Sunday Word: “Each day was like torture as he saw and heard the immoral things people did”
God condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and destroyed them by burning them to ashes. He made those cities an example to ungodly people of what is going to happen to them.
Yet, God rescued Lot, a man who had his approval. Lot was distressed by the lifestyle of people who had no principles and lived in sexual freedom. Although he was a man who had God’s approval, he lived among the people of Sodom and Gomorrah. Each day was like torture to him as he saw and heard the immoral things that people did.
Since the Lord did all this, he knows how to rescue godly people when they are tested. He also knows how to hold immoral people for punishment on the day of judgment.
~ II Peter 2:6-9, God’s Word translation
Nov.16, 2014 7:39 am |
Scripture verses |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
A lot of people these days are put off by Lot offering his virgin daughters to be gang-raped by the men of Sodom and Gomorrah, so I’m genuinely curious–Jill, did you try and fail to find a righteous man who didn’t pimp out young girls to be sexually abused, or did you think it wasn’t that big a deal?
I am not a religious person and mean no disrespect to anyone’s religious convictions, but the evidence points to Sodom and Gomorrah being destroyed by an asteroid. Also, the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah may have been greed, gluttony, and disregard for the poor. I couldn’t find any specific reference to homosexuality in my source, but please correct me if I am wrong.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2008/04/01/researchers-asteroid-destroyed-sodom-and-gomorrah/
http://biblehub.com/ezekiel/16-48.htm
Mary, the homosexuality thing comes from the men of Gomorrah demanding that Lot send out two male travelers (who turn out to be angels) visiting his house so they could have sex with them. That’s when Lot offered up his virgin daughters to be gang-raped instead. However, the men rejected his offer and demanded the visiting strangers instead.
Hence, BOOM!
Also, what’s with the kids in the pickle jars? The girl is particularly not apropos, since we know that Lot had no objection to sexual abuse of young girls.
LisaC,
Thank you for the info. One would think Sodom and Gomorrah was one giant gay bathhouse from what I’ve heard said about it.
This account of Sodom and Gomorrah could be open to different cultural and religious interpretations.
I’ve read that some middle Eastern cultures would view this as God’s punishment for the lack of hospitality shown to Lot and his family, as well as the “travelers”. Perhaps that was Sodom and Gomorrah’s sin?
Its been perceived by some faiths as God’s punishment for homosexuality, though the “evils” of Sodom and Gomorrah I saw mentioned in the Bible said nothing about homosexuality. Greed, gluttony, and disregard for the poor were mentioned.
Then there’s ancient alien theorists who think Lot was bargaining with an irate alien.
So what exactly were they being punished for? Or were they even being punished? A random hit by an asteroid can be viewed as divine retribution, or just bad luck. I can’t see where the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were any worse or better than anyone else in the course of history.
I found this on the topic:
http://blog.adw.org/2012/12/the-sin-of-sodom-and-gomorrah-is-not-about-hospitality/
LisaC, you should quit fantasizing about gang-rapes since none occurred.
Hi Prax,
Thank you.
I point out that there will be different perspectives on this account and the religious is certainly one. I’m sure Sodom had its homosexuals like Rome and Greece had theirs. What we view as a despicable act by Lot to turn out his daughters may have been his cultural perspective that hospitality and protection of your guests is foremost. From our cultural and religious perspective this is appalling, maybe not so from his. Also female children may not have been viewed as being of any particular value. We have seen time and again that the horrific abuse of women, often by fathers and husbands, is accepted in certain cultures.
I believe Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by a natural event that people were at a loss to understand or explain. People may have sincerely believed this was God’s wrath. Natural calamities were often explained and accepted as Divine retribution. People may also have wanted to make a “lesson” of Sodom for future generations.
Hi ts,
LisaC is not fantasizing. Lot did indeed offer up his daughters for what would be a gang rape.
No gang rape occured because Lot’s guests stopped him from sending out his daughters.
You can check Prax’s source.
Mary,
LisaC’s assessment that Lot would have actually allowed his daughters to be raped is speculation. I could also speculate that Lot had a plan to help his daughters escape and was merely stalling for time.
“No gang rape occured because Lot’s guests stopped him from sending out his daughters.”
True that no gang rape ever occurred. True that Lot’s guest counseled him against sending his daughters out. But Lot was never a pimp and his daughters getting gang raped. It never happened.
True that Lot’s guest counseled him against sending his daughters out.
False, actually. Lot stepped out of his house and offered his daughters to the crowd, the crowd grew angry and tried to push into the house, the angels pulled Lot back inside and blinded the crowd so they could not see the house. Then, BOOM!
LisaC’s assessment that Lot would have actually allowed his daughters to be raped is speculation.
I merely repeated what was in the text, which is reproduced for your convenience below. You don’t seem to have read it before.
I could also speculate that Lot had a plan to help his daughters escape and was merely stalling for time.
Or you could speculate that Lot thought the men of Sodom were just looking for a spirited game of checkers. But if you’re going to make things up out of thin air, why stop there? You could also speculate that God was angry at Sodom and Gomorrah’s support of abortion with taxpayer monies and that the angels smote the local Planned Parenthood clinic with their very first blow.
One would think Sodom and Gomorrah was one giant gay bathhouse from what I’ve heard said about it.
IIRC (which I might not) the big gay bathhouse image was largely the work of an eleventh-century monk named Peter Damian, who wrote a screed against priests who purportedly got up to all kinds of misconduct. However, throughout the Middle Ages “sodomy” was used to mean any kind of “unnatural” sex act, including heterosexual oral sex or intercourse in any position other than the “missionary” position.
Genesis 19, NRSV
the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house; 5 and they called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, so that we may know them.” 6 Lot went out of the door to the men, shut the door after him, 7 and said, “I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have not known a man; let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please; only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof.” 9 But they replied, “Stand back!” And they said, “This fellow came here as an alien, and he would play the judge! Now we will deal worse with you than with them.” Then they pressed hard against the man Lot, and came near the door to break it down. 10 But the men inside reached out their hands and brought Lot into the house with them, and shut the door.
The thing about checkers is the pawns and the king end up in the same box at the end of the game.
Checkers has pawns and a king?!?
Let the game continue.
LisaC,
You have no faith in the Lord so you would not believe it or understand how Lot’s faith could lead him outside into the crowd in order to protect these visitors. Do you understand how Lot could leave his own health and that of his loved ones vulnerable to the angry crowd but still not fear that any harm will come upon them? pop… (that was the light coming on)
“I merely repeated what was in the text”
Lie. You speculated and added words like pimp and gang rape. Lot went out of the house and closed the door behind him. And Lot addressed the men he was talking to as brothers. It would seem just as likely to me that he was addressing a couple of men and not offering any gang rape; those were your words and speculation..
Hi ts,
As much as I don’t like to discuss religious issues, we have to rely on the documentation. How Lot viewed this incident may be entirely different than how we view it. It may have been a cultural and not a religious perspective. Hospitality and protection of the seeking safety under your roof may have been a motivating factor as much as any religious conviction that he had divine protection
.
Good grief we hear of drug addled mothers selling their children to pimps for drugs. What do you think those children are used for and what horrors they endure? I’m sorry to say that forcing children into sexual abuse and slavery may not have been so unthinkable in Lot’s time either.
What Lot was thinking can only be speculated on, and we can speculate anything we want to give us the ending to the story that we want.
Just be thankful LisaC didn’t use the King James version, as King James was a “Sodomite”.
Mary,
Ughhh.
Do you know if he was a Sodomote till the end or if he repented at some point?
We are all sinners Mary. But for the grace of God there would be no righteous moments at all.
“What Lot was thinking can only be speculated on, and we can speculate anything we want to give us the ending to the story that we want -”
Maybe Mary, but speculating that it ended in a gang rape would take a ‘Lot” of mind bending…cause it didn’t.
LisaC,
All the people of Genesis had was the customs and laws of their time.
They did not have the name of Jesus Christ to call upon.
Hi ts,
I find no evidence that he “repented” or changed his lifestyle in any way.
LisaC didn’t speculate it ended in a gang rape, she documented the incident and its hard to come to any conclusion other than he intended to send his daughters out into a group of crazed men with instructions to the men to do with them as they please, i.e. a gang rape. I think it takes a lot of “mind-bending” to draw any other conclusion from that documentation.
Mary,
If that is what he intended to do then why did he close he close door behind him and why did he address his comments to ‘my brothers’. Doesn’t rape require forced sex? Where in the passage does it speak of the daughters being forced to do anything against their will?
The key word in your phrase above is ‘intentions’. I stand by my statement that you or LisaC would have to do a Lot of mind-bending to convince yourselves that any gang rape actually occurred cause it just didn’t happen; at least in this passage.
Hi ts,
He may have closed the door to protect his guests.
It doesn’t say the daughters willingly offered themselves, does it?
We didn’t say a gang rape occured. Obviously it did not. We argue that Lot offered his daughters up to be gang raped. Sorry ts, but that’s what you call a group of crazed individuals, men or women, forcing sex on other human beings, men or women.
It would seem just as likely to me that he was addressing a couple of men.
A theory that is, alas, belied by the text, which says that “the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man” were gathered outside Lot’s house.
Do you understand how Lot could leave his own health and that of his loved ones vulnerable to the angry crowd but still not fear that any harm will come upon them?
Judaism wouldn’t have lasted long if people thought their faith would magically keep anything bad from happening to them. Nor would Christianity, for that matter.
You probably don’t like the story of the Levite’s concubine very much.
you or LisaC would have to do a Lot of mind-bending to convince yourselves that any gang rape actually occurred cause it just didn’t happen
You’ve clearly done a Lot of mind-bending to convince yourself that either of us said it did.
“Sorry ts, but that’s what you call a group of crazed individuals, men or women, forcing sex on other human beings, men or women.”
Mary,
What part of the text do you use to insinuate that Lot was forcing his daughters to do anything? The reason I ask is because from the text I read the daughters were eager to find a man to have ‘relations’ with in order to carry on their father’s name?
“Since Lot was afraid to stay in Zoar, he and his two daughters went up from Zoar and settled in the hill country, where he lived with his two daughters in a cave. The firstborn said to the younger: “Our father is getting old, and there is not a man in the land to have intercourse with us as is the custom everywhere.” Genesis 19:30-31
What part of the text do you use to insinuate that Lot was forcing his daughters to do anything? The reason I ask is because from the text I read the daughters were eager to find a man to have ‘relations’ with in order to carry on their father’s name?
I had wondered when the character of Lot’s daughters would come up. The daughters were already betrothed at the point that Lot offered use of them to the crowd, and hence were presumably not looking for new men. Lot warned his future sons-in-law about the smiting, but they thought he was joking and did not flee the city. Hence, no men for Lot’s daughters.
“I had wondered when the character of Lot’s daughters would come up.”
LisaC, why did you wonder that?
“God answered him in the dream: Yes, I know you did it with a pure heart. In fact, it was I who kept you from sinning against me; that is why I did not let you touch her.” Genesis 20:6
Genesis 20:6 speaks of Abimelech taking off with Abraham’s wife Sarah but God protected Abimelech from his own devices. God, through his angels, protected Lot from his own devices when he used the angels to draw Lot back into house while Lot was offering his daughters to the crowd.
LisaC, you cannot back up your insinuation of rape because their is no reference in the scripture to Lot’s daughters being coerced to have sex against their will.
God did not let the crowd touch Lot’s daughters because Lot and his daughters were acting with pure hearts.
ts said:
It would seem just as likely to me that he was addressing a couple of men.
LisaC said:
A theory that is, alas, belied by the text, which says that “the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man” were gathered outside Lot’s house.
ts says, that then would include the men betrothed to Lots daughters. Maybe when Lot went out of the house he was offering his daughters to his betrothed.
That is a Lot to take in.
“Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good,
his mercy endures forever.” Psalms 118:1
Praise the Lord Jesus Christ for giving us the gift of God’s Holy Spirit to guide us until the end of times.
ts,
Are my posts that difficult to understand? He offered up his daughters, they did not voluntarily come forward and offer themselves.
Also, finding a man to “have relations” with, their desire to marry and carry on the family line, as was the tradition of their time, is a far cry from gang rape.
Frankly ts, how you connect the two is beyond my comprehension.
Also, LisaC did not “insinuate” rape. She and I are well aware no rape took place. Lot offered up his daughters to be gang raped. I find this as reprehensible as you do
Praxedes: The thing about checkers is the pawns and the king end up in the same box at the end of the game.
:P
In the Bible, wasn’t a woman turned into a pillar of salt, because she was dissatisfied with her Lot?
—–
Why were so many people in the Bible so poor?
–Because there was only one Job.
Jude, an apostle of Christ Jesus who was Jewish from birth, knowledgeable of the scriptures, tells why Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed:
3 I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ …
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
“”Also, LisaC did not “insinuate” rape. She and I are well aware no rape took place. Lot offered up his daughters to be gang raped. I find this as reprehensible as you do”
Mary,
If Lot pffered up his daughters for gang rape then I would agree that would be a reprehensible thing to you. But LisaC said herself that “every” person in the town was part of the crowd outside Lot’s house. That also means that the men that Lot’s daughters were betrothed to were also outside the house. Even if you are your speculation was correct then doesn’t that mean Lot had to addressing them along with anyone else who was in the crowd? In any case there is no mention of his daughters objecting so rape would be incorrect. In fact the daughters speak highly of their loyalty to Lot long after this crowd had dispersed. My interpretation of these scriptures leads me to believe that in a culture like Lot lived in the only thing that protected Lot and his daughters was God’s angels. At least it does not appear to me that there was nobody else who was gonna be able to save them.
Sorry Mary, too many typos above.
Mary,
We agree that pimping and raping are reprehensible.
Hi ts,
Please point to where LisaC says this. I can only find what is said in her documentation: “…the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house..”
Their father was their father. Abused children will be fiercely loyal to the abusive parent. What other option did they have but to stay with him and stand by him?
There is no record of the daughters objecting? There is also no record they offered themselves either. We only know that Lot offered them to the crowd. As a parent, that is unfathomable to me, but so are a lot of things parents have done.
Years ago I read an account, and I’m sorry to say I don’t have a source, of Chinese prostitutes and courtesans who offered themselves to the brutal raping Japanese invaders so as to protect women, grandmothers, and young girls who were seeking shelter. The Japanese troops were on a raping frenzy and no one was spared, that included babies and old people. Now, would we argue these women were not victims of rape because they “willingly” offered themselves?
ts, I respect your religious conviction and you are free to believe whatever you choose.
For the record, I’m not saying that Lot ought to be condemned for offering his daughters to be gang raped, because no one in Lot’s time would have thought his daughters’ consent was relevant. I just don’t quite see how someone today could share that indifference.
In any case there is no mention of his daughters objecting so rape would be incorrect.
The daughters weren’t consulted. They weren’t given a choice. Their consent didn’t matter. Do you sincerely believe that all sexual encounters are consensual unless one person’s explicit objection has been recorded?
In fact the daughters speak highly of their loyalty to Lot long after this crowd had dispersed
You are misreading that passage, but I don’t really want to be the one to explain it to you.
Mary,
LisaC said that in her post on November 20, 2014 at 9:11 pm
“You are misreading that passage, but I don’t really want to be the one to explain it to you.”
lol LisaC… someone who doesn’t even believe in God telling people they are mis-interpretting scripture. Really
Thank you TS,
But LisaC didn’t “say” anything. She quoted her source.
Mary,
I was pointing out that LisaC re-posted that part of the passage in order to make a point that ‘all’ the men of Sodom were outside the house. And I said that would mean the men betrothed to Lots daughters would have been a part of the crowd that Lot was addressing. I didn’t mean to suggest that I heard any audio of her actually saying anything.
TS,
I’m aware you didn’t literally hear her, I meant those were not her own words, they were from her source.
lol LisaC… someone who doesn’t even believe in God telling people they are mis-interpretting scripture. Really
I’ve never said anything about my beliefs on God on this site. Also, I’m not saying that you’re misinterpreting Scripture. I’m just saying that, since you apparently have not figured out how Lot’s daughters solved the dilemma in Genesis 19:31, you might not be comprehending scripture. But I could be wrong.
LisaC, your lack of faith in God is laid bare by your attempt to mock scripture. And yes I can confirm for you that you are wrong.
The decision Lot’s daughters made, as related in Genesis 19:31, is clearly wrong today (at least for now – mores are rapidly changing). However, it should be noted that the Law had not yet been given. That happened during events recorded in the next book of Exodus.
Also, we should remember that Lot’s wife had looked back at the city as they were fleeing its destruction – in direct disobedience to the Lord’s command. If she had still been alive, had been with her family as the Lord intended, that most likely would not have happened.
The consequences of the daughters’ decision went on and on for centuries through the sons they bore – very negative, harmful consequences.
“it should be noted that the Law had not yet been given”
Great point Claire.