Week 14 pro-life picket at First Assembly of God Church in Ventura, CA
Read backstory here.
Todd Bullis and his merry band of pro-lifers have prayerfully protested in front of the Ventura First Assembly of God Church in Ventura, CA, from 7:30a-11a for 12 of the last 14 Sundays.
They are protesting because while the church says it is pro-life, it has no works demonstrating it is pro-life – no support of pregnancy care centers or preaching against abortion, for instance.
Around the corner from First Assembly are 2 other churches, Ventura Missionary Church and the Church of the Foothills. And in between First Assembly and the corner is a Jewish synagogue, Temple Beth Torah….
Before the 2 churches around the corner begin their 11a services, the surrounding streets get backed up with cars full of church goers.
So Todd and his crew thought this week they’d spread their signs out further to catch more traffic – to the corner, right past the synagogue. This prompted blowback from the Jews, whose members happened to be there on a Sunday for a function.
Then another man, angry that his kids had to see photos of aborted babies, decided to pack up Todd’s signs. I asked Todd this morning if he was going to prosecute and he said, “No, it was time to pack them up anyway.” So the man helped Todd out and didn’t know it. After all that, Todd’s sons engaged the man in a lengthy conversation.
All in all it made for a rather eventful Sunday.
Todd also told me First Assembly held a prayer meeting Saturday where his group stands in front of the church. They’ve decided they’re being persecuted, and the Bible says to pray for your persecutors.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Would they complain about pictures of murdered AofG members or Jews etc…? Or be glad someone was trying to get the word out?
note to the person holding the camera: Never say potential human. Prenatal babies ARE human–Humans with potential, not potential humans. They may not be “persons” as understood in legal terms as having rights and responsibilities, but they are human beings.
And also to Tod, try not to say “it”. Those prenates are male or female. Use “he” or “she”.
Brethren and sistren, if you are on the way to the ‘meetin’ and you come upon someone in need then by all means cross to the other side of road and look the other way and sing a little louder out of both sides of your mouths.
WWJD?
“Rescue those who are unjustly sentenced to death; don’t stand back and let them die. Don’t try to disclaim responsibility by saying you didn’t know about it. For God, who knows all hearts, knows yours, and he knows you knew! And he will reward everyone according to his deeds.”
[Jesus asked] “Now which of these three would you say was a neighbor to the bandits’ victim?”
The man replied, “The one who showed him some pity.”
Then Jesus said,
“Yes,[……………. (pregnant pause)…….]
now go and do the same.”
Looks like my fellow Jews are not happy about this Christian extremist. If this is a Reformed temple, both the rabbi and his congregation are pro-choice as is the the Reformed American Jewish community. Those of us who have lost relatives to the holocaust do not appreciate it being equated to abortion. Abrham Foxman, of the ADL, has gone on record with what we believe. You folks have the right to your opinion – but it is not ours. We were once called “Christ killers” – for many in the “pro-life” community, we are now “baby killers.” (Many of us are involved in Planned Parenthood) Our Talumudic teachings inform us that a fetus is not a full “human” until it passes the birth canal. Your community and mine will never, I repeat never, be in synch and your analogies to the ovens of the holocaust fall flat.
Would they complain about pictures of murdered AofG members or Jews etc…? Or be glad someone was trying to get the word out?
Posted by: Leslie at June 8, 2010 3:22 PM
A murdered Jew is not equivalent to a fetus. That is really an offensive comment because unless an abortion is an illegal procedure (thus criminal), it is not legally the same as the criminal murder of a person be they Jew or Gentile. I know that there are some Orthodox and Conservative Jews in the pro-life movement; but there is a reason why the majority of Reformed Jews are not part of it and that’s because we are proudly pro-choice. And why do you think that our rabbis hold that position. Please inform me because we really want to know…are we “baby killers?”
so, according to Jewish belief (well, REFORMED, not traditional), you’re not human until you are born? I am curious……what are you then before birth? a rabbit? a dog? a cat? mouse? I assume that a Jewish woman would never have an ultrasound because is taught her child does not become human until birth?
God gave us the command not to KILL/MURDER for a reason. When Rebekah was pregnant with Esau and Jacob, did she not say it was like two nations fighting when she felt them move within her?
I am guessing the Jewish rabbi that speaks at the March for Life in January is of the traditional Jewish belief, because he is PRO LIFE.
Planned Parenthood’s founder was a HUGE fan of Adolph Hitler.
Those of us who are pro life value ALL LIFE, BORN AND UNBORN.
Posted by: Sabra at June 8, 2010 5:38 PM
1. “Those of us who have lost relatives to the holocaust do not appreciate it being equated to abortion.”
2. “We were once called “Christ killers” – for many in the “pro-life” community, we are now “baby killers.”
3. “Your community and mine will never, I repeat never, be in synch and your analogies to the ovens of the holocaust fall flat.”
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1. Equating the indiscriminate destruction of hundreds of millions of pre-natal humans with the deliberate destruction of millions of Abraham’s sons in no ways diminishes the value of those who were killed and is only offensive if you have the same mind set as the people who engineered the holocaust.
2. We are all Christ killers, no single community of the human race is singled out or left out.
3. Saying it and/or believing it does not make it so, though it may delay or prolong the reconciliation, but one day we will be of the same mind.
In the interim I am perfectly content NOT to share your bigoted view of humanity.
If you should happen to be correct in your ‘baseless’ belief then I have done little or no harm. On the other hand if I am correct in my conclusions based not only on theology but corroborated by logic and reason and biology, then you have done great harm.
“[Two] children struggled together within her [Rebekah]; and she said, If it is so [that the Lord has heard our prayer], why am I like this? And she went to inquire of the Lord.
The Lord said to her, [The founders of] two nations are in your womb, and the separation of two peoples has begun in your body; the one people shall be stronger than the other, and the elder shall serve the younger.”
“As you know not what is the way of the wind, or how the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a pregnant woman, even so you know not the work of God, Who does all.”
“Then the word of the Lord came to me [Jeremiah], saying,
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew [and] approved of you [as My chosen instrument], and before you were born I separated and set you apart, consecrating you; [and] I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
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I am not an expert in linguistics or translation or hebrew or aramaic, but those passages sure seem to indicate the ONE who give us breath seems to recognize the person while he/she is still in the womb.
All the latest innovations in imaging technologies sure seem to confirm that conclusion.
When your mother was pregnant with you what species, what race, what people was present in her womb?
Clue:Genesis 1:24
Not all Jews are pro-choice. And having walked through Auschwitz and Dachau, I have to say that THIS Messianic Jew believes that the comparison is accurate.
OK, so I’m confused.
The post says that the church was picketed because they don’t act pro-life enough. In the video, it’s stated that it’s targeted because the church is “good,” pro-life, and close by.
Elizabeth,
Thank you for confirming what we all know.
Most of the ‘dead babies r us’ mob are more dedicated to their abortion dogma than they are to faith, political ideology or national or ethnic identity.
People who recognize the personshood of the pre-natal child are not monolithic. Though we agree on the humanity of pre-natal child we may strongly disagree on other issues.
As Jew, and a Messianic Jew are you offended by the comaprison of the victims of abortion to any of the victims of the holocaust?
Do you think that making that comparison in any way devalues the lives of any of those who died as a result of the Nazi barabrism?
Posted by: Sabra at June 8, 2010 5:38 PM
“Our Talumudic teachings inform us that a fetus is not a full “human” until it passes the birth canal.”
————————————————-
I would say you have inverted what really has happened.
You and your like minded liberals have informed the Talmud that a human fetus is not a full human until he/she has exited the birth canal.
And further more you have created a God in your own liberal image which if memory serves is a violation of one of the ten commandments.
There is also another commandment that instructs you not to commit murder, but you set it aside by redefining your intended victims as non-humans.
You lightly set aside the commandments of God for your own religious traditions.
Do your talmudic teachings also inform you that Adam and Eve were not ‘real people’ but symbolic?
If you are not sure then consult your rabbi, but I already know what he will tell because I have already asked the question of your learned rabbis.
Though the God of the universe may judge your teachers more harshly for leading your astray, you will not escape personal accountability for your free will choices by pleading, ‘the rabbi said it was OK.’.
Comparing The Holocaust to abortion is a PERFECT analogy. A group of people (Hitler, Nazis) decided that Jews were ‘less than human’,and that they should die. Another group of people (Supreme Court, Margaret Sanger,pro-aborts) decided that babies in-utero were ‘less than human’, and that they should die. Jews were experimented on, tortured, and tossed in incinerators…so are pre-born babies. One group of citizens that MS hoped would stop ‘breeding’ were the Jews. Now….WHAT’S the problem with the analogy?
Meant to also say, one group of citizens that Margaret Sanger hoped to ‘eradicate’ were the Jews. She founded PP in HOPES that the ‘lesser classes'(which included Jews, blacks, Italians) would stop ‘breeding’, thus keeping them from ‘defiling’ the Human Race.
“That is really an offensive comment because unless an abortion is an illegal procedure (thus criminal), it is not legally the same as the criminal murder of a person be they Jew or Gentile.” Posted by: Sabra at June 8, 2010 5:50 PM
“Everything Adolf Hitler did was legal, but none of it was right.” – MLKjr
In response to Ken’s question, I am not in the least offended by the comparison.
1. The Nazis blamed the Jewish people for their economic misfortunes. The pro-aborts blame unborn children for a wide variety of things including poverty and lack of opportunities in the futures.
2. The Nazis claimed that the Jewish people were less than human. The pro-aborts claim that the unborn are less than human.
3. Millions of Jews were murdered in horrific ways. Millions of the unborn have been murdered in horrific ways.
4. It was legal to kill Jews. It is legal to kill the unborn.
5. Those who spoke out against the Holocaust were persecuted, and arrested. Those who speak out against the murder of the unborn are harassed, threatened, and arrested.
Good God, Messianic Judaism is considered a form of Christianity. Many Jews object to the term “messianic.” So I hate to say that your opinions on the matter of Jewish thought aren’t as authentic as this woman Sabra’s. You have a woman of Jewish faith and ethnicity telling you that your linkage of abortion to the Holocaust is odious, and yet you persist with the comparison! How paternalistic and offensive!
Also, I don’t think the Jews were persecuted on grounds of physical autonomy, or lack thereof. Fetuses inhabit the bodies of women. Jews–and PEOPLE, for that matter–do not.
Fetuses are not yet people. They are incipient persons. Liken them to seeds.
Sorry, cs, I agree with Elisabeth. I have a t-shirt that says Abortion: America’s hidden holocaust.
Just because something is legal doesn’t mean its right.
CS protests,”You have a woman of Jewish faith and ethnicity telling you that your linkage of abortion to the Holocaust is odious, and yet you persist with the comparison!”
Does that mean that we Catholics should accept and adopt Nancy Pelosi’s views on abortion because she claims to be Catholic? Just because one person says it, it doesn’t make it so. The truth is the truth regardless of opinion.
“Fetuses inhabit the bodies of women.”
Yes. It is called pregnancy. Many of us here are women that have been pregnant. We are called moms.
Common sense.
Sabra: We were once called “Christ killers”
It is despicable for one group of people to be singled out as such; I sympathize with you. As a pro-life, non-Jew, I had never heard the phrase until I was well into my forties. Just want you to know that not everyone thinks that or would call you that. Peace.
“Good God, Messianic Judaism is considered a form of Christianity.”
CS, then according to your logic, it’s the Christians who should be offended by those of Jewish faith who support abortion! Gotcha.
Why wouldn’t the people in the video explain why they were picketing this church? Why was the video removed?
Sabra and Common Sense,
First of all, when Leslie said, “Would they complain about pictures of murdered AofG members or Jews etc…? Or be glad someone was trying to get the word out?” I’m pretty sure she mean that the communities would be glad if someone had banners showing the atrocities and promoting the personhood of the people in their communities if someone were committing genocide of their communities. She was not comparing it literally to the Jewish holocaust.
Second, just because something is legal does NOT mean that it’s not a holocaust. The Jewish holocaust was legal under Nazi law.
Third, the Jewish holocaust isn’t the only holocaust that has happened, and all of them were legal at the time and in the places that the happened. There’s: the African holocaust, which was legal in most countries around the world; the Native American holocaust, which was legal both both when the US was still the British colonies, and still later after the colonies became the United States; the Irish holocaust was – and STILL IS – legal in the entire United Kingdom of “Great” Britain (they’re not great, they’re terrorists); the Armenian holocaust, which was legal under Turkish law; the Cambodian holocaust, which was legal under the laws of Khmer Rouge. I’m sure there were others, but those are just off the top of my head.
I’m sorry for what happened to your people. I’m very sympathetic your situation. In fact, the family of one of my best friends escaped from Auschwitz, so I understand where you’re coming from because he is a very important person in my life, and I consider him family.
However, it severely upsets me that many people claim that the Jewish holocaust is the only relevant holocaust, as if what has happened to my people, the Irish, for the past 1000 years were nothing! The brutal treatment and murders of my kin throughout history just because they were Irish. The Brits tried to wipe us from the face of the Earth. This really happened, and still happens. So please, grow up and realize that your holocaust is not the only one out there.
As a daughter of the clans of O’Reilly, O’Sullivan, Guider, and Hughes, I say that calling abortion a holocaust IS correct terminology, and is NOT offensive. The comparison is accurate.
And BTW, Messianic Jews are also Jewish by heritage, not just by religion. Therefore, they would have been included in the Jewish holocaust, and therefore it CANNOT be insulting.
Furthermore, I can’t believe you would say that an unborn child is not a person, and is killable. A child is a gift from God. If The Lord gives you such a gift, you don’t throw it back in His Face! That is a complete insult to Him! I just cannot wrap my mind around why that would be okay. I know that the Talmud says that the woman’s life comes first, but that’s only if the child causes the mother harm. Just because it allows an exception for health of the mother doesn’t mean that a pre-born child is not a gift from God and is not fully human. Also, the laws that prevented abortion before Roe allowed for health of the mother exceptions, as do the laws in most of the countries that outlaw abortion.
Amy, thank you for noting that Messianic Jews are Jewish by heritage and race. In addition, while there are differing viewpoints on this, the reason that we call ourselves Messianic Jews rather than simply Christians is because we do not view our acceptance of Y’shua as Messiah in any way as rejecting Judaism. There are Jews who are waiting for Messiah to come… and Jews who are waiting for Messiah to return.
In addition, the Nazis would not have been willing to differentiate between Jews who do not view Y’shua as Messiah and Jews who do. All Jews wore the yellow star marked “Juden” whether they believed in and accepted Y’shua’s sacrifice on the cross for all humanity or not.
My family was very upset when I chose to give my first son a traditional Jewish name… Joseph Nathaniel. My father, who was born in 1934, flat out told me that the name was too Jewish and it would cause my son to be persecuted. I understand his concerns. My family is also dismayed (and my Irish in-laws a bit perplexed and confused) by the fact that my Christian children are taught all aspects of the Jewish faith in addition to how Y’shua fulfills all of the Jewish prophecies and in what ways we are given freedom and hope beyond Judaism in His sacrifice for us.
But I have always stated that if my children are enough Jewish to be persecuted for it, they are enough Jewish to need to be taught about what that means. Are you aware that in Nazi controlled Europe you only had to be 1/4 Jewish to be marked with a yellow star and shipped off to the concentration camps? Only one Jewish grandparent was enough to be marked for death. And while the Jewish faith requires that the mother’s line be unbroken to truly be considered Jewish (although some branches of the reformed community are not as strict), the Nazis did not care. It could be your father’s father who was Jewish… you may have never been taught the first thing about Judaism, you may not have even known you were Jewish (and certainly would not have been accepted as such by the Jewish community of that time) but you would have been killed for being Jewish.
I am a Polish Jew who accepts Y’shua as Messiah and Saviour. I celebrate Yom Kippur as well as Lent. My Easter is preceded by the celebration of Pesach. Please remember, Y’shua was Jewish, too. And He never stopped being Jewish. Being a non-Jewish Christian means being grafted on to the chosen people. He came to fulfill the Law, not abolish it. Being a Messianic Jew means to me having the beginning and the end complete. As scripture says, just as through one man, Adam, all men found death… through one man, Jesus Christ, all men may find life eternal. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the Father God who sent His only begotten Son to die for our sins.
Thanks Amy and Elisabeth for the interesting posts. It only takes a little common sense to see the comparison to past holocausts and our nation’s current abortion holocaust.
I personally believe those who become the most offended when others compare the Jewish holocaust to abortion have an abortion lurking somewhere in their background. Either their own or someone close to them.