Breaking news: Oklahoma becomes 1st to pass sex-selection abortion ban
It’s hard to find news in MSM on this groundbreaking legislation today. Maybe it doesn’t understand the ramifications. Maybe it does.
10th paragraph down in Tulsa World today:
[Gov. Brad] Henry also signed a measure banning abortion based on gender.
That’s it. But I’ve checked with 2 national pro-life groups this morning, and to their knowledge this is the 1st sex-selection abortion ban to pass in the country….
It is well-known that sex-selection abortions are common in many Asian countries. Recently documented was that Asians have imported the practice to the U.S.
Now Oklahoma has become the first state to ban such a practice, and this really puts the other side in a bind. Will they sue to overturn this law as unconstitutional? In my mind they have to.
But according to Dan McConchie of Americans United for Life this morning:
The questions are not only will abortion proponents sue but if so, how will they sue? They’re not immune to the public relations angle. How can they argue the right to abort daughters and not sons? They have to figure out if they can frame the debate in such a way as to minimize the PR downside, if challenging this is worth the PR nightmare that will result by endorsing killing girls.
The next question is if pro-aborts decide to sue, could this lead to a Supreme Court case challenging Roe v. Wade? According to McConchie, no:
There are 2 ways to challenge abortion in court. One is head-on, and the other is around the edges. This one would fit in the latter category. Personhood initiatives would fit in the former category. This is an abortion restriction. Challenging it would be similar to the challenge against the Partial Birth Abortion Ban.
So far there is absolute silence on this new law on the pro-abort blogs. Will the other side decide simply to ignore this, as they tried with the Born Alive Infants Protection Act? Stay tuned.
[HT: National Right to Life Committee]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Don’t get me wrong; saying you can’t kill a baby is good, but how in the WORLD is this justified? There is simply no coherent argument for this law but allowing abortion to otherwise be the law of the land. This is completely incoherent when one considers the only two rational arguments in favor of abortion- bodily autonomy and persnhood. This is a clear violation of bodily autonomy, and if you abort because you’re having a boy instead of a girl, you’re not killing a person, so it doesn’t matter.
This is nonsense. It is official that the law is INTERNALLY inconsistent, and blatantly so. There is simply no way to justify abortion on demand and a ban on sex-selective abortions.
I’m sure the bottom feeders of the medical profession and
the lying moms will all “follow the law” !
Personhood now!
Jill, I think the immediate catalyst for the Oklahoma legislation may have been the recent legalization of gender-based abortions in Sweden: http://tinyurl.com/o8gfl4
This is stupid. How do you even enforce a ban like this? If a woman wants a “sex-selection” abortion but it’s not legal all she has to do is give some other novel reason for seeking her abortion, no change of [real] motive required.
This ban is totally laughable. There is no way to enforce it. Are they going to ban pre-natal testing that shows the gender of fetuses? Also, I think it’s funny how they assume all fetuses aborted because of gender are female. In Australia there was a story about women aborting male fetuses because gender selection(not abortion) is illegal there.
I don’t see how it’s enforceable either. It makes me sick to think people will kill their baby because it’s the “wrong” sex. However I do agree if that’s the case they simply will find another excuse.
How evil the world has become.
This is actually good news; at least the law is saying that respect for women is crucial. I’m glad. Hooray for you, Oklahoma. Sigh…someday, it will be illegal everywhere and then we can really celebrate that a major gain has been won in the fight against abortion. Does anyone here live in Oklahoma?
I think this is a brilliant piece of legislation! The best kind of satire that shines a light on the complete inconsistencies of abortion practice.
It chips away at abortion and does it in a way that puts the pro-abortion side in a terrible quandry. They base their claims on women’s rights; now they have to decide which women’s rights to defend – the born or the unborn – and they have to make it palatable to the general public, to try to seem that they’re not completely heartless and out of touch with John and Jill Everyman.
I’ve heard of college students who will challenge their politically correct history professors who preach that the British in India shouldn’t have interfered with the natives by asking if they should have let the Indian cultural practice of suttee (the burning alive of a man’s widow on his funeral pyre) continue. This argument always exposes the inconsistencies of the other side and causes the undecided who are listening in to think. This legislation is similar and will wake some people up.
I completely support a Personhood Amendment to the Constitution, but since that won’t be happening any time soon, I think this is a brilliant strategy!
It’s not exactly an enforceable law. Abortion providers can’t read women’s minds.
Maybe they’ll require manditory polygraph tests before the abortion.
It’s not exactly an enforceable law. Abortion providers can’t read women’s minds.
Posted by: reality at May 22, 2009 10:42 AM
You are 100% wrong. You are dishonest. Dr tiller the Killer reads minds. He glances to the mom’s face while she is up in stirrups, does a psych eval on her and determines her late term abortion must be done rapidly because she will have “irreparable harm” if she carries the baby. No woman has been able to prove they would have irreparable harm if they did not kill their unborn. It is extrapolation and mind reading that comes out with it.
Actually, the Doc Tiller used for consults did mind reading on the phone and admitted to not meeting the patients.
So a woman should disobey the new law and lie about her reasons for aborting if asked by the doctor, right?
I think the law is necessary because it draws a line in the sand. It puts the other side on defense. This is exactly what we want.
What I would really like to see is a law that says you cannot have an abortion after prenatal testing. If prenatal testing is supposed to be for “information” and to “prepare” for a boy, girl, baby with disability, etc., then it should not be used for seek and destroy purposes.
Such a law WOULD be enforceable. You have prenatal testing? No abortion. (This would make a sex-selection abortion ban enforceable as well as preventing abortion for babies with Down syndrome and other genetic conditions.)
xppc, I am 100% correct, and you are 100% delusional.
What I would really like to see is a law that says you cannot have an abortion after prenatal testing.
It’ll never happen. Polling consistently shows that most Americans support abortion for fetal defects.
“Such a law WOULD be enforceable. You have prenatal testing? No abortion. (This would make a sex-selection abortion ban enforceable as well as preventing abortion for babies with Down syndrome and other genetic conditions.)”
That’s really ridiculous. Of all the reasons for getting an abortion, preventing Down Syndrome and other defects makes the most sense.
Lynne made a good point Bobby. It will be more difficult for BO to get congressional support for the FOCA when we are able to point to the obvious virtues of laws like this, the partial birth abortion ban and parental consent for minors. Whether or not they’re enforcable is beside the point. The law establishes what is considered right and wrong for all to see and consider.
We have to strategically fight on all available fronts and continue to “chip away” as Lynne suggested. Over time the cumulative effect will continue to swing popular opinion our way as recent polls have shown.
It would not be enforcable without the government getting involved far more than they are now with medical decisions. A woman could get prenatal testing with one doctor and than go to an abortion clinic elsewhere. Unless you want the government having a data base of each woman’s gynecological decisions. This would kind of get rid of doctor patient confidentialilty. Also, while most people have no use for gender selection abortions(myself included) there is wide support for abortions for severe defects such as Down Syndrome and Trisomy 18. The idea of allowing a woman to abort a healthy fetus for economic reasons but forcing women to give birth to Downs fetuses is illogical.
you can’t allow abortions for fetal “anomalies” and then ban sex-selection abortion.
it simply doesnt make sense – after all to these families the wrong sex is simply another “anomaly” to abort.
Gender is not a birth defect. The parents may hope for something else, but objectively, being a boy or girl is not a defect.
If there really are Americans in a majority that support abortions for “fetal defects”, then those Americans are becoming more like the NAZIS who killed men and women and children just for being Jewish.
Gender is not a birth defect. The parents may hope for something else, but objectively, being a boy or girl is not a defect.
Posted by: Kate at May 22, 2009 11:57 AM
it is in the minds of those who want a particular sex.
In the minds of certain cultures, a girl is garbage. If they can eliminate the girl baby they do so.
What is so incredibly stupid about this type of thinking is that one wonders where these neanderthals think their precious sons are gonna get a wife in 20 years time?
Being Jewish is not a defect. The Nazis were barbaric racists who distorted science to support their bigoted agenda.
Angel, in their minds being of a certain gender might be a defect, but that doesn’t make it so. Being a boy or girl is perfectly natural and normal. Both men and women are needed for the species to continue.
Kate none of the reasons you listed as supported reasons for abortion are remotely constitutional. The ONLY reason a woman can validly have an abortion that follows the ridiculous constituional reasoning in Roe is to preserve her bodily domain. Obviously no late term abortions fit this bill, as the child could easily be delivered alive. Yet they continue to happen.
“What is so incredibly stupid about this type of thinking is that one wonders where these neanderthals think their precious sons are gonna get a wife in 20 years time?”
This isn’t entirely their fault. In the places where this occurs (primarily Asian countries), it’s not financially feasible (or in China, even legal) to have multiple children and a male son is the only one that can carry on the family name. This isn’t just a capricious disregard or hatred of girls.
I never said anything about late term abortions done for convenience. I believe women should get pre-natal testing for birth defects as soon as possible anyway.
This isn’t entirely their fault. In the places where this occurs (primarily Asian countries), it’s not financially feasible (or in China, even legal) to have multiple children and a male son is the only one that can carry on the family name. This isn’t just a capricious disregard or hatred of girls.
Posted by: Devo at May 22, 2009 12:16 PM
absolute rubbish!
Good grief, it is most certainly financially feasible for Chinese, Indian and other Asian couples to have many children.
These societies have leaders who have simply decided that they have too many children. The problem is not the plenitude of children. It is the unequal social system, discrimination against women and pure greed.
Kate, by the time conclusive testing can be done, the late term zone has been entered. Yes, they can still occur prior to viability, but they can not be claimed to have occured because of bodily domain. They are eugenic, pure and simple. They are not constitutionally supported.
Devo, carry that thought a bit further. If they place value on son over a daughter, they are necessarall disregarding the daughter. Sure society may impact these value judgements, but it doesn’t mean that they aren’t occuring.
The underlying message is that girl children are valued less than boy children. This is a statement about the value of women in a society.
“Of all the reasons for getting an abortion, preventing Down Syndrome and other defects makes the most sense.”
Um, Devo, abortion doesn’t prevent Downs. Downs already exists in the unborn child…otherwise what are the tests detecting? Abortion “prevents” that child with Downs from growing into an adult.
Kate,
Are you really advocating America’s disabled to get in line
for their “assisted suicide” pills?
Abortion for “birth defects” means killing the less than “perfect”
Are we vying Hitler’s Master Race program?
First of all, Hitler was racist and anti-semitic. This has nothing to do with down syndrome. He distorted science to push through his racist agenda, and in an extremely brutal way at that.
What I am advocating is protecting women from government interference by making them go through nearly a year of pregnancy and give birth to a down syndrome fetus.
“The underlying message is that girl children are valued less than boy children. This is a statement about the value of women in a society.”
If you want to look at it that way, you can. All I’m saying is that, in many cases, there are completely understandable reasons for wanting a male child over a female child. Carrying on the family name is a huge deal for most of these people and that can only be achieved through a male son.
“Um, Devo, abortion doesn’t prevent Downs. Downs already exists in the unborn child…otherwise what are the tests detecting? Abortion “prevents” that child with Downs from growing into an adult.”
Semantics. If you like, I’ll revise my statement to say that it prevents the birth of Down Syndrome sufferers rather than preventing Downs itself. Better?
Devo, again, the fact that a low value of women is entrenched in society does not somehow make the situation better.
Wome are still being killed because they are not valued. Unless you are actively working to change the way these girls are perceived, pointing out the “whys” does nothing to solve the problem.
As for children with Down Syndrome:
Stop speaking in pro-choice newspeak and think about what you’re saying. How does abortion prevent these children from being born? The answer is that it either actively kills them or allows them to be born and left to die in a soild utility room.
PGD can prevent down syndrome pregnancies. Do you all support that?
Devo, one more point. The Down Syndrome case is not semantics. Preventing Down Syndrome from occuring at all and killing a child already conceived are two radically different things.
Kate, I do not support anything that kills a unique human being.
It would not be enforcable without the government getting involved far more than they are now with medical decisions. A woman could get prenatal testing with one doctor and than go to an abortion clinic elsewhere. Unless you want the government having a data base of each woman’s gynecological decisions. This would kind of get rid of doctor patient confidentialilty.
Posted by: Kate at May 22, 2009 11:48 AM
Hi Kate. Unfortunately doctor patient confidentiality is going to be a thing of the past for all of us, not just women seeking abortions. The last stimulus package took care of that by mandating electronic tracking of the health care records of all US citizens. The bill includes some yet-to-be-defined penalties for physicians who do not comply. I doubt HHS will use the records to discourage abortions though. I believe the opposite will occur.
I just don’t understand this. If Down Syndrome people were to suffer it would not be because they have Down Syndrome or care that they have Down Syndrome- it would be because people such as yourselves hate them for it. How could anyone be so full of hatred? I don’t understand you. Down Syndrome? There’s nothing wrong with Down Syndrome. They are just as valuable as you whether you like- and whether you want the law to acknowledge it- or not.
It’s people like this that made me pro-life in the first place, because I couldn’t stand the intolerance that came with pro-choice. Please, don’t hate. They’re human beings.
“I’ll revise my statement to say that it prevents the birth of Down Syndrome sufferers rather than preventing Downs itself. Better?”
Actually, no. I’d like something like “Abortion terminates those with Down Syndrome” or “Abortion destroys those with Down Syndrome.” You could also use harsher terms like “kill,” if you wanted to be really bold. That would also be accurate. “Preventing birth” sounds like that child is somehow stuck in-utero forever, just prevented from being born. Say what you mean.
And considering that we use words like “overcoming challenges” to describe those who live with syndromes like Downs, I don’t think “sufferers” is the appropriate PC term to use in this case.
“Devo, again, the fact that a low value of women is entrenched in society does not somehow make the situation better.
Wome are still being killed because they are not valued. Unless you are actively working to change the way these girls are perceived, pointing out the “whys” does nothing to solve the problem. ”
I haven’t taken it upon myself to “solve the problem”, I’m just defending the reason behind preferring male children. It’s easy to pontificate from the comfort of your home in America about how wrong it is for male children to be more valued than female children, but that simply is the way things are in these countries, and for I think very pragmatic reasons.
“Stop speaking in pro-choice newspeak and think about what you’re saying. How does abortion prevent these children from being born? The answer is that it either actively kills them or allows them to be born and left to die in a soild utility room.”
Being the results-oriented person I am, I’m looking at the end and not the means here. Down Syndrome is a burden on society and this helps to ameloriate the problem. I’m not going to lose sleep because some people consider the means to be morally wrong.
EH, No “sufferers” is most certainly NOT the preferable term. “Children with Down Syndrome” is the best term to use. Generally speaking, those in the disability community prefer to use “people first” langauge. So you would say I am a man with x disorder, not an x disordered man.
I don’t hate people with down syndrome. I don’t want to mandate abortion for all down syndrome pregnancies. I personally could not raise one. My mother teaches remedial reading, so I know all about the difficulties. I just don’t want the government to force to go through pregnancy and childbirth to have a down syndrome fetus.
Who “suffers” from having Down Syndrome? That’s just your opinion of what they must be. Fortunately, abortion, I do believe, will be made illegal. And no one is asking at this point to acknowledge their humanity. We are asking you to just not hurt them. You can have as many bigoted ideas as you like, Devo. I cannot control, nor would I attempt, your mind. But I do ask that you never hurt another human being. And I do expect the law to change to prevent you from doing so.
Devo:
Would you advocate euthanizing those born with Down Syndrome within a few hours of birth? If you are a “results-oriented person looking at the end and not the means” and you are interested in “ameloriating” the problem of people with Down Syndrome (please, let’s remember That Downs is a syndrome used to describe the challenges of a person…you left the “people” part out of your statement), then you “wouldn’t lose sleep” over a system that would mercifully remove the suffering of infants with Downs immediately after birth.
Or is that somehow unconscionable?
“Actually, no. I’d like something like “Abortion terminates those with Down Syndrome” or “Abortion destroys those with Down Syndrome.” You could also use harsher terms like “kill,” if you wanted to be really bold. That would also be accurate. “Preventing birth” sounds like that child is somehow stuck in-utero forever, just prevented from being born. Say what you mean.”
I did say what I mean. Does abortion prevent birth? Yes. You’re bothered by this wording because you prefer the more loaded terms such as “killing” or “terminating.”
“And considering that we use words like “overcoming challenges” to describe those who live with syndromes like Downs, I don’t think “sufferers” is the appropriate PC term to use in this case.”
You’re really reading me wrong here if you think I’m concerned about being PC. I’m not sugarcoating anything here, I’m not fretting about the “woman’s right to choose”, I’m looking at things from a rational standpoint.
Devo, are you kidding me?
“I’m looking at the end and not the means here. Down Syndrome is a burden on society and this helps to ameloriate the problem. I’m not going to lose sleep because some people consider the means to be morally wrong.”
So basically you support eugenics. Gotcha. Don’t bother saying anything else, this pretty much says it all. I will leave you with this.
http://picasaweb.google.com/BarbarasMommyLife/OurLittleExtrasAMotherSDayDownSyndromeCelebration?authkey=FkN3NRQpYFY#
These lives have value. I hope one day you will see the truth.
“Would you advocate euthanizing those born with Down Syndrome within a few hours of birth? If you are a “results-oriented person looking at the end and not the means” and you are interested in “ameloriating” the problem of people with Down Syndrome (please, let’s remember That Downs is a syndrome used to describe the challenges of a person…you left the “people” part out of your statement), then you “wouldn’t lose sleep” over a system that would mercifully remove the suffering of infants with Downs immediately after birth.”
It’s not exactly something I’d throw my entire weight behind, but no, euthanizing Down Syndrome-afflicted infants would not be the most controversial thing in the world to me.
It’s not just their suffering that I’m looking at here–Down Syndrome is a burden on society itself.
Devo, abortion doesn’t always prevent birth. Sometimes babies are born alive and left to die alone in soild utility rooms. Our president thinks this is A-OK because giving those children care would burden the woman’s original decision to kill her child. I’m sure you agree.
So, older children or adults with Downs would also be disposable for the good of society?
“So, older children or adults with Downs would also be disposable for the good of society?”
Not entirely. I would support their sterilization but not their euthanization. I understand there’s always the possibility of the “slippery slope” issue when getting at what we’re discussing and I am very mindful of it. A line does have to be drawn and I haven’t yet determined exactly where that line is.
How old would someone have to be to keep from being eliminated for the good of society?
Kate says ” I just don’t want the government to force to go through pregnancy and childbirth to have a down syndrome fetus.”
First of all, if you’ve gone through the childbirth you would have a neonate with down syndrome, not a “down syndrome fetus.”
But, you’re right, you should totally have the option to kill your child! I mean, we’re all promised perfect pregnancies and perfect babies, right? If the kid breaks the contract we should totally be able to break its neck.
“What is so incredibly stupid about this type of thinking is that one wonders where these neanderthals think their precious sons are gonna get a wife in 20 years time?
Posted by: angel at May 22, 2009 12:11 PM”
==============================================
Hmmm…in 20 years’ time, these boys will become homosexuals and will have no need for women…thanks to all the homophobia and transgender training they will get from the government. They will all have live-in partners of the same sex and one will choose to “get pregnant” via IVF method and receive hormonal shots to be able to lactate and breastfeed the child.
They will abort their daughters and choose only sons to carry on the family name. These “sons” will also receive the same values and training and the process runs all over again.
It all makes sense!!
Devo, here’s a clue, how about the line is drawn at killing people. Pretty simple.
Rest assured, however, that most people with DS are sterile. I’m sure that knowledge brings you endless utilitarian glee.
And, who should do the eliminating? Would it have to be some sort of medical specialist, or can any concerned citizen eliminate someone for the good of society?
“How old would someone have to be to keep from being eliminated for the good of society?”
Exactly 6 hours, 30 minutes, and 15 seconds, on the dot.
You are being pithy because you don’t want to deal with the reality of what you have just said.
What I am advocating is protecting women from government interference by making them go through nearly a year of pregnancy and give birth to a down syndrome fetus.
Posted by: Kate at May 22, 2009 12:53 PM
and who is “protecting” the unborn baby Kate?
When we are talking about a down syndrome newborn, the mother has already gone through the difficulties of chilbirth and pregnancy. She can give the child up for adoption if she chooses. Not permitting euthanasia of ds infants puts no undue burden on her.
PGD can prevent down syndrome pregnancies. Do you all support that?
Posted by: Kate at May 22, 2009 1:03 PM
do you even no what this is?
Why should we prevent down syndrome pregnancies? How could we? How would this test help women who conceive their children naturally?
Sure it does, Kate. We’ve been told again and again that abortion is emotionally easier for a woman than adoption. If a mother gives birth to a child with Down Syndrome, it may be emotionally easier for her to allow the child to be killed than to give it up for adoption. Surely this emotional strain could be considered “undue burden.”
The same logic excuses abortion, why not euthanasia?
“no” should be know! good grief, I had a brain freeze!
Good to know that my niece who has Down Syndrome would have been targeted in utero by a few on this thread. She is an absolute joy and I am sickened by those of you who think killing her would somehow have been “right.”
Evil. Pure evil.
It’s not exactly something I’d throw my entire weight behind, but no, euthanizing Down Syndrome-afflicted infants would not be the most controversial thing in the world to me.
It’s not just their suffering that I’m looking at here–Down Syndrome is a burden on society itself.
Posted by: Devo at May 22, 2009 1:20 PM
this is just so sad.
Do you know ANYTHING about Down Syndrome? Do you have any contact with persons who have Down Syndrome? ?????
To lighten the mood for all people defending the disabled, I remembered some stories that I’d like to share with you:
At my school, a girl named Della, who has Down Syndrome, once made everybody in the cafeteria laugh by doing her favorite dance. She loves to put on shoes in the cafeteria to make people smile. She wiggles her hips and bops from table to table and even the people in the gangs, who society deems hardened monsters, applaud for her. They like her. We all do.
And there’s this boy named Daniel who’s so funny, too! He adores, and I do mean adores, strawberry milk. He walks around the hallways carrying it and chugging it. And, even though he is one of those “burdens on society,” even those “monster gangbangers” will play basketball with him because he also likes basketball.
And then there’s Cody, sweet and funny. Cody is my cousin. He doesn’t have Down Syndrome- I think, but don’t take me up on this because I’m not positive, that his mother did drugs while she was pregnant. Every single day he comes up to me, wishes me a happy day, chats, and then leaves. He’s in a wheelchair. But even the popular football players will say hello and compliment him. And he loves the Dallas Cowboys. I have vowed that if I do anything for anyone in this town, I will save up enough money so that he can go see them play. He laughs, smiles, loves when people joke with him.
You see, Devo and Kate, you can spew in all the eloquence that you want all of the hatred that you please. Your words are intelligent, very well-educated, but they lack the knowledge of what it means to be human. Every time that Della makes us laugh, every time that Cody makes us smile, and every time that Daniel cheers with the football players, they have accomplished more good for this world than you ever could imagine.
And I hope that you realize that if Down Syndrome is a burden in your world, then that is not the world that anyone ought to live in. Have a nice day.
well said, Vannah!
‘Such a law WOULD be enforceable. You have prenatal testing? No abortion. (This would make a sex-selection abortion ban enforceable as well as preventing abortion for babies with Down syndrome and other genetic conditions.)’
Yes, I agree completely. I was kind of thinking that before I read this post, but this says it better than I could.
And, wow, yes, I agree that people have said some pretty nasty things about people with Down’s Syndrome. That is horrible, and gruesomely, hideously offensive. I hope some of the posts were just playing “devil’s advocate”. But, still, . . . . Yuck.
That kind of talk is unacceptable. I believe it could be considered a form of hate speech.
Down Syndrome is a burden on society
Sad irony here. I think of those DS who are working. Paying taxes. Taxes that support programs that encourage their elimination from society. God have mercy on us!
Carla, when I was growing up the most popular kid in my neighborhood had Downs. No one picked on him. Everyone played with him. And I don’t recall any of the adults telling us we had to treat him in any special way. We all enjoyed including him in games. Sure, we watched out for him sometimes if he got too close to the road or needed a little redirection, but he was just another kid in the neighborhood. Especially at the pool, that kid could outswim anybody! I’m sure he taught us a lot more than any of us taught him.
Is Johnny the Bagger a drain?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xgq1rSR38zg
drain on society, I mean. Johnny isn’t the kid I grew up with, but I find his story very inspirational.
Very well said, Vannah.
That kind of talk is unacceptable. I believe it could be considered a form of hate speech.
Posted by: Diana Goodavage at May 22, 2009 1:58 PM
nope. Doncha know it’s only hate speech if you speak out against homosexual behavior.
Diana,
We have The First Amendment in the US. We don’t have European style hate speech laws.
I don’t hate down syndrome people, and I don’t support them being euthanized. I merely do not want to force women to give birth to down syndrome infants. My mom taught down syndrome kids so I am aware of the difficulties. I could not handle it. I would not want to go through the difficulties of pregnancy and childbirth for it. I do not think poorly of those who do though.
Kate, you are simply missing the point. Nothing promises us a healthy baby at the end of a pregnancy. Likewise, nothing promises us old age or good health. We don’t kill our children if they don’t meet our expectations after birth, nor should we kill them for not meeting our expectations prior to birth.
Please look at the link I posted earlier in this thread. You are advocating the death of real children.
What I am advocating is protecting women from government interference by making them go through nearly a year of pregnancy and give birth to a down syndrome fetus.
Posted by: Kate at May 22, 2009 12:53 PM
———————————
The mindset by Kate and Devo is indeed widespread. But there are a few ‘problems’ with this mentality. The quote from Kate is numbing, because a child, ANY CHILD ONCE BORN BECOMES A ‘BABY’ with all rights. They are no-longer ‘a fetus’ … read: killable.
Also: I too have a genetic condition as all-encompassing as Downs, but that typically is not at all visible at birth and most-often not seen until age 4. Some people do not display symptoms until age 50.
So Devo is it OK that I should seek death (suicide), or that someone else decide to rid society of the burden that I am? have already been told that I insulted (her words) a lady because i believed ‘she could ever be interested in a handicapped person’.
Vannah, thanks for that touching post. It seems dealing with people with disabilities will either bring out the best or the worst in people…the worst, before they’re born, and the best, when they get to know them.
Hey, while we’re at it, how about we eliminate kids with autism, spina bifida, learning disabilities, hearing problems, vision problems, dwarfism, kids missing an arm or a leg, etc. I mean, they’re all “burdens on society,” aren’t they?
What kind of future could a kid with spina bifida have? http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,519181,00.html
Or a kid with no limbs? http://www.lifewithoutlimbs.org/
Yeah, I guess you’re right. No hope and no future at all. Just burdens. (With really awesome smiles.) :D
John, it seems the woman you spoke to isn’t worth your time. Thankfully, not everyone is so heartless.
Though, as we can read from these boards, there are a lot of heartless individuals.
Why, thank you everyone for your compliments. It’s all very true. Cody is such a nice boy (okay, well, he’s almost an adult now, so he’s a nice young man).
After I literally sobbed for half an hour (I’m not even joking) about some of the comment that I read from people, I found a bottle of apple juice and toasted Della, Daniel, and Cody.
Then something occured to me that I have yet to realize. For the past two weeks I’ve done nothing but complain because I have to cut open a (paper) frog in biology and do some sort of weird, complicated problem in Algebra and I have a ton of homework in history…that there are so many in the world who don’t get a chance at even the slightest education. Unborn children who die, children living in countries plagued by genocide, children battling cancer.
Kate and Devo’s sense of able privilege made me realize that not everyone will be valued and they will not have the opportunity to know value. I shouldn’t be feeling sorry for myself. God is good. Everyone here should make a toast to that (not with wine or anything, especially if you have to drive home- strawberry milk after Daniel would be nice; I wrote my first thesis on this; it’s called Strawberry and the War- odd little title).
Hooray for all things life! The birds, the children, the new sprouts, fish…yay!
To all the pro lifers here, I came across this very important article.
The writer says although Barry says FOCA is “not a priority” for him, pro abortion radicals can and will implement their agenda piecemeal instead. I think she is right.
http://www.aul.org/FOCA_by_stealth
Thank you Vannah. I needed that.
LOVE WINS!! :)
Yeah! Go LOVE! Woot woot!
Kate,
Maybe, just maybe you could handle it. Maybe you could carry your own child to term no matter the outcome or prognosis. Why? Because that child is YOURS! Growing inside you! There is nothing like the love a mother feels for her unborn baby. A fierce, protective mother love that drives you to do whatever it takes to care for a child that depends upon on you.
Life will teach you exactly what you need to know. I have no doubt about that.
What people are posting here about Down’s syndrome is sickening. Thank God for Sarah Palin who supports LIFE and loves her son. He had as much right to be born as any other baby. Yet 90% of these preborn babies are killed because they have something wrong with them. I actually did not know that until Sarah joined the McCain ticket. I remember how glad parents of Down’s children were to have her and they brought many of those kids to her rallies. It was great to see.
Destroying helpless babies because they have Down’s or some other problem is no better than what the Nazis were doing.
I attempted to post a comment on your blog, Carla. It was so confusing though, and, being the technologically impaired individual that I am, I couldn’t figure out how to do it. :(.
And, if you don’t mind, Joanne, I would like to add a comment onto your post. Thank God for strong women, thank God for women who find the courage to call themselves strong, and thank God for people who are disabled, tall, short, funny, smart, of African descent, of Asian descent, Hispanics, Anglos, and everyone in between. :D
Beautifully said Vanna! Speaking of strong women, besides Sarah Palin how about Liz Cheney? I love her! She would make a wonderful Secretary of State. And unlike the current one, would not be promoting abortion to the world.
It’s not just their suffering that I’m looking at here–Down Syndrome is a burden on society itself.
Posted by: Devo at May 22, 2009 1:20 PM
My goodness that statement is pathetic. Your education is a burden on society. Are you willing to give it up?
Kate and Devo’s sense of able privilege made me realize that not everyone will be valued and they will not have the opportunity to know value.
Posted by: Vannah at May 22, 2009 3:07 PM
Don’t worry Vannah. I don’t think anyone would be of value in Kate or Devo’s estimation. Those who so carelessly de-value life can find nothing worthy in anyone, even themselves.
Kristen,
You are presumtuous and simplistic. You don’t know me or the people who are important to me. You assume that because I could not raise a down syndrome child I find everyone else of little worth. I’ve seen the struggles of families with down syndrome. It’s not comparable to having a child of the gender you weren’t hoping for or a relative with a missing limb. My mother has MS, and I certainly love her as much now. What she has isn’t who she is. If one of my children had diabetes I would do everything I could to get them the care they needed and love them more than ever. If you could see outside of your black and white lense you would know a person’s opinion in one area doesn’t define who they are in other areas.
John, it seems the woman you spoke to isn’t worth your time. Thankfully, not everyone is so heartless.
Though, as we can read from these boards, there are a lot of heartless individuals.
Posted by: Kel at May 22, 2009 2:55 PM
———————————————
Kel,
I do not think you are correct …………… WE ALL deserve to be delerious [filled] with joy that is so complete that there is no room left over for hatred. Mother Teresa spoke often about judgment vs love.
She said we (and all humans) are called to love – not judge. When we judge, no room is left for love … [being human].
Is it better that my executioners be exposed to my ‘light’ and not have me wallow in their emptiness (by expressing an aloofness that is bitter)?
Isn’t it strange that so many PC come here & spend time here? Should we not ‘love the hell-out-of-them’? If they don’t like ALL THAT ABUSE, I’m sure they’ll find it on PC sites.
John, you have a really great outlook for someone who has clearly been hurt. What the woman said was callous and cold. It’s great that you have chosen not to be bitter. :)
I’ve seen the struggles of families with down syndrome. It’s not comparable to having a child of the gender you weren’t hoping for or a relative with a missing limb. My mother has MS, and I certainly love her as much now. What she has isn’t who she is. If one of my children had diabetes I would do everything I could to get them the care they needed and love them more than ever.
Posted by: Kate at May 22, 2009 4:07 PM
****************************************
That’s right. Those disabilities are things that people did not bring upon themselves and cannot help. DS children cannot help the fact that they have genetic abnormalities. Does that make them any less valuable than children with other diseases or disabilities?
I’ve worked with DS children as well. I’ve seen the joy in their faces as they learn new things. I’ve seen them interact with other children and with parents. I’ve seen that they are as stubborn and as loving as any kid can be. :) They’re amazing individuals, and we can learn from them, just as they can learn from us.
They’re beautiful. Just look at them. http://www.parenting.com/article/Baby/Health/A-Special-Joy-Babies-With-Down-Syndrome-Galleries
But is there not a difference between seeing other people struggle and feeling it fine to slaughter another human being because of it? Everyone struggles. But that does not give women to power to do what no one else is allowed to do. Everyone deserves equality and a chance. Not just rejection.
What she has isn’t who she is.
If only people would apply that same criteria to the unborn!
In case my vid link got lost in the debate, here it is again. This young man’s employer doesn’t seem to think his DS is a burden!
Johnny the Bagger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xgq1rSR38zg
Thanks for the photo gallery link, Kel. Those little ones have contagious smiles.
Posted by: reality at May 22, 2009 11:08 AM
“xppc, I am 100% correct, and you are 100% delusional.”
——————————————————
Whoops!
That is a contradictory statement, Reality.
No one is 100% correct and though xppc may be wrong occasionally, judging from the lucidity of her posts, she is not ‘delusional’.
Would you care to rescend your ‘hypebole’ and re-state your post in terms that are consistent with the ‘truth’.
Or should we give your pronouncements the same careful analysis we always do and reach the same conclusion we so often, but not always, do?
yor bro ken
I don’t hate people with down syndrome. I don’t want to mandate abortion for all down syndrome pregnancies. I personally could not raise one. My mother teaches remedial reading, so I know all about the difficulties. I just don’t want the government to force to go through pregnancy and childbirth to have a down syndrome fetus.
Posted by: Kate at May 22, 2009 1:15 PM
Kate,
Women have gone through pregnancy to give birth to millions of Down Syndrome children who were brought into this world into loving families. Just because technology allows us to see into the womb does not mean these babies should be killed.
What if they could determine that babies had a childhood cancer gene. Should they be aborted so the mother wouldn’t have to carry them through pregnancy, love them, nurture them only to have to see them go through pain and burden society with their illness and to die?
Homosexuals are determined to prove that homosexuality is ‘genetic’.
So far none of the research supports their contention.
If a genetic marker for homosexuality is discovered (and that is a very big ‘if’) then look for intense lobbying from the homosexual community to ban testing to determine if prenatal humans carry the marker.
Also look for intense lobby on a ban on abortions used to eliminate human fetuses who might carry the gene for homosexuality.
I say choose life for all of them and let God work out the details.
Better a live dog than a dead lion. A live dog still has hope.
yor bro ken
Kate and Devo,
All I can say is you are completely ignorant about Down syndrome, and I pity you. Having a child with Down syndrome is a complete blessing. But this is not something I would ever expect you to understand. It is attitudes like yours that make me fight even harder for the unborn.
I’ve seen the struggles of families with down syndrome. It’s not comparable to having a child of the gender you weren’t hoping for or a relative with a missing limb. My mother has MS, and I certainly love her as much now. What she has isn’t who she is.
yes kate but if you can see this for some people why not others.
The unborn are human beings too. Your mother was an unborn baby at some point in the past. If an unborn baby potential for MS had been detected in utero would you advocate abortion?
People “suffer” as you put it, with DS. But all of life is filled with suffering Kate. Ever get through a day without some kind of physical suffering? A sore back, a sore throat, a cold, an infected finger, a headache? Or maybe emotional suffering?
Your racism, and bigotry Angle is showing. HOw many WASP men want a BOY to carry on the family name, hurl the ole pigskin, shoot a few rounds, etc. with. And they may not be satisfied until wifey produces the babe with the right genitals. Why, it’s as American as apple pie to pine for a JR.
Posted by: non-ethnocentrist at May 22, 2009 5:38 PM
unfortunately, ne, women have no say in the sex of their children.
It’s not a North American “thing” to favor a specific sex.
I most definitely would NOT advocate abortion of fetuses with the potential of developing MS. It’s not remotely comparable to Down Syndrome. MS is just one aspect of my mom’s life. It sucks, and I wish it would go away, but it doesn’t erase everything else about her. Like people with cancer or diabetes, she has been able to do most of the things everyone does. She’s had a productive career, got married, had kids, etc.. The amount of suffering she’s endured hardly means her life isn’t worth living. We all have some medical problems we have to deal with in life. I’m not for elimating anyone who might have some type of illness.
Please pray for Jack and his family. He was born with hydrocephaly and other complications. He will be going home with infant hospice this weekend and will pass away surrounded by friends and family who love him dearly. Thank you.
Fed Up,
Johnny the Bagger is real. Loved it! :)
Carla,
Jack and his family will be in my prayers.
Posted by: Kate at May 22, 2009 6:18 PM
I’ll be praying for little Jack and family too.
Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
They’re beautiful. Just look at them. http://www.parenting.com/article/Baby/Health/A-Special-Joy-Babies-With-Down-Syndrome-Galleries
Posted by: Kel at May 22, 2009 4:20 PM
What beautiful children! Thanks for posting that.
Kel, thank you! Beautiful children and moms!
“Also: I too have a genetic condition as all-encompassing as Downs, but that typically is not at all visible at birth and most-often not seen until age 4. Some people do not display symptoms until age 50.”
John, you do realize how this analogy of yours falls apart.
No person with Downs is asymptomatic until 50 – or even 4 – how all encompassing can it be if you can conceivably live more than 1/2 your life and not experience sympoms – COMPARISON FAIL, John.
Posted by: check please at May 22, 2009 6:01 PM
———————————-
Hi der,
The discussion was about genetic defects (Downs being THE most visible), and the use of genetic screening as a determining factor in the prognostication of ‘poor’ outcome … or,was this understanding wrong.
It was not meant as any kind of analogy, but as a kind of witness to a life marked with characteristics about my disability, which I and many others share. I used to think that ‘blacks are told to sit-at-the-back-of-the-bus’; we (visibly-disabled) are not even allowed on the bus (to live).
I have a rare genetic disorder called Friedreich’s Ataxia. It is very much like the worst possible ms. Unlike Downs though, the symptoms of my disorder start to appear some years after birth. There are numerous differences between FA and Downs …. including lifespan. So using DNA testing to mark someone for death is problematic.
[Especially because many GENETIC diseases can be cured now. A researcher in Chicago cured a girl who had an anomaly so severe that she was slated to die before, or shortly after birth. In utero, she was given adult bone-marrow cells … to ‘teach’ her cells how to function properly.] At age-5yrs (she was the 1st worldwide to live past 2yrs). The researcher called her ‘cured’.
Never heard of it, eh? Is genetic testing a infallible prediction of doom? Why? Are you going to do anything about it?
CheckPlease/really pro-choice/non-ethnocentrist/professor/casper/remember’/friend,
Please pick a name and stick with it.
I’m adding a new section to my diary. About human rights. I just have a quick question to ask of everyone:
If you find any movies, pamphlets, songs, et cetera- anything- that refers to unborn children as babies instead of potential humans, would you tell me about them? I aim to prove that it is only rhetoric to call them “potential.”
I already found one called Maria Full of Grace; it’s a beautiful movie about a seventeen-year-old girl living in the poorest parts of Colombia; she finds herself pregnant and desperate to leave her shattered world behind. So she takes up a job as a drug mule, but, among many reasons, she decides to quit so that the baby is safe and healthy.
Please, anyone, write about it here so I can compile a list? If I find anything, I’ll give it to you, too! Thanks!
This is stupid. How do you even enforce a ban like this? If a woman wants a “sex-selection” abortion but it’s not legal all she has to do is give some other novel reason for seeking her abortion, no change of [real] motive required.
Posted by: Devo at May 22, 2009 10:11 AM
___________________________
Yes,
You pro-aborts will go to any lengths to kill a baby including breaking the law.
And how you all spout off whenever it’s convenient at how abortion is not murder because it’s legal.
Give me a break.
Your comment is more reason why we pro-lifers must work ever harder and be willing to do whatever it takes to stop the killing.
3,000 more kids died today, 15,000 since Barack Obama Notre Dame’s speech. This abortion holocaust is incalculable.
John:
How are you my friend?
Everyone:
Barack Obama gave the commencement speech at Arizona State a few weeks ago, John McCain’s territory and today BO does the same at the US Naval Academy where McCain’s son was graduating.
Does anyone see this as odd? It just gives you a peak into this narciccist’s mind and how freaking vindicitive he is. He really likes to rub people’s face in it. That’s what he did at Notre Dame.
I’m telling you, Obama is a psycho because of what his father did to him. We should all be terrified of this guy.
Jill, please place an abortion death counter on your web site. Every 28.8 seconds another child is murdered. You can do one from 1973 and one from Sunday’s Obama speech at Nore Dame.
Has anyone studied Obama’s eyes? They are dead!
Obama is indeed a psycho!
Agree with everything you said about Barry HisMan.
Heather…. did you see this link I posted earlier? Every pro life person needs to read it!
http://www.aul.org/FOCA_by_stealth
Oh and for those sick of The Communist News Network, MSDNC, and the other Barry networks you will enjoy Newsbusters.
http://newsbusters.org/
Joanne, Thank you so much. Yes. It’s a hit on religion for sure!! Why do libs always have to resort to cursing in their articles? They are indeed threatened by one who is much higher than they. GOD himself! Actually Joanne, I call it MSLSD…take your pick:]
Obama and that football game…unreal!!
As a person with a life long disability, with a husband who was born blind, and a 7 year old grandson who has autism, I am sadly disheartened that even on a supposedly pro-life blog, some of you think it’s morally OK to abort a child who may have Down syndrome or another disability. Here’s a news flash for all of you. . .We who live with disabilities do not want to be ABORTED, cured or fixed. We have good quality of life even though most of you obviously in your myopic view can’t comprehend this. The recent Newsweek article, “Erasing Autism,” caused Ari Ne’eman, a young man with Asperger’s to receive death threats for saying he doesn’t want those on the spectrum to be aborted or cured. It is hypocritical for those of you who say no to abortion unless the fetus is to be disabled to even claim you are pro-lie. It is these attitudes that give rise to “disabledocide,” a word I coined to describe the killing of the disabled because we are burdens to parents, society, or as the Nazi’s called us–Useless eaters. Those of you with these attitudes are very dangerous. May God forgive you for your hypocrisy.
Valerie,
I don’t believe any of the people advocating for killing those with disabilities are pro life. A prolife blog attracts many who do not believe all life has value, especially the unborn.
Heather…… MSLSD is perfect! Even better than MSDNC! Thanks for that.
Valerie,
Unfortunately we have a few pro abortion people like “bystander” and “reality” who have nothing better to do than call us “right wing extremists” “taliban” and other such names. And they have the gall to say we are the haters.
A few others like Hal are at least civil to others. But as Carla says, not everyone who posts here is pro life.
there is wide support for abortions for severe defects such as Down Syndrome and Trisomy 18. Posted by: Kate at May 22, 2009 11:48 AM
Then there are parents like these, whose witness to life speaks so much louder than the voices of death on this thread.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th6Njr-qkq0
I love Eliot.
Fed Up,
Thanks for posting Eliot’s story. WOW.
* * * *
HisMan,
I like your abortion death-counter idea. It would be hard to ignore.
Devo: “Of all the reasons for getting an abortion, preventing Down Syndrome and other defects makes the most sense.”
An abortion doesn’t “prevent” Down Syndrome; it merely ends the life of the person who has it.
Valerie Brew-Parish:
For the record I do not support the abortion of anyone, period, under any circumstance. We are all made in God’s image and likeness, from the least to the greatest. I figure God knows what He’s doing in allowing a conception and no human has the right to murder the intent of His will. You will find that the vast majority of pro-deathers on this site do not believe in God. It’s no surprise since their father is Satan himself.
God has obviously chosen you and your family for great things. In fact, the least on this earth will reign as the greatest in Heaven. God Bless You for standing firm under very severe trial. You have all of my love, respect and admiration.
Also, there are no pro-lifers on this site that would advocate killing any unborn child.
Hal had his first two children murdered before they were born and is a very confused man. He now has two daughters and is very proud that they are pro-aborts as well. He is very sarcastic and cunning.
Reality and Bystander are liars and filled with pure hatred for anyone that they consider pro-life. Be ready to get blasted, demeaned, devalued and slandered if you post anything against their demonic thinking. It’s the pro-death way. Devo is another one.
Please comment often, we need your perspective.
PS:
That’s really ridiculous. Of all the reasons for getting an abortion, preventing Down Syndrome and other defects makes the most sense.
Posted by: Devo at May 22, 2009 11:33 AM
——————————-
Devo, you’re a freaking Nazi:
Your Down Syndrome comment was so base, so abysmal, so offensive, I can’t believe that any human being could ever type those words let alone believe them as truth. You are one sick puppy and I think what you wrie should be included in the upcoming hate speech legislation.
John McDonnell,
You go, guy, for speaking out on this blog. And you make some really great points.
My youngest brother Tad had Duchenne MD and he remains the #1 pro-life inspiration in my life. I worked the MDA camps for years and remember how some of the teenagers spoke about genetic testing, and how they knew fetuses ‘young ones’ were being aborted only because they had MD. What a chilling realization.
It is a tragically warped mindset sees killing people with a disease as curing the disease. Thank God my pulmonologist hasn’t recommended that for treating my asthma!
If people were more concerned about finding a real CURE for the diseases we all suffer, instead of seeing abortion as a cure and pushing it on women, maybe my brother Tad would have been offered a cure in time.
When fetal death is an option, where is the incentive to work for cures for some of these diseases?
You sound like an interesting, compassionate man. Thank God you are around and making such a contribution. Please forgive the heartlessness of some people (trolls or otherwise) commenting on this blog. Their eugenic beliefs are a true embarrassment.
Thanks, Valerie!!
I truly value your perspective, after reading some of your
marvelous editorials about living with disabilities in the
Chicago Tribune.
Oh my, is it possible a disabled person can write for a
nationally recognized media outlet?
I guess that wouldn’t be possible if your mother decided
you were going to be a “burden” on society!
An abortion doesn’t “prevent” Down Syndrome; it merely ends the life of the person who has it.
Posted by: bmmg39 at May 22, 2009 10:37 PM
a very good point.
This is often one of the ways proaborts deceive others through misleading rhetoric.
This is why I asked Kate if she knew what preimplantation genetic diagnosis was.
By the time PGD is undertaken, a human person already exists. So to “screen” for genetic diseases merely means that one is destroying very very young human beings – persons at a very early stage in their human development.
The disease is not being eliminated, only the person.
Really what we have going on in society today is a “hidden” eugenics program entirely on par with the Nazi’s but much greater in scope. It is hidden because the killing isn’t done in ghettos and gas chambers. It is done in the womb and in petri dishes. It rears its ugly head only when the baby survives an abortion and then we have to kill it in broad daylight.
Posted by: Devo at May 22, 2009 1:20 PM
“It’s not just their suffering that I’m looking at here–Down Syndrome is a burden on society itself.”
——————————————————
Devo,
Is that short for ‘devo-lved’?
I have never been a proponent of evolution, because I have never seen any measureable evidence among the living.
But you’re short sighted ‘opinions’ are evidence of ‘devolution’ among the living.
For example: “It’s not just their suffering [people with Downs Syndrome] that I’m looking at here–Down Syndrome is a burden on society itself.”
Devo,
I know this may be difficult, even painful for you, but extrapolate your attitude till it includes you in the the category of ‘burden on society’ by reaon of age, infirmity, changing demographics.
Someday, aboriginal immigrants from Australia, may become the majority in the USA and you being a non-aboriginal will become a burden to them.
They may become weary of suffering the burden of someone like you, and because they are the majority and control congress, the executive branch and the judicial branch of government, they can ‘re-define’ you out of their society, like the English did to them when the Brits ruled Australia.
yor bro ken
PGD does not involve killing embryos. It merely screens the embryos before deciding which ones to transfer into the uterus. After that, the remaining embryos could be discarded, stored, or adopted by others. Would you support PGD if trisomy 21 embryos were made available for adoption by those who didn’t want to give birth to them? I don’t want to have a down syndrome child, but if someone else wants to carry my DS embryos to term I couldn’t care less.
Forgive me if this has been covered (I just skimmed the many above comments), but the way I see it, this could pose a direct challenge to Roe v. Wade. The wording of the definition of “unborn child” in the OK HB 1595 is as follows:
“‘Unborn child’ means the unborn offspring of human beings from the moment of conception, through pregnancy, and until live birth including the human conceptus, zygote, morula, blastocyst, embryo and fetus.”
Now, logically, this definition sets in law a seamless interpretation of/argument for personhood. The 9-month-old “fetus” is no different than the “conceptus”. If the “fetus” can be protected at any point in the pregnancy, than so too must be the “conceptus, etc.” for they have now all been defined as the “unborn child”. Any attempt at dividing abortion restrictions into trimesters is inconsistent.
Kate you’re either liar or really ignorant. You say “PGD does not involve killing embryos” False!
The embryos that are “discarded” are killed.
PGD is the screening process. Discarding the embryos is a different procedure. What you do with the embryos after PGD is a different issue. Like I said, people who don’t want to carry a down syndrome embryos to term can make the DS embryos available for adoption.
Kristen,
You are presumtuous and simplistic. You don’t know me or the people who are important to me. You assume that because I could not raise a down syndrome child I find everyone else of little worth. I’ve seen the struggles of families with down syndrome. It’s not comparable to having a child of the gender you weren’t hoping for or a relative with a missing limb. My mother has MS, and I certainly love her as much now. What she has isn’t who she is. If one of my children had diabetes I would do everything I could to get them the care they needed and love them more than ever. If you could see outside of your black and white lense you would know a person’s opinion in one area doesn’t define who they are in other areas.
Posted by: Kate at May 22, 2009 4:07 PM
Oh contraire! Your statements regarding Down syndrome prove my point. Your mother teaches remedial reading so you “know all about the difficulties.” Please! My husband is a teacher and 99% of kids in remedial programs have no physical handicap and most are not even considered mentally incapacitated in any way.
I also know people with Downs Syndrome and, as others have said here, their families consider them a complete blessing. My niece is severely mentally handicapped and I am her very proud aunt who can see the value she brings to our family.
Why would you do everything you could for your child with diabetes yet would kill your child with DS? It seems YOU are the one with the black and white lenses. You would help your child with this issue but kill it for that one. It is pathetic in every way that a parent would feel as you do.
Posted by: Valerie Brew-Parrish at May 22, 2009 9:28 PM
I couldn’t agree more! I used to work with deaf people and they hated that people would assume they would want a cochlear implant. They felt (as did I) there was nothing wrong with them. I even knew one who was forced by her parents to get one but, as soon as she could, got it removed.
There is nothing to “fix” in these people and it is the ignorance of others that prevents them from seeing beyond the perceived disability.
Just like Cancer, MS, etc. Diabetes is what you have not who you are! Diabetes is just one aspect of that person’s life. It certainly does not over shadow everything positive about the person or their life. They are still parents, spouses, doctors, teachers etc! It is not comparable to Down Syndrome.
I could not raise a child who would forever be a child in an adults body. I’ve met people with down syndrome. My grandmother’s friend had a baby with down’s, and it ruined her life. Not all stories are happy. Those are just the only ones told in public. I don’t have a problem with them. I just could not raise one.
Fine, Kate. Though the entire point of PGD is to seek and destroy any embryos with the undesired trait. The process itself is only as evil as people make it, which is quite evil indeed.
Also, I take great exception with your discription of people with Down Syndrome. Regardless, even if the disorder were as horrific as you seem to believe, it dose not give you or anyone else the right to kill these people.
Posted by: Kate at May 23, 2009 1:39 PM
Funny, I’ve never met anyone who IS Downs Syndrome. I’ve only met people who HAVE Downs, just like cancer, MS, etc. Your logic is faulty.
And I’d say your grandmother’s friend, who had her life “ruined,” was not a person who would have had a happy life regardless. After all, people tend to “seek” happiness when happiness is actually a choice. No one can “ruin” your life but you and it sounds like she did a good job of that.
Joanne 10:24am
I’m sorry to say I agree as well. No woman has to give her real reasons for having an abortion, much less sign any sworn statements. She can simply go get an abortion. Most women I have encountered know the gender of their unborn baby or can find out easily enough.
“I could not raise a child who would forever be a child in an adults body.”
I’m wondering how you would feel if you were all alone at age 50,60, and had aborted your baby many years ago due to a DS diagnosis. Wouldn’t you miss having your “forever child” around for love and companionship? I think I would have regrets if I were in that situation.
(Sorry if someone has brought this up already, I haven’t read all comments.)
I plan on having several children, so I would hope to even have grandchildren at that point.
As for cancer being the same as down syndrome, that is nonsense. People with cancer are just like us. They are us. The only difference is they have a disease they have to fight(and hopefully cure).
“I plan on having several children, so I would hope to even have grandchildren at that point.”
Do you have a guarantee from God that you will have “several children”? Have you heard the saying “If you want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans”? What if your daughter or daughter in law has abortions and no children?
And, Kate, whether you find yourself superior or not, people with Down Syndrome are just like us, too. Exactly. Like. Us. What makes them so different from your or me? Nothing. They are the same as us.
Just like Cancer, MS, etc. Diabetes is what you have not who you are! Diabetes is just one aspect of that person’s life. It certainly does not over shadow everything positive about the person or their life. They are still parents, spouses, doctors, teachers etc! It is not comparable to Down Syndrome.
I could not raise a child who would forever be a child in an adults body. I’ve met people with down syndrome. My grandmother’s friend had a baby with down’s, and it ruined her life. Not all stories are happy. Those are just the only ones told in public. I don’t have a problem with them. I just could not raise one.
Posted by: Kate at May 23, 2009 1:39 PM
_____________________________
A very self-centered comment.
Happiness does not come with just the right circumstances, it comes from learning how to deal with circumstances no matter what.
It is no wonder so many adult-children are pro-aborts, always seeing favorable circumstances as that which is necessary to make them happy. Give me a sucker or I’ll pout until I get one. Give me my way.
After all, doesn’t this mindset set in motion the very justification for abortion? Kill the baby, change the circumstance, then I’ll be happy.
When it should be: “I accept this challenge and will do whatever it takes to glorify God and be joyful in trial and tribulation”.
As Paul said, “godliness with contentment is great gain”.
As for cancer being the same as down syndrome, that is nonsense. People with cancer are just like us. They are us. The only difference is they have a disease they have to fight(and hopefully cure).
Posted by: Kate at May 23, 2009 8:31 PM
And, Kate, whether you find yourself superior or not, people with Down Syndrome are just like us, too. Exactly. Like. Us. What makes them so different from your or me? Nothing. They are the same as us.
Posted by: Vannah at May 23, 2009 9:08 PM
BRAVO Vannah! It is sickening to me the comments Kate has made. According to her reasoning what is to stop us from killing a teen or adult that has been in an accident and become brain damaged? People could say that they would be a child in an adult body. Should we “abort” them because of their disability? Pathetic, just pathetic!
Devo, clearly you lack a moral compass. Only someone with no morals can take an “ends justify the means” view on any issue.
No one can deny that my nephew Conor costs taxpayers of his home town more than a “normal” child. He has to have an aide with him every second that he is in school.However it is immoral, if not evil, to believe it is “correct” to kill him to “avoid the burden.”
Here is a short video of 6 year old Conor bowling. No one can deny the joy he brings his sister.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAQNEtVp2oM
I have no doubt the Obama will attempt to push mandatory genetic screening of babies and mandatory death to those deemed defective and a “burden” to society. “only” 90% of babies found to have down syndrome are killed. For you, that is not enough. For Obama that is not enough. Better to spend the taxpayer money on babies that will grow up to be tax payers not tax takers?
By the way, Conor started learning American Sign Language when he was two years only.
No they are not just like us. Unlike cancer Down Syndrome is all encompassing. It is the very essence of who they are. No amount of chemo therapy can cure them of down syndrome. It is who they are. It affects their intelligence, personality, and lifestyle. People who suffer from cancer are fathers, wives, doctors, lawyers. The cancer is one aspect of their lives. It’s very hard to even have an intelligent conversation with DS person. My grandmother’s friend couldn’t even understand her daughter. Mu grandmother would say that it would find if she brought, but her friend needed a break. It killed her that she didn’t have a daughter who would grow up and follow her career dreams and have family like her sons did.
from Kristen “BRAVO Vannah! It is sickening to me the comments Kate has made. According to her reasoning what is to stop us from killing a teen or adult that has been in an accident and become brain damaged? ”
Actually, BO is addressing this too. As part of his comprehensive health care reform and cost reduction he has ordered higher CAFEs for automobile makers. This means a mandate for smaller, lighter, less safe cars (that don’t fit the average family). This will increase fatality ratios in auto accidents and thus decrease medical treatment costs. A crash fatality is cheap. A broken leg is expensive.
I could not raise a child who would forever be a child in an adults body.
Posted by: Kate at May 23, 2009 1:39 PM
BTW Kate…
You keep saying you “could not” raise a child with DS. But really you “would not.” There is a big difference. Anyone CAN raise a child with DS, but you are selfish and would not “inconvenience” yourself to do so.
Are there any selfless individuals here who would carry the DS embryos I chose not to transfer?
All of you advocating the murder of children you deem less than perfect are horrible. Today a sweet, beautiful little girl passed away in her mother’s arms. Little Faith was born with anacephaly and would never be “normal.”
Yet her mother loved her, and cared for her and cherished every second she had with her daughter. You people advocate that such children are killed because you are too selfish to care for an innocent child. I am disgusted.
I am sobbing for Myah because she has lost her daughter. I am also sobbing for humanity for being so completely cold and dead.
God has already shown his mercy with Faith, who know lives with Him for eternity. I pray that He will be merciful to our horrific world and that somehow we will turn from our sins twoards Him.
Wow, Kate.
The lack of love toward your fellow human beings with DS in your comments is really disturbing. What is so repelling for you about someone with impaired mental development? No, they are not ‘like us’. Does that mean these people shouldn’t live?
At any rate, I wouldn’t be afraid of this. Even if you can’t raise a child with DS because of your own limitations, you might know that there are people on waiting lists to adopt, love and care for children who have various diseases and disabilities.
If you aren’t willing to try and overcome your feelings, ok. You could still give a fetus/ little one a chance at a life with people able to love him or her.
That would be more in keeping with the way you care for people with diseases, like your Mom. You probably know that in some countries, people with MS, especially women, don’t stand much of a chance. Guess its all in how much you choose to love someone, and I’m glad your Mom has you.
Oh Lauren, thanks for that update–however sad–on Faith and Myah. Heaven has another precious little soul. God bless Myah for the beautiful witness she gave to life and the selflessness of motherhood. Too many parents have lost sight of the fact that parenthood is about nurturing a child. It’s not about what the child can achieve or which of our expectations it can/can’t meet.
Posted by: Kate at May 23, 2009 10:53 PM
I am against IVF because of that EXACT reason! Still I would rather carry the child than have you destroy it.
But do the other embryos a favor and don’t transfer them either. It’s obvious you haven’t gotten over your own childish selfishness to deal with theirs when the time comes.
So you’re against IVF because it gives people the option of not transfering DS embryos….even when they can be adopted?
You’re so onbsessed with forcing other people to have DS kids while ignoring all dificulties. You’re so reliant on hasty judgements of people you don’t know that I’m the childish one…interesting.
Well, I will transfer all the healthy embryos anyway and try to raise wonderful children. I can’t wait! I’ll send the DS embryos to whoever want them. Nothing is killed.
Kate: “You assume that because I could not raise a down syndrome child I find everyone else of little worth…If you could see outside of your black and white lense [sic] you would know a person’s opinion in one area doesn’t define who they are in other areas.”
They have a black-and-white lens on this issue because DEATH is black and white. If you choose to kill your children because they have Down Syndrome, there’s not a helluva lot of gray area there.
Kate, do you think that your own health will be perfect forever? It won’t be. You had better hope that someone doesn’t discard you one day when you become ill, just as you wish to discard the unborn.
No they are not just like us. Unlike cancer Down Syndrome is all encompassing. It is the very essence of who they are. No amount of chemo therapy can cure them of down syndrome. It is who they are. It affects their intelligence, personality, and lifestyle. People who suffer from cancer are fathers, wives, doctors, lawyers. The cancer is one aspect of their lives. It’s very hard to even have an intelligent conversation with DS person. My grandmother’s friend couldn’t even understand her daughter. Mu grandmother would say that it would find if she brought, but her friend needed a break. It killed her that she didn’t have a daughter who would grow up and follow her career dreams and have family like her sons did.
Posted by: Kate at May 23, 2009 10:21 PM
I have read many of your comments here Kate and I find them very very disturbing.
I think your above comment sums up many generalizations you’ve made and a very unsettling eugenic attitude that you have towards persons with disabilities.
First off, there are many many DS children that CAN be understood in conversation. I know because I meet DS people all the time in my line of work. They are friendly lovable people.
There is one DS adult whom I’ve known for many years and who cannot communicate well and has DS rather severely. Yes, caring for this man is a challenging task for his parents. But it is this attitude of respect for the dignity of this human person that is so important. A that’s the difference isn’t it – it’s about recognizing the dignity of people who are NOT like us. Do you consider people with DS persons?
It killed your grandmother’s friend that her daughter couldn’t fulfill HER dreams? Excuse me? Our children have to live their lives as they choose, not as we choose. We don’t have children to fulfill our dreams.
You need to consider the fact that your grandmother’s friend may not have received the kind of support that is available today for parents of DS children. At one time these children were isolated and ostracized. This is not the case anymore. I wonder what Chris Burke of Life Goes On would think of you? :(
Kate 1:39PM
What about the normal healthy child who becomes physically or mentally disabled as the result of accident or illness.
Thanks to drunk drivers, one teenage girl spent 11 years in a nursing home because of severe brain damage before she died, and another young woman near us is totally paralyzed.
What do parents do under these circumstance? Do they have a right to dispose of their children? Is their devastation and heartbreak any less? A DS person can function considerable better than either of these young women.
There are absolutely no guarantees concerning our children.
Kate you can spread all of the intolerance that you please. I cannot stop you. But I can fight the law so that it can stop you from hurting anyone. That’s a big jump in my opinion.
And those with Down Syndrome or any disability are more than what you say that they are. They are students, parents, hard workers, friends, football fans.
But in the end I have realized that you cannot convince someone who cares little for the rights of others different from herself that all people are equal. I’m sorry. I hope that someday you find love, and I hope that someday you have the opportunity to know what it means to be cared about despite the fact that that someone is different from yourself. I really do.
So you’re against IVF because it gives people the option of not transfering DS embryos….even when they can be adopted?
You’re so onbsessed with forcing other people to have DS kids while ignoring all dificulties. You’re so reliant on hasty judgements of people you don’t know that I’m the childish one…interesting.
Well, I will transfer all the healthy embryos anyway and try to raise wonderful children. I can’t wait! I’ll send the DS embryos to whoever want them. Nothing is killed.
Posted by: Kate at May 23, 2009 11:38 PM
Oh please. I’m against IVF for several reasons, not the least of which is destroying unused/unwanted embryos. But I won’t go into it b/c it would be useless to discuss it with you.
I’m not obsessed with “forcing” anyone to have DS kids. I guess I am “obsessed” with getting people to take responsibility for the children they create, and act like mature human beings by realizing that life isn’t all about ME, ME, ME. Apparently a foreign concept to you.
Actually, BO is addressing this too. As part of his comprehensive health care reform and cost reduction he has ordered higher CAFEs for automobile makers. This means a mandate for smaller, lighter, less safe cars (that don’t fit the average family). This will increase fatality ratios in auto accidents and thus decrease medical treatment costs. A crash fatality is cheap. A broken leg is expensive.
Posted by: Mark at May 23, 2009 10:22 PM
I have read about this. I have to drive a virtual tank to drive all 8 of us around and it’s very scary to me to see the tiny cars today. If, God forbid, any of those cars runs a red light and crashes into me, my van would probably crush them.
Kates comments remind me of an Early Star Trek episode.
Cap’n Kirk and the gang encounter an alien species that look very human except for the fact that they are black on the left side and white on the right.
Then they encounter another alien who is black on the right and white on the left.
The first aliens want to kill the second alien and Kirk tries to reason with them by pointing out the glaring similarities between them.
The first aliens are offended and strenously object to the comparison. They say the second alien is nothing like us. Can’t you see he is white on the left?
Bigotry is bigotry no matter where you find it.
yor bro ken
Question of the day?
How many different bathrooms do the Democrats have to provide to accomodate their diverse constituency?
Maybe they take the utililarian, pragmatic approach and just provide
one for the common and un-common folk
and
one for the elites.
Some liberals are more equal than others.
yor bro ken
Posted by: kbhvac at May 24, 2009 3:08 PM
Live long and prosper.
HiMan,
After all, doesn’t this mindset set in motion the very justification for abortion? Kill the baby, change the circumstance, then I’ll be happy.
When it should be: “I accept this challenge and will do whatever it takes to glorify God and be joyful in trial and tribulation”.
Right on.
* * *
Kate,
Your insensitivity to DS is making me crazy. I don’t know if you believe in God, but I believe God doesn’t give any of us more than we can handle. We must trust in Him that good will come from our own trials even when we can’t imagine how that could be true.
Did you consider my post @ 8:45? Here it is again:
Do you have a guarantee from God that you will have “several children”? Have you heard the saying “If you want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans”? What if your daughter or daughter in law has abortions and no children?
HiMan,
After all, doesn’t this mindset set in motion the very justification for abortion? Kill the baby, change the circumstance, then I’ll be happy.
His Man, right. EXCEPT, the exact opposite happens to us when we reject God’s plan for us. The end result is misery.
Oh my heavens…
My 17 year old sister-in-law has Down’s Syndrome. She is the LIGHT of my life. I adore her. She attends a regular high school and is on the swim team. Yes, she requires extra help. So what? My “perfect” 8-years-old-tomorrow daughter also requires extra help because she’s dyslexic. There are no guarantees in life.
My older son has Asperger’s. He is studious, hard-working, brilliant in math and science, kind, loving, and I have NO desire to change him or who he is. Everyone he knows adores him and I expect that he will make great contributions to the world. When he was a toddler, my own mother (who would probably fit in well with the Kate/Devo crowd) told me he was a poster child for birth control. Yes, there were some difficult years… so worth it. So many people told me to “put him away somewhere” and “forget he existed”…. NO WAY. That’s my baby boy (okay, 13 years old, not such a baby!) and he is a true blessing to us and to the world.
My youngest daughter, the one with the unstoppable smile and unquenchable desire to push the boundaries and see what is possible also has Asperger’s. Again, I have no desire to change her.
Why do people think they are guaranteed a perfect, easy life? Come walk through the halls with me where *I* work and tell me how that works… Because honestly, unless you want to stop ALL conception from this moment on, there is no way to prevent difficulties and pain in the lives of children and their families.
Every single day I admit children whose mothers did everything “right”… who have been in “perfect” health… moms who can’t understand why their child is suddenly in the hospital, or worse, in the PICU. (Pediatric Intensive Care Unit)…. who can’t wrap their mind around the sudden collapse of their child….
Who have to deal with a diagnosis that is at best life-changing… and in many cases life-ending. Who have to make decisions about organ and tissue donation for their newborns, or toddlers, or teens. Who have a “perfectly healthy child” one day who, one week later they are choosing a CASKET for…
Kate, do everyone a favor. Finish growing up and accepting the fact that you can’t “make” life be the way you want it to be before creating ANY children. (But yes, I will take and birth and raise your DS children or any others you think aren’t good enough for you.)
I cannot believe how firmly entrenched eugenics has become in the modern mindset.
Elisabeth 7:03PM
What an incredible post, and so true.
A co-worker of mine has seen her only child confined to state prison for several years. He was a normal healthy baby.
Another co-worker is struggling with mental illness in her teenage daughter, the same disorder I lost a daughter to.
A mother not far from me saw her teenage daughter, who had so much promise, brain damaged because of a drunk driver and confined to a nursing home until she died.
Another mother near me has had her daughter totally paralyzed by a drunk driver.
A couple at church struggles with their teenage son’s cancer.
Another mother has had her two young daughters brain damaged by a drunk driver who hit her coming out of her own driveway.
You see so much working in PICU.
There is a saying that life is what happens when we make other plans. Life promises us absolutely nothing and doesn’t owe us a thing. We simply do not have control. We cannot predict. We cannot prevent, and we cannot always cure. We have to cope. Certainly all the above mentioned parents could never anticipate what would happen to their normal, healthy newborns and children. Their anguish is no less.
Janet 5:24PM
How true, “if you want to make God laugh tell Him your plans.
I like another saying, I’m not sure where it originated but its “when the gods want to punish man, they answer their prayers”. Maybe our ancient brethren were onto something.
I also like “be very careful what you wish for, you just might get it.”
Posted by: Elisabeth at May 25, 2009 7:03 PM
It sounds like your older son and my eldest son could be twins. Mine also has Asperger’s and just competed in the Lego Robotics World Tournament in Atlanta after winning the regional and state competitions.
Your mother and my MIL could also be twins since she treated my son horribly when he was younger. Now she’s “so proud” of his accomplishments. I say he was always this way but she was just blind to it. Nothing like jumping on the bandwagon now.
Anyway, I’m glad you see the value of your kids and aren’t like the Kate’s of the world. Congratulations on all of your wonderful children.
Elisabeth I think the problem is that modern secularists see the child as a commodity. Couples pay to adopt, pay to have IVF treatments, pay to have genetic testing etc.
If, in the mind of adults, a child is an object and not a subject (person) than we treat that child like any other object. No one in their right mind would buy a flawed crystal vase. Everyone wants a perfect child.
We have to tools today to emplace a eugenics program completely analogous to the Nazi eugenics in the 1930’s. Because it is hidden, being done in petri dishes and the womb, it is acceptable.
Many of the eugenics ideas popular in America and exported to Germany have never disappeared. They just went underground.
Janet,
I’ve heard your quote “… I believe God doesn’t give any of us more than we can handle.” often! It’s nice-sounding but very wrong. He inflicts more than we can handle all the time. The statement is deceptively one about self reliance and should be phrased as: ‘God gives us nothing that WE(HIM & ME) cannot overcome.’
John,
Oh my gosh, you are sooooo right. Thank you for reminding me of our reliance on Him. I am humbled.
God bless you!