Weekend question
David Bereit, founder of 40 Days for Life, reported this week that of 63 abortion mills pro-lifers conducted 40 days of continuous prayer this spring during Lent – many round-the-clock – 2 have stopped committing abortions and 1 has closed altogether.
Planned Parenthoods in Lincoln, Nebraska, and Council Bluffs, Iowa, have now stopped offering abortion, and Abortion Services, at 200 East Eckerson Road in New York City, closed altogether yesterday.
Several questions. Do you think 40 Days had anything to do with the abortion curtailment, or were these just coincidental incidents? Do you think sustained prayer vigils/pickets at abortion mills can ultimately shut them down by slowing business long enough? Do you think this form of protest is legitimate or harrassment? If you think the latter, do you also disagree with union strikes?
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Yes. But then I hope they stopped praying and actually helped the pregnant women.
Yes, and Amen to Jess… I hope they continue praying, and start helping more…
Jess, pro-lifers DO help pregnant women! We give them referrals to good pro-life doctors, we help them with finances (some donations to local pro-life groups can be specified to help a mother with rent or other expenses). Some or most CPC offer parenting classes. Baby clothes, car seats, there are so many donations of free stuff that these mothers can get.
I am glad the Lincoln abortuary is closed.
I don’t know. I do know that I think one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard of was the massive amount of people down here in Georgia who thought praying during the drought was going to make it rain. (Or, now, make gas prices go down.) Prayer is all well and good, but half the time people turn to prayer so they can feel like they’re actually doing something without lifting a finger.
Jess and SFL, you write out of complete ignorance about the pro-life movement and sidewalk counselors.
“Start helping more”?? You have absolutely no idea what pro-lifers do to help pregnant mothers in crisis. We’re there to help with EVERYTHING from the first moment a need is seen/expressed to well beyond delivery. And you have no idea only because you don’t want to have any idea. You’d rather stand on the sidelines and complain about us to bolster your pathetic pro-abortion position.
Let me ask, what do you – YOU – do to help mothers in crisis pregnancies besides encouraging them to abort, while meanwhile coming here to pick apart pro-lifers?
How much money/time do you – YOU – devote to helping mothers in crisis pregnancies?
Erin:11:30: I don’t know. I do know that I think one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard of was the massive amount of people down here in Georgia who thought praying during the drought was going to make it rain. (Or, now, make gas prices go down.) Prayer is all well and good, but half the time people turn to prayer so they can feel like they’re actually doing something without lifting a finger.
God loves us all and does answer prayers, but your eyes have to be open to see His work. Ask God to help you see His hand in your life and he will show you.
As for praying instead of “lifting a finger”, I don’t know anyone who uses prayer as an excuse to be idle.
Jill, Your “sidewalk counselors” typically scream at and threaten women at clinics, then post their pictures on the internet to embarass them, and encourage violence against them. How exactly does that help women?
One of the Denver screamers, Jo Scott, bragged about giving a woman a silver dollar not to abort, which left her only $149,999 short of the cost of raising her child. The woman figured that out, and returned for an abortion at the next opportunity.
Jill, there are in fact a lot of pro-life people who help with crisis pregnancies and adoption and generously give of their time and money.
The helpers are far too busy to stand outside clinics or homes holding mutilated fetus posters and threatening people. The screamers do that not because they want to “help” but because they are narcissistic personalities, who believe they have the right to threaten and harass others, and force them to follow “orders”- hence the term “anti-choice extremists”.
You wish to blur the distinction between the helpers and the screamers, but the rest of us know who is who, and that the screamers are not only useless to, but counter-productive to the pro-life movement.
I believe these 40 days of prayer have a definite impact on the abortion clinics and on those who pray there as well. It take time for their labors to bear fruit, but the faithful “prayer warriors” are making a difference being witnesses to their faith and showing their concern for the women and men who come to the clinics. Thank God the three clinics you mentioned, Jill, have stopped doing abortions!
Fox Valley Families against Planned Parenthood had their monthly rally this morning with several hundred people attending. Some walked with signs, some prayed, others handed out literature, others collected baby items for local pregnancy centers. It was a well organized event.
StudentFL: Have you ever been to a rally yourself? If not, you should try to go next time in May in Aurora if you are not too far away. There is a church group that comes regularly from quite a distance, almost near the Wisconsin border. Today I overheard the story of a man who took a one hour train ride and then walked another hour just to get to the rally this morning. That’s love and dedication! See http://familiesagainstplannedparenthood.org/index.php for more information.
Erin,
It’s easy to misunderstand the purpose of prayer. And there are different levels of prayer, too, at least in the Catholic tradition. I couldn’t possibly do justice to the subject; countless saints have written on the topic.
anon:12:05:
Have you actually been to a clinic? Where?
But Erin, since you’ve pointed out the futility of praying for rain, I am curious as to whether you can answer Jill’s question: did prayer have any effect on the closing of those facilities?
Another curio: On the day of your termination, were there counselors outside willing to help you and Dan?
Here is a satirical ad from a liberal
website.You anti-choicers will be very offended,
but it certainly shows the hypocrisy of anti-choice citizens and politicians:
New GOP Political AD:
Since the onslaught of RoevWade millions of
innocent children have been murdered by deranged
abortionists who refuse to accept the fact that victims of rape and incest must be forced to
carry their unplanned children to full term.
As a result,thousands,or even tens of thousands
of republican pedophiles have been denied the right to assault children who might otherwise have been the unwilling victims of the greedy
old perverts.This Novermber,you can support
the timee-honored belief that the unborn are
sacred,but that children are not.
Send a clear and resounding message that we
need to end abortion so that republican pedophiles will have more children to molest.
Keep women in their place and support the rising tide of conservative sexual assault
against minors.
Vote early.Vote Often.Vote Republican.
This ad was paid for by Puritans Endorsing
Reactionary Views(PERV).
Offensive?Disgusting? Outrageous?
Over the top? Vile? Perhaps,but it certainly
its points.
2 Chronicles 7:14
Then if my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land.
Robert:
YOU are twisted.
Jill I’m sorry I didn’t mean it to come off that way. I know their are many dedicated sidewalk councilors who help women so much. I’m just saying more people should do what they do and put their money where their mouth is, so to speak. Instead of just complaining about something get out there and change it! Even just sharing your views on this blog is helping. Keep it up.
My Mom and I did a rain dance when I was young and it rained. You guys probably don’t want to hear that but yeah, there is definitely some power in prayer, IMO.
And I don’t come here with the intention of picking apart the pro-life movement, it’s a good movement for the most part. I do try to help friends I know dealing with crisis pregnancies by helping them get all the facts and maybe giving my two cents if they ask for it. And no I don’t try to get anyone to abort. I actually had a friend who identified as pro-life and she thought she was pregnant and was thinking about abortion. I said, “Well you were pro-life before you thought you were pregnant, will you be pro-life after? If you think abortion is wrong then you’ll probably regret aborting.” Luckily it was just a false alarm.
Anon @ 12:05,
Slowly but surely, over the years the dialog has changed. If you were around in the early 70’s you may recall the nonsense about “globs of tissue.” Now adult pc’ers recognise that there is no such thing as a glob of tissue. One of the reasons for this are pictures of babies that have been destroyed by abortion. No globs of tissue these.
If a person were to participate in a war protest and display mangled bobies of war victims would that be considered “narcissitic?” Indeed, if narcisssim is anywhere it is most evident in a culture that sacrifices its young on the altar of abortion. It is also reflected in the fact that one in four teen girls have STD’s.
There probably is no convincing a lot of pc’ers that 99.99% of pro-lifers are not at all interesting in making expectant mothers feel anything but loved. We are regularly calumnied and our message destorted by an overly aggressive and highly irritated pc crowd that doesn’t really want to hear the pro-life message in the first place.
Speaking of bluring distinctions and the such, it is a two-way street. For every one so called pro-life screamer (which are actually quite rare) you can be assured there are far, far more real screamers which pro-lifers encounter on a regular basis. They have a very predictable behavior pattern–laying on the horn, yelling obscenities from the window, and flashing the universal IQ sign.
Jerry,
“Now adult pc’ers recognise that there is no such thing as a glob of tissue.”
Not exactly true. Many proaborts on this blog believe this EXACTLY. Hier. still believes that a unborn child remains undifferentiated cells well into pregnancy. Doug believes that the unborn baby is without sentience and therefore can be aborted at any time until the woman determines that sentience exists for her baby. TR believes that it is an insensate blob of tissue.
They cling to this notion so as to avoid the concept of personhood. A nonperson can be extinquished, snuffed at the merest desire. Which is how Michael Schaivo won – he managed to convince a lot of people that the lights were on but nobody was home. I have a feeling he’s in for the surpise of his life, after death.
“There probably is no convincing a lot of pc’ers that 99.99% of pro-lifers are not at all interesting in making expectant mothers feel anything but loved.”
I’m convinced. And I want to hear the pro-life message. Tell me Jerry, I’m listening : )
Since abortion is largely a spiritual ill, prayer is probaby the most powerful weapon.
Offensive?Disgusting? Outrageous?
Over the top? Vile? Perhaps,but it certainly
its points.
Posted by: robert berger at April 26, 2008 12:57 PM
– – – – –
and the points are ????? when pointing a finger, it’s always humbling to notice there are three more fingers pointed right back.
Roger,
Since the onslaught of RoevWade millions of
innocent children have been murdered by deranged
abortionists who refuse to accept the fact that victims of rape and incest must be forced to
carry their unplanned children to full term.?
If 45 million women have become pregnant due to rape and incest, then the problem is much bigger than we thought. Do you really think that if 45 million women have been raped by strangers or relatives that abortion is an answer? Where are all these rapists and perpetrators of incest? Walking free, because the “evidence” of their crimes have been aborted?
2 Chronicles 7:14
Then if my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land.
Hisman,
That was BEAUTIFUL!
carder- no, I do not believe that prayer made anything close. I don’t think prayer does ANYTHING. I think people do things, and they should realize that they are strong enough to do them WITHOUT the support of prayer.
Erin said: “I think people do things, and they should realize that they are strong enough to do them WITHOUT the support of prayer.”
On one of his old broadcasts from the 1950s, Bishop Fulton J. Sheen was explaining the Catholic belief that people who are not Christians can still be saved, and how that is possible. He said, there are many people in the world who are good and who are not Christian. They do great works throughout the lives, and take care of their fellow man. But it isn’t until they die that they come to understand that all along, they were doing the will of Jesus Christ, who wrote His Truth upon their hearts.
Hier. still believes that a unborn child remains undifferentiated cells well into pregnancy.
Posted by: Patricia at April 26, 2008 1:53 PM
*blink*
That’s news to me.
This is what I recall happening. You made a statement that seemed to say that the potential child is never a mass of cells at any point in the pregnancy. All I said was that at certain stages of development, it most certainly is a mass of cells, and at other stages, it isn’t.
I don’t think prayer has any effect on anyone who doesn’t believe in the power of prayer. Kind of like voodoo.
Hiero- research suggests that prayer doesn’t do any good even if you do believe in it.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12082681/
Erin,
Erin said: “I think people do things, and they should realize that they are strong enough to do them WITHOUT the support of prayer.”
Erin,
If I were you, I’d stay away from drugs and alcohol. God forbid you ever have to enter the program…you’d fail miserably.
@MK: Did you get my e-mail I sent yesterday?
Humans: Prayer-like consciousness has been shown to inhibit the growth of cancer cells, protect red blood cells, alter blood chemistry, and increase blood oxygenation. In one study, skin wounds healed at a much greater rate when treated with a spirituality-related treatment (perhaps a therapy option for pressure sores).
In a controversial study carried out by cardiologist Randolph Byrd (Southern Medical Journal, July 1988), nearly 400 heart patients were randomly assigned to either a group that was prayed for by a home prayer group or a control group. This was a methodologically rigorous double-blind study designed to eliminate the psychological placebo effect. In such a study, neither the patient nor doctor knows who is receiving the intervention (i.e., prayer). Patients who received prayer had better health outcomes, including a reduced need for antibiotics and a lower incidence of pulmonary edema.
Prayer researcher Jack Stucki has carried out double-blind studies evaluating the effects of distant prayer on the body
Rae,
I think so? I sent a reply, didn’t I? I’ll resend it…hang on.
It’s like Richard Swinburne suggested. Say you’re a big philanthropist who gives money to some charities that ask you for money. You then find out that there are several charities who are in a competition to see who can receive the most money from you or if you will give them money at all. They recruit hundreds of people to write you letters, petitioning you to donate to certain charities. If you are aware that the motivation behind asking for donations is not the good that the charity does in and of itself, yet seeing if their charity can “win” the contest, wouldn’t you feel less obliged to donate to that charity?
MK- there are many wonderful secular organizations for coping with addiction, including one called Save Our Selves (S.O.S), a secular sobriety program.
You don’t need god to beat addiction.
I know some of you would be glad to hear this so I thought I’d post it.
Went to church today. It wasn’t of my own accord, as some may predict, but as always I enjoyed it and felt the ache about how much I wish I could just disregard some pieces and join the Church and just pray for forgiveness each day, but that’s not too realistic nor is it really fair and its pretty much just beating the system. I was a bit overwhelmed at one part though, they said a prayer explicitly for the people who had left the faith (though I wouldn’t say I’ve fully left it per se, many of my thoughts are still pretty Catholic in origin) but it was a bit…I dunno how to really describe it. Odd? Overwhelming? I dunno, there’s really no describing it, feeling like you’re being prayed for by a bunch of people you dont know in a state you’ve been in for less than a week, etc. Just made me think about my beliefs etc and just hw much I wish I could sincerely rejoin the Church, but given some of my political beliefs its not possible, perhaps some day the Church will agree with me, but I doubt it, lol.
and Rae, how go finals? Can’t wait til you’re able to make a post :)
@Dan: Still a couple weeks till finals, but I am working on something about health care and the lab technician shortage.
Ohhh healthcare, that must be fun, esp with all the talk on it now
carder- no, I do not believe that prayer made anything close. I don’t think prayer does ANYTHING. I think people do things, and they should realize that they are strong enough to do them WITHOUT the support of prayer.
Posted by: Erin at April 26, 2008 5:06 PM
————
@Erin,
perhaps this is far too easy (and normative) an answer for a skeptic. For a ‘different understanding’ – “Man’s Search For Meaning” by Viktor Frankl and google “Psychology Today” prayer Baruch …. all kinds of stuff.
One experiment done repeatedly at UCLA – Burkley had people praying to heal some lesions on lab mice … they don’t know how but prayer does work … fto make sure of no interference, the test-mice were 150 miles from the ‘pray-ers’ + these people did not even know their ‘test-target’.
Power of prayer flunks an unusual test
Large study had Christians pray for heart-surgery patients
updated 3:23 p.m. CT, Thurs., March. 30, 2006
NEW YORK – In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.
The work, which followed about 1,800 patients at six medical centers, was financed by the Templeton Foundation, which supports research into science and religion. It will appear in the American Heart Journal.
Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School and other scientists tested the effect of having three Christian groups pray for particular patients, starting the night before surgery and continuing for two weeks. The volunteers prayed for “a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications” for specific patients, for whom they were given the first name and first initial of the last name.
Erin, Those who pray know they should ask only that God’s will to be done in a situation and not make demands of God. This study proves God’s will is not always the same as ours. It doesn’t prove prayer has no effect. The outcomes for some of these people without prayer could have been even worse.
@Dan: Yeah, I heard about that shortage, and the fact that starting pay is $50,000 earlier this week and now I’m in the process of applying to the “Clinical Laboratory Science” program at my school and do that once I finish my microbiology degree next spring (or even start in this up-coming fall and forego the microbiology degree).
My 6:52 post came from Erin’s link from 6:28:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12082681/
*whistles* fifty grand, not bad for a first job coming out of college.
I’m likely gunna be screwed, lol. Average salary for a Poli Sci degree is 32,000 a year. Maybe if I get lucky I’ll get picked up by a campaign or something and make my way slowly up the ladder.
although Janet, prayers can help people through the toughest of circumstances, this has been proven over and over again.
Dan: 6:46:
God bless you Dan. Don’t stop! I’ll be praying for you, (even though I’m pretty much a stranger, hope you don’t mind:) Thanks for sharing. Wonderful news!
That’s great, Dan! I am convinced that this is not just some coincidence. Pray on your feelings, Dan. I know you have some monumental disagreements with some of the Church’s teachings. You mentioned “politically” and I’m pretty sure I know what you mean by that. Have you ever really just sat down and taken the time to read what the Church has to say about some of those issues or what some main line apologists have had to say about some of those issues? If the RCC is where the truth is, then it may take divine faith to submit yourself to some of the teachings that you don’t accept or understand.
But I think this means something. Keep studying and learning, Dan. You’re my prayers. And of course, I’m always here if you want to discuss anything further, not that I”m some great know-it-all guru… God love you.
although Janet, prayers can help people through the toughest of circumstances, this has been proven over and over again.
Posted by: jasper at April 26, 2008 6:58 PM
What “this” are you talking about? Be more specific?
Thanks for the prayers guys, but I’m not to sure about this being progress perse. I fundamentally disagree in areas like abortion and sex ed just to name some that typically come up here, and I dont see that changing all that much. Even if I personally remained abstinant or would want anyone I get pregnant to keep the child, I would still adamantly push for both pro choice policies and comprehensive sex ed. Maybe I’m weird, maybe itd be considered blasphemous, but that’s how it is. It’s how I view these as what are more realistic solutions to those problems, the world isnt ideal, nor should I be forcing my religious convictions on everyone else, they should have the right to make up their own mind and make their own choices, esp in regard to sex and reproductive health.
Erin said: “I think people do things, and they should realize that they are strong enough to do them WITHOUT the support of prayer.”
On one of his old broadcasts from the 1950s, Bishop Fulton J. JohnL:6:21: Sheen was explaining the Catholic belief that people who are not Christians can still be saved, and how that is possible. He said, there are many people in the world who are good and who are not Christian. They do great works throughout the lives, and take care of their fellow man. But it isn’t until they die that they come to understand that all along, they were doing the will of Jesus Christ, who wrote His Truth upon their hearts.
Very nice.
RE: 7:08 post,
“JohnL:6:21:” should have appeared at the top of the post, not between “Fulton J.” and “Sheen”. Sorry!
Patricia: Doug believes that the unborn baby is without sentience and therefore can be aborted at any time until the woman determines that sentience exists for her baby.
No, that’s in your Mind. I never said that.
@Dan: You know, I just started going back to church and I plan to start taking RCIA classes in the fall.
I don’t think comprehensive sex education is necessarily *against* Catholicism…sure it’s not “endorsed”, but I don’t think it’s totally *not* kosher. I could be wrong though.
For what it’s worth, on the AOSE and CSE-topic, one of my online friends and I have come up with a sex ed program that emphasizes abstinence but also teaches about contraceptives:
“This would be for high school aged kids. Class would be at least 1 hour every week. It would be graded with homework and tests. Boys and girls would be separated. (Those are things that I think are required for kids to take the class seriously and to actually have a lasting impact).
Units:
1. Abstinence
why it is the only way to guarantee you don
Rae-
see, that’s what comprehensive sex ed ought to be, lol.
I know condom use etc is not kosher, so I would assume pushing comprehensive sex ed wouldn’t be either, kinda like being pro life personally but advocating for pro choice laws.
Rae-
I dunno bout tme frame though, covering every STD is gunna take a lot of time.
Alright, my time’s up so I gotta go. Hopefully I’ll be back on around the same time tomorrow night.
Have a nice night all, and God bless :)
@Dan: It’s supposed to be a year-long program.
Very well, Erin, prayer’s a waste of time.
Would you be able to answer the other question on my 12:20 pm post?
I took Child Development in high school. Not too many guys in that class. ;) It was cool learning about the differences in the fraternal and identical twins thing at conception. And later on some of the class were able to bring in real babies (like a nephew or niece or a younger cousin or maybe a friend’s baby). That was a lot of fun.
Prayer DOES work. If you read some of the testimonies of women who change their minds about abortion, you’ll see they say “if it wasn’t for the prayers of those Christians outside”….
Prayer is VERY powerful. Sometimes I have to pray when I lose an item in my house. Then I suddenly remember to check some place. Saint Anthony (some of my fellow Catholics may know what I’m referring to) sometimes has a crazy sense of humor. I was looking for a gift card I had misplaced the other day. I looked on my slightly messy dining room table again and there it was.
Prayer is very powerful if you are sincere.
Erin:
I assume that you assume that prayer does not work because there is no God.
Well you’re right, to a degree.
Prayer will never work for you because you have no faith and without faith it is impossible to please God. I requirement for prayer to be answered is that one believe that he will receive an answer. God is no fool, nor does he cast his pearls before swine.
A person who doesn’t pray is one who is most to be pitied.
In the transition from the here and now to the eternal, when you realize that you have merely passed from one state to another, it will be most frightening to realize that you are crying out and the only one hearing it is you, wrapped in yourself, found alone in yourself, with yourself, all alone, forever. That would be hellish.
In college I was a psychology major. I thought prayer was all psychological and based on the self fulfilling prophecy type stuff.
Then, I decided to pray to know God and ask him into my life if he was real and out there.
In time I began to believe that God was real and that he loved me and that He wanted me to pray.
Prayers are not always answered the way I want them answered, but today I believe my prayers are of benefit and that it is good for me and others that I pray.
Just a simple prayer … God help me know you if you are out there …
“Walking free, because the “evidence” of their crimes have been aborted?”
So are you saying sexual crimes can only be prosecuted if they result in pregnancy?
I’m pretty sure all men are created equal covers EVERYONE! Even women, tho it doesn’t actually say so.And before you say that that had to be clarified too, let me say that I think THAT was ridiculous and self evident also.
It not only did not include women, really, it didn’t include many minorities, non-landowning men, etc.>/i>
Doug, I know that it didn’t say that originally. That’s the point. I find it ridiculous that it HAD to be clarified. But we now UNDERSTAND/ACCEPT it to mean women, blacks etc.
I find it pathetic that it wasn’t understood from the beginning. Now that the law encompassed women and blacks, we have a new understanding of the words.
ALL MEN/WOMEN/CHILDREN/BLACK/WHITE/TALL/FAT/SMART/DUMB/
BLUE EYED/MIDGETS…EVERYONE, is endowed by their CREATOR with the same rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Just as I find it ridiculous that we had to clarify women and blacks back then, I find it ridiculous that we have to explicitly clarify the unborn.
You say, non-sentient, non viable, unwanted fetuses are expendable and not covered under the DOL because of location and desirablility, and I say RIDICULOUS.
Why should this group of people need to be listed seperately? Blacks aren’t listed seperately. Women aren’t listed seperately. Midgets aren’t listed seperately.
No need to list the unborn seperately. They are included. Not 200 years ago. But today. The fact that they are not is insane.
Dan,
I dunno, there’s really no describing it, feeling like you’re being prayed for by a bunch of people you dont know in a state you’ve been in for less than a week, etc.
If only you knew how many of us Catholics get together off site and say Novenas for you right here on Jills I think you’d be shocked.
I actually carry yours and others from Jills on a slip of lavender paper and pull it out and read it at the consecration of every mass I’ve been to since coming to Jills.
You’re being prayed for by strangers in other states a lot more often than you know. Why do you think you keep thinking about it? :) As a matter of fact, “we” just finished a Novena this Wednesday. And I’ll be pulling out my slip of paper in about 3 hours from now…
Erin,
Could you site some sources that give statistics on the effectiveness of SOS?
Jess,
You’re killin’ me…
So are you saying sexual crimes can only be prosecuted if they result in pregnancy?
No, I’m saying that according to Rogers post, 45 million women have been raped, resulting in pregnancy, and that THEIR perpetrators are walking free because they destroyed the evidence.
What I was really pointing out was the outrageousness of the statement that millions of women are having abortions due to rape and incest.
This is simply not true. Less than 1% of abortions are done for reasons of rape.
His “article” was a lie. And I was simply using sarcasm (Here I was speaking as a Fool :)) to point it out.
Patricia: Doug believes that the unborn baby is without sentience and therefore can be aborted at any time until the woman determines that sentience exists for her baby.
No, that’s in your Mind. I never said that.
Posted by: Doug at April 26, 2008 7:13 PM
Doug: You believe abortion is okay until sentience exists. Since we really don’t know when that is, in essence, what you are advocating is really unrestricted abortion. It will be when the woman determines it will be, as a matter of convience. Just as abortions done for “health” reasons were determined by everything from hangnails to emotional trauma. You’ve claimed that movement in the womb by the unborn is without purpose, merely reflex. You’ve denied the very humanity of the unborn child for mere convenience.
MK: the “Roger statement” is soooo ridiculous that it’s almost not even worth rebutting. Women get abortions because they have a contraceptive failure, the baby is an inconvenience in an easy convenient lifestyle or they have been coerced to some degree.
Nice post on prayer too, MK. My goodness, I pray for people who blog who’ve had a terrible tragedy – there’s two I’m working on these days. Both have had unexpected deaths in their families and are having a terrible time coping.
Patricia,
If you want to join the Novena group (and this is for any other Catholics out there) just email me…
Doug,
You need to recognize that you base your belief system on “desire” but many of us don’t. We often choose things that go against our desire, because we believe in objective morality. We choose to do what is “right” regardless of what we “want”.
You don’t.
Which is fine. But at least recognize that not everyone lives their lives by the “do what you desire” rule. Even given the fact that we, in the end, desire to choose what is right, we are still basing our choices on rational thought as opposed to feelings.
By reducing morality to desire you are opening up a system of justice where the mighty prevail regardless of what is “best” for all.
I realize that you do not believe it is possible to know what is best for all, but in certain circumstances, some people DO think it is possible to know.
We KNOW that in all circumstances rape is “bad” regardless of desire. Theft is bad. Murder is bad. And we believe that taking human life, because of ones desires is objectively “bad”…we would even say evil.
Granted these are metaphysical ideas, but as many of us live by metaphysical law, objective truth, to us, is a reality.
mk 8:13: Granted these are metaphysical ideas, but as many of us live by metaphysical law, objective truth, to us, is a reality.
mk: Hmmm…that reminds me…I’ll try to get back to you as I promised..Sorry I’m so late!
MK:
What Doug and most others today operate on is feelings. IF it feels good or right then it must be so, it must be morally right.
This relativistic pap was taught from the 1960’s onward. There are no moral absolutes according to this way of irrational thinking.
The result is chaos in virtually all areas of society today. If people reason in a disorder, irrational way, they will act this way too.
Patricia:7:36: You have the anti-sentience argument down pat! I may have to copy it to my pro-life folder.
mk: Nice posts this morning! Can I be on one of your prayer lists too?
Liz: 9:13: Amen!
HisMan: You and your family are in my prayers. God bless you.
Dan: An RCIA class might be to your liking, some churches have classes year ’round, but be sure to find a good “Orthodox” Catholic church or you may leave more confused than when you started.
Carder- sorry, I missed the other question. On the way in, no, there were no protesters or ‘sidewalk counselors’. I don’t know about the way out. I was pretty doped up then. But there was a cop there the whole time preventing anyone without an appointment from getting into the building.
Rae, don’t forget about the guys in your sex-ed post. Yes, girls typically go to the gynecologist a bit more often than men, but guys should get checked out every once in awhile too, ESPECIALLY for STD testing. So be sure to make them know what it’ll be like… so they don’t get all weird about having a doctor touch their penis and whatever. :)
I’ll chime in on the weekend questions.
Let’s look at it this way. In many businesses, “there’s no such thing as bad news” is the operative wisdom. A starlet gets bad press, and her agent waxes jubilant. An activist’s gaffe makes the front page, and the press is falling over themselves to interview others in the movement, who seize the opportunity by distancing themselves from the gaffe and smelling like roses. And so forth.
So I’d answer the question with another question — does the kind of publicity given abortion clinics by protesters permit clinics to use fewer of their advertising dollars? Do such actions lower the hurdles such businesses face in getting the word out about their services?
If any abortion clinics are closing at all, it’s certainly not evident that there’s no such thing as bad press for the slaying of the unborn.
“Rae, don’t forget about the guys in your sex-ed post. Yes, girls typically go to the gynecologist a bit more often than men, but guys should get checked out every once in awhile too, ESPECIALLY for STD testing. So be sure to make them know what it’ll be like… so they don’t get all weird about having a doctor touch their penis and whatever. :)”
@Edyt: Thanks! I’ll let my friend Ro know about that. :)
Prayer and protesting both work. It is primarily a spiritual battle though because many of these people seeking abortions were baptized Christian and have lost their faith.
Patricia: Doug believes that the unborn baby is without sentience and therefore can be aborted at any time until the woman determines that sentience exists for her baby.
“No, that’s in your Mind. I never said that.”
You believe abortion is okay until sentience exists. Since we really don’t know when that is, in essence, what you are advocating is really unrestricted abortion.
Wrong. Sentience is there for most fetuses during the weeks in the late 20s. I also didn’t say it was up to the woman to determine it.
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It will be when the woman determines it will be, as a matter of convience. Just as abortions done for “health” reasons were determined by everything from hangnails to emotional trauma.
No, it’s not that the woman “determines sentience.” There is only a very small rate third-trimester abortions already, for example, and that’s for all reasons.
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You’ve claimed that movement in the womb by the unborn is without purpose, merely reflex.
Wrong again. You are either deliberately lying or simply not thinking clearly.
To a point in gestation any movement is reflexive. That is the correct way to say it. Prior to that, the nervous system isn’t complete enough for impulses to get to or from the areas of the brain where conscious awareness lies. Nor are those areas developed or operational in that way anyway.
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You’ve denied the very humanity of the unborn child for mere convenience.
No, you pretend that bumper-sticker type stuff is rational argument. I agree with you that the unborn in this argument are human. They are just as human as us. No difference on that score, it’s not at issue, it’s not the argument.
You need to recognize that you base your belief system on “desire” but many of us don’t. We often choose things that go against our desire, because we believe in objective morality. We choose to do what is “right” regardless of what we “want”.
MK, it’s still all the same thing. No, you really don’t choose things which go against your desire. If you did desire them the most, you’d do them. Even if you ascribe a thing to a supernatural diety, etc., it still comes down to your conception of it.
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You don’t. Which is fine. But at least recognize that not everyone lives their lives by the “do what you desire” rule. Even given the fact that we, in the end, desire to choose what is right, we are still basing our choices on rational thought as opposed to feelings.
Nope, it all starts with feelings. I don’t say “do what you desire” on an individual basis without regard for others, etc. I’m fine with most of the social contract, etc., – things that are implied in society.
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By reducing morality to desire you are opening up a system of justice where the mighty prevail regardless of what is “best” for all.
It’s not “reducing” it, it’s seeing that it all does go to desire, as with the abortion debate itself.
I am not for a monarch, for example, who goes against what most people want, on most issues. As far as “the mighty,” there will be a sufficient opinion – sufficient to make law, regardless of whether it comes from the majority or not. In a society, something will prevail, and maybe you or I agree with it or not.
I’m generally for what will bring the most happiness.
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I realize that you do not believe it is possible to know what is best for all, but in certain circumstances, some people DO think it is possible to know.
I’m saying the best is what leads to the most happiness, so I think I’m on the same page with you there – even if we believe different things, etc. – even if you think people are going to end up going to Hell and being unhappy.
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We KNOW that in all circumstances rape is “bad” regardless of desire. Theft is bad. Murder is bad. And we believe that taking human life, because of ones desires is objectively “bad”…we would even say evil. Granted these are metaphysical ideas, but as many of us live by metaphysical law, objective truth, to us, is a reality.
Well, I’d say you live or try to live by your beliefs, which is really what we all do.
I disagree on the “knowing” of bad, etc., without regard to desire. I think you don’t want people to be raped, and you don’t want people to rape. Without “somebody” caring, one way or another, there would not be any “bad” or “good” or “right” or “wrong” in the moral realm, because they are thoughts to begin with.
What Doug and most others today operate on is feelings. IF it feels good or right then it must be so, it must be morally right.
Patricia, it’s all the same deal. And even if you say a thing “comes from God” or “is the best for all people,” it still boils down to you wanting it the most, or else you’re not going to do it.
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This relativistic pap was taught from the 1960’s onward. There are no moral absolutes according to this way of irrational thinking.
Wrong. It’s always been true that morality is subjective. By definition it’s thoughts and feelings of good/bad/right/wrong. It’s internal to the mind, not external to it.
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The result is chaos in virtually all areas of society today. If people reason in a disorder, irrational way, they will act this way too.
It’s always been the case that some people wring their hands and moan about “the state of things…”
Patricia said : The result is chaos in virtually all areas of society today. If people reason in a disorder, irrational way, they will act this way too.
Doug said:8:50: It’s always been the case that some people wring their hands and moan about “the state of things…”
…..I’m generally for what will bring the most happiness.
Handwringing and moaning about the state of things is not what Patricia has in mind.
If living by subjective morality is the best way for everyone, at what age should we start teaching this “subjective morality”? Can you ask your wife who is a teacher, if she would start at birth, or kindergarten, or junior high, high school? Generally, if you want someone to learn something, you have to start young, right?
And what happens when we tell our school kids that their happiness is all that matters? I’ll bet the parents of those children would have a heart attack if they found out their teacher is teaching subjective morality.
Subjective morality must be good for ALL of us in society if it is indeed good, unless that too, is subjective.
Janet, it’s not that we are “choosing” ways, here, it’s that morality is subjective, that’s just the way it operates, since it is feelings, thoughts, opinions, etc., and since it resides in the mind, not apart from it.
I’m not saying “do whatever you want without regard for what others want,” I’m saying that morality comes from desire. The things we teach kids, as parents and as teachers, are commonly felt around the world with few people feeling differently, often. Most laws in most countries are similar, due to that commonality of desire.
You could certainly say that it’s objective fact that the commonality of desire exists.
As far as “all of us in society,” then I agree that things should be good for all, or at least aimed at more people versus less, if the “all” is impossible in a given instance.
Don’t you think there has to be “somebody” caring one way or another, wanting things to be this or, that, before there would be any morality?
No, Doug, I think people are inherently self-centered and lazy, and with subjective morality alone, the world would be in shambles, to put it bluntly.
Well, J, it’s “in shambles” now, to hear some people talk about it… ; )
Yes, we are inherently self-centered, and our desires come from the self. We act upon that which we want the most, be it because we’re hungry for ice cream or because we believe it comes from God, etc.
Also, being in a “shambles” means that there is somebody who cares, a consciousness that desires things to be otherwise. Once again – without a
somebody” to have feelings of “good” and “bad,” etc., there would be no morality.
Doug 2:45: Don’t you think there has to be “somebody” caring one way or another, wanting things to be this or, that, before there would be any morality?
I think objective truth to a degree is perceived consciously or subconsciously by all of us. I think some people have the ability to perceive objective truth more clearly than others. Maybe that’s why some people see morality as black and white anad others, gray. I’d say morality exists “somewhere out there” before we can make it our own. We sense it and apply it to our life’s decisions.
I’d say morality exists “somewhere out there” before we can make it our own.
Okay Janet, and then is it that you see the “out there” as being God?
It’s fine if you do – that would still fit with the idea of a consciousness having the feelings in the first place.
IMO there has to be “somebody” making the valuations, etc., before there could be any such thing as morality.
Doug7:27:
So, you make a good case for the existence of God. Good job!:)
Janet, I don’t think it’s making a case for God, but since there isn’t proof of “no God” then I certainly include a god and any other “higher” beings than us earthly humans in those who could fill the roll of “somebody.”