Kansas Planned Parenthood defies informed consent law
On May 16, an embattled law finally took effect in Kansas that forced abortion clinics to provide a link to the state’s “Woman’s Right to Know” webpage.
This verbiage was mandated to precede the link, all on the abortion clinic’s home page:
The Kansas Department of Health and Environment maintains a website containing information about the development of the unborn child, as well as video of sonogram images of the unborn child at various stages of development. The Kansas Department of Health and Environment’s website can be reached by clicking here. www.womansrighttoknow.org
Three of Kansas’s four abortion clinics have complied, albeit with derogatory preambles or very small print.
But one has not: Planned Parenthood Overland Park, under the auspices of Comprehensive Health of Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid-Missouri. As you can see, neither home page has the required verbiage and link.
Like I mentioned, the other abortion clinics have found creative ways to post the required information. Here’s how plucky Aid for Women added theirs:
And you’ll need a magnifying glass to read the required posting at South Wind Women’s Center:
Same goes for Center for Women’s Health:
At least the latter three obeyed the letter of the law, if not the spirit.
But not Planned Parenthood.
The Kansas Department of Health & Environment is charged with enforcing this law.
Well?
[HT: KansansForLife.wordpress.com]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Aid for Women’s sounds seriously paranoid.
I disagree with the Aid for Women presentation of the required language. It’s no different then any other business stating that a required disclosure isn’t true but they have to provide it or be in violation of the law. It undercuts the disclosure, is unethical and generally just plain sleezy.
In addition, 30 seconds on Google showed me that it passed the Kansas House on a 90-30 vote and the Senate 28-10. The first ‘Yea’ in an alpha listing was John Alcaca, Democrat from District 57. I stopped looking people up given that the first one listed was a Dem, so the entire ‘We are being forced by Republicans..’ concept kind of failed. From the looks of things a few folks crossed party lines both directions based upon either personal beliefs or the content of the law as written.
With disclosures in financial services/banking the regulators often mandate a minimum font size. I do not see from a quick look at the summary of the law on the kslegislature.org site that this was required. Rookie move in my opinion by the Kansas legislature, but the two centers using small font are compliant. With the life of a child having far more value than savings account interest or CD rates, it leaves me stunned that the laws regarding disclosure for ATM fees are significantly more harsh and tightly enforced than a disclosure that could alter the course of an entire families life and end a life.
Planned Parenthood and Aid for Women should both be found in violation of the law as I understand it.
They don’t trust women.
No, they don’t trust women. Otherwise they wouldn’t introduce such stupid laws which will be treated with the contempt they deserve.
Just like those who don’t trust women to have the competence to make a decision in anything less than 72 hours.
Reality,
Really? If you go into a hospital for surgery, you have to be informed of any possible consequences as a result of the surgery–good or bad. It is only logical that women have FULL knowledge of their decision to have an abortion since Planned Parenthood or any other abortion clinic is ONLY interested in a client making the decision to have an abortion. It is the reason for their existence and their primary profit making activity. Whether they render a women infertile or severely harm her or kill her child is their function. If any goes wrong during the abortion, well, they just call 911 (maybe) and ship her off to the hospital for REAL doctors to treat her. The child she carries is a living, whole, distinct person with its own DNA conceived by 2 human parents. Planned or not makes no difference as to the child’s value.
It is not a matter of “not trusting women”. That is such a cliche’ and in fact not a true one. INFORMATION is the goal. And Planned Parenthood is deathly afraid of FULL, TRUTHFUL INFORMATION.
Exactly Vicki!!
Well geez Reality,
If its about the “competence” to make a decision, then a doctor must think you’re a real moron. Because unless its an emergency, it will be longer than 72 hours before you have an elective surgical procedure. He/she will also not expect a decision in less than 72 hours. Your doctor will advise you of the risks, alternatives, discuss the procedure very thoroughly with you, then you will be sent home to think it over, and review literature, and then get back to him/her on your decision. All this despite the fact you may be very determined to have the procedure done. Then you would have to arrange to be scheduled and it make be weeks or months.
It may be a cliche Vicki, but it is true.
What you describe has not been my experience Mary, the latest example for myself being only two weeks ago. While I will be waiting for the elective surgery, all the explanations of risks etc. were conducted and I signed a consent form and fiiled out forms pertaining to my medical history and current status. That is because I knew what I need and had already decided to undergo surgery. The same applies to women who attend an abortion clinic to seek an abortion.
Not quite Reality,
He discussed the risks. I expect that. He had you fill in all the forms, I expect that. You are certain you want your surgery? Fine. But you say you will be waiting. Why is that? Why doesn’t your doctor operate in the 72 hour time frame? For that matter, why can’t you just walk in and demand he operate on you then and there, you know, like in abortion clinics?
You have plenty of time now to consider the risks and alternatives, maybe do a little research of your own, and possibly reconsider. It does happen.
Your doctor must not trust your competence to make a decision Reality.
Yes, quite. Why is that? Are you claiming that non-emergent surgery usually gets down within 72 hours?
As you stated, it is what is known as – for some strange reason – elective surgery. I could have it in a year’s time without any significant negative impacts in the interim. The same does not apply to abortion.
If I had the wherewithal I could ask that the surgery be done immediately. Although given the procedure required they may ask for a few moments to prepare a theatre and align the necessary medical personnel. Abortion is somewhat simpler and less risky – and less costly.
From the moment my condition arose I considered the risks and alternatives. Most women have already decided how they will deal with an unwanted pregnancy if it occurs. The risks and alternatives are not in the same class.
The decision is/was entirely up to me. The only reason for delay is logistics. Logistics are not so much of an impediment for abortion due to its simplicity and lower risk.
I would have thought that you Mary, would well know why major but non-urgent surgery doesn’t occur immediately. Yet there are no manadatory waiting periods ‘in case you change your mind’.
If I ask a dentist to remove a tooth I am not told to wait even 24 hours let alone 72, before that tooth gets pulled.
Abortion is almost invariably more closely comparable to a dental visit than contemplating major surgery.
Reality,
Now your argument was that a woman should not have to wait 72 hours. When she knows she wants her surgery, she should have it. OK, so why can’t you demand the same of your doctor?
Does that indicate he considers you incompetent to decide that you want your surgery? Why can’t you walk in his office and demand then and there he arrange your surgery if not today then tomorrow at the latest? He likely would say Reality, I would really prefer you think over what we discussed and schedule at a later date. Kind of sounds like a waiting period.
I can tell you that yes, major surgery can be performed very quickly when necessary, so that’s not the issue. You’d be surprised how quickly I have seen leaking abdominal aneurysms and cesarean sections rushed to surgery and operated on.
Now abortion is surgery. It has risks. Patients have every right to be advised of these risks. The doctor should know his patient’s medical history. There should be follow up. Why should there be a standard of care for you and another for the abortion patient? Your surgeon isn’t going to operate, skip town, then dump you on the ER doctor or surgeon on call. He or an associate will be responsible for any follow up care. Abortion is the only procedure I know of where you walk in off the street and a doctor, and I use the term loosely, who has never met you and knows nothing about you will operate on you. And you think requiring a 72 hour waiting period is unreasonable?
However, when its YOUR surgery, every ethical standard and precaution is being adhered to.
If you ask a dentist to pull your tooth, you better have a good reason for doing so. If it is infected, keep in mind that dental infections can be dangerous, as well as extremely painful, and this would certainly necessitate your tooth being immediately pulled. If you just want it pulled for non emergent reasons, expect that you will have to wait for an appt., if the dentist even agrees to pull it, which he may not.
How this compares to abortion escapes me.
Comprehensive Health of PP has the link on their homepage, although not the government-mandated script. (‘Verbiage’ is a word that tends to be used only by people who don’t know what it means.)
I stopped looking people up given that the first one listed was a Dem
Five Democrats out of 33 voted for it in the House, and none in the Senate. And so yes, the “special speech rule,” as the ADF would call it, has been forced on the clinics by Republicans.
Because unless its an emergency, it will be longer than 72 hours before you have an elective surgical procedure…If you just want it pulled for non emergent reasons, expect that you will have to wait for an appt., if the dentist even agrees to pull it, which he may not. How this compares to abortion escapes me.
The comparison to abortion is that a first-trimester abortion has about the same risk as having a tooth extracted. And no, there is not a 24-hour wait period for having a tooth extracted in a non-emergent situation. About a year ago I broke a (dead) tooth on a day that my regular dentist wasn’t available. I went to the nearest dentist that had an opening, they said that it was not an emergency but that they recommended extraction, and out it came an hour later, because the oral surgeon across the hallway was available. The reason that you have to wait for an appointment for a non-emergency situation is that your doctor performs medical procedures when it fits his schedule, not yours.
If physicians really thought that people need 24 hours before taking any medical risks, they would require two appointments before writing a prescription for any one of the many medications with potentially dangerous side effects.
LisaC,
Abortion is surgery. Surgery however “minor” comes with risks. When I do procedures for missed abortion, similar to those done for abortion, I take the risks very seriously. I know my patient’s history and risk factors. I have all emergency equipment available. I have seen these women end up in ICU when bleeding got out of control. This is not a “tooth extraction”.
Your situation with the broken tooth hardly compares. The dentist had an opening. Lucky you. If he didn’t you likely would have had to wait until someone did. I’ve been lucky enough to get in as well. My doctor saw me for a bleeding ovarian cyst that had caused me severe pain and debilitation at my job and agreed to operate later that afternoon. I couldn’t take the risk of another incident at work, especially if I was involved in an emergency. However, this was my regular OB, he knew me and had my records and info, and luckily an opening for surgery later that day. However if I had to wait, so be it. It was not emergent.
No LisaC, you have to wait for an appt. because other patients and procedures have been scheduled ahead of you and if you are non emergent, you wait your turn.
No LisaC, you have to wait for an appt. because other patients and procedures have been scheduled ahead of you
Yes, you are correct. The reason that doctors usually do not perform elective surgery on the same day that they meet you is because they already have other patients and procedures scheduled, not because, as you repeatedly allege above, they feel that you need to think it over for a few days.
As I noted above, many prescription medications can send you to the ER, and some can kill you. Do you believe that a doctor should send you home to “consider the risks and alternatives, maybe do a little research of your own, and possibly reconsider” before prescribing a medication? Why or why not?
LisaC,
Doctors will provide you with information, alternatives, and risks and for the purpose of you giving some very serious thought to what you plan to do. Second opinions are encouraged, this gives you time. People have been known to change their minds.
Its considered ethical and safe practice.
My situation was one where serious risk to patients was involved if I had another episode of debilitating pain. Fortunately someone could relieve me that one time, I couldn’t count on that again.
About the medication? Absolutely he/she should. I would encourage everyone to read the warnings and do their own research and not mindlessly accept what they are told. That’s how people end up in the ER and dead.
“OK, so why can’t you demand the same of your doctor?
Does that indicate he considers you incompetent to decide that you want your surgery?” – so you completely ignored what I said about logistics etc? And that even serious surgery isn’t usually emergent?
“He likely would say Reality, I would really prefer you think over what we discussed and schedule at a later date. Kind of sounds like a waiting period” – sheer fantasy. I thought you do or had worked in this area? If you did/had then you would know why seeing a specialist doctor simply decides on the required course of action and that any ‘delays’ are logistical, not some arbitrary ‘waiting period’ to allow a rethink. If surgery is the only remedy and you’ve chosen to see the appropriate medico to get it organised, why would you then rethink it? What would you do instead?
“You’d be surprised how quickly I have seen leaking abdominal aneurysms and cesarean sections rushed to surgery and operated on” – yes, emergency situations. As I keep saying, and you keep conveniently ignoring, much surgery is not quite in that category. Stop making stuff up.
“Now abortion is surgery. It has risks. Patients have every right to be advised of these risks” – yes, and they are. But they have already made up their mind on a course of action. 24 hours is quite adequate if they suddenly have second thoughts. Nor is it at the same level as invasive surgey requiring extended recovery. Let’s face it, you’d make the ‘waiting period’ as long as possible so that things may end up too late or too difficult. That’s what this is all about.
“If you just want it pulled for non emergent reasons, expect that you will have to wait for an appt., if the dentist even agrees to pull it, which he may not” – rubbish, I’ve had it done more than once.
“How this compares to abortion escapes me” – it’s a much closer comparison than major surgery.
Reality,
Please clarify you first statement.
No Reality, delays can be for a number of reasons, including getting a second opinion, at which time the patient may change their mind concerning surgery. Sometimes surgery is not the only solution or there is a questionable diagnosis.
Not making stuff up. We can get a surgical case on if that is what a doctor and patient really want to do. Good grief, that’s nothing next to an aneurysm.
They’ve made up their mind? You know this for a fact…how?
24 hours is adequate. Says who? Reality please, when it comes to surgery you’re clueless. Abortion has its risks, got it? No surgery is trivial.
The dentist has the option to refuse to pull your tooth if there is no justification for doing so. If it is non emergent, you will likely have to wait for an appt. If there is a medical justification, he will likely make room for you.
Good grief Reality, take a shot of Jack Daniels and calm down. Don’t forget to clarify that first point.
For goodness sake, your acting is worse than your script-writing!
Re-read my earlier comments if you require clarification.
In an instance such as a hernia with bowel protrusion, what are the options? In the instance of a deteriorating hip joint, what are the options? In the instance of a cancerous bowel polyp, what are the options?
If you bothered to see a surgeon about having ailments such as these remedied surgically rather than head off to a quack for some sort of ‘alternative therapy’, why would you need more time to think about whether you wished to proceed or not? And since they aren’t emergent, they generally get scheduled for a future date. The required theatre, equipment and personnel may not be available right at that point in time. Most surgeons have consulting days and operating days.
Most of us wouldn’t ask a dentist to pull a tooth if there was no justification. We wouldn’t ask for surgeries such as those I mentioned above unless it were necessary. Women don’t ask for abortions unless they wish to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.
Demands for longer waiting periods for abortion are predicated purely on anti-choice ideology.
Reality,
What are the options? Its assuming you have a correct diagnosis. The patient may seek a second opinion. A hernia with a bowel protrusion might well require immediate surgery.
A cancerous bowel will likely mean surgery as soon as possible and a hip, well hardly life and death.
There are instances where patients will seek the option of a second opinion, and be encouraged to do so. They may well change their minds. Maybe chiropractic therapy, as was my case, will be an effective alternative to surgery. Lots of factors Reality. Chiropractor therapy also spared me from nerve surgery in my right arm. So yes, patients do seek alternatives. Our back surgeon will be the first to encourage you to do so.
Most surgeons have consulting and operating days. Surgeons also don’t operate on patients they know nothing about one half hour after they walk in off the street and who they do no follow up care on.
Why is abortion the exception?
“A hernia with a bowel protrusion might well require immediate surgery” – yes, and that would happen. Otherwise it gets scheduled.
“A cancerous bowel will likely mean surgery as soon as possible” – a cancerous polyp is usually detected during colonoscopy and removed at that time.
“and a hip, well hardly life and death” – exactly. As are a number of surgical procedures. The delays still aren’t caused by people being required to wait 72 hours before saying yes.
“Surgeons also don’t operate on patients they know nothing about one half hour after they walk in off the street and who they do no follow up care on” – then why did you insist people could demnad it be done immediately?
“Why is abortion the exception?” – it isn’t.
Reality,
Concerning the cancerous polyp, that would depend on any spread of the cancer. A colon resection may follow.
No, “delays” are caused by patients seeking second opinions, changing their minds, or seeking alternative treatment. Or simply having to wait to be scheduled. Patients are also advised to consider risks and alternatives during this time, if indeed there are alternatives.
Where did I insist patients can demand to be done immediately? I’m referring to abortion patients who walk in off the street and get operated on.
Yes, abortion is the exception. Under no other circumstances does the doctor do an elective procedure on someone he doesn’t know a half hour after that someone walks in off the street. Not an acceptable standard of care Reality, unless its the abortion patient.
It may, or the removal may be all that is required.
‘Delays’ aren’t caused by any legal demand that patients wait a certain period before giving consent. That’s the point.
I have had dentists undertake elective procedures within 10 minutes of meeting me for the first time. The doctor who did my colonoscopy met me for the first time 10 minutes before he undertook the procedure. Nor did I see him for follow-up. Many folk have the procedures done by medicos they haven’t met in the lead-up.
Reality,
If its a precancerous polyp, yes. If it is cancerous, there is concern about it spreading to the bowel. Likely follow up biopsies and possible surgery.
Whatever reason delays are, they give the patient time to consider risks, alternatives, and seek a second opinion.
About the dentist, well yeah, if its your first appt. with him. The same with the guy who did my root canal. I was referred by my dentist. First time I ever laid eyes on him.
That’s par for the course with colonoscopies. Your doctor refers you, he or you makes the appt., and your doctor receives a report. Also you have to be prepped, and this is ordered by your doctor or the GI clinic, so you aren’t just walking in off the street and having a procedure done. Also, the GI doctor has access to your medical records. Once you are established at the GI clinic as a patient, they will likely remind you of the need for follow up, i.e. that you are due for another colonoscopy.
“Likely follow up biopsies and possible surgery” – not if they excise enough to ensure no cancerous sells are left. Then follow-up colonoscopies at scheduled intervals due to increased risk of bowel cancer having being identified. There is no mandated waiting period in case people wish to change their minds about any of the procedures involved.
“Whatever reason delays are, they give the patient time to consider risks, alternatives, and seek a second opinion” – but nothing mandated. We know that things such as dental may be immediate and why others aren’t.
“you aren’t just walking in off the street and having a procedure done” – neither is a woman who is seeking an abortion.
So why is abortion being subjected to a mandated waiting period when nothing else is.
Reality,
They can’t always be certain they have excised. If the biopsy indicates the cancer spread, surgery will be indicated. No mandated waiting periods, but they will be advised on follow up.
I’m referring to medical procedures and surgery. Dental is an altogether different area. Also, your dentist will follow up with your care. He doesn’t do your dental care, skip town, and dump you on another dentist.
A woman having an abortion walks into the clinic. She may or may not need an appt. She is seeing a doctor for a surgical procedure for the first time. He knows nothing about her. He likely will not be doing her follow up care. If there are complications another doctor will have to follow up.
I’ve already told you unless its an emergency there will be a waiting period before a procedure is done. No ethical surgeon is going to operate on you without discussing risks, alternatives, and then scheduling you later. Its not mandatory but it is considered safe and ethical practice. It also gives the patient time to consider what he has been told and change his mind or get a second opinion.
Why should it be any different for the abortion patient?
“They can’t always be certain they have excised. If the biopsy indicates the cancer spread, surgery will be indicated” – yes it will.
“NO MANDATED WAITING PERIODS, but they will be advised on follow up.”
“I’m referring to medical procedures and surgery. Dental is an altogether different area. Also, your dentist will follow up with your care.” – will he? Job done, toddle off, only go back if another problem arises later. May not be there, see a different dentist. NO MANDATED WAITING PERIODS.
“A woman having an abortion walks into the clinic. She may or may not need an appt. She is seeing a doctor for a surgical procedure for the first time. He knows nothing about her. He likely will not be doing her follow up care. If there are complications another doctor will have to follow up” – you appear to have missed a few steps there Mary.
“I’ve already told you unless its an emergency there will be a waiting period before a procedure is done” – I have said the same thing but there are NO MANDATED WAITING PERIODS.
“No ethical surgeon is going to operate on you without discussing risks, alternatives, and then scheduling you later” – my surgeon offered no alternative to surgery, apart from suffering forever maybe. Delays are due to logistical reasons because there is NO MANDATED WAITING PERIODS.
“Its NOT MANDATORY but it is considered safe and ethical practice. It also gives the patient time to consider what he has been told and change his mind or get a second opinion” – the patient in any situation – surgery, dental or abortion, – can change their mind at any time, including up to the last minute but surgery and dental have NO MANDATED WAITING PERIODS.
“Why should it be any different for the abortion patient?” – indeed.
Reality,
No MANDATED WAITING PERIODS because they aren’t necessary. Its considered ethical and safe practice to give the patient time to consider their risks and alternatives, or to seek a second opinion.
Well, maybe there was no alternative for you and I hope your problem is corrected. However I’m sure he discussed the risks and you still had time to think about it. Whether or not you change your mind or seek a second opinion is another matter. NO MANDATED WAITING PERIOD because your surgeon is practicing ethical and safe standards. He didn’t operate on you a half hour after seeing you for the first time.
Now consider the abortion patient. Do these same standards apply to her? NO.
They are no more necessary for abortion than any other procedure so why the difference.
“He didn’t operate on you a half hour after seeing you for the first time” – no, it was ten minutes, as I previously said.
I saw other personnel prior to that.
The same standards apply to abortion that apply to most other surgical procedures or dental work.
Reality,
I was referring to your surgeon, not your dentist.
No the same standards do not apply to abortion. There are not free standing clinics that you can just walk into and demand a surgical procedure from a doctor you have never met and who knows nothing about you. This is not considered safe and ethical MEDICAL practice. In fact its unheard of, except for abortion.
Stop obfuscating. I can attend a surgical practice/center/hospital and have someone I’ve never, ever seen before undertake a procedure on me ten minutes later. Same goes for dental work. What you keep avoiding is the preamble, the preliminaries. For surgery, as with women seeking abortion, there is a process before the actual procedure takes place. No difference. So why only mandate waiting periods for abortion.
Uh no Reality,
Show up in an emergency room and yes, you will be treated. Show up at the surgery center and tell them you want your hernia repaired and they’ll tell you its a no go.
I have already told you abortion is treated differently than other procedures and how.
Yes, you will have to wait. Because of, as has been mentioned several times, logistical reasons. Not because of any mandated waiting period. There isn’t one. At all. Nor do dentists apply any mandated waiting period. Want that tooth pulled, yes sir.
“I have already told you abortion is treated differently than other procedures and how” – it’s treated differently to some procedures. Just like certain other procedures are treated differently to yet other procedures. None of those have a mandated waiting period. And you’ve *claimed* the ‘how’. Yet you continue to ignore the why, or more importantly, in many cases why not.
If there is no mandated waiting period for any other medical or dental procedure then there is no justifiable basis for a mandated waiting period for abortion.
Reality,
For whatever reason, you are waiting.
Also I’m talking medical, not dental.
Reality, what isn’t registering? I have told you that abortion is the exception when it comes to surgical procedures. Patients are operated on after walking through the door. There is no time for her to consider like there is for other non emergent procedures. Non emergent patients have a period of time to reconsider, review the risks, and seek a second opinion. The abortion patient does not.
Certainly you don’t have a problem with a patient being given time to review and possibly reconsider.
Medical, dental, surgical, abortive – they are all in the same realm. Procedures are sometimes undertaken immediately. Dental work, freezing off or excising various skin ailments, remedial vaccines for certain conditions.
“I have told you that abortion is the exception when it comes to surgical procedures” – and that would be incorrect.
“Patients are operated on after walking through the door” – that’s a less than complete description.
“There is no time for her to consider like there is for other non emergent procedures” – apart from the fact that they have given consideration before they arrive, that still isn’t entirely accurate.
“Non emergent patients have a period of time to reconsider ….. the abortion patient does not” – yes they do.
“Certainly you don’t have a problem with a patient being given time to review and possibly reconsider” – certainly not. But why should a mandated period be forced upon them when it isn’t for other similar circumstances.
No Reality,
Abortion is a medical procedure. It has nothing to do with dentistry.
OK, so tell me, what happens when a patient walks into an abortion clinic?
Consideration before they arrive? So does every patient. If it is non emergent, they will have to wait.
The abortion patient has a chance to reconsider? Well so does the surgical patient. But he/she will still have to wait a period of time.
Why should a period of waiting be forced on any patient? Why can’t I walk into the plastic surgeon’s office and have a facelift right then and there? Because it would not be considered an ethical or safe standard of care.
Denistry is a procedure carried out on our body by people trained in the medical field – with additional training. It is as important and as much a procedure as abortion is. It can have the same negative impacts as most other surgical procedures. Calling someone a dentist is the same as calling someone an oncologist, or a neurologist, or a dermatologist.
You also appear to have missed the other specific medical procedures I mentioned which are carried out immediately.
“But he/she will still have to wait a period of time” – for the umpteenth time, because of logistics, not any legally mandated waiting period.
“Why should a period of waiting be forced on any patient?” – indeed, including those seeking an abortion. It’s not legally mandated in those other cases though is it.
“Why can’t I walk into the plastic surgeon’s office and have a facelift right then and there?” – well it’s not because there is a legally mandated waiting period. Do you not know what ‘logistics’ means?
“Because it would not be considered an ethical or safe standard of care” – balderdash, abortion doctors are as ethical and deliver as safe a standard of care as any other group of practitioners.
Reality,
Let’s stick to the medical area. Abortion and having a tooth filled are not comparable.
Not because of logistics Reality, for the umpteenth time. But to give the patient time to review risks, alternatives, and seek a second opinion. Also, for any medical follow up the patient may need, i.e. clearance by an internist, lab tests, etc.
Not legally mandated but not necessary to do so. It is standard practice.
Reality, I will try to make this simple for you. I can’t walk in and demand a facelift because the surgeon doesn’t know me or my history. He will want to review this info. He will want to get medical clearance if necessary. He may insist I have to stop smoking or he will not operate. He may have concerns that I’m a plastic surgery junkie, for whatever reason I may not be a good candidate. He will take the time to evaluate all this, just as your surgeon did with you. He will discuss risks. He will want me to think this over and get any medical workup I need done. Understand. Its called ethical and safe standard of care.
Balderdash. Operating on a patient you have never met who has walked in off the street and about whom you know absolutely nothing and who you will not be following up on is NOT an ethical and safe standard of care.
I didn’t mention having a tooth filled. Dentistry uses drugs, chemicals and medical knowledge and procedures, just as in abortion and other surgical procedures.
“Not because of logistics Reality, for the umpteenth time” – you are wrong.
“But to give the patient time to review risks, alternatives, and seek a second opinion” – is that why I agreed to go on an immediate call list in case of someone else cancelling. It may well have happened that very day, I wish it had. What is the second opinion for a protruding hernia? Homeopathy? What second opinion do you need for an abortion. “I’m pregnant, I want an abortion” doesn’t have a second opinion that can be offered does it.
“Also, for any medical follow up the patient may need, i.e. clearance by an internist, lab tests, etc” – when and as necessary, same as with abortion.
And still you ignore the surgical procedures I listed which are carried out right there, right then.
Yes, that would be ethical and safe standards for a cosmetic surgeon. And with abortion the necessary processes for that procedure are followed – they are not exactly the same as for cosmetic surgery. You can’t exactly get an abortion every day because you are an ‘abortion junkie’. The patient’s health and associated conditions are part of the abortion process, as is the discussion of risks. The suitable ethical and safe standard of care is delivered.
Tripe. I have told you more than once that I have met doctors and dentists who have carried out procedures on me no more than ten minutes after meeting me for the first time. Nor in some cases did they provide the follow up care. They were provided with the necessary information as they met me and checked with me that it was correct and that I wished to proceed. The same thing happens with some abortions. In some cases the doctor who will perform the abortion is involved in the lead-up work, as we have seen on this site. ‘Crock pot’ anyone? This stuff is standard practice in many areas of medicine.
Reality,
Women walk into abortion clinics for a surgical procedure by a doctor they have never met before and who may not even meet with them until their legs are up in stirrups.
This is not an ethical or acceptable standard of medical care. This would not be considered an acceptable standard of medical care at a free standing surgical center or a hospital, except under emergency circumstances.
The surgeon doesn’t perform a procedure and then skip town and abandon a patient. Can we say Carhart? The staff at abortionist Tiller’s clinic, including the abortionists themselves, didn’t even know how to adequately perform CPR or to accurately report the seriousness of a situation to 911, something schoolchildren know enough to do.
Now there may be exceptions, a woman may go to her own OB’s office for an abortion or she may go to a hospital. I have seen hospital abortions and they meet the same surgical standards as all others.
“This is not an ethical or acceptable standard of medical care” – yet it is for various surgical and dental procedures that I and many other people have had? How does that work? Why is it different?
I’ve had surgery done by doctors who only visit the particular hospital once a month and are then too far away if anything happens. So have others.
The way abortion is undertaken is no different to the way surgical and dental procedures are undertaken in numerous other instances. You are protesting about something which is far from unique.
Reality,
We are talking medical/surgical procedures, got it? Not dentistry. Abortion does not compare to dentistry. BTW, we do dentistry on children and challenged patients at our hospital and the dentist is required to have admitting privileges and physician back up. He is required to provide a history and physical. He cannot just operate on anyone walking in off the street.
I explained to you how the doctors who treated you worked in tandem with your own physician or physicians at the hospital. They have privileges. They meet the hospital criteria. Its a win-win situation for both the surgeon and hospital. They did not dump you on the local ER or the physician on call if you had a problem. Several of our surgeons do the same thing and it is very beneficial to the community and hospital. They can also be contacted and consulted if you develop complications. They follow up on their own patients or have your doctor do so, depending on the surgery that was done. Does nothing register with you?
Reality, people do not walk in and have a surgical procedure done by a doctor who knows nothing about him, got it? You don’t go to an outpatient surgery center and demand they fix your hernia. Not ethical and not safe.
If abortion doesn’t comapre to dentistry then neither does it compare to neurology, gastroenterology or oncology. Yet all these things have much in common. Medical training, medical equipment, medical drugs etc. They are all procedures carried out on our bodies, not our cars.
“I explained to you how the doctors who treated you worked in tandem with your own physician or physicians at the hospital” – did you? That hasn’t always been the case.
And I have pointed out to you that I have had ‘normal’ doctors, in their local practice, undertake surgical procedures on me within ten minutes of meeting me for the first time.
“Reality, people do not walk in and have a surgical procedure done by a doctor who knows nothing about him, got it?” – the same applies with abortion.
The way abortion is undertaken is no different to the way surgical and dental procedures are undertaken in numerous other instances. You are protesting about something which is far from unique.
Reality,
That would have to be the case. Those surgeons could not treat patients at that hospital without being credentialed and having admitting privileges.
What exactly were these “surgical procedures” you refer to?
Also, when your dentist treats you, is he not responsible for your follow up care? Is he available should you need help or your own doctor needs to consult him? Or like Carhart does he just skip town and you are on your own?
Abortion clinics have a different standard Reality. The woman makes an appt, or walks in off the street, is operated on by a “doctor” the clinic employs and who has never met her and will not have any responsibility for her once she leaves. Her own doctor, the ER doctor, or the doctor on call will. Carhart is a classic example. Tiller couldn’t admit or treat his injured patients, just dump them on the local ER.
Not an acceptable and ethical standard of care under any other circumstances.
Perhaps you should be working towards ensuring abortion doctors aren’t denied admitting privileges on spurious or ideological grounds.
I have had skin cancers excised, right there, right then.
I have had a procedure carried out on one of my eyes, right there, right then.
I have had teeth removed, right there, right then.
“Also, when your dentist treats you, is he not responsible for your follow up care? Is he available should you need help or your own doctor needs to consult him?” – not when he relocates to another country the day after carrying out significant dental work.
“Or like Carhart does he just skip town and you are on your own?” – there are other doctors, hospitals etc. If I had had issues after procedures conducted by visiting surgeons they certainly wouldn’t have helicoptered back to see me.
Abortion clinics do not have a unique standard. There’s no point attemting to compare things when there is so much variation between all the fields and you keep leaving out some aspects on one side but not the other.
“is operated on by a “doctor” the clinic employs and who has never met her and will not have any responsibility for her once she leaves” – erxactly like the visiting surgeons I have spoken of.