One that deserves to stand alone today, by Steve Breen at Townhall.com…
This basis for this cartoon is a Pew poll released September 28 finding that atheists/agnostics, Jews, and Mormons, in that order, scored better than Catholics and Protestants on 32 questions about religious knowledge.
Read those questions here. (They begin at question #35.) Or score yourself by taking a Pew sample quiz of 15 questions from the survey here.
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
FYI, I missed 1 (on a nuance of the Hindu/Buddhist faiths) on the sample quiz for a score of 93%.
I’m Catholic and I got 14/15. Not too bad. I was not aware that the Jewish sabbath starts on Friday. I always thought it was Saturday.
Joan, it IS Saturday on the Jewish calendar when it is still Friday on the standard calendar. Our day changes at sunset, not midnight.
I thought the poll was actually a bit off the mark in regards to measuring spirituality and the actual core concepts of religion. I mean, it was a bit like trying to gauge the best football players in the NFL by asking them about the game’s greatest players.
I’m not saying Christians shouldn’t know about things like that – but I’d much rather have kids that can recite Bible verses than kids that know what nirvana is.
It’s too bad you feel that way. I think it would do wonders for religious and cultural tolerance and respect for Americans to have a more robust knowledge of comparative religion.
joan – I’m guessing you are referring to me – not positive.
If you are, while I understand your position, as a Christian I can gladly say that I’d rather have my kids growing up as Christians than growing up as Americans who are well liked by foreigners.
I’m not saying that what you argue for is not important – it isn’t an either/or type of situation. I’m just going back to the original poll. If I want to know if a cook is a good cook, I taste the food – I don’t ask if they understand who invented pizza. Know what I mean?
I understand where you’re coming from. I’m Christian too, as I said. But it’s not just about being “well liked by foreigners”: it’s about having a broad-based knowledge of other religions and cultures for its own sake, in order to be educationally well-rounded. I think this would help people to be more tolerant and accepting not just of foreigners but fellow Americans who have different beliefs and live different lifestyles. I also think there’s plenty of room for children to both learn things about their own religion–Bible verses–and things about other religions that they currently are not exposed to.
I scored 100%, but there were two questions I wasn’t sure of, which means I got lucky. Still, I was certain of 13 out of 15. I’m Catholic. A real Catholic — faithfully practicing!
And that cartoon is SPOT ON. Loved it. It’s sad that it’s so true.
I aced it! 15/15. Over the span of my life, I’ve attended many different types of Christian churches, and had many non-Christian friends. I guess that helps out when it comes to knowledge. As to the content of the questions, I think they are fine; they show whether or not someone has a basic knowledge of a religion.
“A real Catholic — faithfully practicing!”
As opposed to what–fake Catholics? Why do I get the feeling this was a cheap shot aimed at me?
I guess I am good company as I missed one..the same one as Jill. I gave it to my mother who is Catholic and she missed four. I told her I had an advantage as I have been Catholic, Episcopalian, Methodist, non denominational and Lutheran (LCMS)
I scored 12 out of 15.
I missed 2 questions. I should’ve remembered that the Jewish Sabbath starts on Friday. <–That one I sat there thinking “DUH!”
Then the religion in Pakistan for me Muslim was my second guess.
I got fourteen out of fifteen. I missed the question on whether or not teachers are allowed to teach the Bible as literature in public schools. I’m reading a book on Buddhism right now. I love studying religion- I have another one on world religion that I got from my teacher.
I got 14 out of 15, but that was because I looked away at my daughter for a second and hit the wrong one..LOL!
I also missed that one Joan. I didn’t read the question fully. I didn’t read that it asked when it STARTED because I knew it starts sundown on Friday. But 93% ain’t bad.
I took that religion quiz like a week ago, and scored perfect 15/15 (two or three I had guessed on and still got them right)
Yes, the Jewish sabbath begins at Sundown on Friday. I knew that and I’m Catholic.
For Christians, remember that Jesus was in the tomb for three days: Friday afternoon to Friday sundown, sundown Friday to Saturday sundown, and then rose Sunday: Three days.
Is that cartoon supposed to be Pelosi?
15/15! Woot.
I looked over the longer quiz, and the only question I would’ve been stumped on is the one about the Mamonidies (sp?). I have no idea what that is, or who, or what the significance is.
Keli, I didn’t take the quiz Keli but here is a Sunday funny. Call me male cause the first thing that comes to mind when I hear the word Mamanodies is a woman’s breasts; but so does almost everything else. lol
I got 30/32. Couldn’t guess the major religion of Indonesia, and I’m ashamed to say I didn’t know that Jonathan Edwards was part of the Great Awakening (I thought he lived earlier than that).
Most of the questions seemed fairly trivial to me, and not the type that would really indicate that people had a real knowledge of any religion. The survey just happened to ask a few surface questions about Hinduism and Buddhism that I knew, but I know next to nothing in depth about those religions.
But then atheists are really good at surface knowledge, especially of religion, so it figures they would score well.
I’m confused, I correctly got 14 out of the 15, and am what the pastor today called a Happy Bapticostal? So how does that work?
One can become a Christian with only the knowledge that Jesus is God’s son and he died for your sins. You don’t need a degree in theology. You need the faith of a child. You choose to believe, and for folks whose only barometer is knowledge it is the absolute opposite.
I scored 15/15. Unlike the “Catholic”in the cartoon, though, I actually practice AND believe what the Church teaches.
Bridget N wrote:
I actually practice AND believe what the Church teaches.
:) Isn’t that a concept? A Catholic who actually believes and follows Church teaching (e.g. condemnation of abortion, contraception, euthanasia, embryonic stem-cell research, etc.)? I really do wonder how many faux-Catholics out there really know what they’re rejecting, and how many are genuinely brainwashed into thinking that “whatever my opinions … er… ‘conscience’ says, must be okay!”…
I scored 14 out of 15. I missed the major religion of Pakistan.
Not too bad for a Bible-believing Protestant.
I would have liked for them to ask which major religion has fed the hungry, clothed the poor, housed the homeless, opened more hospitals, given healthcare to the sick, ministered to people during catastrophes (earthquakes, tsumanis, floods, hurricanes, etc) than any other to see how many people got that right. Excellent article linked by Sydney M. (I think) during the last couple of weeks regarding who contributes the most to charities; “spread the wealth around” liberals or morally conservative Christians. We have been lied on as being hateful, stingy, bigoted hypocrites by MSM far too long. The discrepancy of the percentage of income we give to charity, church outreach and hours volunteered to charity is huge. We do it because we love and care for others but you wouldn’t think so from MSM.
Hi Joan,
I don’t think the “fake Catholic” reference was directed towards you. The term is used from time to time here, mostly towards politicians who claim to be Catholic while publicly advocating positions contrary to Catholic teaching. Being pro-choice is one example. I like to call them “CINOS” (Catholics in name only).
This cartoon is especially appropriate today because it’s “Respect Life Sunday”. Catholic parishes organize “life chains” on major roads across the U.S. where pro-lifers pray for a change of heart among pro-choicer/pro-aborts while holding respectful pro-life signs . No graphic signs are allowed and quiet prayer is encouraged.
Truthseeker,
Very funny comment on Manomides. I didn’t take the quiz because I probably would not do very well… I’m thinking it’s the name of a person… never thought of mammaries! Ha!
100% (15/15)
Ex-GOP-Voter: I thought the poll was actually a bit off the mark in regards to measuring spirituality and the actual core concepts of religion.
We’re in agreement. I thought for the most part it was trivial and focused on personalities as opposed to doctrine. The only two I thought addressed any substance were questions on transubstantiation and nirvana. (no pun intended…)
HI Joan,
I think this would help people to be more tolerant and accepting not just of foreigners but fellow Americans who have different beliefs and live different lifestyles.
Do you mean how tolerant and accepting you are of me as a post abortive mom? Hmmm.
Janet, it’s not just Catholics that do the Life Chain, it’s Christians in general. Just got back from ours a while ago. We had a lot of good responses, although one young man – one who is against abortion – said he thought our signs were hateful. All they said was ‘Abortion Kills Children.’ Really didn’t know what to say to that.
I got 14/15 and my sis got 15/15; I had no idea what The Great Awakening was, so I just guessed after eliminating Billy Graham. :/ I think the Sabbath one should have said Friday night though, it’s almost like they were trying to trick people on that one.
15/15
Not only does the Sabbath begin at sundown on Friday, but Sunday and Solemnities also begin at sundown the day before for Catholics. That’s why our Mass of anticipation must be late afternoon, early evening, and satisfies the obligation.
We follow the example of our elder brothers in faith.
Amanda,
Thank you for doing the Life Chain. I couldn’t get to one this year.
I wonder if that young man paid for an abortion, or drove someone to get one.
I always ask them WHY? Why do they think what they think about a sign? :)
I’m pentecostal. I scored 100%.
Ex-GOP Voter October 3rd, 2010 at 10:22 am
“I’m not saying Christians shouldn’t know about things like that – but I’d much rather have kids that can recite Bible verses than kids that know what nirvana is.”
==============================================================
I got 14 out of 15 correct, scored 93%.
I only missed the question about nirvana.
[Maybe that is why I have never achieved that ‘state’. Maybe that explains my ‘sufferings’. Is nirvana one of those seven other states that b o claims to have visited during the presidential campaign?]
I claim paritial credit on that one. I had narrowed it down to two possibilites:hinduism or budhism.
I shoud have gone with my first inclination.
Drats.
I have never taken a course in comparative religion or studied the doctrines of other religions. I did read the book of mormon. The parts that Smith plagarized from the New Testament were pretty good.
I have a copy of the koran/qur’an on my pc. Interaction with pro-choice muslims prompted me to download the document so that I do word searches and see for myself what their ‘book’ says.
Ex-Rino,
Congratulations on the birth of you child?
Have you started a savings account in his/her name so that she/he can pay his/her share of OUR national debt.
You think she/he cries a lot now.
Wait til he/she realizes the ‘gift’ we have left for her/him.
Think of that next time you see the ‘gift’ she/he has left for you in his/her diaper.
Seriously I am happy to hear that your child is doing well.
Children ARE a gift from God.
They are a blessing.
I read that somewhere in the ‘book’.
Amanda K.
October 3rd, 2010 at 4:10 pm
Janet, it’s not just Catholics that do the Life Chain, it’s Christians in general.
Amanda,
That’s good news!
Joan,
I wasn’t directing my comment toward you. Promise.
There are far too many “Catholics” in America who are not truly Catholic, because they do not believe what the Church teaches and they do not live what the Church teaches. The number of Catholics who live/believe/vote pro-abortion is the premiere example. No one can be Catholic and pro-choice. Such folks are what I would call “fake” Catholics as you put it.
I did the life chain, too. I had a prayer book I had gotten from the Pro Life Action league that I brought with me. We mostly had good honks but a few things yelled that I have no idea what was said (I think some girl screamed, but it was without words?)
My brother and sister in law came, too. t Thought it’d only be my brother and the two older girls, but they all came, including 5 1/2 month old Sarah and 3 1/2 year old Kolbe (a boy). They were across the street from us.
I held my non graphic sign that shows the face of a baby (not aborted) and it says “Face it. Abortion kills”
If anyone has signs from American Life league (like the one I had today) I recommend the sign holder for $3 from their pro life store.
Joan, on a different thread you say, “What I’m saying is that the entire idea that abortion is or should be considered “murder” is ludicrous to begin with”
I am directing my comment to you:
You are a CINO.
Keli-Hu - Mamonidies (sp?). I have no idea what that is, or who, or what the significance is.
Moses (Moshe) Mamonidies is a medieval Jewish rabbi (also known as RamBam) whose work influenced a great deal of what is considered Jewish ethics today. He’s quite the scholar – his work also influenced Christian scholars (and saints) as well.
Praxedes: I never claimed to be the most dedicated Catholic around, but frankly I was born a Catholic, identify as a Catholic, and attend Easter and Christmas Mass, and that’s Catholic enough for me and most of my Catholic immediate and extended family.
What does your God think about how you have treated me here, Joan?
Yeah Janet, my mom heads up the one for our area, and we’re Wesleyan.
Carla, I’m really not sure what the guy was thinking. He was saying something about it not being loving enough for Christians to approach it that way, but really, how much nicer can you make a sign and still have it be truthful? And frankly, even Jesus overturned tables when he saw bad things going on, so idk.
I just think that their anger and rage comes from somewhere. It was already in their hearts and a prolife sign usually brings it to the boiling point. I get their middle finger as a bonus.
I am grateful for your witness today!!! I am very proud of you, Amanda!
“What does your God think about how you have treated me here, Joan?”
Treated you here? What does that mean? You are so stuck in this victim mindset that anyone who questions you in any way is just viciously dumping on you.
Joan, please get a copy of the Catechism and see how far off you are from the Catholic Faith. I know because I used to be a Creaster too (only attended Mass on Christmas and Easter). Calling yourself Catholic when in reality you are not practicing or living the Catholic Faith only confuses others. They may see you as an example of Catholics and this is misleading and unfair to those that truly believe and live the Catholic Faith.
Hence, the cartoon.
Catholicism is as much a cultural identity as it is a religious identity. It’s a part of my upbringing and I feel perfectly entitled to describe myself as Catholic. And apart from a few political and social issues, there isn’t really that much space between me and whatever the “ideal” Catholic you have in mind is.
Carla is no longer a victim. She speaks out against the continued victimization of women (in situations like she was once) by the likes of Planned Parenthood (or others who have an “interest” in seeing that certain unborn children never see the light of day) who would continue to perpetuate statutory rape, dispensation of inaccurate biological information (or the withholding of accurate information), and pressuring and intimidation of women.
I’m guessing you would have more sympathy for someone who was, say, told they needed to have a certain type of surgery only to find that they were given false or incomplete information about what the surgery entailed, its risks, and possible future effects. The reason you have a problem with Carla is because HER surgery was abortion, a “choice” which you hold to be sacrosanct (and which your church does not).
“Catholicism is as much a cultural identity as it is a religious identity. It’s a part of my upbringing and I feel perfectly entitled to describe myself as Catholic. And apart from a few political and social issues, there isn’t really that much space between me and whatever the “ideal” Catholic you have in mind is.”
———————————————————-
There is indeed a great deal of space between you and someone who has chosen to be Catholic out of fidelity, love, faith, and a hunger for Christ. You have no interest in the truth and no interest in living an authentic Catholic faith – you merely feel “entitled” to wear a cultural label. I can’t fathom why. What good does it do you?
The truth of the Catholic faith is not open for debate; it’s not malleable in your hands to shape into whatever suits your tastes. You deceive yourself if you think you can pick and choose, take this and leave that, show up for Christmas and Easter and call yourself Catholic. You have no idea what you’re missing, but what makes it hard to pity you rather than be frustrated with you is your cavalier attitude about something so profoundly sacred.
There are too many “Catholics” who think as you do and that is precisely the problem in America. You cannot recreate the Church in your own image. You are not entitled to call yourself Catholic if you are not willing to live as one.
I’ve already explained to you why I identify as a Catholic, and why I feel justified in doing so. It’s part of my cultural heritage and identity and it’s something that does mean a great deal to me personally, even if you think my faith is lesser than yours because I’m somehow not as devout. I shouldn’t have to defend myself like this, but I’m offended that you accuse me of “picking and choosing”: I maintain that on the fundamentals, there is not a “greal deal of space” between me and your picture-perfect “ideal” Catholic. Where there is any space, it’s on issues that I have deeply-held beliefs about, and I can no more abandon those than I can abandon my faith. I’m not a zombie who lets the Pope tell me what all my beliefs are, sorry.
14/15
“There are too many “Catholics” who think as you do and that is precisely the problem in America.”
exactly Jennifer…
What a world of relativism! So you ‘feel justified’ being a pro-abortion Catholic? That’s not being Catholic and it is a grave insult to real Catholics who embrace the wholeness of Catholic teaching. That is like saying you put a stethoscope around your neck a couple times a year and that makes you a doctor because you feel justified about it. You do not believe that Jesus is the only son of God, you do not believe that he was born of the Blessed Mother, the Virgin Mary, you do not believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins, and you certainly do not believe in the communion of saints. To be Catholic one must embrace the entirety of at least the Apostles Creed and one must embrace the Nicene creed. You are at best a lapsed catholic or perhaps a back-sliding atheist. I feel very justified in saying that.
Joan,
I am not a victim. I am not my own, I have been bought at a great price. I have the freedom in Christ to share one of the most horrifying experiences of my life and no one will stop me from doing so. The emails, letters and phone calls I get from women struggling after their abortions only confirms to me that I am shining a light in the darkness.
You have not asked honest questions of me or my abortion story. You have been condescending, inflammatory and downright disgusting which is why I deleted one of your comments to me.
I do know the difference between those that seek first to understand by asking honest questions.
You so far have only shown me your contempt and feel justified in that behavior because you claim to be Catholic.
If you have had an abortion, there is help and hope and healing for you as well. Since we are from the same state, we could meet in person.
Of course you’re not actually a victim, and you never were. You had an abortion that went fine without any problems. Planned Parenthood never wronged you. No abortion doctor ever wronged you. However, you clearly hate yourself, and you remain stuck in a guilt-ridden victim mindset, which is where I suspect this general cattiness and passive-aggressiveness (see: using your moderator privileges to look at my IP address and determine where I’m posting from, then making a subtle threat towards me) comes from.
Jill is kind enough and open-minded enough to let even trolls comment here. Almost every abortion-loving website or blog blocks or restricts pro-life comments.
The proof is in the vicious and mean-spirited comments that they make. Even an extended, open hand is seen through the filter of their own treacherous motives.
Joan said:
It’s a part of my upbringing and I feel perfectly entitled to describe myself as Catholic.
And there is the problem folks.
Hi again, Joan.
You had an abortion that went fine without any problems.
What part of “the most horrifying experience of my life” do you not understand?
Planned Parenthood never wronged you.
I did not have an abortion at Planned Parenthood.
No abortion doctor ever wronged you.
After I was lied to and coerced by omission, the abortionist killed my child.
However, you clearly hate yourself, and you remain stuck in a guilt-ridden victim mindset,
LOL!! I think this describes you.
(see: using your moderator privileges to look at my IP address and determine where I’m posting from,
Yep. I know where everyone who posts here is from.
making a subtle threat towards me
If you are post abortive I can offer you help and support and recovery. We live in the same state. I know where there are resources near you that can offer you hope. I absolutely would meet with you. Hardly a threat.
Your hatred and bitterness are going to eat you alive, Joan. Please get help.
Dear Carla,
Your loving witness to post-abortive women is an amazing, wonderful ministry. Anyone who cannot appreciate what you do is blind to the horrible reality of abortion.
May God give you strength as you continue your ministry.
Love you!
Thank you, Janet!! I love you too!
I got 100% and am agnostic.
I am, however, agnostic as a result of extensive searching, rather than no searching (or no desire to seek). ie I have read CS Lewis and Kreeft, and A Buddhist Critique of the Christian Concept of God, and so forth. I also went to an excellent public high school that didn’t shy away from teaching world religions.
“Of course you’re not actually a victim, and you never were. You had an abortion that went fine without any problems. Planned Parenthood never wronged you. ”
Get behind us Satan.
Joan,
As another former Creaster (love that btw – never heard it before), I understand what you’re staying about cultural identity. I identified myself as Catholic for a long time while engaging in what one person rightfully called (though I laughed at them at the time the way I’m sure you will now) “practical atheism”. Meaning whatever I deemed “Catholic enough” was Catholic enough with no question as to what the deity I professed belief in might have to say on the matter. The thing about Catholicism when you move beyond the cultural affiliation you’re talking about is that is has parameters that define it….that separate it from other Christian faiths. Namely, Catholics believe that the Church has the authority granted by Christ himself to teach infallibly on Earth on matters of faith an morals. So one who professes a Catholic faith should be hesitant to cavalierly reject so many teachings of the Church. I liken it to walking around claiming to be a vegetarian while eating burgers and saying “I’m vegetarian enough…no vegetarian is going to tell me what it means to be a vegetarian.” To be Catholic (in any way beyond a familial affiliation) means to submit to the authority of Christ and for Catholics that means to submit also to the authority of the Church we believe he placed on Earth. If you don’t believe that – then you are not in fact a member of the Catholic faith at this time. God is always calling us though – I hope you come home (really come home) to your faith.
Carla,
At a pro-life event this summer I heard a funny story. A pro-life man (who’s name I’ve forgotten, so sorry!) who is very friendly and outgoing makes it a habit to call or visit the abortionists in his community. One day, he stopped by a clinic and the director wasn’t in. So he wrote a note: “Sorry I missed you.”
The abortionist took it as a threat. Can you imagine? Well, yes you can.
I got off the couch and got involved in the pro-life movement because I can’t sit idly by and let other women and teenage girls go through this needless, pointless, damaging experience. No other event in a woman’s life is so damaging, so misunderstood by others, and so pushed aside by the very people who promote abortion. They are just like Holocaust deniers.
In the immortal words of Spanky the Little Rascal: “We tries and tries to learn you, but you just don’t wanna know.”
I scored 100%
I was raised Catholic but consider myself agnostic. I credit my score to an amazing world religion class I took in college.
ninek,
:)
So grateful we both got up off of our couches. Pressing on!!
@ Carla: I heart Carla! (*hug!*)
@ Joan-troll: I tried. I really did. I really should’ve listened to my instincts. Seriously… get a grip, lose your troll suit, find some manners, and join an orthodox adult ed (or RCIA) program ASAP. You are seriously lost, lady.
Joan,
The great majority of ordinary faithful Catholics I know (all of whom, including myself, consider ourselves far from “ideal Catholics”), attend Mass weekly, receive Communion, pray regularly and try to pay attention to what the Magisterium (or teaching authority) of the Church says.
If you had any understanding of what is going on at Mass, and just what is being offered to us in the Holy Eucharist — Jesus Christ himself — and what that means, you would not be attending Mass only twice a year. Believe me.
You may be “Catholic enough” to suit you, but are you Catholic enough to suit God?
You’re only fooling yourself here.
joan
October 3rd, 2010 at 9:20 pm
Praxedes: I never claimed to be the most dedicated Catholic around, but frankly I was born a Catholic, identify as a Catholic, and attend Easter and Christmas Mass, and that’s Catholic enough for me and most of my Catholic immediate and extended family.
I think being “Catholic enough” happens when one enters Heaven. That’s the completion of all faith in God and the finale of “the race” (as St. Paul says in the Bible).
But to assume that “If I go this time and do this, that’s Catholic enough for me to consider myself Catholic” comes across a bit on the pompous side and dismissive, as if everything else doesn’t matter, when in fact, it ALL matters.
I heart you too, Paladin!!
But to assume that “If I go this time and do this, that’s Catholic enough for me to consider myself Catholic” comes across a bit on the pompous side and dismissive, as if everything else doesn’t matter, when in fact, it ALL matters.
Shrug. It ALL might matter to you, but not to Joan. We must each find our own way ultimately.
I loved this study. It would seem the more you know about ALL religions the less likely you are to believe in one…
On a side note I watched this awesome documentary on BBC this weekend about the Church of Scientology I found it at EZTV.it and it is well worth the time to watch it.
Carla.
“What part of “the most horrifying experience of my life” do you not understand?”
Yet at the end of the day, the procedure was correctly performed without any complications and you got what you paid for. Were it that every order I make at a restaurant was fulfilled as accurately and promptly as your procedure at this clinic was.
“After I was lied to and coerced by omission, the abortionist killed my child.”
I don’t get it. Did you go in expecting to have a tooth pulled and they gave you an abortion instead? If so, I’d stay away from that dentist.
“LOL!! I think this describes you.”
LOL!! I’m still completely obsessed with something I did decades ago! You got me!
“If you are post abortive I can offer you help and support and recovery. We live in the same state. I know where there are resources near you that can offer you hope. I absolutely would meet with you. Hardly a threat.”
I’ve never had an abortion. And you’ll forgive me for taking an unsolicited offer to meet from someone who only knows where I live because of her status as a moderator as a bit unsettling. Saying “I know where you live” to someone who has never announced their location is frankly a little creepy.
A quote by Joan
Maybe I’ve spent too much time in polite society, but it’s always been my understanding that there are certain lines decent people don’t cross
How long will you make me wait for your politeness? :)
How do you know there weren’t complications after my abortion?
I wasn’t told anything about the procedure. An abortionist is an
abortionist and a dentist is a dentist.
Obsessed? You are obsessed with my abortion, Joan. You can’t stop yourself from commenting on it.
I didn’t say I know where you live. I said we live in the same state. There’s a difference.
FYI
All moderators on this blog are privy to information on everyone who comments here. Now you know.
Biggz October 4th, 2010 at 6:18 pm
“I loved this study. It would seem the more you know about ALL religions the less likely you are to believe in one…”
==============================================================
Biggotz,
The ‘flaw’ in the ointment is the notion that religious knowledge is beneficial.
The tree of knowledge never produced any good fruit.
One of the worst of the bad fruits was religion.
Humans are stupid and religion only exacerbates that condition which is common to all humans.
Humanism is the cruelest religion of all because the only god it recognizes is a god made in the image of a human and well…..humans are stupid.
The good news: GOD can fix stupid.
“I’m not a zombie who lets the Pope tell me what all my beliefs are, sorry.”
Right there you are completely off the mark, Joan.
In case you missed it Joan, the Pope doesn’t tell Catholics what to believe. The Pope presents the teachings of Jesus Christ to the world. He has 2000 years of teaching and tradition behind him. You believe what you want.
As far as I can remember he didn’t make up the 6th Commandment either – thou shalt not murder. :(
Abortion is the deliberate killing of an unborn child.
If you are a proabort baptized Catholic you are CINO. :(
Go to confession and accept ALL of the church’s teachings. Otherwise leave the faith and go elsewhere.
angel, if the catholic church can change from married to celibate popes, priests and bishops; why can they not change on other matters, condoms for instance?
The pro-abort CINO’s remarks made me remember what I heard a minister say:
Calling yourself a “Christian” or showing up at church Christmas and Easter (Creasters) doesn’t make you a Christian, any more than sitting in a garage makes you a car”. (Or a Catholic for that matter). Jesus said “ I will say to them depart from me I never knew you”, pretty strong language from the Savior.
Goodness – Joan – people are passionate because they know what you are missing by being a Christian/Catholic only on the surface. The water of Catholicism is deep – and filled with wonderful revelations, peace and joy. Is carrying Christ’s cross and growing difficult? of course – but anything worthwhile is!
When I was a child, I though as one. Now that I am grown – I know much more and behave accordingly!
Why not investigate why the martyrs died for their faith when the Church was young, and even now? Why not investigate why the Church teaches about sexual intimacy as a great gift to be cherished and used wisely in the right context (Theology of the body)? Why not read the Doctors of the church, or listen to modern teachers like Scott Hahn? Why not defend the life of all humans – even those who are sick, weak, imperfect, and unborn? Why not start hanging out with people who are passionate about their faith and live it to the full? Why not check out people who grew and learned and now life fully according to the teaching of the Church?
I was a person who fed the poor, gave to charity, volunteered – but still did not fully understand things until I hung out with a group of sisters from Italy – and they taught me much. We still collaborate today, over 10 years later. My first spiritual director always said “you are who you hang out with.” find some dedicated Catholics who know the full teaching and live it. It will be an eye-opener.
And as Bobby says: “God love you!”
cranium
October 4th, 2010 at 9:55 pm
angel, if the catholic church can change from married to celibate popes, priests and bishops; why can they not change on other matters, condoms for instance?
Simple, cranium. The Church has never claimed that priestly celibacy is a dogma revealed by God; it is a practice or discipline that has been found useful over time and that the Church is now determined to keep (although with some exceptions, such as married Anglican convert priests).
The prohibition against contraception (such as condoms), on the other hand, is based on an understanding of the human person and human sexuality that has its roots in the natural law revealed by God, but also knowable to reason. Natural law is unchanging and of divine origin, so this teaching is unchanging.
Hasn’t proven all that useful of late has it?
‘The prohibition against contraception (such as condoms), on the other hand, is based on an understanding of the human person and human sexuality that has its roots in the natural law revealed by God, but also knowable to reason. Natural law is unchanging and of divine origin, so this teaching is unchanging.’ – in other words, man-made, determined by men and pretty much non-evidential.
cranium
October 5th, 2010 at 2:27 am
Hasn’t proven all that useful of late has it?
I have no idea what you mean.
Cranium,
“angel, if the catholic church can change from married to celibate popes, priests and bishops; why can they not change on other matters, condoms for instance?”
This is a great question, and here is the reason why: if one looks into the Church’s declarations about dogmas, one will find that non-married priests has always been a DISCIPLINE of teh Church. In other words, you will never find any definitive, authoritative, and dogmatic statements proclaiming that priests cannot be married, or that it is evil or sinful or grave matter. It is a discipline of teh Church. However, when it comes to condoms, and in general any artificial birth control, the Church is very clear in its documents like Casti Connubii, Humanae Vitae, and simply teh Catechism of teh Catholic Church that artificial contraception is always and everywhere gravely disordered. You will not find language like that used to describe married priests.
Thus, the graveness of contraception, being a matter of faith and morals, can never and will never change. Hope that helps.
Oh geeze, Lori beat me to it…
Bobby,
No problem. You can never have too much of a good thing. God bless you and yours! :)
Me: Natural law is unchanging and of divine origin, so this teaching is unchanging.’
Cranium: In other words, man-made, determined by men and pretty much non-evidential.
Simply contradiction a person in not an argument, cranium. I never expected you to believe in the truth of the natural law (or even try to investigate what it means). All you need to do is understand that this belief exists to understand why the Church acts as it does. Not too difficult. I understand that you are not willing to believe it. All I would ask is that you find my explanation clear. But the urge to sneer is too great, isn’t it?
The same in regard to your other cryptic statement. Hasn’t proven all that useful of late has it? I finally figured out that you meant that to apply to celibacy, not contraception.
Instead of saying, “I understand the explanation” or “I don’t understand it,” you attack. I believe you come on this site with no intention of doing anything except attacking Catholics and other religious people. Which proves nothing but a bigoted troll. I don’t know why I get trapped again and again into trying to answer you.
Cranium, I know you will not accept this, and once again I don’t know why I’m doing this, but I can leave your “non-evidential” charge without an answer, and that is: Natural law, as I said, can be known by the use of reason. We reason on the basis on things we see around us, that is, on the evidence.
Let’s leave contraception for a moment and look at something like murder. It’s obvious to anyone who can reason that murder is wrong and bad for human society because of the results it brings. Primitive people didn’t just go around saying, “oh well, one less person in the world, ho hum,” when someone was killed. They saw the results: blood shed in revenge, unhappiness in families, disorder in society. They then reasoned that murder is wrong. They were able to reason their way to this conclusion even before they had fully developed theories about human rights and even without yet knowing divine revelation. They understood that they should not just kill other people any time they wanted to.
The same with contraception (which by the way, all Christians, not just the Catholic Church, and even other religions outlawed until about 1930). The results of the widespread practice of effective contraception beginning with the invention of the pill in the 1960’s led to a promiscuity, a lack of understanding of the purpose of marriage, abandonment of parental responsibility, a nation full of children without fathers, messed-up kids, not to mention abortion and now infanticide. People can look at this and say “this is wrong. We shouldn’t have gone down that road,” All based on the evidence, not on faith.
The reason we need to know natural law both by our reason and by revelation is that our reasoned conclusions are often clouded by original sin, the existence of which we can also know by reason. I don’t know how else we can explain the fact that people can reason to the conclusion that something is wrong and unjust, that it will lead to disastrous results, and yet feel compelled to do it anyway, almost against their wills. No atheist, that I know of, has ever come up with another satisfactory explanation for this.
Revelation is given to us to strengthen our knowledge and our will about these things and show that in going against our reason we are going against God. This is the jumping off place for the idea of salvation from sin as well, but I don’t think you are even capable of hearing this at the moment; and it is the place where reason can’t do everything; faith must play a role. But we get to that place by reason and evidence.
Do me a favor and don’t come up with an answer, however smart you think it is. Just think for a while, for once in your life.
Thank you Lori and Bobby for both your elucidations.
I wasn’t ‘sneering’ Lori, simply stating an opinion. Just because it differs to yours does not automatically make it a sneer or insult.
There is no singluar ‘natural law’. It is different in its meaning, context and extent for different people.
‘Instead of saying, “I understand the explanation” or “I don’t understand it,” you attack.’ – defensive rubbish! A rebuttal or alternative viewpoint is not an attack.
‘I believe you come on this site with no intention of doing anything except attacking Catholics and other religious people. Which proves nothing but a bigoted troll’ – hm, I’ve stated why I am here more than once. And I think I’ve clearly demonstrated that your accusations of ‘bigot’ are somewhat disingenuous given who it is that is trying to make the world behave according to their beliefs.
‘We reason on the basis on things we see around us, that is, on the evidence’ – exactly, but we disagree on the evidence, our perceptions of it and the weight we give it – thus, paradoxically, it is non-evidential.
‘a lack of understanding of the purpose of marriage’ – who’s understanding?
I do think Lori, that’s why I don’t just fall into line with other peoples behaviors and beliefs. Your constant derision of my differing views and atheism along with the ‘tone’ with which it is delivered says a lot.
I wasn’t ‘sneering’ Lori, simply stating an opinion. Just because it differs to yours does not automatically make it a sneer or insult.
You offer nothing but sneers. You state things without any actual line of reasoning and with no backup. And when you have nothing else to say, you naturally make a gratuitous reference to priestly abuse scandal — a great boon to atheists everywhere, because it means they never need to try and make an argument again, just make the stock reference. But of course, I’ve learned to expect nothing else from you.
As I said several times, I don’t expect you to believe that the Catholic doctrines are true. I can’t imagine for the life of me why you are saying I’m trying to make people live according to my beliefs. I just don’t want you to think we believe things without reason. But you are just determined not to understand.
I find your response to be shallow and misrepresentative of what I have said Lori. (That’s opinion by the way. It’s what my brain sees as what you have said and meant. It isn’t a slander or casting of aspertions on you. I cannot disagree with what you say without stating negative things about what you have said. You do get that don’t you?)
I passed no judgement on the issues pervading the catholic church at the moment, merely proferred an opinion that celibacy does not appear to have worked all that well, for many reasons (remember the ‘housekeepers’ and children of priests?). You seem to be making a whole lot more of it than I did.
I disagree that I offer nothing but sneers. Indeed I would claim that the boot has been well and truly on the other foot – not specifically related to you personally in most instances.
To claim that I state things without reasoning and backup is simply fatuous. I cannot recall you providing ‘backup’ for most of your claims – there always seems to be some sort of excuse. You didn’t like the CDC data I provided on a previous occasion and repeatedly claimed to have contradictory CDC data – but we never saw it did we? ‘Too late, tired, can’t remember where…’. You have done this more than once. You also seem to think that your PhD in Medieval history makes you the font of all knowledge in regards to every aspect of history over the eons – it doesn’t.
‘I can’t imagine for the life of me why you are saying I’m trying to make people live according to my beliefs.’ – you have got to be kidding!
‘I just don’t want you to think we believe things without reason. But you are just determined not to understand.’ – what a gratuitous sidestep. I know you have reasons, those are what we debate. If I did not understand then I would not know what to argue against. Good grief!
Wrong, cranium. I never said anything about CDC data, that was someone else. The rest of what you said is no more based on reality than that.