Why pro-aborts think they’re losing
Two interesting pieces in the last several days, “There is no women’s movement,” by Taylor Marsh at the Huffington Post, and “Why pro-choice is losing,” at the Academic OB/GYN blog.
Basically, everything the pro-life movement is doing is coming together to effectively demoralize and defeat pro-aborts – legislation, billboards, protests, and persuasion(which we excel at here!).
Passage of the Stupak Amendment followed by Obama’s executive order codifying the Hyde Amendment apparently inflicted major psychological damage on at-large advocates of baby killing. Wrote Marsh, bitterly (and sloppily):
The last bastion to protecting women’s rights has caved. But not because they don’t have the majority to protect us; but because they don’t feel our full rights are important enough to fight for and they don’t have the will for the battle….
But Mr. Stupak would not have gained so much ground against the freedoms of women if Speaker Pelosi hadn’t sanctioned it, encouraged it and back it….
The women in politics either too old or too lazy to recall the dangers of not having 100% control over your own body. Some of our menopausal matrons simply not up to the task; while young women yawn in ignorance of what’s being dismantled.
None of this would have happened if Planned Parenthood had been doing their job and seen the Stupak health care challenge coming (whoever has given them money should ask for it back.) or if NARAL and NOW hadn’t been rendered to simply squealing at the wind after the deal was done. (Don’t give them another dime when they come calling.)….
OB/GYN is depressed from a more global perspective…
Lately I’ve been troubled by how badly the pro-choice movement has been doing…. Nationwide, abortion is under attack in many states, and in some cases progress is being made to limit access….
Right now, anti-choice is wiping the floor with pro-choice. Pro-choice is always on the defensive, and never on the offensive. Prochoice is tending goal and Prolife is always taking shots. This can only go on so long before one gets in the net, and we’ve been seeing that happen lately….
Here’s the problems as I see it…
There is absolutely nothing to be gained in trying to convince people that abortion is a moral act. The belief that it immoral is based that the fetus is an independent life form, and that it is a person. If one accepts that belief, it is quite logical to then believe that abortion is murder. To someone who believes that abortion is murder, no argument to the contrary will suffice…. While an argument for the morality of abortion is compelling to someone who is pro-choice, it is just meaningless to someone who already is against abortion…. Pro-choice needs to win the hearts of these middle ground people, and arguing morality won’t do that….
The only question that should be addressed is whether or not abortion should be legal…. Pro-choice needs to make sure that everyone in this country can imagine the effects of an abortion ban on women…. Prior to Roe v Wade hospitals had entire wards full of women injured or dying from illegal untrained abortion. This is incredibly compelling, yet Pro-choice gives it a back seat to a pointless argument about morality….
Pro-choice also needs to stop pretending that abortion is not destroying life. Pro-life argues that abortion is murder, and in response we hear from pro-choice is that it is not life, but a potential life. This is not a compelling argument. A fetus, from any scientific point of view, is alive. Claiming that a fetus is not alive is inaccurate, and this somewhat vampiric idea paints Pro-choice in a bad light….
Pro-choice must recognize that abortion is destruction of life, but is still a justified thing….
[Top graphic via The Nation]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
“the dangers of not having 100% control over your own body”
———————————————-
Ahh….there goes that “myth” again…
and
“Why isn’t pro-choice doing the same?”
Because these pro-aborts only care about themselves and quick fixes…Pro-lifers know this is a long battle and are geared up for it…in mind, body and in spirit.
Jesus said “Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, that in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.” (Mt 18:10)
So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:31-32)
Every time there are picketers outside an abortion clinic, pro-choice supporters should have picketers out there peacefully promoting the opposite message.
___________________________________________________
The opposite message???? That you SHOULD kill your child? Go right ahead…see how far you get with THAT message…. what morons!
“Prior to Roe v Wade hospitals had entire wards full of women injured or dying from illegal untrained abortion.”
This is a bold face lie.
I really don’t see the value in picketing crises pregnancy centers.
“Pro-choice needs to win the hearts of these middle ground people, and arguing morality won’t do that….”
I think “winning twisted minds” would be a more doable goal.
“Pro-choice must recognize that abortion is destruction of life, but is still a justified thing. Parallels must be drawn between abortion and other justified destruction of life.”
Right. Because two wrongs make a right in Pro-choice-land.
The reason pro-choicers won’t embrace the “it’s the justified taking of a life” argument is b/c then you have to get into the argument about why killing this life is justified. While you might swing some of the “middle ground” people with the life of the mother and rape justifications, the primary “justification” for the vast majority of abortions is convenience. I think “I’m justified in killing my fetus b/c it’s convenient” would leave a pretty bad taste in most people’s mouths. So they stick with the false but more palatable, “it’s just a clump of tissue” or “whatever it is, we KNOW it’s a woman’s body and right” arguments. Either way, the pro-life side will win in the end b/c we have science and logic on our side.
The last paragraphs of OB/GYN’s piece is MOST telling.
When I was living in a very liberal state, I had the luxury of believing that my position was morally correct and that the opposition was incorrect. When I moved to South Carolina I realized the folly in this position. While I am as Pro-Choice I have ever been, I have met far too many wonderful intelligent caring people who happen to be Pro-Life to continue to believe that their position is fundamentally wrong. Their beliefs are completely logical given the premises they learned as children. The argument that abortion is justified is just as logical based on a different set of premises.
We need to stop fighting about these premises, as such a fight is a religious war. We need to fight with facts, and if needed we need to fight a little dirtier. Always taking the high ground hasn’t been working.
Um, this man needs a lesson in critical thinking. When you have the facts in your corner, you shouldn’t have to to “fight dirty”.
It sounds like he’s coming around, though. There’s always hope. Maybe in a view years he’ll be writing a pro-life blog post. Praying for him.
Well I’m a pro-lifer and I’m also a pacifist. What’re they gonna say to me?? Sure, go picket the pro-life pregnancy centers! LOL go right ahead!
We’ll be handing out free ultrasounds, maternity clothes, baby clothes, bottles, breastpumps, information, and giving them free pregnancy tests inside, while you are outside holding up your lame “my body my choice” signs. And she’s gonna come running to you with open arms saying “Yes yes help I’m so opressed by all this free baby stuff and caring advice!!!” Please!
Yeah, like ANYBODY has 100% control over their body. If people did, my grandpa would be able to hear the baseball game, my grandma would be able to walk the entire length of the living room unaided, my mom wouldn’t have coronary artery disease, my boyfriend’s dad wouldn’t have acne scarring, and my eyesight would be a whole lot better, believe me. The only people I knew with worse eyesight than mine are actually blind.
“Some of our menopausal matrons simply not up to the task; while young women yawn in ignorance of what’s being dismantled.”
Ick, this sentence needed a copy editor. Also, woo hoo for ageism!
Maybe the “menopausal matrons” have realized that they’d rather have grandchildren than unhappy daughters and daughters-in-law who finally decide they’re ready to have a baby at age thirty-eight and find out their eggs have other ideas.
“There is absolutely nothing to be gained in trying to convince people that abortion is a moral act.”
Nope. Although if you try to convince them in German, you might convince them that you’re a Nazi.
“Pro-choice needs to win the hearts of these middle ground people, and arguing morality won’t do that….”
Let the dismemberment of tiny human beings win your heart!
“Claiming that a fetus is not alive is inaccurate, and this somewhat vampiric idea paints Pro-choice in a bad light….”
Nah, vampires can be more pro-life than this bunch. Paging Rosalie Hale…
“Pro-choice must recognize that abortion is destruction of life, but is still a justified thing.”
As long as we’re on fantasy novels, any Harry Potter fans here? Remember Grindelwald and “the greater good”?
“Parallels must be drawn between abortion and other justified destruction of life. It is ironic that the conservatives who are the greatest detractors of abortion are often also the greatest supporters of war, and in so are the greatest supporters of killing. To be a supporter of war and then to claim abortion cannot be justified because it is killing a life is a very bad argument, and the weakness in this position must be capitalized on.”
The South, circa 1861: We want to leave the Union and continue to treat the Negros like subhuman dirt!
Hitler: I want to exterminate the Jews and reign supreme over the world, crushing both religion and democracy!
Muslim terrorists: We want to blow up your country in the name of Allah!
Baby: I want some milk and my diaper changed.
“Pro-choice should be picketing Crisis Pregnancy Centers EVERY DAY.”
Yeah, that’s REALLY going to make you not look like assholes. “Stay out of there, teenage girl! Don’t you dare make an appointment for a free pre-natal exam! Put down that receiving blanket! Damn it, you stupid child, don’t you know you’re supposed to have that thing dismembered, not knit it booties?” Heck, even HAL seems to get this.
Gosh this is an amazing piece Jill. To equate fighting a war with killing an innocent human baby….and they admit it….it is a life! No one believes that the wards were filled with botched homemade abortion pre Roe VS. Wade anymore. What encouragement that we are winning… What kind of billboards would they do to promote choice???
It has been a longstanding principle of constitutional law that one person’s rights end where another person’s nose begins. In other words, we cannot impinge on someone else’s rights while exercising our rights. Why we exclude unborn babies from this has never made any sense.
“The last bastion to protecting women’s rights has caved. But not because they don’t have the majority to protect us; but because they don’t feel our full rights are important enough to fight for …”
Oh, boo-hoo. Taylor Marsh’s cheesy whine is little more than manipulative crocodile tears. And Nicholas Fogelson’s screed, “Why Pro-Choice is losing,” essentially amounts to, “Yes, we know what we are doing is immoral, but we need to work harder if we want to continue doing our dirty deeds.”
Such arrogance is disgusting. But then, I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised. Romans 1:18-22 tells us that:
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools …”
In the meantime, God is still sovereign. In the end, God wins! Revelations 21:3-5 is a wonderful reminder of this:
“And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, ‘Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.’ And He who sits on the throne said,’Behold, I am making all things new.’ And He said,’Write, for these words are faithful and true.'”
Not only were the OB/GYN wards filled with the victims of botched abortions prior to 1973, but the Emergency Rooms were forced to handle the overflow on a daily basis.
Overworked doctors and nurses had to triage the patients, setting aside the worst hemorrhaging patients to die so they had time to treat those who stood a fighting chance. That’s why we have a glut of physicians, highly skilled Ivy League grads who are fighting for the privilege of training to be abortionists, with five year waiting lists to get into training. The empty ER’s and OB/GYN wards stand as silent witnesses to the truth that safe/legal abortions save lives.
Funeral homes did the best business they ever did prior to 1973, and have consistently been the biggest supporters of the pro-life movement, cynically calculating that a repeal of Roe will bring back business.
Just thought I’d fill in what the pro-aborts left out. They’re getting sloppy.
Gerard,
If you have documentation of such claims, please provide it. Documentation does not include the tired old fairy tales you just parroted, but would certainly include hospital reports and peer-reviewed research.
An in light of your misguided belief that this has somehow saved lives, I wonder how you feel about all those babies Planned Parenthood and their ilk have butchered? If you would like evidence of that situation, please see the pictures posted on this page.
Tom
Hey Tom.
I think there is a bit of confusion. Look at Gerard’s last line: “Just thought I’d fill in what the pro-aborts left out. They’re getting sloppy.” He’s parodying them, or satire, or something… I don’t really know the names of comedy types, but what I do know is that Gerard is very, very pro-life and does not believe any of what he wrote; he is just parodying their constant attempt to paint abortion as a “moral choice” because not having right to abortion “leads to deaths” or whatever.
Tom – he was being sarcastic. :)
Tom,
Click on my name below. It will direct you to my pro-life blog. Any regular reader here would tell you that I was engaging in pure mockery of the claims in Jill’s article of OB wards filled with victims of botched abortions.
Another give-away is that the medical community detests abortionists and the practice so bad, that only the very worst, the failures do abortions—and there aren’t that many of them either!
Sorry if my attempt at cynical hyperbole fell flat. I’ll stick to what I know best-science.
God Bless
No problem, Gerard. I don’t have the time to be here too often, so there was no way to know you were being facetious. I’m sorry for the misunderstanding.
Tom
Interesting stuff indeed…
I wonder if the pro-abort’s are starting to really re-think their positions, or if this is just the normal after-action self-examination after a political setback.
One thing I picked up is that they almost clue in to the fact that they don’t have a mobilized grassroots effort. It’s pro-life volunteers or local groups that put up billboards or other education activities. The pro-aborts don’t do it, because they have a small activist base, lot’s of money, but not as much widespread popular support (they do have plenty of apathy from the undecided middle though).
Also, admitting that they can’t win the “morality angle” of the argument and should shift to the pragmatic side (“yes it’s bad, but so is war, sometimes necessary, etc.) is a tacit admission that we’ve move the ball a little bit further down the field…
So abortion is in the health reform law, and they’re STILL not happy?
Tom,
It’s all good bro. Glad you and I are on the same side!! I l;ove your comments here.
God Bless
“Pro-choice should be picketing Crisis Pregnancy Centers EVERY DAY.”
Yes — to make it very clear that they’re not about CHOICE, but about ABORTION, and that every woman who chooses life is a personal and political defeat for them.
Tom, Gerard: You would make fast friends. Gerard, Tom is not only a pro-lifer and friend, he gave me my start at World Net Daily. He still watches my back, just like you do. You are both such blessings!
Jill,
Thanks. Hopefully Tom and I can meet sooner, rather than later.
Tom,
Again my apologies if my failed attempt at irony led you, or anyone, to unnecessary angst or embarrassment. As I said, from now on I’m sticking to the kind of writing that I do best. I’ll leave the creative writing to the professionals ;-)
God Bless you both!!
“To be a supporter of war and then to claim abortion cannot be justified because it is killing a life is a very bad argument, and the weakness in this position must be capitalized on.”
-sarcasm- Yes, because there is NO DIFFERENCE between an enemy combatant and an innocent unborn baby. None whatsoever. -end sarcasm-
As a pro-lifer, I support just war (e.g., hitting military targets only during wartime). I recognize that sometimes civilians do get killed, but those deaths should always, ALWAYS be accidental and not intentional, and every effort should be taken to prevent them.
Excuse me, but WHOSE logic is skewed??
Gerard:
I actually thought you drank the “kool-aide” and went to the Dark Side:
Luuuuuuuuuuke, I am your Father………
I’m glad Obewonkanobe (Tom Ambrose) got to you in time.
Hey Tom we need ya man, come back often, please.
From some investigation I did a while back, 39 women lost their lives to the back alley abortionists the year before Roe v Wade. This number is matched or exceeded by the RU486 and Morning After pills today, not including the Killer Tiller victims.
Can’t argue with the facts.
Hate to be the rain on everyone’s parade but I think despite what is being said by pro-aborts, the pro-life movement has a very tough fight approaching.
The health-control bill just passed, which, for all intents and purposes, is FOCA. The groundwork is being laid to outlaw pro-life efforts, such as PRCs and ad campaigns through judicial games.
some people on here use pro-choice and pro-abort interchangeably. its not. they are two things.
i am pro-choice. i don’t love abortion. i don’t say ooo lets get all the pregant teens together and go get group abortions!!! NO i believe that everyone needs options and that they need to be able to chose what is best for themselves.
late term abortions are dumb tho. there i will agree that that is murder. those pictures make me sick
NO i believe that everyone needs options and that they need to be able to chose what is best for themselves.
Posted by: anna at April 8, 2010 11:32 PM
New research change presumptions about “choice:” MOST abortions are unwanted or coerced. Many are forced. Women aren’t, in most cases, the one literally or effectively making the “choice.” Most do not want an abortion.
Forced abortion is happening in America and has been for some time. Women have been beaten, fired, denied shelter, etc. for being pregnant. Homicide is the #1 killer of pregnant women.
etc. for being pregnant.
Homicide is the leading killer of pregnant women.
Citations for this, plus the fact that mothers are dying, too, at a rate nearly 4 times higher if she aborts vs. giving birth or that 65% suffer symptoms of PTSD, are at http://www.TheUnChoice.com
This important, but seldom-reported evidence suggests to the “pro-life, but …” leaders and “pro-choice” or “Pro-abortion rights” leaders that this is no favor to women! Rather, it is a human rights abuse and wrongful death at best.
Certainly not “safe,” “just” or “choice” by any fair understanding of the words. http://www.theunchoice.com/unsafe.htm
Chris, just in case you weren’t following the other thread, Anna is an 18 year old with an unplanned pregnancy… she is relatively new to these concepts and, as many others here found as we grew up, is just beginning to really think about what pro-choice means (I don’t think she was aware of the prevalence of late-term abortion until recently, for example).
Posted by: Elisabeth at April 9, 2010 8:56 AM
Reading the comments on the post at the Academic OB/GYN blog is most enlightening. Several pro-lifers tried to engage Dr. Fogelson (the author) on the humanity of the unborn. He refused to address the question.
I’m gonna quote the excellent advice offered by Scott Klusendorf and the good folks at the Life Training Institute:
Focus on the one issue that really matters. What is the unborn? If unborn children are human beings, then almost all of the arguments for abortion will fall flat. On the other hand, if unborn children are not human beings, then there is nothing wrong with abortion. All of the other issues around abortion are secondary (at best) to this one issue. What is the unborn?
Anna,
Please let me address you as both a father and a college professor.
The majority of students your age are searching for an identity, and doing so while taking classes at great expense. Many in their third year find that at age 20 they want something else than they did when they began at age 18. Now they’re stuck in a major that they hate because they can’t afford another year or two of tuition to pursue what they really want.
My best students are the women, MOTHERS, who are returning to college part-time or full time. They’re focussed. Having children does that to us.
They’re driven. They get the highest grades.
Anna, you are not going to become a mother. You ARE a mother, and a young mother at that. Life is long, and at 18 most of it is before you. That presents you with at least another 60 years for growth and development. It also presents you with six decades of unimaginable regret should you choose to give in to despair.
Don’t despair Anna. Give in to love. Keep that child who already has an identity, who is already known and loved by God. Your family and friends will change and soften when they see the beautiful newborn.
And I make you this promise. If you need help getting started with baby supplies, you email Jill your contact information and I’ll see to it that I and others chip in and help you get started.
We will take you as a friend and surround you with the love that you despair of.
That’s not just for your baby’s sake, but also for YOURS.
The very best things in life are usually unplanned Anna. We don’t plan to fall in love. Love seeks us out. Love finds us when we aren’t looking and when we feel least worthy.
That’s what Easter is all about.
Love has found you in this child. Even if it cost you every relationship that you ever had, it would prove that they were not rooted in love. This child’s love for you will heal whatever hurts you are experiencing now.
The CHOICE in ‘pro-choice’ Anna is that between Love and Despair.
Choose love. Then email Jill if you need some help getting set up for the baby. Email me if you need some career advice/counseling gerardnadal60@gmail.com
God Bless
Anna,
A BIG AMEN to what Gerard said. My family and I are on board with his promise to you, too.
Tom Ambrose
i think they are unacceptable because why would you carry a baby that long and then just be like oh okay i’m tired of it i’m done. i think that in the beginning its just different. it sometimes doesn’t exactly register that its gonna be a baby to some people and its easier but late term they look like babies do when born. i just think that is ridiculous you cant blame an abortion that late on being raped or being to young, if you were gonna do it do it right away i think.
i hope you all don’t think your gonna make me pro-life completely but i do see where you are coming from on many things. i just believe we should all be able to chose what happens with our lives. even if that means “fixing” a mistake, for lake of better words.
thank you all so much btw
anna – thanks for responding.
I’m a dad, my son was not expected and my girlfriend and I weren’t married when he was conceived. We married a week before he was born. I would say his conception was accidental – but he is not a mistake.
That was 22 years ago. He has filled our lives with joy.
My on-going commitment to his mom is also a commitment to him.
In addition to our son we now have a beautiful daughter your age and another who is a couple of years younger.
Making a commitment to your child is a choice. In fact, that’s really the only choice that’s continuously made.
You already have a baby – you are, “with child”, if you’re pregnant.
You can go here:
http://www.ehd.org/
to see what your baby looks like as it develops. But if you are willing, you can see an ultrasound of your baby at your ob-gyn, or at a medical pregnancy resource center.
Then you’ll be able to see your very own child, and will probably be amazed at how developed she or he is.
Making a commitment to your child, or not, is choosing what happens to your life, and your child’s life.
And anna – that commitment? It’s love.
Dear Anna,
As you know my first pregnancy too was unplanned. Unplanned is way different than a mistake or unwanted. God does not make any babies who are mistakes, all babies He makes are Miracles! I can remember praying and pleading with God “please God don’t let me be pregnant, I’m too young, I won’t know how to do this, my boyfriend doesn’t want to be a dad, please let my period start, I’ll never ask for anything again etc., etc.” Maybe this prayer sounds familiar?
Anyway, when I think back to that time in my life I think of Garth Brook’s song (you may have never heard of Garth — he’s no spring chicken anymore!) called Unanswered Prayers. “Sometimes God’s Greatest Gifts are Unanswered Prayers”.
My son’s dad and I were not making good decisions when I became pregnant and looking back I truly believe that our son is what kept us from going further down the road we were on. Our son’s coming into the world most likely saved one or both of our lives, emotionally if not physically.
Anyway, a video that I recently learned about that touched my heart and may touch yours too is called The Call by Matt Kennon.
Trust in the Lord. He knows what He’s doing. Even when we don’t.
Anna: Gerard is right about women with kids being way more focused in school. I went to a women’s college, and the women with kids were the ones getting the good grades while a lot of the ones without kids were drifting around in a prolonged adolescence.
You’ve skipped two periods, right? From “A Child Is Born” by Lennart Nilsson:
“At eight weeks, 4 centimeters (1.6 inches), the developing individual is no longer an embryo, but a fetus. Everything that will be found in the fully developed human being has now been established. The fetal stage is a period of growth and perfection of detail. The heart has been beating for a month, and the muscles have just begun their first exercises. Two menstrual periods have now been skipped [that’s how we know this is you]. At about this time the mother-to-be goes to a doctor or clinic for prenatal care.”
All of that is accurate, except that you’re already a mother. Your baby’s heart has been beating since around this time in March. He or she has separated fingers already, and is big enough that you could see them if the baby was in the palm of your hand, where he or she would still easily fit. It’s a very little baby, but it’s a baby. And you’re his or her mother. I know the timing is waaaaaaaaay less than ideal, but congratulations. Some women spend all of their adult fertile years trying to be where you are now with this baby and never make it there.
If you have the baby adopted, you’ll still be his or her mother. (And I’m still making you that baby blanket, by the way.) You can interview prospective adoptive parents until you find the right ones, and if you want you can have an open adoption and be able to get updates about what the baby is doing. You can find adoptive parents who will let you visit. Whatever happens, you and this baby are in each other’s lives forever. No human being is a mistake.
I realize I’m going back a bit here, but this one paragraph in the OB/GYN quote jumped out at me.
“Pro-choice must recognize that abortion is destruction of life, but is still a justified thing. Parallels must be drawn between abortion and other justified destruction of life. It is ironic that the conservatives who are the greatest detractors of abortion are often also the greatest supporters of war, and in so are the greatest supporters of killing. To be a supporter of war and then to claim abortion cannot be justified because it is killing a life is a very bad argument, and the weakness in this position must be capitalized on.”
First, he argues that abortion does actually kill someone, but that doesn’t matter. Then he moves from there into a generalization about pro-lifers. From this generalization he draws the conclusion that ad hominem attacks on a position that the pro-lifer being addressed may not even hold are the best way to proceed!
I almost hope pro-choicers do adopt that strategy. It’s such an easy argument to dismantle they’d just about be doing our work for us.
Anna, count me in on baby supplies.
And I went back to school with kids. It’s true… I had the third highest grade in my entire class of nursing students and won the highest award the school offered (The Nursing Chair Award of Excellence… there were awards for GPA, leadership, service, etc. The Excellence award was for the student who embodied the best of all three areas.)
I HAD to learn and I had to make it work… so I know it can be done. (Oh and that third highest grade was a 3.98.)
As a young pro-lifer, I am happy to see that my fellow pro-lifers are so willing and ready to take a stand for the truth in a verbal, visual, and action-oriented way–both in times of setback and in times where ground has been gained.
I’ve read the article today along with a number of the comments that have been posted, and I want to encourage and exhort everyone who has responded in defence of the pre-born and the pro-life cause to maintain speaking the truth in love to all concerning abortion; and to continue being bold in thought, word, and deed as you maintain, uphold, and impart the truth, knowing well that the purpose we are aiming to achieve is not futile . . .
I am ardently pro life but have a hard time seeing those pix.
Greetings in the name of my Lord, Jesus Christ,
I have thoroughly enjoyed this entire segment. Even the misunderstanding by Tom was delightfully written. Being new, and unsure myself whether or not Gerard was being satirical, had me in brief, suspense. Then when I realized, for sure, both are fellow pro-life, activists, it was fun. Also, everyone blogging on this post is such the example of most of us.
Ever notice that when you are around, or just even reading their comments, the God believing, Agape extending, “Pro-Lifers” are the most wonderful people you could ever meet and/or greet.
Anna, I am saying a special prayer for you tonight. Those offering help here, are most likely the kindest, the most jolly, and the most caring “strangers” you will ever encounter. They are life-long friends you have yet to befriend.
Yours for Life,
Beth
>> It sounds like he’s coming around, though. There’s always hope. Maybe in a view years he’ll be writing a pro-life blog post. Praying for him.
Don’t hold your breath on that one.
>>>”Pro-choice should be picketing Crisis
>>> Pregnancy Centers EVERY DAY.”
>>> Yes — to make it very clear that they’re not >>> about CHOICE, but about ABORTION, and that >>> every woman who chooses life is a personal >>> and political defeat for them.
Hmm? CPCs are well documented to mislead women in their advertising techniques, often promoting themselves as abortion providers until women show up at the door. This has been such a problem that in some states they are now required to put large signs outside their doors that clarifies that they do not offer comprehensive pregnancy care and promote an anti-abortion message.
CPCs offer ultrasound purely to discourage abortion, usually provided by untrained people who have little idea how to do proper ultrasonography. They commonly give inaccurate information about the risks of abortion, including promoting abortion as a risk factor for breast cancer and depression (neither of which are true in large well accepted studies)
CPCs promote themselves as medical facilities, but in truth they are religiously affiliated centers present purely to promote the Anti-Choice goal. Their techniques are deplorable and should be outlawed under false advertising laws. The fact that they are often federally funded is an absolute travesty and a huge violation of the separation of church and state.
Additionally, you have plagiarized my content without permission. While it is appropriate to take small quotes under Fair Use, complete reposting of another’s content is a violation of copyright. Please modify your post to limit it to a small exerpt of my post consistent with Fair Use, and provide a proper link. Failure to do this will result in further action.
Hi Nicholas,
Plagiarizing is using another’s work without attribution, as if it were one’s own. That was certainly not the case here.
I did “provide a proper link” – a direct link to your work, along with the name of your blog and title of your post – at the top of the piece. I went ahead and posted an additional direct link in the introduction of your quote.
I also moved the 2nd aborted baby photo to the right so there will be no possible confusion re: the entire indented blockquote.
One factor re: fair use is critique, and I was clearly criticizing your entire post. That said, I did not originally cut and paste your entire post. I took excerpts.
Still, I did go ahead and pare several paragraphs from your post in an effort to compromise.
Thanks.
Jill –
Though you are not technically plagiarizing, you are violating copyright well outside of Fair Use.
Your post consists of 645 words. Of these 645 words, only 100 were your own, and only 28 of these actually have editorial content. 372 are copied directly from my post and 204 are lifted from Mr Marsh. Furthermore, you make no editorial comments after your unpermissioned republication of these works.
Fair Use allows you to use small excerpts from another person’s copyrighted work for editorial purposes. This is not what you have done. You have all in out copied the creative work of another and reposted it without permission, and added very little editorial content of your own.
I suggest that you read any number of editorials from other sources such as magazines, newspapers, and journal articles. In these editorials you will find that 99% of the content is original creative work by the author, and perhaps 1% is quoted text from the work they are editorializing. The point of an editorial is to comment, not to quote.
The fact that you mention that I wrote the work you copied is insufficient. One cannot turn in a paper in school that is largely copied from another source and get away with it just because one mentions where they copied the content from.
I can see two reasons you would copy the work of others. 1) you want to draw the attention of your audience to another’s copyrighted work. In this case, minimal quotation with a link is appropriate. 2) you want to draw traffic to your blog. In this case it is totally unacceptable, as you are drawing traffic and potential income from another’s copyrighted work without their permission. This would be in violation of a number of copyright related laws.
Take this as a formal request to remove my copyrighted work from your website. If you would like to refer to my content in an editorial manner, under Fair Use you could quote small individual passages and comment on what you think of them.
>> >>”Prior to Roe v Wade hospitals had entire wards full of women injured or dying from illegal untrained abortion.”
>> This is a bold face lie.
No, this is a bold faced lie.
I am a mosquito
It is also not a bald faced lie. It is a quite honest description of what went on the very hospital I work in prior to Roe V Wade.
My apologies to Ms. Taylor Marsh, who is not a man despite my mis-pronouning her.
>> The opposite message???? That you SHOULD kill your child?
No. Despite your ad hominem attack I shall respond politely, which you could learn from.
The opposite message is that women have the right to choose what happens inside their body.
According to what I found on the web, Dr. Fogelson didn’t even finish his residency until 2005 and his picture looks like that of a man in his 30’s.
So when he disingenuously proclaims that:
“Prior to Roe v Wade hospitals had entire wards full of women injured or dying from illegal untrained abortion.”
and
“It is a quite honest description of what went on the very hospital I work in prior to Roe V Wade.”
What is more likely the case is that his mommy was still wiping his bottom at the time in question, if he was even alive then, and that he has no direct knowledge of what did or did not happen in the hospital in question.
In fact, I think it is fair to say, that Dr. Fogelson is repeating the same tired old fairy tales that pro-aborts have failed to sell for years in his attempt to “fight a little dirtier.”
Epic fail, Dr. Fogelson. Push your fraudulent claims somewhere else, because they won’t wash here.
Mr Ambrose –
You seem to claim that people are incapable of understanding the past because they did not live in that time. While that is an outlandish assumptin, it certainly does seem be to the case with you.
I would assume that you have a much better idea of the history of your high school than I do, as you spent a number of years there being exposed to the effects of that history. Similarly I have knowledge of the history of my hospital that you would not be privy to.
If you believe this knowledge to be wrong, provide the data to back that up. Of course you won’t be able to, as I don’t believe the admission statistics of the Medical University of South Carolina are of public record.
As such, we will have to depend on the memories of those who were in practice at that time, who continue to teach today.
Wrong, doctor. You made an unsubstantiated claim, you back it up. There is no evidence to support what did not happen as you well know.
Like I said, epic fail on your part.
I think there is just a simple confusion here. I believe Dr. Fogelson is only claiming to have knowledge of stories he has heard from people who work at his hospital, not necessarily first hand. I think Mr Ambrose (as did I initially) read Dr. Fogelson’s statement to say that Dr. Fogelson was claiming to have firsthand witnessed these events (which now that I read his statement more carefully, I can see that he doesn’t make that claim).
So I think this is just a simple misunderstanding. It happens over the internet. God love y’all.
No, Bobby, I am quite clear that Dr. Fogelson is working off second-hand information, and he just admitted as much. In fact, that is the basis of my complaint with his posturing — he simply does not know what he is talking about and is obviously unwilling to document his outlandish claim.
Additionally, in the original he piece that was the subject of Jill’s post, he advocated for pro-abortion activists to “fight a little dirtier.” I believe that is precisely what he is attempting to do here.
Hey Tom.
“I am quite clear that Dr. Fogelson is working off second-hand information,”
Yes, this is how I understand his claim, too. I was confused at first about whether he claiming to have seen it himself or whether he was relaying info from doctors that he knows who were working back then. Perhaps I was just projecting my own confusion onto the conversation. I’ll shut up now :) God love you.
You know, as I re-read Dr. Fogelson’s commentaries, I’m realizing that besides the fact that he is attempting to foist old fictions on this group, he has essentially trashed his own veracity and integrity by encouraging pro-aborts fight dirty.
With such a view, what is there to prevent him from making up data? What line won’t he cross, and how would we know? What will he tell the truth about, and what will he lie about?
You know doctor, when the only way you can win a losing cause is by deception, lying, or any number of other dirty tactics, it’s time to take a long, hard look in the mirror and ask yourself if you like what you see.
Do you take pleasure in shredding little babies to pieces as they silently scream in pain, or do you do perform legalized murder because the money is just too good to pass up? Do you take artistic pride in such butchery, or do you have nightmares about those children whose lives have been destroyed?
Tell us what it’s really like to be you, and try your best to keep it real.
Of course you are misunderstanding what I mean by fight dirty. The pro-choice side has idly stood by why you and other anti-choice folks have fought in the court of public opinion. Pro-choice is assuming that the correct moral position that women have the right to decide what goes on in their own bodies will be enough to win. Sadly its not enough. As such, Pro-Choice needs to promote its message to the people of the United States to make sure that our population understands the terrible repercussions of restricted abortion access. I don’t promote lying, only telling the truth. Your side on the other side loves to spread misinformation in an effort to promote your crusade.
As for the rest, I have no interest in participating in that discussion with you.
The only real crime going on here is Jill Stanek’s violation of my copyright, which she has yet to respond to.
Yeah, doctor, somehow I didn’t think you’d want to talk about how the reality of that euphemism called “choice” really means the choice to butcher and destroy children in an early stage of development.
The interesting thing about doctors who prostitute their humanity and violate the Hippocratic Oath (“I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy.”) to become highly paid, legally licensed assassins of inconvenient children is that they give away the best part of themselves in exchange for temporal rewards like power, prestige, and wealth. Not a very smart trade, I think.
Knowing that the fruit of their bloody work is a stack of tiny, lifeless bodies and emotionally traumatized women would be more than anyone with a conscience could bear.
You must be so proud of yourself, “Doctor” Fogelson, for advocating such lofty accomplishments. So very impressive.
What I find striking is that while the pro-choice side is capable of holding on a respectful discussion of this topic, the pro-life side (at least on this blog) is incapable of such a feat. Every post is full of ad hominem attack, which in any real debate would immediately discredit you, not me.
Tom – I am quite proud of my accomplishments, and the services I have been able to provide for women, meeting their needs and doing something that they desired for themselves. Not only have I provided abortions at times, but also pregnancy care and gynecologic surgical care – all parts of the field of comprehensive women’s care we call OB/GYN.
The Hippocratic Oath was the oath of one man – Hippocrates. He does not define medicine. Modern physicians each take their own oaths, and very rarely it is the oath of Hippocrates.
This will be my last post here, as clearly this audience isn’t really interested in real dialogue, only attack.
Sadly, I’ve also closed a comment thread on my own blog for the same reason. Perhaps abortion is just to hot to handle without resorting to attacks.
Considering that you came on this site attacking Jill for exposing people to too much of your twisted views, I find your whine about being attacked rather disingenuous, “doctor.”
As for your unsubstantiated claims that I’ve already addressed, it’s clear that all you really hoped to do was drop a load of BS in the hope nobody would question your unprincipled parroting of decades old pro-abortion fairy tales.
Finally, as for your assertion of the “terrible repercussions of restricted abortion access,” it is regrettable that such restrictions are not more restrictive or 40 million more children would likely be alive today.
So, before you go, noble healer, tell me: How many children did you kill this week, and how much profit did you make from their bloody, lifeless bodies? And then try to imagine how much I will miss hearing from an admitted baby killer.
Maybe Jill should post some pictures of abortion doctors her friends have murdered too@@. You people have lost your minds, although I suppose it’s understandable because abortion will NEVER again be illegal, no matter how many lies you spread. In fact, at least in my state, it’s more accesible than ever, particularly with plan b. Sorry. ;-)
I’m pretty sure I know what Jill will say in response to Aly, but she can speak for herself.
I’ll start by saying that I am not friends with, nor do I support the threatening, injuring or killing of abortion personnel no matter how much I dislike what they are doing. Period.
That said, let’s also have some perspective:
_________________________
1. Wikipedia documents that 8 people who work in the U.S. abortion industry have been murdered.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence
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3. Wikipedia documents that: “Historians working after the Soviet Union’s dissolution have estimated victim totals ranging from approximately 4 million to nearly 10 million …”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin
__________________________
3. Wikipedia documents that Hitler killed a total number of Holocaust victims of between 11 million and 17 million people, including Jews.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust)
__________________________
4. Wikipedia documents that: “Since 1973, over 45 million legal abortions have been performed in the United States.”
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States)
__________________________
Hmmm … let’s do the math … that means that less than 40 years, we have managed to kill more babies than Hitler and Stalin combined, plus those 8 abortion workers.
I respectfully submit, Aly, that it is people like you who have lost your minds, not us. Your fellow pro-aborts have gone over to the Dark Side in exercising their evil CHOICE to encourage spilling the blood of innocent, defenseless babies for the sake of billions of dollars of profit.
Truly, I don’t know how you people live with yourselves.
Tom –
So basically you don’t believe in violence towards abortion providers, but still you are making arguments on why violence towards abortion providers is justified.
So your first statement is false – you do believe that violence towards abortion providers is justified. This is awful and disgusting.
I believe nothing of the sort “Anonymous.” (The fact that you are you hiding your identity is typical of this sort of hit-and-run pro-abort tactic. Cowardice is another appropriate description).
As I said the first time I am not frineds with people who do such things, and I believe that what they do is illegal and immoral. Two wrongs do not make a right. Got that?
My point about comparing the number of babies killed to numbers of people who were killed that help murder those babies is solely to point out how hypocritical people like you are.
You attempt to falsely label prolifers as supporting murder since a whopping eight of your people were killed by a few people who chose to act wrongfully, but then you willfully ignore the 45 million living babies who were ruthlessly butchered by people like you.
Anonymous, no anonymous comments allowed.
Amen, Tom.