I have a new poll question up, in keeping with the latest flak over abortion:
Do you think abortion should be legal in cases of rape or incest?
Vote on the lower right side of the home page.
The last poll was revealing. Obviously and sadly, abortion permeates our culture….
As always, make comments to either the previous or current poll here, not on the Vizu website.
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Why is “I’m pro-choice: No” an option? Who’s going to vote that??
“Who’s going to vote that??”
Someone who thinks they’re being funny, I guess.
I’m also curious about who would say “yes” when they are supposedly “pro-life.”
The baby deserves life!
After we die, and we go to our judgement, your sins will or will not be held against us. Destroying innocent life is worthy of eternal separation!
Yes!
I am in favor of executing sexual predators.
hm, there’s no “i’m anti abortion: no” but that would be my vote.
I have a question for any of the ‘pro-life’ people out there. Does that include an exception to save the life of the mother?
@ts
I have never heard of a need for one.
What about ectopic pregnancy?
TS,
Of course it’d be acceptable in a life-threatening situation. That’s when it goes from weighing rights that are nothing alike to considering similar rights, and having to prioritize. The rights that preserve the most life make the most sense.
Removal of an ectopic pregnancy is not considered an abortion.
“In my thirty-six years in pediatric surgery I have never known of one instance where the child had to be be aborted to save the mother’s life.” Former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop
Even Planned Parenthood’s Dr. Alan Guttmacher acknowledged, “Today it is possible for almost any patient to be brought through pregnancy alive, unless she suffers from a fatal illness such as cancer or leukemia, and, if so, abortion would be unlikely to prolong, much less save, life.”
Carla, the only difference is that one is done with primary intention of killing the baby and the other is with an unavoidable consequence of killing the baby. So if you want make intentions a part of the definition of abortion then you could say that removal of an ectopic pregnancy is not abortion.
truthseeker says:
August 26, 2012 at 1:26 pm
What about ectopic pregnancy?
(Denise) My mother has said, “I’ve never had an abortion.”
She has not.
She once had an ectopic pregnancy that was in one of the fallopian tubes. It was removed. This is a treatment for ectopic pregnancy — a very special situation which should not be considered an abortion.
Carla, ya beat me. I was about to say the same. I remember that one of my family members safely delivered a couple of babies where the women had a history of ectopic pregnancies. I don’t remember any more of the details–it was quite a while back.
truthseeker, to my knowledge (I’ve been a nurse for over 10 years), an ectopic pregnancy is not viable, it will never make it to term and that baby will never grow in the fallopian tubes. What will happen as it gets bigger is that the tube will rupture and the mother will hemorrhage and possibly die. I don’t think there is any way possible to save the baby, it can’t be planted in the uterus at this point. It is not an abortion because there is nothing they can do to save the baby. In this case though, they can save the mother.
I know that the removal of an ectopic pregnancy is not usually discussed as an abortion, but I think we’re semantically trying to fool ourselves there. Heck, look at the language that has been used on this thread, by people I absolutely know are pro-life. “Removal of an ectopic pregnancy.” “Ectopic pregnancy is not viable.” “It gets bigger.” Do these euphemisms sound familiar? They should. We argue against them every day.
The child that dies when an ectopic pregnancy is ended is every bit as much a human child as every miscarried child and every aborted one. Their deaths are just a real and just as tragic. We should not talk about them as if they are just a “pregnancy” or an “it.” The fact that we don’t have the medical treatment available now to save them is not okay, it’s horrible, and it’s something that I hope science will be able to advance beyond.
It absolutely is not pro-life to let two people die when you could save one. A mother with an ectopic pregnancy will die unless the child is removed. But that doesn’t mean that the child who dies becomes an “it” or whatever other euphemism we want to use to try and make ourselves forget that somebody died. They don’t. They die. That may not be “considered” an abortion, but that child is just as dead. Just as surely as anyone else who dies. We should remember them, too.
A related point may be about rape itself and the reasons for it. I have an article about Columbus Stocking Strangler Carlton Michael Gary at http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/predators/carlton_gary/1.html
Of course, he murdered most of his victims making the question of abortion quite moot. It was pretty moot anyway since he chose victims likely to have been through menopause.
My 1st Ch. begins with something he said as a child to someone who asked him about his parents. He replied, “I don’t have any parents.”
This wasn’t literally true but may have reflected emotional truth. Born out of wedlock and shuffled around from mom to aunt to aunt, the child had little stability in his life.
Rapists aren’t a general cross-section of the male population. Although there are exceptions, rapists are generally drawn from that group of men who grew up without a strong, loving, and stable family background. They are often hostile, unfeeling, uncaring men because they grew up without the consistent and loving guidance that leads a boy to develop into even a halfway decent man.
I have a friend who was pregnant with a child who was severely malformed and would not survive, but the pregnancy was killing the mother. Similar to severe eclampsia and a point in pregnancy well before viability. They couldn’t wait until the baby died on her own because of the life threatening (for my friend) nature of things, so they did abort the baby. It’s the only case like it I have ever heard of. My friend has struggled with this for years, but it was the only way to save her life…and she had multiple opinions prior to the procedure.
I was careful to use the words baby three times. I know every pregnancy is a baby. When I used the phrase it gets bigger, it was referring to the baby I just spoke of! Of course ectopic pregnancies are horrible and tragic and I know and am close to people who have had them. I think your wording was a bit harsh because I would never try and forget someone died or use euphemisms to cover it up. I was merely trying to shed light on ectopic pregnancies that are out of anyone’s control (to my knowledge), versus an actual abortion. It would be wonderful for someone to discover a way to save those babies who are implanted ectopically and maybe they will someday!
Natalie,
I too know someone who was pregnant and had an infection. She was 19 weeks along. The INTENT of delivering her child that early was to save her life. In a hospital. With a dr. She cuddled her boy and held him as he died. That is not an abortion either.
Did your friend go to Planned Parenthood? Did she have a suction abortion that chopped her daughter into pieces ending that child’s life?
Or did they deliver her precious girl in a hospital and wrap her up so she could say goodbye?
Do you see the difference?
I think we can agree any loss of a child and/or the baby’s mother is certainly painful, tragic & sorrowful. I thought of an example of a mother, who was ready to give her life to save the life of her baby…Gianna Beretta Molla, M.D., who was canonized as a Saint in the Catholic Church. Just sayin that’s all. I’ll get back on the topic thread.
I was a premie decades ago when viability was considered much later than I was. I was delivered and cared for to the best of their ability to give me a chance at life. What PP and late term abortionists do is NOT merely to save the mother, but rather to intentionally destroy the child’s small body and any chance he or she might have had to survive. “Life of the mother” does not nor should it ever mean that the child’s body is deliberately and willfully harmed.
prolifist: I realized when writing the poll that it was unlikely an abortion proponent would say s/he thought abortion for rape/incest should be illegal, but you know what they say about assuming.
Why are rape and incest always put together in this type of question?
Although incest may be forced, as in the case of fathers raping teenaged daughters, it is not NECESSARILY non-consensual. What does an adult woman voluntarily having sex with her brother have in common with a woman who was attacked?
When I used the phrase it gets bigger, it was referring to the baby I just spoke of!
That’s what I mean by euphemism, though, and using distancing language. A baby is not an “it.” They are a “he” or “she.” Or a “they/them,” since gender-neutral pronouns are clunky in English. I don’t doubt that you absolutely are pro-life. And I know that in the case of ectopic pregnancies pro-lifers want to distance ourselves, semantically anyway, for two reasons. First, it’s very hard to face that we can’t save these children no matter what happens regarding abortion. And two, it’s important not to be harsh towards women who have dealt with ectopic pregnancies. But I believe we can face the first issue and we can discuss these things more honestly without causing the second. However, though I am not sorry for speaking up, as I’ve thought about it, I think you’re right: I was a bit harsh. I’m sorry for that.
It would be wonderful for someone to discover a way to save those babies who are implanted ectopically and maybe they will someday!
And may that day come soon. :)
I do wish truthseeker hadn’t derailed this thread so soon. Of course the life of the mother is the first priority when the baby can’t be saved.
Alice, you’re grammatically correct, but how are we to determine the gender of a child in an ectopic pregnancy?
The answer to the poll question is, of course, no! If we have to make a temporary deal with the devil at first, that would be regrettable. But, as in the “life of the mother” exception, it would be necessary to salvage at least some lives.
But our motto should be ninek’s: “100% Pro-Life!”
Thank you for apologizing Alice, when I looked back I was referring to the pregnancy as it. It was not a game of semantics, just rather than keep typing pregnancy, typed it. I am 100% pro-life, but maybe not the best at english I guess! I just want to clarify though that I have never thought medically or ethically an ectopic pregnancy was the same as an abortion. It (the ectopic pregnancy) is a tragic situation that cannot be helped. I would never treat anyone harshly period, whether they had an ectopic pregnancy or an abortion.
I’m sorry Hans as well that I got a bit off topic. I don’t think abortion should be legal in the instance of rape/incest. The baby shouldn’t have to pay for the sins of the father. I also think that is like saying murder is a lesser sin than rape, why add to the evil? I wish rapes never had to happen and it would be horrible to have that trauma, and then to get pregnant on top of it, but the child should not be punished.
Hans,
I am sorry too if my comment derailed the thread. There really is no room for nuance in responding to these polls. It reminds of something a friend told me the other day.
“My assumptions keep making an ass out of you and me”.
In a pre-Roe article about illegal abortions, I read the following: “I had the abortion because I couldn’t marry the father because he was my brother?”
Couldn’t she have married SOMEONE ELSE who would be the “social father” of the incestuously conceived?
(Thank you in to all who offered me words of support in my previous post. I am reposting this for the new people that have not read it )
……………..I am always amazed on how people have opinions on issues they have not even LIVED THEM SELVES!i am a RAPE VICTIM. I WAS RAPED AT THE AGE OF 14 AND became PREGNANT FROM THE RAPE. AS HAVING LIVED THIS EXPERIENCE MYSELF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can talk about it TRUTHFULLY. I WAS FORCED I SAY forced! to have an ABORTION BECAUSE OF people that think know better than GOD!!!!! THE STATE THOUGHT it was the best for me TO HAVE AN ABORTION!
i can say RAPE and ABORTION !!!!!!DON’T GO TOGETHER.
a Woman that becomes pregnant after being rape DOESN’T NEED AN ABORTION, ON THE CONTRARY the abortion is another form of rape and abuse!!!!!!!!!!!
Abortion after rape will damage even further the woman psychologically like it did to me at the age of 14, I lost myself because of the abortion! SO DON’T TALK TO ME ABOUT WHAT THE BEST THING FOR ME IS….yes for me because I am a rape victim and all I say ALL ALL ALL RAPE VICTIMS THAT I’VE ME IN COUSELING REGRET THEIR ABORTION.
I AM STILL LIVING THIS PAIN 30 YEARS LATER….. I STILL REGRET MY ABORTION EVEN IF THE CHILD WAS A PRODUCT OF THE RAPE!!!!!! don’t talk unles you have walked the walk…. live your life and if you don’t have the experience SHUT YOUR MOUTH AND KEEP YOU BOOK OPINION. I have basis for what I say while people that are quick to say “oh I think rape victims should have abortion are MISTAKEN! and one day one day GOD WILL make you see this. I REGRET MY ABORTION I REGRET KILLING MY CHILD EVEN THOUGH IT WAS A PRODUCT OF A RAPE INTERACTION. I pray everyday that God forgives me for being a participant at killing this innocent child that God sent to me as a product of a rape!
Elsa, You were only fourteen at the time and it is typical that none of us is able discern sound judgement at that young age. Who you are now has brought you to repentance and God’s forgiveness and mercy are surely upon you. May the peace of Jesus Christ be with you always.
(((((Elsa))))))
Thank you both for your words of encouragement….but the truth is the truth. I was 14 years old, I was raped and I was pregnant. They decided the best thing for me was abortion. I cried and weep, I screamed and sobbed and yet they all said….”your son is a bastard, son of a rape….you need to have an abortion..” the day of my abortion I tried and committed suicide by hanging myself, I didn’t succeed! I then poisoned my self, I didn’t succeed… I tried many methods to take away the pain of killing the baby product of a rape…. until I found the slow death…. NOW 30 years later and receiving daily therapy, I can scream to ALL THE PEOPLE WHO GIVE OPINIONS ABOUT OH IS OKAY TO HAVE AN ABORTION IF YOUR ARE RAPED!!!! ALL THOSE PEOPLE WHO I CAN softly say to them…YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT! book theories,, that is all the talk about… NON SENSE……. GOD LESS OPINIONS! no NO NO NO IT IS NOT THE BEST THING FOR ME,,,,, YOU ARE NOT GOD TO SAY THAT A CHILD PRODUCT OF A RAPE SHOULD BE KILLED, WHO ARE YOU TO SAY A CHILD SHOULD BE KILLED? ONLY BECAUSE THE WAY IT WAS CONCEIVED? one day.. God will stand upon this people who encourage other to do the killing and GOD ALONE WILL JUDGE THEM…. not I , I can only speak of the pain the abortion caused me and how it destroyed my life, it was not the rape that destroyed me, it was the killing of my baby! YES AND ALL OF YOU WHO THINK IS OKAY TO KILL ,just one day… before you take your last breath of life, you will be judge by the KING AND then only then you will see how WRONG WRONG WRONG your are.
Elsa,
Yell it out!! You will be SILENT NO MORE!! You will be heard!! We need your voice of truth!! Say it again and again and again!!
ABORTION DID NOT HEAL YOUR RAPE!
I am praying for you.
God bless you!
Food for thought ~
http://www.personhoodinitiative.com/ectopic-personhood.html
Wow Leslie, thank you for all that information. That was very educational!
Elsa, i pray for your healing. It IS possible.
God is our judge, but he is also merciful and loving. I hope you will experience some of that.
@Leslie
Your link 404’d.
Here’s Leslie’s link again. Maybe this one will work. Some excellent info on that link.
http://www.personhoodinitiative.com/ectopic-personhood.html
Elsa,
Hugs and prayers for you, for what you have suffered and for your future healing.
@Lrning
Yeah it works.
Romney again says Roe is “settled” law
“I’m in favor of abortion being legal in the case of rape and incest, and the health and life of the mother.”
And
“Recognize this is the decision that will be made by the Supreme Court,” he said. “The Democrats try and make this a political issue every four years, but this is a matter in the courts. It’s been settled for some time in the courts.”
So, is Romney saying abortion shouldn’t be an issue in this election? Sounds like it.
Hal, please cite your source and the context.
Hal, who cares. Obama’s to the death side of Romney.
I mean, seriously. Do you seriously think you’re going to discourage anyone from voting out the guy whose Illinois senate record is the reason this blog exists?
Please.
rasqual, I know why this blog exists. State Senator Obama had the nerve to vote against Jill’s Bill.
But, I highlight Romeny’s position just to let you guys know both political parties are on the “death side” of the issue compared to this blog.
State Senator Obama had the nerve to vote against Jill’s Bill.
Yeah, it sure takes a lot of nerve to vote against common sense. What a tuffy BO is.
If it weren’t for Jill’s tenacity, I would have never heard about BO’s vote on this topic so thanks Jill! I have also become a MUCH more vocal prolifer because of this blog and pulled over a few more to our side. So thanks again, Jill!
It is amazing what one little lady can do, isn’t Hal?
I actually do respect Jill’s commitment to this cause. The Obama hate I’ll never understand though.
I kno, rite? Who the heck understands hating someone who voted in favor of forcing newborns out of the womb so early with the expressed intent of them being left to die cold and alone! What a bunch of wackos.
Elsa I am so very sorry that society and your family couldn’t understand that God creates life. My mantra is “I was conceived in the mind of God not the loins of man” because my mother became pregnant after being raped by eight men. She didn’t deserve to be the mother of a dead baby like her mother and society thought. We are NOT compassionate by insulting mothers of rape conceived. Most aren’t believed if they want to save the life of their baby. How could women want that thing?
Wow how heartless people are. How arrogant to think that those living outside the womb can decide the value of those living inside the womb.
When people are targeted for death they get it. Why is it that it has to come to that? As long as we have exceptions pro lifers are saying they believe in choice too. They just happen to choose different babies to die.
Elsa YHWH lost His only son for our sake. He holds your baby and wishes that you find forgiveness for those who did such evil against you. He can handle them better than we can.
I’d love for you to talk with others that have gone through the same horror. You can contact me at juda@choices4life.org. My org. helps women and children of rape conception and helps those who lost their rape conceived child through abortion to find healing.
Thank you for sharing. Your testimony as horrible and hurtful as it is can spare others from going through this. Please share your story in as many places as possible so the world will know they are DEAD WRONG about mothers and children of rape conception. I’d love to share your story on the website too. God bless you.