Obama: “Responsibility does not end at conception”
Yesterday at the Apostolic Church of God in Chicago, Barack Obama gave a good Father’s Day speech on the responsibility of black men to be good fathers.
Obama once again uttered the strange line, “We need fathers to realize that responsibility does not end at conception.”
When does Obama think that responsibility begins? Is he saying there’s a problem in the black community where 70% of men think they are responsible to impregnate women, but hang on, there’s more to it?…
Whatever. The larger point is Obama admitted once again that conception launches fatherhood. One cannot be a father without a child. Hence, childhood commences at conception. As Fran wrote at Illinois Review:
When will… MSM… hold Obama accountable for blatantly advocating the indiscriminate killing of the unborn babies he’s scolding African-American fathers for abandoning?
What we really need is for Barack Obama to recognize… his responsibility to those babies doesn’t end at conception. As U.S. senator, his responsibility towards them increases. More so if he would become President….
The rest of Obama’s speech was very good, the ad libs particularly (“Any fool can have a child.”), except for the incredibly missing Most Important Point: prevention.
Men can avoid being absentee fathers and women can avoid being single mothers if both will respect themselves and each other enough not to have sex like animals, driven purely by sexual urges. Obama neglected to mention that.
Why in a speech full of the travails of single motherhood and the harmful effects to children raised in fatherless homes was there no mention how to avoid this tragedy in the black culture altogether?
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Is he saying there’s a problem in the black community where 70% of men think they are responsible to impregnate women, but hang on, there’s more to it?
I think we all know that there is.
So African-Americans have “sex like animals, driven purely by sexual urges.”
Jill, I underestimated you. I thought your level of racism was circa-1953 rural Mississippi. That quote takes you back to about 1790, when the uncontrollable sexual urges of the Negro was one of the justifications for slavery, since they were less than human.
You never cease to amaze….
Oh good grief, Bystander, talk about distorting posts. In no part of that statement in Jills post did she ever say that “black men” etc. And you know it.
Reread:
Men can avoid being absentee fathers and women can avoid being single mothers if both will respect themselves and each other enough not to have sex like animals, driven purely by sexual urges.
From my understanding, “men” covers adult male persons of all races and “women” covers adult female persons of all races.
Maybe you have a different understanding.
So African-Americans have “sex like animals, driven purely by sexual urges.”
That line does echo the worst attitudes from the American past regarding black sexuality. Whitey needs a course in sensitivity.
Bethany, I love it when you say, “Oh good grief.” :)
:-D That’s exactly what I thought when I saw bystander’s post, Jill. lol
I’ve got to agree with Bethany on this one, that’s quite the distortion. That was not Jill’s intent at all and I feel that’s pretty obvious reading the post.
However, to the topic at hand. I am actually off to make a post of my own (not on this issue though) so I’ll explain it (hopefully) later. But I do not think there is anything necessarily contradictory about his stance on abortion and his stance that fathers need to be responsible and stick around after learning of the pregnancy.
That line does echo the worst attitudes from the American past regarding black sexuality. Whitey needs a course in sensitivity.
Hal, is it not true to say that if more men and women could respect each other, not acting like animals driven purely by sexual urges, that there would be fewer absentee fathers and fewer single mothers? I think it is very true, for ALL men and women.
Okay, i’ll give Jill the benifit of the doubt on this comment. If it wasn’t directed at African-American men and women, then it’s just wrong, not offensive.
Hal, in your opinion, what is the single most common cause for absentee fathers?
Hal, in your opinion, what is the single most common cause for absentee fathers?
Posted by: Bethany at June 16, 2008 4:51 PM
Bethany. I have no idea. Do you?
Yes, I would think that selfish sexual urges might come into play there, Hal. What say you?
I don’t know about selfish Bethany. Yes, they may be urges but selfish is not a necessary component to choose to have sex at all, whether it leads to children or not.
Dan, I’m not speaking about only having sex. I’m talking about having sex with a woman, and when she becomes pregnant, abandoning her. Wouldn’t you consider that to be just a bit selfish?
Maybe even just a bit animalistic?
Hal, in your opinion, what is the single most common cause for absentee fathers?
I’ll tackle this one: it’s selfish men on booty calls who had no interest whatsoever in fatherhood, but also refused to wear condoms (although the women that were cowed into allowing this are a close second).
Bethany-
Abandonment is complicated for multiple reasons. I doubt the only reason is selfishness, but I do agree that abandonment is ludicrous and any guy who does abandon a girl he’s gotten pregnant deserves having some sense knocked into him. Selfishness is certainly a piece of it I’m sure, at least in most cases, but I’d also add in fear as a huge motivating factor, perhaps family pressure (i.e. parents/family abandons you for making the wrong decision) among others. I don’t even know what I’m saying anymore, I’m just rambling.
But yes, I agree it is selfish, but I dont think selfishness is necessarily the sole motivation.
Bethany 4:38 I believe “the black culture”, as stated in the last line of Jill’s article, generally refers to African-American culture.
Maybe you have a different understanding…
What other sole motivation could there be? If it’s out of fear, it’s fear for himself. It’s worrying about himself over his wife’s feelings, and what his own child will have to endure, not having a father in his/her life. That’s a motivation of selfishness. If it’s pressure from the family, he’s more worried about what they think about him, than his girlfriend or baby. It’s a sole motivation of selfishness…no way around it, in my opinion.
I’ll tackle this one: it’s selfish men on booty calls who had no interest whatsoever in fatherhood, but also refused to wear condoms (although the women that were cowed into allowing this are a close second).
Wow, thank you, Ray…my point exactly. Selfish, animalistic urges.
Bystander, that’s odd. I notice you don’t condemn Obama for beign a racist even though he was targeting black men only in his speech. Is there a reason for that?
Yes, I would think that selfish sexual urges might come into play there, Hal. What say you?
Posted by: Bethany at June 16, 2008 5:06 PM
I don’t like the insinuation that sexual urges are selfish. It’s not the sex that’s necessarily selfish. (not if you’re doing it right anyway)
Lack of responsibility if there is a baby born, however, is selfish, and wrong on many levels.
Wow, thank you, Ray…my point exactly. Selfish, animalistic urges.
I think we draw different conclusions, though, Bethany. I don’t have any problem with the casual sex (if animalistic, all the better), but I condemn doing it without birth control, or even redundant birth control. It follows that to reduce unintended pregnancies and absentee fatherhood, we should spend a LOT more on contraception education, and make it as cheap as possible to obtain, if not free.
I wouldn’t say the SOLE reason for absentee fathers is selfish, sexual urges. It comes into play, yes. But I venture to say that if you’ve never seen a man take responsibility for a child, you wouldn’t know what that looks like. If nobody ever taught you how to take responsibility for your own actions, it’s a lot harder to do so when the time comes. Since many black men are raised in single-parent households, this does seem to be the case. (BTW, that doesn’t excuse the behavior, so don’t think I’m letting absentee fathers off the hook, I am SO NOT!)
I don’t like the insinuation that sexual urges are selfish. It’s not the sex that’s necessarily selfish. (not if you’re doing it right anyway)
I never said that sexual urges were selfish, on their own, Hal. What I said that would be selfish would be for a man to have sex with a woman, then leave her because she was pregnant. That is a selfish sexual urge, because obviously the man only wanted the fun of sex without any responsibility towards the woman or her child. That is animalistic, and exactly what Jill was referring to in her statement, “have sex like animals, driven purely by sexual urges”
If a sexual urge is the only reason you are with a woman, that is obviously selfish, because you are not having sex with her because you LOVE her, you are having sex with her because you get to have sex. That is what we mean by “selfish sexual urges”, and by saying that there needs to be mutual respect among men and women who are having sex. Soley having sex for your own pleasure, not regarding anyone else but yourself and your temporary happiness, is indeed selfish and single mothers result from this type of thing.
Lack of responsibility if there is a baby born, however, is selfish, and wrong on many levels.
And Lack of responsibility if there is a child conceived is selfish and wrong on many levels too, Hal.
Would you say a man who leaves a woman who has conceived his child (and plans to NOT have an abortion) is selfish or unselfish?
I think we draw different conclusions, though, Bethany. I don’t have any problem with the casual sex (if animalistic, all the better), but I condemn doing it without birth control, or even redundant birth control. It follows that to reduce unintended pregnancies and absentee fatherhood, we should spend a LOT more on contraception education, and make it as cheap as possible to obtain, if not free.
Ray, what about the men who used condoms and their girlfriends became pregnant anyway? When the man leaves in that situation, would you consider him selfish, or unselfish?
I wouldn’t say the SOLE reason for absentee fathers is selfish, sexual urges. It comes into play, yes. But I venture to say that if you’ve never seen a man take responsibility for a child, you wouldn’t know what that looks like. If nobody ever taught you how to take responsibility for your own actions, it’s a lot harder to do so when the time comes. Since many black men are raised in single-parent households, this does seem to be the case. (BTW, that doesn’t excuse the behavior, so don’t think I’m letting absentee fathers off the hook, I am SO NOT!)
If you’re never taught to be unselfish, true, you will probably never be anything but selfish.
The urges are still selfishly motivated though regardless of how they were raised.
For instance, if I was raised to believe that stealing was morally acceptable, and I never knew anyone who had not stolen, I would still be considered a thief if I went shoplifting or robbed a bank. It doesn’t matter that I never had any good examples to learn from. See what I mean?
Bethany,
I never said that excused the behavior. I in fact stated that doesn’t mean they’re off the hook. But being a parent is far different than stealing. Good examples and ANY example at all usually increases the likelihood these fathers will be involved in their children’s lives. It’s a cycle.
I know, I totally understand your point, Elizabeth, and I understand that you’re not letting them off the hook. After all, this is an issue that is very personal to you.
The point I am trying to make, is that it is still a “selfish motivation”. Do you see what I’m saying?
selfish:
concerned chiefly or only with yourself and your advantage to the exclusion of others
Selfishness is, at base, the concept and/or practice of concern with one’s own interests in some sort of priority to the interests of others;
concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one’s own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others
Bethany 5:21 Your efforts to distract from Jill’s racist and outrageous remarks directed at African-Americans are pathetic.
Obama’s speech, linked above from the Huffington Post, is excellent. It is too bad that Jill and Bethany are so blinded and poisoned by hate against Obama that they cannot acknowledge the power and truth in his presentation. Their loss.
Ray, what about the men who used condoms and their girlfriends became pregnant anyway? When the man leaves in that situation, would you consider him selfish, or unselfish?
It is easy to answer “selfish,” but that ignores the same set of circumstances that a woman must consider when deciding to abort or not, so I don’t automatically condemn.
Now I have a couple of questions for you all:
1) Is the guy who would leave his girlfriend over an unintended pregnancy really the guy you would want being a father? I would argue that in many cases the answer is no.
2) Given that abortion is a legal option, is it at all selfish of a single mother, abandoned by her inseminating partner, to carry her pregnancy to term, knowing the resulting child will not have a father and that she does not have the resources to give it a well-rounded upbringing? I would argue that in some cases, the answer is yes.
Yeah, I do.
I think every black man should read one of Bill Cosby’s books. His books talk a lot about black men and fatherhood, and I think his words show the importance of fathers in children’s lives. I think a lot of men don’t see themselves as important to a child’s life and this is SO not the case.
Bystander,
Seriously, I think you’re the racist here. If I for a second thought Jill said something even remotely racist, I would have called her on it. Because I have before. Quit twisting words and playing the race card to distract from the actual thread.
Bethany 5:21 Your efforts to distract from Jill’s racist and outrageous remarks directed at African-Americans are pathetic.
Obama’s speech, linked above from the Huffington Post, is excellent. It is too bad that Jill and Bethany are so blinded and poisoned by hate against Obama that they cannot acknowledge the power and truth in his presentation. Their loss.
I see you couldn’t answer the question. That’s what I thought.
Before I make my point, I do agree with Jill’s comments in the posting.
Having said that, there was a debate on newstalk radio (WLS) this morning by a caller who stated that while Obama’s speech was spot-on, it wasn’t the correct venue to give that type of message. The church auditorium was probably filled with godly men – good fathers and husbands to their families. Yet where were the praises for them?
I feel that Obama’s speech was too one-sided, that the focus was about the deadbeat dads and sperm donors that reject responsibility. By all means, make that part of the message but not the whole message for Father’s Day. The opportunity to give the godly men at that church an uplifting message for Father’s Day has now evaporated for another year.
In summary, the ones who should have heard the message typically cannot be found at church.
I hope every year that fathers would receive the same level of favorable attention as moms, but in this particular instance the godly fathers once again got the short end of the stick.
Seriously, I think you’re the racist here. If I for a second thought Jill said something even remotely racist, I would have called her on it. Because I have before. Quit twisting words and playing the race card to distract from the actual thread.
Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella’s Momma) at June 16, 2008 6:04 PM
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Jill engaged in the exact same behavior she rants about, yet she only applies her standards to the “black culture.”
“Men can avoid being absentee fathers and women can avoid being single mothers if both will respect themselves and each other enough not to have sex like animals, driven purely by sexual urges. Obama neglected to mention that.
Why in a speech full of the travails of single motherhood and the harmful effects to children raised in fatherless homes was there no mention how to avoid this tragedy in the black culture altogether?”
I think a lot of men don’t see themselves as important to a child’s life and this is SO not the case.
Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella’s Momma) at June 16, 2008 6:01 PM
It’s a very complicated issue, and you’ve just started to touch on it here, Elizabeth.
In some cases, there are instances of incarceration where the men have no choice – incarceration rates for African Americans are extremely high – and not always justified incarceration.
In other cases, there seems to be a societal definition of fatherhood that many black men may feel they will never be able to achieve – providing a safe environment for a child to start. Look at how many minority youth live in areas where their classmates die of violence. Not being an involved father could be a self-protective mechanism – these guys can’t get really close to anybody on a long term investment basis – not when they feel they can’t protect even themselves.
IN other words, there’s a lot more work to be done than just preaching abstinence or holding shotgun weddings.
Well Laurloo, 6:37 p.m. that would apply to many a negative sermon wouldn’t it? And many preachers/priests/ministers are guilty of the same sin. Obama is less to be criticized though in that almost everyone is aware if the man says Gezhundheit when someone sneezes, it will be repeated around the globe and parsed ad infinitum by all sorts of media. I’m confident that the men in that audience realize Obama (as any presidential candidate does) speaks to a wider audience.
Phylosopher, agree with you that the message Obama gave would undoubtedly circulate to a wider audience. Yet when one prepares a speech, they need to consider the whole audience. Some of the audience does not need to hear another negative message about how fathers are not responsible while they are knocking themselves out working hard both inside and outside the home.
I would have liked the message to commend those who are upstanding fathers. Give them a few words of praise and refreshment – then move on to the group of unresponsible fathers.
The message was just a little too one-sided for me.
Thanks for your comments.
I have a friend from college who got pregnant during our first year by my best friend. My “best friend” turned out to be a sad-sack of a guy butw we all stuck by her and by her decision to go to term (I’m pro-choice, which means both choices are valid).
The “best friend” abandoned her for his band, which didn’t amount to anything, and his job, which amounted to flipping burgers.
What made the difference for her was not pro-life lectures or any mumbo jumbo (she’s pro-choice too), what made the difference was that her family was right there and willing to help her in any way that she needed. It’s a group effort to raise a kid. Having parents who don’t condemn you, and having good flexable education options made all the difference.
She is an accountant now, with a great husband and 2.5 kids. If “pro-life america” would be more pro-life that exists, i think more people would make the decision to carry the fetus to term. But absent any real options or chances for a better life, I honestly don’t blame folks who have abortions.
1) Is the guy who would leave his girlfriend over an unintended pregnancy really the guy you would want being a father? I would argue that in many cases the answer is no.
The real question is “Is this really the guy you want to be having sex with?”
Phylosopher, 6:42 p.m.
I understand what you mean. In the book I am currently reading it also talks of the men feeling like they don’t have anything to offer their children in terms of material things. While THIS is important for a child’s welfare as well, I’m sure many of these children just want their father to BE THERE. Many of these men feel this is just not enough, and feel they are doing their children a favor by staying away. It is a very complicated issue, and will take changing more than one thing to turn things around. We can start by getting rid of the victim mentality that many of these men seem to feed into. Once they realize they CAN be good dads to their children simply by being actively involved in their lives, I have a feeling more men will be willing to step up to the plate. There will always be loser guys out there, but certainly not ALL absentee fathers seek that title.
1) Is the guy who would leave his girlfriend over an unintended pregnancy really the guy you would want being a father? I would argue that in many cases the answer is no.
The real question is “Is this really the guy you want to be having sex with?”
Posted by: mk at June 16, 2008 8:08 PM
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Yes.
I have sex all the time with a guy who doesn’t want to be a father, and if he came home tomorrow with a child I’d leave.
Perhaps it is cynicism, but would Obama be talking this stuff if it wasn’t an attention grabbing, poll driven campaign pitch aimed at the family values crowd? Both sides do these things, so in order to arrive at a candidate’s real priorities we need to examine past statements and voting records. In this regard Obama’s record family issues is conflicted. As an
Illinois senator he voted against legislation requiring school boards to install software to block minor’s access to sexaully explicit material. Then he voted “present” on a bill proposing to restrict the placement of porn stores and strip clubs within 1000 feet of schools, pre-schools, day care facilities and churches. With senators like this is it any wonder that so many kids are being exposed to unhealthy situations? Obama talks “change” but when it comes down to brass tacks and nails, he doesn’t walk the talk.
re: MK – I love the way you play the virgin\whore complex on my friend. A woman really can’t win in your eyes. I wasn’t making a point about the fool she slept with rather I was making a point about the good that can come of it when women have a support system. Reactions like yours are one reason why I don’t blame women for having an abortion, because even when they do go to term folks like you will still treat them like dirt.
Way to make assumptions Yolatango. You have absolutely no idea who you’re talking to, or what you’re talking about.
Laura,
Yes.
*
I have sex all the time with a guy who doesn’t want to be a father, and if he came home tomorrow with a child I’d leave.
Posted by: Laura at June 16, 2008 10:52 PM
lol…if my husband came home pregnant I’d leave too!
Yo,
I have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.
I was responding to something that Ray asked.
We don’t let people come on here and JUST stir up trouble. If you want to converse that’s fine, but good heavens, you just attacked me out of the blue for something I didn’t say, didn’t mean and wasn’t even directed towards your comment.
Slow down, take a deep breath and think before you shoot from the hip and hit “post”.
lol…if my husband came home pregnant I’d leave too!
Posted by: mk at June 17, 2008 6:48 AM
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Are you KIDDING?
That other “pregnant man” pulled down $500,000.00 from a Britsh tabloid for the exclusive pics!
Yo La Tango @ 1:26 AM
Do you aim the gun after you pull the trigger?
“and feel they are doing their children a favor by staying away.”
Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella’s Momma) at June 16, 2008 8:20 PM
You bring up an interesting point – I wonder how many minority guys feel that their mere presence (usually it’s young adult males who are the intended victims of gang violence) endangers a child. Even those not in gangs might fear those “mistaken identity” drive by’s.
And that’s why I specifically said safety, not material things – I don’t think that’s a criteria fro parenthood, but, unfortunately, safety today is often something that can only be bought.
It seems like he’s trying to confuse us by pretending to agree with us.
Not that it’s what he’s doing. But when he uses rhetoric like that it’s… weird.
@Chris Arsenault 2:17pm
Huh? Your comment makes no sense?
Yo la tango…actually, it made perfect sense. Think about it for a while. :)
YLT @ 2:19PM
I said Do you aim the gun after you pull the trigger?
in response to your comment to MK:
A support system is great provided there is responsibility to begin with – which is precisely MK’s point:
The real question is “Is this really the guy you want to be having sex with?”
You characterize such commentary as a play on virgin/whore, but it’s about personal responsibility – that’s my point:
we would hardly think it responsible if someone shot first, then figured out where to aim the gun.
The analogy is applicable to both men and women. It takes two to become pregnant.
So when others are irresponsible with their procreative power, via sex, those who are close to them must enable that person in their irresponsibility?
Yes – there are sad situations out there. I was one of them. I devote a huge amount of resources to address correcting this situation. But I’d also a firm believer in the unadulterated view of “choice” that such decision making means you’re mature enough to understand the consequences of your actions. As you saw – some grow up, some don’t.
I also hold both men and women responsible – if she asks “Where’s the Pampers?” my response is “Where’s the penis?”
All the laws on the books about parenthood, and numerous state agencies attests that we understand these issues. The only problem is, when it comes to abortion the “cheap” solution only spurs on irresponsibility.
Wouldn’t you agree?
Senator Obama doesn’t seem to mind taking a verbal dump on America’s men on any day of the year — even Father’s Day. I somehow doubt that he took women to task on Mother’s Day.
Jill Stanek: “total nutbag… crazy racist”
Jill at Feministe took a swipe at me June 17 for my post, “Obama: ‘Responsibility doesn’t end at conception.'” I am a “nutbag… total nutbag… [and] crazy racist,” and Jill filed her piece under the tags “A**holes, Crazy Conservatives……
Weekend question
Men’s apologist Mark Rudov wrote the following in an interesting July 19 Men News Daily column, “Obama’s baby mamas,” on the speech “misandrist” Barack Obama should have given on Mother’s Day to balance his chastisement of absentee fathers on Father’s…