jesus, the catechism, the teachings, not the individuals. If you find an individual that is living the teachings, then and only then, can you feel safe in following the “person”…
This pope is strong. He used to be rather liberal, but came to his senses and changed. He admits it. Even he was pulled into the lies of the devil. But he recognized his errors, just like Paul. He stands against the secular world and against the atrocities that are happening in the church…the very things that upset you!
Wouldn’t want his job for anything. It takes a humble man to admit when he was wrong. And to change. And to apologize.
Look how hard it is for you…you’re being asked to change and you hate it.
I can’t for the life of me see the Church as holy anymore and that kills me.
Posted by: Jess at April 16, 2008 2:28 PM
You’re looking in the wrong place.
Jess, really go lay down..you’re starting to sound a little unhinged.
You really think all the people that decided he should be pope are immoral and didn’t care about the Holocaust?
Jess,
think about this…every person in that concentration camp was there because they were afraid to die. Every day they lived there and didn’t stand up for the others, get shot themselves and prove to you that were heroes, they were aiding and abetting the massacres…or were they?
MK,
You are so right! I love you!
I can’t for the life of me see the Church as holy anymore and that kills me.
Posted by: Jess at April 16, 2008 2:28 PM
You’re looking in the wrong place.
Posted by: Kristen at April 16, 2008 2:47 PM
————————————-
Maybe an hour (or more) in the Adoration Chapel would do the trick…
Catholicism and bodily autonomy don’t mix.
Posted by: Jess at April 16, 2008 2:45 PM
Whatever does this mean?
You mean that Catholicism and having the right to do with your body whatever you want don’t mix?
Your body is the temple of your soul or spirit, made in the image of God. Just because it’s your body doesn’t mean you can do what you want to it or with it. And as for abortion, well there’s another body there – you know that – the body of an unborn baby.
The CC’s teachings on sexuality are in fact liberating, not restricting. By saving sex for marriage, as an example, women are protected from STD’s, unwed pregnancy, abortion and marrying a man they otherwise would not consider.
Elizabeth,
I love you too.
Looks like Jess went to take a nap. Sounded like she needed it. Poor kid.
Posted by: RSD at April 16, 2008 2:55 PM
I think it would certainly help! (That goes for all of us) :)
Okay,
Now for Laura!
You asked us to look closely at those pictures…well…it seems to me that they were all taken before it was understood who and what Hitler was. In the beginning he sounded like the greatest thing since sliced bread. And he was all over the Catholic Church…
I don’t see any pictures from, say, 1941 with Catholic priests giving the Hitler Salute…!
Actually, he sounded a lot like a certain politician sounds today…all full of piss and vinegar…out to CHANGE the world for the better…maybe we should look more closely at our own emerging leaders. Someday, there might be pictures of very good people, backing a certain someone, because they didn’t realize how dangerous he was…
Let’s go watch the TV coverage of the Pope’s visit!
MK: Awesome posts! Thank you.
“Actually, he sounded a lot like a certain politician sounds today…all full of piss and vinegar…out to CHANGE the world for the better…maybe we should look more closely at our own emerging leaders. Someday, there might be pictures of very good people, backing a certain someone, because they didn’t realize how dangerous he was…”
MK, my grandpa-in-law was a member of the 10th Mountain Division in WWII and saw the whole thing unfold before his very eyes, with Hitler’s rise to power and all. The other day, he was telling my wife and I about how he sees so many similarities between Hitler and you-know-who; how they are both phenomenal speakers, able to draw in the crowd etc. It seems far fetched, but it was kinda scary to hear a WWII vet talk about all the similarities between the two people…
We must remember that the Holocaust was also anti-Christian. After Hitler revealed his true intentions, the Catholic Church opposed him. Even the famous Albert Einstein testified to that. According to the December 23, 1940 issue of Time magazine on page 38, Einstein said:
Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks…
Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly.
Pope Pius XII was a diplomat and not a radical preacher. He knew that he first needed to preserve Vatican neutrality so that Vatican City could be a refuge for war victims. The International Red Cross also remained neutral. Secondly, he knew how powerless he was against Hitler. Mussolini could quickly shut off electrical power to Vatican Radio during his broadcast (Lapide, p. 256). Finally the Nazis did not tolerate any protest and responded severely. As an example, the Catholic Archbishop of Utrecht in July 1942 protested in a pastoral letter against the Jewish persecutions in Holland. Immediately the Nazis rounded up as many Jews and Catholic non-Aryans as possible and deported them to death camps, including Blessed Edith Stein (Lapide, p. 246). Pius knew that every time he spoke out against Hitler, the Nazis could retaliate against the prisoners. His best attack against the Nazis was quiet diplomacy and behind-the-scenes action. According to The 1996 Grolier Multimedia Encyclopedia (V8.01) under Pius XII, “Wishing to preserve Vatican neutrality, fearing reprisals, and realizing his impotence to stop the Holocaust, Pius nonetheless acted on an individual basis to save many Jews and others with church ransoms, documents, and asylum.”
But Pope Pius XII was not completely silent either, especially in his Christmas messages. His 1941 and 1942 Christmas messages were both translated and published in The New York Times (Dec. 25, 1941, p. 20 & Dec. 25, 1942, p. 10). To prevent retaliation, he did not refer to Nazism by name, but people of that era still understood him, including the Nazis. According to The New York Times editorial on December 25, 1941 (Late Day edition, p. 24):
The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas… he is about the only ruler left on the Continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all… the Pope put himself squarely against Hitlerism… he left no doubt that the Nazi aims are also irreconcilable with his own conception of a Christian peace.
Also The New York Times editorial on December 25, 1942 (Late Day edition, p. 16) states:
This Christmas more than ever he is a lonely voice crying out of the silence of a continent… Pope Pius expresses as passionately as any leader on our side the war aims of the struggle for freedom when he says that those who aim at building a new world must fight for free choice of government and religious order. They must refuse that the state should make of individuals a herd of whom the state disposes as if they were lifeless things.
Both editorials recognize and highly praise Pius’ words against Hitler and totalitarianism.
Erin:201: Good idea, Janet! Let’s not look at how atrociously our church and this man have messed up in the past! Lets just blindly follow him now!
Erin, Read mk’s post carefully. The core teaching of the historical Church does not change. God does not change, he is the same forever and ever. It is man who is sinful (us, all of us) and for this reason Jesus gave us this prayer to pray:
Our Father, who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy Name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours
now and for ever. Amen.
God is a merciful God, and he asks us to have mercy on others.
At some point we must forgive. This is not easy, but it must be done, or hatred will eat us alive. God bless you, Erin.
That’s right MK. When you look into history, as opposed to crap like the work of John Cornwell, you see that the Church was firmly against the NAZI agenda.
Now there were traitors in the Church who were Nazis or helped Hitler. There were Catholics who committed sins of bigotry. There were also Catholics, who, out of fear or indifference, sinned through silence. The Church is full of sinners for whom Christ died. We killed Jesus with our sins (Is. 53: 5-6). But Pope Pius XII and many Catholics did not remain “silent.” Could 860,000 Jewish lives be saved by “silent” indifference? In our own day, there are people who claim to be Catholic but promote and participate in abortion, assisted-suicide and artificial birth control. In the next century, will the world also falsely accuse the Church and the Pope for being silent during the “culture of death” holocaust?
http://users.binary.net/polycarp/piusxii.html
Thankfully there are some people out in this country who realize we have bigger issues to face than that of abortion. Thank you for saying so, Robert Casey.
And Jess, I’m sorry you feel so distressed. I wasn’t raised Catholic, but when I took a European history class, I learned a lot about the way religion really was spread and what it really did … the whole thing made me want to vomit, so I think I can get where you’re coming from.
“Sorry Bobby, didn’t realize that scandal was a term of art in a church discussion. I was applying the popular meaning.”
Quite alright, Hieronymous. It’s tricky. That’s why I wanted to make sure that you knew what we meant by it.
Like I said above, this is why we need to communicate in LATIN!
Jess, I want you to know that I can hear the sadness in your posts, and I just want to tell you what I think…
It sounds like you have put your trust in people during your life, and not in God. And those people have let you down, which people will always do.
Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.Psalm 146:3
(“Let God be true, and every man a liar.” Rom. 3:4. “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? ” Jer. 17:9)
Please do not ever put a person on a pedastool because they will always let you down. I have made the same mistake before and it devastated me, as I can hear it has done to you.
Human beings are sinful, beyond comprehension. You won’t be able to find a single one who is without sin.
The only one that we can possibly ever trust to never let us down is God. Trust Jesus, who died on the cross for you, and let Him lead you to all truth. Please, take time to read the Bible and ask God to show you His will, His goodness, His love, His mercy, His compassion, His tenderness. It knows no end.
That’s all I’m going to say in this thread. I don’t want to get sucked into this debate. I just saw some very sad posts from Jess and she seems to be crying for help…maybe it’s just my imagination, but I felt compelled to say something. We love you, Jess. All of us.
Thanks Janet.
I hear so often that Catholics have left the faith due to the behavior of fellow catholics, be they laymen or clergy. This is what was meant by “scandal” in an earlier post.
People are watching. Just as I take my job as moderator here on Jill’s very seriously, I also take being a Catholic seriously. I have a responsibility, to Jill, her readers, to my fellow Catholics, to my kids, to you…
Amen, Bethany.
Edyt,
Did you hear the history of the US in those classes too? Did that make you want to vomit? How about the history of planned parenthood? You seem to have gotten over the horror of Margaret Sanger pretty well…
Oh wow, Jess, you have NO clue, do you? Joseph Ratinzger, AKA Pope Benedict XVI, was forced into the Hitler Youth movement.
And you know what else? I don’t hate women. My heart BREAKS when I see those young girls going into the local abortion mill. They are crying out for help! They think this is their only ‘CHOICE’. Some may be victims of FORCED abortions (where the man threatens to leave them if they don’t abort) or they might be the victim of abuse.
The prolifers I know love the MOTHER and their BABY.
I donate baby items to crisis pregnancy centers. My donation to my local right to life group not only helps education about abortion, but some of it also goes to help young mothers in need – for rent, utilities, etc.
I HATE Abortion. That’s what I hate.
MK, don’t be dumb. It was a EUROPEAN HISTORY class.
Although, yes, I did learn an awful lot about how people came to America because of the ridiculous religious beliefs and persecution in Europe. So silly that we have the same thing here, don’t you think?
MK, I didn’t know Einstein said those things about the Church. Wow! Amazing the lies that are picked up and perpetuated against the Church.
Yeah, Edyt, it is pretty silly how Catholics are persecuted here. I agree.
Elizabth –
AMEN!
Elizabeth, learn to read.
Hehe I already can..I just enjoy being a smartass in my spare time. It really comes in handy around here. You should already know thattttt.
Gosh Edyt. Testy, testy aren’t we?
Willfully ignorant =/= smartass. You should already know that.
Yes we are! Tsk, tsk.
Lol Ohhhh poor Edyt…can’t handle the sarcasm.
Oh, let’s be patronizing instead of actually hold a conversation. It’s the pro-life way! No real arguments, just emotion and judging.
Edyt: Millions of Irish Catholics died during the Irish Potato Famine and their English Protestant overlords did practically zilch to help them. Referred to the starving Irish Catholics in very cruel terms. Many Irish Catholics left Ireland to escape the situation there, including members of my family. Didn’t exactly find religious tolerance in the good ole’ US though. Ever heard of the N.I.N.A signs? No Irish Need Apply? Yeah, religious intolerance is a bad thing.
And if we don’t get picked on by the pro-choicers we’ll throw mud until they say something mean and then call them out on it, since we’re the good ones and on God’s side, after all…
You know it!!!!
Elizabeth –
LOL! It must be the weather! Aren’t you in Bolingbrook? I’m in Naperville, isn’t it GEORGEOUS!? It must have put you in a playful mood.
Carrie, it’s called racial intolerance and we’re doing the same damn thing today. Too many immigrants, shove ’em back where they came from, even though they’re doing all the dirty work we don’t want to do.
I’m in Aurora actually Kristen, and YES it is beautiful outside!!
A Catholic Priest that was imprisoned at Auschwitz took the place of a Jewish man that was to be sent to a starvation chamber. His name? Maximilian Kolbe. The Jewish man, Franciszek Gajowniczek, was grateful and 40 years later, was present at the ceremony when Maximilian Kolbe was declared a Catholic Saint.
“Not one hundred in the United States hate the Roman Catholic Church, but millions hate what they mistakenly think that the Roman Catholic Church is.” ~ Bishop Fulton Sheen
Edyt: It is also religious intolerance. 80% of Ireland at that time was Catholic.
Come on ladies. Edyt obviously can’t take the fact that MK called her out on her rather egregious statement about the horrors of religion in Europe so long ago, while completely ignoring the horrors that are taking place right under her nose.
She got backed into a corner and, like any scared animal, is hissing and spitting to show her “courage.” Let’s let her go and lick her wounds.
LizfromNebraska,
My brother chose Maximillian as his confirmation name. What an amazing man he was.
Edyt,
MK, don’t be dumb. It was a EUROPEAN HISTORY class.
Details! lol
The point is the same. You know US history. You know about how we got this country. You know about Margaret Sanger. You know the history of Germany.
My point is that you live in the US, you support PP and I don’t think you hate all germans…despite their gruesome “histories”…
So why the church? Why do you hate her, because of her past?
I have tried to explain that the people within the church are often corrupt, but the teachings, the church herself, is faultless.
Elizabeth,
I’ll bet there are a lot of “Benedict’s” this year too!
Edyt: My point being that ALL religions have suffered from religious persecution and ALL religions have persecuted. Catholics aren’t the only ones that have persecuted in the name of God. People don’t even have to be religious to persecute and discriminate. It isn’t religion’s fault. It is the fault of the ignorant people who use religion as a venue to act on their hateful tendencies.
I know right, MK!
Those damned Catholics, though. We’ll never let them forget about anything.
Suuuuure, Margaret Sanger who founded PP was a blatant racist, but the whole organization just CAN’T be held responsible for her beliefs.
Certainly we shouldn’t hate those Germans for what they did to the Jews.
But those Catholics, I say we get em’….
Let’s all remember that we’re not out to win arguments here; we’re out to win souls. I think we should show a little less hostility towards those with whom we disagree.
Come on ladies. Edyt obviously can’t take the fact that MK called her out on her rather egregious statement about the horrors of religion in Europe so long ago, while completely ignoring the horrors that are taking place right under her nose.
Oh, I completele agree. Religion is still doing many horrible things to innocent people today.
I guess I should hate David Beckham because of what the English did to my ancestors……
Edyt,
Religion doesn’t do anything to anybody. People do.
Edyt: Don’t you think that people who do horrible things because of what they call their relgion would still do those things even if relgion never existed? Horrible people are going to do horrible things unfortunately. Witness the atrocities committed in atheist communist U.S.S.R.
…although I don’t think that I could ever hate David Beckham. Me likey.:)
Posted by: Elizabeth at April 16, 2008 4:50 PM
So true, so true.
Bobby: Let’s all remember that we’re not out to win arguments here; we’re out to win souls. I think we should show a little less hostility towards those with whom we disagree.
You are exactly right. What some non-Catholics, or ex-Catholics don’t understand is that someone insulting the Pope ranks right up there with someone insulting your mother. It’s hard to take lightly sometimes.
I’m going to go check the TV coverage. I haven’t had a chance to see much yet.
Edyt: Don’t you think that people who do horrible things because of what they call their relgion would still do those things even if relgion never existed? Horrible people are going to do horrible things unfortunately. Witness the atrocities committed in atheist communist U.S.S.R.
Posted by: Carrie at April 16, 2008 4:51 PM
Good point.
Multi thousands of American/German Catholics died in WW2 fighting German Catholics. So did all denominations of Protestants. Care to explain how it got to such state of affairs where the Christian religion was soo weak it couldn’t stop the mass slaughter of each other Jess? But, I predict your silly answer is they have been killing each other for years.
Jess is a typical shallow thinker who might think about that fact jack. But Jess’s ability to critically think about how religion was reduced to practically nothing in its authority to stop the slaughter of millions of fellow Christians is already known in in the canned mind of Jess.
40 million Christians died in ww2.
The result is the ignorance of Jess for all to see in her writing about Catholics being silent while Jews were being executed by National SOCIALIST GERMAN WORKERS Party. They weren’t and either was the Protestant denominations. Bonhoffer to the Pope predicted the actions of the Socialist German Workers Party before they began their holocaust of their own citizens who happened to be a “foreign religion” from a land area outside of the sacred homeland of the Hun.
Religion in the modern era has no power and is a servant of the state.
Jess is a typical result of being propagandized by the same people(state education) who invented the nation state and educated her to avoid their(secularist) true responsibility in making millions upon millions of Christians kill each other in the wars of the 20th century.
Your a weak mind Jess, and your thinking about religion,statism,secular ideology, is truly worthless unless your propagandizing a child.
Think Jess, before you remove the doubt that your propagandized mind writes such cheap history of religion in war.
No, I don’t think people would do the same things if they didn’t feel their religion justified it and even CALLED for it.
As a History Professor at a Junior college I challenge my classes to comment on the following statement:
Organized religion has caused more suffering, wars and violence than any other cause.
Almost all the students raise their hands in agreement. I then demand that they provide dead bodies as evidence. They usually mention the Crusades and one or two other religious wars they might have heard of but in none of their examples can they come up with a million deaths. (Some scholars used to teach that the Thirty Years
Death Toll Cause
50 million Second World War
40 million Mao Zedong
40 million Mongol Conquests
25 million Manchu Conquest
20 million Taiping Rebellion
20 million Annihilation of the American Indians
20 million Iosif Stalin
19 million Mideast Slave Trade
18 million Atlantic Slave Trade
17 million Timur Lenk
15 million First World War
9 million Russian Civil War
9 million Thuggee
8 million Fall of Rome
7 million Thirty Years War
5 million Congo Free State
3 million Chinese Civil War
And how many of those were religious, exactly?
Elizabeth the 4:37 PM Post —-
Cool. My youngest nephew, who is so adorable at 13 months old, is named Kolbe, after the Saint.
That’s 325,000,000 million killed for non religious reasons, often for atheistic or anti religious reasons…
How many you got for the religious side?
For anyone who want to follow the Pope’s travels in the U.S., go to:
http://www.pope2008.typepad.com/
Here’s a book that comes highly recommended. The author speaks German and went to the Pope’s hometown to learn more about Pope Benedict:
“BENEDICT OF BAVARIA”
An Intimate Portrait of the Pope and His Homeland
by Brennan Pursell
Highlighting a little-known personal side of Joseph Ratzinger, Pope Benedict XVI, this book places him in the context of his homeland, Bavaria – a place which the author, Brennan Pursell, has come to know well through extensive travel and study over the last twelve years. Explore the extraordinary brilliance of Pope Benedict’s mind and the universality of his vocation within the context of his identity as a simple son of his beloved homeland, Bavaria. Includes color photos and a rare look at a day in the life of the Pope. Just in time for the Pope’s visit to the U.S. this spring – order your copy today!
Hardcover w/dustjacket, 240 pp
Circle Press USA
ISBN 1-933271-17-5
Jess, you have serious, serious issues. It took me five minutes to calm down after reading your posts, and I was within seconds of posting something in reply to you that probably would have gotten me banned from here. You need to back off a little bit and stop making such insane claims.
The other day you were saying that you support abortion because a baby might have bad parents. Now you’re accusing the Pope of taking part in Nazi atrocities! It might be rude of me to say this, but it seems to me that the situations upon which you base the philosophies by which you live your entire life are complete fabrications. In other words, your entire mentality is based on complete nonsense.
Pope Benedict XVI, also called Joseph Ratzinger, was NEVER a member of the Nazi Party. His family was always strongly anti-Nazi. To accuse him of participating in or supporting the mass murder committed by the Nazis is HISTORICALLY INACCURATE HATE SPEECH.
And then there are those of you who keep saying that Pope Benedict XVI is somehow vastly different from Pope John Paul II. In what way is he different? Cardinal Ratzinger was practically JPII’s right hand man, and they agreed on all issues of theology.
“The other day you were saying that you support abortion because a baby might have bad parents.”
I never said that. Find where I said that.
“His family was always strongly anti-Nazi.”
His family was but he didn’t care enough to take a stand.
Bethany, I just read your 3:54 pm post, thank you so very much. You said exactly what I needed to hear. I’m not angry anymore. Thank you so much : )
Edyt: Then you are not assigning responsibility to the people who commit evil acts. You are absolving them of any personal responsibility for what they have done.
I’m very happy to hear that, Jess. Praise the Lord, Bethany.
For those who criticize the horrible things SOME Catholics have done, just remember that one of the Apostles WHOM JESUS CHOSE betrayed Him. Did that represent the true teaching of the Church? No. It was one single person who betrayed Christ and His teachings.
It is the same thing with the Catholic Church. Just because there are Catholics who have done bad things, in history and in current times, there actions do not reflect Catholic teaching.
If an Apostle who knew Jesus personally and witnessed His miracles can betray him, why don’t you think a Catholic who didn’t personally know Jesus is capable of betraying Him. It isn’t the Church; it’s the person disobeying Church teaching that’s the problem.
Jess,
Whatever it was that Bethany said that reached you, amen sister…If you need to talk, you know where to find me…and Bethany.
Okay,
Now for Laura!
You asked us to look closely at those pictures…well…it seems to me that they were all taken before it was understood who and what Hitler was. In the beginning he sounded like the greatest thing since sliced bread. And he was all over the Catholic Church…
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mein Kampf was published in two volumes in 1925 and 1926. Everyone knew what Hitler was about, and the Catholic Church jumped in with both feet.
mk, Bobby, Bethany, thank you for everything : )
God LOVE you, my friend!
No problem Jess, you know we adore you! Brat! :)
Laura,
Well it’s 2008 and I still haven’t read it! Do you honestly believe that the Catholic church was in a conspiracy with Hitler? Why? What could they possibly gain, by knowing what he was up to and joining forces?
(((((((((((((Hugs))))))))))) Jess!!
MK,
“Well it’s 2008 and I still haven’t read it!”
Believe it or not, I actually read some of it in high school. Tried to read the whole thing, but failed, who would have thought… Anyhow, I was searching around the internet as well as my memory, and it doesn’t even seem to me that it was obvious from the book that Hitler wanted to do the things that he planned on doing. I don’t think Mein Kampf contains this “mass murder extermination” ideology that Hitler would go on to act out. It’s easy for us with hindsight 20/20 to sit here and say what he was planning to do was obvious from his book, but it doesn’t appear that way. I could be wrong, but I doubt any of us are willing to read through Mein Kampf just to prove a point.
Hah! Tune into EWTN Live right now. Fr. Pacwa (sp?) and guest are speaking about Pope Pius XII during WWII. Timely topic, eh?
http://www.ewtn.com/audiovideo/index.asp
I just call him Fr. Mitch.
My favorite two comments today were the following:
Mr. Ratzinger said, “It is vitally important that the vulnerable are always shielded from souls who would cause harm,”
And President Bush said, “In a world where some treat life as something to be debased and discarded, we need your message that all human life is sacred and that each of us is willed.”
Those words gave me the chills!!!!
Awesome!!!!
I’ve been listening Ellie. AWESOME! I wish Laura, Jess, Edyt and the rest of our friends were listening. We need a website to quote from.
Right now he’s saying that the guy the wrote Hitler’s Pope now renounces his work, but people who read it, still think it’s true and that this is where a lot of this erroneous info is coming from…
MK: “I wish Laura, Jess, Edyt and the rest of our friends were listening.”
OK students, for your homework I want you to listen to EWTN which can be viewed at the above link for one week after tonight. (Tonight’s show should be available tomorrow and be available through next Wednesday.)
Go to the above link. No, let me make it easy for you:
http://www.ewtn.com/audiovideo/index.asp
At the bottom of the page, you will see “EWTN Live” listed.
If you are going to criticize Pope Pius XIII and the Catholic Church, at least read/listen to other sources. The guests lists several books you can read on this subject.
Sorry, make that Pope Pius XII….got carried away with my I’s.
You know, this is like “he said, she said”….
mk or Ellie,
Do you know why this Hitler thing is such a big deal??? I’ve never heard about it before today. (not what happened, by why it’s being talked about with Catholics today)
What’s causing such a stir that it has to be talked about on the radio, too???
Ellie,
It would be awesome if they really would. That was phenomenal and so weird that it came on when it did. I know it’s topical since the pope is here and people are talking about it…but really, the timing for this thread, was uncanny.
Thanks.
@Bobby: I’ve tried reading Mein Kampf as well in high school. I also had to read a passage of it for my “Ideas and Ideologies” course last year.
Basically it’s nothing but shrill screeching about how the Jews ruined Germany and how the Aryans are the “fittest”, etc.
Though as I read it, I thought it was very similar to a piece by Friedrich Nietzsche (sp?), however Friedrich Nietzsche was not anti-semitic and in fact, his piece was meant to mock anti-semites. Apparently Hitler couldn’t catch the mocking sarcasm of Nietzsche, especially since he actually used Nietzsche to “back up” his pile of whale vomit that is “Mein Kampf”.
Unfortunately, the show started late, which means the archived show will start late, and the last few minutes will be cut off. (The archived show only shows the 1 hour timeslot, so whatever was on from 8:00-9:00 p.m. is what will be on the archive.)
“If you are going to criticize Pope Pius XIII…”
Oh, you mean the Pope of the TRUE Catholic Church? Who could ever criticize the REAL Holy Father>
Sedevacantism rules!!!!
Hmmm, the website I linked to seems to be down… well, that doesn’t make my above post very funny at all, does it…
JLM: “What’s causing such a stir that it has to be talked about on the radio, too???”
JLM, I don’t know. I have heard this before thought. The Jewish Rabii (the author of The Myth of Hitler’s Pope) that this guest mentioned was on an EWTN show a couple of years ago.
Book: http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Hitlers-Pope-Against-Germany/dp/0895260344
I’ll see if I can search for the show he was on. EWTN archives a lot of audio.
Bobby,
I find it ironic!
Right, Rae. It definitely is anti-semitic, but it is a far cry from hating someone to deduce that he plans to exterminate them.
“Apparently Hitler couldn’t catch the mocking sarcasm of Nietzsche, especially since he actually used Nietzsche to “back up” his pile of whale vomit that is “Mein Kampf”.”
hehe
I was just about to mention the EWTN Live show. It was mentioned that thousands of Jews lives were saved due to Catholics in Italy hiding them, providing habits, baptismal certificates, etc.
Ellie,
That’s ok…I was just wondering if you knew off the top of your head. I did a tiny bit of research, and it seems like he may have been in Hitler’s Youth for a very short time when he was 14. I know I didn’t make very good decisions when I was 14, and I “followed the crowd” as well!! But it seemed like during those times, you really HAD to “follow the crowd”. I don’t think people should hold that against him, though, unless of course they are willing to “cast the first stone”….I don’t know anyone who made PERFECT decisions at 14!!!
OK class, more homework:
http://ewtn.com/library/CHISTORY/PIUS12.htm
JLM, here you go:
http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/resolve.asp?audiofile=wo_10142005.rm
I think that’s a very fair assessment, JLM.
@Bobby: Yup. There was nothing in Mein Kampf (from what I could stomach to read) that said anything about exterminating “inferior” people.
*le barf*
La barf indeed!
Ellie,
Thank you…I have it playing in the background while I post! LOL!!! (I’m laughing because I think it’s cool that I CAN do two things at once!!!)
I think that’s a very fair assessment, JLM
8:18pm or 8:22pm???
@JLM: Yes, it was mandatory for you to be in the HItler Youth if you were a youngin’ in Germany, otherwise you’d be sent to prison.
If you watch the movie “Swing Kids” (and older movie, not the best movie, but…) one of the characters eventually joined the Hitler Youth at his mother’s urging to make sure he didn’t end up dead like their father (who was opposed to the Nazis and was taken away by the Gestapo early on and was worked to death in a prison).
The kid in the movie was a fanatic of swing music, which at the time had a lot of black artists and was therefore “forbidden” in Germany. He and many other kids in Berlin would dance to swing music and the main character had to quit dancing so that he could “join” the Hitler Youth…but eventually he was caught at an “underground” swing club (he was sold out by a “friend”) and was arrested and was presumed to go to a prison or work camp.
Rae,
That sounds sad! I haven’t watched any movies about the Nazi’s….I think it’s really creepy, evil and sad! The Sound of Music was enough for me!!! (one of my favorite all-time movies!)
I read the Diary of Anne Frank (sp?) a few years ago for the first time. Oh how I cried!!!! That was a horrible, horrible time in history. It scares me alot, though, because history always repeats itself. Abortion proves this.
:(
Ah, 8:22pm, JLM.
I can’t find a copy of Mein Kampf laying around, but this quote jibes with what I remember from 20th Century History class:
“The Final Solution”
“Adolf Hitler had the solution to the “Jewish Question” in mind when he talked of the killing of Jews in his book, “Mein Kampf” (page 679) written in 1924. Many references to race preservation and elimination of Germany’s enemies (Jews mentioned over and over) showed his vision of the future 15 years before he invaded Poland.
When the actual order to begin the active destruction of the Jews is a subject of light debate.”
I read a lot about WWII growing up. I was a big fan of the American Girl novels and one of them was a girl who lived during WWII. I also liked the novel, “Number the Stars” by Lois Lowry. That was a book about a Danish girl and her family who take in her Jewish friend to hide her from the Nazis (her oldest sister Lise was killed by the Nazis when she was leaving a Resistance meeting). The family runs to northern Denmark to get the little Jewish girl to Sweden (which was neutral during the War).
I once read this most excellent Star Trek: DS9 fanfic where the characters are sent back to 1944 and one of the characters (Dr. Bashir) was sent to Poland 1944 where he was taken to Auschwitz. Great story. Made my blood boil.
I watched *a lot* of WWII documentaries on The History Channel, Discovery Health (a really good Hitler documentary that basically said, “He was nucking futs. He either had Parkinsons, or was a speed addict…and he was probably gay”, glorious!), and the Discovery Channel.
My youngest brother and I are M*A*S*H addicts too… :)
Ah, 8:22pm, JLM
LOL!!! Yeah, I didn’t think I just “missed” the headline today that read “Hell Froze Over Today”….
:)
“Number the Stars” is one of my all time favorite books. I read it in grade school (at a Catholic school) and I bought myself a copy years ago. I should probably get a copy for my oldest niece when she’s in 3rd or 4th grade.
Did anyone ever read “Night” by Eli Wiesel? I read that in high school in my social literature class. Quite eye opening (Eli Wiesel was sent to a concentration camp. Its the story of his experience).
@LizFromNebraska: I haven’t read “Night” but I have heard of it. I’ve also read “Maus”…that book is sad. :(
Liz,
I read it. It was GREAT. Made me cry. I swore off all of this holocaust stuff after DC with Jill, but I guess I can’t hide…it keeps finding me!
“I watched *a lot* of WWII documentaries on The History Channel, Discovery Health (a really good Hitler documentary that basically said, “He was nucking futs. He either had Parkinsons, or was a speed addict…and he was probably gay”, glorious!), and the Discovery Channel.”
Rae, I watch the History/ Discovery channel too sometimes. I saw one documentary that suggested Hilter was part Jewish himself. He basically believed in a superior Arian race of people. Whats really sad is how many german people and others stood by while this nut was gaining power.
@Jasper: It is really sad, but it is a common occurrence (people have “tolerated” many horrible things throughout human history). The Milgram Obedience Experiments detail on that phenomenon.
I can safely bet that Jess would be a sucker for the politics of the Nationalist Socialist German Workers Party from being a product of a state/secular education.
Simply because her ability to think outside her public education she received at the hands of the state education system of the USA has formed her personality, character, and decisions about right and wrong.
Jess would have been a typical gunner/striver for making herself increase her wealth,health and power through a state education offered by the state.
Her thinking represents a typical mind educated by a typical state morality that envelopes Jess into being a typical subject of a nation state.
Another words, a good citizen.
And a easy mind to sway into murdering German Jews or German Catholics, if the choice was given to work at a baby death factory where babies are sent down a assembly line and stabbed for being defective products of German citizens and Polish citizens, or going to the Eastern Front and dying as a citizen of Germany.
BTW Jess, you will deny your “assigned state work”(your at war Jess and to deny a assignment might mean dying with Maximillian Kolbe or Bonhoffer) of course, because you think your better then a state educated mind, when it comes to your typical state morality made mind, writing at this board.
P.s. Jess. I have the “state made dagger” that was used to stab hours old infants(several hours before they were infants, they were just a fetus) by state educated,non religious, secular medical personnel.
I have the pictures of the state educated nurses at their assembly line work table where they proudly did their work for the state of Germany.
Typical German women working to better themselves, and improve their time on this Earth.
As told to me, after seeing their typical daily work on young human beings, which two days before where not persons, but a fetus, they were lined up and shot. I bet that makes you sad to think your fellow minded, state educated nurses were just shot without a legal hearing huh, Jess? The state gave them the authority, education, and made them think exactly as they wanted them to think about those ex-fetuses, and judged those ex-fetuses, non persons, to be executed by the authority of the state.
Relatives of yours Jess?
If not relatives, fellow religious minded thinkers such as you Jess.
You have shown me nothing Jess, in your thinking and writing that a typical German mind of the NAZI Germany era, thought about the state and religion
Sucker!!!
“He was nucking futs.”
I read that wrong the first time and almost chastised you, lol.
yllas, did you miss my whole speech about standing up for what you believe in and dying for your your cause? And how am I a “good citizen”? Because I never bombed a health care facility? Even if abortion was illegal I would still defend a woman’s right to choose.
Rae,
Is Swing Kids the one with Christian Bale in it? Because if it is, then I have seen that movie and it’s a great one! If not, well then I must be thinking of something else.
Another Christian Bale movie I love: NEWSIES! Ahhh, I’m a musical theatre geek i know!
@Elizabeth: Yes! Christian Bale is in it, but I watched it because it had Robert Sean Leonard (Dr. Wilson from “House, MD”) in it. Lol.
Noah Wylie was in it as well.
If the teenaged Ratzinger had run around trying to fight Nazis, he would not be pope because he would be dead just like Pastor Martin Niem
Oh yes! I really liked him in it too! It was a good movie..although I wish Christian Bale wouldn’t have turned bad…I hate it when he does bad guy characters.
@Elizabeth: I thought it was okay…not great, but not awful…though the end stuff “Swing Heil” crap was cheeeeeeeesy.
Poor Jess,
unable to understand that she is a product of a state education in the USA as were those good German citizens.
You exhibit the same conclusions,assumptions,prejudice, about religion as those good state educated citizens of NAZI Germany did.
As for this standing up for what one believes, you believe exaclty as the state education wants you to believe.
You have exhibited the same thinking as secular state Germans did towards religion before, during and after ww2.
You think you would stand up for what you believe, but you wouldn’t stand up for Bonhoffer or Kolbe, since it was that typical religious minded German that allowed them to die without any mention of their death. Why? because you and your religious mind thinking are exaclty in tune with those good state educated citizens that did nothing to stop the death of a Catholic priest and Protestant theologian.
If anything Jess, you would have stood up for what you believe and asked for the death of those Catholics and Protestants that rejected what the state produced through making you a stooge of the state by education.
Your writing is exactly in agreement with the secular state of today, and you would do exactly as the state demands of you concerning religious authority, as did those good German citizens did nothing while their theologians were sent to die in concentration camps.
Why? Because your mind is a product of the state, telling you about the state history and a church/religion. It is only one side of the coin and you think Jess, from only getting one side of the coin to study. Amazing, a typical defender of moral relativism not understanding that your history of religion and the state is from only from one moral pov.. Get it Yet Jess?
Sucker!!
On a personal note.
My uncle lost 63 family members in the Holocaust. One of his uncles escaped Auschwitz.
I think we all remember the Anne Frank story. All those people were killed.
What would you really do for a stranger knowing that it would cost you your life and the lives of all of your family members?
That is how these regimes work. Total intimidation.
Would Jess really be willing to lose her own life and the lives of all her familiy for a stranger? I mean if an unplanned pregnancy is too much trouble, how about sacrificing your life and the lives of your whole family? Uh, doesn’t pass the sniff test.
lol yeah…that definitely was rae!
Titcr Hippie.
Jess will now tell us how she would take a bullet for the Pope if she saw a gunman shooting at the Pope.
But, IRL, she would duck and hide when the first report hit her precious ears.
If you can murder your own, why die for a person who opposes your murdering your own flesh and blood? Let’s see if Jess pumps herself up into a super hero for strangers and Popes.
“Jess will now tell us how she would take a bullet for the Pope if she saw a gunman shooting at the Pope.”
Why would I take a bullet for the Pope? Have you read any of my posts?
“Would Jess really be willing to lose her own life and the lives of all her family for a stranger?”
If I believe it is the right thing to do. Honestly I wouldn’t want to live in a world controlled by anti-choicer’s anyway.
And who cares if I would or wouldn’t take a bullet for someone I’m not a huge moral figure for billions.
Not sure if these points were brought up, but have to say them:
-Hitler was very secular, it was Mussolini (sp?) who tried to tie amends with the Church. Hitler used secular signs for the Nazi flag, and many Catholics were victims of persecution. Churches were burned to separate them from “real Germans”.
-Re: Obama. You should accuse every powerful speaker of the same, maybe Martin Luther King, Jr? A nice counteract is the philosophy of “don’t think, just feel,” which sums up a lot of right-wing philosophy. In fact the Fascists were just Communists of the right (in terms of totalitarianism and dictatorships). No better or worse, in all honesty. Mass murder and blame to all around. Part of the problem was the reluctance to be involved after the horrors of WWI, and although that is a harsh reality to face, we don’t hold hostility to every Frenchman or British who didn’t lay down their lives to end the genocide.
– I agree blaming religion for all the evils of the world is just ignorant. People are ultimately to blame. The US shoulders a lot of blame for human rights abuses. One of them being the evils of abortion, but also breaches of life and the quality of life in the form of death penalty, torture, and support of sweatshop conditions included.
-Jess, glad you calmed down. We watched a US propaganda film today in History, and they called the Germans “blonde-headed beasts” and “non-thinking, easily duped masses” incapable of.
disagreement. I feel you were echoing these feelings. It’s hard to complain about children not openly dying under direct threat of death, starvation, imprisonment. I couldn’t say I’d even be that strong because I’ve never been in a situation where I felt forced to be in a nationwide youth organization that ultimately amounted to indoctrination (some of which is happening now), and since you haven’t either maybe we should just chalk it up to history. and you made a lot of personal attacks on the Pope that can’t be made without personally knowing him. I”m so glad you see now the cause of your anger and are working through it.
-If I missed anything sorry, my sleeping meds are kicking in hardcore.
Poor Jess, boxed into being a typical mind, educated in a typical state system thinking of herself as not being the same as a good German citizen of the NAZI era.
Your writing about religion is easily transported back to 1930’s Germany and would make for another typical example of those good Germans writing about religion in NAZI Germany.
Any good German educator would recognize your writing concerning religion, Jess, and give you a A+ to allow you continue your education by the state.
And to push you into more typical thinking about religion and the state, the prof might even coax you with a free education/grant/scholarship through the Hitler Youth Group.
Of course you would deny it Jess, simply because the history of the Nationalist Socialist German Workers Party is finished, and their deeds are known.
But, after reading your typical minded writing at this post board concerning religion Jess, you would have taken the bait and become a raving NAZI.
But, you get better Jess, because you would still be a NAZI education defender, simply because your education was from being a NAZI educated citizen.
The last thing you would do Jess is join a religion,after blaming religion the rest of your life, for what the state education did to millions of citizens of Germany and the world, while telling citizens it was the Pope and religion that caused ZYZ. Get it yet Jess?
Sucker!!!
Pip blows smoke again.
Secular sign? Wrong. Pagan symbol re-introduced into German culture by Jorg Lanz Von Liebenfels in 1907. A excommunicated monk(homosexual) who founded Ordo Novi Templi.
BTW PIP, do you agree that “war criminals” should be tortured? If a “war criminal” is tortured, should the torturer be brought to justice and sent to prison for “torturing a war criminal”? What should the punishment for torturing war criminals be?
Or allowed to live out their life in total immunity from justice allowing the torture of war criminals?
Now think carefully PIP before you answer because you might be called a typical state minded stooge of a state education too.
Yeah I totally just follow the crowd that is so why I was going along and agreeing with everyone today. And I totally don’t get crap from my family because I’m pro-choice because I obviously went the easy way and and just be pro-life. Yeah totally follow the crowd A+ for you.
Now please change I want Sally back.
“I feel you were echoing these feelings.”
How PIP? I simply don’t want to obey the moral laws of a man I don’t think should be the highest authority in morality.
BTW PIP, They were “blonde headed beast.”
Reinhard Heydrich, was “nicknamed” by his fellow German’s , “the Splendid Blonde Beast”, also known as “Hangman Heydrich”. Heydrich served in the “protection squad”. You know them for their “pagan Runic letters”(to you another “secular sign” PIP!!!!) on their uniforms PIP. Then again, being Pip, maybe not, since PIP defends evolution, as not being connected to racial theories based on evolutionary science.
Gee, I think the German Jews even called that good German secular citizen a blond beast before those Free Czechs(could have been Jewish Free Czechs) committed a “war crime” against Reinhard, by assassinating him with gunshots and a bomb. Well at least the good,state educated German citizen thought it to be a “war crime”, and then executed 1000 Czech citizens for that war crime against that splendid blonde beast of Germany.
But, alas, PIP might ask her prof when Jewish writers named Germans, “those blond headed beast”, during the time they were being murdered by those blonde headed beast, and if it was just another propaganda blast by those German and American Jew writers of propaganda. Or just a plain old propaganda blast, by plain old Americans, “with a know” for what Germans named themselves(blond beast), during a war.
Get a hint PIP, blond beast was used to describe those Germans during ww2 and it was not propaganda to the Jews,American Jews, American Catholics, Protestant German-Americans, or anyone fighting those “blond beast” from Germany.
Soo, now we know where you got your prejudice and education from concerning religion and the modern state Jess. Your family, plus your onesided coined history lessons, about religion and the state.
I can’t blame you for being a typical minded person whose education is based on the state allowing you to hear their version of history and religion.
Your writing reveals your mind has been reduced to a typical good citizen of a secular state that follows the typical citizenship morality of a state authority.
If you were born in the USSR, you would think as a good Komsomol and repeat what the state has educated you to respond too, how to respond, when to respond to any matter of the state and their authority.Which included the matters of how to respond to a Orthodox Catholic(a young komsomol friend of Jess at that elite komsomol school), who reveals his family is still practicing their religion in a “underground church”, and your resonsibility to report such matters to a state authority. Your writing Jess, reveals exactly what you would do to continue to be a good citizen of the USSR. Of course the state would give you a young Komsomol award that assures you a university autoadmit. Millions of people who think just as you do Jess about “religious thinking”, allowed millions of Catholics/Orthodox to die in unknown locations to this day. Afterall, why should the state write about what they did concerning religion and their state government, when religion was the cause for the state doing what they did to their fellow religious Russians, Jess? Get it yet Jess? The state still owns the history to this day in every modern state education system. You sadly reveal nothing in your writing that wasn’t thought by fellow minded Russian thinkers and their “religous problems” they faced during the time when the state of the USSR preached exactly what you write today, Jess.
Fact is, your family is actually following the law and authority of the secular state of the USA, and are responding to you as they have been authorized by the state, to respond to you Jess.
And you pay a price Jess for being incorrect by a state authority concerning abortion which is being enforced down to the family level for Jess?
What price is that Jess, in not being a good citizen and not responding correctly to your state minded,good citizen parents?
A typical reply is going to be assured by Jess, since Jess lives in a typical state minded, good citizen family of the USA.
Pip blows smoke again
Posted by: yllas at April 17, 2008 1:17 AM
yllas, PIP’s post was right on. what are you talking about?
What an awesome ad!!!
Jess, my you are bitter about the people in your life that let you down. If it doesn’t make you too vulnerable you owe an apology to PB16.
PB16 rocks. I am stoked he is speaking out openly about how poorly the sex abuse was handled. I was disappointed more US Catholic priests have not spoken out like that already.
And there you go, Hippie, Jess pumps herself into a super hero, a Bonhoffer, a Kolbe, dying for total strangers as they did.
You wouldn’t, couldn’t, and never will Jess.
The state demands a certain amount of cowardice amongst it’s good citizens who are educated enough to never give their life for another citizen.Especially in war. Say like PIP, or Obama, or you.
Which leaves PIP, faced with being a state sanctioned, elite coward, who is protected by the state to run from harm’s way, while American war criminals are tortured by sanctioned state torturers of war criminals, such as John McCain.
Ain’t it grand, watching a soon to be state sanctioned coward, such as PIP, actually writing about John McCain, when PIP is running from harm’s way as fast as her education will get her clearly marked as a “secular educated coward of the state, not fit for war or torture”. Fit only to never be tortured by a official state torturer of Islam or a Vietnam communist invader.
Your reply PIP, is predictable. I’ll write it for ya right now. My family fought in some war for the USA, writes PIP, and now they never want you to have to murder for the state as they did. Ain’t it grand PIP, never having to do what your family did(murder for the state) to allow you to become a officially state protected “coward of the state”, who will never face a day in harm’s way as your family members did before you?
You go PIP. Your a future chest full of medals for avoiding the chance of being tortured in any war, at any time, at any place in the world.
“How PIP? I simply don’t want to obey the moral laws of a man I don’t think should be the highest authority in morality.”
I was just trying to lay it down to perspective. You expected someone to lay down their life as an early age, which is a tough demand, something I don’t even think I would do, to be honest. I was simply trying to say that if him being in the Hitler Youth, as was most children at the time, you call evil, then the rest of the Germans should be held in the same standards, and should also be considered evil.
It to me kind of parallels with the Sanger debate. “Everyone was racist then” is an argument that is perpetuated a lot, but most pro-choicers wouldn’t call her evil.
Pip,
I hear ya. As I said, every single person in the concentrations camps was just as guilty as Pope Benedict, by Jess’s rules. None of them (other than a rare few, like Maximillian Kolbe)stood up to the German Soldiers to save the lives of their fellow prisoners. They, like PB16, stood by and let their bunkmates, family and friends get shot, hung, beat, starved and they kept silent too.
I’M not blaming them. But Jess would. And PB16 wasn’t pope at the time, and certainly, he had no idea that one day he would be, so claiming he’s the moral leader of the world and should have known better is ridiculous. He was a fourteen year old kid.
If the Pope denies communion to pro-choice politicians, more American Catholics will leave the Church.
“If the Pope denies communion to pro-choice politicians, more American Catholics will leave the Church.”
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A handful of real American Catholics would be better than a thousand of Catholics “in name only”.
I was disgusted by George W Bush when he
agreed with the pope about”the sanctity of
human life”.His awful administration has
failed to help the poor in so many ways,
causing abortion rates INCREASE! What a brazen
hypocrite! And because of the pope’s
obtuse opposition to contraceptives,and the
Bush administration’s idiotic support of this,
enormous numbers of desperately poor women
die,are gravely harmed and left with permanent
disabilities.”Pro-choicers” are such hypocrites.
My mistake!!! That was not a Freudian slip!
“Pro-Lifers” are the real hypocrites!!
You are so concerned that all pregnant women
give birth to babies,but that concern ends
with birth.After that,you’re on your own,
kid.
Robert:
Our Pope’s message is a message of hope. Without that, we give in to despair.
Your posts are a wonderful reminder of this.
“..After that,you’re on your own,
kid…”
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You obviously have not heard of Project Gabriel…look it up.
“He was a fourteen year old kid.”
One that, perhaps God had plans for….