Jivin J’s Life Links 2-17-09
by JivinJ
The überright has already succeeded in throwing so many obstacles in the path of women trying to end unwanted pregnancies: 24-hour waiting periods, parental consent laws, and so on. Required ultrasounds are a step too far. “Offered” ultrasounds are insulting, too. In my humble opinion, both are completely unconstitutional.
First off, I don’t think Erbe has an opinion which is humble. Secondly, imagine the thought process (or lack thereof) of someone who thinks it is unconstitutional to make abortion providers offer to turn the ultrasound screen towards a woman if she wants to see it. How could that be unconstitutional? Does a woman have a constitutional right to an abortion but no right to see an ultrasound? Do abortionists suddenly have the constitutional right to do whatever they want inside their clinic doors? Erbe continues…
Read my lips: Elections have consequences. You lost. Go away.
It’s true that Republicans lost elections on the national level but they keep majorities in a number of state legislatures. It doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to tell state representatives and state senator they lost and to go away when they won their elections, now does it?
The 3rd part notes that illegal abortion occur in South Africa despite it being legal and funded with tax dollars:
Abortion was legalised in 1997.
Abortions are free at clinics and hospitals around the country.
[Photo courtesy of Maureen Sill’s photostream]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
“The abortion will terminate the life of a whole, separate, unique, living human being.”
Every state should make abortionists say this line to their patients
Agreed, Krystal. Way to go, ND!
I agree with Krystal.
I also think that Erbe is a complete moron. The left makes me sick to my stomach.
Oh wow, Erbe, what good advice! I do wonder why you didn’t take your own advice regarding “going away” during the last 8 years? According to you “elections have consequences” and one of those consequences if for us all to check our brains and opinions at the door and fall in line behind our leader. Good to know. I guess we should count on your undying support of the pro-life cause when the republicans retake office.
“The 3rd part notes that illegal abortion occur in South Africa despite it being legal and funded with tax dollars”
The article says that illegal abortions occur because the hospitals are too far away and/or the women don’t want to be recognized.
I can just imagine how many lives would be saved and how many other lives that are scarred by abortion this line would help. Even if they weren’t madated to show an ultrasound to the mother or her support person, this single line would make a world of a difference. Since most abortionists lie to their patients along with the abortionists staff lieing about the development of the baby to the mother.
Most abortionists refer to the baby as ‘it’ or ’tissue’. Its a physcological tactic that is rude and degrading for a women who may not know any better then to listen to an abortion mill. Even in this world of internet and more knowledge there are still people out there who are not educated on the most important life issues.
Luckyily for me I felt my baby kicking me as the word abortion swirled through my head. My baby knew he needed to get my attention and he did, otherwise he could have ended up like millions of others thrown away and forgotten about. I was told at 23 weeks along by a OB/GYN that it was a blob of tissue well a blob of tissue doesn’t move around in my eyes….
More how-to-kill-the-baby legislation… lovely.
Kudos to ND. (But I lived there one winter and it’s just too flippin’ cold there! LOL)
Hopefully we will see other states follow suit.
Grand Forks, ND…BRRRRRR. :)
Fly on up to my neck of the woods…..talk about brrr….lol
But I was surfing the web and found a great website http://www.savingtinyhearts.org.
Yup… Grand Forks was my home for one very brief winter. (Okay, I’ll admit it… I hightailed it home to the Sonoran Desert not long after Thanksgiving. I know. I’m a wimp!!!)
“The abortion will terminate the life of a whole, separate, unique, living human being.”
Every state should make abortionists say this line to their patients
Posted by: Krystal at February 17, 2009 10:49 AM
Like they don’t know that already? Give me a break. Give women a bit more credit for making their own choices.
A fully INFORMED choice right, Danielle?
On one hand you assume she doesn’t know anything about fetal development and on the other hand you assume she does.
Which is it?? Shouldn’t ALL WOMEN have the right to hear those words? If she knows it she might say, “Yes, I already know that.” If she doesn’t she might say, “I didn’t know that.” Maybe you should give women a little more credit for being able to decide when all of the FACTS are on the table.
An abortionist say that to a woman?? Give me a break.
I posted a letter on my blog about the incongruities regarding abortion and freedom and life. I didn’t write it, but it so exquisitely expressed my feelings about it that I wish I had been the author. I pray that more states will follow North Dakota’s lead and pass this kind of legislation. By such small means, many of these innocent lives could be saved–but then that’s what has the Left so rattled.
If you’d like to read the letter, here’s the link:
http://happeedaze.blogspot.com/2009/01/i-wish-i-had-written-this-letter.html
Elisabeth,
Don’t feel bad. I made it one semester at UND!! And I grew up in ND! :)
“The abortion will terminate the life of a whole, separate, unique, living human being.”
This doesn’t sound like a medical statement, or at least it is awfully ambiguous. Does “unique” refer to the fetus’s genetic make-up and if so, why not say that? Also, what if the fetus is not genetically unique, as in the case of identical twins? I also don’t quite understand what is meant by “whole” or “separate” in medical terms.
Pro-choicer, as in this is a seperate human life, not simply part of your body to do with what you please.
Pro-choicer’s are found of chanting “my body, my choice” when the reality is that there is a sepearte, unique human being whose body is shredded during an abortion.
A fully INFORMED choice right, Danielle? On one hand you assume she doesn’t know anything about fetal development and on the other hand you assume she does. Which is it?? Shouldn’t ALL WOMEN have the right to hear those words? If she knows it she might say, “Yes, I already know that.” If she doesn’t she might say, “I didn’t know that.” Maybe you should give women a little more credit for being able to decide when all of the FACTS are on the table. An abortionist say that to a woman?? Give me a break.
Posted by: Carla at February 17, 2009 1:42 PM
-I don’t recall saying that women don’t know about fetal development, so I’m not sure where that’s coming from…as for the rest, frankly, I don’t care what’s said as long as its WITHOUT AGENDA, and this type of legistation is reeking with it. Just come out and say, ‘I hope that hearing this (along with all that unspoken judgement and condensation that comes with it) will stop a woman from having an abortion,’ rather than steeping it in, ‘but it’s all about information and making sure everyone knows etc’. Whatever.
You may as well stick a baby doll in front of her that cries ‘please mommy don’t kill me’ and claim that it’s just so that she ‘understands the other side of the story’. Women get abortions because they want them. Because they need them. Because. I don’t like the idea of anyone implying their own issues into the process to satisfying their own issues. No, it’s not ‘just a blob of tissue’ (at least emotionally), anymore than it’s a future scienist who discovers the cure for cancer. It’s a life that she doesn’t want, she has the legal right to end it, she knows that, so give her the basic facts, not something laced in pro-life agenda.
I didn’t want an abortion.
What are the basic facts then, Danielle?
Mmmmmm…maybe not a baby doll. I would settle for letting her see her baby on the ultrasound screen.
Pro-choicer, as in this is a seperate human life, not simply part of your body to do with what you please.
Well, that’s what I am getting at. That sounds like a moral statement, not a medical statement–and a very controversial moral statement at that.
I thought the point was “informed consent” but this statement is extremely misleading because it is so ambiguous. Who knows how a woman hearing it from her doctor might interpret it or what it might mean to her?
I would settle for letting her see her baby on the ultrasound screen.
Women aren’t allowed to see their ultrasounds?
Not all abortion mills have ultrasound.
Women are routinely not allowed to see the screen in abortion mills. The screen is turned away from the woman so she cannot see her baby.
PC,
How is that statement a moral statement?? It is scientific fact.
Which doctor do you mean? The abortionist?? They rarely talk or engage with the woman. They have a child to kill.
I didn’t want an abortion.
What are the basic facts then, Danielle?
Posted by: Carla at February 17, 2009 2:56 PM
-Carla, I have no idea. I can’t speak to your personal experiences. I would argue that any woman who doesn’t want an abortion shouldn’t have one.
That’s not quite the same thing as being deprived of the right to see the ultrasound. I am pretty sure that a woman who asks to see her ultrasound would be accommodated. And if not, she would have every right to raise hell about it.
Not all abortion mills have ultrasound.
Women are routinely not allowed to see the screen in abortion mills. The screen is turned away from the woman so she cannot see her baby.
Posted by: Carla at February 17, 2009 3:14 PM
-To add to the other side of the story, I know that where I am, you get sonograms (same as ultrasound, right?). They obviously engage the women because this is a)normally a longer part of the process and b) I know of at least one case that the sono changed the woman’s mind. So know one’s hiding anything here. There’s an article on abortion in March09 issue of Glamour magazine, I believe, that has many stories on different sides of the issue. One of which was a woman who had an ultrasound right before her abortion, and kept the print out afterwards.
Sorry, PC. That is not always the case I have many friends that asked to see the ultrasound and were told NO, it was turned away or was turned off.
Danielle,
You are almost 19 years too late with your advice to me. You cannot speak to my personal experience with abortion so I will.
Are they 3D or 4D ultrasounds, Danielle?
The reason I ask is because those ancient 2D can be so scratchy. Hard to see the baby, ya know?
Yes, I know about the Glamour article. Too bad the services offered at the end of the article were prochoice. How about Rachel’s Vineyard? Save One? Abortion Changes You? National Helpline for Abortion Recovery 1-866-482-LIFE
PC,
Please go to SilentNoMore.org or OperationOutcry.org and read some of the stories of women and their horrifying time in the mills. I believe in all of us being fully informed.
OK, Carla, I would agree with you that it is wrong for doctors to deprive patients of the opportunity to see ultrasounds, CAT scans, test results, or anything else related to their body that they have asked to see.
I would be outraged if some doctor made a decision contrary to the woman’s judgment as to whether she should see her ultrasound.
Unfortunately some women are in a very vulnerable spot. They are alone, frightened, and have NO idea what they are in for. How does a young woman of 18 express outrage when she is pressured to abort by her boyfriend??
I would give anything to back there and express my outrage!!!
Danielle, PC,
Thank you. If I was snarky in any way please forgive me. I am passionate about women being totally, completely informed about the consequences of abortion. Like I wasn’t.
I have children coming in the door from school. :)
Are they 3D or 4D ultrasounds, Danielle?
The reason I ask is because those ancient 2D can be so scratchy. Hard to see the baby, ya know?
Posted by: Carla at February 17, 2009 3:32 PM
-I don’t know for sure, but I’m going to assume that they’re pretty $$ to secure, so at a non-profit public clinic, I’m betting they’re are the basic ones.
Carla,
I am VERY sorry hear that you suffered from an abortion. I was also very saddened by the Operation Outcry testimonials, which I read.
Pro-choice means pro-choice. That means women should be free from coercion either way. From a pro-choicers’ perspective, it is just as wrong to coerce a woman to have an unwanted abortion as it is to coerce a woman to have an unwanted pregnancy.
I don’t agree that every abortion doctor is some hard-hearted brute who is trying to hustle women to have abortions. There may be bad doctors out there, but I don’t think anyoone would suffer through the death threats and abortion terrorism that abortion doctors suffer unless he or she genuinely wants to help women.
I also maintain that mandating a meaningless script for abortion doctors to read is a good solution to anything. And that some women’s bad experience with abortion is a reason to deprive other women of choice.
Yikes. That should say that mandating a meaningless script for doctors to read is NOT a good solution to anything. And that some women’s bad experience is NOT a reason to deprive others of choice.
is it a reason to deprive an unborn child of their right to LIFE? The only “Crime” the child has committed is being conceived at the WRONG time.
Know this, that when people who are pro-choice die, they will come face to face with the victims of abortion. If they do not understand the severity of abortion, on the physical and emotional level….if they deny the human dignity and right to life, to the unborn, in favor of their right to their own body….then sadly the last place where they WILL loose their pro-choice agenda is before God, for He says that nothing is more important than the life of the unborn. Pregnancy is so precious and we tell God, thanks but no thanks to His gift?
I know two people who have had abortions. The first, when I was in the university. She was coerced to have an abortion from her boyfriend. He took her and could only pay for an abortion with no form of anesthesia. She didn’t leave her house for a month. And when I saw her around she was depressed and morally wrecked.
The second person I know, she still can’t forget her abortion. She is married with two children, and her husband does not know her secret. She had the abortion so long ago, but when she talks about it, you sense a remorse, so deep that it cannot be fixed. She says she wants to scream to the world what she has done, that she cannot take the pain and guilt. The sad thing is that she has talked to her pastor, psychologist, friends some family members and she still cannot find a way to forgive herself. I really didn’t know how to help her, but just listen to her story and pray that she will start to learn to overcome her guilt.
anonymous
have you told the two women you who about Silent No More movement?
I would like to throw in my personal experience here for a moment and say that when I went in for an ultrasound before my abortion, it was turned away from me. I’m naturally curious, and I arched my head to see it. As soon as the tech noticed, she asked if I wanted to see it. I said yes. With no further adieu she quite casually turned the screen towards me and circled the fetus’ on the screen (two the first time, one the second). I doubt that in the majority of situations that that is anything but normal.
Anonymous,
Please email me. My heart is breaking for your friends. I have been there and can offer to walk with them. You can click on my name in the mod section or click my name in the comments here and get to my blog.
PC
Is it coercion to NOT tell a woman anything about a procedure that kills her child and can cause physical and emotional harm? Isn’t that lying by omission?
Abortionists have very little to do with women. They are not there to chit chat and reassure. Time is money.
Death threats and abortion terrorism? Do tell.
Also, I appreciate that you went to OO and read the stories. Those ladies are my fearless friends.
This is a post a friend did about my abortion story.
http://ravingatheist.com/2009/02/walking-with-aubrey
Hi Carla,
I watched the second video and was very sorry to hear that you have suffered.
Doctor-patient communication is a tricky business, in my experience, and doctors are often horrible at it. That doesn’t make it okay when communication breaks down, but I don’t think this is a problem limited to abortion procedures. (I have had some wretched experiences with doctors who were callous or unclear or arrogant, including one who led me to erroneously believe that I had cancer.)
Medical schools need to improve their training (if there is any) on how to talk to patients. But I don’t think State mandates are going to improve the situation. Counseling is a two-way street and a lot of what is appropriate for a doctor to say to a patient depends on what the patient is saying or what cues she is giving. I also don’t think it is the doctor’s place to make a moral pronouncement.
Carla,
I will also respond to this:
Is it coercion to NOT tell a woman anything about a procedure that kills her child and can cause physical and emotional harm?
Doesn’t the same go for any reproductive decision then? If I tell my doctor I am going off birth control to try to get pregnant, should she warn me about the possibility of post-partum depression? If I tell my doctor I want to stay on birth control, should she warn me that I might regret it if I never have a child?
Every woman has to make major reproductive decisions, and any one of those could lead to physical problems and immense regret.
Absolutely. Shouldn’t ALL things be discussed? Possible fertility problems, risks etc. with ANY procedure??
How is it choice when nobody is talking about the risks with abortion? How is that an informed choice?? Silly me. I keep forgetting that there ARE NO RISKS WITH ABORTION. Doh.
I am not talking about bed side manner here either. Abortionists are not in the “discussing business.” That is not why they are there! I have had wretched docs as well. My dr. is prolife and acts like he has all the time in the world for me. :)
Please tell me the moral pronouncement again??
It means the world to me that you watched the video. Thank you. I appreciate your kind words as well.
Carla,
Thank you for sharing your experience!
PC,
You are more than welcome. That you actually watched them at all and commented on them is more than some PC do and I applaud you for that.
God bless.