Straw man extraordinaire: Pro-lifers think condoms abort babies?
Staunch anti-choice advocates have floated the idea that hormonal birth control is some form of abortion, or that it was because women had access to birth control in the first place that they now seek abortions because those preventative measures failed.
So, by an extension of their logic, even barrier methods like condoms are a kind of de facto abortion since preventing fertilization is basically aborting a fetus. Really, who can argue with that kind of logic?
Is it too much to hope that the next move toward transparency within the anti-choice movement will be an acknowledgement [sic] that the fuel for their fire is a deep-seated hatred of women, a fear of sexual liberation and a desire to compel pregnancy at all costs?
~Jessica Pieklo, Care2.com, May 16
[Image via onlinemedicinetips.com]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
preventing fertilization is basically aborting a fetus
LMBO what a sad display of ignorance!
Please someone get this woman a biology textbook, stat.
I love people. I love sex. I am very sexually liberated–God has given me a wonderful way to channel all my sexual energy into a safe, secure relationship where I don’t have to worry about STDs or what might happen if I get pregnant. I find my liberation in God’s plan for marriage and design for my body. I wish that everyone who weren’t called to singleness could experience the sexual liberation I know! I don’t want to compel anyone to get pregnant, but I recommend it to any married woman I know. God’s plan for sex and for children is a source of great joy to me, a lasting joy because I know I will never regret being open to life and to my husband. He will never leave me apart from death, and I am likewise bound to him, and our children are that love made manifest and given souls. If they want promiscuity, disease, broken hearts, broken homes, fatherless children, and to die alone and face the judgment of the God they never knew, I can’t stop them. But I hope that’s not the path they choose, and I will do what I can to prevent them from taking that path over the dead bodies of their children.
My husband and I practice Natural Family Planning (NFP). I have a basic idea of when I’m most fertile and least fertile. If we’ve determined prayerfully that it’s not the right time for a baby, we refrain from sexual intercourse until the least fertile phase. However, should we end up pregnant, we know that we would raise and love the child because that’s our call as married human beings.
We don’t have to worry about artificial hormones or skin issues (of what can happen with using a condom) we can have truly naked (no barriers) giving and receiving love making when we do make love. The fully giving of oneself and the fully receiving of the other person (everything about them including their fertility).
If that’s not enjoying “sexual freedom” (as they put it) then what is? Being able to have sex with five different people if one wants? Ah-ah. I know too much about oxytocin and sexual memories and scares–so I’ll pass! (Besides I don’t want to engage in sexual activity, that is, make love, with anyone except my husband).
“or that it was because women had access to birth control in the first place that they now seek abortions because those preventative measures failed.”
She almost had it there, almost!! If she hadn’t gone down the wormhole of pro-abortion lies she might have gotten the point. It’s Guttmacher, not the pro-lifers, that confirms most women were using birth control before seeking an abortion to end their pregnancy and kill their child. What’s becoming transparent is that abortion fans are nuts.
Is it too much to hope that the next move toward transparency within the anti-choice movement will be an acknowledgement [sic] that the fuel for their fire is a deep-seated hatred of women, a fear of sexual liberation and a desire to compel pregnancy at all costs?
Well…given that pro-lifers don’t actually think any of that, then yes, it’s way too much to hope that anyone will admit to thinking it. You can’t be guilty of something you didn’t do.
And again, the pretzel logic is at work. “You support the right to life for the unborn, therefore you hate women!” Honestly, can this “argument” just die already? I’m gonna have to start getting out my logic textbook soon.
Ugh, how obtuse can you be? Seriously?! Do they not understand biology? Why do we hate women again? Because we think their babies have the right to live and they shouldn’t have to sacrifice their children to appease the patriarchy? I’m sorry, how is pro-life anti-feminist again? UGH. I am so sick of these people. I might take a break from reading anything about abortion for a while. It’s really making me frustrated.
What utter nonsense! This poor girl somehow never learned to think.
Folks, this is off-topic, but my beautiful daughter not only graduated from college on Sunday, her boyfriend proposed to her (he got down on one knee and gave her his grandmother’s ring, no less). And he is prolife! :-)
You can’t abort something that’s not alive. If an egg + sperm have not joined to form a new human being, then there is nothing to abort. This is basic, high school biology.
Not all pro-lifers oppose condoms, either. As a Catholic, I oppose all forms of contraception, but I don’t believe that condoms are abortifacent. I believe they violate the unitive aspect of the marital act by placing a physical barrier between husband and wife, preventing them from being “one flesh.” Thank God for NFP – we’ve used it to both achieve and avoid pregnancy for 8 years (this month)! My husband and I used both the Pill and condoms when we were Protestants, and we MUCH prefer NFP. It’s greatly improved our marriage.
Incidentally, condoms in and of themselves are not evil; they have legitimate uses. I had a transvaginal ultrasound at my OB’s office last week, and the ultrasound wand was covered with a sterile condom. That’s a very legitimate use for it.
“Incidentally, condoms in and of themselves are not evil; they have legitimate uses. I had a transvaginal ultrasound at my OB’s office last week, and the ultrasound wand was covered with a sterile condom. That’s a very legitimate use for it.”
LOL, love it!
JoAnna,
I guess they skipped biology?
And yeah I agree. Not all pro-lifers believe that. I am Protestant and think that contraception within marriage (NFP is technically contraception too!) is alright. There are methods I don’t agree with, but I’m pretty sure most pro-lifers don’t equate condoms with abortion. She should just listen to what we are saying.
Sure, there are squabbles among pro-lifers about what – if any – form of contraception is ok but I think we can all agree that once a life is formed that that life must be protected. Most pro-lifers also offer ways to live a better lifestyle (abstinence until marriage, NFP, etc) but most of us, once a life has been created, will fight for that life whether you’re married or not, whether you were on the Pill or not, whether the condom broke or not – how the baby was conceived does not change the fact that it’s a baby.
This woman is constructing a straw man (among other logical fallacies). She is trying to take the argument away from what it is at its core – protect the innocent life that has been created!!!
congrats phillymiss
A great big congratulations to you and to your daughter, phillymiss!! :)
“Incidentally, condoms in and of themselves are not evil; they have legitimate uses. I had a transvaginal ultrasound at my OB’s office last week, and the ultrasound wand was covered with a sterile condom. That’s a very legitimate use for it.”
I have also been informed that they are wrapped around guns in certain areas to keep them safe from the elements. I don’t know how accurate it is, but if it’s true, that is also a legitimate use ;)…a quick google search confirms at least somewhat.
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-576157.html (link to a post about protecting your barrel with a condom)
(NFP is technically contraception too!
Libertybelle,
Um, not really. Contraception basically means “against conception” (that is conception of a child).
NFP isn’t against conception in and of itself. It’s used to know when someone is least fertile, therefore, most unlikely to conceive (but doesn’t use anything to bar conception itself) or it can be used to achieve conception by the couple having sexual intercourse when the woman is most fertile.
Unless someone uses contraception WITH NFP, it’s not really contraception because it doesn’t do anything to bar conception, all it does is determine when a woman is most and least fertile–the couple themselves make the rest of the decisions on whether or not to engage in sexual union in the most fertile time (thus more likely to conceive) or decides to engage in the sexual union in the least fertile time (thus less likely to conceive).
P.S. Congratulations Phillymiss to your daughter.
Libertybelle,
Sorry to nit-pick, but NFP is not contraception. There is nothing artificial to prevent conception because the couple is not having sex. Abstaining from sex is not contraception.
NFP cooperates with the natural cycles of fertility and works with it — it doesn’t try to circumvent fertility by means of chemicals or barriers. Big and important difference. Contraception mentality says that we should be able to have sex whenever we want with no “risk” of conceiving a child. Pleasure only. That’s why it’s wrong. Sex is more than pleasure.
MIT,
You are absolutely correct. I just meant that, for the purposes of pointing out to pro-choicers who claim that we basically want to enslave women and turn them into baby-making machines, we aren’t all against the idea of choosing when to have children.
I agree that NFP is the way to go and it is definitely superior to contraception. But the comparison comes from the fact that we are still choosing when to have kids (by choosing to not have sex while the wife is most fertile in the case of NFP). So basically, to pro-choicers, we aren’t against women agreeing when to have kids, we aren’t trying to enslave them. That was my point. :)
Jen,
I totally agree with you that NFP is great and wonderful and is not harmful. Read my reply to Mother in Texas. I’m a fan of NFP! I agree with you guys!!! I guess I shouldn’t have put it that way.
But, I’m just curious here, don’t you think that there is a bonding aspect to sex between married partners? That pleasure is indeed one goal (though clearly not the only one) of sex between married partners? Isn’t pleasure an admirable (and biblical – read Song of Solomon) goal of sex? I think that the pleasure of sex is just as important to build that bond between man and wife.
If one wishes to prevent conception, NFP is the best way to go. It is not contraceptive in itself, but it can be used to prevent conception.
“the couple themselves make the rest of the decisions on whether or not to engage in sexual union in the most fertile time (thus more likely to conceive) or decides to engage in the sexual union in the least fertile time (thus less likely to conceive).”
Wait, you only get to do it once a month?
Young Christian Woman,
That’s what I was wondering…. I think that there is a longer period when you’re not fertile but I don’ know. NFP is very confusing to me…. :/
Haha yeah that’s what I’ve been trying to say! You just stated it more succinctly. Thanks!
NFP – if you are avoiding conception for a very good reason, then into phase III, after ovulation is the time for many days of intimacy. Depending on the woman and her cycle – in the beginning of her cycle they may have intimacy. Of course, when open to life, the whole time is available for marital intimacy!
Technically, if using the thermal-symptom method, you want 4 days of elevated temperatures, which places a woman past the time of ovulation for intimacy. We learned over 18 years ago, so the details of the NFP taught today may differ.
It is so accurate, we conceived our youngest daughter with NFP. All natural, nothing artificial, and union between partners is much more wonderful and unitive with NFP. We also used to contracept – we were stupid and did not understand the teaching…
Definitely worth understanding and using. Beautiful, just beautiful. Bonding, for sure!
oh – and how silly for them to think that condoms equate to abortion. What are they thinking? Or maybe, they are not thinking much at all. Biology anyone? ;)
Phillymiss – congratulations on your daughter’s graduation and the beautiful way your future son-in-law proposed. Lovely, truly lovely!
oh and thank you all for the smiling-induced legitimate use for condoms! ;)
Libertybelle,
Of course there’s a bonding aspect to sex! It’s designed to make two become one! Can’t get more bonded than that. That’s one of the chief reasons sex outside of marriage is so harmful and irreverent.
I was saying that sex isn’t only about pleasure. It’s both unitive and procreative and the two aspects cannot be separated (without terrible consequences). We are living with the consequences of the contraception mentality: want sex, don’t want kids. Want pleasure with no obligations. Anything that gets in the way of pleasure must be thwarted or destroyed. That’s why contraception naturally leads to abortion. That’s why the Church teaches that sex is both unitive and procreative. Husband and wife must respect the true purpose of sex and not abuse or distort it.
That doesn’t mean sex isn’t awesomely pleasurable and bonding and just plain fun!! God loves us so much He made sex a lot of fun!
joyfromillinois,
Thanks! If I’m getting married in 81 days, is it too late to start learning that?! (started the pill 2 weeks ago and it just doesn’t sit right with me).
Libertybelle, Congratulations on your upcoming wedding!
I would get in contact with an NFP instructor right away to start learning how to chart your cycles.
Jen,
Gotcha! Thanks for clarifying. :) I do understand what you’re saying about procreative aspect of it.
Lauren,
Thanks! I’m thrilled to say the least – especially since I’m marrying a man 100% committed to defending the unborn! He wants to be a pro-life missionary. God is so good. :)
Alright sounds good. Where do I find one of those? :) hehe I have a book but boy is it tedious to go through!
The pill didn’t sit well with my mother–she doesn’t do well on medications and tries to take as little as possible unless she’s really ill. She and my father have been married for nearly 40 years and they have three children–after my younger brother was born they’ve used condoms on a regular basis. I’m proud to say that they still have a great love life and I’d like to have a marriage like theirs, someday.
Jennifer,
That’s wonderful about your parents! I love marriages that stay strong for so many years! My parents are the same way.
Actually, the Pill hasn’t had any negative side affects (the dosage is extremely low!) so that has been nice.
It’s just that the more I think about putting synthetic hormones into my body, and the more studies that come out about the harmful side effects, I just would rather not use it. NFP seems like a much better way to go!
Libertybelle,
Congratulations! :)
I received study materials (and later took an actual course) through the Couple-to-Couple League. They’re an awesome resource (teach sympto-thermal NFP, and you get a year’s worth of them studying your charts and advising you on mistakes,etc when you take a course). Just advising in case you aren’t sure where to learn :)
http://ccli.org/
For all interested in learning more about “NFP” and the like, check out the Pope Paul VI institute. They don’t do “NFP” per se, but they teach about fertility awareness and appreciation. http://www.popepaulvi.com I believe.
Libertybelle:
I used the pill for the first year of my marriage, and I wish so much I could change it. There is evidence that it can prevent an embryo from implanting in the uterine lining–meaning that a tiny baby can’t get his or her start in the womb and is flushed out without his or her mom ever knowing. There is no way I’d ever use hormonal birth control again (or an IUD, which works purely by preventing implantation). No one told me the truth–not my doctor, who refused to even get me a pamphlet on NFP after two visits and pushed the pill; not my parents, or my pastor, or my mentors, or my husband, all of whom just told me to use the pill.
If you prefer reading, I recommend Toni Weschler’s Taking Charge of Your Fertility, which is secular but very good. That’s basically where we learned what we know. Temping didn’t work for me, so I would just use fluids/cervical position, which I think is the Creighton method. I’ve never really used it to avoid, and don’t have great luck succeeding, but I do have a very good idea of how my body works much of the time. If I really needed to prevent NFP is what I would use.
If your cycle is normal you will have two full cycles under your belt before you get married, so you’ll have at least some idea what your body is doing. If you don’t feel confident by the time your wedding rolls around, you can just wait a while to start that part of your relationship–or not. Once you learn to recognize the fertile cervical fluids, you’ll be able to at least use all the time in your cycle after that dries up. Once you know what you’re doing you won’t have to abstain for more than a week if you are regular–maybe only a couple days if you are okay with a little “risk.”
But it’s a lot more fun to not prevent at all ;)
Libertybell – get off the pill when it will not affect your cycle/body – maybe when you hit the week of ‘dummy’ pills, don’t start a new month.
Couple to Couple league is the group I learned from, and you can find a class in your area. Yes – you can learn on-line, I think, but this is a great time to start charting/get to know your body and work with your husband-to-be to learn and get used to things. When My husband and i took the class, we took it together – and NFP has the couple working together to chart/discuss, etc. Also in the beginning, we added a day before intimacy – ‘just in case’ while we were avoiding pregnancy. But we did not have to do that (it was me, at the beginning, adjusting to my husband’s spiritual awakening on sexual matters…. I was a little slow getting to the party!). ;)
For the non-intimacy parts to a given cycle, the couple can go back to dating behavior, which actually keeps the fun/communication going in a very fundamental way during a marriage.
If you are 81 days from being married, then that means that you will roughly have 65 days on NFP to understand/know/grasp the method and to know YOUR body’s signals. May I suggest that you and your fiance pray (which you should be doing anyway), and prayers before lovemaking is a lovely thing.
My husband and i understood NFP from class so well, that during the second or third cycle, we purposely used NFP to conceive our youngest, and we have been using NFP ever since (she is now 17+).
God had a lovely way of helping us to be open to LIFE and the possibilities of Him working with us regarding family. It certainly laid a beautiful foundation for pro-life work. All-natural and working with a woman’s individual body and cycle. Truly a gift.
oh – and I know two couples who were using NFP and knew they were in the middle of their cycle when they got married. They both wanted to consummate their marriage on their wedding day – and one couple was blessed by being pregnant, and they are expecting any day now (if they have not already had their baby). Let God help you with your decisions! It’s all good! ;)
LibertyBelle,
I just started using the Creighton Model Fertility Care System. You can read more about it here (there’s a link on the side to find a teacher in your area: http://www.creightonmodel.com/
I was on the pill for a long time but I started to have moral and health reservations about it. I started to chart my basal temperatures and that actually worked great for me b/c I had a very clear uptick in temperature at ovulation, but I wanted to do something more comprehensive. I still take my temps while I’m learning, but Creighton has been great. You basically chart external observations of cervical mucus – very easy. The good thing about Creighton too is that it works for everyone – regular/irregular. I know some people have actually discovered that they weren’t ovulating when they started using the system and were able to seek treatment.
Good luck w/ everything!
Libertybelle,
Congrats on the upcoming wedding! God bless you and your husband-to-be with much joy and love. I’ll chime in with the others and encourage you to contact Couple-to-Couple League and learn about NFP. Start NOW! Learning about your cycles is fascinating and revealing. It’s ain’t rocket science! But it sure does tell you a lot about your own body.
Then the task of conceiving/not conceiving/parenting becomes a shared experience between you and your husband. You’re in it together and when approached prayerfully, with surrender to God’s will, it brings you even closer together.
Bless you both. Have a wonderful wedding. :)
Thank you all for your help! There is a lot of information out there and it’s great being supported. Lots of great ideas here.
My husband-to-be and I are both absolutely praying about what to do regarding this. We trust Him with all things and are looking forward to serving Him together in all matters – even our fertility and intimacy.
Taking the class together sounds like a blast! I will look into that. I think it would be really helpful for him to know how my body works so we can work together on this. And unfortunately we do need to prevent pregnancy for now, but obviously will be open to life if God decides to surprise us! :)
joyofillinois @ 1:13 pm,
For the non-intimacy parts to a given cycle, the couple can go back to dating behavior, which actually keeps the fun/communication going in a very fundamental way during a marriage.
The definition of (sexual) “dating behavior” could be hand-holding, every-thing-but-intercourse, or actual intercourse depending on the couple. I’m assuming you mean the former (the most chaste definition)?
@LibertyBelle: Protestant fistbump! ;)
And congrats on your upcoming marriage. My prayers and best wishes to you both.
@Alice Protestant fistbump back! ;) Haha that made me laugh
When me and my fiance attended mass with my grandparents, he whispered, “Hey, we’re Catholic rebel buddies!” and gave me a fistbump
(no offense to Catholics on here – many of our friends are Catholics and we respect the church. We just have fun while acknowledging our differences!)
Thanks! :) We can use the prayers that’s for sure!!
Phillymiss,
What beautiful news!!! Congratulations! Now you have the excitement and joy of a wedding to plan.
As for the deluded young woman who thinks that preventing conception is the same thing as killing a child, such ignorance abounds. Facts don’t matter to such people. Hers isn’t a crack in the prism of logic. Hers is an emotional and psychological issue that causes her to ignore logic, facts, and reason.
Since the pro-choicers is so much smarter than us (lol), why don’t they ever “out” this pro-life secret plan of slavery and world domination? There must be a website or chat room somewhere!
I mean, what if I wanted to compel women to have babies so I can send them to the army when they grow up? How do I meet and connect with like-minded people? LOL!! (sarcasm alert!)
Libertybelle, I would caution against pill use. Its very unhealthy and dangerous for your body. I was on the pill for years even when a virgin because I was told it would help with my horrible menstrual cramps. It did but what damage did I do to my body in the meanwhile? Knowing I may have aborted one of my babies wen I used it early in my marriage… it makes me feel awful. I look at my little boy and don’t know if any of his siblings were killed.
Congratulations on your upcoming wedding!
And congrats to you to Phillymiss on the new addition to your family (well when they set a date I guess!) My husband got down on one knee when he proposed too. SEXY! That never goes out of style!
Oh, and how can I be upgraded to “staunch?” Everyone thinks I’m ardent, maybe even zealous, but so far the title of ‘staunch’ eludes me. Not once has anyone referred to me personally as staunch and I’m feeling unappreciated and left out. Help?
I could never understand why PC’ers say we hate women. Do I hate my daughter? Mother? Sisters? Myself? What is this supposed to mean?
Congrats, Libertybelle, and please don’t become a “Bridezilla!”
Janet – yes – chaste dating behavior! movies, walks, talks, dinner, exercise, music, cooking, driving, hiking, reading, coffee, tea, walking the dog, visiting friends & relatives, sports, lectures, recitals, dance lessons, fairs, hobbies, church, tennis, bowling, concerts, art, gardening …
you name it – everything chaste, everything but sexual intimacy! ;)
@Ninek hahaha well let’s start one!! Make baby machines to churn them out to war! (way sarcasm). Seriously, of all the ridiculous claims I’ve heard… that one doesn’t even make sense. We want to save babies to kill them? Really? And what war are we fighting exactly, as pro-lifers? Only an ideological/spiritual war and we win that in the end. ;)
(and I want to be staunch too! I’ll call you staunch if you call me staunch then we’ll be even and appreciated hehe)
Also, @Phillymiss, super congrats! :) Blessings to them. You guys must be so happy and you must be thrilled to have your daughter marrying a good man. (my fiance got on one knee too – glad he’s not the only gentleman still out there! hehe)
Really, who can argue with that kind of logic?
Who indeed? How can you argue with logic that isn’t there. I guess by her thinking, if a couple decides to have a baby and then change their mind before the woman gets pregnant, they have just aborted a child.
Oh and this pro-life bashing is getting carried away. Pro-lifers do not hate women. 1) No one decided that only women can get pregnant, it’s not targeting women if they are physically the only ones pregnancy applies to. and 2) there are plenty of women who are against abortion, can you accuse them all of being self-loathing women. This argument is used to make pro-lifers feel guilty and to shut down any real discussion.
These accusations can go back and forth all day, anyone can just make that claim but the truth lies in people’s actions. So what are pro-lifers doing that is anti-woman besides fighting against abortions? Actions speak louder than words so if the pro-life community is really against women what else are they doing that is oppressing women? What rights are pro-lifers fighting to take away besides the ‘right’ to abortion? How is it this hatred only manifests itself through one issue? If pro-choice people really think this is about hatred of women, what other evidence do they have for this, because abortion alone is a pretty thin example.
“Is it too much to hope that the next move toward transparency within the anti-choice movement will be an acknowledgement [sic] that the fuel for their fire is a deep-seated hatred of women, a fear of sexual liberation and a desire to compel pregnancy at all costs?”
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!Sarcasm Alert!
I for one am doing all I can to keep my wife barefoot and pregnant, but that woman has a sixth sense for finding foot wear.
Seriously though,
I just gave my #3 daughter freedom to lose her virginity and encouraged her to have sex whenever she desires.
She has been waiting 23 years.
I hope the groom is up to the task.
[A female theologian presided over the ceremony and she, as well as the bride, groom, and I, were all barefoot (half the battle is won, can pregnancy be far behind?) to boot. It wasn’t my idea and no one asked me for my input, but when Jesus showed up I figured if HE was down for it, so was I.]
I may not yet know how to love my wife and four daughters, but I do not hate them.
The only women I don’t care for are the chauvenistic female sexists who claim to be egalitarian, but are actually egocentric misandrists and bigots.
Just disagreeing with them is evidence of hate in their alternate reality.
Ladies, just keep your uterus out of my wallet and we will all get along splendidly.
@Phillymiss hahahaha no need to worry there! I’m not stressing a bit. I’ve got my groom and my family’s blessing. Do I need more? (no indeed!) I plan to fully enjoy my wedding day (and, of course, what follows ;) ).
phillymiss says: May 17, 2011 at 10:08 am
Folks, this is off-topic, but my beautiful daughter not only graduated from college on Sunday, her boyfriend proposed to her (he got down on one knee and gave her his grandmother’s ring, no less). And he is prolife!
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Congrats to you and yours Phillymiss.
On Friday, May 13th my wife and I just released the first of our four daughters into wedded bliss.
My son-in-laws biological mother attempted to abort him, but he dodged the bullet.
I am not a psychic, but I see many children in their future.
There is some poetic justice, sweet irony and eternal destiny wrapped up in this marriage.
Like powerful weapons in the hand of a mighty warrior are the children of ones youth.
No weapon which comes against them will prosper.
Their parents will stand confident when their children engage the enemy in the market place.
They will not shrink back from death, but will boldy take their stand among the assembly of the righteous and overcome by their testimony and the blood of the LAMB.
They will overcome in the land of the living.
LibertyBelle – I think you meant that NFP is birth control. Birth control is not the same as contraception; contraception is just one method (and an immoral method, according to my faith) of birth control. NFP can be another form, but it is a moral means to that end. If you want to learn more, I recommend reading Dr. Janet Smith’s excellent article “Contraception: Why Not?” It explains the difference quite clearly.
When I was Protestant and wanted to get off the Pill, I taught myself the Fertility Awareness Method (basically the secular version of NFP) using Toni Weschler’s book “Taking Charge of Your Fertility.” My husband and I used condoms until we were comfortable with charting, and obviously we’ve never used any contraception since becoming Catholic. :)
I happen to have a close female friend who is asexual. The same condition that renders her asexual also renders her sterile. It just so happens that she has told me she has no interest in the abortion issue.
Kwn, congrats also on your daughter’s loss of virginity :)
So glad we have staunch pro-life advocates like ninek on here, and that we can celebrate together.
Pray for discernment for DH and I as we continue to consider adoption.
Libertybelle,
Denominationally unaffiliated Jesus is LORD and Savior ‘fistpump’ and congrats on your engagement.
I am both a grizzled and a gruntled advocate for pre-natal humans.
hahaha yor bro ken! haha that fistbump right back at you too! Amen and Amen! :)
Hooray! Both LibertyBelle and Young Christian Woman have validated my staunchness!! Lol!
Now, I’ve just tried to join the He-Man-Woman-Hater’s Club, and guess what?! Turns out they’re pro-abortion! Darn!
So I’ve noticed some comments on here about Natural Family Planning and I’m a bit curious & have some questions.
I’ve been on a contraceptive pill for a few months now since my husband and I got married in February, but having learned that it changes my uterine lining, I’m a bit concerned. My previous Ob/Gyn told me he wouldn’t give me anything that was an abortaficient because he’s Catholic, but maybe he doesn’t realize that changing my uterine lining can do that?
While I know I can completely trust God with mine and my husband’s ability to have children or not, and know God could make my pill not work if He deemed it the right time for children, I’ve just been uncomfortable taking my pill each day. However, I’ve also had issues with my periods since I was 10 where I would bleed (heavily) for months on end. Just about 3 years ago I received hormonal treatment (non-birth control related), which worked perfectly to regulate me, and was then prescribed this specific pill to match my hormonal and fertility needs when I got married.
My fear is that I would try NFP and quit taking the pill, and then my hormones would go out of whack again and I’d be stuck bleeding constantly again (as that’s what’s always happened). Any suggestions as to what I could do?
SouthernGal – check out “Fertility, Cycles, and Nutrition” by Marilyn Shannon. She has several excellent suggestions about diet changes and nutritional supplements to help with the issues you mention. Also, the Pope Paul VI Institute mentioned earlier specializes in helping women with the issues you have WITHOUT resorting to potentially abortifacent hormone therapy (i.e., the Pill).
JoAnna: Thanks! I’ll look into it!
Any other suggestions are welcome too!
“and know God could make my pill not work if He deemed it the right time for children”
Uh, I really have to pounce on that phrase. BUT, the real problem here is not with your motive for taking the Pill, right? You are only trying to cope with very real physical problems that cause you pain and distress. The real problem is the medical community that seeks to “pill” our bodies into submission. It doesn’t treat the problem: it masks it. I’m not blaming your own individual doctor per se, because he or she is probably just following with what she’s been told to do by others, by faculty by the salesman at the pharmaceutical company, by fellow doctors.
Our health can be complicated to manage. Too often, our own doctors stop at their prescription pad when they need to look further. I have a chronic disease but I don’t want to take the drugs available on the market for people like me. Not one of them cures the disease. Every one of them has side effects, some of them are eventually deadly. For example, my disease won’t destroy my liver, but one of the commonly prescribed meds for it will destroy my liver. The “cure” is not only worse, it’s not even a cure. I feel that modern medicine has failed me, failed a lot of us.
All the “pro-choicers” blogging and whining about reproductive choice, they don’t care about our real reproductive choice. They’ll come out fighting for the right to kill their own children, but will they lift a finger to see that women get better medical care for their real reproductive problems? Nope. You deserve better than a pill and a wave.
Make all the lame jokes you want but, wasn’t it the Pope and the Catholic Church that said condoms were the work of Satan? They are the ones who equated condoms and abortion as evil.
NFP is a crap shoot. Let’s not pretend that it is any more reliable than gambling. Now before all you married women jump down my throat with “It’s works for me and my husband!!!” It’s nothing more than metered out abstinence and does not work for anyone who is not married or wants to live their lives as they see fit. NFP would not work for your average college student or most other sexually active adults in this country. Heck it wouldn’t even work for a married couple who wants to have sex just once a week. I mean why don’t you just promote the old “pull, punch, and pray” method or women stuffing lemons in themselves… Because they are old world ignorant, lack of science methods. So good luck with that… mom.
yes- the Na-pro technology (short for Natural Procreation) is done at the Pope Paul VI Institute. They provide natural hormones, when needed and specialized surgery, when needed.
OB/GYN’s sometimes put the possible abortifacent aspect of the non-natural pill on the ‘back-burner’ if they think that the primary purpose of the pill is for regulation of cycles. That of course does not negate the effects. Just read the insert on the pills, and they talk about changing the endometrium with the pill…
You will probably chart and have blood tests – but they can pinpoint quite a bit of what is going on and help you regain natural health. I know a couple of young women who are on natural progesterone and have had their periods be normal, without anything artificial. Let us know how you do!
look for a na-pro specialist – maybe there is one near you. It is an up-and-coming specialty – and we just sent a nurse to get that training. Hopefully she will open a practice here…
oh and my former OB/GYN wanted to have me on the pill, despite my being a DES daughter and having moral objections. It was easy for him, and he did not want to do things naturally. He prescribed the pill for contraception too for his Catholic patients – which he should not have…It would have been much better if he ran a Tepyac style practice with everything being natural within the Church’s teaching. He would have had a fabulous niche-business. Instead he tried to do things without listening to his patients. He even tried to push un-neccesary surgery (for me). He ended up leaving town and his business crumbled. I could not wait to switch doctors.
So, dont take birth control… take the birth control issued by the Catholic Church?
NFP is a crap shoot. Let’s not pretend that it is any more reliable than gambling.
http://www.contracept.org/risks.php
I’ve been reading these comments and until now, I didn’t know that IUD work purely by preventing implantation. My sister has an IUD and when we were talking about birth control before, she told me that her doctor is a member of her church and pro-life. I told her that birth control’s final attempt at “preventing” pregnancy is preventing implantation and she waved it off and said that is very rare and that her doctor would have told her if it was true. I’m just wondering if anyone could provide me with more information because I don’t want to overreact, but I want to prevent any future regret she may have and also, if this really is true, prevent any unintended abortions due to an IUD.
Lastly, thanks, everyone, for all the info on NFP! My husband and I have been considering it for a while but we don’t really know anyone who does it so we haven’t had much first-hand information.
Birth-control from the church? Who are you addressing? and what comment are you addressing?
Women who have a 3 months’ period is not normal. one can regulate her menstrual cycle to normal by using natural hormones. They do not mask her cycle – but fix it. And given correctly, they do not produce the ‘affect’ of tricking your body into thinking it’s pregnant, like the pill and other contraceptive hormones. This is not for contraception – but hormones to bring the body back to health – a world of difference.
The Pope Paul VI Institute is not a church- it’s a medical facility named after a Pope who taught about human life and fertility/marital relations/morality in sexuality etc.
Hell all,
I’d really like to make a point that I feel a lot of you are missing and rolling your eyes at. The author said
Is it too much to hope that the next move toward transparency within the anti-choice movement will be an acknowledgement [sic] that the fuel for their fire is a deep-seated\ hatred of women, a fear of sexual liberation and a desire to compel pregnancy at all costs?
1) People have differant reasons for being pro-choice but I think the “hatred of women” line is an allusion to the belief that forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy to term is in grave violation of her bodily autonomy. Abortion is not about a woman’s right to ‘kill her child’ as you like to say, but her right as a human being to not have to ever use her own body to keep another alive.
2) Isnt the fear of sexual liberation and desire to compel pregnancy line actually kind of true? In reality don’t many pro-lifers think that people should not have sex with any one other than their spouse or someone they don’t wish to have a baby with? Don’t they believe that when married people are having sex they should desire pregnancy or at least be open to it?
i understand I just made some generalizations about your cause. I understand that you don’t agree with most pro-choice arguments but they are certainly not
Run like heck from IUD’s! They were removed from the market years ago due to infections, perforations of the uterus and other things. While they MAY be safer now – they definitely interfere with implantation. And if they are also hormonal, they also work in that way also.
Check it out. The OB/GYN’s are so non-chalant about this, it’s unbelievable. Natural is very good. and if this person is Catholic – one can not help others to use contraception for contraception’s sake.
Why they are advertising IUD’s on TV is beyond me. Just look into the history of the IUD and when it was pulled from the market.
@Southern Gal
I had the SAME issue in college!! I had the bleeding for months thing happening a couple of years before I got married and went on the Pill. Going on the Pill was a Big mistake! I wasn’t using it for contraception, and it stopped the bleeding, so I thought it would be okay. The problem is that you have medical/hormonal issues that need real treatment, not the band-aid that the Pill would provide. I got married and was told by my doctor that I had to stay on the pill or the bleeding would resume, so I felt trapped. I was on the pill for over a year after marriage and can honestly say that something felt very wrong deep inside about it. I felt resentful toward my husband, had low libido, mood swings, weight gain. Felt really blah and unattractive, but didn’t know why.
When we moved to another city, we changed churches and found out about the Couple to Couple League class being held the following weekend. We were interested in finding out about it and learned at that class all the negative side-effects of the Pill. A stand out moment in the class was having one of the instructors say, “if you’re on the Pill and you don’t believe what I’m saying about it’s side effects and risks, go home tonight and unravel and super small and very long little pamphlet of information that comes in the box with your pill packs and read the small print for yourself what the Pill company says THEMSELVES about what your pill is doing to your body.” Wow, ouch. Eyeopener. That was the last day I ever took the Pill.
That was 12 years ago. I tried the Couple to Couple League method which is one that I know works, because I have so many friends who have used with with great success, but because of my medical issues, it didn’t work for me. Later, I found the Creighton Model of NFP/ NaProTechnology. I was saved! The Creighton Model is a MEDICAL model of NFP that not only deals with fertility, but any number of GYN issues. There may be an OB/GYN in your area that is trained in the method and can help you with your charting. There are Creighton practitioners in every state, I believe. So you should be able to find someone near you. If not, I know that there are many who will work with you remotely over the phone, email and Skype and can get you trained. Please check them out! I think they can help you. You’ll never regret doing this for yourself, your health and your marriage. The Lord wants you to be healthy and the Lord wants you to have a beautiful marriage with no barriers between the “two becoming one”. Ask the Lord to show you what you should do. Praying for you!
To find out more on the Creighton Model http://www.creightonmodel.com/
I’m also friends with Yuri Nesterenko, founder of the Anti-sexual Movement. He says, “No one should get pregnant accidentally because no one should have sex for any reason other than to procreate. However, it is better to have an abortion than an unwanted child.”
Clearly, asexual and anti-sexual people aren’t necessarily opposed to abortion. Some like my asexual friend don’t even care about the issue since it has no impact on them.
“Abortion is not about a woman’s right to ‘kill her child’ as you like to say, but her right as a human being to not have to ever use her own body to keep another alive. ”
You might be new to this, so I’ll try to explain: Humans are placental mammals. We don’t hatch from eggs, grow from spores, or sprout from seeds in the earth. Humans create more humans by having sexual intercourse.
You do not have the right to kill a child just because you didn’t want to get pregnant when you had sex. You don’t have the right to kill a child even if the sex was criminal, but lots of people do make that rape exception. I’m not one of them. We live in a society that is focussed on “ME and WHAT I WANT!” Children are life-changing. We live in a society where lots of people want to have sex whenever they like, with whomever it suits them at the moment. “What? Spend the next 20 years parenting a child with that guy?! He was cute for a moment, but I don’t want to be tied to him forever!!” That’s what we’re talking about, isn’t it? And because he was cute for a moment but turned out to be a jerk, many women and men think that the child should pay WITH ITS LIFE for what his parent’s don’t want to deal with.
Are you willing to give birth to a child you conceived with a person you decided a few days or weeks later that you hate? If so, sleep around all you want. But that’s not what YOU’RE talking about. Yes, some pro-lifers are older, some of us had our flings, many of us are even post-abortive. What is so very wrong and awful about being more choosy about who you sleep with? Is that so bad? And that doesn’t even address married people who abort because “it’s just not the right time for a child..” Well, you thought it was the right time to have intercourse, which you knew could result in a child, right?
There is no such thing as the right to abortion. A child isn’t some kind of invader in his mother’s body. He’s just an innocent little human that needs a few months to develop. I don’t think he or she deserves to die just because he or she is unwanted. Live and let live.
Thanks for the congrats — it’s nice to get some pleasant news in this often sad world. Engagements, graduations, and I’m going to be a grandmom soon — I’m getting OLD!
Denise,
I’m a little lost regarding your comments. Maybe I missed a comment earlier… what does the asexual movement you’re describing have to do with the discussion we’ve been having on this thread? Did someone bring up the abortion issue as it relates to asexual people?
oh – and I forgot to tell people about a person I know that had an IUD put in at age 16 at our local PP. She ended up with infections that robbed her of her ability to have children. Thankfully, she is an adopted mom of 8. She was told the IUD was good for her – and that there was no problem. but her experience belied that advice.
<i>
“Incidentally, condoms in and of themselves are not evil; they have legitimate uses. I had a transvaginal ultrasound at my OB’s office last week, and the ultrasound wand was covered with a sterile condom. That’s a very legitimate use for it.”</i>
<i>I have also been informed that they are wrapped around guns in certain areas to keep them safe from the elements. I don’t know how accurate it is, but if it’s true, that is also a legitimate use …a quick google search confirms at least somewhat.</i>
We also use them in theater – to cover the mic packs and protect them from sweat since they frequently go under shirts, in the bands of bras or at the small of the back, etc. I buy them in bulk quantities.
They go well with my bulk lube purchases – very handy for putting in ashtrays that go onstage. Puts a cigarette right out without any chance of a little ember surviving, as there would be if it were just a bare ashtray; but doesn’t slosh everywhere like something of a thinner consistency.
The drugstore people know me a bit too well by now.
Let’s clear the record here. There are two types of modern IUD’s. There is one with hormones and one without. My wife has had her IUD in since our daughter was born almost 17 years ago… no problems at all and she has it checked every year. Yes there are some horror stories about early IUD used but the IUD has been around since 1927 and has changed over the years.
Biggz – glad to know your wife is healthy and not suffering any ill effects. Yes – there are some IUD’s with and without hormones – and for those who want to avoid any early abortion due to the IUD should avoid it’s use. But I am very glad that your wife is ok.
Make all the lame jokes you want but, wasn’t it the Pope and the Catholic Church that said condoms were the work of Satan?
Please provide a quote from an official Church document (e.g., a papal encyclical or apostolic letter) that states that condoms are the work of Satan.
Contraception is intrinsically evil, yes, but condoms in and of themselves are not. They are morally neutral objects that have legitimate use (e.g., to protect transvaginal ultrasound wands).
NFP is a crap shoot.
Why are you anti-science, Biggz?
NFP is a scientific, systematic method of observing external and internal fertility signs and determining one’s state of fertility based on the information gathered. It’s very scientific and very reliable when used correctly. Might I suggest you check out “Taking Charge of Your Fertility” by Toni Weschler to learn more about a method of which you are obviously ignorant? It’s a completely secular book, no religion involved whatsoever, and even gives the option of using condoms during the fertile phase. But the principles behind the method remain the same. It has the same method failure rate as the Pill, and the user failure rate is about the same as well. I believe the user failure rate is lower than condom usage when abstinence is used during the fertile period.
So, dont take birth control… take the birth control issued by the Catholic Church?
No, Biggz. The Church has never said that birth control — e.g., spacing pregnancies — is evil or immoral. It can be done for the wrong reasons, but the act itself is not immoral. What the Church opposes is contraception, which is an immoral means of spacing pregnancy. It’s an immoral means to a morally neutral end. NFP is a moral means to a morally neutral end, as is complete abstinence.
I’ll admit to being against “sexual liberation” (which I see as an utter lack of self-control) and “a desire to compel pregnancy” at least for me and my wife who have been trying for YEARS but failing due to the amount of synthetic estrogen in the groundwater; if you’ll admit to the fact that the very basis of the entire contraceptive mentality is the wish for “sexual liberation” and a form of eugenics in an attempt to reduce the population of the next generation without actually going through the self-control and willpower needed to abstain from sex.
Ninek
I respectfully disagree with you as I imagine you respectfully disagree with me.
People do not have an obligation to keep people alive using their bodies. Period. If you negligently drunk driving and you harm someone ( a very foreseeable consequence) and the only way their life could be saved was if you gave them a kidney, you don’t have to do it. You can be sued you can be put in jail but you can never be forced to use your body keep another alive, never ever.
I don’t know if I would say that abortion is a right per say, but I would say that autonomy over your health is a right. Don’t want to alter your body, and health for another person? You have no obligation to. Want to not be pregnant, don’t be pregnant. I am not okay with making women second class citizens and depriving them of their ability to make basis health decisions being they are sexually active.
Before you say that abortion is not a health decision, please remember the oh so many ways pregnancy alters your health and body
YCW, I’ve got something I wanted to share with you re: adoption. How can I contact you?
Biggz, Non-hormonal IUD’s are only supposed to be in place for 10 years at a time.
Hi Lana.
You write:
1) People have differant reasons for being pro-choice but I think the “hatred of women” line is an allusion to the belief that forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy to term is in grave violation of her bodily autonomy. Abortion is not about a woman’s right to ‘kill her child’ as you like to say, but her right as a human being to not have to ever use her own body to keep another alive.
The end result is the same. The child is dead because of the actions of the mother. The “right to not use her own body to keep another alive” is not absolute. One conjoined twin can not decide, unilaterally, to have her twin removed. If staying conjoined will not result in the death of both twins, but one would die if they are separated, the twins must remain conjoined.
2) Isnt the fear of sexual liberation and desire to compel pregnancy line actually kind of true? In reality don’t many pro-lifers think that people should not have sex with any one other than their spouse or someone they don’t wish to have a baby with? Don’t they believe that when married people are having sex they should desire pregnancy or at least be open to it?
We believe that sleeping with someone you would not ever raise a child with is a recipe for disaster considering the fact that even with perfect use of contraception, the average woman will have two pregnancies over the course of her reproductive life. Because we do not believe that abortion is a solution to the situation, we believe it is wise to only sleep with someone with whom you could possibly see yourself raising a child with. It isn’t about being “anti-sex” it’s about being practical and responsible.
As for sex within marriage, pro-lifers have a wide variety of what is acceptable and what is not. Some pro-lifers are fine with any form of non-abortificient birth control, others are against barrier methods, and others are against any form of contraception at all. The important thing to remember about these views and conversations is that pro-lifers are not on a crusade to make condoms or vasectomies illegal. We might advise another Christian pro-lifer about the issue, and perhaps even talk about the benefits of NFP to society at large, but it’s a very different issue than abortion.
As it relates to abortion, our main concern with birth control is that it lulls people into a false sense of security in which they think that they are being “safe” and so they engage in more risky sexual behavior. Because no form of birth control gives 100% protection, this behavior often leads to the abortion clinic.
Lauren,
I wasn’t attacking your ( or other pro-lifers views on sexual behavior.) I was more saying point blank that many people accuse you of being anti-recreational sex, and that is actually pretty true for the reasons you just stated above.
As for your conjoined twin example, it doesn’t really hold up. Presumably the conjoined twins are using each other’s bodies for survival. One is not entirely dependent and using the other, rather they are presumably sharing the body, the two cant get bodily autonomy because neither has 100% claim over the body. The mother is not sharing the fetus’ body. She does not need its body for anything, the fetus is using the mother’s body, in certain cases against her will for survival.
Are you admitting that you believe that when a women becomes pregnant you think she should loose rights that non-pregnant women and men have
This latest stupid quote is projection of the pro-abort game of confusing gametes with human organisms, in order to assign their own hatred and exploitation of women to us.
What is more useful for exploiting women as objects than abortion?
Condoms are distinct from the hormonal birth control methods in that they exhibit no mechanism for the destruction of early embryos.
The preference to avoid the use of condoms is related to religious ideology concerning the natural design of the body and sex functions, but not to an explicit mechanism for stopping human life.
Lana, actually, in many cases one conjoined twin really is supporting the other. There was a case a few years ago in which one twin was completely reliant upon the other’s kidney for survival. They had to wait several years to separate the girls because they had to wait until they were old enough for the twin without a functional kidney to undergo a transplant from her mother.
In your view, did the twin with the functional kidney have the right to demand a separation, even if she knew that doing so would result in the death of her sister?
As for recreational sex, if a woman is committed to giving birth to any child that might come from the sexual encounter, regardless of her feelings for the man involved, then it is fine from an abortion perspective.
What rights do you believe that a pregnant woman loses during pregnancy?
Pro-lifers are women haters hmmm? Lets see here… Who lies to women about the development of their unborn creation? Who works day and night to prevent them from getting an ultrasound before an abortion, if its really just a clump of cells why does it matter so much when a women wants and ultrasound beforehand? Who lies to them about the procedure they are about to go through? Who hides from them the truth of the risks an abortion is to their own health and life? Who rarely gives women any other option aside from abortion? Who tries to keep them naive and ignorant about the life inside them, and then when they feel regret tells them to get over it without any compassion? Who works side by side with abusers, not the abused, to cover up their crimes? Who is sacrificing women’s happiness and safety a-ok-ing a culture of casual sex, random hook ups, and goodie goodie free for alls? Who pressures women into killing their unborn child? Who are the real women haters?
Hi Lana.
First of all, thank you for being so sober. You have only left, what, three comments and already I can tell that you are very thoughtful and nuanced in your views, as well as open to give and take discussion.
Lauren gave an excellent example of conjoined twins where one is totally dependent on the other, but I would like to look a little more closely at your criteria in the case where both twins may perhaps be mutually “using” each others bodies. The question I have is why does bodily autonomy depend on HOW someone is using another person’s body or their reason for using their body? Here is what I mean. The bodily autonomy argument takes the rights of the individual to have domain over their body as almost a first principle. Based on bodily autonomy (and I assume you would agree with this), a woman may have an abortion at 38 weeks for any or no reason whatsoever. If she decides that is what she wishes to do with her body, it would be a violation of her rights for someone else to tell her what she can or can’t do with her body. But it seems that in arguing that the twins mutually share each others bodies, you are saying that they would not have full and total bodily autonomy simply because one is benefiting from the other. So I do not see how “benefiting” is a necessary condition in order to have bodily rights kick in. In other words, I was under the impression that if my body is being used by someone in a way that I don’t want, I can do whatever it takes to stop that from happening. Perhaps someone is giving me blood that my body needs to survive, but I don’t want blood (for any or no reason). I should have the right to unplug myself from their giving me blood even though it is not in my best interests. Similarly, the way that bodily autonomy is discussed as almost a first principle, no apologies, no exception, fundamental right, I don’t see how it can be reconciled with the idea that the one that you wish to remove needs to be gaining something from you and you gaining nothing from the one you wish to remove. So just to sum up, why is that a needed condition in order for one to be justified in applying their bodily rights?
Perhaps you have a different theory of bodily rights, one that does not fit this paradigm. If so, I apologize, and I would be interested in hearing how bodily rights means that one may indeed kill (or remove) a human being as a means or an end without running into the above problem of needing to meet certain criteria before one is able to apply bodily rights in certain situations. Take care.
@ninek: I understand what you’re saying, and yes, many docs/ObGyns do just slap something on the Rx pad to “fix it.” I wouldn’t doubt that was the case when my problems first arose, but I know as time went on and my condition worsened, the search for a proper treatment intensified. There probably are, and I am actually certain there are, other treatments available. I was on hormone treatment with 4 mg of estrogen each day and then took a progesterone for 14 days to have a period to complete my cycle, and I was told, “This is NOT birth control, so don’t use it as such.” Why can’t doctors prescribe that instead of a contraceptive pill? It’s probably safer and can be tailored to the specific hormonal needs of each woman.
@Elizabeth Shearer: Isn’t it awful!? Ugh, and having that before I was even 15 and not knowing what the heck was wrong with me… it was just awful going through my teen years, and it was at its WORST in college. No one should have to endure a 5-month period.Strangely enough, the only side-effects I’ve had from the pill was weight gain. I’ve never felt any emotional or psychological issues (although I know there are health risks associated with it). I guess it’s just that now I know what my pill can possibly do to a conceived child, and it bothers me. I don’t want to end a life the Lord may want to bring in simply because I was ignorant or told myself it was a rarity for implantation to not take. Thanks for your prayers! I will be checking out your link and praying continuously myself!
Lana:
I have no say over who sleeps with anyone. I would advise anyone–based on my wonderful experience with marriage–to wait until marriage for sex. But I do not wish to make extramarital sex illegal. I don’t wish to make condoms or diaphragms illegal. I do wish to make pills and procedures which have killing another person as their main end illegal.
Let’s say a law was passed against predatory interest rates. A credit card company would no longer be able to charge more than 15% interest on a balance.
Suppose the credit card industry reacted in protest. They claim the law is anti-credit and that no one will be able to have a credit card. They claim that the government is taking away their livelihood. They claim that millions of responsible card users need their credit cards and the government is exerting too much control. They claim that card users have a right to decide for themselves whether they use credit, and how much balance they pay, and the government should butt out.
In reality, however, no one has been forbidden from using the card, paying just the minimum balance, or holding a credit card. The law has simply said that the companies cannot jack up interest indefinitely. It hasn’t outlawed buying on credit at all. Responsible cardholders won’t notice a difference, and irresponsible cardholders will actually be more protected.
Abortion doesn’t help anyone. It isn’t about sexual freedom. If abortion were illegal, it wouldn’t affect people who use sex responsibly (unless they would kill a disabled child). It wouldn’t hurt those who were using sex irresponsibly; it would protect the abortion industry from preying on them and killing their children. They could still have sex whenever they wanted (assuming they could still find a willing partner). They could still attempt to not get pregnant. They could still end up pregnant. They just can’t kill their own children.
Sex produces children. There is no other way they are produced. But abortion doesn’t guarantee sex without children–it just guarantees dead children.
Also, Lana:
I am not required to feed a stranger who comes to my door. I am not required to make sure he has a place to sleep for the night and that clean clothes when he wakes up in the morning. If my husband left with the stranger, and they made less money than I did, I wouldn’t have to send them checks in the mail. Indeed, implying I have that level of responsibility for a stranger is ridiculous. It might be kind and generous to do some of these things, and one could argue that if I do not feed a hungry stranger I am going against Biblical teaching. I would certainly feel awful if that stranger died because I had not given him a hot meal and a warm place to sleep. Perhaps you think this is what pregnancy is like.
This analogy is not a good analogy for the abortion debate, because the unborn person is not a stranger. He is my son.
If my son came to me hungry and wanted to eat, I would feed him. To never feed my son would be illegal. To not ensure he had a safe place to sleep would not be merely inhospitable, but criminal. Making sure he has clothes to wear is not a touching act of kindness, but a requirement. If I give shelter to a stranger, I am doing charity–but if I refuse shelter to my son, I am guilty of child abuse. Even if my son were in my husband’s care and not mine, I might be legally obligated to help pay for his needs.
Abortion is not evicting an ungrateful tenant; it’s putting one’s offspring out of his or her home before the child can survive on his or her own. And it usually involves not just eviction, but dismemberment–something it is illegal to do even to strangers. If the person a woman is pregnant with is her son or daughter, she has an obligation to that child she would not have to a stranger.
Kel says:
May 17, 2011 at 5:56 pm
Denise,
I’m a little lost regarding your comments. Maybe I missed a comment earlier… what does the asexual movement you’re describing have to do with the discussion we’ve been having on this thread? Did someone bring up the abortion issue as it relates to asexual people?
(Denise) Kel, people have been discussing the idea that the abortion criminalization side is motivated by a desire to repress sexuality or a bad feeling toward sexuality. I was citing 2 instances of people who are in fact either asexual in one case or anti-sexual in the other. The asexual woman doesn’t even have a position on abortion. The anti-sexual man thinks it’s better to abort than give birth to an unwanted child.
This shows that asexual and anti-sexual people aren’t necessarily part of the criminalize abortion movement.
Lana,
Guess I’ll jump on the bandwagon here.
Most pro-lifers don’t hate sex. A lot of us enjoy it. And as someone already stated, there is a wide range of opinions within the pro-life community about how pro-lifers go about birth control.
It’s just that many of us have also seen the devastating affects that wanton sexual encounters can have. We love women and we would advise them from making decisions that could harm them for the rest of the their lives. We really don’t want to control people’s sex lives – we just want to save the babies that result and then give women help to lead a healthier, more fulfilling lifestyle.
Usually pro-choicers don’t necessarily agree with that premise, though. So I suppose that is where the confusion comes in about us being “anti-sex.” No, we’re more “anti-unwanted pregnancies” and “anti-heartbreak” and “anti-STDs” and “anti-lifelong regret.”
:)
Comparing pregnancy to giving up a kidney is completely illogical. First, humans have been reproducing by sexual intercourse since before the first cave man clobbered the second. Donating organs is not natural and is a result of modern medical advances.
When a woman is pregnant, her reproductive organs have demonstrated their healthy function. A woman isn’t less equal when she is pregnant. Anyone who discriminates against a pregnant woman is wrong. A man isn’t better than a pregnant women because he’s not pregnant. A woman who isn’t pregnant isn’t a better person or “more equal” than a pregnant mother. There is no humane reason to kill a human being who is developing. You will agree that there is no humane reason to kill a newborn. Well, the zygote, embryo, and fetus are all the same human creature at each stage of development: alive, and genetically unique. The only difference between a newborn and a teen is growth and development.
You can argue about donated kidneys all you want, but it is completely and utterly devoid of logic. Sexual intercourse between a man and a woman is how more humans are made. It is not some kind of invasion or intrusion on the part of the child. Abortion is murder. Murder is wrong.
First off… Sexual liberation does not come with a schedule. Sexual liberation means freedom. It means freedom from religious rules regarding sex. It is freedom from legal rules regarding sex of consenting adults. It means the freedom to have sex anytime you want with whoever you want without consequences like disease, emotional attachment, and pregnancy. That is sexual liberation and it means to throw off all shackles attached to sex by religion and government “which also comes from religion”. Christians will never understand sexual liberation because you have too many rules about sex. You guys are just one step above Muslims when it comes to sexual oppression.
Next are you trying to say the Catholic Church has never had a problem with contraception like condoms? Oh and by the way you do not put a condom over an ultrasound wand, you put a IVT lens over it… I used to make them.
Ninek – “Sexual intercourse between a man and a woman is how more humans are made.”
Yes and rubbing two sticks together is how fire is made but we don’t have a forest fire every single time a breeze blows through the forest do we…
Procreation is not the purpose of sex, it is a byproduct, otherwise women would get pregnant every time they had sex. If procreation was the only purpose of sex then your NFP would not work at all. Sex is not a means to the end. It is its own experience, an experience that sometimes has the byproduct of procreation.
Next are you trying to say the Catholic Church has never had a problem with contraception like condoms? Oh and by the way you do not put a condom over an ultrasound wand, you put a IVT lens over it… I used to make them.
No, Biggz, I never said such a thing. As I said, the Church has ALWAYS condemned contraception, including condoms. (Actually, all Christian churches condemned contraception until 1930 when the Anglicans caved to social pressure, and most denominations quickly followed suit.) The Church, however, has never condemned birth control (i.e., spacing pregnancies). There are two moral means to space pregnancies in Catholicism: NFP and abstinence. Couples may use either method. I used contraception (the Pill and condoms) when I was Protestant, and have used NFP for 8 years as a Catholic. I much prefer NFP. It’s better for my health, and better for our marriage. Plus, it makes me more informed about my body which makes me feel empowered about my fertility.
Biggz, do you think rules are bad? Did you never set rules or limits for your daughter?
Also, if procreation is not the primary purpose of sex, then why do men ejaculate every time they have sexual intercourse? What’s the purpose of sperm if sex is not for procreation?
I googled IVT lens but couldn’t find anything about it, much less a picture. I can assure you that what was covering the transvaginal u/s wand at the doctor’s office was a condom. I have seen them before.
Sexual liberation does not come with a schedule. Sexual liberation means freedom. It means freedom from religious rules regarding sex. It is freedom from legal rules regarding sex of consenting adults. It means the freedom to have sex anytime you want with whoever you want without consequences like disease, emotional attachment, and pregnancy. That is sexual liberation and it means to throw off all shackles attached to sex by religion and government “which also comes from religion”.
Sounds a little more like “libertine” and less like “liberty.”
Biggz, does it never even occur to you how biased and intolerant you sound when you claim that our freely chosen lifestyles are sexual slavery?