Abortion proponent: Ignore pro-life “scare tactics”; fear unsafe abortions and poor children instead
Pro-life people should actually be calling themselves “anti-choice.” Most of them probably aren’t educated of the pre-Roe v. Wade realities of abortion or birth control; they simply resort to publicity stunts hinging upon the power of guilt.
Scare tactics seem to work well for the pro-life bandwagon. During my undergraduate career at the University of Tennessee, pro-lifers frequented the campus with giant posters of aborted fetuses painted across them, displaying the by-product of abortions. Each poster had pieces of baby fetuses lying across the face of dimes, pennies and nickels.
What disturbed me the most about the pictures was the thought of the pro-life photographer who was manipulating theses tiny fetuses, contorting them across the coin faces….
Think past the fetus and consider the systemic issues of children living in poverty, think of the women who died unnecessary, bloody and painful deaths. Pro-choice is not an immoral stance, it is a stance, which holistically considers multiple layers of moral decisions and the impact they have on others. People will find a way to have abortions whether or not you ban them, but that does not mean they will be safe.
~ Elliott DeVore, Iowa State Daily, October 4
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
ooooooo puleeeaze. the pro death crowd strikes again! aborted baby fetus faces. would somthing with human faces hands and feet not be human? im waiting for the old and tired lawn mower kidney donation and dental debate. i watched a great special on ewtn the other night on abortion. they said that the funny thing about pro choice being a label is that most women who aborted felt they had “no choice”
HA HA HA HA HA What a badly written, poorly “researched” utter piece of excrement. Elliott, we are pro-life. We are not against choices. Call us “anti-abortion” if you want. Also, grow up and read a biology book.
Why do none of these people want to find out WHY women seek abortions? Why do they not care about women who are coerced into having abortions? Abort at all costs, abort at all costs! They don’t care about women’s health, they don’t even know what abortion is. Semantic talks about rights and “holistic” approaches makes them sound silly and new-agey and completely unrealistic. What are they afraid of? Why are they afraid that some women might not want to abort when they find out the truth?
I can’t even …..ugh.
Think past the fetus……hilarious. Methinks they have that one down. If they think of the fetus at all.
Wait! WAIT! “baby fetuses”? Is that to differentiate from adult fetuses?
If the author were actually a critical thinker wouldn’t he be most disturbed that the “baby fetuses” were ripped apart while living? No, instead he mourns over the fact that someone dared to lay the dead baby fetus’ arm across a quarter. Yes Elliot, indeed, laying a severed arm next to a dime is so much worse than the actual act that severed that arm.
How much did your parents pay for you to go to college Elliot? They need to ask for a refund.
And btw Elliot, you totally hit the nail on the head. I am SO anti-choice! I buy only white underwear… I hate to choose a color each day. I detest the cereal aisle in the supermarket especially, so many CHOICES!!!!! AND NO WIRE HANGERS EVER!!!!!
Oh those evil manipulators of unborn baby parts!!!!!
Elliot, Elliot, the reason you were so bothered by those pictures was because they were bloody pictures of dead babies.
Oh, and that smarty-pants point you tred to make: Pro-choice is a stance which “holistically considers multuple layers of moral decisions and the impact they have on others”—all that is is mental msturbation. You college boys love to turn a phrase.
The posters of the truth, and the moral equation is about as simple as it gets: If you choose abortion, then you have murdered your child. Goodness, even my 3rd grader gets that, and he doesn’t even need to see the posters.
“Think past the fetus and consider the systemic issues of children living in poverty”
They’re not mutually exclusive, pro-aborts!
This essay is very poorly written; it just rambles and states a bunch of generic, 1970s arguments and cliches.
The babies dying by the millions certainly surpasses the small number of women who died from “bad” abortions – though they’re all bad!
We’re not “anti-choice.” I believe in choice. Choose how to do your hair, choose your career, choose when to have children – THE PROPER WAY.
I am just anti-murder. Is that really so hard for people to understand?
They (prodaborts) are more upset over the abuse of cats and dogs than they are over babies being torn to pieces! hypoctrites~
Sydney M.: “AND NO WIRE HANGERS EVER!!!!!”
Heh.
I once locked myself out of the car in a big parking lot, fortunately next to a huge clothier. I went in to ask for a hanger, and was stunned to find only huge plastic things. Thousands of ’em. Not a conventional, old-school hanger in sight. Stunned at the weirdness of the situation, I went next door to another similar store, my expectations calibrated toward pessimism. Same thing. However, in the returns area up front I spotted a single wire hanger. ;-)
Courtnay–YES!
My daughter (she’s 10) and I were walking past the Catholic church in our neighborhood. There was a flyer that said “Pro-Life Baby Shower.” My daughter said, “What’s a PRO LIFE baby shower? Why not just call it a shower?” I thought this was rather astute. I was thinking of how to answer, and then she asked again, “What does PRO-LIFE mean?” And so I said, “Well, when a woman is pregnant, there are some people who believe that it’s a baby in there, and he or she has the right to live.” And she looked at me like “Well…DUH!” and then she said, “But wait, some people don’t think they should live?” and I said, “Well, some people think it’s the mother’s decision.” And she was flabbergasted. She said, “But it’s a BABY! Why would anyone want to kill a baby?! That’s the stupidest thing I have ever heard in my life!”
She thought about this for a while, and it really upset her. She said, “Are you pro-life?” and I said, “Oh, honey, you betcha.” She said, “I don’t understand why some people don’t think it’s a baby. What else could it be?”
I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP. I was very proud of her.
So, she’s 10. She gets it. I’m waiting for the “educated” world to catch up.
Elliot: “…think of the women who died unnecessary, bloody and painful deaths.”
Why, yes. Had those women not tried to abort their children, they might still be alive. Unnecessary, indeed.
I wrote a blog post about this some time ago… The Myth that Is Anti-Choice
I am indeed 100% against the “choice” to kill an innocent human being, just as I oppose the “choice” of a woman to kill her husband in lieu of an expensive divorce, or the “choice” of a serial rapist to kill his victims so he won’t have any witnesses to testify against him. I think the better question is, Elliott, why aren’t you?
bmmmg39: that’s what they chose.
You buys your ticket, you takes your chances.
Scare tactics used by pro-lifers? If the images are so scary and wrong to show, doesn’t that say a lot? If it makes you so uncomfortable, that means something is not right. These people make no sense.
But after saying that about scare tactics, the person says: ”think of the women who died unnecessary, bloody and painful deaths.”
Hypocrites.
What disturbed me the most about the pictures was the thought of the pro-life photographer who was manipulating theses tiny fetuses, contorting them across the coin faces….
Really? This is more disturbing than the dead child?
Mary Lee!! That’s a beautiful story!! Do you mind if I share it? You’ve raised a great daughter :)
I know a lot of people who were poor children. I myself was for a number of years. I wouldn’t trade my poorness as a child for not having lived, nor would any other sane individuals.
Some of our greatest minds and brightest artists were poor children. It’s not such a bad way to start…..
there is a good book out there called “who broke the baby” yes kids get it. oh and as much as i detest how gloria steinem described her own abortion “a woman has a right to remove a parasite from her body” she kept it real on how hard core pro deathers feel didnt she? i havent heard that one in a wwhileb though.
there is a good book out there called “who broke the baby” yes kids get it. oh and as much as i detest how gloria steinem described her own abortion “a woman has a right to remove a parasite from her body” she kept it real on how hard core pro deathers feel didnt she? i havent heard that one in a while though.
gloria is still believing the lie that her dreams would have been shattered had she not aborted. truth is had she let god guide her life who knows where they would be. she and her son or daughter could have gone into business together and built up an empire.
Courtnay,
I am as horrified by the deaths of children by abortion as I am by the women that have died while having one.
Your comment smacks of “you got what you paid for ladies.”
Ugh
“Think past the fetus?” Wow. Talk about the oppressor trying to make the victim invisible…
Amber, please do! It was a very clarifying moment. Also, I was trying not to use scary language, or anything really clinical. I just explained it to her. And she was HORRIFIED that anyone would even CONSIDER such a thing. As we all should be.
Carla, I am just paraphrasing one of my favorite Dr. Phil quotes: You choose your action, you also choose the consequence. If you are willing to butcher your baby, that brings with it the possibility of severe physical risk. Would you have as much compassion for a woman who was killed in the process of killing her born child?
Courtnay,
I don’t watch Dr. Phil.
I have much compassion for all humans.
I have compassion for postabortive women. I am one. So yes, I have “butchered my baby.”
Carry on.
yeah i dont swear by doctor phil oprah or doctor oz. dr phil was questioning a couple on their troubled relationship and asked the couple if they could think of any contribruting factors as to why things went south. the wife then said “well i had an abortion” dr phil asked “whats that got to do with anything”?
How is it that people on the fence don’t see how cruel and elitist the pro-aborts like Elliot really are? He wants kids to be dead rather than poor! That is so horrifying to me yet it doesn’t seem to phase the pro-aborts at all. They truly can’t seem to comprehend that life is precious no matter if you’re raised in a scummy apartment in the bad side of town or a multi-million dollar mansion on a spectacular estate.
My family and I are financially struggling and though we are not destitute we are definitely lower middle class. I can’t buy every thing other kids have for my son but I tell you that he loves life whether he gets a fancy vacation every summer or not, whether he has name brand clothes or not, whether he eats 34 cent mac-n-cheese or steak… he LOVES life! I know many people who have a lot of money and they are miserable! Joy comes from seeing your life as a gift and treating it as such.
Btw, Mary Lee, love hearing about pro-life kids! They are our future and the future of our country! God bless your daughter for being such a smart girl!
I do not mean to make this a referendum on Dr. Phil.
Carla, even as you are a postqabortive woman, what, exactly have I said that you condiser misguided or wrong?
Courtnay, I believe your heart is in the right place, and I sometimes use some Dr. Phil-isms myself (the guy’s not ALL bad, he’s rather great in a lot of ways)….but Carla’s reaction is similar to mine with the rape conversation from a while back. Because I wore a black form-fitting dress that showed a little cleavage, I was asking to be raped? No. Because I once kissed the fellow (he was a friend), I was asking for him to throw me down and rip me to shreds until I vomited? No.
I still wear stuff that shows my cleavage. I mean, hey, I have good boobs.
*ahem*
So, women who are seeking abortion need compassion. We need to understand them, WHY they feel they “need” to abort, what the problem is that seems so horrible it can only be solved by the killing of one’s baby….this is sad. I’m sad for them, and if a woman dies from an abortion–legal or illegal–it’s sad because it’s unnecessary, it’s a tragic end to a tragic act. Nobody is “asking” for it. Nobody deserves to die that way.
I disagree with the notion that we are to condemn women- in your
words, you buys your ticket, you takes your chances.
Show me the compassion in that statement.
Now that I get the privilege of helping women in abortion recovery I realize how difficult it is for all of us to reach out for that help when those messages(and worse)are pointed in our direction.
Thank you, Mary Lee.
Mary Lee, I hear what you’re saying. I believe in compassion. But we’re not talking about a little black dress…we are talking about a person who is willing to kill her baby. So she takes on certain risks because of that action. Indeed, how horrible it is that she that was her only option. But back to the original point of the horror over women who died in abortion: this is what they chose. Living by the sword…well, you know the rest. Did they deserve to die that way? Well, no. But no one should be suprised.
I agree with you, Courtnay. Granted, my judgement in matters such as this tends to be harsh, because frankly I’m a hard-headed harda$$ who wouldn’t let people convince me otherwise even in a crisis situation, so it’s hard NOT to say, “If I can do it, you could’ve done it too.”
But everyone is different. It’s hard to have understanding for women that are able to do things like this, but we really have to try. (and I’m saying this as much to myself as I am to you. I need correction in this matter, and I know it, and years of talking to “unashamed and proud” post-abortive women hasn’t helped my situation)
NOT a condemnation. Merely stating a fact. Goodness, we get all riled up at the people who just support with words the right to kill your child, but when someone actually does it, I can’t voice an opinion that they are culpable in what happens? Carla, you are using your experience for good and are obviously going to react to a post abortive woman, and as a pro-lifer, I am grateful for your work. But don’t act offended when I use the plain words to describe what’s going on.
I am not offended. All of us “know what’s going on.”
As for your thoughts of post abortive women? The baby butcherers?
You can quote me on this
“It ain’t helping.”
Feel free to type your thoughts. I will feel free to type mine.
Xalisae,
I believe you and I used to go a couple of rounds on this too. Good times. :)
Carla, not everyone knows what’s going on. As many women we will hear from on this blog who regret their abortions, pro-abortion sites will feature stories of women who will swear up and down it was no big deal and actually “liberating.” We’ve all read them. There are women who won’t ever hear a real description of what it actually means to “have an abortion.” Again, not a condemnation, just a reality check.
If you don’t like the terms “baby butcher”, then I am going to assume you, like our friend Elliot, do not like being confronted by the pictures of the aborted, excuse me, butchered babies. Because the pictures speak more eloquently than I. They ain’t helping, either, I guess?
At our local 40 Days for Life prayer vigil site at one of the local abortion centers, a woman came with her little girl – and promptly affixed a “Pro-Baby – Pro-Choice” sign on her windshield.
This woman clearly does not understand what an abortion is, since it was quickly clear to us that she supported the abortion center and thought we shouldn’t be there.
Maybe she should see some of the signs that offended Elliott DeVore.
We both have the right to be there – but it made for some discomfort on our side. However, she went home and we are still out there.
Courtnay,
I am not talking about them. The ones that say they are fine with their abortions. Someday they may need help and I will help them.
I am talking about the post abortive women hurt by their abortions who read this blog and never comment and happen upon your thoughts.
Ask yourself if your words help. Ask yourself why YOU have a problem with post abortive women. Maybe it is time you did some soul searching.
Calling a woman a baby butcher and showing her a graphic sign of the truth of what abortion does to a living human child are two different things. Guess which one I am for?
How about you let those of us who have had abortions and also found healing from them help with the reality check?
My quote is, “if you are willing to butcher your baby…”
I did not call anyone a “baby butcher.”
So what is the difference (FACTUALLY, not what you’re FEELING) between uttering my quote and me holding up a picture of a butchered baby?
I merely said women need to take responsibility for their actions. THAT bothered you. And do I have a problem with post-abortive women? Well, kinda–the unrepentant ones. They killed their child. if we treat abortion TRULY as murder, what does that make a person who’s had an abortion?
Or am I getting a little too truthful here?
You did not say women need to take responsibility for their actions.
Ok.
I am going to be done with this conversation now.
It is obviously upsetting you.
People will find a way to have abortions whether or not you ban them, but that does not mean they will be safe.
Very true. Are they safe now? That’s certainly debatable. Google Kermit Gosnell for some insight.
I agree with Adair. This guy is regurgitating pro-abort cliches. There’s no revelation (and little truth) in what he has to say.
Carla and Courtnay,
I see the validity in what you both have said. I think what we need to comprehend is that it takes more than one approach. We all need to consider that 64% of abortions in this country are coerced or forced.
I, for instance, think that graphic signs are invaluable in dealing with lawmakers and others how may argue philosophically in favor of abortion. Dealing with women in crisis, however, it’s best to be compassionate and avoid condemnation and judgement. Many women who patronize abortion mills feel they have no choice in the matter. Read Abby Johnson’s book to get some inside perspective.
Wow – Elliot totally missed the point – by a mile. If he saw pictures of the Jews killed in the Holocaust would he blame the photographer? Of course – it would have been great if the person who took pictures actually tried to save someone – but to say ‘what about the people we have’ and make that the basis to not save or care for those who have been victimized is backwards!
Are they human? if so – help them. Save them. Love them. Do not help others kill them – Jews, slaves, Native Americans, the disabled, the poor, the elderly, the sick, the mentally-ill, the gifted, the misguided, the unjust …. everyone – including the unborn.
If you are human, you deserve humane treatment – not death. Help. Love. Solve problems. be generous. Help all – but don’t help others hurt or kill other humans. There are better solutions. We can do it, but we need the heart and the will to look at all of humanity and recognize our brother.
“I, for instance, think that graphic signs are invaluable in dealing with lawmakers and others how may argue philosophically in favor of abortion.”
Why not instead respond in kind? A substantive philosophical argument deserves to be addressed on its own merits. If you have to resort to pictures and slogans, a thoughtful bystander might think that maybe you don’t really have a viable counter-argument.
Sorry – but a picture is worth a thousand words – and that is why showing poor, hungry children from foreign countries, or abused animals, or pictures of the holocaust, or pictures of prisoners abused at the hands of their captives moves the heart.
One of the reasons that America turned from Vietnam or embraced the Civil Rights of Blacks was because of those very important pictures – the pictures of the slaughtered, the pictures of that poor girl running naked after being sprayed with napalm, the pictures of normal Americans being doused with water from water cannons or being dragged by police dogs for protesting for their civil rights.
I personally would not put up big pictures of aborted babies at the abortion mill when women are coming in for their abortions. Women are already traumatized. I believe in kindness. I would use them, however to educate others, say, in the GAP project when an educational point is to be made.
But honestly Joan – would you think that the pictures of and anguish of Kent state, or the assassination of President Kennedy or his brother Bobby, or of any other seminal humanity-against-man (which abortion is) does not have a place to move the heart? To make real what is previously a description or an idea? Pictures, art, real-life always moves the heart – because it is the depiction of reality – and brutality is cemented in the mind thru a vision of what is done.
Brutality needs to been seen, if the heart is not moved otherwise. History has born this out time and time again, as you well know.
We do not believe the magnitude of the unthinkable until it is seen.
We who reject abortion do not reject those who have had abortions.
-Father Frank Pavone
Terri K,
I appreciate what you said. Read Abby’s book already. :)
Blech, Abby Johnson’s book.
Courtnay, I hear what you’re saying. I hear what Carla is saying. I think in essence you are both right. Carla (and she knows how much I love her) have gone a few rounds on this too. She has a different perspective than we do having walked the walk these women now walk.
Christ didn’t condemn the adulterous woman, but he said rather mean things to Pharisees etc… He called them painted tombs, rotten inside. He even got physically violent with the money changers in the temple. Yet He was meek through all of His ministry. We are called to be like Christ. That means condemning sin, calling out the sinners. Yet showing compassion while we do it. Its a fine line. It really is.
I think what I’ve learned through Carla is that there is always the possibility of redemption and forgiveness (through God). Sometimes I have thought too highly of myself forgetting that I too am a wretched sinner who offended God with my sin but have been forgiven from my sinful past and set free by turning to the Son of God, the only person who can forgive our sin and break the chains that bind us.
I am also a post-abortive woman for four decades. I agree,
Carla, and I’ll be standing right behind you, too. That’s love.
The harshness of the response “if you are willing to butcher your baby…”
does not bring endearment to the post abortive women who are hurting
and in need of healing and forgiveness. It only makes it harder for any woman to even come forward.
End of discussion.
The whole idea of “choice” is odd. All laws restrict choices. For example, laws against work discrimination based on factors like race or gender restrict the choices of employers.
Many laws restrict what people can do with their own bodies. Laws against illegal drugs are an obvious example.
Pro-aborts always want to hide or obfuscate the truth. Truth is their enemy.
So, she’s 10. She gets it. I’m waiting for the “educated” world to catch up
Mary Lee, your daughter truly is a chip off the old block :)
Children instinctively know that abortion is wrong. I remember when I was a little girl and I learned that the Roe vs. Wade decision came down a week after I was born. My heart sank and I felt this overwhelming sense of doom. I knew that my mother wanted me and would have never had an abortion, but the idea that I or any child could be legally killed in the womb was just horrifying to me.
Aw, thanks, Denise Maria!
Denise Noe: “Laws against illegal drugs are an obvious example.”
Heck, laws preventing you from obtaining legal ones without a prescription are as obvious and don’t suffer from the burden of being controversial to some. Not even the most rabid drug legalization folk I know support the idea that any prescription drug should be available over the counter.
Think of all those children who would be born to poverty…
…then kill them!
That’s all these beasts have. No heart, no soul, no imagination, no dedication to helping the poor.
Just kill them.
That’s the solution to poverty for the proabort.
Tragically, like Carla, most mothers who are deceived into terminating their pregnancies are sold a pack of lies (blob of tissue) and don’t realize they are consenting to having their children killed until it is too late.
I never had an abortion, but I’ve done plenty of things that I am equally ashamed of. Sometimes it’s hard to forgive yourself.
I thank the Lord Jesus Christ that through His shed Blood and sacrifice on the Cross, our old man was crucified with Him. The persons that committed our sins of the past died and we are new creations in Christ. All our sins are wiped away, praise be to His Wonderful Name.
It is unfortunate that sometimes the rather harsh words we use to try and pierce through the darkness, the hardness of heart, and the lies people believe about abortion are sometimes heard by those with the most tender hearts. Post abortive women who are working through their severe emotional trauma don’t need to be confronted with the brutal truth of their mistake. They know they messed up.
But the members of the pro-death mob who prey on mothers in crisis and their children do need graphic confrontation.
So those engaged in direct confrontation need to be compassionate toward the victims of this tragic crime. And the precious victims in the process of emotional healing need to understand that harsh words aren’t intended for them, but for those who we hope will see the truth about abortion before it is too late.
Gerard that is one huge case of over-egging the pudding.
That is not the pro-choice mindset or behavior.
{Comment Edited. There is a policy about gratuitous digs at Clergy. G.N.}
Butchering the young isn’t vey holistic for them. They usually won’t end up whole at all.
I do agree with the basic sentiment of “Don’t want an illegal abortion? Don’t have one.”
It’s kind of flippant, but it’s an answer to an equally flippant slogan of the other side.
No, women who died in abortions don’t deserve what they got.
We all deserve eternal suffering in hell.
Luckily, we can call on Jesus and be saved.
Reality,
Over-egging the pudding? I don’t think so. This quote speaks for itself:
“Think past the fetus and consider the systemic issues of children living in poverty”
I wish I had a dollar for every time a proabort showed up here and elsewhere spouting the same claptrap about abortion ameliorating poverty.
In NYC, 60% of all African-American pregnancies end in abortion. Over 80% of abortion clinics are located in minority neighborhoods. By this deadly calculus, Harlem and Bedford Stuyvesant should look like Beverly Hills and Scarsdale. In fact, they are more violent, more impoverished, more destitute than at any time before abortion and even Civil Rights.
That’s abortion’s contribution to “systemic poverty”, as we “look past the fetus”.
Enjoy the pudding of your creation. Blacks are choking to death on it.
The reaction to this photographs supports my proposal of forcing females seeking abortions to look at pictures of the unborn at the stage of pregnancy they are at as being the most effective way to diminish abortion. Such photographs may work as motivators, leading them to choose to carry to term and to exercise the greatest care regarding pregnancy in the future.
So, just so I have learned my lesson:
The women who have had abortions are VICTIMS, not victimizers.
Words (such as butchering babies) are inappropriate and judgmental, but showing pictures are not.The pictures are helpful.
One of my jobs as a pro-life activist, along with trying to stop abortions, is to make women who have had them feel better about what they did, which is murder (which I’m not supposed to say.)
Women who have died or suffered injury durin and abortion are in no way culpable for their fate (goes back to the whole victim idea).
I am not being a good Christian if I do not incorporate the above lessons into my rhetoric.
I just want to be clear.
Courtnay, that’s a little harsh, and you’re putting words in our mouths.
Women who seek abortions are troubled…..YES they ARE victims of the systems. They are victims of pro-abortion lies and they are victims of frightening circumstances. These women need compassion and understanding, not alienation and name-calling. As a pro-life activist, we are to love all people. That doesn’t mean excuse or condone what they do, but to understand why they do it, and to help them NOT do it by giving them support, love, and hope.
Women who have suffered or died during an abortion have made a choice—but they did not “get what was coming to them.” Nobody should die that way, not the baby, not the mother. We have to love BOTH the babies AND the mothers. We can reserve judgment for those who dupe these women, who take advantage of them, who run shoddy “practices,” who head organizations touting and supporting abortion as a “right.” But we have to understand what this issue is, at its core: Women, who need our help and support. Women who are frightened. Women who don’t know what to do. Women who are not being told the truth about their babies, about what abortion is. Women who just want to “be rid” of the problem.
In the “rape” conversation, you made statements that women should dress modestly and act ladylike, and then they won’t get raped. As a rape survivor, I was angry with this statement, because I was wearing a cleavage-bearing dress, and kissed the guy. That’s not “ladylike” and “modest,” so I got what was coming to me? I was unable to be touched by any human being for TWO YEARS. I stopped eating. I stopped talking. It was a nightmare. But if I had been wearing an Oxford shirt buttoned up to the neck and never kissed the guy who ripped me to shreds, then I wouldn’t have been raped? It’s my own fault that I was raped? I got what was coming to me?
This hits a nerve with Carla, because by making these statements, you are judging all women who are post-abortive. If we are to convert the world to the pro-life mentality, that kind of thinking is not going to do it. It sounds self-righteous and merciless. God is mercy. He is merciful to us, though we don’t deserve it. It is time to treat others as God would treat them–with compassion, understanding, and mercy. That is how we will change hearts and minds.
Be angry at abortion—I am with you there! It is an injustice! It comes from the bowels of Hell. But realize that we are all human, and not one of us is beyond redemption. And not one of us is without the need of mercy, so it’s best to show mercy to others, even when we are saddened and disheartened by their actions.
Mary Lee, just to be clear, when I was talking about the rape issue, I was talking specifically about the college girls I see every day in my work who are participants in the hook up culture at my university. Date-rape occurs, or even regret sex, and they can’t understand how things got out of control. Well, let’s start with the mini-skirt, and we’ll go all way through getting drunk, flirting, petting, and going to his or her room. She has EVERY right to say no and expect that he’ll respect that, but c’mon….she needed to take better care of herself before that moment.
Modesty protects women. Modesty works in our culture (and NO I AM NOT talking about a burqa), but maybe this is something I’m not supposed to say either.
Absolutely God is mercy. One of the prayers we say at mealtime is “O give thanks to the Lord for He is good, for His mercy endures forever.” But God’s going to let your choices play out. I have a gorgeous 13 year old daughter, and while she hears daily of Jesus’ love and forgiveness, she’s got to learn how to function in this over-sexed, permissive culture. And believe me, one of the things she’s going to learn is to be wise in her choices. It can protect her when I can’t.
Nowhere did I imply that it was your fault you got raped or that you got what you deserved. That sounds like something you might be still grappling with as you bring it up every time you respond to me. I am sorry this happened to you. It happened to me too. WHAT I SAID had to do with abortion, and women who have abortions: they decide to kill their child, and allow a stranger to put god-knows-what-chemicals or instruments into their vaginas. They cannot be suprised when something goes awry. That’s all I said. And yes, you buys your ticket, you takes your chances.
Women who have abortions might be scared, backed into a corner, etc. And especially if they are children, this is especially sorrowful to me. But the adult women who choose this are ADULTS, and me requiring better of adults is really just self-explanatory.
You have gone after me with more energy than you go after the pro-aborts that post on this page. All because I seem “judgmental.” Well, you’re right–I have to make judgments every day, and it’s best for me to call them like I see them. We get mad at pro-aborts for cleaning up the language: fetus, procedure, clump of cells, no worse than having a wisdom tooth pulled out, etc. I am not cleaning it up either.
Courtnay, I bring upthe rape conversation because this is a pattern…..You seem to think that if we just follow certain rules, everything will be fine. Life doesn’t work that way. Awful things happen to good people. People make horrific choices that hurt other people. My rape will ALWAYS be a wound, and I am astounded that you’re so cavalier about it (especially if, as you say, you’ve been through it). Yes, I bring up the rape issue, because what you said threw me for a loop…that you would even imply–let alone flat-out exclaim–that a woman would “get what’s coming to her.” What you are saying about post-abortive women sounds merciless and unkind, especially because these women are confused, lied to, and suffering. You can qualify these statements all you want, but you can’t unring a bell. You seem to make these grand, final statements, and then go back and tell us “what you meant.” That’s very tricky. I know it’s hard sometimes to be specific in a short span of time, or on the phone, but to say things like “You buys your ticket, you takes your chances” is as bare-bones as you can get.
I am not “going after” you. I am merely talking to you. I am with you in the fight to help women and babies….but I cannot let you say things that damage women in that fight.
Exactly how am I being “cavalier” in talking about my rape? Becuase I don’t bring it up in every post I write? And, how interesting, because it is a private wound to me, and happened long ago, you want to question whether it happened. And I’m the one who wants to damage women? Classy.
What grand final statement did I make that I am trying to qualify? And please stick to the facts, and this post.
I really can’t damage post-abortive women with facts (that have to be expressed with words.) Your suffering is not a badge of honor. So quit trying to lecture me.
Courtnay, I don’t know what your problem is, but stop attacking me. I never said my suffering was a badge of honor. Don’t tell me to “stick to the facts.” I don’t know what’s going on with you, but your anger is misdirected. Have a little kindness. Have some humility. You have said some awful things that hurt your comrades on this board, especially Carla. Just take a break and go outside for a while or something. I’m done with this conversation.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.
Romans 8:1
I am talking strictly to Christians here:
We need to be careful not to ascribe victimhood to sinners. Nowhere in God’s Word do you see the Lord portraying those who choose sin as victims. Eve was deceived as well as any woman who ever chose an abortion yet she was not let off the hook merely because she was deceived.
When we describe sinners in need of God’s mercy as “victims” it takes away the glory of God. It is easy to forgive a victim. But to forgive a sinner?? That God would forgive us sinners shows the awesomeness of God’s mercy and forgiveness.
I made sinful choices in my teens and early 20’s that I am still suffering the consequences of. There were pressures and reasons why I made those sinful choices but that in no way makes me a victim. I will never make myself out to be a victim of my sin. I am a sinner. I willfully chose wrong, no matter the circumstances, but God in His mercy forgave me when I repented and turned to Him. When we repent His forgiveness is immediate and total.
Those of us who have found forgiveness for our abortions know to the depths of our souls how we have been victimized. How we have fallen. And how God alone sees us, pursues us and rescues us from our sin. We understand what we have done. Truly. He does not let any one of us off the hook. I am what He says I am. I am more than my experience of abortion. It does not define me but God will use me to help other women find His healing.
How others want to frame our abortion experiences is up to them.
Maybe that is why there is such a bond with post abortive women. We know what we know without having to say it.
After reading this thread, I realize I need to apologize to post abortive women by the language I have chosen to use at times. Please know there has never been intent to hurt but only strong anger towards abortion (and often typing without thinking). I believe the percentage of women coerced to abort is even higher than stated and the fact that our country legalized it makes many believe nothing is wrong with it.
I do know how it feels to be judged for being raped and abused (what did you think would happen? you drank with him, got in a car with him, etc. or what did you do to make him so angry? You should have gotten home earlier, etc.) This judging also keeps abused women in their situation longer as well.
Had I not had a supportive mother, I would have probably aborted my firstborn because of all the pressure I was getting.
I realize I need to be more careful and will work harder at my language. Dear Carla and all other post-abortive women, please accept my sincere apology for the times I was judgemental.
If women who choose abortion are victims then what on earth do they have to be forgiven for?
Dear Praxedes,
I forgive you. :)
Sydney,
I still paid for it and submitted to it. I was there. I have asked for forgiveness for ALL of it. (my promiscuity and heavy drinking…)
Although I was lied to by omission and NEVER would have been there if I had known the truth about my baby. If I had known the truth about abortion or how it would nearly destroy my life.
Perhaps you and God need to have a heart to heart about it?
I cannot speak for all post abortive women. I have listened to hundreds of women over the years. Hundreds of stories of coercion, force, multiple abortions and women that knew exactly how far along they were, they saw their baby on ultrasound. All of us spiraled downward with drinking and drugs after our abortions and found our way to the Only One that can forgive and heal.
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.
Romans 8:26
God knows my story better than I do. He was there when I aborted and He was also there when I tried to commit suicide when I finally learned the truth about what my abortion had done to my child.
So grateful for His amazing grace and love and mercy over me. How He rejoices over me with singing!! While so many in this world call me a whore or a slut, or that I am a victim or I am not a victim, the God of the universe calls me His own. Wow.
I know many of my friends would not have had an abortion if they had known the hurt it would cause in their life. Some of them also were ignorant of how formed their babies were.
I do believe if Eve had known of the sin and horror that would enter the world because of her decision she would never have eaten the forbidden fruit. Doesn’t mean she was a victim.
I don’t argue about the fact you were lied to, manipulated, desperate etc… I absolutely believe that if you had known what you know now you would not have aborted. And I know how your abortion has wounded you. I’m not arguing that either.
I just think claiming women who aborted are victims absolves them of culpability.
I don’t think women who are post-abortive are any better or any worse than me or any other sinner. Are rapists victims? Are drug dealers victims? Are kids who disrespect their parents victims? Or only women are victims? Or only women who abort are victims? There is such a victimhood mentality in our nation where everyone has their reasons for doing why they did, and they are all victims and no one is responsible for anything. That mentality removes any need for repentance and mercy from a just yet loving God. Again, I know you have repented and know the forgiveness of God. i just cringe whenever i hear pro-lifers using “victim” in regards to women who abort. Deceived? Yes. Wounded? yes. But sinners in need of a Savior! Just like every single one of us.
According to the Bible I am a blasphemer, adulteress, liar, thief, AND a murderer (if you hate someone you are a murderer. Not only that but I used the pill so who knows how many children of my own I have killed?) And I know that I am forgiven. I will always have regret over my sin but I am not bound by guilt anymore because of Christ.
Thats all I am trying to say.
That mentality removes any need for repentance and mercy from a just yet loving God.
Yet, ALL postabortive women that have been forgiven have repented!! How else can we be forgiven?? Whether you believe them to be victims or not, Sydney we have repented and been forgiven. (I wish you could sit with me through a Rachel’s Vineyard retreat. Maybe you would understand.)
Are we not ALL deceived by satan?? Have we not ALL fallen victim to his deception, his lies?? Haven’t post abortive women been deceived by the one who has made a covenant with death??
i just cringe whenever i hear pro-lifers using “victim” in regards to women who abort.
Then I will be praying for you that you ask God to help you with your reaction to post abortive women when they are called victims.
TRUST GOD with the work He has done in his post abortive daughters who absolutely have repented and been forgiven by our loving Father. TRUST HIM that what He said He was going to do, He has done. TRUST HIM that the debt for my sin of abortion has been PAID IN FULL.
TRUST HIM that He has been just and compassionate with women who have aborted.
That’s all I am trying to say.
Maybe we are just arguing semantics here Carla. You know my heart is in the right place, as I know yours is too. ANY sinner who has been forgiven has repented. You just made my point!
Have we not all been deceived by Satan! Amen! Yes we have.
Would love to meet you face to face someday Carla and I would love to go to a Rachel’s Vineyard retreat if I was ever invited to one.
Everyone have a good night. I am craving pink cupcakes with pink frosting so I am heading to my kitchen now.
Love you Carla.
Love you too, Sydney.
Gerard, as this very site clearly demonstrates, there is a broad diversity of viewpoints within any particular aligned group. Do I need to expand on that concept?
If you ‘had a dollar for every time a proabort showed up here and elsewhere spouting the same claptrap about abortion ameliorating poverty’ then you would not be particularly wealthy. There are a small number of people who repeatedly push this line. It is obviously the more vocal whose position is more widely broadcast. The vast majority of pro-choicers do not, any more than the vast majority of anti-choicers espouse violence. Maybe it’s a bell curve thing.
Your statements regarding blacks and abortions is no more than the latest attempt at spurious propaganda. Another constructed angle of attack.
To state that all prochoicers have no heart, no soul, no imagination, no dedication to helping the poor is exceedingly inaccurate. I am a fervent pro-choicer yet have completely upended my financial circumstances and situation in life through supporting the needy.
Far from being a gratuitous dig at clergy, my deleted sentence in fact stated that to do so was demonstrably unjustified. Exactly as Gerard’s gratuitous dig at pro-choicers was demonstrably unjustified. But I accept the decision.
So, what have we learned? Abortion, rape, smoking, crossing the street without looking are all bad, bad things. But our “Don’t do thats!” and “Don’t go theres!” should be much, much louder than our “What were you thinkings?”
The pro-aborts love to say we only care about babies till they’re born. They’re wrong, of course. Well, we should care about post-abortives even more than we did beforehand.
When we describe sinners in need of God’s mercy as “victims” it takes away the glory of God.
NOTHING can take away the Glory of God!! NOTHING. AND NOBODY. His will be done.
He has called me His own. I don’t know why, but I am so thankful that He did. Now I pray for those that are looking for a way out of the darkness of abortion. I am holding out my hand to them.
I am not arguing btw. I just keep thinking of our conversation, Sydney. It has found me praising God in every moment for ALL I have since yesterday. So I want to thank you!!! I love Him more than I did yesterday!!!
I am no longer a victim. I am victorious in Christ as all of us are who have turned to Him. I am a new creation.
You think women who abort aren’t victims. I do. And here we are.
Have a blessed day in Him.
If you are struggling or suffering after your abortion there is hope and healing for you.
If you are trying to ease your pain through drinking or drugs, if you are struggling with nightmares or depression, guilt, anxiety, or shame there is help for you.
You can call The National Helpline for Abortion Recovery. They will get you in touch with post abortion counseling in your area. ALL of those that answer the phone are post abortive they have been there. They KNOW.
1-866-482-5433
Rachel’s Vineyard is a healing retreat for abortion recovery. They are held all over the world. I am a facilitator as well.
Find one in your area
http://www.rachelsvineyard.org
Your nearest CPC may have abortion recovery services available. Please call them.
Please email me if you would like to talk. I receive emails from women that are hurting but would never comment here. It is my joy to help.
carla@jillstanek.com
I love you.
I am praying for you.
Okay, why do you people(pro deathers there is no such thing as “pro choice”) get so offended when the result of the legislation that YOU voted for is put in your face. Have you ever asked yourselves WHY you get so mad when you have to look at the pieces of a baby who has been slaughtered because you voted for the legislation which allowed him or her to BE slaughtered in the first place? Could it be because on a base level of your humanity you know that SLAUGHTERING a helpless unborn child who has done nothing wrong to any one is, in fact, morally, ethically and absolutely WRONG on all levels. No matter the situation. Killing ANY human being is wrong. No matter WHERE that human being is geographically. A woman’s rights end where another human being’s nose begins. Even if that NOSE just happens to be in her uterus. I don’t care if it’s legal. Just because something is legal doesn’t make it right.