Pro-life pharmacies
The Washington Post has an encouraging – albeit biased – story today on the developing phenomenon of pro-life pharmacies:
When DMC Pharmacy opens this summer… in Chantilly [VA], the shelves will be stocked with allergy remedies, pain relievers, antiseptic ointments and almost everything else sold in any drugstore. But anyone who wants condoms, birth control pills or the Plan B emergency contraceptive will be turned away.
That’s because the drugstore… will be a “pro-life pharmacy” – meaning, among other things, that it will eschew all contraceptives.
The pharmacy is one of a small but growing number of drugstores around the country that have become the latest front in a conflict pitting patients’ rights against those of health-care workers who assert a “right of conscience” to refuse to provide care or products that they find objectionable….
The pharmacies are emerging at a time when a variety of health-care workers are refusing to perform medical procedures they find objectionable. Fertility doctors have refused to inseminate gay women. Ambulance drivers have refused to transport patients for abortions. Anesthesiologists have refused to assist in sterilizations.
The most common, widely publicized conflicts have involved pharmacists who refuse to fill prescriptions for birth control pills, morning-after pills and other forms of contraception. They say they believe that such methods can cause what amounts to an abortion and that the contraceptives promote promiscuity, divorce, the spread of sexually transmitted diseases and other societal woes….
Pro-“choicers” should have no problem with pharmacies choosing to promote life, right? Wrong. Continued the WP story:
“I’m very, very troubled by this,” said Marcia Greenberger of the National Women’s Law Center…. “Contraception is essential for women’s health. A pharmacy like this is walling off an essential part of health care. That could endanger women’s health.”…
“Rape victims could end up in a pharmacy not understanding this pharmacy will not meet their needs,” Greenberger said.
Aside from the fact Greenberger omitted a word: Contraception is essentially dangerous for women’s health, what is her theoretical rape victim doing wandering to pharmacies instead of seeking medical care? Rape victims should go directly to hospitals.
Blogger Jessica at Feministing, apparently annoyed that I quoted her nonsense in my K-Mart “True Love Waits” post, took the opportunity to take a swipe at little ole “anti-choice nut” moi (! – not quoting here; read her post) while launching on these pharmacies:
Oh this got my blood boiling…. These pharmacies, organized by a group called Pharmacists for Life International, refuse to carry and dispense condoms, birth control pills or emergency contraception. Instead, they sell a whole load of bullsh**.
Tsk. Tsk. Jessica, your anti-choice intolerance is getting the best of you.
[Illustration courtesy of the Austin Chronicle via Feministing]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Why would someone take an ambulance to an abortion?
Will these pharmacies be selling male enhancement drugs?
What happens if the pharmacist has a moral objection to obese people, can they refuse to sell them medicine, like maybe insulin?
What about if they don’t think people should be on antidepressants?
Why don’t they sell birth control pills? I’m not having sex, I don’t even have a boyfriend right now but I still really need my pills. I don’t see why I should have to suffer horrible cramps because someone doesn’t want to sell me a medicine that’s been nothing but helpful to me, I wouldn’t go to that pharmacy any more.
Well actually I don’t care it is there right, just like this:
http://junkfoodscience.blogspot.com/2008/01/no-fat-people-allowed-only-slim-will-be.html
Jess, you wrote: “Why would someone take an ambulance to an abortion?”
I’ve read about cases where a pregnant woman has another problem, say a heart attack, and the docs determine during treatment that her pregnancy increases her risk and should be immediately aborted. In such cases they ambulance her to an abortion doc.
No morning after pills?
(Better not attend McCain’s fundraisers…)
McCain event with fundraiser who joked about rape has been
Shouldn’t they be fired if they’re unwilling to help save a woman’s life? Shouldn’t doctors and paramedics be required to save peoples lives?
This is America. They can sell what they want.
We don’t demand Chinese food restaurants sell burgers and fries because if they don’t they’re discriminating. If you want burgers and fries, go to McDonalds, you want Chinese food, go to a Chinese restaurant. If you want to buy something this pharmacy doesn’t sell, GO TO ANOTHER ONE!
Oh man, now I want some egg rolls.
“I wouldn’t go to that pharmacy any more.”
Posted by: Jess at June 16, 2008 5:53 PM
That’s fine, Jess, if you live in a city or ‘burb where the CVS/Walgreen’s/other drugstores are on every corner. But for rural residents, that isn’t the case. There may only be one pharmacy. Or that may be the only “in network” one near you.
Or imagine if you live in a conservative area where more than one pharmacy subscribes to this unprofessional conduct.
They should be allowed to refuse service to anyone they want, and I think everyone who owns a business should, regardless of how deplorable the reasons. However, for me this is the straw that broke the camel’s back. I no longer consider myself in the “pro-life” camp. I guess I’m just “anti-abortion” (and since abortion is, by definition, the ending of a pregnancy, and, by definition, has not begun until a blastocyst has implanted in the uterine lining, I’m still all about some contraception. I’m glad I got my tubal while the getting was good.)
Elizabeth, I can make egg and avocado sushi. If I leave now I can be there in like, 5 hours?
Yummy, Jess. Especially at 11:30 at night which is when you’ll get here. :)
You live down south right? Eh I’ll find your house. See you at 11:30!
Shouldn’t they be fired if they’re unwilling to help save a woman’s life? Shouldn’t doctors and paramedics be required to save peoples lives?
Posted by: Jess at June 16, 2008 6:07 PM
In these cases, Jess, it looks like the pharmacist and owner are the same person.
The more appropriate question is, should they lose their pharmacist’s license. And the answer to that is yes.
Imagine a pharmacist who believes that high cholesterol is a sign of the sins of gluttony and original sin and should be lowered by diet and exercise and refuses to fill a patient’s prescription for Lipitor. Imagine a pharmacist who believes that manic depression is a character flaw and refuses to dispense the Prozac?
In the case of these (all above examples including those not dispensing BC or EC) independent pharmacists, they would then be perfectly welcome to open clearly labeled “alternative medicine/therapy” stores. And not carrying meds requiring scrips or those OTC ones of which they disapprove.
Definition-
“Pharmacy: A licensed establishment where prescription drugs are filled and dispensed by a pharmacist licensed under the laws of the state where he or she practices.”
If you aren’t going to fill prescriptions, then you aren’t running a pharmacy, and shouldn’t be allowed to use that title on your business.
For instance, by law I’m not allowed to put a sign in my front yard that read “EMERGENCY ROOM,” because I don’t provide emergency medical services.
These “life-promoting” pharmacies will certainly be responsible for a lot of abortions, by denying access to contraceptives.
Under this system, the patient has to hope that the treatment prescribed by the doctor will be carried out by the pharmacist, technician or nurse, because if that person’s “conscience” dictates, for example, they not help someone who is a smoker, obese, “too old”, or otherwise “unworthy”, then the patient must be sacrified.
What if a nurse decides that a child who has Down syndrome, or a person with brain damage is “unworthy” of treatment and medication prescribed by their doctor? Obviously if one can withhold treatment based on one’s personal opinion of who is “worthy” of treatment and whether that treatment is “appropriate” , then every patient is at risk.
May I suggest that anyone in the medical services industry who refuses on the basis of their personal opinion to provide care, drugs,or treatment prescribed or recommended by a physician go into another line of work, where their “conscience” will not put others in harm’s way.
I wonder if these “pharmacies” will be able to obtain liability insurance? I expect them to be sued when their “conscience” compromises reasonable medical care.
Anyone that knows anything about the retail business knows that the fewer items you carry the fewer the sales. I seriously doubt that the local Wal-Mart will be loosing any business to a pharmacy sponsered by the RCC.
Didn’t we already discuss this issue to saturation on an earlier thread? The answer is that because pharmaceuticals including contraceptives and abortifacients can be purchased by mail, we can afford to allow individual pharmacies to opt out of providing them.
As a user of BC for my evil, evil ovaries…I shall make certain I live in an area with a “pro-death” (*rolls eyes*) pharmacy so I can get my medically necessary pills.
kthxbai.
It’s funny… no sad, that a liberal can realize the bias of a liberal story or a conservative story, but yet you seem to only have one frame of insight, the “woe is me, liberal bias this, liberal bias that…”. It’s like you can smell the dump in other people’s pants but fail to realize that a lot of the time you’re carrying a full load yourself.
Just south of where I live is a group of family physicians that began their practices prescribing birth control. Over time they switched to a pro-life practice. No contraceptives, no sterilizations.
At first it was scary not knowing how “business” would be affected. What they didn’t expect was that the demand for prolife doctors was high, so much so that each branched off to open their own individual offices, and one has stopped seeing new patients for years.
Their story is chronicled in the book “Physicians Healed” edited by Cleta Hartman. Inspiring.
Sorry to disagree, SOMG, but if that was the conclusion, it’s wrong. Not all individuals are able to use mail order, mailorder only accepts credit/debit – that disenfranchises those who’ve claimed bankruptcy or others who may not have credit cards. The homeless may not have mailing addresses. Not all insurance plans will have mail order companies in their network.
And in the case of EC, that reasoning is ludicrous. There’s a reason it’s called emergency contraception, right?
It’s also a really bad precedent that reaches across all fields of medicine and other professions that require licensure or certification.
How long until it’s illegal to ovulate?
Sorry Elizabeth I can’t come over tonight but I’ll write something on your facebook wall : )
SoMG, 6:55: Didn’t we already discuss this issue to saturation on an earlier thread? The answer is that because pharmaceuticals including contraceptives and abortifacients can be purchased by mail, we can afford to allow individual pharmacies to opt out of providing them.
Yes. (You and I did,) here:
June 13, 2008
Pro-aborts try to remake Obama as soft on abortion
Ehhh. I don’t get the fuss. Its Tampa for Gods sake, not Bluegrass Junction Nebraska or something. There are probably 100 chain pharmacies within a 10 mile radius.
If they choose not to sell any contraception, more power to ’em… so long as they obey the law and respectfully turn the patient in the direction of a pharmacy that will honor their prescription. If they’re using this as a platform to lecture any women who come in there for their choices, they can and should get their pants sued off.
Turn on the Encore channel they’re playing the movie 9 Months.
It’s funny… no sad, that a liberal can realize the bias of a liberal story or a conservative story, but yet you seem to only have one frame of insight, the “woe is me, liberal bias this, liberal bias that…”. It’s like you can smell the dump in other people’s pants but fail to realize that a lot of the time you’re carrying a full load yourself.
Posted by: Yo La Tango at June 16, 2008 7:09 PM
Who are you directing that remark to? (It’s pretty gross too.Ick!)
Just south of where I live is a group of family physicians that began their practices prescribing birth control. Over time they switched to a pro-life practice. No contraceptives, no sterilizations.
At first it was scary not knowing how “business” would be affected. What they didn’t expect was that the demand for prolife doctors was high, so much so that each branched off to open their own individual offices, and one has stopped seeing new patients for years.
Their story is chronicled in the book “Physicians Healed” edited by Cleta Hartman. Inspiring.
Posted by: carder at June 16, 2008 7:09 PM
……………………….
Obviously they don’t do deliveries if there is a waiting list for new patients. Apparently they leave the OB/GYN stuff up to doctors specializing in such.
I guess writing on my facebook wall will suffice for now Jess. :)
phylosopher, you wrote: “And in the case of EC, that reasoning is ludicrous. There’s a reason it’s called emergency contraception, right?”
Well, you can take your EC up to a week or so after sex and it’ll work just fine, so that part of doing it by mail order is OK. (Methotrexate will also work for up to a month, that would technically be an abortion, but you wouldn’t notice it it would come out in the next menses.)
You wrote: “Not all individuals are able to use mail order, mailorder only accepts credit/debit – that disenfranchises those who’ve claimed bankruptcy or others who may not have credit cards. The homeless may not have mailing addresses.”
I hadn’t thought of that. Well I am perfectly comfortable forcing pharmacists, especially those with monopoly power, to provide the full range of pharmaceutical products as a condition of their professional licences. It’s not like drafting someone into the army at all (“Truthseeker” had brought this up because in both cases the government is forcing someone to participate in killing) because the draftee is not a licenced health-care professional. Holding a professional licence means giving up some of your autonomy. Maybe as you say in some places it will be necessary, after all.
One thing I think we can all agree on: we cannot have ambulance drivers deciding whether or not to drive patients where their doctors say they should be driven.
Nope, I disagree. As a matter of fact, that was the only thing about the article I agreed with. As someone who knows abortion to be the taking of another human life, I would not be able to transport someone to a place for the purpose of killing her baby. If my best friend asked me to drive her to a clinic, she would have to find another ride, after I did everything in my power to deter her from taking such an action.
It’s been awhile since I read the book.
Actually, Sally, the three that I remember that are in the book and are local, they all deliver babies. Only one has discontinued delivering babies. One still does deliveries along with another doc or two in his office, and the other doc still catches babies.
A close friend of mine is due with baby #7, and one of the docs I mentioned is the lucky practitioner who gets to monitor her pregnancy. Since she’s self pay, she can’t afford a hospital birth, so she’s homebirthing again. Her doc, as much as he would like to, is prevented from delivering babies in patients’ homes.
And I forgot to mention that they teach NFP in addition to their regular workload.
And once again, I find myself too pro-choice for the pro-choice people, and not pro-life enough for the lifers. I could never get elected if I ran for office. ;_;
@Xalisae: I’d vote for you. :)
*too pro-life
When I was in high school I worked a lifeguard, and because I was CPR certified along with about 5 other certifications, I was REQUIRED BY LAW to do my best to save someone who was injured, even if I was off duty. I could have been walking home from school and if I saw someone bleeding by the side of the road, I HAD to help no matter what. I might not have been able to save the person, but I was required to help to the best of my training and ability.
If I didn’t help, I could have been sued or gone to jail, because my level of training came with the responsibility that I would help someone in need.
Now, if a 16-year-old with CPR certification is required to help someone in need, I see no reason why doctors and pharmacists should be exempt from doling out medication or performing surgeries as needed by the patient. If I didn’t want to help someone, I could have refused to get certified, the same way a potential pharmacist or a doctor could have dropped out of school and failed to get their certification.
Thank you, Rae. That’s at least a little encouraging. ;P
Xalisae, you wrote: “As someone who knows abortion to be the taking of another human life, I would not be able to transport someone to a place for the purpose of killing her baby.”
Are you an ambulance driver?
If yes, does your employer know that there are possible circumstances under which you would refuse to drive a patient where her attending physician ordered you to drive her? Your employer needs, and is entitled, to know this about you, if you work as an ambulance driver.
Does your employer know that there are possible circumstances under which you would consider it appropriate to talk to a passenger under medical care about your religion?
@SoMG: Pretty sure Xalisae is atheist.
@Xalisae: I’m a PL agnostic who is vaguely liberal on most things except the abortion issue. :)
SoMG 6:01pm
You are saying that a pregnant woman has a heart attack and is taken to a hospital where her doctors decide the best course of treatment is an abortion. So this said woman is taken by an ambulance to an abortion clinic to have her baby killed??
Enlighten me.
No, I am not an ambulance driver, but if I was, and was ever asked to take someone to such a place for such a purpose, I would quit right there. AND, I might not be an ambulance driver, but I will tell you something that I AM:
I am an ATHEIST, and I am utterly sick and oh so tired of people ASSUMING things about my belief system and morality just because I happen to think that killing babies in the womb should not be allowed by law.
And thank you once again, Rae! *hearts*
I think a prolife pharmacy is an awesome idea.
I will meet you there Elizabeth. :)
Imagine these pharmacies opened up next door from an ordinary pharmacy, thereby giving customers a choice. Pro-aborts would still whine about it because the mere existence of a pro-life pharmacy suggests in the pro-aborts mind that they’re doing something wrong. And pro-aborts don’t stand for that. And in these circumstances we see the will of pro-aborts being forced upon the private business owner who has the right to sell or not to sell whatever he wants.
To use a pro-abort argument… if you don’t like it, don’t use it.
Rae: my best friend in high school was the daughter of two hippies who listened to NPR non-stop. We used to have disagreements about politics, but the debate was fun, and I think it really helped to open a very narrow world view I had back then, and made us closer. :)
Carla I will try. Start by answering this question: Under what circumstances would someone ride an ambulance to an abortion provider?
back to the topic at hand though…I personally don’t like it much, but I’m glad they have the right to do it, and it doesn’t really affect me anyway, because I’ve had myself altered, so I don’t care all that much. It would be great though, if they had a working relationship with another pharmacy close by to whom they refered women seeking medications to which they objected.
back to the topic at hand though…I personally don’t like it much, but I’m glad they have the right to do it, and it doesn’t really affect me anyway, because I’ve had myself altered, so I don’t care all that much. It would be great though, if they had a working relationship with another pharmacy close by to whom they refered women seeking medications to which they objected.
Xalisae, you wrote: “No, I am not an ambulance driver, but if I was, and was ever asked to take someone to such a place for such a purpose, I would quit right there. ”
Wow. I’m impressed. Have you thought about the fact that if you did that, and the patient died as a result, you would go to prison for manslaughter, (unless you are a member of a wealthy family), and be unemployable and destitute for the rest of your life?
In such cases they ambulance her to an abortion doc.
Posted by: SoMG at June 16, 2008 6:01 PM
Really. I DONT THINK SO! She would be sent to the ob/gyn ward or directly to surgery and the doctor brought in or the doctor on call would see her. Such situations would so rare as to happen almost never.
One thing I think we can all agree on: we cannot have ambulance drivers deciding whether or not to drive patients where their doctors say they should be driven.
Posted by: SoMG at June 16, 2008 8:22 PM
Depends on where that is. I wouldn’t be driving to Tiller’s clinic. Or yours.
Edyt: your post at 8:37pm ignores a very important consideration.First of all, someone who has CPR certification is going to try to help a person in distress to SURVIVE. However, in the case of the pharmacist, you are asking the professional to kill one of the patients and therefore to do harm. There’s a world of difference in intent between the two acts.
I am an ATHEIST, and I am utterly sick and oh so tired of people ASSUMING things about my belief system and morality just because I happen to think that killing babies in the womb should not be allowed by law.
Posted by: xalisae at June 16, 2008 8:52 PM
Maybe you could put “atheist” in your moniker while posting here on Jill’s.
For once, I agree with Patricia. Took the words right out of my mouth, as a matter of fact.
Methotrexate will also work for up to a month, that would technically be an abortion, but you wouldn’t notice it it would come out in the next menses.
posted by SoMG
What IT? You mean the dead baby? Let’s call a spade a spade here, shall we, SoMG.
@X: I love NPR! I work at 3M and all the crazy scientists worship the ground NPR works on and it’s always on in the labs! :-p
Xalisae: What evidence do you have for the proposition: There is no God? I have never seen convincing evidence for this proposition.
Yeah, it’s really not as bad as most conservatives think, and there was a UCLA study conducted to back that up. (although the least biased was still found to be Fox News, but the mild skew that exists isn’t as bad as everyone makes it out to be, and that’s on both sides. oh, how I do love scientific studies!)
Edyt: your post at 8:37pm ignores a very important consideration.First of all, someone who has CPR certification is going to try to help a person in distress to SURVIVE. However, in the case of the pharmacist, you are asking the professional to kill one of the patients and therefore to do harm. There’s a world of difference in intent between the two acts.
1. There’s no proof the pill stops implantation. The entire premise for denying a woman BC is baseless.
2. The proper way to conduct CPR requires breaking a person’s ribs. Sometimes you have to do damage to help someone.
Phylo:
You know what’s really unprofessional?
Providing drugs to woman for the purpose of killing her own children – now that’s not only unprofessional, it’s blasphemous, evil, heinous, Nazi-like, heartless, unrighteous, dark, self-seeking, hateful, and downright mean.
You know that word that you Liberals use to trump all other words, “Professional”. I mean, we are supposed to bow in reverence and fear at its pronouncement. Professional, now that’s a whopper word, the abracadabra word of post-modernism.
Well to you it trumps, righteousness, and love (agape), and faithfulness, and selflessness, joy and peace and patience, gentleness, kindness, goodness and self-control.
Sorry, got to go bow to my “Professional” statue in my office now before I do something right but unprofessional. May the career gods have mercy on me and never say, “you’re fired”. May Liberals please never, ever call me unprofessional, I just couldn’t handle it.
Tell me something? How unprofessional was it for Jesus to heal on the Sabbath?
May God never be “Un-Professional”. Can you hear me wretch?
X, I often feel like I’m in a weird limbo-land between the two as well. You’re not alone. =)
Cranky Catholic,
I like your comment!
SoMG,
Uh, never?!
But I seem to recall that ambulances have left and will continue to leave abortion clinics and rush bleeding women to hospitals for life saving treatment.
SoMG 6:01pm
You are saying that a pregnant woman has a heart attack and is taken to a hospital where her doctors decide the best course of treatment is an abortion. So this said woman is taken by an ambulance to an abortion clinic to have her baby killed??
Enlighten me.
Posted by: Carla at June 16, 2008 8:49 PM
…………………………
Hi Carla!
You cannot be completely unaware of the stress put upon a woman’s body by pregnancy. Yes? No?
A few months ago a young woman I know of died of a heart attack during labor. She had a previously undetected anorism.
Imagine the anorism being detected much much earlier in pregnancy. Imagine that it is repairable and the young woman’s life can be preserved as well as her ability to gestate and deliver a living baby/babies in the future. But only if she aborts now and has her anorism repaired and is given the opportunity for her body to heal.
Do you prefer the reality of a dead young woman and a dead fetus to her sustained life and the possibility of her creating future life/lives?
I can’t imagine you saying that you do.
SoMG: Abortion is allowed to exist in the universe. That strikes me as being against the odds of a god. I do find it somewhat funny to think I have the evidence to disprove god tucked away in my back pocket or something though. If anyone had that, I’m sure we’d never hear the end of it. But, after reading the bible for a couple years every day, I decided it had enough flaws to justify disbelief, at least for me. But, other than letting you know that I am an atheist so that you might stop your gross assumptions, I feel that there is really no reason for us to be having this conversation. I don’t try and wouldn’t anticipate converting anyone to atheism just as I’d appreciate those of a religious inclination not to try or expect the reverse with me, and I can’t help but feel you’re trying to change the subject so that perhaps I might be attacked by others in the pro-life corner. Divide and conquer? How cute.
@X: Are you on facebook by any chance?
Edyt,
This is America and they don’t have to sell anything they don’t want to. Some places don’t sell magazines with half-naked women on them and Wal-Mart only sells edited CD’s. If you want the other stuff, go to a place that sells it. That’s how it works. They have a right not to sell what they don’t want to sell. Like Amanda said, it’s in Tampa, there’s a freaking CVS on every corner that I’m sure would love to make money.
Hi Sally!!!
I prefer the reality that a doctor with a pregnant woman in his care would do everything in his power to save both the life of the mother and the life of the baby. Their life and health is a priority to him as a doctor.
There are high risk pregnancies and doctors who specialize in their care. There are doctors who save the lives of BOTH of their patients.
Did the baby live, Sally?
2. The proper way to conduct CPR requires breaking a person’s ribs. Sometimes you have to do damage to help someone.
Posted by: Edyt at June 16, 2008 9:25 PM
WHAT? REALLY?
x : 9:38: I don’t try and wouldn’t anticipate converting anyone to atheism just as I’d appreciate those of a religious inclination not to try or expect the reverse with me, and I can’t help but feel you’re trying to change the subject so that perhaps I might be attacked by others in the pro-life corner. Divide and conquer? How cute.
Very insightful of you! Way to go!
Being pro-life is being anti-abortion, and very cool.
Don’t forget! : )
Rae: yep. xalisae@gmail.com
@Sally: That would be “aneurysm”.
Hi again Sally,
I admire this Mommy very much.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/jun/08061303.html
Janet, yeah – the pressure you’re supposed to apply just under the sternum is enough to break many people’s ribs. If you feel right under your sternum, you can feel your ribs starting right in that area, and those are your floating ribs – easier to break since they’re not grounded to the sternum. But usually people don’t complain about broken ribs if they’re alive. =)
The oldest woman in the world just died today at 115 years old. She died from stomach cancer (she probably ate meat). Doctors say her brain was as healthy as that of a sixty year old.
Patricia, you wrote: “You mean the dead baby?”
I don’t mind that phrase. But you should be aware that according to strict legal definition a person is a fetus until birth, at which point he or she ceases to be a fetus and becomes a baby. But I am quite comfortable with the idea that abortion is killing a person. I believe that if you’re a person and you are located inside another person’s body, then that other person is entitled to kill and expel you. Because you’re located inside HER body. I have no problem serving as the executor of her decision.
Patricia, can you think of any circumstances under which a woman might need to ride in an ambulance to an abortion provider?
How about this: you’re a general surgeon doing a trauma rotation and your patient is a pregnant primagravida in her early third trimester who’s been shot in the belly and the ultrasound says the bullet partially severed the umbilical cord and also ripped through the bulk of the placenta (which is highly vascularized, like liver) and both the fetus and the patient are losing blood pressure through it. Your patient tearfully begs you not to sterilize her so you want to avoid hysterectomy. This could be a job for Dr. Tiller or someone like him. (Who else are you going to call with something like this?) Now your ambulance driver, xalisae, refuses to transport your patient and threatens to walk off the job. You finish the story.
Breaking news!!
The “Whitey” tape has FINALLY been released!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZi6U811hxE
xalisae, you wrote: “But, after reading the bible for a couple years every day, I decided it had enough flaws to justify disbelief, at least for me. ”
That supports the proposition: The Bible is not God’s book. But does it support the proposition “There is no God”?
You wrote: “Abortion is allowed to exist in the universe. That strikes me as being against the odds of a god.”
That supports the proposition: If there is a god, it allows evil (if you think abortion is evil, which you seem to). But again, does it really support the proposition There is no god?
And you are mistaken xalisae, I’m not trying to change the subject or anything like that. I am genuinely curious about athiesm and therefore about athiests. I do not understand what makes them so certain that there is no god (or God), considering the total absence of evidence in support of that proposition. I have asked many athiests about this but none so far has been able to explain in plain terms why (s)he was so sure that athiesm is right.
Sally 9:36PM
Aneurysms, both cerebral and aortic, will often unfortunately go undetected until they rupture,pregnancy or not.
Perfectly healthy and active young people have died suddenly and unexpectedly from aneurysms, cerebral and aortic. This happened to actor John Ritter who was unaware he had an aortic aneurysm and died suddenly. The son of my mother’s co-worker died of a ruptured aortic aneurysm at age 5! Almost unheard of.
If this had been discovered in the pregnant woman you mentioned life saving surgery would have been performed, pregnancy or not. Every effort would be made to save mother and child but the mother’s life would certainly not be sacrificed.
Pregnancy didn’t cause it, labor and delivery may have caused it to rupture, such as athletic activities have caused aneurysms to rupture, sometimes they have ruptured spontaneously when doing nothing in particular. I believe a well known singer died in her sleep recently of an undiagnosed cerebral aneurysm.
With your friend it likely would have eventually ruptured no matter what unless it was diagnosed before rupture, which sadly isn’t always the case.
Carla:9:49: I admire this Mommy very much.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/jun/08061303.html
2005 Polish Volleyball Champion Sacrificed Her Life for Unborn Child
TANROW, June 13, 2008 (CWNews.com/LifeSiteNews.com)
“- A Polish volleyball star who was buried on June 9 is being compared by local Catholics to Blessed Gianna Beretta Molla because of her heroic sacrifice for her unborn child……”
Thanks for bringing this story to our attention.
Tho I am but a sinfull adulteresse, I at leaste had the decency not to abourte my beautifull daughter Pearl, yea verily.
I was most shamed by my fellow citizense for committing adultery and not hiding the evidence (the pregnancie), while the no-goode father got off free while I was rejectede and treated like a commun criminale.
HeStEr PrYnNe,
YoU ShOuLd RePeNt 4 Ur SiNnzZz!
:throws Bible:
SOMG 10:05PM
Please, tell me you’re not serious.
This is a warped attempt at humor, right?
HiLaRy FaYe, thou art an evile woman. Be offe with ye. I have paide in fulle for my sins. I shall forever be punishede for my indiscretion.
I OnLy SpEaK Da TrUtHhhhh HeStEr PrYnNe!
Mary, no, my post of 10:05 PM was meant quite seriously. Both the justification of abortion and the hypothetical placental trauma case. Can you be a little more specific? What are you disagreeing with?
The board has been infiltrated by typing lolcats??
=)
http://www.heroicsalmonleap.net/images/IHasAFlavor.jpg
AmAnDa,
WhAt U MeEn, LoLCaTz?? I DeW NoT KnOw oF tHeSe LoLCaTz! DeY MuSt BE a DeVuL CrEaTiOn!
Thou art a younge foole Goodie FaYe. I shalt pray for thee.
no no Hilary. You can’t throw a Bible at a kitten. Therefore it is not a devil creation. Kittens come pre-filled with Christ Love.
U R ThA FoOl, HeStEr! I DiDnT HaVE a BaBeH By A MaN wHo Iz AlReAdY MaRrIeD!
Oh, OkAyZ AmAnDa! I LiKe KiTtEhs ThEn!
They should be allowed to refuse service to anyone they want, and I think everyone who owns a business should, regardless of how deplorable the reasons. However, for me this is the straw that broke the camel’s back. I no longer consider myself in the “pro-life” camp. I guess I’m just “anti-abortion” (and since abortion is, by definition, the ending of a pregnancy, and, by definition, has not begun until a blastocyst has implanted in the uterine lining, I’m still all about some contraception. I’m glad I got my tubal while the getting was good.)
Posted by: xalisae at June 16, 2008 6:16 PM
If you want BC, there’s a K-MART in the same strip mall as this pharmacy that won’t sell BC. No harm done.
No Goodie FaYe…I hadde an adulterous affaire with the handsome pastor of our village, yea verily. I was the onne who was wed.
Sadley I had to take alle the blame for the affaire for the pastor was a cowarde and a foole and threw me to the wolves insteade of admittinge his owne part in the affaire.
Woe is me ande my poore decisionse as they badly affectede my daughter, Pearl, who I gave life to as she did not deserve to be punishede by death because of my lack of decency and faithfullnesse, yea verily.
At LeAsT u DiDn’T LoSe Ur ViRgInITeE 2 Ur GaY BoYfRiEnD AnD ThEn GeT KnOcKeD uP By HiM! A GuRl I KnOw DiD DaT!
AnD ThEn I CrAsHeD Ma’ CaR AnD JeSuS FeLl oN Ma’ FaCe! AhHHHHHH!
SOMG,
This is worse than I thought.
A hemorrhaging patient like this would be immediately rushed to surgery, the surgeons and support staff wouldn’t be standing around with their fingers up their noses.
Who else would you call for a situation like this? How about a staff OB/GYN? They are certainly on staff at trauma centers since pregnant women do get into accidents, and are victims of shootings and abuse. Every effort would be made to preserve the life of the mother, and if possible the child. Every effort would also be made to preserve her fertility.
Do you think any trauma surgeon in his/her right mind would send a hemorrhaging patient to Tiller, who isn’t even credentialled in OB/GYN and has a staff that doesn’t have brains enough to call 911 when a patient collapses and needs CPR?
SOMG, really give this some deep thought. Its a real no-brainer once you realize trauma centers are prepared to handle these situations, they don’t pack up hemorrhaging patients and send them to some uncredentialled hack!
I promise you any ambulance driver would refuse to transport her, he/she would think you were frigging nuts for suggesting it!
Isaiah 37:3
And they said unto him, Thus saith Hezekiah, This day is a day of trouble, and of rebuke, and of blasphemy: for the children are come to the birth, and there is not strength to bring forth.
Mary:
Your posts are wonderful. Just think, a guy like SoMG being whipped by a girl. So, so funny. SoMG, if my daughter, also a Mary, (there’s power in that name) was posting she’d put a hurtin’ on ya.
Elizabeth:
Great taking a stand against abortion over the counter. Perhaps someone could research and come up with a list of pro-life pharmacies all over the country. We’d see how fast the pro-abort pharmacies would act when they lost 45% of their business. They’d change their tunes in a heartbeat and Phylo would then really understand the meaning of “Professional” (i.e. bottom line). Jill, take note.
It’s been awhile since I read the book.
Actually, Sally, the three that I remember that are in the book and are local, they all deliver babies. Only one has discontinued delivering babies. One still does deliveries along with another doc or two in his office, and the other doc still catches babies.
A close friend of mine is due with baby #7, and one of the docs I mentioned is the lucky practitioner who gets to monitor her pregnancy. Since she’s self pay, she can’t afford a hospital birth, so she’s homebirthing again. Her doc, as much as he would like to, is prevented from delivering babies in patients’ homes.
And I forgot to mention that they teach NFP in addition to their regular workload.
Posted by: carder at June 16, 2008 8:29 PM
……………………………………….
Teaching NFP isn’t exactly rocket science. Unless you are a religionist trying to teach women about the body parts they are supposed to not know anything about.
Why won’t the doctors do home deliveries? Insurance worries more important than their patients? Or do they believe that they are just too dangerous? Has your friend contacted a midwife?
How can your friend possibly be without insurance for a delivery? According to your friends here, health insurance is available to everyone in this country. With the infant mortality rate the way it is here, you would think that the PL would be all over making sure every woman gave birth in only the most sophisticated of situations to prevent those little babies from not being babies.
But it’s really nice that your friend’s doctor can be bothered to see her at all with her being unable to pay the rates he charges insurance companies. Real big of the doc to take on a ‘charity’ case.
I bet Dr. Tiller has seen and repaired more traumas to the uterus than most trauma surgeons.
And he is not an “uncredentialled hack”. He is a leading pioneer in his field and one of the best in the world at what he does. Your patient is extremely unlikely to die or to suffer lasting injury under his care. His enemies keep referring to the same two disasters and one of them is a case from the 1970s and the other was a rare allergic reaction to anaesthesia. It’s like Lime 5–they set out to tar him but they prove to the logical reader by the small number of bad cases they are able to find after exhaustive overfunded research that he’s actually excellent at his job.
And all your objections are quibbles. OK, so it’s not at a trauma center. It’s a rural ER. And it’s not Dr. Tiller. Say it’s a famous OB/GYN who does trauma care and also does late term abortions for ideological reasons like Warren Hern who is an epidemiologist as well as an abortion doc. Your ambulance driver is aware of his abortion work and refuses to drive your patient there. The point is you don’t want your ambulance driver making treatment decisions in the face of the attending physician’s orders.
Hi Sally!!!
I prefer the reality that a doctor with a pregnant woman in his care would do everything in his power to save both the life of the mother and the life of the baby. Their life and health is a priority to him as a doctor.
There are high risk pregnancies and doctors who specialize in their care. There are doctors who save the lives of BOTH of their patients.
Did the baby live, Sally?
Posted by: Carla at June 16, 2008 9:43 PM
………………………..
No. There was no baby Carla. A dead young woman and a dead fetus. Not every story has a happy ever after. While it is encouraging that modern medicine has made strides to prevent the death of pregnant women and the fetus she has risked her life for, it just doesn’t always work out that way.
@Sally: That would be “aneurysm”.
Posted by: Rae at June 16, 2008 9:48 PM
………………….
It’s really groovy that you googled the spelling of the word. Do you know the meaning of the word?
@Sally: I didn’t google it, genius. My grandfather had an aortic aneurysm and they are weakening of the vessel walls of arteries or veins causing them to balloon out leading to decreased pressure in that area of the vessel. Eventually the wall becomes so weak they burst, leading to fatal hemorrhaging.
And no- I didn’t need to look that up.
But it would probably be helpful if you learned how to spell.
@Sally: I didn’t google it, genius. My grandfather had an aortic aneurysm and they are weakening of the vessel walls of arteries or veins causing them to balloon out leading to decreased pressure in that area of the vessel. Eventually the wall becomes so weak they burst, leading to fatal hemorrhaging.
And no- I didn’t need to look that up.
But it would probably be helpful if you learned how to spell.
Posted by: Rae at June 17, 2008 1:06 AM
………………………
Helpful to what? Your feebleness at addressing meaning?
And oh, you so did google up Gramp’s supposed diagnosis of how you suppose that he died.
You are a poser.
Wow Sally stop being such a google Nazi. So what is she did use google?
And quit mocking her dead Grandfather. Rae’s really nice and doesn’t deserve this crap.
Amanda, I can haz itteh bitteh pro-choice kitteh comitteh?
Unlike many of you I speak fluent kitteh-pigeon, or lolcat, as it is commonly referred. You NEVER use kitteh-pigeon like baby talk, it’s no more baby talk then ebonics.
A little insider information from Pharmacists for Life International:
The news cycle was slow, and Rob Stein offered the pro aborts a nice opportunity to whine about people who don’t want to participate in killing humans at the early embryonic stage.
This stuff happens every summer.
That Divine Mercy Healthcare group in VA is willing and ready to take on the media generated controversy.
I’m praying for their success.
Patricia, can you think of any circumstances under which a woman might need to ride in an ambulance to an abortion provider?
No. No one should EVER be sent to an abortion provider, especially an abortionist like you, SoMG.
How about this: you’re a general surgeon doing a trauma rotation and your patient is a pregnant primagravida in her early third trimester who’s been shot in the belly and the ultrasound says the bullet partially severed the umbilical cord and also ripped through the bulk of the placenta (which is highly vascularized, like liver) and both the fetus and the patient are losing blood pressure through it. Your patient tearfully begs you not to sterilize her so you want to avoid hysterectomy. This could be a job for Dr. Tiller or someone like him. (Who else are you going to call with something like this?) Now your ambulance driver, xalisae, refuses to transport your patient and threatens to walk off the job. You finish the story.
Posted by: SoMG at June 16, 2008 10:05 PM
First of all, there would be NO time to transport the patient to an abortionist. I know of NO hospital in Canada that has this policy so xalise would be safe.
Secondly, I would instruct the doctor to save the baby since early third trimester would mean the baby is likely viable. I think very few women would be concerned at this time about their FUTURE fertility. (You don’t think like a woman at all)
Thirdly, the last place I’d ever go is to someone like Tiller and the last place a hospital would ever send a woman in this serious condition is to a butcher like Tiller. Doctors know their own and believe me they know Tiller. They don’t want to have their careers ruined and their pants sued off.
And Fourthly, the women know Tiller too. She would be screaming bloody murder NOT to be sent to him. (When I was having babies, we all knew the doctors to avoid when delivering. Our doctors told us and other women informed each other. I remember a friend who had a very difficult labour and was told by her family physician that he would have to call in a certain ob who was known as a complete butcher. She delivered her baby half an hour later.)
You know SoMG, it’s just like other aspects of the abortion debate. You “medical professionals” can think up the most horrific of stories to press your case, but it doesn’t work. Abortion laws were built on hard cases but those arent the reasons women have abortions. They have abortions primarily for convenience of lifestyle and as a backup to contraception. If you are happy helping women do this and make millions off it, it’s very pathetic of you.
I didn’t mean to trigger your sad-eyed sarcasm, Sally. I was being most sincere.
To respond:
“Teaching NFP isn’t exactly rocket science.”
They’re not trying to teach rocket science. Their own experience and research has led them to believe that NFP is good medicine. The particular vein of NFP that they teach does not have a “religious” component. They teach after office hours on a monthly basis.
“Why won’t the doctors do home deliveries? Insurance worries more important than their patients? Or do they believe that they are just too dangerous? Has your friend contacted a midwife? ”
I’ll give you the big picture.
This particular doc attended my friend’s birth at home for baby #2 or #3, can’t remember. He recieved quite a bit of slack for doing so from a number of medical/hospital staff. Doctors just don’t do homebirths here in Florida, so for him to do that was against protocol, among other things.
He is more than happy to provide prenatal care. They both decided that for future births she should use home birth midwives.
She pays him and her midwives. No charity case there.
@Sally: Wrong again. My grandfather did not die of the aortic aneurysm. They caught it during one of his routine check-ups (he had to get frequent CT scans because of his emphysema) and he was sent to the Mayo Clinic to have it repaired.
My grandfather died of heart failure several years later.
You really should stop drinking so much Sally.
RAe: My girlfriends father had the same sort of thing happen to him. He went to his family doctor for a routine checkup and the doc when palpatating his abdomen felt a lump. The sent him immediately for a scan and found the aortic aneurysm. He went into surgery immediately. Lucky for him and for you granpa too!
Carder I had a home birth. My family doctor did homebirths but stopped about 8 years ago due to age etc. He’s in his 60’s now. A home birth is the best IMO. I had him as well as a doula.
Hester and Hillary,
I never did take to The Scarlet Letter in high school. Boring.
We would follow your conversation a bit easier if you stick to standard capitalization rules. And trying to stick to the topic at hand.
Otherwise, other blogs await you.
SOMG 11:56PM
I bet Tiller has seen and repaired more traumas to the uterus than most trauma surgeons.
I’ll give you that. Traumas he has himself inflicted on his patients.
Check out his website, he has no credentials in OB/GYN and no hospital would permit him to practice as such, especially a trauma center.
OK so its not a trauma center, its a rural ER.
A trauma surgeon on call would work at a facility that handles trauma, (including trauma to pregnant women) that’s why they would have a trauma surgeon(a medical specialty) on call.(Dahhhhh).
A rural ER would do what it could to immediately stabilize the patient and make arrangements to either air-evac her or have paramedics transport her to the nearest facility best equipped to manage her care. Rural and even urban ERs do this all the time. For example, the ER I worked handled trauma, but we transferred burn victims to the burn center in another city.
Like I said SOMG, paramedics or EMTs(they staff and drive the rescue vehicles) would think you were frigging nuts if you wanted to transport a trauma patient like this to the nearest abortionist instead of the hospital equipped to manage her care and hopefully save her child’s life.
The point is you don’t want the ambulance driver making treatment decisions in the face of the attending physician’s orders.
I most certainly would if the attending physician was this stupid. I would prefer the by far superior judgment of the paramedics and EMTs in refusing to transport me anywhere else except the trauma facility best equipped to manage my care.
I’d go to that place in an instant for my prescription needs. I get tired of seeing all those items in the store, right next to the pregnancy tests (coincidence?). They have also been seen in the aisle for other feminine needs.
HisMan 11:36PM
Thank you for your kind words. I haven’t been called a “girl” in years and I won’t elaborate on how many. :)
Have I told you lately how much I love you, Mary?
Can you be my nurse?
Rae and Patricia,
The people you mentioned were indeed fortunate to have their aneurysms diagnosed in time to save them.
These people, whether its a cerebral or aortic aneurysm, are walking time bombs and are likely totally clueless.
I know one man who exploded in a rage at a store clerk and fainted. He was diagnosed with a leaking cerebral aneurysm, initiated by his rapidly increased blood pressure, and operated on. Thankfully he maintained all normal function. Its that fit of anger that saved him!
Also, I believe singer Laura Branigan recently died in her sleep from a ruptured cerebral aneurysm. Very tragic.
My uncle had surgery for an aortic aneurysm and was home recovering very well when he blew an aneurysm in his brain and died.
While the situation of the pregnant woman Sally mentions is tragic, she had this pre-existing condition and it had nothing to do with pregnancy. Pregnancy may have exacerbated her pre-existing condition, such as a fit of temper did the man I previously mentioned.
Had the woman been diagnosed in time, life saving surgery would have been performed, and while every effort would be made to save the baby, the mother’s safety and life would not have been sacrificed in any way.
Carder 7:58am
Thank you so much! You’ve made my day. I’m very fond of you as well.
Hopefully you would never need the services I provide but I would be happy to care for you if need be. :)
How does one get checked for aneurysms? Is there a diagnostic that can scan the body and say, “Looks like you’ve got an aneurysm”?
Any preventable measures?
Carder,
I think if you googled this subject you could find far better and more up to date info than I can give you.
I’m not certain of the diagnostic methods used nowadays, I would think a CAT scan or MRI, I’m not certain if they still use angiograms for cerebral diagnosis. There’s no way every single person could be tested.
I suppose you could ask your doctor and if you’re willing to pay for and go through the diagnostic procedures he/she might agree to it.
I know of no preventable measures. Its a structural defect in the wall of the blood vessel. I’ve seen elderly and very young people die of them. If cerebral aneurysms are diagnosed in time, they can be operated on. Even the surgical procedures are changing and since they don’t do them at our hospital, we only do aortic, I have little knowledge of what they do anymore. Surgical procedures are constantly changing and improving.
Severe headaches, neck pain and stiffness, severe back and abdominal pain, a palpable pulsating abdominal mass can all be symptoms and should be seen immediately.
Haha great post Jill. Loved your last statement.
When DMC Pharmacy opens this summer… in Chantilly [VA],
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Actually, if you be illin’ you should go to the RUN DMC Pharmacy in Hollis.
(Did I just reveal myself to be 800 years old?)
Had to wait until I could get to a real computer to start posting again, because my phone once again has stopped letting me post on this thread.
SoMG:
How about this: you’re a general surgeon doing a trauma rotation and your patient is a pregnant primagravida in her early third trimester who’s been shot in the belly and the ultrasound says the bullet partially severed the umbilical cord and also ripped through the bulk of the placenta (which is highly vascularized, like liver) and both the fetus and the patient are losing blood pressure through it. Your patient tearfully begs you not to sterilize her so you want to avoid hysterectomy. This could be a job for Dr. Tiller or someone like him. (Who else are you going to call with something like this?) Now your ambulance driver, xalisae, refuses to transport your patient and threatens to walk off the job. You finish the story.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, and the only one who can save her is you, you valiant man! Puh-leeze. Inflated sense of self-importance much? You’re an abortionist. You’re not saving anyone’s life, you’re taking lives. Are you honestly telling me that a hospital would actually transport a woman on death’s doorstep to an abortion clinic to save her life? I think you’ve been out of the legitimate medical community too long, fella. You ARE aware that hospitals themselves have been preforming emergency terminations(not that it’s even a certainty that one would be required in this instance) for the gravest of special circumstances legally since well before Roe VS. Wade, right? Even to the extent that sometime AFTER r.v.w., a woman STILL had to go to an actual hospital to have an abortion at later stages of pregnancy, because it’s too dangerous to be done properly at a clinic? Do I seem like I was born yesterday? Are your eyes brown? Why did you get into such a ghoulish business, anyway? Was delivering LIVE babies too difficult for you?
———————–
And you are mistaken xalisae, I’m not trying to change the subject or anything like that. I am genuinely curious about athiesm and therefore about athiests. I do not understand what makes them so certain that there is no god (or God), considering the total absence of evidence in support of that proposition. I have asked many athiests about this but none so far has been able to explain in plain terms why (s)he was so sure that athiesm is right.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When it gets down to it, I am an atheist for the same reason that Christians are Christian. I searched for a higher power…even begged and pleaded for one…for many years. I implored the heavens to grant me the peace of mind and joy in The Spirit they said they had found in their God. I couldn’t find it. They found it, I did not-at least not with their God. I still try to be the best person I can be, and I feel that even if there IS a God (which I am almost certain there is not, but I don’t think ANYTHING can be counted out, and I don’t think that makes me agnostic. I don’t think that bigfoot exists, but I still hold it within the realm of possibility.) he will accept me, because I am a good person. If he wouldn’t, I don’t know if I would want to be accepted by him anyway, if he would turn away a good person for whatever reason, and allow evil to flourish in his domain. Do you believe in God? If so, aren’t you scared?
———————–
Janet:
If you want BC, there’s a K-MART in the same strip mall as this pharmacy that won’t sell BC. No harm done.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That’s awesome. I think everyone standing up for their convictions is great, especially if it doesn’t interfere with other peoples’ lives.
———————–
And I missed the bit about “professionalism”, and I don’t have time to search for it, but as far as that goes, I’d rather die a pauper with my integrity and convictions than compromise them and be “professional”. I guess I’m just old-fashioned like that.
Sally 11:39PM
According to your friends here, Planned Parenthood provides low cost and free prenatal care to low income women. Supposedly this is one of their premier services.
What difference would it make if women had insurance or not and why would there be any problem of infant mortality with PP offering its services?
“There’s a reason it’s called emergency contraception, right?”
Sure, because the dishonest side doesn’t want it properly named as “murder by chemical weapons”
“To use a pro-abort argument… if you don’t like it, don’t use it.”
Posted by: Cranky Catholic at June 16, 2008 8:59 PM
That option is already there, with the “full service” pharmacy. And in your scenario, the comparison is clear – presuming the “NO BC here” is clearly posted before anyone steps inside.
That isn’t the case in reality. There’s also the state licensing problem – the pharmacist is licensed to dispense medication. In some cases to clarify form his/her scientific perspective to inform the patient about the effects of the medication.
At what point does it place an unnecessary burden on the patient to navigate a host of pharmacy options in which each pharmacist is not selling x, not because of professional considerations, but because of personal prejudice? That precedent should NEVER be allowed to be set.
Now you’ve gone and done it Gerry. Someone will come and start yapping about war casualties. :)
Wait for it.
” If you want the other stuff, go to a place that sells it. That’s how it works. They have a right not to sell what they don’t want to sell. Like Amanda said, it’s in Tampa, there’s a freaking CVS on every corner that I’m sure would love to make money.”
Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella’s Momma) at June 16, 2008 9:38 PM
This is also in response to Hisman.
There’s a difference that is important here. While a business can claim they don’t want to carry x and the customer can get it at another business, the professional, due to his/her specialized training and subsequent response-ability is not allowed to impose his/her personal judgments on clients. The professional is bound to provide the best care available, within the standards of that profession and the clients wishes.
When the professional stops acting in that manner, they are no longer in that profession. In other words, a “pharmacy” can opt out of providing birth control, but then they are a “just” a convenience store and should be treated as such.
Phylosopher, 9:49am
It happens all the time. Businessmen and women may not sell certain products because of ethical or religious considerations, and yes, this may cause inconvenience to customers.
If I want Kosher meat, I may have to do some searching to find a Kosher butcher.
It may be very inconvenient for me that my local Hindu grocer does not sell meat products of any kind.
I may not like the ethnic food that a grocer sells exclusively and may have to travel some distance to another grocery store.
There is certainly no shortage of pharmacies.
The woman can pick up a phone and call the local pharmacies if there is any question about what prescriptions they may have ethical concerns about. Also, doctors who call in prescriptions to pharmacies on a regular basis would certainly know and would be able to refer her.
Yes, and the only one who can save her is you, you valiant man! Puh-leeze. Inflated sense of self-importance much? You’re an abortionist. You’re not saving anyone’s life, you’re taking lives. Are you honestly telling me that a hospital would actually transport a woman on death’s doorstep to an abortion clinic to save her life? I think you’ve been out of the legitimate medical community too long, fella. You ARE aware that hospitals themselves have been preforming emergency terminations(not that it’s even a certainty that one would be required in this instance) for the gravest of special circumstances legally since well before Roe VS. Wade, right? Even to the extent that sometime AFTER r.v.w., a woman STILL had to go to an actual hospital to have an abortion at later stages of pregnancy, because it’s too dangerous to be done properly at a clinic? Do I seem like I was born yesterday? Are your eyes brown? Why did you get into such a ghoulish business, anyway? Was delivering LIVE babies too difficult for you?
Is this your comment xalisae?
Soldiers in the Army have the same basic training. That’s why it’s called “basic training”. They are all professional soldiers. Some soldiers, however, object to killing other human beings, and being put in a position to kill other human beings. They are still soldiers, but they are not expected to kill other people or be put in a position to do so. That doesn’t make them unfit, unqualified, or unclassified as soldiers.
Yes, Patricia. I lost my temper, I’m afraid, but I hate it when I feel as though people are being condescending to me. It’s a pet peeve. :(
Phylosopher, 10:03am
Yes, professionals of every kind can refuse to involve themselves in activities they consider unethical.
I refused to be involved in abortions though I had no issue with tubal ligations.
A police officer can refuse to do what he or she considers unethical or goes against their conscience, such as coercing a confession from a suspect they know is guilty.
Your doctor can refuse to do something he/she considers unethical, such as performing an unnecessary surgery on you, even though you insist you want it.
The list goes on and on.
Do all of these people suddenly become unprofessional?
And my comment about soldiers was for Phylosopher, by the way. I thought I had put the name at the top, but didn’t. sorry.
And I missed the bit about “professionalism”, and I don’t have time to search for it, but as far as that goes, I’d rather die a pauper with my integrity and convictions than compromise them and be “professional”. I guess I’m just old-fashioned like that.
Posted by: xalisae at June 17, 2008 9:02 AM
That’s just the point xalisae, it is about keeping one’s integrity – which means that one shouldn’t expect/plan/continue to be a pharmacist unless one can put the best interests of the patient ahead of one’s own personal prejudices.
Remember, a pharmacist is not diagnosing and prescribing, s/he is dispensing. If a pharmacist has a problem with the doctor’ scrip, it’s the doctor s/he contacts, not the patient. ANd certainly not to take away a legitimately obtained prescription and give a “moral” lecture.
Well, xalisae: it WAS brilliant!
Soldiers in the Army have the same basic training. That’s why it’s called “basic training”. They are all professional soldiers. Some soldiers, however, object to killing other human beings, and being put in a position to kill other human beings. They are still soldiers, but they are not expected to kill other people or be put in a position to do so. That doesn’t make them unfit, unqualified, or unclassified as soldiers.
Posted by: xalisae at June 17, 2008 10:09 AM
Say what? Then what they have is a dishonourable discharge, especially if they try this one on a battlefield.
Most would try before hand to obtain conscientious objector status (in times of draft). In times of voluntary enlistment, why/how would they enlist?
Soldiers in the Army have the same basic training. That’s why it’s called “basic training”. They are all professional soldiers. Some soldiers, however, object to killing other human beings, and being put in a position to kill other human beings. They are still soldiers, but they are not expected to kill other people or be put in a position to do so. That doesn’t make them unfit, unqualified, or unclassified as soldiers.
Posted by: xalisae at June 17, 2008 10:09 AM
This made me think about something my dad once told me. He “fought” in WWII, although he wasn’t an infantryman – he was in the signal corps. One time he was put in charge of guarding two German POW’s and had his bayonet pointed at them. I asked him what he would have done if they had rushed him. I told me that he would have shot them. But he also told me he was very glad he never had to kill anyone. He said he was “quaking” in his boots guarding them!
Phylosopher,
The pharmacist can always refuse to take the prescription over the phone, the doctor and the patient then have the option of other pharmacies.
Like I said, calling in prescriptions the doctor should have a pretty good idea of what pharmacies offer what services.
I do not support giving the patient a moral lecture, but if there is a sign up there that clearly states what products are or are not offered, then the client should know to take her prescription elsewhere.
Like I said this happens all the time in the business and professional fields.
A police officer can refuse to do what he or she considers unethical or goes against their conscience, such as coercing a confession from a suspect they know is guilty.
Your doctor can refuse to do something he/she considers unethical, such as performing an unnecessary surgery on you, even though you insist you want it.
The list goes on and on.
Do all of these people suddenly become unprofessional?
Posted by: Mary at June 17, 2008 10:15 AM
Coercion is not part of a policeman’s duties. It is to uphold the law which describes/includes how a suspect is treated. S/he gets fired and is open to jail time if s/he violates the law.
That the surgery is unnecessary is part of the doctor’s area of expertise. And a patient can and does have the option of getting a second opinion. If the doctor refuses to perform these surgeries and it is confirmed that they are necessary by peers, but the doctor is refusing to perform them because of personal prejudice, and if a patient is harmed, then that doctor is open to a malpractice suit and subsequent penalties such as revocation of license.
Last post today – it is just too beautiful outside to be at a computer. TTFN
phylosopher:
“Most would try before hand to obtain conscientious objector status (in times of draft).”
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That’s primarily what I was talking about, but I’m almost certain that soldiers who have designations such as chaplains and medics are not required to kill enemy combatants, in peace time or war time, draft or no draft. There’s actually a Buddhist Chaplain in the Armed Forces now…did you know that?
Well, xalisae: it WAS brilliant!
Posted by: Patricia at June 17, 2008 10:22 AM
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Thank you, Patricia. Heh. I almost think he took personal offense to me stating that I was an atheist because he thinks he’s God. Although, I’d expect as much from someone who kills people in the womb for a living.
I think one very good example would be a plastic surgeon who, because of concern about a patient having psychological issues, cannot ethically or in good conscience perform any more procedures on the patient and instead refers him/her to counselling.
What about the rights of the patient? Doesn’t he/she have a right to this surgeon’s services? What gives the surgeon any right to refuse or impose his/her ethics and morality on the patient?
I’m certain a doctor could be found who would perform the procedures requested if the patient was so determined and if he/she could ethically and in good conscience operate on a patient who wants the service, why not?
Would one argue the original plastic surgeon had no right to allow his conscience or personal ethics interfere with his decision concerning this patient?
Phylospher,
I certainly agree that coercion is not part of a policeman’s duty, though an officer may be pressured or tempted by circumstances that we who don’t deal with dregs on a regular basis can’t comprehend.
Should a police officer stick to his/her ethics if it means a murderer will walk the streets? This can be a moral dilemma for a police officer.
About the doctor, the issue here is the patient wants the service. Is the doctor wrong to refuse? Even if another doctor is found who will perform what I stressed is an unnecessary procedure do you agree the original doctor had no right to impose his ethics on this patient? What gives him/her the right to do so and why is this any different from the pharmacist who cannot in good conscience fill a prescription?
This made me think about something my dad once told me. He “fought” in WWII, although he wasn’t an infantryman – he was in the signal corps. One time he was put in charge of guarding two German POW’s and had his bayonet pointed at them. I asked him what he would have done if they had rushed him. I told me that he would have shot them. But he also told me he was very glad he never had to kill anyone. He said he was “quaking” in his boots guarding them!
Posted by: Patricia at June 17, 2008 10:28 AM
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My husband is a truck driver in the Army, and I’m glad he’s rarely if ever put in such circumstances, because I don’t know how he’d handle having to do such a thing, honestly.
My brother is in the Marines in intelligence though…and he mostly just sits at a computer, or so he says (he’s too cool to be able to tell us what he really does, and the specifics), but I wouldn’t worry about him so much if he ever was in a position of “kill or be killed”.
Mary, I think if a plastic surgeon had serious professional concerns that a patient was seeking treatment as a result of some psychiatric imbalance he would have no problems provided he could back himself up. What he might do is request that patient to have some sort of psychiatric evaluation. I don’t know how regulated the profession is but I would assume like any other, some will do a certain procedure for any reason as long as the patient consents.
Just because we can do something does that me we ought to?
Dear X,
I am very grateful to your husband and brother for fighting for freedom! We hardly thank our soldiers enough!
Also, your comment to SoMG at 9:02 was awesome!
xalisae and Patricia,
My father was in WW2. He talked of lining up German POWs and gunning them down. What else would they do with them?
War is very dirty business.
xalisae,
Thank you to your husband and brother for their service to our country.
Patricia 10:57am
We could argue the original plastic surgeon was in the right or that he/she has no business imposing his/her ethics on the patient.
What if the patient is adamant about being mentally stable, thank you very much, and more than capable of making such decisions. The patient may well be outraged at such a suggestion.
I would argue the surgeon had every right to refuse to do what he/she considered unethical and against his/her conscience, and the patient had every right to seek the services of another provider.
I’ll pass along the good wishes to them both, thank you. :)
And Mary, there were actually, I think, 2 German POW camps here in the states. I always thought that was kinda cool. We actually ended up with a few immigrants because of it.
Anyway, I’m off to get ready for band practice. I’ll be back when I can. Take care, everyone (even SoMG). :P
My father was in WW2. He talked of lining up German POWs and gunning them down. What else would they do with them?
War is very dirty business.
Oh Mary, what country did your father serve with? Why would they do this? My dad was serving for Canada and was with the British and Polish armies. He helped liberate Holland France etc. and stayed on as part of the occupying army.
I would argue the surgeon had every right to refuse to do what he/she considered unethical and against his/her conscience, and the patient had every right to seek the services of another provider.
Posted by: Mary at June 17, 2008 11:06 AM
I’d agree with this.
My ex is a lawyer and when he was in private practice he told me that lawyers can’t refuse not to represent someone if they know they are guilty. Which apparently is why most lawyers don’t ask their clients. I guess the idea is that people (even guilty ones have the right to representation and guilt must be proven) If a lawyer knows a client is guilty he won’t have him testify however, because he doesn’t want the client to perjure himself.
However, some lawyers who have consciences (yes, there are SOME!!) pick their cases carefully and don’t do certain types of work. For example, a Catholic lawyer I know doesn’t do divorces and rarely does family law.
xalisae
I heard about the German POW camps too. My mother’s brother commanded one in Europe. There’s a funny story I’ve told before. A German POW who was very artistic offered to paint a picture from photos of my mother and grandmother. My uncle thought this was really nice of the guy and so the pictures were painted.
My uncle was impressed, my mother and grandmother were mortified. My mother said they looked like a couple of prison camp matrons, with noses down to their chins, stern looks, upswept hairdos and lace collars, which they weren’t even wearing.
My mom and grandma were convinced the German was getting even for losing the war and more insulted that my uncle actually thought they looked like this!
My mother conveniently lost the pictures though I’m sure they be worth a fortune by now. My uncle thought they should go over the fireplace, my mother thought they should go in it.
Patricia,
My father served with the U.S. 101st airborne at the Siege of Bastogne and the Battle of the Bulge. A source of tremendous pride for me.
There was little other option where POWs were concerned. They couldn’t feed or guard them and had no place to keep them. It was an exceptionally brutal winter. The Americans were barely getting by as it was. So they gunned them down instead.
I had other male relatives who served in WW2 as well. One was a fighter pilot, another served in the S.Pacific(my father’s brother), the rest in Europe.
My uncle who served in the S.Pacific loathes Japanese to this day and my father went to his grave despising Germans.
Mary: Yeah, well I can’t say I blame your one uncle much, as POW’s were treated absolutely barbarically by the Japanese. And of course, Pearl Harbour which I would like to see some day.
My dad often tells me about being on Juno beach at Normandy. He was not part of the immediate invasion force but he was bombed mercilessly there.
Mary, I’m sorry about your dad, God rest his soul. Most men never spoke much of their experiences during the war.Maybe because my father was for the most part fairly safe, he has many memories he could speak about. My father also missed being killed several times by the hair on his head.
My father became very good friends with a German who lived near us and fought in the war. Every year this man brought my dad cherry and plum wine he made as a gift of reparation. My father could speak fluent German – this man could barely speak English.
My mother said they looked like a couple of prison camp matrons, with noses down to their chins, stern looks, upswept hairdos and lace collars, which they weren’t even wearing.
Maybe this was the German idea of beauty at the time. My dad tells the story of a German mother who wanted my dad to marry her daughter. All my dad will tell me is that she had the biggest feet he’d ever seen on a woman! He married my mom a petite Italian woman with very small slender feet!!!
X,
SoMG stated that he was interested in chemical abortions when he entered med school. He doesn’t speak highly of OB/GYNs, so I doubt he delivered “too many” babies.
But really, SoMG, out of all the specialties that exist in medicine, what was it about the abortion industry that attracted you? Was it the previous family history of abortion? Other factors?
Patricia, 12:07PM
Thank you for your kind words concerning my father.
Good point about the German concept of beauty, I never thought of that. Maybe the buxom barmaid or hausfrau image or something.
It certainly wasn’t my grandmother’s and mother’s idea of beauty! My grandmother, like your father, also spoke fluent German, she was American born to a German immigrant family. I always knew I was missing out on some family scandal when she and her sister spoke German! My mother’s biggest regret was that she never maintained the German she began learning as a child along with English. She could easily have been bi-lingual.
Carder: SoMG has a family history of abortions?
Mary: I have a question for you. If your family is of German ancestry was this a problem for them during the second WW in America?
My Italian grandparents had a very hard time in Canada and my mom’s eldest sister’s husband was sent to a camp. He later became the first Italian-Canadian elected to our House of Commons. My aunts changed their last names during the war and died their black hair blonde so they could get work.
Patricia,
I don’t think they did. My grandmother and her sisters, as well as my mother, were all married to men with non-German names. My grandmother being my grandmother she would never hide her heritage. They all had sons serving in the war so I doubt it was ever an issue for them.
I believe German Americans had more problems during the first WW and my great great grandmother kept her German to a minimum. She could speak 7 languages but could never master the English language.
very interesting Mary. And that’s good for your family too.
Have a nice day. I’m off to the library to bother the patrons!!
I believe German Americans had more problems during the first WW and my great great grandmother kept her German to a minimum. She could speak 7 languages but could never master the English language.
Posted by: Mary at June 17, 2008 12:39 PM
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Your great great grandmother spoke 7 languages? There has to be an interesting story there. It would have been pretty rare for a woman to have received that much instruction back in the day. Do you know if she was allowed a higher education beyond language? She must have been an interesting woman. Did you know her?
Family history just fascinates me.
Patricia,
My father served with the U.S. 101st airborne at the Siege of Bastogne and the Battle of the Bulge. A source of tremendous pride for me.
There was little other option where POWs were concerned. They couldn’t feed or guard them and had no place to keep them. It was an exceptionally brutal winter. The Americans were barely getting by as it was. So they gunned them down instead.
I had other male relatives who served in WW2 as well. One was a fighter pilot, another served in the S.Pacific(my father’s brother), the rest in Europe.
My uncle who served in the S.Pacific loathes Japanese to this day and my father went to his grave despising Germans.
Posted by: Mary at June 17, 2008 11:55 AM
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It is so amazing how much real people have in commnon!
My father was infantry. Light truck driver and sharpshooter. Fought the Ardennes offensive in 4 battles including the Battle of the Bulge. He was part of the armed services to stick around after the war and ‘sort things out’. And your dad was Air Corp supporting the infantry during a couple of the battles my father fought. How cool! Do you think that our fathers could have known each other? Probably not.
Sally 7:30PM
Thank you for your interest. In fact my g-g grandmother was raised in Europe and it was common for people to be multilingual with all the various ethnicities around. National borders were constantly changing and you could be a resident of one country one day and a different country the next.
She was not at all an educated woman, just someone raised around a multitude of languages.
No, I never knew her, even my mother barely remembers her.
Sally 8:37PM
Isn’t that incredible, they were in the same area anyway. Who knows, their paths may have crossed. My father was a paratrooper with the 101st besieged at Bastogne. It was his commanding officer who told the Germans “nuts!” when ordered to surrender. The air corps could finally drop supplies after a break in the weather.
My father wound up wounded and sent from the Battle of the Bulge. My mother has always been vague about what happened, I think her memory may not be so good. My father did tell me he was shot in the shoulder and the leg.
Your father and the others must have had a real mess on their hands post war.
My uncle who was in the S Pacific during and after the war said that even after Japan surrendered and “peace” was declared, American soldiers died by the hundreds every week, being shot by locals, guerrillas, and soldiers who would not surrender. Our presence was definitely not welcome. He told me this was kept from the American public who wrongly thought the killing was over.
By the way Sally did you father ever speak of “palm guns”? They were small guns that German soldiers hid in the palms of their hands while “surrendering” then would kill an unsuspecting American. I remember my father kept the one he took from a dead German in his drawer and I have a vague memory of seeing it.
Hi Mary:
By the way Sally did you father ever speak of “palm guns”? They were small guns that German soldiers hid in the palms of their hands while “surrendering” then would kill an unsuspecting American. I remember my father kept the one he took from a dead German in his drawer and I have a vague memory of seeing it.
Posted by: Mary at June 17, 2008 9:05 PM
I will ask my dad about this. He is 88 but his memory is very very good.
Patricia and Sally,
I understand the weather was a history altering factor in the Ardennes, which makes the addition of Patricia’s father as a weathercaster during this time very interesting and coincidental.
The Weather Channel had a special on this and it was fascinating.
Your father might want to keep an eye out for these specials Patricia, especially where they pertain to WW2.
Sally, did your father watch “The 20th Century”?
It was on Sundays I believe and my father never missed it as it covered much on WW2. I well remember the theme song and I think Walter Cronkite hosted it.
Patricia, I’m not sure this show was shown in Canada but do you have any memory of it?
M: “It happens all the time. Businessmen and women may not sell certain products because of ethical or religious considerations, and yes, this may cause inconvenience to customers.
If I want Kosher meat, I may have to do some searching to find a Kosher butcher.”
P: That’s a religious requirement on top of health concerns. It is incumbent on the customer to derive those “special” procedural products. In other words, there is meat available, just not the one a Jew prefers – said Jew will be able to find sustenance in store.
M: “It may be very inconvenient for me that my local Hindu grocer does not sell meat products of any kind.”
P: But if it says “Hindu grocery” I’ve been duly warned that it doesn’t carry meat. And, I won’t starve because there is a reasonable substitute in the store – any other edible product.
M: “There is certainly no shortage of pharmacies.”
P: Depends on where you live and your insurance plan.
M: “The woman can pick up a phone and call the local pharmacies if there is any question about what prescriptions they may have ethical concerns about. Also, doctors who call in prescriptions to pharmacies on a regular basis would certainly know and would be able to refer her.”
P: My religion says pain is a punishment from God and should not be alleviated. Therefore “I’ as a pharmacist will not sell any pain relieving drugs and there are other pharmacists who practice my religion – so next time you need an analgesic, Mary, just make sure to phone first to see if we carry your sinful pain reliever.
Posted by: Mary at June 17, 2008 10:06 AM
Phylospher,
If I am an elderly or disabled person, the fact that certain stores won’t sell the food I prefer or even need to eat may cause tremendous inconvenience for me, especially if I have to travel a considerable distance to find a store to suit my needs. Too bad, grocers have a right to decide what they sell or don’t sell.
“HIndu Grocery” is making the same statement as “pro-life pharmacy”, that certain products are not for sale and you must go elsewhere.
Depending on where one lives and physical ability, finding another grocery store my not be that convenient or easy, such as finding another pharmacy may not be. The business people involved have a right to sell or not sell what they choose.
If a pharmacist has serious objections to dispensing pain relieving drugs then he or she should inform their employer or if they are running their own business, the public. If they can keep a job or stay in business despite this, fine. I seriously doubt they would. I doubt I would have to phone since I know the pharmacy I use dispenses pain meds.
By the way Phylosopher, a pharmacist can refuse to dispense pain meds if he/she suspects they are being obtained illegally or wrongly prescribed.