Football players should plan spouse pregnancies around season?
Charles Tillman, a star cornerback for the Chicago Bears, said in an interview the other day that it was possible he would miss Sunday’s big game with the Houston Texans if his pregnant wife went into labor….
That should have been that. But it’s never that, because the topic is relatable (the birth of a child) and the universe has gone utterly bonkers about football. There were the usual croaky claims that Tillman needed prioritize football, since football pays the bills, the Houston game is a big game, and the regular season is only 16 commitments a year. A football reporter for NBC Sports — the network that will host Sunday night’s Bears versus Texans contest — went to far as to suggest that NFL players attempt to avoid such conflicts by planning pregnancies that result in off-season childbirths.
So let’s fly the spaceship down to planet Earth and get our priorities correct. There’s supposed to be a corny part here where I say that no person who’s lucky enough to be a parent will look back at his or her life and remember a November NFL game, but the truth is, not many people sit back on a Tuesday and remember a November NFL game. Seriously: Do you remember who the Bears beat last Sunday? (Answer: The Poughkeepsie Thunderducks. No: the Titans.)…
It is the cliché of clichés, but there are bigger things than football. Charles Tillman should do whatever works for his family. Play or don’t play, it’s his call. Good for his family. Good for the Bears. This isn’t really a debate.
~ Sports writer Jason Gay, Wall Street Journal, November 8
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Abso-frickin’-lutely. I can’t believe this is even up for discussion.
As a Lions and Calvin Johnson fan on the sports field I loathe the Bears and Tillman, but many kudos to Tillman for realizing the correct priorities in life, I don’t know much about him personally but that says to me he is a good man.
A stupid football game is more important than the birth of his child and being there for his wife?!? This is why I have no tolerance for sports fans. They are nuts and have absolutely no sense of what really matters.
Well, we all instinctively know that playing sports and entertaining people is WAY more important than welcoming your own child into the world. Right?
Seriously, people need their heads examined.
A reporter on WBBM radio actually said “it will be up to Tillman’s wife and baby whether he plays on Sunday.”
Because he wouldn’t just decide on his own to stay with his wife and new baby?
A friend’s husband told her that if the baby arrived the opening weekend of deer season, he wouldn’t be showing up to the hospital. She told him it was over if he didn’t show.
Their little girl showed up opening weekend and her sister drove her and picked her up. He was true to his word and didn’t go to the hospital but was shocked when she held true to hers and filed for divorce. He told everyone it was the hormones that caused her to go off the deep-end and divorce him.
A reporter on WBBM radio actually said “it will be up to Tillman’s wife and baby whether he plays on Sunday.”
Because he wouldn’t just decide on his own to stay with his wife and new baby?
Right, because I think the underlying assumption is that men couldn’t possibly value fatherhood and marriage as much as they do their careers (and/or sports).
@Kel, and it feels better for football fans to blame the wife and baby if the Bears lost than it does for them to think that Tillman might care more about his family than their precious team.
Praxedes, wow. I must say, it sounds like your friend didn’t lose much!
@Kelsey
Sounds like they were both immature brats to me, using the baby as a bargaining chip.
U-104 how is it immature and bratty to expect your husband to live up to his responsibilities? I think she is better off.
@Jack
Do everything i want or you’ll never see your kid.
How is she not immature?
What if a husband told his wife if you don’t go to the kid’s game i’m divorcing you?
Lol, she didn’t say anything about keeping him from his kid. She was well within her rights to divorce him.
U-104, you are missing the point.
It’s do this one very incredible most important event of our whole lives
…or I can conclude you really aren’t that interested. And so why would I want to be married to you?
@Courtnay
Exactly, do what i say or else.
if the sexes were reversed you would call it abuse.
Part of the reason I left my wife is because she couldn’t care less about mothering, for the most part, U-104. If someone doesn’t want to be interested in the children you create together then you aren’t going to be in a happy marriage for long. If they would rather hunt (or go out to the bar like my ex) than spend any time on important things with the kids, why stay?
@Jack
Were was it shown that he was not interested in being a father? the kid is gonna be there for 18 years AT LEAST! or she would have been if the other brat didn’t call my way or the highway.
Oh jeez. So your girl’s gonna go through excruciating labor and delivery to bear you a kid and you’d rather be hunting… yeah, I consider that a pretty clear sign he wasn’t interested in being a good father. I wouldn’t have missed my kids’ births for anything.
I totally have figured out why so many women think men suck lol. “Kid’s gonna be there for eighteen years! Might as well skip the birth, the womenz can handle that crap!”
Jack are you deliberately ignoring half of my comment or are you just so busy putting women on a pedestal that you can’t take the time to read?
What do you think I’m ignoring? I don’t think it’s “bratty” to expect the person who created the kid with you to be there for the birth. It’s a pretty clear sign that they are irredeemably selfish if they don’t. It’s just not what decent men do. Are you too busy putting men on a pedestal to read that?
Go read Prax’s thing again u-104. The guy would rather be in the woods than at his child’s birth. That’s a huge, flashing, neon sign that he care more about himself than the wife or kid. He’s the real jerk in that relationship. And no, if the sexes were reversed, I wouldn’t call it abuse. I’d say good riddance! If my husband didn’t attend the birth of OUR child, I could very well conclude that he took no interest in our marriage or the life that marriage made. That’s just horrible.
Also, newsflash: The deer will be there for the next 18 years too. You witness birth only once. You can slay deer any time, anywhere.
Stop putting women on a pedestal LibertyBelle. ;)
Jack at least it explains why so many women are single. Good men can be hard to find…. lol
I was lucky enough to find a guy who I know without a shadow of a doubt would drop everything to be their for the birth of our baby, and even lesser things, too. And no, U-104, he doesn’t put me on a pedestal. It’s called mutual respect and marriage and gee, I don’t know. Love?
“Sounds like they were both immature brats to me”
“the other brat”
HOW MANY QUOTES AM I HOLDING UP!
CAN YOU SEE THEM?
DO YOU NEED TO SOUND THEM OUT?
Please tell me you aren’t married and don’t have kids U-104. If you really think that deciding hunting is more important than your child’s birth is equal to leaving someone for deliberately skipping the child’s birth, then I feel kinda bad for your wife if you have one.
Let me put it this way U-104. When our oldest was three he got really sick. He has pretty severe asthma anyway, so bad chest colds can put him in the hospital. My ex decided that she would rather take our only car and get drunk at a friend’s house than stay around to see if the kid needed to go to the hospital (which he did end up having to go, I had to have a neighbor drive us). I threatened to leave if she did that again. We were both immature brats or was one parent obviously pretty darn selfish and thinking of her own personal crap over her children?
U, if she were just giving him random mandates, then fine, I’d agree. I’m not going to go give my husband unreasonable mandates.
But it’s reasonable to mandate that when your spouse is threatening to not be there for the birth of your child.
Okay, you’re right. It’s unreasonable that she mandate that because she shouldn’t have to. What kind of dolt doesn’t even want to be there to witness his baby coming into the world? Isn’t that some kind of he-man, chest bumping thing anyway? Like, “Hrr. Me made baby.” This dude isn’t even a good Neanderthal.
Gee, Jack, you seem kinda bratty to me. Demanding your only car be left at home to possibly save the life of your kid. How could you? ;)
“I don’t know. Love?”
You mean the kind of love that says even if you’re not perfect i’ll stay with you because i made a vow in front of witness that said till death do us part and signed my name on a legal document? nah not that kind of love that’s unreasonable lol.
I know LibertyBelle, how could I? I mean, people aren’t perfect after all! :)
I have to admit, my dh did drop me off at the hospital when I was in early labor with son #2 so he could go back and have basketball practice with his team. But he DID come back later, and was there in plenty of time to see Blaise Benjamin enter the world, almost 13 years ago!!
Exactly, U. that kind of love that says, “I’ll put my desire to hunt during ONE FRIGGIN DAY aside to be with you during this incredibly painful, excruciating, beautiful experience of bringing OUR baby into the world.” Yes, that love that the jerk dude did not display.
How are you not getting this? I agree that you put up with a lot and shouldn’t divorce over petty things, but heck, he wasn’t exactly stuck somewhere, he didn’t miss a plane, he *chose* not to be there. That’s despicable.
BTW–
U-104, PLEASE put down the pipe.
U-104, there’s this site called “Men Go Their Own Way” I think will fit you pretty well lolol.
@ jackbelle
you do realize that I %&$#?@! AGREE WITH YOU RIGHT? or were you to busy defending the poor woman’s honor to notice that i said he was a brat too?
LOL Jackbelle that’s funny. He Jack, didn’t know we were the same person! Are you the evil twin, or am I? ;)
Yeah but you’re calling her a brat, and I just don’t see how that’s a bratty thing to do. If he chose not to be there for his baby’s birth, there were probably more problems.
Yes. Okay. We totally agree. Deliberately skipping your kid’s birth is totally the same thing as not wanting to stay in a marriage to someone who cares so little about you that shooting Bambi is more important than watching his kid coming into the world. Glad we cleared this up.
Lol LibertyBelle it’s pretty obviously me that’s the evil one haha.
I don’t know…. I’m nice online but I can be pretty darn devious… Haha
@LibertyBelle
So why didn’t she try counseling? you know like a mature person would do? find out what was wrong and try to fix it? instead of having a tantrum and storming out like an immature brat.
U probably because he’d go hunting instead of counseling…..
The kid came into the world 9 months before birth, you know that whole conception and life thing, and i’m pretty darn sure they were both present.
Nah, LibertyBelle, he’d probably just accuse her of being on her period or something every time she brought up an issue in counseling. Because “hormonal” is the only thing he could come up with for why she would dump him.
“The kid came into the world 9 months before birth, you know that whole conception and life thing, and i’m pretty darn sure they were both present”
Yes. Because screwing was totally his only responsibility there. Yes indeed.
@LibertyBelle
Oh he told you that? because otherwise you’re just making crap up.
@Jack
I’m not defending either of them, you are.
lol so true Jack. So true.
And U, yeah, but birth is also pretty momentous. That’s like missing your wedding day or something. I mean, it’s ONE FRIGGING DAY that he’s missing of a WHOLE HUNTING SEASON. The whole, dang, season. I just … that logic suggests he’s not the type to care about counseling.
Nope, just sensing a pattern here, U.
Okay, think of it this way, it’s like a wife abandoning her husband for shopping while he goes through a REALLY really painful surgery. Only worse.
I just suppose you don’t care about birth or something?
Also, take it from a woman, making the baby’s the fun part. :) Then, pregnancy can be painful. And then you get to birthing the baby… and Lord have mercy. let me tell you, it’s no cake walk. If nothing else, you shouldn’t abandon your spouse who’s going through that kind of pain.
My ex refused to go through counseling when I begged him to because he said, “WHY? So THEY can tell you how RIGHT YOU ARE, and how EVIL I AM?!” because I was tired of being raped and wanted someone to help show him how much he was hurting me by doing things like that. I still loved him and wanted to save our marriage. He was more concerned about someone telling him something he was doing was wrong. Granted, I still stayed with him for another few years after that, but once he got to the throwing me down on the ground and strangling me part, I was done with that. How selfish and childish of me.
gosh, x. I didn’t know you were such a brat!! How could you? Don’t you know people aren’t perfect?!:)
Yeah, honestly, sometimes people miss their child’s birth, because they’re out of town or whatever, but if they PLAN TO, for something that they could DO ANY RANDOM TIME, then that’s a major red flag, and probably not the first. It’s like missing your wedding. “What??? We’ll be married for the rest of our lives, can’t you just take care of this whole thing and I’ll catch you later? geez!”
lol it’s like my dad’s reasoning. To this day, after more than a year of painstaking divorce proceedings, he maintains that my mom “left him.” Because he didn’t “leave her.” He just said that she would have to tolerate him spending four nights a week with his girlfriend. My mom came up with a whole host of other options – that he stop seeing his girlfriend, that he take some time to decide what to do while they went to couples counseling, etc – and basically made it very clear that pretty much the only thing in the world she would NOT do to keep him would be to passively tolerate him sleeping with another woman like some creepy sister-wives thing. He chose the ONE THING in the world that would make my mom leave him and so she left him. UGH WHAT A BRAT with NO RESPECT AT ALL FOR THE INSTITUTION OF MARRIAGE.
I saw this post and wondered why it had so many comments on it. Then I looked at the comments and was reminded that on the internet, a fight can start over literally anything.
X and Alex, you just sound, like, so judgmental.
So do you, JDC.
Quit judging me for being judgmental, Courtnay! >:(
“So do you, JDC.”
I knew I should have stayed out of this one.
JDC, it is bratty to walk away from a conversation you have willingly entered into just because it’s not what you signed on for.
X you DAMN WELL better not be comparing rape to a simple disagreement or saying that i am.
Did every woman in the would take what i said personally? COOL i didn’t realize i had that much power.
U, I most certainly did not take your comment personally. Mostly because I am on the pedestal and you are not.
I’m not a woman and I took it personally lol.
Um, since when is intentionally missing your baby’s birth a simple disagreement?
Cause last I checked, my husband forgetting that I asked him to make dinner is a simple disagreement. Me not wanting to take out the trash when my husband asks is a simple disagreement. Saying, “Ya know babe, thanks for inviting to the birth of our baby, but I’m going hunting instead. Deers need killin.”
Jack in another flame war? How DOES he do it? ;)
Family legend has it one of my sisters was born on New Year’s Eve while my dad was deer hunting with my uncle. NOT on purpose timing-wise, I think. Oh well, five out of six ain’t bad, is it? ;)
@Jack
“I’m not a woman and I took it personally lol.”
Wow…. you think you’ll recover?
Lol Hans, I just find things to fight about I guess. Like people telling me I shouldn’t vote and U-104 saying that deliberately missing your baby’s birth is a simple disagreement lol.
InB4 U-104 calls me a mangina or whatever haha.
@belle
“Um, since when is intentionally missing your baby’s birth a simple disagreement?”
In a world where there are people making decisions that could mean the difference between life and death, yes it is a simple disagreement
InB4 jack tells me he hopes i don’t have kids….. oh wait.
If you wanna know, U-104, I took it personally because men like you, who don’t seem to see that missing your kid being born is a big deal make us all look like childish jerks, honestly.
“JDC, it is bratty to walk away from a conversation you have willingly entered into just because it’s not what you signed on for.”
Alexandra, it’s also bratty to expect to to follow any rules of etiquette what so ever. Also, you’re being judgmental which is bad and stuff.
JDC it’s bratty to call people bratty for calling other people bratty.
It seems I got that legend a little wrong. My dad was helping my uncle gut a deer when he got the phone call, and was back in time. Otherwise, I don’t think my two brothers would be here, and there might have been another gutting. ;)
Annnnnd bringing it full circle, Jack, your point is good. It’s attitudes like U-104’s that don’t allow football players to get off work for his baby’s birth, because other men scoff and say “it’s a simple disagreement” and their wives are brats for wanting them there. What happened to admiring family men?
And JDC give me a break. Yes there are people making hard decisions in the world, but this dude has a choice. And he chose like a selfish pig. So that’s on him.
Dude Hans, it was just his kid being born. He should have stayed with his way more important hunting stuff. Obv.
“Sounds like they were both immature brats to me”
“the other brat”
“you do realize that I %&$#?@! AGREE WITH YOU RIGHT?”
==================================================
“men like you, who don’t seem to see that missing your kid being born”
Jack how old are you?
U, maybe lots of us have experience with a certain breed of jerk who tries to frame even the most stunning and egregious actions – ie, putting a few hours (a few MORE hours, even) of sitting in the woods with a gun and some friends over the first view, the first screams, the first touches, of your child (to say nothing of the emotional and physical needs of your WIFE, who is left alone to go through something painful and scary and amazing and miraculous) – as a mere logical disagreement between rational people.
“I’m not abusive! We just disagree on whether I should or should not hit you!” Lots of people have heard that before, in one form or another.
Belle why are you lying about me?
I’m 293… months.
So are some of my shirts, Jack. ;)
I’m lying about you? How, pray tell?
@jack
and you still can’t read huh?
Annnnnd bringing it full circle, Jack, your point is good. It’s attitudes like U-104?s that don’t allow football players to get off work for his baby’s birth, because other men scoff and say “it’s a simple disagreement” and their wives are brats for wanting them there. What happened to admiring family men?
YES exactly, LibertyBelle. Acting like choosing a random recreational activity over the birth of your child is equivalent to missing a game, or any minor disagreement, just confirms that the expectations for men, and fathers, are heartbreakingly low. And then in turns provides ammunition to attack and penalize the men who exceed those expectations.
If she had just been thoughtful and had an abortion, he wouldn’t have to miss either a birth or the hunting. See, everyone’s happy.
Sorry JDC I meant U…. Mb!
@belle
“It’s attitudes like U-104?s” you
“Sounds like they were both immature brats to me” me
try that.
That’s the WHOLE POINT U!! The fact that you put her being upset with him deliberately missing his kid’s birth on the same level as him deliberately missing the birth shows that your attitude is off. And Alexandra’s right, expectations for fathers are ridiculously low, which is probably why I get congratulated for “babysitting” my own kids when I have full custody. It’s ridiculous, men should be held to the same standard as women, it shouldn’t be seen as a simple disagreement to skip your kid’s birth, it should be unthinkable.
You realize you’re berating jack for the same issues you’re having, right?
It’s attitudes like yours “aying that a man missing his baby’s birth intentionally is nothing more than a simple disagreement. Does that clear it up?
Anyway, at worst it’s a miscommunication on my part, not a lie.
@jack
“men should be held to the same standard as women”
The feminists are gonna lynch you if you keep talking like that.
Sigh.
@belle
“same issues you’re having, right?”
What issues doctor?
“It’s attitudes like yours “aying that a man missing his baby’s birth intentionally is nothing more than a simple disagreement. Does that clear it up?”
I’m sorry i didn’t didn’t know that missing a baby’s birth was on the same level as “i’m detecting russian ICBMs launching, is it real or a bug” YES IT IS A SIMPLE DISAGREEMENT.
Sigh.
Okay, U. Have a good life.
You can have your simple disagreements.
I’m off to enjoy my husband and our mutually respectful, self-sacrificial marriage.
Hey, U, if some guy missed his child’s birth because he was an integral part of stopping a nuclear attack, I don’t think anyone would have a problem.
I don’t know why you keep bringing up random unrelated “life and death” matters that have nothing to do with the topic. It’s not like the possibility of a nuclear attack suddenly means that all other conflicts are null and void. That is just a silencing tactic, the “There are bigger problems” crap. There are always bigger problems. There are bigger problems in the world than a guy being a jerk, but in the functional microcosm of that family, there are actually only a few problems bigger than a father caring so little about his wife and child that he willingly leaves them to go through one of the biggest experiences of both of their lives without his support, in favor of hanging out with his friends. We do not need to tolerate bad behavior in the everyday just because someone somewhere has a nuclear weapon, and the badness of nuclear threat does not erase the badness of paternal neglect.
While getting packed to move, my friend came across photos of her husband’s opening weekend. A few nice photos of some deer. More than a few more nice shots of one of the local bar’s sexy skimpily-clad “Budweiser girls” posed in the bed of her husband’s pick-up (that was parked in their driveway).
Let me know if you want to know what kind of father this fellow made after the divorce, U-104. His little girl is all grown up and he died when she was a teen. I’ve got plenty of stories.
@A
“I don’t know why you keep bringing up random unrelated “life and death” matters”
Because you people keep comparing missing birth to rape abuse and adultery, life and death matters kettle.
Praxedes
Oh speak of the devil
“Because you people keep comparing missing birth to rape abuse and adultery, life and death matters kettle.”
I consider adultery similar to deliberately missing your kid’s birth for something unimportant. Both show a complete lack of respect for your spouse and kids.
That comparison is about all the severe and egregious things that get passed off as “disagreements,” the aggrieved spouse getting told that they are abandoning their marriage. My dad laid out his plan to continue cheating on my mom and she gave him fair warning that if he did, she’d file for divorce. He still tells me that SHE abandoned HIM. Over a dispute. That she just couldn’t stop thinking of anyone but herself.
What is your comparison about?
It’s cool to know i can offend an entire blog by saying both sides were wrong, imagine if i had said the guy was right LOL.
This couple’s “simple disagreement” spoke volumes about the husband’s character and the wife made the right decision. You’re saying that a woman is an immature brat for expecting her husband to give up hunting for one day to be with her when their child is born speaks volumes about your character.
What, no request U-104, to hear more stories about how these two ended up? Those darn women and their hormones. LOL
@Prax
“For I hate divorce!” says the LORD, the God of Israel”
Would God really want someone to stay with someone who treated them like garbage?
@Jack
Ask Prax, or is she one of those christians who says only some of the Bible is true?
Just gotta jump into the fray and say, U-104, I think I understand where you were coming from originally.
Praxedes says: A friend’s husband told her that if the baby arrived the opening weekend of deer season, he wouldn’t be showing up to the hospital. She told him it was over if he didn’t show.
U-104 says: Sounds like they were both immature brats to me, using the baby as a bargaining chip.
I too was shocked that a husband would prioritize hunting over his child’s birth and that a wife would issue such an ultimatum based on that fact alone. It now seems that there was much more wrong with the marriage, but the idea of this one act of extreme insensitivity and messed up priorities resulting in the end of a marriage was quite dismaying. Sorry folks, but based on the info that was given originally, I didn’t think U’s comment was out of line.
Thank you Lrning.
I’m with Praxedes on this one. Any man who would rather do something like deer hunting than be at his child’s birth displays some serious flaws.
I’ll bet the only reason his wife told him if he went deer hunting it was all over is because he already had a track record of similar behavior.
There was only one immature brat here and it sure wasn’t the woman.
This woman was devastated that he would choose hunting over her and their child. She didn’t really think he was serious. I don’t believe she was using the baby as a bargaining chip at all but stated to him that she could not stay married to a man who would chose one day of hunting over the birth of their child. How do you think she should have reacted when he told her not to expect him to be around if the baby came opening weekend? She did request they go to counseling but he refused.
She called me when she found the photos. It is devastating to see a young mother crying her eyes out. I am seriously offended that she has been called an immature brat here. The writing was on the wall and I believe she made the right choice.
My friend went on to have her first marriage annulled and has been remarried for years to a wonderful man who helped her raise her little girl. She was there for me when I was leaving my abusive husband. Her ex-husband went on to abuse his younger live-in girlfriend and become addicted to cocaine and alcohol. He died before he was fifty.
The writing was on the wall and I believe she made the right choice.
You may be right. But all U had to go on was your tit-for-tat sounding original comment. Sorry, but I don’t think failure to be at a birth alone is grounds for throwing in the towel on a marriage. Especially when we consider what Jesus had to say about marriage, which is where I believe U was coming from since he quoted Scripture about it. It’s not an indictment of your friend, if anything it’s an indictment of how you presented her case here originally.
@Prax
“I am seriously offended that she has been called an immature brat here.”
You know what offends me? offended people.
“I believe she made the right choice”
Oh so you’re right and God’s wrong, do you want to call him and tell him or should i?
I don’t believe in god, so I don’t really give a flip about what he says about marriage.
Not showing up for a literally life-threatening (albeit mildly) situation which could possibly affect your wife and/or child, let alone just being there for your child’s first moments, let alone just being there for your wife as she goes through something painful and scary…I know my ex couldn’t have possibly been there for the birth of our second child, but if he had said that he wouldn’t be there and didn’t want to, it would’ve been over A LONG TIME before it was. He didn’t even WANT me to have our first child-he wanted her aborted!-but he was there for her birth and showed care for me.
How do you think she should have reacted when he told her not to expect him to be around if the baby came opening weekend?
Do you think God ever believes divorce is okay?
In what way or under whose auspices was her marriage annulled Praxedes?
U-104, You should think about getting your hormone levels checked. You’re getting a bit testy with me. LOL
Reality, her marriage was annulled by the Catholic Church.
Lol Praxedes.
Then doesn’t that mean that god thought she made the right choice too?
From what I understand about Catholic annulments, Reality, a decision is made by Spirit-led humans on whether or not one or both spouses is too much of an immature brat to remain married. (:
My friend went on to remarry in the Catholic Church so I’m guessing they believed she deserved a second chance to get it right. So far so good.
@Prax
Why didn’t you tell the full story in the first place?
ribbit ribbit ribbit ?
U-104,
I can’t think of anything to add, except maybe:
“You sunk my battleship!”
Why didn’t you tell the full story in the first place?
If I did this, how would I ever get to know you better. ;)
Someone might need some ice. :)
@Prax
Hi i’m Scott I enjoy old movies, walks on the beach, and kicking the occasional puppy, how are you miss….?
I agree with the guy that it must have been her hormones. Being a partner is a life-long journey. Any woman who would divorce her husband just for not being there for delivery is nuts and immature imo.
Oh no.
Don’t Jack, don’t!
I learned not to accuse women of being hormonal when they have emotions when I was like 12. Sheesh.
Must… resist… arguing… more
Strength Jack, strength!
Jack, I have seen my wife’s hormones after child birth. I am not accusing it is science.
What does it take to get an annulment in the Catholic Church…MONEY.
What does it take to get remarried in the catholic church… MONEY.
IMO, if you have to give someone an ultimatum, your relationship was dead along time ago. I’m pretty sure if he was a jerk at the kid’s birth, he was a jerk before she got pregnant.
Not that the guy couldn’t be an insensitive jerk. I would just need more info. For better or for worse. What God has brought together. I hate divorce unless there is more to it than missing the delivery. I don’t think I could ever divorce my wife. I could see seperating if she was hurting me or the kids. But I don’t think I could ever divorce her.
Idk truthseeker, my ex hit me in the head with my guitar a couple weeks after she had our first but it was more because I was being a total idiot than hormones lol. And still, I’m pretty sure that she would have left me if I had decided to do something besides attend the birth of our kid, and she would have had been well within her rights because there would have been something really wrong with me to do that.
But I shouldn’t argue this again lol. Read the whole thread for all the arguments. Lather rinse and repeat.
Must be a full moon.
Amazon, not true, it does not take money to get married or to have an annulment in the Catholic Church. Many Churches simply ask for a donation, but if the couple truly can’t afford it the Church does not make it mandatory.
For better or for worse.
Truth, Maybe you will answer these questions:
How do you think she should have reacted when he told her not to expect him to be around if the baby came opening weekend?
Do you think God ever believes divorce is okay?
Thanks, Tyler. My first abusive marriage was annulled and I was not made to pay for it. I also was not required to pay to remarry in the Catholic Church although we chose to make a donation.
Hang tough, Jack. We know that abuse is not just leaving bruises.
Praxedes says: Do you think God ever believes divorce is okay?
You didn’t ask me, but I’d like to answer this question. No, God doesn’t believe divorce is okay. “What therefore God has joined together, let no man put asunder.” But I’m defining divorce as the Catholic Church defines it, which is “The claim that the indissoluble marriage bond validly entered into between a man and a woman is broken. A civil dissolution of the marriage contract (divorce) does not free persons from a valid marriage before God.” Paragraphs 2382 – 2386 in the Catechism explain in much more detail.
As you are surely aware, but others might not be, the annulment process is where the Church looks at the circumstances/intentions/situation surrounding the wedding to determine if the marriage was, in fact, valid. When it is found to not be valid, an annulment is granted. In that case, the couple was not joined by God, so the union is breakable.
Hi all, Just to clarify (I stepped away to spend time with my other and arguably better half… you know, that marriage thing), I am against divorce in most cases. I don’t think you should just divorce for reasons like “Oh man, we’re just not ‘into’ each other any more.”
HOWEVER, the Bible does give Christians an out, and that is if the spouse commits adultery. As Jack said, I think intentionally missing the birth of your baby to hang out with skimpily clad Budweiser girls (pretty sure there was some lust going on, which Jesus classified as adultery) is tantamount to that. At a minimum, this is clearly a pattern in his life.
I personally also think that abuse could be a grounds for divorce. And I think what this guy did is tantamount to abuse.
So, for my fellow Christians, no, I’m not defending divorce on a whim, but I think given the circumstances, the woman was probably justified and it’s not a whim.
Thanks, y’all. :)
How do you think she should have reacted when he told her not to expect him to be around if the baby came opening weekend?
I understand her “reaction” being one of anger but marriage is a lifetime commitment and cooler heads should prevail. Maybe she could have asked for something else dear to her in exchange.
God does not approve of divorce. Part of the marriage ‘vow’ is a vow for God to enter the union and bless it. At least in my instance, divorcing my wife would be breaking a vow I made to God when I asked him to enter into our union.
Well I was cool with breaking my vow, the marriage was miserable. I just fail to see how a loving God could want his children in a toxic marriage. And apparently, the Catholic church at least agrees that sometimes marriages should be set aside.
Jack, I would never counsel anybody to stay in an abusive situation. I am just saying that for me personally; because I went into my marriage in more than just a civil manner; I would not divorce. It could seem unfair but it would be the hand I was dealt and I would play it the best I could without breaking my vow to God.
That’s why a lot of people enter into ‘marriages’ and leave the vow part out of it. In my entire life I have never sworn to God on anything other than my marriage vow.
“Above all, my brothers, do not swear–not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. Let your “Yes” be yes, and your “No,” no, or you will be condemned.” James 5:12
I’m so condemned then, lol. I did take my vows 100% seriously, truthseeker. I’m sure the lady Prax is talking about did too. But sometimes, it’s literally down to your sanity or your marriage. There are some things that can’t be fixed. I really don’t understand why a marriage would be more important than mental health or your kids being safe and not learning really terrible patterns from you.
“I really don’t understand why a marriage would be more important than mental health or your kids being safe and not learning really terrible patterns from you. ”
It’s not Jack. Notice I said in my post that I would never counsel anybody to stay in an abusive situation. Let me ask you a more personal Jack and you don’t have to answer it. Did you yourself speak to God directly about your marriage and tell God you would never leave your spouse? If you did not, then you may have taken your vows 100% seriously but the vows themselves may not have been as serious. Get what I am saying?
Sure, I get that you think that. I just don’t think that mine were less serious than yours just because I didn’t vow them to God. :) My wife did vow hers to God but she apparently didn’t take them nearly as seriously as I did, so there is that though.
If you cannot understand what a vow to God means to me then you would not be able to understand why a vow to God is more serious then any other vow which means you would not be able to understand why I would never divorce. I can’t explain any clearer then I did above but suffice it to say that it is serious enough that I would not divorce.
I would like to understand but I guess I don’t.
Jack, I’ll pray on it and try to express it again in another way later.
Nah, it’s okay truth. I still won’t get it.
Maybe she could have asked for something else dear to her in exchange.
She did. She asked a judge and the Catholic Church for her freedom from a narcissistic, abusive husband and she got it. She did not and does not take her marriage vows lightly.
I put a restraining order on my first husband. His lawyer met me at court and told me if I didn’t drop the restraining order my husband was going to file for divorce. I stuck out my hand for the papers. My husband whispered to his lawyer, “But I told you, I never wanted a divorce.” His lawyer hushed him and took me in a room to “talk some sense into me.”
My ex told me after the divorce, “You know, I would have never divorced you.” And I knew that. Why would he? He’s not the one that was being abused, cheated on and neglected. My friend’s husband would have never divorced her either. He just would have continued to take her for granted and treat their family like garbage.
Tomorrow is opening deer season in Wisconsin. If you wife goes into labor, skip hunting and be with her and your new baby. And back away from the Bud girls.
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. Ephesians 5:25
Praxedes some people say that abuse isn’t a valid reason for divorce biblically and some people say it is. What is the Catholic church’s ideas on that?
Hi Jack,
From what I found here, the Catholic church expects no person to stay in an abusive marriage. I believe that leaving your laboring wife alone to fend for herself so that you can go out hunting rises to the level of emotional abuse. Her sister lived several hours away but came and got her when her husband refused. I guess she could have called a friend, neighbor or a co-worker:
http://www.dnu.org/service/marriagefamily-domesticviolence.pdf
Catholic teaching regarding divorce, from the Catechism:
2382 The Lord Jesus insisted on the original intention of the Creator who willed that marriage be indissoluble. He abrogates the accommodations that had slipped into the old Law.
Between the baptized, “a ratified and consummated marriage cannot be dissolved by any human power or for any reason other than death.”
2383 The separation of spouses while maintaining the marriage bond can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law.
If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense.
2384 Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law. It claims to break the contract, to which the spouses freely consented, to live with each other till death. Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation, of which sacramental marriage is the sign. Contracting a new union, even if it is recognized by civil law, adds to the gravity of the rupture: the remarried spouse is then in a situation of public and permanent adultery:
2385 Divorce is immoral also because it introduces disorder into the family and into society. This disorder brings grave harm to the deserted spouse, to children traumatized by the separation of their parents and often torn between them, and because of its contagious effect which makes it truly a plague on society.
2386 It can happen that one of the spouses is the innocent victim of a divorce decreed by civil law; this spouse therefore has not contravened the moral law. There is a considerable difference between a spouse who has sincerely tried to be faithful to the sacrament of marriage and is unjustly abandoned, and one who through his own grave fault destroys a canonically valid marriage.
and
1649 Yet there are some situations in which living together becomes practically impossible for a variety of reasons. In such cases the Church permits the physical separation of the couple and their living apart. The spouses do not cease to be husband and wife before God and so are not free to contract a new union. In this difficult situation, the best solution would be, if possible, reconciliation. The Christian community is called to help these persons live out their situation in a Christian manner and in fidelity to their marriage bond which remains indissoluble.
“1649 Yet there are some situations in which living together becomes practically impossible for a variety of reasons. In such cases the Church permits the physical separation of the couple and their living apart. The spouses do not cease to be husband and wife before God and so are not free to contract a new union. In this difficult situation, the best solution would be, if possible, reconciliation. The Christian community is called to help these persons live out their situation in a Christian manner and in fidelity to their marriage bond which remains indissoluble.”
So I am 24, and the only way I could possibly not be sinning is to never have a girlfriend or marry ever again? Damn this is a harsh religion.
I like your link though Prax. I am glad that the Church has help for women in terrible situations.
“It can happen that one of the spouses is the innocent victim of a divorce decreed by civil law; this spouse therefore has not contravened the moral law. There is a considerable difference between a spouse who has sincerely tried to be faithful to the sacrament of marriage and is unjustly abandoned, and one who through his own grave fault destroys a canonically valid marriage.”
Can someone explain what this means? If your husband or wife seeks a divorce that you don’t want then the spouse that didn’t want the divorce isn’t sinning? Is the abandoned spouse allowed to remarry? And what if you file for divorce against your husband or wife who is physically abusive and cheats and leaves you with the kids for days and such? Is that still your sin because you sought the divorce? You can never remarry again because you made a bad choice of spouses when you were freaking 19? That’s the God of love’s idea?
It just seems monumentally unfair.
So I am 24, and the only way I could possibly not be sinning is to never have a girlfriend or marry ever again?
Jack, since you were never married in the Catholic Church, these situations don’t apply to you. If you were Catholic and understood and believed in what the Church teaches, you would be expected to have your marriage annulled before you went on to remarry in the Church or otherwise yes, you would be sinning.
My ex remarried six months and one day after our divorce but could not marry in the Catholic Church because his marriage to me was not annulled. He never responded to papers he was sent by the Church when I started the annulment process a few years later. He is now going through another divorce and if he ever wants to get married in the Catholic Church again, he’ll need to go through the process of showing he is serious about being married as a Catholic.
Although my ex was not a good husband or father, the annulment process taught me the part I played and the areas that I needed to work on before I could be ready to make a marriage work.
Damn this is a harsh religion.
LOL. There is true freedom to be found in the Catholic faith. If someone had told me this when I was 24, I would have thought they were nuts — and I was raised Catholic. I had to graduate from the School of Hard Knocks before I realized what the Church taught me was right all along. I think you have a Masters Degree from this same school.
Thank you for explaining that for me Prax. That makes a lot more sense.
I just went back into the link I posted above to check out the other links they provided (I should have done this from the beginning. My bad.)
The site I show above was obviously put together using information from USCCB but then whoever put it together added links of their own. Some of these links severely veer away from sound Catholic teaching.
Here is the full USCCB site minus the sneakily added links:
http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/marriage/domestic-violence/when-i-call-for-help.cfm