Student defies Christian college administration and shows reality of abortion
“At Westmont, Jesus Christ holds preeminence. With our commitment to historic Christianity, we encourage students to integrate their beliefs with their studies and to live out their faith in service to others. Rooting the liberal arts in Christ means that we educate the whole person and encourage students to develop biblically based, intellectually strong convictions and worldviews.”
For three years pro-life student Seth Gruber (pictured left) petitioned the College Student Association and Executive Team at his Evangelical Christian college, Westmont, located in Santa Barbara, California, to allow him to sponsor the Center for Bio-Ethical Reform’s Genocide Awareness Project on campus.
For three years they said no.
Finally, on the morning of October 23, Seth decided to show the reality of abortion to students anyway.
With pro-lifers Todd Bullis and Timothy Eaton, Todd took a position outside the Dining Commons with graphic abortion signs.
After 1-1/2 hours two college officials tried to shut the pro-life activists down. They were successful in ousting Todd and Timothy but not Seth, since he is a student. Here is video of one student whose heart was converted when seeing the graphic photos and part of the exchange with the college officials…
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p7L0Th30TQ[/youtube]
Seth made an astute point with officials that while the school’s Global Focus Week addresses such issues as sex trafficking and child slavery, it never addresses the genocide of abortion.
Responded the official: “There are a lot of issues that are not addressed, so you can’t say that somehow because this issue is not addressed -”
Abortion is just another issue? Nothing special?
Bull. Abortion kills 1.2 million children a year in the U.S. alone. Find another issue that compares. And follow the dots. The increase in sex trafficking and child slavery is due in no small part to abortion and the shortage of – and subsequent demand for – girls, particularly in Asia.
The fact is, school officials are spineless. Who knows, they may even support abortion? But at the very least they consider abortion too hot a topic to touch. After all, taking a stand against abortion might alienate students or parents who decide to take their tuition elsewhere.
Seth returned to his post with his graphic signs on October 25. As he wrote me, “I plan to continue standing on campus twice a week and I already have more people who keep wanting to and volunteering to stand with me. I’m sure the numbers will continue to grow.”
Bravo, Seth. I couldn’t be prouder. I can’t imagine how hard it must be to withstand both a hostile administration and hostile peers. But God is cheering and so are millions of martyred babies. Read more at Seth’s blog.
Rescue those who are unjustly sentenced to death; don’t stand back and let them die. Don’t try to avoid responsibility by saying you didn’t know about it. For God knows all hearts, and he sees you. He keeps watch over your soul, and he knows you knew! And he will judge all people according to what they have done.
Click to enlarge, from Seth’s awareness campaign last week…
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Interesting… those two [in the bottom photo] find the images offensive but not the act of abortion itself.
The Crescat- I was thinking that same thing… I would get a sign that said “I find abortion offensive”
I’m kind of relieved that my daughter decided not to go to Westmont. I’m not sure, now, that I would have trusted the administration to provide her with a Christian education and social setting.
In my day it was the long hairs who were for free love, acid tripping etc. Good to see the activist kid has ALOT more sense then we did. Maybe the kids on the right of the pic were stoned.
Tim and I were told that we would be arrested if we did not leave. We just went to support and film Seth. It is sad that Seth had to do this by himself and the only two people willing to stand with him had to leave.
…sometimes, it’s the Christian students who have to model what following the Messiah (Christ) looks like for the administration/leadership…
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake
John 15:21 They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the One who sent me.
Matthew 10:22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Luke 21:16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death.
Luke 21:18 But not a hair of your head will perish.
Your a hero.
You rock.
Doesn’t look like he’s getting much of a reaction. As always, the best way to deal with something like this is to ignore it. He’ll get bored and go away soon enough.
Bravo Seth!
Thank you Seth and friends for standing up for what is right. Sometimes it takes civil disobedience to make positive changes in the world.
Proud of you Seth. Hope that meeting with the college president goes well, and that this will be the first step towards getting the school to actually write a pro life policy or belief statement.
I agree with Jill. The school officials are spineless cowards.
This is disgusting that they would try to shut him down.
No, Joan. He won’t get bored and go away, but you should.
Seth and his friends came off as callous and harsh towards people who abortion had affected. The campus is mainly a pro-life campus. I don’t know why no one sees that.
They already were pro life, they didn’t want to see the pictures. If they are already on his side, he is pushing them away telling them they are bad Christians for not looking at the pictures when THEY ARE ALREADY PRO LIFE.
Mike don’t be rude. That’s one of the “Don’ts” up there.
The school allows students to think for themselves. That is the best part. The students are taught the different sides of the issues, it is up to the student to decide what they believe. I applaud the school for the work they have done.
Westmont is a Christian School. And one of the best. Especially for not force feeding their students what they should believe in.
My son goes there, and I am proud of that fact. We had a great conversation about the issue and he told me how the students have been feeling about the way Seth handled it. I applaud Westmont for not forcing Seth to shut it down. I am glad Seth is standing up for what he believes in. I don’t applaud you who don’t know the school environment and judge it.
Seth, may God bless you abundantly in educating your peers.
Brenda,
You are right that most of the campus is pro-life at least verbally. They are pro-life by declaration but won’t lift a finger to stop the killing. Many at Westmont are “personally pro-life” but don’t think we should tell women that they don’t have the option to get an abortion. This is tantamount to saying that one is personally opposed to slavery but believes that their neighbor should have the right to own slaves, or that one is personally against rape, but doesn’t have any qualms against his or her neighbor raping kids on the block. A “personally pro-life” person is functionally no different than someone who is pro-choice, because both think we shouldn’t take that right away from women.
Furthermore, though not a majority, there are plenty of people at Westmont who are pro-abortion. Education must be brought to all of us in regards to this issue because it affects all of us and will continue to affect future generations if we don’t take a stand against it.
We have to ask ourselves if we care more about the feelings of born people or the lives of unborn people….
Amen Seth!!!
Praying for you!!
Brenda,
Are you talking about those that are post abortive? Seth and Todd were callous and harsh with them? I would need for you to cite some examples. Better yet……Todd and Seth are right here and could speak to that.
There is hope and healing after abortion.
http://www.rachelsvineyard.org
The intent of the graphic photos is TO WAKE US UP and STIR US TO ACTION!!
It is one thing to say you are prolife. It is quite another to roll up your sleeves and get busy.
Re: People are already pro-life. On the very first page of his book The Case for Life, Scott Klusendorf writes the following:
joan is back!!!!
joan says:
October 29, 2012 at 6:53 pm
“Doesn’t look like he’s getting much of a reaction. As always, the best way to deal with something like this is to ignore it. He’ll get bored and go away soon enough.”
=================================
From the story and video, it looks like he got plenty of notice.
But “getting bored and going away” is not our style, joan. Have you never heard of the 40 Days for Life Vigil?
The slave owners probably figgered that the abolitionist movement would die down from lack of enthusiasm, too.
I was very involved in prolife work during my undergraduate years, and I think the stand you are taking for women and for the unborn, Seth, is precious and right-on. I pray that God will give you favor with the school administration and courage to continue your advocacy for women and the unborn regardless of what happens. Abortion is abusive, and it is right to stand against this form of abuse.
Thanks you Seth for standing up for women and children. God Bless You!
Those old guys should be learning something from you.
What is sad is that these westmont folk say they are educating people onthe issue and then letting the students decide for themselves. But in alot of places women are choosing abortion because they don’t have choices. They are choosing, “choice,” because it has been offered to them as the only ‘choice,’ because the people in their community stay silent and “don’t talk about abortion.” If good Christian communities would tolerate people like Seth, they would realize what their silence is covering up, and that would be the fact that there are plenty of women in their own community having abortions because they have been shamed by their authority figures into silence.
James 2:14-26 NKJV - Faith Without Works Is Dead
The nearest Planned Parenthood is 5.13 miles away from where Seth is missioning to the young women at his college where the administrative officials are saying their young women don’t need any support, help or assistance, or any education information, who don’t even deserve the simple Right To Know of the dangerous effects of abortion!
Who knows if these college officials are even treating these young women as human beings worthy of their divine right to human dignity as being in the image and likeness of God. They are certainly leaving them vulnerable. If they are treating Seth that way, I can only imagine how they are likely to treat a young women in pregnancy crisis, considering how vigilant they are at sweeping ‘problems,’ under the carpet.
Seth’s ‘behavior,’ is nothing less than noble.
His is an act of Christlike courage.
The administrative officials in this video demonstrate unruly behavior.
Christian in name only. Tution is $35,650 per year at Westmont, 2nd only to the other abortion promoting “Christian” school, Pepperdine. I say this provides a pretty hefty and nice living for the adminstrators and professors. The disgust our Lord must feel is incomprehensible. I’d be pulling my money and my children out of this place in a heartbeat. Money, comfort, privilege are the only values some people understand.
This is to Brenda (and anyone else who thinks that post-abortive people don’t need to see what products of abortion look like)…
When we are confronted with sin, it is not so we leave feeling hurt, guilty, and angry that we were called out, but it is so we will acknowledge what we have done, ask for forgiveness, and turn away…permanently. This is life…to turn away from our sin for good, and turn to the only One who can absolve us from our blame and guilt: God.
The best thing that can happen to some post-abortive women (and men) is to be confronted with what really happened in the “clinic”, and then let the Holy Spirit do His work.
Those who think the pictures are “insensitive” don’t seem to be worried about the “insensitivity” of what was done to the baby humans that are depicted…
Seth,
Keep up the good work!
Brenda, what a fleshly response from a a “Christian” mother. Doesn’t the Bible say to expose the unfruitful works of darkness? Yes, it does. I applaud Seth for doing this.
If these kids are TRULY pro-life they would be standing with Seth. I assume these kids are already against sex trafficking? Yet the university felt the need to address that issue. But not abortion? Cause they’re already against it? Makes no sense does it?
No, Satan loves Christians like the kids at this school. He loves Christian moms like you. So luke warm. God says He will spew you out of His mouth. WAKE UP BRENDA. Some day you and your son will have to answer to the Lord for why you turned your eyes and pretended precious children made in His image weren’t being slaughtered down the street from your comfortable house. You WILL answer. What will you say to our Lord? That you were so glad your son went to a university where he wasn’t “force fed” the Bible and morality?
Amen amen Sydney M. You are right on.
Please do not make statements about Westmont when you know very little about it. Westmont is a christian liberal arts college where we are encouraged to participate in discussions of hot topic in order to form and develop our own beliefs and ideas. I personally as a student at Westmont college enjoy not being “force fed” beliefs but rather engaged in conversations about these issues. Global focus week has not side-stepped abortion– just because abortion has not been the main focus does not mean it isn’t being ignored. By promoting awareness of things like poverty and hunger, Westmont is encouraging students to be proactive in ending people’s suffering by giving and learning. Poverty is one of the main reasons used to justify the use of abortion. Women who are put into sex trafficking are forced to have abortions so that they can continue working.
I personally don’t have anything wrong with Seth’s beliefs or the reasons he had for doing it. I have an issue with the way it was done. I may be mistaken here so maybe I missed the point (and if it did then that should say something in itself about how the demonstration was received by students), but this was meant as a “call to action” to all “verbal pro-lifers” at Westmont so that they would see what abortion really looks like and be more inclined to pick up a sign and help protest outside an abortion clinic with the Center of Bio-ethical Reform. To me that’s not education, that’s recruitment. I would have received Seth’s message far better had he taken this as a true opportunity of education. I would have even been okay with the aborted baby pictures had they not been giant and paired with Bible verses. I think Seth jumped the gun here not waiting and be willing to work with Westmont on a less dramatic display. The same call to action could have been created and probably a more well receptive one had he come out there ready to converse and educate. The target people that desperately need to hear Seth’s message probably don’t have a well established relationship with God or have supportive families. They need education not signs that say they will be doomed and judged for the awful things they have done. And they are certainly not going to respond well to being “force fed” the Bible. Jesus taught us how to love and be loved. He didn’t stand in front of the prostitutes and tax collectors with signs condemning them for their sins; he ate with them and loved them, truly loved them with all of his being. As Christians at a Christian college we should be using love rather than shock and appall to get our message across. Maybe some of you don’t agree and think graphic pictures are the only thing that truly gets the point across because it stains that image into your mind forever. I don’t disagree with you on that. Those pictures truly illustrate what abortion is. However, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. More of a difference can be made if we were to make women who are debating abortion more comfortable both in their own skins and also in their relationship with both family and God. Many women who receive abortions don’t have the information, but the people who offer abortions make them feel like everything is going to be okay after this quick little procedure. We can stop that. We can give them a loving environment full of support and hope. But that is only going to happen if we stop using images of the dead to provoke the living. Mourning the dead children should be done, and they deserve to be remembered. But let’s not take the focus away from what can still be done for the babies not yet conceived. Let’s get information, good positive information that gives hope to struggling women out there so they do not make this choice and choose to live in community with the Body of Christ and the precious human being they carry. If Seth had set himself up at a table with facts and information on what abortion is (aborted baby pictures included) and its causes, and ways to get involved with at helplines, at risk women, homeless shelters and church programs, etc. I guarantee you more Westmont students would have stopped and talked. I personally would have. By promoting a healthier and more positive environment, more people would have been inclined to act. More people would have focused on the actually message rather than its delivery.
Poverty is one of the main reasons used to justify the use of abortion.
Right. So people need to stop justifying what they are doing to innocent humans. Visuals help people see reality. Ask any of your liberal art teachers if they think visuals help students learn.
I would have even been okay with the aborted baby pictures had they not been giant and paired with Bible verses.
So people should only be allowed to teach the way YOU want them to teach?
They need education not signs that say they will be doomed and judged for the awful things they have done.
Not sure were you’re seeing signs that says anyone is doomed. The photos depict humans who have already been doomed. As far as judging, if you do the crime, there are going to be those who judge you. Go throw rotten eggs at your classmates and see if you will be judged. Behave awfully, expect judgement.
But that is only going to happen if we stop using images of the dead to provoke the living.
Proof, please. How long has abortion been legal in our country? Were you alive then?
If Seth had set himself up at a table with facts and information on what abortion is I guarantee you more Westmont students would have stopped and talked.
So you will be volunteering to set up one of these tables at your campus? Great. Thanks so much. I’m looking forward to you letting us know how many people stop at your table. Let us know how quickly your administration gives you permission to do so.
P.S. Could you talk with someone at your college about the possibility of your taking an introduction class on constructing paragraphs? More people would be inclined to read what you have to say because it’s all about how you visually display what you want people to know. Many people will just skim what you have above without really stopping to read it because it’s such a poor visual.
Haley, you have just told me everything I need to know about your college. Your “own beliefs” are worthless. What are God’s beliefs? Do you think He is grieved when children created in His image are torn limb from limb in their mothers’ wombs? Or do you think He doesn’t care and would rather you not be “force fed” from HIS WORD? Good grief, you flabbergast me.
I suppose Haley also thinks we shouldn’t use images of the dead to teach about the Holocaust.
Last I checked, people are not forced to look at photos of the Holocaust in public, and without their consent.
Maybe “pro-lifers” should all chip in and fund an abortion museum?
joan, i thought were going to ignore this thread.
As a current Westmont student, I am frankly hurt by what you, my fellow brother and sisters in Christ (I’m assuming) are saying about my school. First of all, Seth is still there with the signs (I even saw him at the dining commons today with two other students). Second, I am pro-life. I vote pro-life. I, however, do not believe that God is calling me specifically to address this issue as Seth has. He (God) has not given me that same passion.
However, I find it interesting the way many of you seem to believe that the past week-or-so here has basically been a “persecute Seth” time. Seth is not a martyr for this cause. He is not hated for showing us pictures of dead babies. But personally I am offended (no, more hurt) by the way he handled this situation. It is no longer being addressed and dealt with by the Westmont Community (we’re really good about talking issues out over here…) but has made it into the news for you all, where you can criticize a school you really don’t understand. Brenda is right. Seth DOES have the right to stand out there, and Westmont has NOT forced him to shut it down. It is his right, and we as a community are respecting that.
As a result of Seth bringing this issue into greater light at Westmont, I think it would be beneficial for our college to organize a special focus week because of this issue. It DID happen a few years ago when some LBGT alumni wrote a letter to Westmont about their concern over the community life statement and feeling alienated. In this case, Westmont came together over this controversial issue to critically discuss in both chapels and evening events what the Bible had to say about this issue. It would also be unfair to say that Westmont is completely alienating Seth. He is in charge of the “Right to Life” club at Westmont and also organized a debate between two prominent pro-life and pro-choice speakers a few year ago (both of these things are allowed and supported by Westmont). The latter was a very popular and well-received event. So I would completely disagree with CityOfAngelsNativeMission.com, who said that it “is sad is that these westmont folk say they are educating people onthe issue and then letting the students decide for themselves.” The evidence simply doesn’t back that up, and frankly it is another lie that is hurts the students here. I believe it is GOOD to discuss these things and we SHOULD, but rumors about what Westmont is really like aren’t going to get us there.
Also, Jill, you challenged your readers to find an epidemic as widespread and volatile as abortion. How about hunger?870 million people do not have enough to eat and 98 percent of them live in developing countries.
10.9 million children under five die in developing countries each year. Malnutrition and hunger-related diseases cause 60 percent of the deaths. (and that’s only under the age of 5!!!)Good thing we’re addressing the topic of poverty this year.
Good thing we’re addressing the topic of poverty this year.
And has legal abortion caused people to be more or less compassionate towards others, especially children? Are less people hungry now than before legalized abortion? Abortion is the social issue.
You say Seth has a right to stand out there. Then why was he denied for three years?
Keep us filled in on how the prolife table works out. Make sure the photos are small and accompanied by bible versus.
Praxedes, I’m sorry. That last paragraph was a bit of a jab and slightly out of line. My point was that Jill was arguing that this is an issue of incomparable breadth, yet that’s simply not true.
Second, if you watch the video Seth does not say that he has been petitioning for three years to stand outside of out dining commons and protest. This is instead a result of the denial. Actually, and this is taken from his blog, he had been petitioning for the approval of the “Genocide Awareness Project.” To be honest, I’m not sure WHY Westmont denied this exactly. It doesn’t seem at all consistent at all with Westmont (we typically talk frankly about dozens of controversial topic, and, as I have pointed out, abortion has been among them). If you’d like to know the REAL thoughts of our community, you can check out this link:
http://blogs.westmont.edu/horizon/2012/10/25/editorial-the-anti-abortion-demonstration-was-a-misguided-spectacle-2/
Also, I wasn’t the one advocating for the pro-life table (though I do think that is a great idea that would definitely work at Westmont), so I think your jab was pointed toward another one of our sisters in Christ.
Last I checked, people are not forced to look at photos of the Holocaust in public, and without their consent.
I seem to recall something about German citizens having to tour the concentration camps shortly after they had been closed, though I don’t have a source for that. However, images of other horrible things are frequently displayed in public:
http://abortionno.org/index.php/public_education_projects/using_graphic_images_in_public/
And I don’t think anyone is holding people down with their eyelids stretched open. You’re “forced” to look at it for about a tenth of a second…
Actually Joan, shows how much you know. German school kids are FORCED to look at photos of the holocaust so that it NEVER happens again in their land.
Grace, Christ said what we do to the least of these among us, it is the same as if we did it to HIM. Be sure to tell Him you just felt it “wasn’t your issue” when you meet Him face to face.
And you know what they say about assuming. How do you know that we aren’t helping to feed the poor and aren’t involved in missions to 3rd world countries to bring them clean water and food and medicine? You assume we ONLY care about abortion? No. we care about every issue in which innocent human life is destroyed. Get on board.
Grace,
Killing the unborn is NOT a Christian solution to hunger…..the same people who care about hunger SHOULD care about the dismemberment of the unborn and if they were genuine people they would support Seth in every way possible in his abortion awareness campaign.
Sydney, I never said this “wasn’t my issue.” I said God hasn’t given me the same PASSION. There’s a difference. I’m passionate about giving Bibles to people who don’t have God’s word in their language; I’m passionate about caring for women who are domestic violence victims and about advocating for child welfare. I’m passionate about racial equality and sound, theological education. These are things God has given me a PASSION for, but this does not mean that I believe that I don’t have a RESPONSIBILITY to pray for the end of abortion and with my vote advocate against it.
Also, please re-read my posts. I never assumed that, Sydney, and apologize if you felt any sort of condemnation from me. I’m guessing that you felt as though I thought you and others on this board were overly obsessed with abortion yet didn’t engage in issues such as hunger (which I addressed). I don’t know your hearts and I don’t know you, so I could never make that jump and I never would. Please give me the same courtesy.
truthseeker, I never claimed that it was a solution. I was just pointing out that Westmont’s topic for global focus week is relevant to preserving life in the world, which is the same goal of abortion abolitionists.
Then why do you let your administration ban the genocide awareness campaign as a part the focus?
First of all, the genocide awareness campaign was never an option for global focus week. That was an argument made by Jill. She said it SHOULD be.
Second, I am not in charge of the organization for global focus week, that is an on campus student organization.
Third, college’s aren’t democracies. I don’t get to vote on everything that is brought before the administration. Therefore, I didn’t LET them do anything.
Fourth, I had no idea Seth was even trying to pass a genocide awareness campaign.
seriously, the ignorance in some of these posts makes me so mad. evangelism and getting God’s word out there is NOT supposed to be in your face. it actually drives people away from the messages you are trying to get out there. haley is so right, there are better ways to do this. pro-life is a great message, but this is NOT the way to preach it.
I became pro-life after seeing my first graphic abortion photo. This IS the way to preach it to those that need to see it.
Grace, my apologies for mixing you up with Haley. Other than you use paragraphs, you and Haley sound like you have the same mindsets. I wrongly assumed Haley was responding.
You stated that, “we’re really good about talking issues out over here” but then go on to state ”I’m not sure WHY Westmont denied this exactly.” You also say, ” I had no idea Seth was even trying to pass a genocide awareness campaign.”
I guess your school isn’t as good at talking about these issues as you say they are. Maybe you should investigate a bit.
Also, I wasn’t the one advocating for the pro-life table (though I do think that is a great idea that would definitely work at Westmont),
Right. You were the one changing the topic to one of starving people. I guess killing humans certainly prevents them from being hungry.
The fact that our biggest proabort trolls agree with Haley and Anonymous’ view on the topic of showing abortion photos tells me everything I need to know about the effectiveness of these photos.
Who did you vote for last presidential election? Who are you voting for this time?
“I became pro-life after seeing my first graphic abortion photo. This IS the way to preach it to those that need to see it.”
Yup. Each time the laughably-named “Center for Bio-Ethical [sic] Reform” clown show/abortion stock photo festival rolls through town, it leaves throngs of converts to the cause in its wake. These unemployable miscreants will permanently alter the political landscape any day now, I’m sure.
Anonymous, would you have the same animosity towards missionaries who show pictures or videos of starving children as part of their awareness campaign?
joan, first question – do you find those pictures of abortion to be offensive?
second question – do you find the act of committing abortion to be offensive?
Anonymous: I reckon you take umbrage with the apostle Paul as well, then, whose frank and declarative words of the gospel — publicly and controversially asserted in the synagogues — led the Jewish leadership of his day to seek his death.
Um . . . dittos to Jesus’ words to the Pharisees, who wanted every neat theological and politically correct t crossed and i dotted.
Real life is not so neat.
Sin boldly.
I also became pro-life after seeing a graphic photo of an aborted baby. How do you adequately convey the horror of abortion and that it is an actual baby getting torn apart without using graphic photos? Just wondering. How do you light a fire underneath people so hard-hearted that they don’t feel passionate about ending abortion. Haley? Grace?
I also feel passionate about spreading the gospel. That is why I feel such righteous anger when I see fellow Christians absolutely unconcerned at the number 1 cause of death on this planet. Did you know abortion is the number one cause of death on earth? Did you know women who are so desperate they would consider KILLING THEIR OWN BABY are ripe for the harvest? THEY are who Christ was talking about when he said the harvest was plentious but the laborers were few! What an untouched mission field! Come on Grace! Get passionate! Women who kill their babies are often so grieved they then kill themselves. Thrust into eternity without Christ. You say you care about the gospel? Then you ought to care about abortion!
I think the point I was previously trying to get across was missed altogether or just plain ignored. I never said I didn’t think abortion was an important topic. In fact I went to a christian all-girls school where we spent a semester of our religious studies class learning about abortion and the right to life. The part that affected me the most was the testimonies of women and how their perspectives changed once they learned about what really was happening inside their bodies and during that procedure. I think discussing abortion is important and necessary but the fact remains that many found the display offensive (their own opinions, “worthless” or not). One of the main things that upset students was that the first day this occurred was on a preview day where perspective students came for a visit. Whether or not you would have personally appreciated such a display, the kids visiting were still mainly minors who cannot be shown such graphic images without parental consent.
My words were taken out of context. The main point of my post was to suggest an alternative solution. I never said “my way” was the only way to get people to listen and become pro-life. My suggestion of an information table has been used on several different occasions at Westmont for different awareness projects. Whether or not they would approve it for Seth is a whole other issue which I have no input into. Also, I never said I opposed graphic images, I just suggested that an alternative could be used in this particular situations and ones like it where the majority of the audience is already pro-life but don’t have the necessary information to become proactive themselves.
P.S. Please don’t ever assume someone is pro-choice just because they disagree with such a radical display; I never stated my position so please don’t make one up for me. Also, I tried to remain polite in my post and I think it is a shame that some of you felt you had to be condescending to get your points across to me (maybe it wasn’t intentional or maybe it was). And Sydney, abortion isn’t the number one cause of death in the world– it is heart disease. http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs310/en/index.html
Heart disease…kills over time (senior citizens and the elderly)….abortion is the number one killer of healthy people.
“Also, Jill, you challenged your readers to find an epidemic as widespread and volatile as abortion. How about hunger?870 million people do not have enough to eat and 98 percent of them live in developing countries.
10.9 million children under five die in developing countries each year. Malnutrition and hunger-related diseases cause 60 percent of the deaths. (and that’s only under the age of 5!!!)Good thing we’re addressing the topic of poverty this year.”
I agree with you, Grace. Poverty is a huge issue. Abortion isn’t the only important issue by a long shot, and I think different people are better at addressing specific iproblems than other people are. The preventable deaths caused by poverty (malnutrition, disease, etc) are just as tragic as deaths caused by abortion. I am actually not sure why people are taking such issue with your post.
Still wrong, truthseeker (huh, ironic).
http://www.who.int/healthinfo/global_burden_disease/GBD_report_2004update_part2.pdf
http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/usa-cause-of-death-by-age-and-gender
The correct answer was automobile accidents.
“The fact that our biggest proabort trolls agree with Haley and Anonymous’ view on the topic of showing abortion photos tells me everything I need to know about the effectiveness of these photos.”
Eh? I don’t like graphic photos either, in some circumstances. Joan isn’t 100% wrong at all times, even a broken clock is right twice a day.
“You catch more flies with honey than vinegar”, I think Haley posted.
Yep, should have told that to the slaveowners of the south (Civil War), the Nazi’s (WW II) and now Islamic terrorists.
The shedding of inncoent blood is repaid by the shedding of blood. This is a spiritual law, God is not mocked.
“Still wrong, truthseeker (huh, ironic).”
You are joking right Anonymous? There are less than 100 automobile deaths a day in the US and about 3500 abortions. That means there are 35 times more deaths by abortion then by automobile. Does that mean you are as wildly wrong about the graphic photo issue too? :)
And btw – truthseeker doesn’t mean always right. It means always seeking the ‘truth’ and often finding out you were wrong along the way. Just NOT wrong this time. In fact I am 35 times more right then you are.
Jack, the point is that anybody who genuinely cares about starving children would care as much or more about children getting dismembered. If they don’t then they would have to be schizophrenic. There is a difference in urgency. I agree that stopping hunger and disease is a noble cause but If I see that same hungry kid is about to get their arms and legs torn from their body it seems to demand more immediate attention.
“Jack, the point is that anybody who genuinely cares about starving children would care as much or more about children getting dismembered. If they don’t then they would have be schizophrenic.”
I am pretty sure that Grace specifically stated that she is pro-life, and votes pro-life. If she feels that she is more suited to help with social issues in an area like anti-poverty I’m not going to tell her she’s somehow a failure. Not everyone is going to have pro-life work as the most social justice work they do, some people are suited (or, I guess if they feel it’s a religious thing, called) for other things. I’m not gonna judge her for it. If she agrees in the humanity of the unborn and votes to protect them that’s good enough.
Oh, and Anonymous, the 3 people who liked your comment to me at 1:54 a.m. are also 35 times wronger…lol
I agree Jack. I would call her noble for all the work she does fighting poverty. But if she doesn’t feel moved to stop somebody from dismembering those kids she is feeding (at least moved enough to support somebody else in their efforts to help said child) then she would also be nutsy-cuckoo.
Did anyone here specifically state Grace was not prolife? I don’t see were anyone here assumed Grace or Haley were anything but prolife but please correct me if I am wrong. Maybe Haley and Grace should re-read their posts to see if they come off as condescending. Other issues seem to be more important to them, but yet they brought themselves here to judge Seth’s prolife, peaceful actions. I don’t go to sites that help feed the hungry and tell them that is wrong to use graphic pics of starving people.
Whether or not you would have personally appreciated such a display, the kids visiting were still mainly minors who cannot be shown such graphic images without parental consent.
Really? Haven’t the parents given consent for these kids to be on campus? If your campus had a prolife table, would it be checking IDs before handing out flyers with aborted humans in them? Are high school teachers who use photos of the Holocaust breaking the law? Who decides what pics are too graphic? Sounds like your school might be afraid of scaring away potential customers. There’s that money thing you know. Don’t ruffle feathers and all that.
Two prolifers standing with Seth were threatened with arrest. Seth was left standing alone. It takes a strong Christian to stand up against such fierce opposition. Talking the talk is just that. Walking the walk is a whole different ballgame. Thank you, Seth; you are a way stronger prolifer than I am.
I am actually not sure why people are taking such issue with your post.
I am actually not sure why you’re not.
If she agrees in the humanity of the unborn and votes to protect them that’s good enough.
If she agrees in the humanity of the starving and votes to protect them that’s good enough, too, eh?
“I am actually not sure why you’re not.”
I don’t see anything offensive in Grace’s post. I didn’t read Haley’s because I can’t read huge blocks of text very well (no offense intended Haley).
“If she agrees in the humanity of the starving and votes to protect them that’s good enough, too, eh?”
Yup. If she wasn’t suited to work against poverty and turned her attention to other issues, as long as she didn’t work against measures to help reduce starvation that’s good enough. Not everyone can be involved in every social problem. When I have time for social justice work I spend like 40% of my time with pro-life stuff, the rest of my time goes to volunteering at the youth homeless shelter. It doesn’t mean that I am somehow not caring enough about abortion because there are other issues I am suited to tackle.
Seeing the humanity in humans and voting a certain way are not enough to feed the hungry, Jack.
Feeding the starving saves them from starvation. All the votes in the world, won’t.
How much time and money do people have though? We all have limited ability to help people, and we all make decisions on how to use that time. Everyone can’t be involved in every single thing that needs to be done, we all gotta do what we think we’re best suited for.
Aninnyms October 30, 2012 at 8:27 pm “evangelism and getting God’s word out there is NOT supposed to be in your face.”
a ninny ms,
I do believe you have confused ‘evangelism’ with social activism.
These folks aren’t attempting to make disciples, but to inform an apathetic and indifferent culture.
They are not proclaiming the gospel but alerting the unsuspecting.
Here is my issue with Haley and Grace. Number one, you both claim to be Christians but Haley I think said she was offended by the Word of God being displayed on the posters. Was the Word being used in a blasphemous way? Taken out of context? Then why would you, a Christian, be offended by the Word of God?
Number 2, you all might not like to look at abortion photos but maybe because it makes you a little less able to brush the issue aside and pretend you’re just not “passionate” about it. Maybe you hate those photos because those little broken bodies prick your conscience and scream at you that you should be doing SOMETHING to stem the flow of blood in this land.
I know friends who had driving infractions had to take classes and in the driving classes they showed horrible videos with graphic, bloody scenes in them to drive home the point that driving safely is VITAL. Because showing graphic truth CHANGES how people act and behave.
Grace, do you know that I have also heard many testimonies of post-abortive women who saw photos of aborted babies and THAT is when they realized that they had bought a lie and killed their own child.
Imagine if someone told you that a politician had said something horrible. Would you believe it? Or would you want to see the video evidence that the politician had said something horrible?
If we tell people “Abortion kills a human being. You’re just going to have to take our word for it.” Would that be as effective as “Abortion kills a human being and here is the proof! Look with your own eyes and see that what we say is true!”
Grace and Haley, you know who agrees with you? You know who wants to hide the broken bodies of these babies? The abortionists.
Hi all,
I am a recent Westmont alum, and I’d like to address some remarks that have been made about our campus (and echo others who have posted here to defend it).
1) Westmont is Christian, in much more than name only. I think faculty, staff and students would all agree. It is also not the most expensive Christian college, by a long shot. Please do research before making claims that simply aren’t true. Westmont has also done much to keep tuition and fees low despite inflation, including freezing faculty pay for a time. Some other Christian colleges have not done as much, and their tuition prices have increased much more than Westmont’s has over the last several years. To suggest that Westmont faculty & administration only care about money is an un-called for and unfounded judgment on their characters.
2) Westmont has an excellent student life staff and counseling service. I guarantee that if a woman seeking pregnancy advice went to the counseling center for help, they would not turn her away and would treat her in a loving and compassionate manner. (Now I cannot speak from personal experience on this exact issue but from other experience with the staff – if someone has had a bad experience going to counseling for this issue, I would be shocked and saddened, because that would be so unlike the response I would expect from them.)
3) Westmont students often suffer from the overcommitment bug because of all the social issues discussed on campus. I’m all for being as active as possible in Christian campaigns, but I do agree that God has given us a passion for different issues and has blessed us with different abilities to combat those issues. Too often, Westmont students try so hard to fight every social battle and end up making little progress in any of them (and neglecting their academic work). The result is a burn-out or disillusionment.
You’re right – we need people to be passionate and bold in the campaign against abortion, but we also need that same commitment in the fight against trafficking, poverty and the myriad of other issues facing our world. And every person cannot give their all to every issue. That’s why we’re a body. We can work together, using our various abilities and passions to combat social issues as a unit, each member doing his or her part in the area God has called them to. That’s not to say he or she should ignore all the other issues in the world – hardly! But I don’t think we ought to criticize other members of the body for focusing on an issue God has given them passion and gifts to fight (like Seth and his call to fight abortion). Even if we can’t devote all our time to every issue, we can stand with each other in prayer and encouragement (and the vote, if relevant).
4) Generally, the Westmont community is good at talking about issues. Not always – it took quite a bit of stirring over the course of many years for the administration to acknowledge the LGBT discussion that was happening on campus and among members of the community. So I agree with both sides of the discussion here: generally, yes, Westmont talks. Westmont doesn’t shove under the rug. But Westmont is not perfect in this regard and does sometimes need a little push.
That being said, I agree that graphic images may be the best road for some people to become passionate about pro-life issues. That’s why I’m not against what Seth did, and I very much admire Seth for having the courage to do what he believes to be right in the face of opposition. That takes guts, and we need more people with guts.
However, as others have pointed out, different people respond to different stimuli. Some are moved by graphic images; others are moved by facts and figures; still others are moved by personal testimonies. I think perhaps a multi-faceted campaign would have reached more people, especially if resources were also provided for people looking to become involved in the pro-life movement (local crisis center volunteer options, etc.). The debate that Seth organized on campus may also have sparked passion in some members of the community who respond to that kind of thing. I’m not arguing against Seth’s choice of demonstration; I’m merely suggesting maybe he augment his graphic images with other resources to “hit home” with more of the community.
I know Seth personally – he’s a great guy, and I’ve talked with him about his abolitionist calling. God has given him such a passion, and I hope he continues to pursue that. Perhaps more dialogue with the community about what avenues might stir that same passion in others would help his campaign to be more successful in the future.
Let me clarify something in my comment above about Westmont’s tuition:
I just reread the comment relating to Westmont’s tuition (as second-highest behind Pepperdine). Perhaps the intent of the comment was to compare Christian colleges in CA/West Coast or with a certain size of student body. If that’s the case, then you are probably right based on the research I’ve done. The other Christian schools whose tuition I know is higher are not on the West Coast and have larger student bodies. I apologize for suggesting you had not done your research if this was indeed the intent.
I would, however, submit that Westmont does have extensive financial aid and scholarship programs that make the school much more accessible despite the $50k+ yearly expense on paper. The gist of my comment was that Westmont is not a money-grubbing institution.
I didn’t read Haley’s because I can’t read huge blocks of text very well
Thanks for making my point about using visuals to teach people.
Everyone can’t be involved in every single thing that needs to be done, we all gotta do what we think we’re best suited for.
Right, then prolifers need to layoff those who are best suited to use visuals of abortion. That has not happened with Seth at his campus nor on this thread.
To suggest that Westmont faculty & administration only care about money is an un-called for and unfounded judgment on their characters.
Show me where someone here says Westmont faculty and administration ONLY care about money but are you saying money is not a factor in any of their decisions at all? Are you saying that Seth has not ticked off any donating alumni? Investigate.
To Praxedes:
I’m sure he has ticked off some donating alumni, and that may have factored into the college’s decision. I would hope it did not, but I do not know the reality of their motivations and you may very well be right. My point was that money is not the primary driving force behind the college’s decisions and that Westmont is much more than a business.
I was responding primarily to a comment from Hisman on the money issue, in which he or she states that “Money, comfort, privilege are the only values some people understand,” which I took to mean that he or she thinks Westmont primarily values money, comfort and privilege above all else. If I have misinterpreted that comment, I apologize. I do tend to get a bit defensive when it comes to my alma mater :) But I don’t think that prevents me from seeing the flaws in the institution; there are many (as in all institutions and people). In my experience, an inordinate love of money has not been one of those flaws. I pray that assessment is true.
Also (and then I will leave off) – there are pro-choice Christians (and probably pro-choice non-Christians) at Westmont who firmly believe in the truth of their convictions. And they would probably be open to a conversation about the matter in which both parties, in the spirit of Christian truth-seeking, could exchange their views. As aforementioned, the debate Seth organized on campus was a good start in this direction. I hope that the new campaign does not hurt the progress that was made during that debate. I think some students felt the graphic images were stirring, yes, but also very condemning while offering little in the way of information or an invitation to dialogue. In all likelihood, the pro-choice students may have seen images like that before, in which case the images alone may not be as effective as images paired with other resources. Again – perhaps a multifaceted campaign would better reach the multi-faceted community, pro-life, pro-choice and everyone in-between.
there are pro-choice Christians
Ahhhh, here we go, the true myth of the pro-choice Christian. . . . . .
*Clarification in regards to Westmont College and Pro-Life: While I do believe with what most have said, that Westmont is predominately pro-life, I believe we need to define terms due to how emotionally charged this issue becomes.For example, I have run into and spoken to ALOT of people at Westmont who upon further questioning admit to being personally opposed to abortion, but don’t believe we have the right to tell other women they can’t get abortions, or that it needs to remain their choice. This is tantamount to saying that one is personally opposed to slavery but that their neighbor should have the right to own as many slaves as he/she wants, and that they certainly wouldn’t hold that right from them.This is a misunderstanding of views, in fact they are two contradictory view points being held at the same time…. If abortion is wrong, then it is wrong objectively, and we cannot fall into such intellectual dishonesty by only being personally pro-life.So when people say in response to what I’m doing, that Westmont is already mainly pro-life, I must clarify that a large percentage of those people that are Pro-life are in fact “personally” pro-life, which is functionally no different from being pro-abortion.Lastly, if westmont is truly predominately pro-life, then what are they doing against abortion?I love this college, and that’s why I want us to have a gospel-centered response to the abortion issue that says: “What can we do?”
Seth:
“Personally pro-life” is like personally Christian: without the proclamation it’s nothing. Paul’s epistle to the Romans opens with the apostle’s declaration of the raison d’etre of his calling: to bring about obedience apropos of the faith, among the gentiles.
To bring about obedience apropos of the faith. Not exactly in cliche contradiction with James…
Pro-life should be nothing less.
I can see what you are up against after reading the comments here, at your blog and at Westmont’s site, Seth.
Westmont does seem to have some outspoken intellectually dishonest “prolifers”. I compare their arguments to someone saying, “I personally would never rape anyone, but I don’t think I have the right to tell others they can’t rape.”
I pointed out a bit of the dishonesty on this thread and could go through it all again and point out more. It speaks volumes that they don’t come back and answer simple questions.
I know how hard and hurtful if can be to feel like you stand alone. When I get down and disheartened, it’s young people like you (and Jill’s blog!) that remind me I can keep going too. Keep up the good fight, brave soldier. God Bless.
To Praxedes:
(in regards to the pro-choice Christian)
As a pro-life Christian, I honestly can’t relate to the pro-choice viewpoint. But there are Christians I greatly respect and whose relationships with Christ I would not deny (were it even my place to) that espouse pro-choice arguments. Though for us the issue may be cut-and-dried, for many Christians it is not, or it seems cut-and-dried in the other extreme. It is worth our while to understand why other Christians have these views, for purposes of both dialogue and change. To make the blanket assumption that pro-choice Christians cannot actually be Christians (as your post seems to imply; correct me if I’ve interpreted wrongly) is alienating and ultimately unproductive for everyone, especially abolitionists.
I can speak to this perspective personally. In regards to other hotly-disputed Christian topics, I have seen comments/editorials that assume one cannot be Christian and believe X (X being something I firmly believe, after careful study and prayer). My reaction is to chew someone out or to somehow “defend” my relationship with Christ, not to engage in discussion or to be open to changing my views. I’m sure pro-choice Christians who read statements like yours react in similar ways – which is counterproductive to the objective of campaigns like Seth’s that attempt to bring about dialogue and social change. Conviction? Sure, that can be deeply effective. But for me personally (and I would imagine for others), I feel more convicted if someone starts from the perspective that I am a Christian, and that because I am a Christian, these issues ought to stir me, rather than telling me I must not be a Christian (or can only be a very poor one) and therefore I should change my views. This jives with Paul’s approach. He did not tell the misbehaving early churches that they were obviously not Christians, but he did call them to a higher standard because of their faith.
Officially my all time favorite thread. Thank you, Jill.
!!
Paul didn’t have to tell the early Church that because the contrast between Christians and non-Christians spoke for itself, as it does here.
As the early Church grew and spread false Christians were addressed.
Read the Bible, and learn more.
But there are Christians I greatly respect and whose relationships with Christ I would not deny (were it even my place to) that espouse pro-choice arguments.
And this is your right, Carrie. I cannot and will not respect someone who believes it should be legal to kill unborn humans. People have to earn my respect . I don’t give my respect to just anyone based on other’s attempts to guilt me into it. I don’t respect anyone who is “personally” prolife either.
Please answer these questions: Am I still a Christian if I don’t respect pro-choicers? Is a man that rapes and beats his wife and children and calls himself a Christian, still a Christian in your eyes? Who are you voting for?
To Praxedes:
1) I’m not going to tell you you’re not a Christian. I don’t know you well enough to judge that, but from what I’ve seen, I know you hold your convictions strongly and I don’t doubt you have a relationship with Christ. I also understand that you don’t respect pro-choicers. But I would hope you would view them as misguided brothers and sisters, not non-believers by default.
(And in the cases I’m referring to, these people have earned my respect by living Godly lives, and it was only later I found out they’re pro-choice. I find it hard to reconcile. But I also can’t forget the integrity with which they live their lives otherwise. And that’s precisely why I want to find out why they believe what they believe. *I am not saying that I think it’s okay for anyone to believe something that is wrong. Truth is objective. But I want to know why they believe what they believe so that I can better participate in the truth-seeking dialogue. I can’t fight what I don’t understand.)
2) Would I question it? Definitely. And if otherwise he acted righteously (maybe I found out about the rape/abuse after 10 years of knowing the guy), then I’d certainly be confused, troubled. And I would obviously agree that he’s not acting particularly Christlike, and that those actions may be indicative of the condition of the heart. Perhaps he is Christian in name only. But I am as guilty of breaking God’s laws and his heart as that man. My repeated offenses do not necessarily make me a non-believer, just a sinner in continual need of grace and the reminder that I’m called to be better.
3) I don’t mind sharing: I voted for Romney, for a variety of reasons. I don’t think he’s an ideal candidate by a long shot, however.
I didn’t come on this thread to argue; I came on to address some comments about the Westmont community and to defend Seth’s actions to those who say he’s flat out wrong to show graphic images, which can be effective in the right setting. I applaud his passion and I hope this whole incident can become a catalyst for positive discussion and social change, not something divisive that pits Christians against each other rather than against the true Opposition. I’m aware of the tendency in myself to turn discussion into a selfishly-motivated argument, which I do not want to do here. So to that end, I’m bowing out. I pray that I’ve answered your questions with integrity; thanks for engaging.
I find it hard to reconcile.
You may find it is hard to reconcile because it’s not something to be reconciled.
After seeing the graphic photos of murdered unborn children that Seth and other prolifers show them, how does a Christian continue to justify abortion? If he/she does not look at himself and work to make a change, he/she is not a Christian.
As you stated, some people are Christian in name only. You imply as much yourself about a violent husband/father that I implied about a prochoicer who claims to be a Christian.
I applaud his passion and I hope this whole incident can become a catalyst for positive discussion and social change, not something divisive that pits Christians against each other
This topic will pit Christians against prochoicers, CINOs and CINOprochoicers. This should not surprise Christians.
By their fruits you will know them.
In any setting Seth’s pictures are appropriate.
The killing has to end. Even one extermination is not ‘ok.’ If you were a fetus about to be aborted, you would agree. And that is where the love of Christ places all Christians.
They should be posted on the outside of all Christian church’s.
And as far as being displayed in school’s, they should be in history books.
As abortion, should already be a think of the past.
When abortion is criminalized, men like Seth, Eric Snyder and grops like The Survivors and Issues 4 LIFE will be in history books next to these pictures of slaughtered babies, and so will Cecil Richards and BHO and George Tiller.
There is a fantastic feature film about Peter & Paul starring Anthony Hopkins as Paul, and Carrie, I suggest you check it out especially. Paul was liberating the early Church from the old Jewish traditions and customs of rule, for Christ came with a new covenant. Peter was instituted in the old Jewish customs of worshipping God as well as the new. The Peter Church was nurturing in Jerusalem was not prospering, and was perishing. Paul was ousted from the new church for breaking with custom, so like Seth, he said screw it and followed God’s calling elsewhere. The film doesn’t show it, but he tried going to Asia w/Barnubus, and was instead driven by God to Asia minor. What I say is that if you are SEEKING the truth, you will find it. But if you are using truth seeking as a cover to stay complacent, you’re lukewarm, and Christ will spit you out if you die in that condition.
Paul and Peter were in conflict over mortifications of the flesh.
Neither Saint was in defense of mercy killing infants.
We all struggle. We all are guilty of malice in our hearts, but God help us.
Americans accept a cultural practice that involves a blood sacrifice on the behalf of children, to maintain that comfortable complacency. Good Christians are staying silent to maintain our complacency.
Abortion is blasphemy and an abomination to God.
Of course in any theatre of battle, there needs to be some sort of strategy, but the Seth is fighting the school’s complacency with the right medicine. Those pictures will get people talking and already they are out from behind their desks, even if it is to contain Seth, they are standing up for life. I hope they recieve the grace to realize, like Saul and Norma McCorvey, that Christ is the thing to defend, not to persecute, and then in turn, defend it with a the passion of a Christian. A true believer.
Will my identify really be kept a secret here? There’s much I would like to say here…
In response to the Westmont parent who said the following:
The school allows students to think for themselves. That is the best part. The students are taught the different sides of the issues, it is up to the student to decide what they believe. I applaud the school for the work they have done. Westmont is a Christian School. And one of the best. Especially for not force feeding their students what they should believe in.
I wonder just how much students are taught about abortion at institutions such as Westmont. How many students have seen pictures of embryos at 7 or 8 weeks, for instance? My sense is it would be easy to go through four years at Westmont and be taught very little from a pro-life perspective, however much other more fashionable issues are raised.
I think graphic images certainly have their place. But I think that so does obedience to legitimate authority, until such becomes impossible or impractical.
Of course in any theatre of battle, there needs to be some sort of strategy, but the Seth is fighting the school’s complacency ‘strategy’ -ie: the school is focused on silencing dialog.
Those pictures will get people talking, and thinking. It will get women to think about their great creative reproductive power, even if they don’t express it to others, they WILL think of those images in regards unborn children that might come into their lives. Westmont should be shoing them the photos-but since they are not educating their students, the students are educating themselves.
We go to college to learn.
Why u hatin’??
The signs don’t say: ‘don’t have an abortion,’ limit ‘choice.’ …or do they?
AHEM.
Look, they already they are out from behind their desks, even if it is to contain Seth, they are ‘standing up.’ Americans accept a cultural practice that involves a blood sacrifice on the behalf of children, to maintain that comfortable complacency. Good Christians are staying silent.
Maybe they will learn to stand up for life, instead of against it.
I hope they recieve the grace to realize, like true-believers Saul and Norma McCorvey, that Christ is the thing to defend, not to persecute, and then in turn, defend it with a the passion of a Christian.
If you want more honest schooling: goto: http://youtu.be/tvdVFuYP1gw
joan,
Maybe “pro-lifers” should all chip in and fund an abortion museum?
We’re looking forward to the day when such pictures are old and can only be seen in a museum.
No doubt there will be a museum on the washington mall, and it will be in history books as well. Sadly, it will probably take a massive loss of life on a never before seen scale for people to “get it.” Something along the lines of a nuclear haulocost, that would turn people’s hearts.