Stanek weekend question: What are differences between pro-life and pro-abortion counseling after abortions?
On January 14 The New York Times ran an intriguing story about the pro-abortion/post-abortion counseling group Exhale.
The journalist writing the story, Shoshana Walters, contacted me last week asking my thoughts about MTV’s No Easy Decision. Then the Arizona shootings derailed that story, so its focus was changed, Ms. Walters called back to say, to spotlight on questions the show raised about Exhale, a thesis I found intriguing.
From the article, excerpted on page 2, Exhale has apparently tried all these years to publicly portray itself as “neutral” on abortion, when it is not. Exhale’s leadership is now bothered by the fact its cover has been blown and is trying to walk that back.
One question I’m left wondering is why Exhale wanted the cover of neutrality. Isn’t that underhanded? What would pro-aborts say about pro-life counseling groups that tried to cover up their ideology?
Moderator Carla and I have discussed at length the differences between pro-life and pro-abortion post-abortion counseling. In fact, I asked Ms. Walters had she spent any time with a counselor on our side, which she had not. I put Carla in touch with her, although Carla was never quoted in the story.
So the weekend question is: What do you imagine are differences between pro-life and pro-abortion counseling after abortions? Don’t forget the NYT article is excerpted on page 2…
Exhale, a nonprofit organization based in Oakland [CA],offers free counseling to any woman who has had an abortion. For years, however, the group has tried to distance itself from the polarizing debate surrounding the issue….
But the organization’s ability to stay above the political fray is being severely tested after the group agreed to participate in a television program called No Easy Decision. The program, which was broadcast Dec. 28 on MTV, followed a teenager’s decision-making process as she chose to have an abortion….
But some opponents of abortion, including Bill O’Reilly… sharply criticized the program as “glorifying” abortion. Jill Stanek, a popular anti-abortion blogger, inaccurately accused Exhale and other “pro-abortion ideologues” of underwriting the program….
The reaction to the program has frustrated some Exhale staff members who said they never wanted anything to do with politics…. It has also raised questions about whether an organization that calls abortion a “normal part of reproductive life” can avoid being drawn into the political battle over abortion.
“What Exhale does is allow post-abortive mothers to come in and debrief and get out all their grief and fears and whatever, but then its ultimate purpose is to support abortion,” Ms. Stanek said. “It wasn’t pro-life post-abortive groups that MTV called. It was a group that was decidedly pro-abortion.”…
Ms. [Aspen] Baker said Exhale’s participation in “No Easy Decision” did not compromise its neutrality. “That’s the way the debate works: people suck you in, and the way they discredit you is by saying you’re one thing or another,” she said. “We’re not pro-choice. We’re very clear about that. Women’s feelings about abortion should not be politicized.”
The hot line opened in 2002, shortly after Ms. Baker had an abortion….
[S]he said that afterward she felt that she could not find support from an organization without a vested political interest….
Ms. Baker said the organization had filled a need by providing support and counseling without political bias….
“Anything that gets thrown into the abortion debate is just pounced on and ready to be made politicized,” Ms. Baker said.
On a recent weekend night, Lauren Gard, a counselor, received a call from a young woman who said she deeply regretted having an abortion. As the woman cried, Ms. Gard, who had an abortion 3years ago, told her that she “deserved to be happy,” and urged her to open up….
Mr. Pinsky announced Exhale’s Web address at the end of the program….
Exhale also found itself at the center of a debate it had tried to avoid….
Despite the scrutiny, Ms. Baker said she viewed No Easy Decision as a victory for Exhale….
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Abortion is not about politics! It is about LIFE & one human taking the life of another human away under the guise of “REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS”. Methinks the politics is clearly on the part of the anti-life groups & their cronies. These anti-life groups (especially PLANNED PEOPLEKILLERS) have turned tiny innocent humans & their mothers into a commodity to be traded like “cattle futures.” They toss the babies they kill & the lives of their mothers into the trash when they are done. And now MTV has used an innocent to get ratings. They are complicit in the taking of that life.
ABORTION TAKES THE LIFE OF INNOCENTS & ROBS THE INNOCENCE OF LIVES.
No Jesus No Peace, Know Jesus Know Peace!
In the secular world of post abortion healing it is the “talk about it and you’ll feel better” mentality. Write a poem or letter, you’ll feel better about it. Cry you’ll feel better about it. They will talk about God if you want to but Jesus is no where near the center of their healing programs.
I have been through 3 years of secular counseling/talked to someone on Exhale’s number and went uncover investigating a pro-choice healing program, which I was not able to attend but talked to the leader of the group a few times and asked what they did. She told me, they needed at least 3 or more women in a group. They talked and wrote poems,/drew pictures and did some meditation. The group got cancelled a couple times because they did not have enough women for the group in the mean time local Faith based post-abortion groups were getting 5-25 women each session many running 3 a year. In Minnesota we have 2 Rachels Vineyard groups combined they have 5 retreats a year. We have multi church based groups who use “Forgiven and Set Free”. We have a 12 week group/ plus Healing Hearts over the internet/plus Beauty for Ashes/plus many, many more that run through pregnancy centers.
Last I heard the group I went uncover for went out of business.
I didn’t know they had pro-abortion counseling. I thought they just let you twist in the wind.
WHAT??!! You mean to tell me Shoshana, that I didn’t make the cut? Was it something I said or maybe didn’t say?? :)
I guess what I am still waiting to hear is Exhale pinpointing just WHAT is the source of a woman’s anguish after abortion? Especially if it’s just a “bunch of cells” or a “piece of tissue” and it’s just a simple medical procedure why the drinking, nightmares, suicidal thoughts and attempts, depression, anxiety and feelings of guilt and shame?
Wait for it.
The cause of any and every woman’s pain after abortion is that your baby died in your abortion. A child was conceived and you had been pregnant and every mom out there KNOWS this. There is no way to explain away the fact that a woman is pregnant with a growing, fully alive human child when she walks into an abortion clinic and that the life of her child is ended by the time you walk out that door. In fact your child’s body is torn to pieces and then pieced back together to make sure that the “uterine contents” are gone.
When that realization hits that you paid for the death of your innocent, growing child there can be a facing of that truth. Once you face it head on you can find hope and healing. Facing the truth brings you out of denial.
It leads me to believe that the women of Exhale do indeed hear women out, listen to their cries but adamantly refuse to see the source of a woman’s pain and help lead her out of it. You must believe that telling yourself over and over and over that your abortion was right for you(even when NOTHING feels right)will somehow bring peace.
You can’t provide an abortion-related service and not take a side. As abortion robs an innocent human of life, it is by its nature polarizing. There is no such thing as neutrality when it comes to the subject of abortion. You either support the legal homocide of millions of preborn babies, or else you support illegalizing abortion. No two ways around it.
I can’t understand why anyone would need post abortion counseling if it’s just a routine part of a woman’s reproductive life!
Right?
I mean, who needs counseling after having wisdom teeth removed, or stitches, or gall bladder removal?
The utter hypocrisy of a pro-abortion post-abortion counseling session is mind-numbing. A case of the blind truly leading the blind, fumbling through the darkness, and stumbling all over themselves in a mad scramble to get out of the door of conscience. Astounding.
“When that realization hits that you paid for the death of your innocent, growing child there can be a facing of that truth. Once you face it head on you can find hope and healing. Facing the truth brings you out of denial.” – Right on Carla!
Ms. Baker, your credibility is severely lacking. Trying to claim you’re apolitical on the life and death issue while claiming others are political is completely disingenuous.
Exhale is nothing more than a case of bad breath.
Sorry I didn’t answer the question in the my first post. IMHO the difference between “pro-choice” post abortion counseling & pro-life post abortion counseling is that pro-life counselors acknowledge the feelings that brought the woman in to begin with. Pro-choice counselors continue with the notion that only one person was harmed that the child which is now lost forever,is an unimportant side effect of a medical procedure. Pro-life counseling acknowledges the lost child, allows mourning of that loss for what it is & helps the woman forgive herself & accept forgiveness from whoever she considers a higher power in her life, be that God the Father, Jesus, Allah, etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDx0xMmiRf8
That’s Aspen’s abortion recollection. Sad.
But PAS is just something the mean old antis made up. Yeah, sure it is.
Just watched Aspen’s story. It was sad.
She struggled with her emotions throughout.
An abortion, my abortion, the abortion. She can’t even bring herself to face what happened to her child.
Her advice to a pregnant 23 year old? You can get through your abortion.
“No Jesus No Peace, Know Jesus Know Peace!”
This is why the anti-choice movement alienates all those who don’t believe in Jesus. The above comment just underscores the Christian religious basis of the anti-choice movement.
O…k…
And some in the pro-choice community are anarchists. Should people who don’t believe in anarchy not be pro-choice?
xalisae – thanks for the link.
Aspen – consider you put yourself through 2 years of personal therapy because why? Your choice to kill your child. Because you couldn’t see yourself as a single mother? Why not adoption? No, it was about severing the relationship with the man who rejected your child – and you.
Virginity and pregnancy are very much alike. Once you pass that threshold, you cannot go back. You can’t undo either. Sex is a threshold too. Abortion is another threshold you crossed, but you didn’t have to go through that door at all. And there is a door you entered with your eyes closed, that you can’t seem to return through. Do you know what it is?
As for creating personal meaning… that’s completely wrong. Jared Lee Loughner created personal meaning. Life is not about personal meaning. Meaning and morality are two entirely different things. Just because something is legal doesn’t mean it’s ethical or moral. You’re still struggling.
You dance like mad around the wording, because you never even mention the possibility of life. You’re still carrying your child’s father inside. And you’re still rejecting him with all your advocacy.
It was more than your child that died that day.
But you don’t want to think about that.
Still.
Wouldn’t less unwanted pregnancies be a good thing no matter which side of the asylum you reside on? Yes both sides look like a bunch of loons including yours.
If you want to beat the bra-burners all you have to do is give them what they want, equality. Yes since a women can legally opt out of motherhood (abortion, adoption, leave kid at a fire station) tell them that a man should have the same rights.
Watch how they freak out and watch how they steal YOUR material. Look at how they start saying things like the choice is made when the guy chooses to have sex and other mantras that you guys use against them.
Now no I do not believe that would lead to a bunch of guys bailing out on their kids. I believe that the guys that would bail are the same ones that are doing it now. But what I do believe would happen is the birthrate would head south.
So if you ever feel like getting under their skin, give that line a try, whether you believe it or not, it really buggers their knickers.
You’re welcome.
http://vimeo.com/14221723
Now no I do not believe that would lead to a bunch of guys bailing out on their kids. I believe that the guys that would bail are the same ones that are doing it now. But what I do believe would happen is the birthrate would head south.
So if you ever feel like getting under their skin, give that line a try, whether you believe it or not, it really buggers their knickers.
I actually said something similar to my daughter’s DNA contributor when he was urging and trying to get me to have an abortion. I said that since abortion was a legal avenue, in the name of equal rights, he should have the option of not being held accountable should I refuse to “choice” our daughter. I told him he could leave and forget about me and would never have to give it a second thought, and I’d never go after him for anything. It’s a two-way street, and if men should be held accountable for the children they help create, so too should women. Abortion should not be legal.
It’s almost kind of funny the obvious lack of thought those who support abortion in the context of “equal rights” have given the full implications of their position.
From what I’ve seen, “prochoice” post-abortion “counseling” is aimed at getting you back into The Sisterhood — to proclaim your choice, however painful, as having been RIGHT and NECESSARY, and then to take care never to let your own pain lead you to say or do anything that might dissuade another woman from aborting her own child.
The prolife post-abortion counseling seems to let the woman simply come to the (unescapable) conclusion that she killed her child, and come to grips with that reality, and get on with her life. And simply honesty about the experience is — as it should be — typically enough to dissuade others.
Just a thought.
Many women I know who are post abortive were once strongly prochoice. Trying to justify what they have done by encouraging others to abort, being vocal about abortion rights etc.
Once we begin to cherish all life again starting with the child that lived only a short while and died in our abortions we move to the place that aligns with our love. Prolife.
The difference between pro-life and pro-abortion counseling is that pro-life counseling exists and pro-abortion counseling does not. NO MAJOR COUNSELING IN THE U.S. IS PRO-ABORTION. Some are pro-choice but that is not the same thing.
A pro-choice person or organization will feel exactly the same way about zero-abortion policies in countries like Nicaragua and forced abortions in China. They are exactly as wrong for the exact same reason: The government intruding in women’s medical autonomy.
I think Baker is confusing “political neutrality” with neutrality about abortion itself. I think political neutrality is right for a counseling or assistance organization. When I was with Birthright, we were cautioned against coming out politically on the issue of abortion. We weren’t to support any pro-life candidate or measure openly as an organization. If we went to any March for Life, we weren’t to carry any signs mentioning Birthright. We were also religiously non-sectarian.
This is right, since it might have detracted from what we did, which was to counsel women from all over the spectrum religiously and politically. No joan and CC, this did NOT mean deception. It did mean that when a woman came in who said “I’m totally pro-choice in my politics, but I want to continue this pregnancy and need some assistance” (and we did get some of those), she would know that we would help her without her fearing that we would criticize her or push a political viewpoint on her.
But never in any circumstances would we lose sight of the actual reality of abortion, what it really is and what it does, and the fact that we wanted to prevent it. We were open about that, and it guided everything we did.
I won’t fault Exhale for being politically neutral, but I’m sorry, no organization that regards abortion as a “normal part of a woman’s reproductive life” can be regarded as neutral about abortion. They’re not always going to be getting women who realize that they killed a baby and need to deal with the guilt, but how can they help even a woman who feels just a little “ambivalent”? Simply look at her and say, “What are you complaining about? Abortion is normal”? I can’t imagine the mental gymnastics involved in Exhale’s type of counseling.
You need a clear understanding of something before you can counsel on it. It sounds like Exhale counselors are permanently fogged.
The differences between pro-life and pro-abortion counseling are the same as between Catholic Sacramental Confession and going to see a therapist. In Confession, you confess your sins to the priest, express a firm sense of amendment, and he, acting in the person of Christ, absolves you of your sin. In a therapy session, you tell the psychologist why you’re unhappy and he tells you that it’s because of fill-in-the-blank influence in your life, past or present. There is no sense of amendment nor is there absolution. The penitent’s wounds are presented to the priest and he heals them; the patient in the doctor’s office deals with their pain by ignoring the root of it. A priest treats the cause, a therapist treats symptoms.
Pro-choice counseling consists of it was ‘what you did was ok, other people need get over it. Any feelings of guilt you have are exterior and do not need to be addressed. If you feel guilty it is because someone else is making you feel guilty and they are in the wrong.’
Pro-life counseling is more like: ‘it’s ok to feel guilty because it was indeed wrong. Guilt is hard to adapt to, especially if you can’t change what you did. It’s ok to learn to live around the grief of your abortion because no amount of closing ceremonies (such as poems and pictures) will make it go away. It’s ok to admit that nothing is as satisfying as helping another child stay alive.’
$55 may not seem like much. Neither did the widow’s small coins. There are secular, pro-life counselors true, but there is something especially healing about embracing religion after a trauma like abortion. Humans are well equipped to be religious, part of our brain actually grows during religious activity such as meditation or prayer. Our religions, diverse as they are, are cultural treasures that connect us to our ancestors. I take a lot of comfort in thinking that my great great great grandmother believed in God and that she prayed when she was troubled. The two- grandparent and descendant- perform a similar activity, separated by time, but connected by action, belief, and culture. It’s a beautiful thing.
Chris Arsenault says:
January 15, 2011 at 7:56 pm
http://vimeo.com/14221723
Chris, thank you for posting this.
Carla, I love you. You are so brave. Keep speaking the truth. Don’t ever stop. I am so proud to call you my friend.
Thanks, Chris for posting Carla’s testimony. I got teary-eyed watching it.
Carla you’re so brave! I hope others come to you who have been through an abortion.
It’s not just something we pro-lifers say. People ARE hurt by abortions. It DOES happen.
Pro-abortion counseling only serves to justify abortion. If the woman feels bad, they’ll help her to justify what she did, and move on. Feelings of guilt are to be suppressed, instead of dealt with.
Pro-life counseling tells the woman that her feelings are normal and that she can heal from them. They are honest with her about what really happened. They support her grief and tell her the grief is natural. After all, a close family member has died, so grieving is a healthy reaction.
As for guilt, the pro-life counselor would non-judgmentally say that’s normal too. If the counselor is Christian, they point the woman to Christ, and lead the woman to repentance, teaching her that God will forgive her if she is truly repentant.
Pro-abortion counseling is likely to be secular, or if it makes pretensions of Christianity, it’s the type that has a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof. There will be no repentance of sin urged, just justification for the sin. Going over the temptations the woman faced will not help her, but repentance will.
Also bringing God into any counselling situation will help bring healing. Secular counseling is hampered in it’s effort to bring healing by keeping God out of it. That’s true no matter what the issue is that’s being discussed in the session.
Thank you, Chris. :)
Thank you, Mother in Texas!
Nope Kel, there is no chance I will stop yapping about how abortion hurts women. How it hurt me. Love you too!
Also bringing God into any counselling situation will help bring healing. Secular counseling is hampered in it’s effort to bring healing by keeping God out of it.
Bringing God into a situation is not always the appropriate way to go. It’ll have no meaning for an athiest. Likewise, an overly sectarian environment would be wrong for someone who is not of that belief system. And sometimes, God can be used as a way to cast judgement upon a person, rather than to help them. The most important thing, IMHO, is to respect the feelings of the person involved, which may or may not have a religious/spiritual component to them.
My understanding of why Exhale was founded is based on this issue. The founder was going to post-abortion counselling, and was being asked very loaded questions that did not reflect her feelings. It is NEVER right to deny or ignore how another person feels. Emotions are always valid, and the best way to resolve them is to examine why the person feels the way they do. Asking ‘why do you feel x’ is worthless if the person actually feels y.
I caught a conversation between Sydney and Dr. Nadal about accepting God’s forgiveness for abortion. Many women find this easier than forgiving themselves. Forgiving yourself for your abortion can take years.
Abortion is something I have done. It is not who I am. My identity is found in Christ.
“xalisae says:
January 15, 2011 at 6:29 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDx0xMmiRf8
That’s Aspen’s abortion recollection. Sad.”
From the video:
“That’s not actually what I wanted to do
and not the way I wanted to become a parent and not the sort of ticket
that I wanted to write to myself for the rest of my life. “
Notice how much of “myself, my, I” there is??? Sad! Truly sad! Looks like she didn’t really stop to consider “wait a minute, but how about my child, how big he/she is now, how developed, how he/she would like to grow up and live and be loved?”
No no no…. Can’t go there. Have to think about MYSELF and what is best for ME!
“As for guilt, the pro-life counselor would non-judgmentally say that’s normal too. If the counselor is Christian, they point the woman to Christ, and lead the woman to repentance, teaching her that God will forgive her if she is truly repentant”
For a “counselor” to “point” anybody in a religious direction is professionally unethical. Would you expect a Muslim counselor to “point” clients to Allah? What if the client is not Christian. Any “pointing” is clearly evangelizing and not counseling.
The penitent’s wounds are presented to the priest and he heals them;
Unless “confession” has drastically changed since I left the church, the interaction between priest and penitent is hardly a “counseling” session. Penitent “confesses” what are considered sins by the RC church and priest tells them to say some prayers. There is no providing an opportunity for insight which can lead to self revelation and changed behavior/attitude. The priest is dealing with “sin.” A therapist deals with personality disorder or pathology in which case medications would be part of the equation. And as many of my non Catholic friends say – why wouldn’t a person continue to sin if they know that they can just return to confession and get clean? A therapist doesn’t have that “power” nor should they.
What do you imagine are differences between pro-life and pro-abortion counseling after abortions?
Based on the rhetoric of the anti-choice movement, I would “imagine” that the old guilt trip of “killing your baby” might be in play. But I don’t know because I’ve never been exposed to “pro-life” counseling. Although I don’t know what “pro-choice” counseling entails, as a professionally trained counselor I would stay away from the “morality” of the issue as that is not the domain of the counselor. “God’s forgiveness” is the domain of the clergy – not the therapist. I would focus on allowing the client to express her emotions and affirm that she made a decision that was right, at the time, and that she shouldn’t second guess herself as that does not allow her to move forward. It’s important for these women to build up their self esteem and rhetoric about killing babies is counterproductive. If she continues to talk about “sin,” I would advise her to see clergy of her choosing. I would also refer her to resources for contraceptive assistance (I know you disagree with that one) because it’s important for women to have this information so as to avoid future pregnancies which could result in abortion.
I do think that post abortion counseling can be helpful as long as there is no value judgement. There are many women, however, who have no problems with it and move ahead with their lives without conflicting feelings. Abortion is a surgicial procedure and like any other major operations (breast removal especially) there can be emotional issues involved.
CC, your post is filled with contradictions.
And as many of my non Catholic friends say – why wouldn’t a person continue to sin if they know that they can just return to confession and get clean?
If this is the heartset that someone goes to confession with, they will continue to sin. If they go to confession with the heartset of not only admitting their sin but also wanting the sin to stop, it will happen. Real easy.
First, you say, “For a “counselor” to “point” anybody in a religious direction is professionally unethical.”
But then you go on to say, “I would advise her to see clergy of her choosing. I would also refer her to resources for contraceptive assistance (I know you disagree with that one) because it’s important for women to have this information so as to avoid future pregnancies which could result in abortion. “
So you won’t give her religious direction but would advise her to choose her own clergy. She doesn’t need advise about religion but you take it upon yourself to actually refer her for contraceptive assistance full-well knowing that some clergy do not support contraceptives but later you state, “I would stay away from the “morality” of the issue as that is not the domain of the counselor.” You as the counselor by referring her for contraceptions have taken it upon yourself to decide what is moral and what is not for her.
If a woman chooses clergy on her own (as you advised) and she picks clergy who is opposed to contracepting, she then gets the opposite message of what her “counselor” just gave her. It’s no wonder some come away from counseling more screwed up than when they went in.
You state, “I would focus on allowing the client to express her emotions and affirm that she made a decision that was right, at the time, and that she shouldn’t second guess herself as that does not allow her to move forward.” Would you say the same thing no matter what the subject was? What if she talked of infidelity or beating her children or stealing a car? ”It’s OK honey, you did what you felt was good for you at the time” pooh, pooh, poohing.
You say, “Although I don’t know what “pro-choice” counseling entails, as a professionally trained counselor I would stay away from the “morality” of the issue as that is not the domain of the counselor.”
You absolutely know what a “pro-choice” counselor is like because if you really are a counselor, (and I have my doubts or maybe it is just wishful thinking that you’re not) a proabort one you certainly are. Curious, where did you get your degree and what is it in? What is your professional title?
I pray for anyone looking for help who crosses your path.
CC,
I am not a “therapist.” I am a woman who by the very experience of having an abortion and struggling for years afterward to find healing lends itself to a certain credibility to help others. My experience has led me to be a Rachel’s Vineyard facilitator.
Please cut and paste where any of us call women a “baby killer.” I know you would like to think that is what goes on but like you said you just don’t know. Like you said, you are “imagining.”
I would leave the journey of abortion recovery to those that have fought long and hard through the years to get to a place where they can offer other post abortive women what they have found.
Love wins. The truth sets you free. Indeed!!
National Helpline for Abortion Recovery
1-866-482-LIFE(5433)
http://www.rachelsvineyard.org
“So you won’t give her religious direction but would advise her to choose her own clergy”
I was responding to this: “If the counselor is Christian, they point the woman to Christ.” As I said, no counselor should be “pointing” to Christ or any other deity. If a client has a religious question, unless the counselor shares that religion, the counselor should not get involved in a discussion surrounding religious issues. If the client goes to a clergy who gives different advice, then it’s up to the woman to sort it out. If she thinks that abortion is a “sin,” then perhaps she shouldn’t be going to a secular therapist.
A referral to those who provide contraceptive advice is just that – a referral and not an endorsement. Obviously, the client is free to say no to the referral. For those of us in the reality based community, contraception isn’t a religious thing but a social responsibility. If “father” tells her that it’s a sin and she gets pregnant again she just might be back at the abortion clinic.
And “infidelity or beating her children or stealing a car” are not even remotely comparable to abortion which is a legal surgical procedure. I worked with parents who abused their children and what they needed to do was change their behavior. Women who have had abortions don’t need to change anything. But they do need to deal with their emotions regarding the abortion. I don’t have any stats; but I do wonder if those who have the most problem with this are those from a religious tradition that sees sex outside of marriage and abortion as sins. For them, the guilt must be horrific. In that case, they really should see religious counselors or clergy.
I have a Masters Degree in Counseling and I am a retired social service supervisor who, as both worker and supervisor, worked with abused/neglected children, geriatrics, and young families/women on public assistance. I also did volunteer counseling at a domestic violence shelter.
Good grief, CC.
I will be sure to tell my Christian counselor that he shouldn’t be praying with me or telling me more about Christ. Thanks.
The difference between pro-choice and pro-life post-abortion post-abortion counseling? Pro-choice counselors offer empty reassurances such as “you did what was right for you at the time” and “it wasn’t a baby” and try to lead her towards viewing her abortion as a positive decision rather than to find healing and closure, without really acknowledging her feelings and beliefs. Also, most of the spirituality referals are to religious groups who hold a pro-choice viewpoint and engage in political activism such as Catholics for a Free Choice and Religious Coalation for Religious Choice, not “a clergy of her choosing” So much for non-directional counseling.
Why can’t you folks just admit that not women are troubled by their abortions? Is that because you hate abortion so much that you “project” that those women who had abortions really know that what they did was wrong? Seriously, I just don’t understand why you insist that all women who have had abortions and all pro-choice women are “post abortive.”
And I know that you’ll refute this but here it is:
“A study published this fall in the leading journal Social Science and Medicine found little support for the “abortion-as-trauma” framework pushed by anti-choice advocates who claim that a woman who chooses to terminate an unintended and untenable pregnancy is at higher risk for mental health problems because of the procedure, including everything from depression to suicide”
Also, most of the spirituality referals…
How to you know that? And I agree with you. I would not refer to that type of agency.
John Lewandowski writes:
The penitent’s wounds are presented to the priest and he heals them;
CC sez:
Unless “confession” has drastically changed since I left the church, the interaction between priest and penitent is hardly a “counseling” session. Penitent “confesses” what are considered sins by the RC church and priest tells them to say some prayers. There is no providing an opportunity for insight which can lead to self revelation and changed behavior/attitude. The priest is dealing with “sin.”
Confession hasn’t changed since you left the Church, CC; you just never understood it properly.
First of all, John never said that confession was a counseling session; he was saying that it was the opposite of a counseling session. So much for your reading comprehension.
He said that a counseling session treats the symptoms of the disorder, confession the cause.
What a confession consists of is precisely an opportunity for insight – to confront our behavior with the moral law we have transgressed, and the fact that sin makes us a slave to our behavior, but above all with the person of Christ and his love, the love that forgives, then invites the penitent to cast off his old life and follow Him.
This is the insight, the self-revelation that leads to changed behavior. It is often a life-changing experience, especially for those who have been away from God for many years. I know of many people who have said so.
You also haven’t understood the reason for repeated confession. Sin is strong. Many times it takes years before the habit of sin is conquered.
On the other hand, many people spend years in therapy before they get results; often it is without any result, because the core of what is wrong is not reached. And if the core of what is wrong is sin, counseling that ignores sin isn’t going to effect it. (Some priests, like Fr. Benedict Groeschel, who are trained psychologists and therapists, get the best of both worlds).
If I recall correctly, CC, you left the Church, like most people, in your teen years, when you had a teenager’s shallow view of everything. You view of just about everything is still very shallow, but if by any change, you do have some adult understanding, please try to use it. And you might try also looking at the Church again with adult eyes. You might find something there that you didn’t see before.
Women who are hurting and struggling and WANT hope and healing after their abortions WILL seek that out.
Those who feel it was the best decision they ever made, it was right for them, they have never thought about it again or had a moment’s regret will NOT seek help.
Why is that so hard to understand, CC?
I will be sure to tell my Christian counselor that he shouldn’t be praying with me or telling me more about Christ. Thanks
Once again. A secular counselor should not be involved in prayers, mantras, etc. Religious counselors are in the god business which is not the business of those in the “outside world.”
Why is that so hard to understand, CC
It’s not hard to understand at all. As I said, these women should seek professional help. What I don’t understand is the sentiment, found here, that most women regret their abortions? Am I right?
And if the core of what is wrong is sin, counseling that ignores sin isn’t going to effect it
Again, therapy doesn’t take “sin” into consideration as “sin” is a theological construct. Personality disorders and pathologies are viewed from a scientific perspective. Other problems, not as severe, are treated obstacles to be overcome – without reference to sin.
Jared Loughner probably has some type of severe pathology which “sin” has nothing to do with.
CC,
And “infidelity or beating her children or stealing a car” are not even remotely comparable to abortion which is a legal surgical procedure
This is your opinion and many recovered post-abortive women and men will disagree with you. I have never aborted a child but I believe killing your own child is worse than stealing, infidelity or beating others. I also believe that many who beat their children have not dealt with their choice to kill one or more preborn children.
It is no more your place to refer a woman for contraception than it is to refer her to specific religious clergy.
Carla,
Love wins. The truth sets you free. Indeed!!
Indeed!!
Prolifers,
Encourage young prolifers to consider getting degrees in the counseling/social work professions. We need many more in the helping professions who encourage people to make life-affirming decisions and to help offset the damage done by those who support and encourage legalized killing.
Well, I tried several times over the last fifteen minutes to save corrections to the above, but it failed every time! 7th paragraph down should read “He said that a counseling session. . . .”
Next paragraph: moral law we have transgressed, which makes us a slave to our behavior. . .”
Sorry it’s not formatted better.
CC, I never said that all pathology is caused by sin. That’s why I put the “IF” in there. (Another proof of your great reading comprehension). Nor did I ever suggest that therapists should treat people based on the concept of sin — unless the therapist is a priest or religious counselor, as I believe I also said.
Do you read pro-lifers’ posts so fast because you are just so dismissive of us, or because you’re afraid that if you actually thought about what you are reading, you might find out something that would disturb your pre-conceived ideas?
Thanks to whoever fixed my post!
It is no more your place to refer a woman for contraception than it is to refer her to specific religious clergy
The ability for a woman to plan and space her children is as essential to her physical and mental health as good nutrition. If the abortion rate is to be reduced (and frankly I don’t care) then women need access to contraception which includes non chemical methods. If somebody has had a heart attack, a doctor would advise them to eat healthy. As such, family planning is a health issue. A counselor should preface the referral as something that could be accessed if the client does not want to have another baby right away. Teens should definitely be directed towards avoidance of another pregnancy - and yes, that includes abstinence.
CC, I never said that all pathology is caused by sin
And I never said that you said it. I responded to your statement that
“And if the core of what is wrong is sin, counseling that ignores sin isn’t going to effect it” Hence, my comments on pathology vs. sin “if the core of what is wrong is sin.”
Who has reading comprehension issues here?
Why is that so hard to understand, CC
It’s not hard to understand at all. As I said, these women should seek professional help. What I don’t understand is the sentiment, found here, that most women regret their abortions? Am I right?
::eyeroll::
Most, some, not all, many, few, more than a handful, a lot, a bunch, by the thousands, a peck, or a bushel.
Women that find the help they need, in whatever numbers is a good thing, am I right?
So “Exhale” is “pro-abortion” as is any non religious post abortion counseling? Would you consider any post abortion counseling, that does not concur that abortion is killing a baby, as worthless?
Women that find the help they need, in whatever numbers is a good thing, am I right?
Absolutely!
CC,
Hmmmm. Worthless is a pretty strong word. Killing a baby is a pretty strong sentiment as well. It is one thing for ME to say I paid for someone to kill my baby and quite another to call a woman a Baby Killer. Not something I would ever do.
The secular counseling I have had never addressed my abortion and skipped over it as though it had nothing to do with why I drank, had nightmares or struggled with depression, shame and anxiety. It left me continuing to seek other sources of help that addressed the REASON for my anguish. I wouldn’t call it worthless as those counselors had their hearts in the right place but I needed and wanted more and sought it.
CC, I don’t find it hard to believe that many people come to therapy believing that it will help them, when what they really need is a priest. If there is a genuine pathology, then it wouldn’t be caused by sin, though all a person’s actions, including sin, might be a contributing factor in their difficulties. In that case, the person might need both a priest and a psychologist. I hope that clears it up.
Once again, they’ve confused morality with politics. It’s impossible to be neutral with regard to whether abortion is moral or immoral; you either think it’s wrong, or you think it’s OK. There’s no in between. For the Exhale people to claim that because they’re neutral politically (Republican/Democrat, conservative/liberal) they therefore can’t be considered pro-life or pro-choice is false logic.
Would you consider any post abortion counseling, that does not concur that abortion is killing a baby, as worthless?
CC, If a woman you were counseling asked you, “did a human die during my abortion?” how would you answer her?
The ability for a woman to plan and space her children is as essential to her physical and mental health as good nutrition.
There are more ways than contraception and abortion to plan and space children, CC.
I recommend and refer you to prolife clergy of any denomination. It is as essential to your spiritual health (which will in turn positively affect your mental, physical, social and psychological health) as daily excercise.
If a woman wants to use abortion as her contraception, then who are the pro-choicers to judge? If a woman doesn’t feel bad and thinks her abortion was a good and just decision, why should a pro-choicer suggest contraception? What difference does it make?
If it looks to the anti-lifers as if more pro-life counselors are religious, why is that a problem? Is it a problem if more people have white shoelaces or brown shoelaces? Is it more of a problem if more dentists wear a watch than not? Aren’t these merely personal preferences, everyone has a right to make?
See, it’s the pro-choice discomfort that reveals their true thoughts and motivations. Just like those red tablets you chew at the dentist reveal where you’re not brushing properly by leaving a darker more visible mark,
these red flags of pro-choice discomfort are screaming out their unfinished business about morality, murder, God, and guilt.
Would you consider any post abortion counseling, that does not concur that abortion is killing a baby, as worthless?
Yes.
While it is important for a counselor to allow their client to feel what they need to (“affirm their emotions” is how this is sometimes phrased), it is also important for a counselor not to affirm actions or situations as okay when they are not. So that when you’re dealing with a client who is, say, a kleptomaniac, you can affirm what they are feeling–“you, as a person, are okay”–without giving the message “stealing is okay.”
Not every action is okay. Not every choice is fine. Not every situation is acceptable. It is not a therapist’s job to tell someone that things that aren’t okay are. The therapist exists to help the client deal with reality, which may include facing some unpleasant truths. So, yeah, post-abortive counseling that takes the line “abortion is okay” isn’t really doing the job that counseling is supposed to actually do.
I want to use Jayn’s comment at 9:44 am as a jumping off point for what I have to say. (I am assuming (contra CC) that if a woman seeks counseling after an abortion, then she is upset by the abortion.) Jayn comments that she feels God has no place in counseling and “Emotions are always valid, and the best way to resolve them is to examine why the person feels the way they do.”
I have been pregnant, out of wedlock, and in a bad situation in the past. I suffered an early miscarriage, and because of the fact that I was not married (and some of the other difficult circumstances) I never told anyone besides the father and the OB/GYN I saw that I was pregnant. As a result, I struggled through the miscarriage and the period after largely “on my own.”
At first dealing with the aftermath of the miscarriage was difficult simply because of the disparity between what I was feeling and what I reasoned I should be feeling. I was no longer pregnant out of wedlock, all the difficulties surrounding my pregnancy were gone, I would not have to bring a child into the world without intending to raise him/her myself (I intended to put the child up for adoption), the child would not have to deal with not having his or her natural parents. I should have been relieved.
I wasn’t relieved. I’m an educated woman and I was very aware of how not-yet-developed my child was when he or she died. Not being fully developed didn’t make that little nascent person (whether you use this term or the scientific terminology of fetus) any less my child.
Simply knowing the why of how I felt was neither here nor there. In fact, I would have (and still do) found it impossible to talk to anyone who could not acknowledge what I had lost. Assuming that I had lost anything but a unique and priceless human being, my first child (fully developed or not), would simply make any conversation impossible, much less be of help.
That was what helped me the most in the months following my miscarriage- feeling free (free without argument, or confusion, or refutation from others) to acknowledged whom I had lost. I learned this by trial and error, largely on my own, but it is as true today as it was directly following my miscarriage. Only in acknowledging whom I have lost am I able to find any peace.
My understanding is that most people who are pro-abortion/pro-choice argue that no one is fully human (or at least “morally human”??) until he or she is born. To try talk to someone who could not do what I most needed to do myself – acknowledge fully that I had lost a child – would have been (and still would be) unhelpful in the extreme. For this reason, I have a hard time understanding how pro-abortion/pro-choice/whatever counseling options can be at all helpful.
Dear Anon,
Thank you for sharing your heart over the loss of your child through miscarriage. I appreciate it so much!!
Please pick a moniker and come back.
Unless “confession” has drastically changed since I left the church, the interaction between priest and penitent is hardly a “counseling” session. Penitent “confesses” what are considered sins by the RC church and priest tells them to say some prayers.
Here’s a simple, but more in-depth look at the MECHANICS of Confession(Reconcilation):
Pentient comes in, receives blessing from Priest. Penetient confesses (do not use quotations here since it IS a confession of what a person did wrong and not a “confession”).
Priest gives penance and absolution (absoving sins through the grace of Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God the Father). This is the part CC forgot to mention and it’s an extremely important part of the Sacrament.
There is no providing an opportunity for insight which can lead to self revelation and changed behavior/attitude.
In the course of OVER 20 years of receiving the Sacrement of Reconcilation (Confession) I’ve only had 1-3 priest NOT give me some insight into my behavior. I have seen at least 10 priests (that I can think of at the moment) for this Sacrement over the course of those years and the MAJORITY of them DO give insight into behavior and ideas of how to deal with temptation.
If a priest feels a person needs more indepth counseling they will suggest it.
The priest is dealing with “sin.” A therapist deals with personality disorder or pathology in which case medications would be part of the equation.
Sin might stem from a personality disorder, this is true. But without a person going to the Sacrament of Reconcilation the stain of that sin remains. You can try to help/cure the mind, but if the soul is in disorder it won’t do much for a person as a whole.
With personality disorders, I think therapy and Reconcilation can (and often do) work hand in hand to help the person.
And as many of my non Catholic friends say – why wouldn’t a person continue to sin if they know that they can just return to confession and get clean?
There’s 2 types of “repeat offenders”
The first time is the one who DOES go in with the intention to change, but struggles with a particular sin. They have a genuine desire to be a better person, but keep going to Confession for that sin to keep trying to open their hearts and souls up to God’s grace to OVERCOME that sin and temptation. (I know people who were repeat confessions of a particular sin until they finally overcame it…it took time, extra help and the grace of the Sacrament for them to do that, but through hard work, much prayer and those graces and help they did–it all worked together). (Of course, this was between them and God and whoever they told).
The second type is the type who has the mindset “Oh well, I’ll do this, then just go to Confession and it’ll be gone.” they aren’t going with a truly repentant heart and that is something that’s between them and God.
A therapist doesn’t have that “power” nor should they.
A priest is NOT forgiving sins out of their own will or power, but through GOD’S will and power.
The priest is the vessel through which God works His mercy. It is ONLY through God’s grace that a priest is able to absolve a person’s sin and ONLY within the context of the Sacrament of Reconcilation.
Here’s some Biblical passages about Confession (Reconcilation):
The Gospel of John Chapter 20 verses 22-23
The Book of James Chapter 5 verse 16
Er… at the risk of adding more to the side-topic: CC, if a Catholic goes to a priest with the mindset of “feeling free to sin again, since they can always get clean”, then their confession is invalid (i.e. worthless, where no sins are forgiven at all), and probably sacrilegious (i.e. gravely sinful, in and of itself). It’s basic Catholic teaching: a valid sacramental Confession requires the proper intent (i.e. true contrition for the sins: a hatred of the sins, and a firm resolution to avoid them in the future). It’s one thing to fall again, out of human weakness; but it’s quite something else to “give yourself advance permission” to sin (which is diametrically opposed to the necessary contrition). The very idea that someone could mock God by treating the Sacrament of Confession as a sort of mechanical spiritual car-wash (regardless of our relationship with Jesus Christ, Who instituted and empowers the Sacrament) is–forgive me–based on ignorance.
As such, family planning is a health issue. A counselor should preface the referral as something that could be accessed if the client does not want to have another baby right away.
I don’t have a problem with people wanting to have a hand in planning their family–responsbile parenthood is part of that. However, I also think if we’re talking about health versus a so-called “quick fix” then I’d say the only methods worth recommending is Natural Family Planning or complete abstainence (abstainence of all sexual activity being the only thing that prevents pregnancies and STDs 100 percent).
NFP provides a healthful alternative to contraceptions in that a woman’s charting can avail her to information she might not have otherwise. An NFP chart could reveal a health issue earlier than people would normally detect it (case in point, one of my sister’s NFP chart revealed something was off, she went to the doc and found out she had breast cancer. The doc said most people would never detect it as early as she did. She’s been in remission and does walks to help raise money for breast cancer research). My NFP chart revealed hormonal issues to my doc, who had me tested and gave me advice to help me readjust those issues.