Follow-up: Teratoma, schmeratoma; and I’m less worthy than an embryo?
This is in follow-up to my September 4 post, “Holiday Weekend question I: Is embryo testing equatable to animal testing?”
I informed Magda that I had posted his/her email and that s/he might find comments helpful. Here was Magda’s response:
I’ll let you address Magda’s 2nd paragraph, but I’ll handle the 1st. Magda was complaining about your comments such as:
Sydney M: “ESC [embryonic stem cell research] produce terrible side effects like tumors with teeth and hair in them. I understand that ASC [adult stem cell research] does not.”
I looked up “teratoma” at both MetaGlossary.com and Google, and Sydney’s description matches, for instance, “A type of germ cell tumor that may contain several different types of tissue, such as hair, muscle, and bone.”
A March 2009 Nature.com article describing attempts to stop esc’s from forming teratomas begins:
The ability of embryonic stem cells to form noncancerous tumours called teratomas is one of their defining traits. It is also a frightening one, particularly for those who hope to develop therapies from the cells.
So the “term” teratoma to describe tumors that uncontrollably grow into hair, teeth, etc., is correct, and it is no rumor that this is a phenomenon of implanted embryonic stem cells.

Suppose we had the potential to cure a disease by killing 2 year olds. Would that be morally permissible? No, and the reason is because the 2 year old is a human being with dignity and moral worth. By not killing the 2 year old for research, no one is claiming that a two year old is “more worthy” than someone suffering with a disease. The point is you don’t kill people to help other people. “Yes, but I don’t consider an embryo to be a human being or to have dignity and moral worth.” Ah, so that is the real question. We claim that the embryo is a human being with moral worth and dignity. Any argument for h-ESCR that does not address that point begs the question. If teh embryo is not human or is not worthy of life, by all means, experiment on all the embryos you want. Why should that be stopped? But the undeniable scientific fact is that we all were once embryos. Life is a continuum and human beings have inherent moral value and dignity simply in light of the fact that they are human. Thus any attempts to justify h-ESCR by appealing to the size, lack of distinguishing features, number of cells, or the eventual fate of the embryo simply cannot justify the taking of the life of an innocent human being.
Am I correct in my understanding that Magda is looking for or expecting our e-mails?
All people have the right to life, but the end does not always justify the means. Helping or curing those with illnesses such as Magda doesn’t justify killing preborn babies for the sake of research.
This is the kind of moral slippy slope society has been on since abortion has become legal.
Again, I’m sorry for people with illnesses like Magda, but I urge you to encourage doctors of finding safer, more moral ways of finding treatment.
bmmg39 – No, I’ve told Magda to anticipate comments here. Actually – whoops – I didn’t intend to post Magda’s email address and have now blocked it out.
“This is the kind of moral slippy slope society has been on since abortion has become legal.”
BS. Do you NOT think we had wars waged in the name of religion before abortion was legalized? Did Catholic Ireland NOT bomb the crap out of the Protestants while abortion remained illegal? Are young girls immune from rape in countries where abortion is illegal?
We’ve been on a moral slippery slope since day one. Human beings have been devalued–often in the name of organized religion–essentially forever. But you people try to deflect attention from our real evils by fearmongering about Kevorkian bogeymen and Margaret Sanger’s purported racial genocide scheme.
Get a life.
Megan, care to post something that actually applies to the issues of this thread, or were you just needing a little pro-life vilification boost to make it through your morning?
As for Magda, as a nurse, my heart goes out to you. I wish we had cures. I wish we could fix everything. We can’t.
I think the fact that ESC research isn’t providing useful answers the way ASC research does is very important… we have attempted to use that which should be protected for our own ends and it is not working.
Rather than chase down the right to pursue research that shows grave risks and no upsides, why not instead put our efforts towards those practices that are beginning to show promise? How and in what way does (a) saying that all life is precious, and; (b) being practical and pointing out that ASC holds the key, not ESC, devalue you as a person?
We choose not to devalue any person…. no matter how undeveloped. I truly hope that ASC gets the funding and researchers it needs to find the cures that you and so many others will benefit from.
What Magda should know about pro-lifers is that we see embryos “headed for the trashcan” as EQUAL to her.
And therein lies the hint to those like Magda who fail to see one’s participation in the Culture of Death. Speaking about a person’s “worth,” whether of the self or others, is the kind of destructive language that leads to mass murder.
God help us all.
I wonder how many of the millions and millions of persons killed by abortion in recent decades would have been scientists, and politicians, and financial benefactors, etc. who would have contributed to advancing the science of adult stem cell research much quicker than it is being developed without their contributions? Maybe this whole debate wouldn’t even be an issue anymore if these persons had been welcomed with hope and awe rather than rejected out of fear and self-centeredness and narrow-mindedness (not just just the fear etc. of their mothers, but even more so the fears etc. of those who promote the culture of death in any way).
Abortion advocates are eager to see ESCR become popular and well funded because it would assuage their un-acknowledged guilt over abortion being murder. It’s also interesting that all the arguments being used to ‘advance’ ESCR are anectdotal, emotional, and shrill accounts of patients in pain. While no one wants to be sick or in pain, fear of it is not a logical reason to keep murdering embryos. Alice’s comment is right: how many advancements could we have made had we not aborted the firstborn of two or more generations? Combine that with the tyranny of mediocrity that we see in our schools and universities, and you’ve got a recipe for the non-advancement of human kind.
Megan 12:51: BS. Do you NOT think we had wars waged in the name of religion before abortion was legalized? Did Catholic Ireland NOT bomb the crap out of the Protestants while abortion remained illegal? Are young girls immune from rape in countries where abortion is illegal?
Megan,
I’m quite aware of the moral problems that existed before and after abortion was legal. I was talking in response to the issue of Embroyonic Stem Cell Research, which was the topic of this post.
As to Catholic bombings of Protestants, if you know your history, you’ll know that Protestants have also been known to kill Catholics in the name of religion. It’s gone both ways. Your point?
I’m seriously against rape. However, abortion being illegal in other countries and young girls being raped there was NOT the topic of this post. I’m not saying that to be heartless. Like I said, I’m seriously against rape. I know people who have been raped IN THIS COUNTRY. Rape isn’t just in countries that abortion is illegal, it’s a global problem, but AGAIN, that is NOT the topic of this post, nor was it the topic of my comment.
We’ve been on a moral slippery slope since day one. Human beings have been devalued–often in the name of organized religion–essentially forever. But you people try to deflect attention from our real evils by fearmongering about Kevorkian bogeymen and Margaret Sanger’s purported racial genocide scheme.
Kevorkian’s practices are problematic. However, once more, THAT IS NOT THE TOPIC OF THIS PARTICULAR POST.
Margaret Sanger was incredibly racist, but AGAIN, that is NOT the topic of this particular post.
There have been MANY posts talking about Sanger, so it’s not like she’s not talked about. Kevorkian is talked about, but LIKE I SAID: THE TOPIC OF THIS POST IS EMBROYONIC STEM CELL RESEARCH. Abortion has been known to be a part of ESCR. THAT is why I made the comment I made.
Get a life.
Now who’s deflecting? Honestly, “get a life” what are we, in high school? Thank you, but I graduated from High School almost 13 years ago. I’m too old to “get a life” in that sense. I’m on another chapter of my life.
And to that end, I DO have a life, thank you. In fact, I stand up for life from the moment of conception until natural death. What I do in my life beyond that is hardly your business. But, thank you for your concern. God bless and peace be with you.
My mother died with Parkinsons several years ago. I can sympathize with your position, Magda, but I cannot agree with your conclusions. ESC research has not provided a single therapy that is of use in Parkinsons. ASC shows much more promise, and deserves full research support. Just as we would not even think about consuming other humans for food, in the same way we cannot sanction consuming humans for research. Society has been trying to redefine the borders of human life for many years now. I can understand your confusion, as that confusion is intentional. There must be bright lines around the dignity of human existence because we cannot suffer muddy distinctions in a definition that is so important. Many debates that we could have in philosophy would be academic, and removed from practicality. This one debate is more important than all the others, as it defines each of us. You cannot “eat” embryos without opening the possibility that we as a society might redefine your worth, several years from now. As a degenerative disease process robs you of your ability to do even everyday things, I know that you have a great deal of pain as you see your usefulness slipping away. That is a part of the mindset and the worldview that you have chosen.
I beg you. Join us in the worldview that you have value. As a human, you are worth more than a million research animals. In the same way, while a human may choose to give up his life to save yours, it is reprehensible to consider taking an innocent life to preserve your life. Open your eyes and your heart to the love that surrounds you. Don’t give in to the hate. That way leads to the dark side… ;-)
Mother in Texas…well said. We are the same age, huh? you seem so much wiser… :-)
I feel tickled to be quoted by Jill. All I can say to Magda is that I am well aware of what a Teratoma is…have you googled them to see what they look like? Hideous. I just wanted to be more descriptive of what having a Teratoma growing in you actually entails. Imagine having ESC injected into you with the great hope and expectation that it would make you well only to find that a teratoma was growing in your brain. ASC do not carry the risks to the patient that ESC do.
People who are sick who want research to be conducted on embryos ” headed for the trash can” should realize that in some researchers eyes sick patients are viable options for medical research. If you devalue human life at any stage Magda, what is to stop some medical researcher from eyeing you up and saying “Well, Magda is headed for the trash can really, so lets just use her (?) for research. After all, Magda’s life may very well save countless other lives. So we lose Magda, who was sick anyhow, but now thousands of others may be cured!”
Dr. Harold Hodges had that mindset in the 1930’s when he injected radioactive materials into sick, mentally retarded, and elderly patients without their knowledge or consent. Madga, do you really want to be a part of tearing down that moral barrier that keeps us safe from medical researchers with no ethics or conscience?
Not to mention that in Kevorkian’s own writings you will find many sick references to the kind of experiments he wants to perform on living patients. That man is a serial killer!
Medbob, that is beautiful! And Sydney: your point is chilling but spot on! Abortion is only the most obvious manifestation of the utilitarian view of human life. We are all vulnerable in some way to those who operate, whether consciously or unconsciously, out of this view.
With this question, we do see the similarity between the ESCR issue and the animal-testing issue. Proponents of animal research often ask (sometimes with feigned horror), “Do you really think a rat is more important than a person?” But, of course, the answer would be “yes” only if one were advocating killing a person in order to do research that would save the rat’s life. At most, the animal-research opponent considers the rat’s life to be equally valuable as that of a human being, not more valuable.
Similarly, when one suggests that ESCR opponents care more about embryos than of born people, we can respond that one can reasonably make that argument if and only if they were suggesting that adults be killed in order to perform stem-cell research that could save the life of an embryo.
There is no name calling, Megan.
Carla,
I didn’t see her call any names, she just said “BS” and I took that to mean “bull s–t”
I deleted Megan’s post with the name calling.
Carla,
Oh okay.
I do know what BS means too. :)
Carla,
I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to insinuate you were somehow “out of touch” LOL I guess I need more coffee, huh?
Hmmmm. I seem to be pushing a lot of buttons with the pro-aborts which means I’ve hit on something pretty good I think.
Just for the record Megan and Cranium, I got a 1400 on my SAT 12 years ago and was on the Dean’s list in college so I’m no dummy, moron or any such thing. ;-) But if name calling makes you think you have a leg to stand on while supporting child-killing it doesn’t bother me in the least. I know I’ve hit a nerve with you and I love it. it means we’re getting to the core of your issues.
No one who is pro-life wants people with any disease to suffer. We all want cures for Muscular Dystrophy, Parkinsons, cancer, AIDS etc.. But I don’t want to kill the defenseless in order to chase those cures. The point is that pro-aborts refuse to take ESCR out of equation and hold up ASCR meanwhile. Why can’t they just say “Okay, we disagree on ESCR but lets not stand in the way of ASCR. Lets fund ASCR that we can all agree on morally.” No. They dont say that. instead they hang on to ESCR kicking and screaming. if they can’t get their way then ALL stem cell research will be held in bureaucratic red tape. Then they play the blame game. Its PRO-LIFERS’ fault. Sure. Okay Megan, Cranium and Biggz. And when research shows that ESC pose risks and ASC don’t, the pro-aborts put their fingers in their ears and go “La La La La…Can’t hear you!”
We’re trying to save the lives of the sick without sacrificing the lives of innocent, developing children. That doesn’t make us morons Megan. It makes us human beings with CONSCIENCES. You could try yours sometime.
I would love to join you for a cup, Mother in Texas!!!
Sydney, LOL… I won’t post my SAT scores because it sounds like bragging and has little to do with the real world. But I look at the posters on our side… you, Bobby, Gerard, Praxedes, Carla, Lauren and Oliver, and so many many others…. and then I look at some of the hysterical rants from the pro-aborts and I know straight IQ for IQ, degree for degree, we’ve got them beat…
Elisabeth…yeah, its totally bragging but I never got a Ph.D. so it was one of the things that made me feel pretty good at the time :-) I’ll bet you got a 1600! Just admit it!
Nope… not a perfect score. But I was only 13 when I took it so I figure that excuses my slight deficiencies on the math section! The worst part is I took it the same day, in the same room with my brother. I can’t believe mom let us do that. He was 4 years older and a senior in high school… he was taking it for real, I was taking it for fun, and he has MAJOR test anxiety. The night before he scolded me because I was watching a movie and eating popcorn. He told me I should be studying, like him.
I just laughed at him and said, “You can’t study for the SATs, doofus. Relax and go to bed and you’ll get a better score.” He challenged me to a bet to see who would get the higher score. (Mom REALLY should have put a stop to it at that point.) A few weeks later when the scores came in, mom opened his first. He got a 950. Mine were, shall we say, considerably higher. I sure did enjoy that dinner out!
Typical younger sibling, I don’t know if he realized until we were much older how much I adored and idolized him so, being better than him at something was HUGE to me. I’d grown up hearing, “You work harder, but it comes easier to Adam” about just about EVERYTHING. (Never did understand why that was supposed to mean he was better than me… He wasn’t the one bringing home awards in music composition or winning the school spelling be… but every accomplishment was met with, “Oh, yes, I see… of course, Adam is better at this than you are, but congratulations for trying so hard!)
Anyway, we are VERY close now… I still have to fight the typical baby sister one-upsmanship mindset at times… and since he is a first time dad to a 2 year old, in some ways he’s now trying to do the one-upsmanship thing on me! LOL… it makes me giggle. He’s working so hard to get this parenting thing PERFECT… I keep telling him… relax. They’re tough little bugs… he’ll survive. Failing that, we’re thinking about buying him and his wife a roll of bubble wrap so they can let Jamie play outside once in a while.
Carla
September 8th, 2010 at 2:30 pm
I would love to join you for a cup, Mother in Texas!!!
I’d welcome your company!
We so need to plan a retreat…
What does IQ and SAT scores matter if you’re going around killing babies in the womb?
I agree with Elisabeth. They have little to do with the real world.
I haven’t found a reason to disagree with, Sydney either. Even Jill proved her comments on Teratomas were correct, so obviously she knows SOMETHING about what she’s talking about and the naysayers will just have to deal.
Now I’m truly wondering what Carla deleted that Megan said because it sounds like I would’ve had fun answering it :-) Sorry…I’ve been knee deep in taking care of something (I won’t mention what that is, since it has nothing to do with the topic of this blog or post) also, I never did go grab that 2nd cup of coffee! BAD Mother In Texas…oh well.
Elisabeth
September 8th, 2010 at 3:57 pm
We so need to plan a retreat…
I refuse to retreat! Oh wait, you’re talking about something fun, not retreating the debate. Okay, I can handle that :-)
Sorry…my sarcasm is just begging for me to let it come out and play.
“I refuse to retreat! Oh wait, you’re talking about something fun, not retreating the debate. Okay, I can handle that :-)”
Boooooo…
:) LOL
Yeah, cause we are sooooo good about sticking to the topic around here… (Sorry, this is what happens when I’m home with the flu.)
Bobby Bambino
September 8th, 2010 at 4:21 pm
“I refuse to retreat! Oh wait, you’re talking about something fun, not retreating the debate. Okay, I can handle that ”
Boooooo…
LOL
Sorry, Bobby…what can I say? I am my father’s daughter :-D
Elisabeth
September 8th, 2010 at 4:23 pm
Yeah, cause we are sooooo good about sticking to the topic around here… (Sorry, this is what happens when I’m home with the flu.)
Sorry you’re sick! Get well soon :-)