“Bro-choicers” boohoo: Texas abortion bill could curb our casual sex
For those of us guys who like girls – you know, like them like them – and want to have relationships with them that may last anywhere from a few minutes to many years, we need to think about how this bill, by curtailing the bodily autonomy and sexual freedom of women, hurts us, too. We need to stand with women in their fight to control their own bodies….
Can you think of anything that kills the vibe faster than a woman fearing a back-alley abortion? Making abortion essentially inaccessible in Texas will add an anxiety to sex that will drastically undercut its joys.
And don’t be surprised if casual sex outside of relationships becomes far more difficult to come by.
It’s clear: if the Legislature basically takes away a Texas woman’s right to choose, having sex becomes… riskier for us men, who may well end up fathers well before we intend.
~ Ben Sherman, “Bro-Choice: How #HB2 Hurts Texas Men Who Like Women,” Burnt Orange Report, July 3
Hot Air has some commentary in response.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Ben Sherman is a selfish, ignorant, sexist sh*t.
Seriously.
On a list of the factors and impacts of reproductive freedom and choices for women, ‘casual sex may be harder to come by’ ranks somewhere off the bottom of the page.
Reality, I was glad to have ‘liked’ your post above. Here’s to hoping you can keep it up
So, this whole “bro-choice” thing is just some type of parody, right? Like there’s no way this is actually meant to be taken seriously. Right?
Don’t hold your breath sunshine! ;-)
Ben Sherman underscores one of the points pro-lifers have been making for years. Unrestricted abortion leads to the sexual objectification and exploitation of women. So called “free love” goes hand in glove with the contraceptive – abortion mentality as though there were no casualties or consequences from such a hedonistic lifestyle.
This is just nasty. I can’t stand dudebros like this.
This reminds me of my close friend who was quite promiscuous when he was young. He is a handsome man in middle age and was VERY handsome in his twenties. I asked, “What would have happened if one of your girlfriends had gotten pregnant?”
He answered, “She would have aborted.”
I was startled by how confident he sounded so I pointed out, “You couldn’t legally force her to abort.”
“No, but I would have made her life so miserable she would have had to abort just to get some peace,” he answered.
Amen MoJoanne!!
Although I would tend to agree with Reality’s sentiment he/she still supports the objectification and exploitation of women via abortion.
Ben Sherman speaks truth. Tells it like it is!! I appreciate brutal honesty. He uses women for his own self gratification and he feels that is being threatened. He at least owns it instead of hiding behind “women’s reproductive health care” and a “woman’s right to choose.”
Have your fun, Ben and then walk away…….there is nothing new under the sun.
We’ve come a long way baby!!
When I tell the above story about my friend, women often assert that “he wouldn’t have done that to ME.” Some of them claim they never would have succumbed to the charms of such a man in the first place. Others say that even if they did get pregnant by him, he couldn’t have pressured them into aborting.
Obviously, different individuals behave very differently in just about any situation. However, I believe a lot of women who condemn this guy WOULD have had sex with him had they met him when he was young. He is extremely good-looking and outgoing and can be a lot of fun to be around.
He doesn’t find me physically attractive and has told me so in just those words. He’s also said that while he can have sex with women he doesn’t care about, unlike many men, he cannot have sex with women who aren’t physically attractive to him. This is moot anyway since I have every intention of remaining celibate.
Those who are certain he couldn’t possibly have pressured them into aborting shouldn’t be quite so certain. An unplanned pregnancy is automatically a stressful period. That stress goes up by many factors when the man who impregnated makes it clear she will receive no support of any kind from him. It goes up by many factors again when the man harasses and/or threatens. As reluctant as any woman might be to abort, she might abort if the man who impregnated wages a kind of intimidation campaign against her and my friend is capable of doing such.
This guy is my friend. He’s not my boyfriend and I have no illusions that he is quite flawed in many — and major — ways.
This pig doesn’t “like” women.
He likes to use women.
1968. Humanae vitae. Pope Paul VI warned us that when a culture embraces contraception, women are reduced to objects for the satisfaction and pleasure of men. Does anyone doubt this?
Can you think of anything that kills the vibe faster than a woman fearing a back-alley abortion?
Yeah, Bro, nothing kills the vibe like the shuddering realization “Uh-oh, this may MEAN something!” This guy is a disgrace. Nothing like coming right out and saying “if natural consequences arise, you’re going back alley, honey, cuz I’m not stepping up to THAT plate!”
Why is there always the pre-supposition that control of the body must take place after intercourse?
As if self-control isn’t possible.
There’s a huge difference between men who love women, and those who “like-like” girls.
Apparently Ben doesn’t know what love is all about.
I agree with Del… Ben just wants to use women for his own satisfaction. He might as well be soliciting prostitutes but I’m sure he wouldn’t want to pay for it. Unfortunately this society has become one of “free love” whereby sex means nothing just selfish pleasure. They call it “free love ” but there is no real love in it. True love is unselfish and giving. Not to say that saving sex for marriage is easy but who says anything in life is easy? Look at the life he wants… To have sex whenever with whomever, to kill a baby if situation should arise, to dispense of one woman for a new one, get a few std’s in the process, sound like a great life , Ben! So to this Ben guy even though he makes me sick, I’ll pray for him because he need prayers!
And all this over a bill that bans abortion after 20 weeks, Ben? He speaks truth, what they want is sex without consequences and if they mess up and get pregnant they want an easy out and at taxpayers expense. Any questions??
anywhere from a few minutes to many years,
Please find me one girl/woman who wants to have a “relationship” for a few minutes. If a female is alone with him and she says no, I have my sincere doubts that he would stop.
Proabort women need to wake the heck up.
Susie Allen says:
July 11, 2013 at 8:38 am
And all this over a bill that bans abortion after 20 weeks
(Denise) Indeed. Abortion is legal throughout Western Europe — during early pregnancy. Most countries in Western Europe do not allow the practice after 20 weeks and many place a ban at the end of the third month of pregnancy.
4 weeks = end of 1s month.
20 weeks = end of FIFTH month.
It is common knowledge that abortion becomes much more difficult to perform after the end of the third month of pregnancy. It also becomes increasingly grisly (not that it is ever pretty). For these reasons and others, the vast majority of countries with liberal abortion laws still outlaw the practice before the end of the fifth month of pregnancy.
Something like 90% of abortion seeking females in the United States are within the first three months of pregnancy. Why would any girl or woman seek an abortion so very late in the pregnancy? She already has a big belly (usually) and she feels movement in her belly on a regular basis. I believe there are 3 main reasons abortions are sought so late in pregnancy: 1) A finding that the fetus is deformed or ill; 2) A change in the woman’s health indicating completing the pregnancy is dangerous for her; 3) She is a young woman who was unable to realize she was pregnant until very late. Those in that last category are often minor girls who have been sexually exploited by adult male predators. The teenaged girls are often victims of a sex crime.
“And all this over a bill that bans abortion after 20 weeks, Ben?”
Interesting enough, the Hot Air link points out that the famously amorous French somehow live with a 12 week abortion ban.
Furthermore, the famously sexually liberal Swedish have to deal with a 18 week abortion ban, which is still more restrictive than the proposed Texas law.
Dear Ben,
What color bus will you have? What will be your catchy slogans?
When is your BROCHOICE parade?
Come on man. Time to get organized!!
BE LOUD!! BE PROUD!!
(so the “no sex until you join your proabort ladies” worked eh??)
For once I agree with you Reality. I bet Hugh Hefner feels the same way. It’s not about women’s bodies, its about men’s “right” to use us as disposable objects. What a truly sickening way to think.
Benny botched the title of his selfish rant. It should be “Boys Who Like Women”.
Benny is not a man.
Precisely the type of dirt bag that I would turn the dogs loose on. Come on by Ben!
JDC says:
July 11, 2013 at 10:22 am
“And all this over a bill that bans abortion after 20 weeks, Ben?”Interesting enough, the Hot Air link points out that the famously amorous French somehow live with a 12 week abortion ban.
(Denise) As I pointed out: WHY would anyone seek an abortion at the end of the FIFTH MONTH of pregnancy? Either a fetal defect was discovered, the pregnant woman had a medical problem, or she is a young woman who has been victimized by a sexual predator.
Who knew this guy was pro-life? Seriously, I’m not seeing a down-side to his argument! Creating an incentive to avoid casual sex? Bring. It. On.
I found a great bumper sticker idea in the comment section of Burnt Orange Report:
Abortion! Helping women be used for sex since 1973!
I’m gonna share Ben’s comments with the teen girls in my sex ed program.
Men should be stepping up to the plate as fathers and protectors rather than perpetuating this idea that somehow sex without consequences is achievable (it’s not–whether or not you conceive, hormones/bonding still exists) and that in-uteral human beings don’t deserve the same rights as outside-the-womb-humans simply because of location. It really bothers me, not just as a pro-lifer, but as a woman, too. Whatever happened to males being taught to be a gentleman?
I know what white knighting is, but what do you call this? Pimping for abortion?
Ben Sherman speaks truth. Tells it like it is!! I appreciate brutal honesty. He uses women for his own self gratification and he feels that is being threatened. He at least owns it instead of hiding behind “women’s reproductive health care” and a “woman’s right to choose.”
Have your fun, Ben and then walk away…….there is nothing new under the sun.
We’ve come a long way baby!!
—-
But Carla he did say he can like women from a few minutes to many years. Doesn’t that make his point of view totally ok? Isn’t a few minutes of being liked enough for most women?
And don’t be surprised if casual sex outside of relationships becomes far more difficult to come by.
I had to read that twice! WHAT???… Where this guy has come from??? I guess I should appreciate his honesty. However disgusting it is, that he sees women only as objects of sexual pleasure, and nothing else, I mean really – HOW HORRIBLE if you won’t be able to have sex outside of a relationship! My goodness! You might actually have to commit to someone!!! Shock Horror!
I thought I’ve heard it all by now, but pro-aborts are still able to surprise!
And the whole article is just a jumble of fear mongering, with no basis in facts.
Since it hasn’t been said yet, stay classy, Ben Sherman.
Totally Tyler. Totally.
:)
Isn’t this what the new wave of feminism is about though??
Women just like Ben.
Food for thought
The REAL feminists were prolife. You know…back in the olden days.
“The REAL feminists were prolife. You know…back in the olden days.”
The REAL feminists still are prolife. There just aren’t that many real ones these days.
Ben & his pals are are the best advertisement for the pro-life position in a long while. Keep talking, boys! The hole’s getting deeper with each shovelful of BS.
I think I just threw up in my mouth a little…
What a shameful example of humanity. Can’t stand these nasty “dudebros” (and also the female equivalent – let’s face it they exist too) who think that they can just use other people for their own gratification. I mean, good gracious! It’ll be harder to get sex outside of relationships? What *is* this world coming to?
“Please find me one girl/woman who wants to have a “relationship” for a few minutes. If a female is alone with him and she says no, I have my sincere doubts that he would stop.”
Nah, there are certainly plenty of women who are into the whole casual sex and predatory behavior, otherwise I wouldn’t wear my old wedding ring when I go to the bar and have a drink.
I do think the “men” like Ben Sherman are more common than the female equivalent, but with the hook up culture the way it is now, who knows?
So women need to step up and respect themselves. The real feminists are the women who respect themselves enough to make men respect women. Casual sex = no respect for either gender. Both persons involved use each other EXCEPT women get the raw end of the deal. Murdering babies is another heinous disrespect toward human life. But that’s what this country is all about-no respect for human life. Everyone is an object to be used or dispensed with, not a person who is real and is alive and has feelings and is irreplaceable.
Does Ben Sherman know the meaning of SUBLIMATION?
Sexual impulses can be sublimated.
Gross. Real men don’t use women – for sex, for babies or for labor.
I agree. There is little reason to respect women in this country when our President even calls children “sexual beings”–not innocent human life worth of protection–but SEXUAL BEINGS! So, if any of his girls would wind up pregnant, he would have no problem with aborting her child so (in his words) “…they wouldn’t be punished with a child.” Sounds like he is all for using women as long as they are not a problem either.
“There is little reason to respect women in this country when our President even calls children “sexual beings”–not innocent human life worth of protection–but SEXUAL BEINGS!”
When was this said? I’m not doubting you, I just don’t remember the President talking about kids being sexual beings, that’s disgusting if he did say that.
BlueVelvet: “Real men don’t use women – for sex, for babies or for labor”
It seems to me that every abortion is evidence of “use” of another, by someone.
It’s natural and non-volitional for an unborn child to “use” its mother — it’s a biological contract. Pro-choice women seem to imagine that a social contract that deems the unborn an unwelcome parasite (as if it is properly held responsible for a failure to propositionally negotiate some other terms) trumps that biological contract. It’s just war against nature. That’s fine — but if it’s someone else’s “nature” to use another person, I’m not sure how you can argue against that. Heck, I’m not sure how you can argue against someone volitionally using another person. I think you could make a better case for a person using another person in sex, for example, if it’s consensual, than for aborting someone with no say in the matter.
Jack:
http://bit.ly/1bsybWE
;-)
Lol I love LMGTFY, it’s delightfully sarcastic.
Obama didn’t say that, the Department of Health and Human Services did and has since removed the offending language. Disturbing thought process though, kids aren’t “sexual”.
I have a 15 year old daughter and she may not talk to any man who name merely starts with a B.
Yikes times infinity.
What have we done???
Abortion is not birth control.
“Abortion is not birth control.”
Depends on how you define birth control. I mean it does prevent a live birth, so in a sense it is something that controls birth. I think the statement you are looking for is something more like abortion is not contraception, as it does not prevent conception.
Nah, there are certainly plenty of women who are into the whole casual sex and predatory behavior, otherwise I wouldn’t wear my old wedding ring when I go to the bar and have a drink.
No doubt but the average woman who is okay with casual sex will still need more than a few minutes to warm up. Women just are not wired like men.
” No doubt but the average woman who is okay with casual sex will still need more than a few minutes to warm up. Women just are not wired like men. ”
Oooh, gotcha. Sorry, I misunderstood what you were referring to.
“
And don’t be surprised if casual sex outside of relationships becomes far more difficult to come by”
Okay, so that’s what
“Stand with Texas Women”
Reality, I was taken aback by your thorough denunciation of Mr. Sherman’s position. It made me wonder what is the difference between his position and yours?
Jack, and the sad thing is, I bet wearing your wedding ring doesn’t even stop them half the time. There’s a lot of people – men and women – who get a thrill from hitting on people in relationships because it’s “forbidden.” I’ve had a perv hit on me while pregnant too. It pissed me off. And my wedding rings have never stopped guys from flirting. Maybe a few, but not as often as I’d like. Sigh.
Pray tell what a “biological contract” might be, rasqual. Is the woman who gives her child up for adoption also in violation of this “contract”? Are men equally yoked by some analogous “contract,” or is it really only used to police the female reproductive system?
BlueVelvet, it is the prochoice movement who have un-yoked men from the biological contract. They have reduced men to sperm donors for the most post, and fathers only when wanted. You have been so corrupted by radical feminism you no longer understand how human beings are reproduced. It is feminism that is policing the female reproductive system. In fact, I believe the name of one of the officers is Blue Velvet.
Adoption is a different kind of contract – I thought you would understand that.
My apologies to rasqual if I answered incorrectly.
I should clarify that men have been un-yoked from the biological contract in the legal bizarro world only. The true biological contract, the one that exists in nature, can never be altered.
BlueVelvet: This isn’t really all that hard, but a “pray tell” prologue on your part indicates contempt for, like, reality itself. Putatively concerned with women’s reproductive health, the moment I speak of biology and the normative character of its arrangements, you wax scornful. Fascinating.
An unborn child’s only recourse — by nature’s demand, not be social convention among other humans — is to depend on the good will of its mother. This is actually true of a newborn as well — although once born, a child may be nursed and cared for by another. While in the womb, though, the child naturally depends on one, single person for its well-being. This is nature’s “decision,” not a choice by any culture that could possibly be otherwise. Social contracts vary in different cultures — this biological state of affairs transcends culture, it’s truly universal.
So “pray tell” of something that transcends politics, culture, spirituality — it’s pretty lame of you. Yes, I know that is is not ought. But it’s simple enough to establish that standards of volitional conduct do not apply to an unborn child. In the asymmetries of power that therefore exist between mother and child (since pro-choice has reduced maternity to operations of will to power, paralleling the decline of the social contract in larger society with its “personal is political” low point of civil order), it’s as proper to speak of this biological contract meriting respect as it is to speak of disabled people being entitled to reasonable accommodation based on the cards nature has dealt them.
Just think a bit. Don’t be so dismissive, as if pro-lifers were dolts. Fair enough?
If I may summarize – being prochoice is irresponsible, and neglectful of one’s duty to those weaker than oneself. By the way, this lesson about the irresponsibility of the pro-choice position is something that I learned from all the prolife women who post on this site, including the site owner: Jill, Carla, Laura, Praxedes, Sydney, Del, Kel, JoAnna, Mary Rose, Ninek, CityofAngels, xalisae, etc…
If the prolife movement can speak in the language of responsibility instead of using religious and even scientific language I think the prolife movement wins.
For too long the prochoice side has tried to present itself as the more responsible movement. This needs to end.
You’re absolutely right, Tyler.
Maybe we could get Reality to add the word “irresponsible” to his sentence: Ben Sherman is a selfish, ignorant, sexist sh*t.
Ben Sherman is irresponsible and so is abortion.
We never know, Praxedes. Reality is so annoyed with Ben he might be willing to include that in his sentence.
—-
The are some other benefits to understanding abortion as the irresponsible choice. The corollary idea to the view that abortion is irresponsible is the idea that motherhood is the responsible choice. And moreover, as rasqual points out, a mother is still responsible for the unborn child even if the unborn child is the result of a rape. She is responsible because there is natural asymmetrical power relationship between a mother and her unborn child. Discussing the life choice as the responsible choice allows prolifers to talk about all the issues, including the exceptions, in a non-threatening, simple, understandable and winsome way. It also makes it possible to avoid talking about statistics - that often get muddled in delivery. It also avoids the hysterical dialogue that is created when we call abortion murder.
I would like to get Truthseeker’s input on this idea because he is very hesitant about being prolife in the situation of a rape.
“And moreover, as rasqual points out, a mother is still responsible for the unborn child even if the unborn child is the result of a rape. She is responsible because there is natural asymmetrical power relationship between a mother and her unborn child. ”
I wouldn’t call a woman who aborts because of rape, incest, abuse, coercion, etc “irresponsible” or anything like that. I can’t see how that’s productive dialogue towards already hurting people. It’s just shaming language and I don’t see how that helps our case, or more importantly, the people we’re trying to reach.
“Jack, and the sad thing is, I bet wearing your wedding ring doesn’t even stop them half the time. There’s a lot of people – men and women – who get a thrill from hitting on people in relationships because it’s “forbidden.” I’ve had a perv hit on me while pregnant too. It pissed me off. And my wedding rings have never stopped guys from flirting. Maybe a few, but not as often as I’d like. Sigh. ”
Oh yeah it doesn’t stop everyone. Really annoying. I don’t see what the fun is about hitting on people in a relationship, just seems disrespectful to yourself and the other person.
I wouldn’t call a woman who aborts because of rape, incest, abuse, coercion, etc “irresponsible” or anything like that. I can’t see how that’s productive dialogue towards already hurting people. It’s just shaming language and I don’t see how that helps our case, or more importantly, the people we’re trying to reach.
====
Jack, thanks for challenging this idea. I definitely don’t see this as shaming language. I think it all depends how it is spoken.
No one is calling the rape victim irresponsible, we are calling the choice to abort the unborn child irresponsible. Huge difference and easily explained. Of course the rape victim is not responsible for the rape that has taken place, but they are responsible for the unborn child. All children, born or unborn, require responsible parents. I would think this is a positive and empowering message to be sending to a victim of rape. It allows the rape victim to see that there is someone who is even more vulnerable than they are.
It is productive dialogue because it is accurate and allows us to talk about choosing life without bringing up the idea of murder. You can’t be any more polite than that without losing sight of the morality involved.
Jack have you ever tried to counsel women seeking an abortion?
In fact, it is precisely because the victim of rape is responsible for the unborn child that prochoice individuals should not be counselling this woman. The rape victim is in a very fragile state, and the prochoice message of avoiding responsibility is easily accepted by many of these women who will later regret their decision.
Ummm Tyler, I actually have counseled women considering abortion and I guarantee you that in 99% of the cases, calling the decision to abort irresponsible would lead to a broken woman leaving even more broken, downtrodden, and heavy hearted – more than likely into the arms of an abortion “counselor.”
Productive language would be acknowledging her difficult situation, being compassionate, describing the realities of abortion, and finding help. Telling a woman – especially a rape victim!!!!! – that choosing an abortion is “irresponsible” will only ad to her burden which she probably thinks is already too hard to bear.
Have you ever been unexpectedly pregnant, Tyler?
Um no. Rape victims don’t need to be told to act responsibly – they were raped! That is out of their control. In a rape situation, the abortion isn’t about getting out of responsibility so much as it’s usually about erasing a memory or cutting ties to the perp.
I seemed to have touched a nerve Libertybelle. For that I am sorry.
I have not been unexpectedly pregnant. I agree that talking about the choice to abort and whether it was a responsible decision or not would not be the first thing out of my mouth when counselling a woman contemplating abortion. It would come very late in the discussion. First, you must listen and comfort the mother, then present slowly as she feels more secure and comfortable you may begin to show her some options, and then a vision for the future with tons of empathy. Most often it will not even be needed to discuss the issue of responsibility – it is self-evident to most people - mothers and fathers.
The idea of using the language of responsibility is for the public square – not so much for counselling pregnant women. This is important distinction and thanks for pointing it out Libertybelle – by the way, your witness and comments also helped me to understand this idea that choosing life is the responsible decision.
Libertybelle – perhaps you can share with us how you counsel pregnant women.
In a rape situation, the abortion isn’t about getting out of responsibility so much as it’s usually about erasing a memory or cutting ties to the perp.
That is how the prochoice side spins abortion: that having an abortion somehow cuts the ties to the perp or erases the memory of the rape. However, this is not true. An abortion does not achieve either of these two goals.
Sorry, Tyler, it is a sore point. :P A huge problem I’ve been noticing lately is a tendency for pro-lifers to (perhaps unknowingly) use condescending, harmful language when talking to pregnant women. It’s sad to me because I think that by being more compassionate towards the women themselves, we would win more hearts and save more lives. On our side of things, (i.e., not being faced with a crisis pregnancy) it seems to be an easy choice. That’s because everyone’s problems seem and feel and are bigger to them than to other people.
Well, from what I’ve seen, women respond best when you talk to them as if they are responsible adults – which they are. They know how babies are made. And they are mature enough to know, for the most part, what having a baby means. The thing that a lot of pro-lifers seem to forget is that women considering abortion are rational adults. Yes, they’re in a hard place, but they’ll know when they’re being judged and talked down to. Often, they need facts, and they need a compassionate person to say “You know what, this is a hard situation. But here’s the true facts about what your options are. Here’s what we can do to help you.” Because no matter what you say or do, that woman is going to leave and make a decision. And nothing you can do will stop that. What I think they need most is to know the truth, resources to help them choose life, and the knowledge that if they don’t choose life, they will have somewhere to go where they won’t be tut-tutted for being an irresponsible little girl. You know what I’m saying?
That is how the prochoice side spins abortion: that having an abortion somehow cuts the ties to the perp or erases the memory of the rape. However, this is not true. An abortion does not achieve either of these two goals.
Right; exactly. I’m saying that is the motivation, though, not avoiding responsibility, as you seemed to imply (though I may have misunderstood you).
Libertybelle, I think I know what you are saying. I think you are saying you would like to see pregnant women be responsible for the unborn children and choose life but that when they don’t choose life you don’t want to see post-abortive mothers shamed by calling them irresponsible. I agree with this.
I have to say using the language of responsibility has made this an easy discussion to follow and to explain. The prochoice position is both not true and irresponsible.
Our conversation seems to make it clear to me that if we can’t use the language of responsibility our hands are truly tied, and I don’t think we can ever get to the truth of the issue. Context, the situation, and the truth are all important.
“She is responsible because there is natural asymmetrical power relationship between a mother and her unborn child.”
It’s a very good point. Pro-choicers frequently talk as if the unborn are engaging in volitionally unwarranted parasitic activity. To the contrary, those seeking abortions are engaging in volitionally unwarranted predatory activity.
I’m actually in earnest when I say that it would be no significant addition to the moral atrocity of abortion if their “mothers” ate the fetus afterward. Killing a life is one thing; Necrophagy — even cannibalistic necrophagy — is nothing in comparison to shrugging off destruction of life in the womb.
Ben is not a real man.
“No one is calling the rape victim irresponsible, we are calling the choice to abort the unborn child irresponsible. Huge difference and easily explained. Of course the rape victim is not responsible for the rape that has taken place, but they are responsible for the unborn child. All children, born or unborn, require responsible parents. I would think this is a positive and empowering message to be sending to a victim of rape. It allows the rape victim to see that there is someone who is even more vulnerable than they are.”
I think that the same message can be gotten across while avoiding language of “responsibility” (which is going to come across as shaming in my opinion no matter how carefully you try to explain, especially since a pregnancy from rape is directly after an attack when someone is incredibly vulnerable to things like that). A message of safety and compassion for both her and the baby seems like it would be more effective than a message of “you have responsibilities”.
“Jack have you ever tried to counsel women seeking an abortion?”
Yes. Sometimes quite successfully, sometimes not.
“That is how the prochoice side spins abortion: that having an abortion somehow cuts the ties to the perp or erases the memory of the rape. However, this is not true. An abortion does not achieve either of these two goals.”
It may not achieve those goals, but it’s really easy to see how tempting it would be to see it that way, that’s why the exceptions for rape and incest arguments are so persuasive to so many people.
I think that the same message can be gotten across while avoiding language of “responsibility” (which is going to come across as shaming in my opinion no matter how carefully you try to explain, especially since a pregnancy from rape is directly after an attack when someone is incredibly vulnerable to things like that). A message of safety and compassion for both her and the baby seems like it would be more effective than a message of “you have responsibilities”.
===
The messaging is probably best directed at the prochoice movement at large, and the prochoice arguments for having exceptions for rape and incest in any prolife legislation. It should not be used to counsel individual rape victims.
However, people will try to distort any language, even the most benign and helpful language. Some people don’t want to see legal abortion come to an end.
Without using the language of responsibility how do you get across the idea that mothers are responsible for their unborn children despite the circumstances of the conception of their unborn children?
”
” The messaging is probably best directed at the prochoice movement at large, and the prochoice arguments for having exceptions for rape and incest in any prolife legislation. It should not be used to counsel individual rape victims.
However, people will try to distort any language, even the most benign and helpful language. Some people don’t want to see legal abortion come to an end.”
I agree with your second point, not so much the first.
I am having trouble thinking of how to state what I see wrong with this responsibility business when it comes to cases of rape and incest and the like, I just think it sounds awful. Seems like no matter what it’s going to come across as “Raped? Oh well, buck up, you have responsibilities now whether you wanted it or not” no matter how gently it’s stated. I think a focus on more making the victim feel safe and cared for, and helping her see that her baby was an innocent victim in all this like her that should be cared for too, not an evil entity put there by an evil person. Maybe showing some testimonies from those who aborted after rape and regretted it deeply and those who carried to term and didn’t regret it.
I don’t think some people who haven’t been sexually assaulted understand how damaging it can be, and how the drive to stop the pain and forget can be so strong that it can make you do crazy things. I obviously can’t get pregnant, so I never had to deal with a pregnancy resulting from what was done to me, but I do know the horror and willingness to do almost anything to get away from the memories, it’s hard to explain to someone who hasn’t felt that. Like, once when I was seventeen I was tripping hard on acid and tried to cut my own face up with a pocket knife because I look too much like my abuser, luckily I had people around who stopped me and literally had to sit on me because I was out of my mind. That wish to end the pain can cause all kinds of issues, and I don’t think hitting people over the head with how they need to be responsible is going to help that, and putting out that message makes the pro-life movement look out of touch and insensitive in my opinion.
“Without using the language of responsibility how do you get across the idea that mothers are responsible for their unborn children despite the circumstances of the conception of their unborn children?”
I don’t think that should necessarily be the focus. More on humanity and safety for both people, less on responsibility.
I don’t disagree with your emphasis – humanity, compassion, and safety must come first – however, the silence on the issue responsibility from the prolife movement right now is deafening and I don’t think it is helping the prolife movement. Right now, the prochoice side has cornered the market on “responsibility language.” The notion that having an abortion is a responsible choice needs to be challenged and challenged hard.
Sorry that you wanted to cut-up your face when you were on acid. I sure hope that none of your friends wanted to do acid after that. Jack, you have had a rough life. It appears your parents needed to better understand what it means to be responsible parents.
I appreciate you providing me with your perspective as a rape victim – that was very open and courageous of you. I would say you were being responsible, but you might take that the wrong way. So I agree that talking about responsibility to an actual rape victim is most likely completely unnecessary. However, confronting and challenging pro-choice rhetoric is most likely appropriate.
Anyway, I have found that discussing the responsibility of parents in relation to abortion very enlightening and has confirmed in my mind that it is absolutely critical when dealing with prochoice rhetoric and arguments. To not talk about parental responsibility would be abdicating our responsibility to speak the full truth about a mother’s relationship to her unborn child. So no doubt, a prolifer most approach the subject of abortion with caution and compassion and tactfully introduce the truth to those who are hurting. To me, responsibility for those weaker than ourselves is one of the facts about our human condition that every person needs to understand.
Jack, I guess we have to identify who the audience is that we plan on talking to: teens, pre-abortive pregnant women, post-abortive women, rape victims, men etc… But imposing on ourselves a speech ban is probably not a good idea and overly restrictive.
“I don’t disagree with your emphasis – humanity, compassion, and safety must come first – however, the silence on the issue responsibility from the prolife movement right now is deafening and I don’t think it is helping the prolife movement. Right now, the prochoice side has cornered the market on “responsibility language.” The notion that having an abortion is a responsible choice needs to be challenged and challenged hard.”
Are you joking around? Like, literally half the pro-life arguments I’ve heard are people talking about taking responsibility for their actions and for their unplanned children. Seriously, I feel like you live in another dimension or something lol. The only time people aren’t talking about responsibility is when it comes to babies conceived in rape or abuse, and that’s the way I think it should stay, I don’t think that adding the “responsibility language” helps our case at all, and could harm it.
” Sorry that you wanted to cut-up your face when you were on acid. I sure hope that none of your friends wanted to do acid after that. Jack, you have had a rough life. It appears your parents needed to better understand what it means to be responsible parents.”
Lol, my parents needed prison (dad) and mental health care (mom), no speaking of responsibility was going to fix them. Another thing why I think harping on “be responsible” isn’t working too well. Some people are incapable, and need much more to get to a place where they can even listen.
” I appreciate you providing me with your perspective as a rape victim – that was very open and courageous of you. I would say you were being responsible, but you might take that the wrong way. So I agree that talking about responsibility to an actual rape victim is most likely completely unnecessary. However, confronting and challenging pro-choice rhetoric is most likely appropriate.”
Well I don’t like sharing stuff like that at all because I find it humiliating, but I see no other way to get my points across sometimes. You’re purely speaking from a logical viewpoint, which is okay, but some subjects are really emotional and you have to understand that. And for challenging pro-choice rhetoric, most people understand rape is one of the more horrific things someone can go through and are going to react strongly and negatively to people talking about how the victims need to own up to their responsibilities resulting from the attack. I’m seriously surprised one of our resident pro-choicers haven’t chimed in to tell you off yet, for sure.
Well of course they think I’m wrong as well, but I do think that your ideas of how to tackle the issue would push away the “personally pro-life” and “pro-life with exceptions” people.
Yes, many people will “react strongly and negatively to people talking about how the victims need to own up to their responsibilities” but it doesn’t mean they are right to react that way and it doesn’t mean that if it is phrased correctly and said at the right moment that it won’t help both the victim and the unborn child if the victim hears that bit of truth. At some point, the truth is usually spoken so it is all about finding the right words and showing the right amount of concern and sympathy. Furthermore, I need you to be more precise. The responsibility to the unborn child is not due to the attack but due to the very existence of the child – big difference. The responsibility the rape victim mother has and the non-rape victim mother has to the child is the same – no difference. You are noting a distinction where there is none. And I think you are doing this because you have been influenced too much by prochoice rhetoric – making you overly sensitive.
Jack, I would like you to take a step back and reflect on what I have said. I think you are over-reacting and reading way too much into what I have said.
Then again, it could possibly help to convert some of the “personally prolife people” and the “prolife with exceptions” people to a 100% prolife position.
Jack, what arguments convinced you to be 100% prolife?
I blocked out for years the feelings I went through after being raped. After counseling and fighting off the fears of the memories, I do now remember more about being extremely worried and anxious about the possibility of pregnancy and of being relieved when my period started. I also remember asking myself, “What will I do if I am pregnant?”
I think my main fear was that I felt so much shame for being raped (yes, I know this doesn’t make sense but I believe it is very common after a rape, the “what ifs” I had done something different played out over and over) and if I were to be pregnant, I would not have been able to hide the rape. I felt dirty and ruined for life. This was before the time when rape was talked about as much and I don’t remember ever thinking I should go to the police and/or doctor. Hopefully, education has changed some of this but I still believe many victims keep it to themselves for a long time if not forever because of the immediate trauma done.
I don’t remember thinking that if I were pregnant that any baby would be damaged goods because of the circumstances surrounding the conception, though. I do absolutely remember thinking, “If I am pregnant, it is not the baby’s fault” and feeling empathy and protection towards any child that could have existed. I thought about where I could go to hide out if I were pregnant and that I would probably have to give the baby up for adoption. These feelings may come from the fact that I have always been strongly prolife ever since learning about the truth of abortion after seeing photos of aborted children as a child myself and being raised with a respect for life attitude.
I believe that vast majority of woman naturally feel compassion and responsibility for the child in their womb irregardless of how he/she was conceived. If people love and care about mom and raise the bar for her rather than lowering it by recommending and coercing abortion, I believe that natural responsibility will take over in many cases.
Well I don’t like sharing stuff like that at all because I find it humiliating, but I see no other way to get my points across sometimes.
I can totally relate to those feelings of shame and humiliation, Jack. It makes me so sad that you still feel that way when discussing the terrible traumas you went through that you had no control over or responsibility for.
I no longer feel humiliation about what happened to me. It was hard work but I believe you can get to that point as well with the help of caring counselors. It is very empowering and freeing to leave the shame with those it belongs to.
Hugs to Jack and Prax. :( I know.
But Tyler, I just think you don’t get it. I don’t think responsibility language needs to be increased, even on a national level. For some reason, it just comes off as harsh. And I think the most I’ve heard about responsibility has actually come from the pro-life side anyway.
Actually, what I’m saying is that the language of responsibility will probably lead to the post-abortive woman inferring that pro-lifers think of her irresponsible, even if they don’t call her that directly. Words have a huge impact on people, and especially hurting people, so I think the language of responsibility is not very productive either on a personal or national level.
And no one is calling on a ban from using responsibility language – just that that shouldn’t be our focus and it probably doesn’t have much of a productive place in the discourse about abortion. Not using the language doesn’t tie our hands, Tyler. There are plenty of other better phrases and words that can more effectively communicate our message of love and compassion and truth. English is a robust language; I’m sure we can find better words without the harsh, rather judgmental cultural connotations of responsibility.
Hi Libertybelle,
I don’t think using responsibility language is overly harsh, as long as one remembers who is responsible for what, as Praxedes pointed out. Shaming is wrong; however, empowering people and victims to feel responsible is not a bad thing. The goal of responsibility language is to empower people, not shame them. Perhaps, in the past responsibility language was used to shame people and that was wrong, the shaming. but the use of responsibility language doesn’t have to be about this kind of shaming. It can be about empowering people.
I think part of out intention needs to be about trying to change the connotation of the meaning of the word responsibility.
Peace.
Oh I see your point now.
Well, the beauty about humanity and the pro-life movement is that there is a wide, broad spectrum of people and words which means we can each speak to the many facets of abortion.
So go for it, if that works for you. Personally, I still feel as if my point could be more effectively communicated by using other language. :)
Libertybelle, I am not about to restrict myself to strictly talking about responsibility. That would be absurd, futile, and perhaps even-mean spirited. I think you are right to acknowledge that the English language is robust and that we should use all the words available to us that we can. I just want to include the word ‘responsibility’ to that list. I want to reclaim it from prochoicers. I think prochoicers are the people who are shaming rape victims at the moment – because they make it seem that rape victims are irresponsible if they don’t have an abortion. We need to counteract this messaging and point out the shaming being done by the prochoice movement and the population control people. (Even animal activists and eco activists shame people for not being responsible pet owners and stewards of the earth.)
So, I totally agree with everything that you and Jack have said. I am sorry that my concern for rape victims wasn’t clear from the beginning.
” I can totally relate to those feelings of shame and humiliation, Jack. It makes me so sad that you still feel that way when discussing the terrible traumas you went through that you had no control over or responsibility for.”
I think a lot of it was my fault but I realize that’s rather crazy.
” I believe that vast majority of woman naturally feel compassion and responsibility for the child in their womb irregardless of how he/she was conceived. If people love and care about mom and raise the bar for her rather than lowering it by recommending and coercing abortion, I believe that natural responsibility will take over in many cases.”
This exactly.
About the ties to the rapist for the woman who has a baby as a result of rape: something that Jill Stanek should devote a thread to is the fact that impregnated raped women have few legal rights OTHER than that to abort that sever ties to the rapist. In only 17 states does a rapist-father automatically lose paternal rights to a baby sired through rape — and ALL of those require a conviction. He can legally sue to visit the child. He can even legally sue for custody.
Conceived in rape Rebecca Kiessling is working to pass laws that would automatically terminate a rapist-father’s legal rights to visitation or a say in whether or not the baby is placed for adoption. That is at hopeafterrapeconception.org.
Of course, I’ve previously raised the question about whether or not a rapist’s relationship with his child could improve the man’s character. Most of you believe that is unlikely and that it is not worth it to take the chance because a rapist-father could be abusive and would certainly be a poor influence. I posed this question to Rebecca Kiessling and she said, “I doubt it. They’re some of the hardest criminals to rehabilitate.”
Praxedes says:
July 13, 2013 at 1:20 pm
I blocked out for years the feelings I went through after being raped. After counseling and fighting off the fears of the memories, I do now remember more about being extremely worried and anxious about the possibility of pregnancy and of being relieved when my period started.
(Denise) When a girl reaches puberty, she reaches the possibility of being impregnated if she should be raped. When I’ve suggested at least considering contraception for this reason, posters here have absolutely gone bonkers. It might be very relevant to consider the girl’s circumstances and the neighborhood in which she lives. If she is in a low-crime neighborhood, it might be true that possible side effects of contraception would outweigh any benefit from lowering her anxiety in case she is raped. However, the fact is that many teen girls grow up in neighborhoods in which crime is all-too-common. It is also true that rapists tend to target females who are within the primary reproductive age range. For girls growing up in such environments, it seems to me that contraception should be very seriously considered.
I think a responsible adult should talk to a girl at puberty about the possibility of pregnancy through rape and her options. Does she believe that she would have the strength to carry to term and give birth after being sexually attacked? This question, along with the type of neighborhood in which she resides, might help to guide the decision of whether or not to put her on contraception.
It should also be made crystal clear that putting her on contraception does NOT mean that she should be having voluntary partnered sex!!!!!!!!! She should be taught to stay away from situations in which this is likely to happen. Females face psychological as well as physical consequences when we have sexual partners so she should know that it is not a good idea to ever be alone in private with a male. A special effort must be made to develop non-sexual interests and skills in the adolescent girl. She must know that “virgin” is not a bad word!
However, the fact is that many teen girls grow up in neighborhoods in which crime is all-too-common.
You make a great argument for armed Neighborhood Watch guys in crime-ridden areas, Denise.
It’s the rapists that need some fixin’; not the innocent girls.
It’s called Thinking Outside the Box. Try it. You might actually like it.