Expectant dad upset IVF got him twins
As horrible as this might sound, we found ourselves wishing these twins away.
We considered a reduction for about 30 seconds. (That’s essentially an abortion of one twin, not both.) If you thought that IVF involved playing God, a reduction felt beyond brazen — Machiavellian, even. Give us a reason, we thought, as we had the twins tested for genetic anomalies. None came….
With four months left to go, I’m not sure what stage we’re in at the moment — but it’s not acceptance. My wife and I even both privately admitted that we don’t like the new children, which is of course insane. Excited? We’re not there yet. Terrified? Yes, when we’re not practicing denial.
They say the most important thing is the kids’ health — but what about ours?
~ Expectant father under the pen name “Albert Garland,” just beside himself over the horrific prospect of life with twin boys, as quoted by Babble via Legal Insurrection, May 6
[Photo via Jen Prouty]
The Catholic Church’s position on IVF, as well as on artificial insemination and other forms of ART (artificial reproductive technology) is the same as that on contraception: it separates the procreative from the unitive (conjugal) act. It is a cold, hard line, and yet it is grounded in truth and logic. When egg and sperm are manipulated outside the conjugal act, it makes the unique human being nothing more than an “it” – a cheap commodity which may be manipulated, experimented upon, frozen, sold, “donated”, and/or destroyed at will. The human being at the moment of conception is seen as coming not from the glory of God, but from the achievement of doctors and scientists. Instead of coming from a loving act between a married couple, the child is denied his/her proper place of love. This is the ideal situation – that a child would be granted both a mother and a father who would protect the child in the womb. Unfortunately, medical technology has been used to separate this process so that the mother and father are not, in fact co-creators in Christ, but are actively going against the will of God. It comes as no surprise then, that emotional detachment and a sense of hatred toward the “invader” in the womb would occur among the parents. Vice begets vice. It is easier to rationalize one sin when one commits another. These parents, from the moment of PGN (doctors discarding “defective embryos”) have already killed off some of the siblings of these twins. Then, they contemplated killing the twins for having genetic defects when they were 10-12 weeks gestation. Just look at a 3D ultrasound of a perfectly formed 10 week old baby in utero, and you will see how sick this is. The babies are not safe yet, though. They still have the potential to be killed, as we do not know if there will be any as of yet undetected abnormality or issue with the mother’s health. Any little excuse could be used to bump them off.
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My heart goes out to them. Two new babies (while already having one child) is going to be a LOT of work. Their plan of IVF (getting a girl) did not work so they need to accept that fact. I pray either before or when these children make their entry into the world that God will give he and his wife an overwhelming love and sacrificial heart for these children who will need a loving and strong mommy and daddy all of their days.
Also, if they wanted to ensure getting a girl, they could have adopted, thereby getting the gender and quantity they preferred. Too late now.
LL
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Laura Loo says:
May 8, 2013 at 7:12 am
My heart goes out to him – two children (while already having one child) is a LOT of work.
(Denise) When people had large families, they also tended to have extended families living under one roof. Thus, there was more help with the children. This couple is going to need help to care adequately for these children.
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Denise – Agree but they’re not even at the point of accepting these new babies due to their plan of stacking up two embryos for fertilization (just in case one didn’t work they’d have a spare) and hopefully the girl they wanted. There is so much wrong with their plan – they were never going to get a 100% guarantee so if they really wanted the guarantee of just one girl, they could have adopted. LL
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Amen Laura Loo,
Praying their hearts soften toward their two little precious boys and that they soon move into the stage of ACCEPTANCE!
This story breaks my heart. Too many of my friends would LOVE to be parents.
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Reading the full article at Babble will break your heart. Sooooo much wrong with this scenario. I will pray that this couple experiences a conversion of heart and that they embrace the sacrificial nature of parenthood.
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Now children are just another commodity — bought and sold, ordered from a menu and sent back to the kitchen….
Lord, have mercy on what we have become.
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I don’t know WHY people are shocked when they have more than one baby from IVF. So many eggs get fertilized just to guarantee that they’ll have a baby. Some of them end up accepting more than one, some of them decided to abort the rest. Either way if you’re going to for IVF, multiple children and not getting the sex you wanted shouldn’t surprise you. Engineering the sex or look of a child is NOT our job, that’s better left up to God (or, if you don’t believe in God, nature/fate).
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I’m sorry that they aren’t happy with their babies, more for the children than for the parents, though.
I’m wish I could take these two little boys. My two toddler boys, and their little brother or sister, would welcome these guys wholeheartedly, and despite the shock it would cause for my husband and myself, we also would adore the little guys.
I do hope that the family finds God’s grace and accepts their little twin boys with welcoming arms.
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Does everyone admire Nadya Suleman? She refused “selective reduction.”
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Well, I wasn’t excited about having my first kid at all because I was so nervous. Hopefully they will get over their nerves and love these babies.
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Honestly, Denise, I don’t admire anyone who messes with IVF. I also don’t admire anyone who sucks on the proverbial teat of the media. So Nadya Suleman, who chose IVF for the heck of it and then sought out a reality tv show, falls safely into the “this is what’s wrong with the world” category for me.
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I’m not against IVF, only the killing of innocent Human Embryos that God DID put souls into at the moment of conception.
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Laura and Carla–you seem to have a more merciful stance towards this sad sack than I can muster today.
I am mortified by his last sentence.
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“ My wife and I even both privately admitted that we don’t like the new children, which is of course insane.”
I agree Albert. You and your wife are insane.
Del is right on. We have become so self absorbed and myopic.
“They say the most important thing is the kids’ health — but what about ours?”
Yes raising twins will be a lot of work. God designed it that way so that you will have to look to Him for grace and lean on Him for your strength. This is the reason for all of our trials in this life: so that we can grow in our relationship with and devotion to God. It’s His way of building our character.
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Make sure you read the whole article. It’s quite disgusting. The self-centered immaturity of the parents is breathtaking. They had no business doing IVF (I don’t support it in any event) and if they specifically wanted a girl they could have adopted.
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This is one of the most SELFISH, SELF-CENTERED things I’ve ever read!
I think his last sentence pretty much sums up his/his wife’s attitude. It’s all “what about ME?”
PATHETIC! (So sad for those baby boys AND their sibling(s) )
When they’re born, give them to someone who would CHERISH them ( someone like ME and my husband).
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This only makes sense if the couple didn’t understand the possible-even highly likely-consequences of IVF. I doubt this feeling of “horror” is really mutual, in which case I hope the father here pulls it together so the remainser of the pregnancy isn’t miserable for mom.
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Hi Megs,
Totally agree. With the part about the dad. Not about the “this totally makes sense.”
We get to meet our babies via ultrasound. Watch them move inside mom. See their hiccups. We bond before they are born.
Courtnay,
:)
He reminds me of my youngest!! ”THAT’S NOT THE ONE I WANTED!!!” Insert total snit fit.
This fatherboy needs to grow into a man RIGHT QUICK!!
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And when did we become so wussified???
“THIS IS TOO HARD!!! WAHHHH! WAHHHH! WAHHHH!”
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if they wanted a girl, why didn’t they just adopt a child that needed a home? I am sure there were a few girls in foster care eligible for adoption that need a home!
of course, I would never let someone who is angry over twins to adopt a baby!
This is why IVF is stupid and should be banned. If a couple is having trouble conceiving, the doctor should actually look to the REAL causes (like the doctors at Pope Paul VI center do) instead of just saying IVF.
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I doubt this feeling of “horror” is really mutual, in which case I hope the father here pulls it together so the remainser of the pregnancy isn’t miserable for mom.
How do you know? He even said:
My wife and I even both privately admitted that we don’t like the new children…
Projecting? Was an unsupportive partner part of the reason you aborted, Megan?
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Well too bad they didn’t actually abort the babies. Then half the people here would be falling all over themselves to support her and forgive her (not him, of course).
^thats obviously sarcasm
I’m glad they didn’t abort the babies. It doesn’t sound like they barely even considered it. That tells me that regardless of their other emotions, they care enough about the kids to not take the legal option to kill them. Obviously this dude is freaking out and being selfish, but they have another kid that they have already bonded with, so that tells me that he and his wife are capable of being good parents, they are just having serious issues right now.
It sounds to me like this dude is selfish, but has the capability of being a better person. And reading his article it seems like that couple may not have a ton of family and friends that they can lean on. They had a rough time with their first son (colic DOES suck), and that times two seems like it might be scaring him quite a bit, especially since they have a small child now on top of it.
I just don’t think he’s the worst, most pathetic, selfish, uncaring, person ever like some people seem to think. Just like with women who seek abortion because they think they can’t handle it or the baby isn’t the gender they wanted or a healthy as she hoped, I think this guy and his wife could use some help instead of condemnation.
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And I have about zero tolerance for the “man up” attitude towards him. You people who help out at pregnancy centers don’t tell the women there to woman up and get over themselves, you find out what the problem is and try to help fix it. If it’s money, you help her get set up with help from charity or welfare. If it is lack of support, you try to find babysitting or churches or what have you so she has people to lean on when she’s stressed out. If I knew this guy in real life I would offer him babysitting and such, listen to what his fears are and help him with them. It seems he has friends who are not helping allay his fears, which seems to be a lot of the problem.
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It’s the father’s whole Veruca Salt attitude that’s really making it hard to be sympathetic. “I WANTED A GIRL, DADDY! GET ME A GIRL, DADDY! I DON’T WANT TWIN BOYS, DADDY! GIVE ME WHAT I WANT!”
It’d be one thing if the article said, “We’re scared to death of the additional work of having twins and aren’t sure how we’ll cope” instead of “we spent $10k on IVF because we wanted a single girl, but now we’re having twin boys and we hate them. We’d abort them if there was a good reason for it.”
If they don’t want those twins — or their existing son, since they seem to loathe him as well — I know plenty of people who’d be delighted to adopt them.
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I just realized that “existing son” is a poor choice of words in my post above — it’s more accurate to say “born son.” In my head, I was thinking “son existing outside the womb” but didn’t type it that way. Mea culpa.
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People have emotions and thoughts (yes, even men. Men are not unfeeling machines). Emotions and thoughts are not always appropriate, selfless, rational, or smart. I would much rather someone express their inappropriate or unhealthy thoughts, so someone can offer help, support, or other options, than to have people suppress what they feel for fear of censure and end up shaking their infant or smacking their toddler. I really hope this dude seeks actual help rather than just complain about it (that can damage his kids if he’s just whining to whine). What I don’t think people should do is condemn others for expressing inappropriate emotions and thoughts about their children, if people feel condemned just for thinking something they won’t seek help, and that can lead to stressed out parents hurting their children.
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Sharing feelings, fears, etc. is one thing. Whining to an international audience about how you didn’t get the exact result you wanted with a $10k IVF procedure, and how you wish you had “a good reason” to kill one/both of your kids, is quite another.
He’s not asking for help and support in the article. He’s asking for someone (specifically, the echo chamber of liberal, abortion-loving HuffPo readership) to validate his selfishness. Apples and oranges.
Yes, parenting is hard work, and YES, twins are extremely challenging logistically, especially if you have other kids to care for. (My sister has a boy and girl and is expecting boy/girl twins this summer — I don’t envy her two newborns to care for at the same time she has a 5 year old and a 2 year old to juggle.) I sincerely hope they find a parents of multiples support group that will help them with practical advice and coping strategies. I hope their families and friends will step in with practical help as well. And if they visit a pro-life resource center near them, they can probably find that practical help or at least referrals to same.
But I also hope that someone close to him will smack him upside the head and tell him he’s being a douchebag, and he needs to man up and quit whining about the incredible gifts in his wife’s womb that he wishes he could kill so he’d be spared the extra work and stress.
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Women at CPCs are looking for a reason to keep the child whereas this man, by his own admission, is looking for reasons to abort the children.
I truly hope that the parents find a way to turn to God for His grace in raising these boys, and I hope that they have a supportive community which embraces these boys. I do not, however, condone the article or the thoughts expressed therein. He does not express them with much remorse over his own struggles to accept his boys. He writes with the attitude of a spoiled child, upset to discover that his favorite color of popsicle is all gone.
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I would rather have this guy express his unhealthy thoughts and emotions than bottle them up and end up hurting his kids and wife either emotionally or physically, abandoning his wife to raise three kids on her own, convincing/coercing her to abort, hurting himself through drugs/drinking/suicide, or just generally being an uninvolved father. It seems like venting and hopefully getting some help or other support would be much preferable to anything like that. People can’t always help how they feel, even if they feel horrible things, but there is help available and I think it should be offered as much as possible instead of just condemning.
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It just seems bizarre that the possibility of having twins (or triplets, for that matter) would come as such of a shock to a couple undergoing intense ART. It seems more likely that Dad freaked out and is trying to mask his own fears behind the first person plural.
BTW my partner and family were supportive. Thanks.
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Jack and Joanna it actually appears that you agree that this father needs help.
Perhaps the two of you could give your ideas on how his friends, family (if he has any) and society could help this Dad?
Very few of us have brothers and sisters anymore. I think we need larger families to overcome the isolation that modern society tends to cause.
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Sure, Jack, venting has its place. With his buddies, or perhaps bringing this struggle to a pastor or a wise friend. The article, however, doesn’t sound like concerned and struggling venting. It smacks of entitlement and self-absorption. For all things there is an appropriate media. This isn’t it.
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“Sharing feelings, fears, etc. is one thing. Whining to an international audience about how you didn’t get the exact result you wanted with a $10k IVF procedure, and how you wish you had “a good reason” to kill one/both of your kids, is quite another.
He’s not asking for help and support in the article. He’s asking for someone (specifically, the echo chamber of liberal, abortion-loving HuffPo readership) to validate his selfishness. Apples and oranges.”
Well part of that might just be a gender divide. Men are pretty heavily socialized to not ask for actual help. Men also tend to have a much less extensive social support networks as compared to women. I would rather him get his feelings out in an anonymous media than not at all. Plus you are making a whole lot of assumptions about why he made the post. You don’t actually know.
And seriously, the “man up” stuff is sexist and demeaning IMO. It’s basically just a way to enforce gender roles and its not a valid way of dealing with anything.
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Isolation (aka lack of family in fact or in neglect) breeds self-absorption.
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“Sure, Jack, venting has its place. With his buddies, or perhaps bringing this struggle to a pastor or a wise friend. The article, however, doesn’t sound like concerned and struggling venting. It smacks of entitlement and self-absorption. For all things there is an appropriate media. This isn’t it.”
Well, his friends seem really immature and unsupportive, at least the ones he mentioned in the article. For all you know he could have written this article in the hope that someone would offer some encouragement. I really hope he seeks some genuine help or that someone close to him notices his issues as offers some.
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Sorry, Jack, where in the article does he say he’s writing specifically because he wants help and support?
Being told to “man up” is not demeaning. (For what it’s worth, if his wife shares his loathing and desires a “good reason” to kill her children, she needs to “woman up.”) As a man, he needs to take responsibility for the lives he’s helped bring into the world, which means not whining to the international media that the $10k IVF procedure he and his wife chose to engage in didn’t yield the designer baby he wanted. Expressing loathing and a desire to kill his children is being a coward and a wuss, not a man.
Denise brought up Nadya Suleman earlier. She also needs to “woman up” and take responsibility for the children she brought into the world through a ridiculous IVF procedure. I’m glad she did not choose to kill any of her kids, because none of them deserved to die because of her foolishness, but that doesn’t change the fact that it was a stupid decision for her to have IVF in the first place, and now she has to take responsibility for the consequences of her actions.
Tyler, a parents of multiples support group would be an excellent first step.
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“And seriously, the “man up” stuff is sexist and demeaning” – Agreed.
“IMO. It’s basically just a way to enforce gender roles and its not a valid way of dealing with anything.” – Agreed in part. I agree that it is not a valid way of dealing with anything. Therefore, it doesn’t even support gender roles. It is “no” advice or help, it is pabulum. It is passing by the BUM on the street begging for food (not drugs) and doing nothing.
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The “man-up” comments enforce ignorance.
Many people do not have the good fortune of growing up in families where family values were discussed so many people, especially men, find it difficult to know exactly what their responsibilities are. There are very few institutions in society that speak to men. Everything that society says to men is summarized in the beer commercials, condom commercials, pizza commercials, video game commercials, and car commercials that are directed to them. It is pathetic.
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“Sorry, Jack, where in the article does he say he’s writing specifically because he wants help and support?”
He doesn’t. Which I already partially addressed. I don’t know many men who feel like it is socially acceptable to go and admit they are having a hard time and really need some support and love. When I was suicidal I didn’t ask for help, at all. I did make a bunch of “jokes” about it, though. It’s actually fairly difficult to ask for help when you’ve been socialized to never need it. There is a reason that women are far more likely to get psychiatric and other help than men, and it’s not because men are inherently more mentally stable or women are inherently smarter about getting help when they need it.
For all I know he could just be an immature, raging d-bag who needs a good talking to. But I’m not willing to assume he is, or shut him up (if I knew him on real life, that is). I would rather err on the side of offering support than automatic condemnation.
”
Being told to “man up” is not demeaning. (For what it’s worth, if his wife shares his loathing and desires a “good reason” to kill her children, she needs to “woman up.”) As a man, he needs to take responsibility for the lives he’s helped bring into the world, which means not whining to the international media that the $10k IVF procedure he and his wife chose to engage in didn’t yield the designer baby he wanted. Expressing loathing and a desire to kill his children is being a coward and a wuss, not a man.”
Expressing loathing or desire to kill your children is unhealthy and unnatural, which means he needs HELP. Not to be told he is a coward or wuss, not to have friends who simply confirm his fears rather than offer hope. Do you go to CPCs and tell the women that come there to get over it and stop whining? I highly doubt it. I doubt we’d have many “saves” if that was common. Same goes for your condemnation of Nadya.
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I was trying to be diplomatic in my earlier comment but after reading Jack’s comments I’m compelled to be more frank.
I believe men are created by God to protect and provide for their families. There are times when life gets hard. In these seasons, men need to be men. They need to be strong and work hard and power through life’s challenges. This is what God has equipped us for.
I would never, ever utter the words, “I don’t like my children.” Even when they were teenagers and those thoughts crossed my mind, I wouldn’t give voice to them. I would pray for them and believe that God was going to cause them to come around and believe the best. But in the womb? Twin boys? Are you kidding me? Do you know what my cousin with 5 girls would give to have a son?
I didn’t follow the link to the article because I figured it would just make me upset. Plus I don’t have time to read about someone whining about not wanting to step up to their responsibilities.
Just because this person calls himself Albert does not make him a man.
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Thanks Tyler, I’m pleasantly surprised we agree partially on something.
Ed H, attitudes like yours are part of the reason why we have a male suicide rate that’s three times higher than the female rate, why we have problems with men not receiving needed psychiatric care or even physical health care that they need, etc etc etc. Apparently they should just be a man and take it when things would be much better for them and their families if they did actually seek some help.
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@ Tyler: The American Dream of a private house for every nuclear family and the suburbanization that follows is isolating. We need to encourage apartment and condo living. That is less isolating. It is also more environmentally friendly as it makes mass transit more feasible and leaves more of nature to nature.
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Jack this guy definitely needs more than to “man-up.” This guy’s sense of humour is cruel and insensitive. He needs to get a heart – but unfortunately there is little another can do to help out in that area. His saving grace is that he said his comments sarcastically.
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If a woman who underwent a 10k IVF procedure with the hope she would have a singleton girl but got had twin boys instead walked into a CPC saying she was “looking for a reason” to kill her boys… my first question would probably be, “I’m sorry, what did you say?” Then I’d say, “I’m sorry, this is a CPC. We’ll offer you help and support during and after your pregnancy, but we won’t give you a reason or a justification to kill your children. If you really feel you can’t cope with the responsibility of raising twins, maybe an adoption plan would be your best option, but let’s look at all of your options and decide which is best for you. And we’ll get you a referral to a parents of multiples support group so you can talk to other parents of twins and get coping strategies as well as firsthand advice on what life with twins is like.”
It seems, Jack, you’re making the assumption that this guy is silently crying out for help… to largely pro-abortion, liberal audience that embraces selfish attitudes and lifestyles… and that’s okay for you to do, but my assumption that he’s a selfish douchebag is wrong. I’m basing my assumption on his words; specifically, his expressed desire for a good reason to kill his children because they’re not the gender or quantity that he wanted when he spent the $10k on IVF. I don’t really see how you get “silently crying out for help” out of that.
Also, Jack, my husband did “man up” when he sought help and treatment for his bipolar disorder, and I’m so proud of him. He would have failed in his responsibilities as a husband and father if he had not done so. What makes you think that “manning up” equates to “not seeking help”? Perhaps it is your perspective that is skewed in this area.
Being a responsible husband and father means doing what is best for your family to the best of your ability while making moral choices. Seeking treatment for psychological conditions is what is best for one’s family; ignoring your problems and not seeking help is what is not best for your family. Seeking help to cope with being a parent of multiples in difficult circumstances is what is best for your family; writing an article for the international media about how much you hate your kids and wish you had a good reason to kill them is not.
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IVF is a moral evil. It’s that simple. You cannot participate in IVF, encourage others to do so, nor fail to council others to totally avoid it. It is playing God, and we can see what kinds of attitudes that satanic temptation engenders: selfishness and narcissism on a breath-taking scale.
No, I have no “pity” for a family with one child and now “burdened” with two! What a ludicrous thing to say! We had 2 kids 3 and younger when we had our twins. So, we had four kids under 4. Yes, it was crazy, but by accepting what God planned for us we made it through without too many problems. I know another couple that just had their 6th child, the oldest being 8. You get through it, because you can. I found the “understanding” about not wanting twins after already suffering under the crushing weight of one child almost as offensive as the original piece. It was the exact same mentality, just applied slightly differently. I do have great pity for the children involved, and a sort of pity for the couple, in that they are such insufferably self-centered creatures.
Contraception is at the root of all this. If you use contraception, you are engaged in a moral evil not very different from abortion. Many forms of contraception likely cause abortions, in the first place. But even more, it’s the “I can control this vital aspect of my life, irrespective of what God commands and the Church has always believed” mentality that is at the root of all these reproductive evils: contraception, abortion, IVF, stem cell research, etc., etc. I admire Jill greatly for being someone who understands that. And I share her firm belief that this nation shall never be rid of abortion, until people quit their profound dependence on contraception. Sorry if that bothers those of you still wedded to contraception, but it’s not me you have a problem with……….
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While I do pray that these parents’ hearts are changed toward their twins, I have no sympathy for them or “my heart goes out to them” feelings. They paid to manufacture those boys. They treated it like ordering a custom-made car, or a specialty cake, with just the right features to suit their demands. They didn’t want to receive the gift of a child — they wanted to order up a daughter, like a commodity. And because they didn’t get exactly what they paid for, they’re unhappy and dissatisfied and feeling put-upon. Oh, woe is them! How terrible that they were even robbed of a good “reason” to kill one or both of them due to health problems! Oh, the misery of healthy babies!!
They are poster-examples of why IVF is morally wrong and why we need to stop manufacturing babies. Life is a gift. Children are GIFTS we receive from God, not products we can order to our specifications.
These boys are going to grow up and perhaps someday read what their father wrote. I pity them. My heart goes out to those twins. They deserve much better.
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Jack,
I hear what you are saying but I did not say (or intend to imply) that we just “take it (tough times) like a man. What I was trying to communicate is that there is something noble about men being able to come to the rescue, to be the hero, to help those that are weak and oppressed. But in reality, as you are pointing out, we are just men. Men with faults, imperfect with our own weaknesses.
In fact, the quicker we men do what you suggest and embrace our weaknesses and shortcomings, and look to our Creator for grace to help in our times of need, the quicker we will find the Source of all strength and power. I believe when we are blessed, it puts us in a position to be a source of blessing and strength to others.
You make a great point about suicide. I lost my older brother and an uncle who both took their own lives. Jesus can and will heal our broken wounded hearts if we’ll just come to Him.
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This guy isn’t in shock over the sudden appearance of twins, he’s throwing a tantrum over not getting exactly what he “ordered”. Despite feeling like one child alone “damaged” him and his wife, they decided to drop 10 grand on getting him a sister. When they found out there two two, and they were boys, they desperately looked for a “good” reason to abort at least one of them. If either one of those babies had shown anything abnormal, they would have been gone in a heartbeat, so to speak. He is an absolute whiner. We don’t get to hear personally from his wife, but all we hear is that she doesn’t like the babies. Ambivalent feelings when one finds out one is having multiples are not shocking and not uncommon, but hunting around for a reason to kill them is not part of that.
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”
If a woman who underwent a 10k IVF procedure with the hope she would have a singleton girl but got had twin boys instead walked into a CPC saying she was “looking for a reason” to kill her boys… my first question would probably be, “I’m sorry, what did you say?” Then I’d say, “I’m sorry, this is a CPC. We’ll offer you help and support during and after your pregnancy, but we won’t give you a reason or a justification to kill your children. If you really feel you can’t cope with the responsibility of raising twins, maybe an adoption plan would be your best option, but let’s look at all of your options and decide which is best for you. And we’ll get you a referral to a parents of multiples support group so you can talk to other parents of twins and get coping strategies as well as firsthand advice on what life with twins is like.”
Where do you call her a coward, a wuss, a raging douchebag, etc?
“It seems, Jack, you’re making the assumption that this guy is silently crying out for help… to largely pro-abortion, liberal audience that embraces selfish attitudes and lifestyles… and that’s okay for you to do, but my assumption that he’s a selfish douchebag is wrong. I’m basing my assumption on his words; specifically, his expressed desire for a good reason to kill his children because they’re not the gender or quantity that he wanted when he spent the $10k on IVF. I don’t really see how you get “silently crying out for help” out of that.”
I’m not assuming he’s crying out for help. I think it’s a possibility. It’s also a possibility that he’s a selfish manchild, or a sociopath, or whatever. What I am saying, is that we should generally assume that people need help and offer it, especially when there are children involved that deserve an involved, less stressed and unselfish father, rather than an absent one, an emotionally or physically abusive one, or an uninvolved and selfish one. Assuming he’s a douchebag and needs to get over himself isn’t going to get these children the father they deserve if it’s at all possible, no more than telling my mom to… stop being mentally ill I guess would have gotten me a non-abusive mother.
“Also, Jack, my husband did “man up” when he sought help and treatment for his bipolar disorder, and I’m so proud of him. He would have failed in his responsibilities as a husband and father if he had not done so. What makes you think that “manning up” equates to “not seeking help”? Perhaps it is your perspective that is skewed in this area.”
Well, that’s the social message that “man up” carries to a lot of people. Get over it, be man, push down your worries and feelings and ignore them. It’s a social message that gets passed on to boys when they are little with “boys don’t cry” and all that garbage. Similar to the way that little girls get sexualized by social messages, are taught that their looks are the most important things about them, etc. If my perspective is skewed it’s because that’s what I was taught. Now I obviously don’t think that being a man has anything to do with ignoring your issues until they cause serious problems, but it’s just disingenuous to pretend that’s not a message that’s pretty prevalent and that plenty of males internalize. I don’t understand why people would prefer to just pretend that people don’t internalize these stereotypes. You can say that they aren’t right all you want, but that doesn’t mean that people aren’t affected by them and that doesn’t influence their behavior.
I’m glad your husband got the help he needed btw.
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Okay, so they admit their faults. And yeah, they are faults. Mercifully, they didn’t kill the kids.
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They didn’t fall all the way to murder.
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Sorry, Jack, I missed the part where I said the man or the hypothetical woman should be called a coward or a wuss to their faces, especially in a context of seeking assistance? Can you quote where I said so, please?
Were you raised as a fundamentalist Christian, by any chance? Your definition of what it means to “man up” seems to reflect someone raised in that atmosphere, which is probably why you have such a strong dislike to the term. I’m coming from a Catholic Christian perspective, where to “man up” does not mean to “suppress one’s worries and feelings at all costs” or keep from getting necessary help for an addiction or illness, but rather to love one’s wife and family as Christ loved the Church and do what is best for them within the bounds of morality.
And I would hope that a backlash against this guy’s attitude might help him realize that he’s being a selfish brat, and maybe he’ll be a better husband and father because of it. Sadly, he’ll only get affirmation of his selfishness from HuffPo, which is probably why he chose to publish his article there.
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I read the article at Babble. Whooo, priceless. A few gems there.
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Two blessings, two bundles of joy. How could you not be happy, you ask? Of course I’m sympathetic to people who can’t get pregnant, or who spend a couple of years trying IVF after IVF. But having kids is a selfish endeavor, and in these cases it’s all very relative and highly personal.
Well, maybe, in this case it is. Not everyone is so selfish. How about those folks who adopt handicapped kids? Come, on tell us how selfish those folks are.
When our first son was born, I was naïve. I remember thinking it was going to be nice to be home for a while and have some time off. I couldn’t have been more wrong. Those first six weeks were brutal. Then the colic arrived. Two months later, we were shattered, frazzled, damaged. Two years later, our son was still waking up for hours on end in the middle of the night. Three years later, we still struggle mightily with a boy who’s fiercely strong-willed and seems to inherently know that crying pushes our buttons.
LOL ! Gee, the kid is just like dad! What the heck did he expect? Did he think his kid would be like Mother Therese instead of like his own parents?
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One of the reasons suicide is skyrocketing (of course there are many reasons) is the concept that people are disposable. Since 1973, babies have been disposable in all 50 states, and anyone born since then has grown up only knowing a nation of disposable children. We also have the ‘assisted murder’ oh I’m sorry, ‘assisted suicide’ movement pushing disposability from the other end. This isn’t because we tell people to man up. This is because we tell them that when the going gets rough, see who you can snuff. And I say, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!
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Suicide is skyrocketing among men.
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So, don’t expect too many tears from the media.
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My sister has 4 boys. She longs for a daughter. They are adopting a daughter. A toddler or maybe a little older…she is in Ethiopia right now. They love each of their wonderful, unique boys. And they are excited about meeting their daughter and bringing her home later this year.
I pray those parents love those twin boys. I think someday they will. And he will read this article some day and be appalled that he could have ever not wanted his twin boys. maybe those boys will be his best friends some day.
My sister felt momentary disappointment when baby #3 and #4 were boys. But she wouldn’t trade any of her sons now. And she knows her daughter was never meant to grow in her womb but was meant to come to her family through adoption. Her beautiful Ethiopian daughter. If she had grown in my sister’s womb she wouldn’t have that beautiful dark skin. She was meant to look the way she does but she was still meant to be my sister’s daughter.
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Sorry, I was being snotty with the “where do you call her a coward” thing, shouldn’t have said that. I just don’t shaming people works, if it does I would think it’s rare, and I don’t understand why anyone would think that people would come to pro-lifers for help if all they see from us is condemnation and judgement. I feel the same way about people who are harsh about aborting mothers and such.
“Were you raised as a fundamentalist Christian, by any chance? Your definition of what it means to “man up” seems to reflect someone raised in that atmosphere, which is probably why you have such a strong dislike to the term. I’m coming from a Catholic Christian perspective, where to “man up” does not mean to “suppress one’s worries and feelings at all costs” or keep from getting necessary help for an addiction or illness, but rather to love one’s wife and family as Christ loved the Church and do what is best for them within the bounds of morality.”
I was raised fundamentalist Christian so over the top that it’s not much recognizable as Christianity. I don’t have pleasant association of that phrase, or the connotations. I think it’s damaging. And I’m not a Christian at all now, so the way you are coming at the phrase doesn’t apply to me, though it’s no doubt healthier than the way I generally view that phrase.
“And I would hope that a backlash against this guy’s attitude might help him realize that he’s being a selfish brat, and maybe he’ll be a better husband and father because of it. Sadly, he’ll only get affirmation of his selfishness from HuffPo, which is probably why he chose to publish his article there.”
I don’t think “backlash”, unless it comes in the form of “not cool dude, but I can see you’re struggling, how can I help?” does much more than get people to hide the way they feel. Suppression of these types of thoughts and feelings isn’t healthy, they’ll eventually cause problems. That’s part of the reason you get men abandoning their families, mothers smacking around their toddlers, and all the other terrible things that parents do when they aren’t supported properly or are having unaddressed issues. Of course there are just genuinely selfish and terrible human beings that don’t want to be helped, and people who simply don’t care how they hurt others, but I believe it’s best to be as accepting and compassionate as is possible.
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I will GLADLY adopt both babies from them. Tell me where and when to go!!!
Poor kids with such selfish, horrific parents. And those parents will raise those kids to see them thinking of only themselves. The kids will act the same way and the parents will say. “See? We knew this would happen.” Like its the kids fault.
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Whoa! Who was bashing “fundamentalist Christians” as if we don’t know what it means to “man up” and as if we think it is wrong to ask for help. The men in my church humbly ask for prayer every week as they struggle with the daily issues of life. They are never afraid to admit when they are struggling and need spiritual or material help.And they are never viewed as “unmanly” when they accept help. Sheesh. Whoever that Catholic was who said such a thing (didn’t read up the list of comments) your viewpoint that fundamentalist Christians foster an attitude that men should never ask for help is absurd.
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Sydney – I didn’t say it was a view held by every single fundamentalist Christian on the planet Earth, but in my personal experience, it is a view that some do hold (it’s more prevalent in certain sects than others). I understand there’s a broad spectrum of belief in fundamentalist sects of Christianity so I apologize for not being more precise in my comments.
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Jack,
I think there’s a difference between shaming someone and reading his article and going, “Woah, figure it out!” which is what I’m primarily seeing here. Most of the posters seem to feel like the whining & self-centered attitude needs to quit. Which is fair. This guy, if he was genuinely reaching out for help, would have described his situation in a more “struggling to find acceptance & trying to be joyful” place rather than a, “poor me I didn’t get what I want” place.
When I had my first son, I would sit in the rocking chair and cry, and on the rare occasions when I felt compelled or strengthened to speak of my struggles with friends, I would speak of them with great trouble. I would talk about how hard it was, to feel so powerless, and how horrible I felt, to be so upset at him for simply being himself. I would NEVER have asked “what about MY wellbeing?” because it wasn’t about me. It was about him, and how my feelings and emotions were failing in my duties to him.
This father isn’t particularly concerned with how he is letting down his sons. He is concerned with how his sons are letting down him.
“we’re pissed. And terrified, and angry, and guilty, and regretful.”
“My initial reaction was full of disappointment, anger, fear, and guilt. ”
“As horrible as this might sound, we found ourselves wishing these twins away.”
“ This time around, we’re counting down — not like expecting parents but like cancer patients with only months to live. Enjoy life while you can, for soon it’s double the diapers, double the feedings”
“So tell me how this isn’t going to suck. ”
“In the meantime, I’ve promised to stop referring to one of the boys as “extra” and have told my wife I will try to refrain from calling my first-born son “the free one.””
Read: I am pissed and upset that I got more than I bargained for when my wife got pregnant. What if I have to stay up all the time with colicy babies? What if they are horrible brats? I don’t deserve to be put upon like this.
Coming from someone who struggled, sincerely, with a colicy son, who is incredibly strong-willed and energetic: when I worry about the baby I will have the blessing to meet in October, I do not worry about the fact that now I will be parenting along with working fulltime. I do not worry about how little sleep I will get, or how stressed I will be. I accept those as realities. My 3 children will wear me out and my rather demanding job will split my attentions and I will be perpetually tired and that is my future for a little while and I rejoice in it. What I worry about is how my split attention and little sleep and inability to focus on their needs will affect my children. How will my needs take away from my children?
Through the grace of God, I have matured greatly since my first was born, and I do not expect the sort of response from the author that I have to my pregnancy. I do, however, wish to see some spark of desire for goodness in this man. Some desire to give of himself and to grow for the wellbeing of his children, who depend on his sacrifice for their health and wellbeing. Not for him to already accept his future, but for him to seem to want to do right, to seem to want to accept these twins in his life. And that is what is lacking in this article. I do very much hope that it is present in his life, somewhere. Perhaps in a friend or acquaintance or coworker.
I refuse to feel sorry for him, but I am certainly hopeful for him as well as his wife and children.
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I need to clarify something. I think Joanna has did a very good job of explaining what she means by “man-up.”
DeniseNoe – I am curious as to what you think of what is happening in Ireland. It seems Ireland got into this debate just after our conversation about the X-Case.
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Huh. I have a unique take on this I think… or at least not one that has been represented by these comments so far.
I’m – from the legal perspective only – pro choice. But I have no sympathy for this guy and can’t possibly understand the desire to defend his words.
Though I’m an atheist, I feel if you (as an individual or a couple) can’t conceive, that is your body saying “its not meant to happen this way for you”. Some people may feel its God telling them that… cool, I get it. When you choose to circumvent that by undergoing IVF, you are forfeiting your right to be all “oh noeezzz, this isn’t what I wanted!!” You’re not a victim of circumstance or bad luck or “oops”. You intentionally underwent a change in the status of your body that may result in 1, 2, 5, or 8 human embryos. If having twins wasn’t something you considered before you had a needle inserted in you, oh well. If you werent ready for this, you had a very easy solution… don’t have IVF.
That being said, all of his feelings of fear and being overwhelmed are normal. I have those feelings, and that is precisely why my husband and I HAVENT MADE BABIES. Its pretty simple. There is a short list of things I want to have/do before I’ll be ready. I understand the consequence for me waiting may be that I will have trouble conceiving. If I do, I know that will mean I’m meant to adopt. I’ve known and accepted that for a long time. You can’t have it all. I hope this guy feels like an asshole after these boys are born beautiful and healthy and he thinks about what he wrote about them…
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Oh come on! These are babies….HUMAN BEINGS…not commoditites! This couple knew full well that multiples were a possibility with IVF. They took the risk ANYWAY. I don’t feel badly for them AT ALL! They won’t get any sympathy from me.
However, I do feel badly for these precious children…that they will be raised (hopefully…unless of course they decide to murder them!) by two morons who after being pregnant with them for some 5 months….are still contemplating getting rid of them….or who still don’t feel an attachment to them. Sick, Sick, Sick.
May God have mercy on their souls.
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