New Stanek WND column, “June 7: The Pill Kills Day”
June 7, 1965, was an important day in American history.
On that day, the U.S. Supreme Court found a “right to privacy” in the Constitution in its Griswold v. Connecticut decision, which allowed Planned Parenthood operator Estelle Griswold to sell birth control pills
legally that she had been selling illegally.
Griswold was cited eight years later in the Supreme Court’s Roe v. Wade decision.
But I digress. Well, maybe not.
Did you know the birth control pill can cause chemical abortions?
No, probably not, unless you’re a radical pro-lifer like me, or a radical pro-abort. We all know.
But radical pro-aborts don’t want you to know. And they call us theNeanderthals….
So the American Life League is launching Protest the Pill Day ’08: The Pill Kills Babies this Saturday, June 7….
The National Organization for Women is planning counter protests. I wonder how much they’re paying picketers, since they only seem to arouse paid personnel to demonstrate against us, particularly on a Saturday. I’m always embarrassed for them.
Continue reading my column today, “June 7: The Pill Kills Day,” on WorldNetDaily.com.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
In the late 1980’s when I was first married I worked in the Admissions office of one of our universities. The staff was entirely female. After a short time there, maybe about 4 months, I began to notice that almost every WEEK, at least one of the women would complain about how she had to come off the pill because of some serious side effect – severe cramping, severe migraines, etc. Something, always something. They would move from one type of pill to another.Sometimes they would run out of options.
One day, one of the women, looked at me and said,”Why don’t you ever complain about the pill?” What are you using?”
When I explained that I was using NFP (my ex was a law student at the time) and that we were going to wait for about a year before having kids – they were flabbergasted.
Without exception, every single one of those women began to mock me and make fun of me – but none more than the “Catholic” woman in the office.
Today I can look back and be thankful that I insisted upon this method. It was safe and natural and I had the wonderful benefit of knowing not only that my body was working properly but knowing HOW it worked!
I think women have suffered greatly because of the pill – it has not freed them from pregnancy – it has enslaved them to men’s sexual desires. Today, women no longer have the option to say no in a relationship. Oh, they can say, but they won’t have the guy anymore.
I’ll probably get alot of flak from many on this board, but that’s based on my experience and that of my friends (most of whom at one time or another used the pill).
The pill sucks.
I personally believe there’s one thing responsible for the objectification and demeaning of women… CONTRACEPTION. Sure you might say pornography, too, but it’s the pill that frees men of all accountability to be men and protect women. The pill gives him license to treat her physically (sexual abuse) and mentally (pornography) for his own means of self-gratification.
Eventually women think they’re empowering themselves by consenting to these behaviors, when in fact they’re complicit with men in endangering the welfare of her sons and daughters… present and future.
*pops Yaz*
Mmmmmmmmm…
Cranky Catholic,
Amen, Amen and Amen!
Patricia,
Who did you learn NFP from? CCL?
It’s hard b/c so many women today take some form of contraception. It’s rare to meet one who doesn’t.
CC, I do agree with you on that one.
Patricia or CC, what do you say to the woman who wants to be on the pill? I know an engaged woman at work. She’s getting married in October. She says she’s not ready for children. What do you say to that woman?
I LOVE NFP! It’s the greatest “contraception” ever!
I shudder to think what all of those synthetic hormones do to a developing girls body. How young do they start em on the pill? 12?
Carla or Kristen, hi. I ean, how do you sop birth control. How would you talk to that woman?
oops mean and stop didn’t print right.
I had my tubes tied at 23 and STILL take a low-dose pill.
I like not having mood swings.
I like not retaining water like Hoover Dam.
I like having fat hair and pretty skin.
I like being able to scoot periods around to suit my schedule.
But most of all, I like that the pill helps stave off ovarian cancer – the only type of cancer that pops up in my family.
I like it because it’s convenient, but I know a bazillion women who couldn’t function without it.
(Heck, the combination of Zoloft and Seasonale turned one of my coworkers into a human being…)
This is ridiculous, and I think this sort of disregard for science and judgemental-dare I say downright stupid-attitude reflects badly upon the entire pro-life movement.
“I think women have suffered greatly because of the pill – it has not freed them from pregnancy – it has enslaved them to men’s sexual desires. Today, women no longer have the option to say no in a relationship. Oh, they can say, but they won’t have the guy anymore.”
Because women NEVER have ANY sexual desires themselves, amirite? *eye roll* There is something severely wrong with you if you lack the common sense to not date such a slimeball he would break up with you if you said “no”. I really think some of your messed up views are probably due to some deep seated problem that also makes you hate men and feel bitter about relationships. Hating men/relationships doesn’t make you an empowered woman. Please, for everyone else’s sake and your own, follow these easy steps: 1.) Find a nice guy who you love but don’t feel you MUST have constantly in your life. 2.) Live your life how you want to, regardless of anything he says or does. 3.) If he sticks around anyway, congratulations, you have the makings of a great relationship, feel free to start giving him considerations. If not, lather/rinse/repeat until you find one who does. 4.)????? 5.)PROFIT
Oh, and I looked up NFP on wiki, and am horrified by this statement: “as well as acts intended to end in orgasm outside the context of intercourse” No wonder you seem so unhappy. :(
Seriously, I feel embarassed and sad to be pro-life right now. I guess it’s just the burden of someone who is pro-life via science rather than religion. Really. lern 2 science, plx. Birth control works in quite a few ways, but aborting an in-progress pregnancy is not one of those. First, it keeps an egg from even being released so it can’t be fertilized in the first place. Also, it thickens mucus, preventing spermatozoans from swimming their little ways up to an egg, even if it WAS there. Lastly, it thins the uterine wall to keep an egg which has been fertilized (which shouldn’t be there anyway) from implanting. You can mix all the sperm and eggs you want, all day long, but if those never implant into a uterine wall, all you end up with is a mess. THOSE ARE NOT AND WILL NEVER BE BABIES. EVER. *sings “Every Sperm Is Sacred” while laughing hysterically*
“The pill gives him license to treat her physically (sexual abuse) and mentally (pornography) for his own means of self-gratification. ”
I don’t care WHAT pill I may or may not be taking…my husband will NEVER have a “license” to abuse me, and you have problems if you don’t have enough figurative juevos to be able to say “Hey, I don’t like that, don’t do that to me.”
UGH.
Heather, I’d tell that woman the same thing I tell my friends. I know exactly when I can and can’t get pregnant. It would help her when she does want to get pregnant, no side effects, no forgetting to take something. It’s easy and 100% safe.
I have a couple friends who got pregnant using the Pill or condoms but I’ve never had an “oops.”
Honestly I’d like another baby but my hubby is feeling the financial strain of 6 and would prefer not to have anymore. I think he knows my cycle better than I do so I couldn’t slip an “oops” past him even if I wanted to. ;)
Also, there’s a girl I went to grade school with who smoked and took the Pill. She was 33 and had a stroke. I know there are a ton of warnings about smoking and BC but no one thinks it will happen to them. She survived but is now 38 and has had years of rehab and is still not the same. I don’t know if the woman you know smokes but if she does tell her to seek out and talk to someone who has had a stroke.
Kristen, that’s awful about that lady. Thanks for the advice. I just don’t see many women parting with their contraception. Even married women use it.
My first question to the engaged woman would be, “Why are you getting married?” If you’re not ready to have children, then why be married?
Caffeine and stress can both prevent implantaion – as well as cause miscarriages.
When are you gonna have “Coffee Kills Day?”
How about “The DMV Kills DAY?” (Lord know the stress I’ve experienced at the DMV.)
Posted by: xalisae at June 5, 2008 8:23 AM
Hmm… I don’t think I said anything about religion in my reasons for using NFP, but whatever.
And just to clear up the religious thing you brought up, if an egg is fertilized in the pro-life realm that is a life and if the Pill prevents implantation that would be “aborting an in progress pregnancy” to more pro-lifers than not on this board.
You’re embarassed to be pro-life? That is sad. I’m embarassed to have you on our side if you can’t grasp this simple concept.
CC, that would be a good question.
Amen to Xalisae! Those of you who have suggested that somehow contraception has empowered men over women should go to an Islamic or traditional Asian country where contraception is banned and see how much power women have. In fact, the exact opposite is true, the surest and swiftest rise of the power and social equality of women accross the globe has been the introduction of reproductive freedom thru contraception. Without it, men still take advantage of women, they just discard them and their child or worse yet have them killed when a pregnancy occurs. You want fewer abortions, promote birth control, don’t demonize it.
Why does a woman take the Pill? She doesn’t want a baby. Well, sometimes women get pregnant anyway. So what then?
Eh, there are just way too many people using birth control today. I really don’t see how you can stop this.
That’s when they should have the baby, but we know that most of them head to the abortion clinic.
Trying to talk about NFP today is like trying to speak Chinese. People think you’re silly.
I don’t want kids, and neither does my hubbie. We got married:
To be each other’s next of kin.
To be able to take leave from work with relatively little hassle if one of us is sick.
To be able to get wrongful death benefits in the event of some tragic event.
To make our own family.
To access survivor’s benefits after the other’s death.
To visit each other in the hospital without a bunch of hassle.
To make medical decisions for each other.
To put him on my health insurance.
To enroll on his health insurance.
To get discounts on car insurance.
To access tax benefits.
To be protected against testifying against each other.
To inheirit each other’s property.
and
Because we love each other and want to get old and crotchety together.
Hi Rosie.
“Hmm… I don’t think I said anything about religion in my reasons for using NFP, but whatever.”
According to Wiki, by definition, NFP is the collection of contraception methods only approved of by the Catholic Church. If you’re a non-believer, you have my most sincere apology, especially because it gets rather frustrating for me after awhile of being accused constantly of being religious simply because I’m pro-life, which I’ll use as a segue to my next point. I AM pro-life, and here’s why:
“And just to clear up the religious thing you brought up, if an egg is fertilized in the pro-life realm that is a life and if the Pill prevents implantation that would be “aborting an in progress pregnancy” to more pro-lifers than not on this board.”
I don’t know how that clears up the religious thing…I guess according to most religious pro-lifers, a fertilized egg should be protected? I suppose we’ll have to get started on building up an inter-uterine task force to ensure that all of the fertilzed eggs in the world implant rather than just get expelled as many often do, because if you let your uterus expell that fertilized egg, that’s murder, ya know. Not that any of this matters to me in the least. If I cared what the religious thought, don’t you think I’d be one myself? Perhaps YOUR definition of “pro-life” entails fertilized eggs, mine does not, and based on SCIENCE, life has to be protected AFTER IMPLANTATION, because that’s when a life gets started growing on its own. If it doesn’t implant, it’d just get passed out of the uterus, no human intervention needed. Human intervention is the basis of my pro-life stance. Abortion is human intervetion which ends/takes another human life, which is inherently wrong. Birth control is no such act. Not even close.
If you are on the pill for health reasons, cramps, skin, flow etc….I would encourage you to google estrogen dominance. Those are all symptoms of it which you get from taking the pill. Synthetic estrogen.
Dr. John Lee has written several books on the subject. What Your Dr. May Not Tell You About Menopause, What Your Dr. May Not Tell You About PreMenopause and What Your Dr. May Not Tell You About Breast Cancer.
hhtp://johnleemd.com/
http://www.johnleemd.com
I suppose we’ll have to get started on building up an inter-uterine task force to ensure that all of the fertilzed eggs in the world implant rather than just get expelled as many often do, because if you let your uterus expell that fertilized egg, that’s murder, ya know.
Posted by: xalisae at June 5, 2008 9:01 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So true.
I know that there are a lot of women who like the new hormone-diffusing IUDs (Mirena?)
You can hear it now, “You’ll get my IUD when you pry it from my cold, dead uterus!”
The pill works with some people’s bodies. It doesn’t with others. I do wish that more women were presented with non-hormonal options, because the default birth control method seems to be the pill and I really did have to kind of educate myself on things and then ask for what I want. But even in the past three years, I have noticed this changing — at least with regards to IUDs, I’ve noticed significantly greater numbers of younger women being aware of the option and considering it.
I think it’s absurd to say that someone who doesn’t want children shouldn’t be getting married. If that’s the case then we should completely divorce marriage from all of the legal benefits that come with it, because the incentives to marry are numerous. And I don’t think it’s somehow wrong for people to marry so that they have all those legal rights rather than to marry for the sole purpose of reproducing, because I think that — children or no children — people in happy marriages create, in general, a more stable society. People in secure, stable living situations benefit the entire country. What kind of messed-up society would only allow partner benefits to people who want to have children?
The National Organization for Women is planning counter protests. I wonder how much they’re paying picketers, since they only seem to arouse paid personnel to demonstrate against us, particularly on a Saturday. I’m always embarrassed for them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
HEY!
Do you how much it cost to hire one million demonstators for the March for Women’s lives?
I had to pull change from the couch cushions just to have gas money that week.
My first question to the engaged woman would be, “Why are you getting married?” If you’re not ready to have children, then why be married?
Posted by: Cranky Catholic at June 5, 2008 8:31 AM
You CAN’T be serious. No sex until marriage, no marriage without babies? There might be some health concerns with the Pill, but “the pill kills babies?” I don’t think so.
It is the Reductio Ad Absurdum of the whole pro life movement. (“In logic, a method employed to disprove an argument by illustrating how it leads to an absurd consequence.”)
Hal, you should have been more responsible though. You made babies and you and your wife killed them.
The purpose for the pill is preventing implantation of the embryonic human. A multivitamin, a medium-rare sirloin, a chlorinated swimming pool, who knows?… a ride in the elevator for all we know… if these things prevented implantation then there isn’t a moral dilemma because their function has nothing to do with killing preborn children.
Unless you took an overdose of vitamins, ate 22 oz. of steak, and rolled around all day long in an elevator with the intent to miscarry… then there’s a problem you’ll have to deal with either in this lifetime or the next.
I tend to be kind of leary of IUD’s, because I heard something once along the lines that in the rare event that you do happen to concieve (fertilized egg IMPLANTED INTO THE UTERINE WALL, pregnancy begun), the pregnancy had to be terminated, so I just got my tubes tied instead, because I know that no contraception is 100%, and if we did ever happen to conceive again, we’d of course be carrying to term (as I think all couples should when they beat the odds, so-to-speak). But I figure after my husband gets back from Iraq and has his vasectomy, the odds would be well in our favor.
Patricia said: “The pill sucks.”
I like it! That could make a great meme.
I think that people who don’t want kids should just get fixed anyway.
Hal, you should have been more responsible though. You made babies and you and your wife killed them.
Posted by: heather at June 5, 2008 9:24 AM
Sure, the pill would have prevented that.
but to some of you guys, it’s the exact same thing.
I mean, why didn’t you guys try to pratice safe sex?
Exacly, Hal. We really seem to be shooting ourselves in the foot on this one. How has “Let’s not kill babies.” turn into “Only people who want babies can get married. No sex unless you’re exclusively trying to produce offspring.”
I hate abortion. I really loathe it with a passion. I fully and completely believe it kills another real human being who should be afforded all the rights and protections every other person in the world has or should have by default. Because of this fact, I want to promote things that will keep abortions from happening. The pill and other contraceptives do this. Why the pro-life movement cannot comprehend this is beyond me.
JohnS said: “Those of you who have suggested that somehow contraception has empowered men over women should go to an Islamic or traditional Asian country where contraception is banned and see how much power women have.”
I’m curious, John: Can you name one country where contraception is, in fact, banned? I’m not necessarily saying there aren’t any; I’m just not aware of any offhand.
(FWIW, Iran is home to the largest condom factory in the Middle East, and apparently it’s state sponsored.)
The pill and other contraceptives do this. Why the pro-life movement cannot comprehend this is beyond me.
Posted by: xalisae at June 5, 2008 9:35 AM——————— I don’t really disagree with it either. It’s better than abortion.
It’s better than having your cervix jammed opened and having your kid chopped to bits.
I think that people who don’t want kids should just get fixed anyway.
Me too, Heather. At least that’s what common sense would tell us.
But, I don’t believe the Catholic Church which I am a member of condones that. I also realize that the rest of the world isn’t necessarily Catholic, though, so that’s the route one should go if they’re not Catholic I think. (Getting their tubes tied/vasectomy I mean)
I don’t really disagree with it either. It’s better than abortion.
Then why are you trying to get other women off birth control?
“The purpose for the pill is preventing implantation of the embryonic human. A multivitamin, a medium-rare sirloin, a chlorinated swimming pool, who knows?… a ride in the elevator for all we know… if these things prevented implantation then there isn’t a moral dilemma because their function has nothing to do with killing preborn children.”
That is assuming that preventing implantation is killing preborn children. What about “A fertilized egg/an egg/a sperm on their own WILL NEVER magically become a child. These things have no method of prolonged nourishment, and most importantly A LIMITED OR NO CAPACITY FOR EXPANSIVE GROWTH AND DEVELOPMENT.
And I agree, Heather. See my post @9:25.
I know a girl who is a crack head. She has 4 living children in state custody and she has had 9 abortions. This kind of cr*p disgusts me, and I think women like her need to be gutted.
I’m not. I’m really just undecided on the issue as far as being “rtl.”
xalisae said: “Because of this fact, I want to promote things that will keep abortions from happening. The pill and other contraceptives do this. Why the pro-life movement cannot comprehend this is beyond me.”
We can’t comprehend it because there’s no there there.
This has been known for years. Heck, even Alfred Kinsey acknowledged (at the April 1955 Conference on Induced Abortion—which, incidentally, was sponsored by Planned Parenthood):
“At the risk of being repetitious, I would remind the group that we have found the highest frequency of induced abortions in the group which, in general, most frequently uses contraception.”
The Bullwinkle Approach to contraception (“This time for sure!”) as some sort of “remedy” for abortion is, and always has been, doomed.
John, you disagreed with me once on the sterilization issue. Do you think it’s better for the crack head to have 9 abortions, or do you think they ought to get fixed?
Another woman I knew had 7 abortions. She had to have a hysterectomy because of a damaged uterus…a result from the multiple abortions. Why wouldn’t you agree that someone like that should be sterilized?
Heather,
I don’t agree with forced sterilizations, but in those situations I would hope the person would opt to get their tubes tied or have a vasectomy.
Elizabeth, I agree, but most women hooked on drugs seem to prefer abortion to sterilization.
xalisae: preventing implantation is the death of a preborn children.
These things have no method of prolonged nourishment, and most importantly A LIMITED OR NO CAPACITY FOR EXPANSIVE GROWTH AND DEVELOPMENT.
This is an argument that belongs to the right-to-die movement. A newborn infant has limited capacity for expansive growth and requires feeding by another person. Our elderly grandparents have ceased growing and often require feeding by another person. “A LIMITED OR NO CAPACITY FOR EXPANSIVE GROWTH AND DEVELOPMENT” has nothing to do with anything. That’s just veiled language of the pro-death camp for “useless.”
I once asked someone why they thought this was. They responded “The only thing they care about is their next fix.” “They don’t even think about sterilization.”
CC, what do you think we should do with drug addicts who have multiple abortions?
“Perhaps YOUR definition of “pro-life” entails fertilized eggs, mine does not, and based on SCIENCE, life has to be protected AFTER IMPLANTATION, because that’s when a life gets started growing on its own.”
xalisae,
Life begins at the moment of conception. This is a scientific fact.
“Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote). … The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual.” (Carlson, Bruce M., Patten’s Foundations of Embryology, 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p.3.)
“The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote.” [Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]
“Zygote. This cell, formed by the union of an ovum and a sperm (Gr. zygtos, yoked together), represents the beginning of a human being.” [Moore, Keith L. and Persaud, T.V.N. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 4th edition. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1993, p. 1]
“Although human life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed. … The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity.” (O’Rahilly, Ronan and M
Well, we don’t live in a perfect world, so I guess I’d just have to pick the contraception over the abortion. We know that people WILL NOT abstain, so now what?
And the girl I knew who was addicted to crack told me straight up “I sell my body on the street for rock.”
“We can’t comprehend it because there’s no there there.
This has been known for years. Heck, even Alfred Kinsey acknowledged (at the April 1955 Conference on Induced Abortion
I learned something. I (and certainly many others) had no idea that the pill actually initiated an early abortion. That piece of information needs spreading. Your articles are great as are you!
God bless you, Neanderthal!
Sheesh ! I respect the right of people to be opposed to abortion, but to want to deny other women the right to use contraceptives is unbelievably presumptious.
To call cells “babies” is beyond ludicrous. And to consider this “murder” is
loony. Do you people realize how many surgical abortions have been prevented by contraceptives?
Robert,
” To call cells “babies” is beyond ludicrous. And to consider this “murder” is
loony.”
That isn’t a very scientific statement. First of all, the term “bunch of cells” is just meant to dehumanize the embryo. We’re all just a “bunch of cells” if you want to look at it from a merely flippant materialistic POV. But we are an integrated whole; a complete human organism whose parts function together to form a cohesive whole. If you actually look at what science tells us (see the quotes from Embryology texts I cited above), it is that human life begins in the blastocyst stage. It is an undeniable scientific fact that we were all once embryos. Also, “baby” is an accidental term, which doesn’t adequately describe the nature of the being in question. The being in question is a human being. Fine, it isn’t a baby. But it is a human being. My 6 month old is not a toddler, but that doesn’t take away from her humanity. None of the terms toddler, adult, fetus, zygote, baby, old man, etc. are substantial. They are all accidental. God love you.
So you’d really rather give people the following thought process:
“Well, if the pill kills babies the same way abortion kills babies, why not just take my chances, not take the pill, and if I do end up getting pregnant, I’ll just have an abortion, since Jill Stanek says its the same thing either way!”
Yeahhhhh…. awesome.
*joins Rae in gleefully popping a Yaz birth control pill*
Seriously, Yaz rocks. I love it. :)
A little miffed, Xalisae?
As an NFP instructor, I have come across some impressive situations that only affirm that what we need is not more pills, shots, foams, rods, procedures, jellies, latex and the like. It’s sacrifice. Not the “oh, I’m gonna die” sacrifice, it’s the one where we deny ourselves some temporary pleasure for a far greater good.
I had a pharmaceutical student take the course during her engagement. She confirmed with me that one of the triple functions of the Pill is to prevent implantation of a new human life. That along with all those side effects brought her to my class.
There is a wealth of information that encompasses the whole contraception-abortion connection. I would invite you to check it out.
Whether the abortion is surgical or chemical it makes no difference. One is not worse than the other. By the way, it’s more than common for moms to refer to her children as her babies even when they have grown into adulthood. Nobody stops her to say, “Excuse me, ma’am. Calling your children ‘babies’ is ludicrous.”
Does anybody know if the past head of the Episcopal denomination,Bishop Frank Griswold is related to Estelle Griswold?
“I had a pharmaceutical student take the course during her engagement. She confirmed with me that one of the triple functions of the Pill is to prevent implantation of a new human life.”
That is a THEORY. Its never been proven the pill does this.
Thats why when you read descriptions of how the pill works, you’ll notice careful wording like “the pill works by preventing ovulation and MAY also prevent implanatation.”
You’re right Amanda. She didn’t want to take the chance that the Theory become a reality.
carder, Bobby and all, I am still trying to learn when I come here. I have a question. What about prostitutes? What’s better? Contraception or abortion by surgery? I’m just looking for the best answer I can find as a solution, and I am being sincere.
You can’t ake these women get sterilized, so what do we do with them when they are selling their bodies for drugs and not thinking clearly.
*make* above post
Amanda, if it’s just a theory, if it MAY prevent implantation, if it has never been proven, why does the manufacturer even bother to put it on the box?
What’s ridiculous is that pro-pill people want folks to believe that first, it does prevent pregnancy, two, woman have become pregnant while on the pill, and three, there’s no proof of preventing implantation. So if a woman can prevent a pregnancy or become pregnant, am I supposed to believe a process that happens in between the two never happens?
CC- Name me ONE medication in the history of man kind that is 100% effective.
Chemotherapy drugs are not 100% effective in treating cancer, and can make people very ill regardless. So people should just give up and cross their fingers, right?
You’re all a bunch of freaking crazies. We should dedicate one state (one of the box states in the plains region) to all you brainless nutjobs and let you incest yourselves into extinction. Wouldn’t take long.
Gosh, Heather, neither contraception or abortion is addressing the root of the prostitute’s problem: her drug addiction.
My first reaction would be get her to rehab first and then we’ll talk. But I haven’t thought the matter out.
carder, I know. There may not even be an answer, but most of them reject rehab. It’s sad.
Anon,
We can lose the “freaking crazies” and “mindless nutjobs” remark and still get our point across.
It’s possible, trust me.
Try it again.
Amanda, if it’s just a theory, if it MAY prevent implantation, if it has never been proven, why does the manufacturer even bother to put it on the box?
Because this is a major hot-button issue and, should someone eventually prove that it does prevent implantation, the companies would rather cover their butts than not? Because you cannot prove that something DOES NOT prevent implantation and, should there ever be some point in the future where a woman knowingly fails to implant due to her birth control, the pharmaceutical industry would rather avoid millions of dollars of lawsuits? Didn’t we not even know how Advil or something actually worked until relatively recently?
The possibility that their birth control may, in some cases, prevent implantation, is a risk some women are willing to take, just like some women are willing to take the risk that their poor diet or lack of vitamins may prevent implantation.
Also, many crackheads keep smoking while they are pregnant..if they don’t abort, that is.
Alexandra… indeed.
The drug info on my sister’s asthma medication says “MAY cause sudden asthma related death”
Yet its one of the most widely used and popularly prescribed asthma meds on the market.
Take away the “allows woman to enjoy sex without becoming a baby chamber” side-effect, and the pill is NO different from any other medication in terms of risk, effectiveness, or lack of perfect understanding of what it may or may not do.
Amanda
I have never been a baby chamber. I’m a mommy.
You pro-BC-pill people keep comparing the Pill to some kind of medication (asthma… chemo?). Birth control is not medicine.
Medicines and therapies are meant to restore a body back to its normal function. Birth control is the opposite. BC’s function is to make a normally functioning body behave abnormally.
Cranky, the Pill is indeed medication for some women (in addition to its use as birth control). Some women who cannot get pregnant take the Pill. More importantly, the Pill allows women to have sex with less fear of getting pregnant. Sounds like a good thing to me.
You pro-BC-pill people keep comparing the Pill to some kind of medication (asthma… chemo?). Birth control is not medicine.
It does not treat a disease or illness, this is true. But it is a pharmaceutical drug, hence the comparisons to other pharmaceutical drugs. I’m not really understanding why you bother making this point — do you have nothing else to say to what Amanda or I posted?
Good point Hal, I didn’t even think about the fact that in some situations, the pill IS medication.
“Medicines and therapies are meant to restore a body back to its normal function. Birth control is the opposite. BC’s function is to make a normally functioning body behave abnormally. ”
Thats just not true at all. The pill IS a medication.
I was actually surprised to find out just how commonly its taken for reasons OTHER than preventing pregnancy – when I started reading this board and came across a LOT of girls who dealt with the same thing I did before taking the pill… excrutiating, horrible cramps. To the point where I’d be curled up in a ball for 48 hours, throwing up everything I ate, and bleeding until I became anemic. That is NOT a normal function, CC. The pill stopped all that the very next month. I can’t even imagine how I’d have gotten through college if I needed to miss two days of class AND work a month curled up in a ball in bed in absolute agony.
Thank GOD for the pill.
Yes, Alexandra, I understand you’re both talking about medicines (asthma) and therapies (chemo). The result of not taking them… death! Asthma is a disease. Cancer is a disease. What’s the result of not taking the Pill? Certainly not death. Rather… a baby.
Babies are good. Pro-BC-pill people seem to think otherwise.
Hi there Heather. Let me see if I can answer your question.
“carder, Bobby and all, I am still trying to learn when I come here. I have a question. What about prostitutes? What’s better? Contraception or abortion by surgery? I’m just looking for the best answer I can find as a solution, and I am being sincere.”
Obviously I know that you ask a very sincere question Heather, but what I would say is that you’ve presented a situation in which you are asking one to choose between two evils, which is something I can not do. This is similar to when people ask “would you rather have kids have unprotected sex and get pregnant or would you rather give them a condom?” Neither. I would rather they not have sex period. “Oh but they’re gonna do it anyway.” With that attitude, yeah. On the other hand, I would never ask “Is it better to rape someone with a condom or rape someone without using a condom? Men are gonna rape anyway, whether you like it or not, agree with it or not. Better they use a condom when raping so as not to make an unwanted pregnancy. I’m a realist yada yada.” Rape is wrong. Period. So I would never choose between rape with a condom or rape without a condom.
Similarly, in the situation you’ve constructed, the problem is the fact that we’ve already assumed that an evil (prostitution) MUST occur. I can’t choose between two evils. That situation does not need to occur. We need to stop prostitution plain and simple. So my answer is that it is better that prostitution doesn’t occur. “But if it has to…” No, it doesn’t have to. There is a hidden assumption there which I do not accept. Does that make sense? God love you, Heather.
The pill may be able to treat the symptoms of a fertility problem, but it has never been proven to treat the actual problem that causes the symptoms (i.e. cramping, anemia, etc.). The pill wipes out the fertility cycle – it does not restore the woman to a natural state of health. There are better medications and treatments out there for fertility problems, so why is the pill always prescribed when it is an inferior choice?
hi just saying,
can you name a medication that treats these symptoms more effectively than the pill with less side effects (I had ZERO side effects from the pill other than a bigger chest (good) and clearer skin( also good)? Because my pediatrician at the time, and the two gynos I saw didn’t know of any.
(not that it would matter now, since I am sexually active anyway… but for the first two and a half years I was taking the pill, I wasn’t)
What’s the result of not taking the Pill? Certainly not death. Rather… a baby.
Babies are good. Pro-BC-pill people seem to think otherwise.
A) As has been noted, sometimes the result of not taking the pill is pain and extreme blood loss.
B)I’m not pro-hormonal contraception. I actually hate it.
C) Babies are good. However, not everyone wants a baby all of the time. A woman who chooses to take birth control pretty obviously does not want a baby at that point in her life — so the pill, even if it does not prevent death, is something that prevents her conceiving when she does not want to. You’re perfectly within your rights to find this sinful, wrong, or any other objectionable word, and to say that she shouldn’t be having sex if she doesn’t want a baby, but that doesn’t mean you get to dictate other people’s behavior.
D) No one cares if you personally don’t want to take hormonal birth control because you find it unnecessary. I find it unnecessary, so I don’t take it, and I fully support providing other women with the information they need to decide whether or not hormonal BC is something they actually want. But I don’t feel the need to force everyone else to come to the same conclusions I have. You asked why the manufacturers put the caveat on the box, and I gave what I think is a pretty logical reasoning. Now you switch the topic to the necessity of birth control, which is really beside the point, because you don’t get to decide what is “necessary” for other people.
Incidentally Heather, even though I don’t argue using religion, it should be noted that in Catholic moral theology, if one reads documents condoning contraception very carefully, they’ll notice that it always refers to contraception in the context of the “conjugal act.” In other words, the Catholic Church has no position about whether or not contraception can be used outside of the context of marriage. It doesn’t say for essentially reasons I noted above; namely, that it isn’t going to so whether or not one thing is evil in the context of an already evil act (which is willfully engaged in by both agents).
I’m not trying to change this into a religious discussion or say that my only defense of my beliefs is “my church says so.” I just wanted to let you know, sort of FYI.
Sorry, the second paragraph of my last post should have been italicized as Cranky Catholic’s words. They certainly aren’t mine. I really do wish we would get the preview function back!
To the above posters who asked various questions (I was at work this morning and then went for some much needed retail therapy!)
I learned a year before I was married from Serena Canada which teaches the sympto-thermal method.
Of course, I didn’t get a chance to actually use the method until I was married but I had a year of charting under my belt. It was very interesting because I was already very aware of my body to begin with.
Some things I learned about myself: every year I would have a longer than usual cycle (about 35 days as opposed to my more regular 28 or 29 day cycle). This was always in the late winter or very early spring which apparently, is not uncommon and has something to do with the amount of sunlight for some women.
My migraines were hormonal triggered.
What did I tell people using the pill: all the physical advantages which did usually did not accept. PP and other org’s have done a wonderful job of defaming NFP typically calling it the rhythm method (which it is NOT).
Bobby, thank you for the reply. I appreciate it. Unfortunatly that woman is still on the streets and she’s still hooked on drugs. Mention rehab, and she’ll laugh in your face. In a perfect world, prostitution, drug addiction, and abortion would not exist.
Alexandra,
Even though it’s a pain to do every time, here is an HTML preview site. It may help. God love you.
Oh my, this is a popular thread!
I agree, Heather. Perhaps it’s a bit presumptuous of me, but I would think that if someone is already engaged in prostitution, they wouldn’t have a problem using contraception. I mean, I can certainly see there being prostitutes who would not have an abortion, so it seems to me that while this may be an interesting academic question for us to ponder, I don’t think this has ever (or will ever) be an ACTUAL moral dilemma for an actual prostitute, although of course I could be wrong.
Heather… indeed.
And just to add to that, a lot of you seem to think that if people like the ones Heather described “knew what they were doing”, they’d change their behavior (as Jill implies in this post that many women don’t know the pill “kills babies”). I think some of you may be SERIOUSLY underestimating the overpowering nature of addiction. The vast VAST majority of addicts know exactly what the dangers are, but the addiction has taken over any part of them that would cause them to CARE. So no one is saying you have to “accept” what they’re doing – not at all – on the contrary, you should not accept it, but you should also do everything you can to prevent them from causing further harm – to themsleves, or to others (like thier children). Birth control is a perfect example.
If anyone in the US wants to find classes on NFP, call your local Catholic Parishes or the Diocese Life Office, and they should be able to direct you to the nearest instructor. If you buy a basal thermometer at the drugstore, oftentimes the instructions for NFP are contained inside the package.
The pill may be able to treat the symptoms of a fertility problem, but it has never been proven to treat the actual problem that causes the symptoms (i.e. cramping, anemia, etc.). The pill wipes out the fertility cycle – it does not restore the woman to a natural state of health. There are better medications and treatments out there for fertility problems, so why is the pill always prescribed when it is an inferior choice?
Posted by: just saying at June 5, 2008 12:36 PM
NFP can help a couple struggling with infertility either define the problem and correct it or seek further help. In fact, my understanding is that when you go to a doctor for fertility problems they sometimes will ask you to chart your cycles in a minimal way.
However, having said that, in my experience and that of my friends, doctors are very adverse and downright hostile about NFP. Often these doctors know absolutely NOTHING about how a woman’s fertility works. It’s disgraceful IMO. Yet they equate NFP users with some backwoods-barefoot and pregnant idiot.
I remember getting into a NASTY argument with my doctor when pregn. with my first baby over the due date. (She WAS wrong). Similarily, a friend of mine who was going through menopause about 2 years ago, in complete frustration finally called the Marguerite Bourgeouys Institute in Toronto, who referred her to a prolife pro NFP doctor in the SW Ontario area. She was not treated with the pill as other doctors wanted to do but was sent home with some more natural ideas for dealing with her condition. She’s fine now.
(Ok, i”m done now :D)
“it has not freed them from pregnancy – it has enslaved them to men’s sexual desires. Today, women no longer have the option to say no in a relationship. Oh, they can say, but they won’t have the guy anymore.”
Yeah, yeah, yeah Patricia. I’m on the pill, I stopped having sex and my boyfriend is still with me. He’s not with me for sex, but because I’m completely awesome.
So what do I have now? I’ll tell you what I don’t have, cramps that make me throw up and unable to stand up and walk once a month. The pill freed me to live my life to the fullest, every single day.
“but it’s the pill that frees men of all accountability to be men and protect women.”
I don’t know about you, but I can protect myself. Women are not invalids, we can protect ourselves. I know I can.
Bobby — thanks!
Patricia — regarding the pill, the problems being discussed were not infertility but rather extremely painful menstrual periods, anemia, etc. The pill can regulate these symptoms. CC had said that the pill isn’t medication, and Hal and Amanda rightly pointed out that for some women, it is — it medicates irregular or difficult cycles, endometriosis, etc.
“Also, many crack-heads keep smoking while they are pregnant..if they don’t abort, that is.”
So heather, why do you care so much about that Lauren girl who overdosed on heroin while pregnant? What makes her so special? And you call pro-choicer Nazi’s? We don’t force sterilization on anyone. That’s what the one child-policy is all about in China. Maybe you could be their spokesperson?
“If you don’t lead a perfect lifestyle we’ll sterilize you.”
As a pro-choicer I believe the women should be the only who can choose whether or not to have more children.
Ew I tried Yaz once and it was just awful for me. I’ve been on Yasmin for almost four years now and it’s worked like a charm. I missed one month a few months ago and I got my period while in my friends dorm. It hurt so bad that I had to lie on the floor with my feet raised. Oh yeah and I bloated up so badly I had to unbutton my pants. Yeah I totally felt empowered by *that* experience. NOT!
Yeah, yeah, yeah Patricia. I’m on the pill, I stopped having sex and my boyfriend is still with me. He’s not with me for sex, but because I’m completely awesome.
First of all I glad you think so highly of yourself Jess!
However, the majority of women do NOT take the pill for medical reasons. They take it so that they will not conceive. This means that as more and more women came on the pill and therefore became sexually available, women who were not on the pill and did not want to have sex outside of marriage were placed at a distinct disadvantage.Men have thus come to EXPECT and indeed feel ENTITLED to sex in a relationship. If the woman does not meet this expectation she is dumped as my daughter’s 15 year old friend found out this year.
Most genuinely Catholic doctors I know will not prescribe the BC pill to treat ANYTHING.
“women who were not on the pill and did not want to have sex outside of marriage were placed at a distinct disadvantage.”
Why would these women want to be with anyone who treated women just as sex objects? I think our society just pushes girls and women to get into relationships at all costs. If the guy isn’t stellar, then dump him. I would never settle, I’d rather die single then be with someone like that.
“women who were not on the pill and did not want to have sex outside of marriage were placed at a distinct disadvantage.”
Why would these women want to be with anyone who treated women just as sex objects? I think our society just pushes girls and women to get into relationships at all costs. If the guy isn’t stellar, then dump him. I would never settle, I’d rather die single then be with someone like that.
If the woman does not meet this expectation she is dumped as my daughter’s 15 year old friend found out this year.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SO FIND A DIFFERENT GUY!
I wouldn’t go out with a guy who didn’t want a sexual relationship. You should’ve seen Mike when he broke his spine and was told not to romp AT ALL for four months.
“If the woman does not meet this expectation she is dumped as my daughter’s 15 year old friend found out this year.”
Yeah…and plenty of girls will dump guys if they don’t meet their expectation of not spending money on them.
Some people suck. Plenty of people don’t. I don’t think the fact that some guys are jerks is a reason not to go on the pill. Give women a little credit for choosing the right guys! And give guys a little credit for being a lot more than sex crazed jerks! In 10 years of dating, I’ve only ended up with ONE guy who was pushy about sex, and when I didn’t give in, he cheated on me, I found out, and that was the end of it. Life goes on, and I’m all the better for it. The fact that I was on the pill played absolutely NO role in any of that.
WHY does a 15 year old need to find a different guy?
Nothing wrong with hanging out with girlfriends, getting into sports or finding a hobby…..
“Also, many crack-heads keep smoking while they are pregnant..if they don’t abort, that is.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Is it just me, or are some people’s lives just one long, tawdry Jerry Springer episode?
Cranky Catholic: The purpose for the pill is preventing implantation of the embryonic human. A multivitamin, a medium-rare sirloin, a chlorinated swimming pool, who knows?… a ride in the elevator for all we know… if these things prevented implantation then there isn’t a moral dilemma because their function has nothing to do with killing preborn children.
Actually, the purpose for the pill is to prevent conception. It does this primarily by suppressing ovulation, and secondarily by causing the cervical mucus to thicken so that sperm don’t get to the egg. A possible effect is that it prevents implantation. However, nobody knows whether this actually occurs. It’s true that the uterine lining is usually thinned in women who are on the pill, but it’s also true that women who are on the pill usually aren’t ovulating. Ovulation is the event which triggers the endometrium to prepare for pregnancy, so if a woman on the pill has ovulated, she may not have the thinned endometrium that would impair implantation — as far as I know this particular question has never been studied. And of course if she hasn’t ovulated, the condition of the uterine lining makes no difference at all.
Rosie, great post about why you got married!
: )
“The only thing they care about is their next fix.” “They don’t even think about sterilization.”
Heather, no doubt about that one.
Nobody knows if it occurs, eh? Then thats a very good reason NOT to use the pill. If it might kill an embryonic child… DON’T USE IT… rather than taking the pill because it might not kill an embryonic child. (Incidentally, I only mention the third method of action because mentioning all three methods gets redundant when we’re only talking about the one.)
And it saddens me that the pill-users on this forum seem content with sacrificing the lives of their embryonic children just so they can have a better flow.
Awww thanks Doug!
Also, my hubby is fully in line with my plans to be the Crazy Cat Lady, as long as he gets to tell whippersnappers to get off the lawn.
WHY does a 15 year old need to find a different guy?
Carla, have to laugh…. My gut feeling (now that I’m way older than 15) is, “yeah, that’s awful young…”
However, I bet most 15 year olds could give you a whole slew of reasons.
I am sure they could. My children will not be dating until they are 30. Nuff said.
Everyone knows that Califonia is FULL of crack heads!!!!
I guess when they are 30 they won’t be children but, I will encourage all 4 to be involved in other activities than chasing the opposite sex. Bowling is fun!!
My pal lives in Studio City CA. He is famous!!!
CC, there are about a million factors out there that have the POTENTIAL to prevent an EMBRYO from implanting (there is no such thing as an “embryonic child”).
If you’d like to advocate putting all women of child bearing age in a protective bubble, free of things like coffee, wine, stress, trips and falls, blood pressure changes, a whole slew of medications (including aspirin), etc. etc. etc to eliminate ALL potential factors that MIGHT prevent implantation, by all means….
But it makes no sense to pick ONE potential factor and ignore the rest.
Nobody knows if it occurs, eh? Then thats a very good reason NOT to use the pill.
Yeah, nobody knows if lots of things can prevent implantation. That may be a very good reason FOR YOU not to do those things, but we are all free to make our decisions around which behaviors are likely enough to have results we don’t like that we consider them worth avoiding. I sure hope you don’t consume caffeine, otherwise you MAY be sacrificing the lives of embryonic children just so you can have your cup of coffee. I hope you don’t exercise strenuously, either. It would be really selfish of you to sacrifice the lives of embryonic children just so you can run that half marathon.
Rosie, it wasn’t settled for my wife when we got married, though I was 41 and she 38. She was about 50/50 on having kids and I was probably 80/20 against it.
I work “on the road” – away from home, usually, and this too was a big factor.
She has ovarian cancer in her family history, and three years ago had a hysterectomy – I’ve forgotten exactly what prompted it – but cysts were found on both ovaries though nothing cancerous.
Anyway, she’s been VERY happy with her hysterectomy afterwards, and “has” 150 kids of her own each year as she’s a teacher. For now, the issue of having kids is done for us. I guess it’s not impossible that we’d adopt some day, but in the end age itself will be more and more of a factor for us.
I have to laugh at your description of you and your husband getting old and crotchety together. My wife sometimes tells me that I’m an old curmudgeon already and she can see me up on the porch, yelling at the kids to “get off the lawn you little punks,” while I pull up my pants that are already too short for my legs.
O’course, two minutes later she can be shaking her head at me, and saying, “You’re SUCH a child!”
“…and she can see me up on the porch, yelling at the kids to “get off the lawn you little punks,” while I pull up my pants that are already too short for my legs.”
Would that be the same porch that you told me you sometimes pee off of, Doug?
If it might kill an embryonic child… DON’T USE IT… If it might kill an embryonic child… DON’T USE IT…
::points up::
What Amanda said.
Don’t forget breastfeeding, Amanda. That won’t be allowed in the bubble either.
There’s a difference between abortion and doing something which *might* result in one’s uterus being in less-than-optimum condition for implantation if one should happen (against long odds, in the case of the pill) to conceive.
I have read most of the comments here, and I see that people are really defensive about NFP vs the pill.
For the record, I didn’t hear anyone say that the pill should be outlawed and people thrown in jail for using it. But they were sort of attacked as if they had.
It’s like promoting condom use for homosexuals. Duh, if they are in homosexual relationships, then condom use is kind of worrying about the barn doors while the horse is long gone. Same with pre marital sex. From our point of view, and Bobby explained this, by the time you are having what we believe to be immoral relations, using the pill or condoms becomes moot.
All we have said, and I agree, is that we believe that contraception is morally wrong, and that it’s benefits don’t outweigh it’s harm.
You don’t have to agree, but NOBODY that I saw was “forcing everyone to come to the same conclusions that we are”. We were simply expressing our point of view and explaining why we hold it.
You’re all a bunch of freaking crazies. We should dedicate one state (one of the box states in the plains region) to all you brainless nutjobs and let you incest yourselves into extinction. Wouldn’t take long.
As for the pro life movement “getting it”, we do get it. But the pro life movement is made up of many different groups of people. Catholics believe birth control and abortion are linked, folks like PIP and Alyssa think birth control will help stop abortions.
Being anti contraception is not a prerequisite for being pro life.
But again, as Bobby says, we are more interested in getting to the first “evil”, that of sex outside of marriage. Contraception leads to that, and sex outside of marriage leads to contraception. What we want is to keep sex in the context of marriage, and then contraception will take care of itself.
Obviously, we realize that people of a secular bent will not agree with this.
It’s incredible how nature sets females up to take care of people, and yet it is tricky for them to take care of themselves.
Bjork
I saw that and just thought it was such a wonderful quote. I love Bjork.
Speaking of getting too old, in about three weeks I’m going to turn twenty. I think I’ll die an old maid. And my biological clock is on its last few ticks : (
Before I settle down though I do want to visit Iceland and Siberia and a few places in Eastern Europe.
Carla: 2:35: I guess when they are 30 they won’t be children but, I will encourage all 4 to be involved in other activities than chasing the opposite sex. Bowling is fun!!
Amen! Lol!
Amanda, I’ve never heard of caffeine being used as birth control, but if someone takes caffeine so that it prevents implantation, then she is equally complicit as a BC user.
Cranky Catholic’s reasons to get married:
To have children
To build up Christ’s church on earth
To advance the culture of life with more pro-life people in the world
To provide an oppurtunity for the Lord to pour out even more of His graces
To glorify the Kingdom of God
To learn humility… you don’t know how selfish you are until you have children
To share in the sacred creation of life with my spouse
To experience the health benefits of breastfeeding
To be a grandparent
I want to go here!
http://www.travelersdigest.com/pictures/europe/iceland/reykjavikintro.jpg
Jess,
I am 42 and I want one more…your clock has not even begun to tick!! :)
CC,
I like your reasons very much.
Cranky Catholic’s reasons to get married:
To have children
To build up Christ’s church on earth
To advance the culture of life with more pro-life people in the world
To provide an oppurtunity for the Lord to pour out even more of His graces
To glorify the Kingdom of God
To learn humility… you don’t know how selfish you are until you have children
To share in the sacred creation of life with my spouse
To experience the health benefits of breastfeeding
To be a grandparent
Posted by: Cranky Catholic at June 5, 2008 2:58 PM
++++
(Good list, I would like to add):
To help my spouse get to heaven
So Cranky Catholic if the people aren’t Christian they don’t deserve to get married?
And since you don’t think people should have children out of wedlock that means you don’t think non-Christians should reproduce?
“To help my spouse get to heaven”
How so?
“To help my spouse get to heaven”
Jess said: How so?
Ha ha, Jess, you never ask easy questions!
Well, I would say that we each try to help each other be the best person that we can be, living according to our faith.
Also Jess, one receives actual graces from a sacramental marriage, which also is obviously helpful for the mutual sanctification process.
This basically sums up how I feel:
The argument: Society needs traditional marriage to promote new families and children who will become the leaders of the next generation. Same-sex marriage does not promote this. Rather, it promotes the wants of individuals.
The response: Many marriages produce no children at all, but are either childless or are home to adopted children. These marriages are no less marriage in the eyes of the federal government or of God (ask, “Don’t you agree?”), and the parties to it have no fewer rights because the two married individuals failed to procreate – nor should they. Many same sex couples either produce natural children or adopt, create new families, and are no more self-serving to the individual than any opposite sex marriage in which children are dearly wanted, therefore should not receive any fewer rights, societal accordances or benefits.
The argument: Gay marriage robs a child of a two-parent family, and studies show that a child without one or the other parent is more likely to be stricken by poverty or drug abuse.
The response: Not supported by facts. Many children suffer the loss of one parent to all sorts of different causes: death, divorce (and one parent moves far away), drug abuse or abandonment by the parent. Conveniently, many opponents of gay marriage ignore the fact that there are far more children doing well who are not being raised by their natural mother and father in an intact marital situation than there are those languishing. The figures they cite are often relating to drug abuse, arrest, and abandonment issues, and of course these things all put children in worse straits. But in many committed gay families, there are two parents in the home – and the children are well adjusted and successful in school. In fact, a recent study showed that for the very best parental situation, one would need to be sure a child was raised by a pair of lesbians; these children turned out to be more well adjusted and have better IQ scores than their peers being raised by their own bio moms and dads.
The argument: It’s not about Civil Rights. Gays should not be equated with the struggle of African Americans for their Civil Rights, they were never slaves. (Many cite Jesse Jackson here, or other African American leaders)
The response: Nonsense. It is about Civil Rights. Civil Rights means the rights accorded to each and every citizen of the United States being equal and across the board to all citizens. African Americans and gays and women and anyone else who’s being denied equality under our Constitution. Thankfully, the black Civil Rights movement has greased these wheels considerably and provided a template so that other minority groups experiencing discrimination can achieve more equal treatment in decades rather than the centuries it took for African Americans to get as close as they have (though there’s still a ways to go, there, too).
The argument: It’s a slippery slope that will lead to incestuous marriage, or even bestiality in marriage. Just because a brother and sister feel that they are in love and want to marry, the law forbids it for good reasons. If Gay Marriage is allowed, then where will it end? Why not allow polygamy, too, for that matter?
The response: This is the most spurious argument of all, and it’s just a ridiculous one. Gays want the same rights as straights. Incest will still be disallowed. Bestiality will still be disallowed. Marriage should be the committed relationship between two persons of consenting age which is lawful in all other ways. The “slippery slope” is all in the minds of these poor people who are so afraid that their way of life is going to be threatened that they are grasping at whatever straw seems to be waving their way.
The argument: Why would traditional marriage be in Federal Law? – President Clinton signed the federal Defense of Marriage Act into law on September 21, 1996.[4] If traditional marriage was wrong, why would one of our former presidents, with the support of the House of Representatives and Senate, sign it into law? Of course, the Federal government has made mistakes in the past on subjects such as slavery and suffrage. The difference is that slavery has been abolished and all Americans have the right to vote, while the Defense of Marriage Act is still in law.
The response: This one’s just funny. Let’s think about it. First of all, nobody, as far as anyone can see so far, has said that “traditional marriage is wrong.” It’s fine, for traditional couples. The reason the Federal Defense of Marriage Act was signed into law is because it was politically expedient at the time for Clinton to sign it into law; there was not the base of support for Gay Marriage that exists today. And, as the other person points out, The Federal Government “has made mistakes in the past, on slavery and suffrage.” And is making a mistake here, too. The difference is that “slavery has been abolished and all Americans now have the right to vote.” Those laws were wrong then, and this Defense of Marriage Act is just as wrong – we just haven’t gotten to the point yet where it’s politically expedient to abolish the Defense of Marriage Act. Yet. It’s still in law. For now. But have no doubt that it will be abolished eventually, just as the others were. This person acts as if the fact that it hasn’t happened yet is proof that it never should.
The argument: The Bible speaks out against gays. Since the authors of the Bible were inspired by God, then God must be opposed to homosexuality, and since marriages are done through God, there can be no same sex marriage.
The response: Actually, the Bible says nothing of the sort. This is the quote: “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be put upon them” (Leviticus 20:13). This is, in fact, condemning homosexual intercourse, and not homosexuality in general. Also, the Bible and/or religious leaders have also spoken out against sex before marriage and contraception, which would seem that the only time sex is ‘permitted’ by God, is to reproduce. Couples who cannot have children can be together, so why not Gay Marriage?
The argument: Statistics say that gay people or gay couples are more violent/abusive/involved in drugs etc.
The response: Although the accuracy of those reports are usually quite dubious, bringing down each of these claims individually by checking the authenticity of these statistics would be time-consuming. Another way to address this is via logic. Correlation doesn’t imply causality. Just because two events are correlated, doesn’t mean that one causes the other. Eg. Correlation: Joe robs a bank. Joe is also diabetic. Irrational causation: Being diabetic caused Joe to rob banks; or diabetics are bad people who rob banks. Another one: Correlation: The sun sets. At the same time, the street lights go on. Irrational Causation: Turning on street lights causes the sun to set. When someone brings up statistics about gay people, break it down in a similar manner. John is gay, John also robs a bank. Does that mean that being gay caused him to rob banks? Of course not. Reduce it further and it’s more obvious: John is attracted to other men, thus he will robs banks. Obviously, this makes absolutely no sense. John can love football, ice cream, and math, but no one would claim that football lovers, and mathematicians were immoral and will all rob banks.
Carla what are you going to name your new baby? I think you should name her Purpose.
Uhhh… how about getting married because you love someone and want to spend the rest of your life with them and make them offically your family? That was noticeably absent from your list, CC. Sorry, but I find that more than a little bizarre.
“Amanda, I’ve never heard of caffeine being used as birth control, but if someone takes caffeine so that it prevents implantation, then she is equally complicit as a BC user.”
Thank you, you just made my point. The reality is that they DONT drink coffee on purpose to prevent implantation, just as no one takes the pill on purpose to prevent implantation – because there is currently NO WAY TO PROVE that this always, or even sometimes, occurs. It is a POSSIBILITY. I don’t stay home all day because of the POSSIBILITY that I’ll die in a car accident or be hit by a falling crane. I don’t object to the pill because of the POSSIBILITY it prevents implantation.
MK – I get what you’re saying, but saying “the pill kills babies” IS pretty much saying people shouldn’t be allowed to take it, no? Not everyone was saying that, but it is the title of this post.
http://www.violentacres.com/archives/184/weddings-are-stupid
I love violent acres. It’s such a change of pace from here. It’s nice to shake things up once in awhile.
How can you want a ban on abortion because abortion kills babies, but say you’re not seeking a government ban on the Pill, which also “kills babies?”
Amanda, you don’t need to marry someone in order to spend the rest of your life with them.
Right, CC, because you ignored the first and last part of that sentence and made it in to a completely different one….
*eyeroll*
Amanda,
MK – I get what you’re saying, but saying “the pill kills babies” IS pretty much saying people shouldn’t be allowed to take it, no? Not everyone was saying that, but it is the title of this post.
Good point. Forgot about the title of the post. I guess, personally, I’d err on the side of making sure no babies die, so yeah, I’d like to see the pill gone. At least for reasons of contracepting.
But I think we missed that boat. People live differently now, and I honestly don’t think it would be possible to remove the pill from society.
I also think that people put way too much emphasis on sex. I mean, I know it happens and I know that everyone doesn’t believe what I believe, but think about this…
If cigarettes were outlawed tomorrow, I would seriously give some thought to becoming a criminal. Why? Because I am addicted to nicotine. Can’t deny it. I am. I would make A LOT of noise if someone tried to tell me I COULD’NT smoke. They can tell me I shouldn’t smoke, but CAN’T???? UhUh, no way.
I think many people would feel the same way about birth control. For the same reasons. Sex is so important to them that the thought of going without would totally put them over the edge. I think it’s like an addiction.
Now IF cigarettes were outlawed, I’d yell, scream, and kick, but eventually, I’d stop smoking and that would be a good thing, no?
It’s a tough one, that’s for sure. I wouldn’t fight so hard about condoms tho, or any other form that didn’t endanger the life of any concepted children. I mean I would object on moral grounds, but I wouldn’t want it made illegal.
The pill is a different story. If it could be perfected where absolutely NO ovulation occurred that would be a different story. But we know that when it isn’t taken right, ovulation can and does occur…hmmmmmmm…not an easy, that’s for sure. I think in the end tho, I’d have to vote to make it obsolete.
Amanda, you can love someone the rest of your life without marrying them. You can make someone a part of your family without marrying them, a foster child for instance. And you can spend the rest of your life with someone without marrying them (friends and family.) The reason to get married is for the fruits that come from matrimony, namely, my list for reasons to get married.
“To learn humility… you don’t know how selfish you are until you have children”
Better to be a selfish person without kids then to be a selfish person with kids. Why take the chance that having kids will change you? What if it doesn’t? Then the kids are s*** outta luck.
I like to compare sex to driving. It’s something that can be dangerous if done irresponsibly, and that nobody has to do, but most people want to. If we got rid of seat belts and airbags and speed limits and licensing requirements, we could probably persuade a lot of people not to drive. But why should we? (leaving aside concerns about the environment for a moment). And would it be worth the added danger to people who chose to drive anyway?
I personally believe there’s one thing responsible for the objectification and demeaning of women… CONTRACEPTION.
Haha, yeah, if you ignore all the objectification and demeaning of women BEFORE contraceptives were invented, then sure!!! Right on. Women were NEVER objectified before contraception was invented. And spousal abuse only started happening in the 1960s.
Riiiiight.
“If the woman does not meet this expectation she is dumped as my daughter’s 15 year old friend found out this year.”,
Yeah…and plenty of girls will dump guys if they don’t meet their expectation of not spending money on them.
Except what happens if nost guys are like this? And believe me it IS like this judging from what’s happening to friends daughters.
It doesn’t seem to matter if the boys are Catholic or not.
I believe the term is the “hook-up” culture that exists at many universities. And the friends with benefits notion.
You don’t think the “pill culture” encourages this? I certainly do.
Prior to the pill, women didn’t sleep around because they didn’t want to get pregnant. And alot of men didn’t ask because they didn’t want to be a father and end up married to the woman.
I was young once too you know, and I distinctly remember what it was like in university – no sex, no dates.
Cranky Catholic’s reasons to get married:
To experience the health benefits of breastfeeding
Posted by: Cranky Catholic at June 5, 2008 2:58 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Breastfeeding my spouse has health benefits?
Who knew?
“Prior to the pill, women didn’t sleep around because they didn’t want to get pregnant. And alot of men didn’t ask because they didn’t want to be a father and end up married to the woman.”
Now, these problems are less significant.
As a woman who was on the pill for 3 and a half years and is back on now, I can say that I don’t believe Combined Oral Contraceptives are abortifacients. I did not use the pill to “sleep around”. I used it as a married woman to help plan out my family. I have a daughter now.
Now I have a Master’s degree in Statistics. I’ve read the research so I didn’t dismiss it just because I am in favor of the pill. The research I’ve read saying the pill is abortifacient is pretty inconclusive and very outdated.
First things first:
The research never takes into account the differences in consistent pill takers(same time every day) and inconsistent pill takers (skipping days). The “breakthrough ovulation” rates in only one study are statistically reliable and that is a study dating back to 1984(24 years ago) based on ultrasound (probably the most accurate thing so far). The study never differentiates between “perfect” pill takers and those that are inconsistent in its rate.
Secondly, the second mechanism of the pill is to make the environment more hospitable to the sperm. This has never been studied on humans at all and the only experiment was done on rabbits. This is another “contraceptive” effect of the pill in that it prevents fertilization in the first place, yet it’s never been studied on humans so we have no idea how effective or ineffective it is.
Thirdly, the so-called abortifacient effect of the pill is that it thins the uterine lining to prevent attachment of the fertilized egg. Now, there is evidence that the pill does thin the uterine lining, but evidently it doesn’t do that too well because the pill still has a 7-8% pregnancy rate within the year of usage. If the pill were a real good abortifacient, no ONE would get pregnant on the pill. According to research, breakthrough ovulation tends to occur in women who are either taking interfering medications (certain antibiotics) and women who are inconsistent pill takers. These women, consequently, are the ones who tend to be pregnant. So it’s pretty clear the pill works as a better contraceptive and not much of an abortifacient.
Now, I have no problem with some people feeling convicted over Combined Oral Contraceptives. I feel bad about Progestin Only contraceptives which is why I refused to take them. Having done alot of research I found that POPs have a much higher breakthrough ovulation rate and could work in a more abortifacient manner than COCs. However saying that COCs are without a doubt factually proven to be abortifacients is scientifically wrong. There are some people which will not feel good about taking them and if your conscience bothers you then don’t do it. There’s nothing wrong with your actions at all. I just don’t think that touting “the pill is abortifacient” as scientific fact is right at all. There is no research to prove it and many PRO-LIFE gynecologists and obstetricians continue to reccommend the pill because they have found that there is no conclusive evidence to brand it as an abortifacient.
I think that people who don’t want kids should just get fixed anyway.
Thank you! If only the doctor would let me already! Seriously though, every time I bring it up, I practically get laughed at. “You’ll want ’em someday…”
Big friggin’ deal. I’ll adopt if I want ’em.
Speaking of getting too old, in about three weeks I’m going to turn twenty. I think I’ll die an old maid. And my biological clock is on its last few ticks : (
Posted by: Jess at June 5, 2008 2:55 PM
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Right Jess…
You have until 5:00pm Pacific Daylight Time tonight before your ovaries dry up and rattle like maracas when you dance.
Except what happens if nost guys are like this?
I think the answer is the same. If most guys are like that (and I don’t stipulate that they are), women still don’t need ’em. They’ll grow up eventually and learn to see women as more than warm bodies — and if they don’t, they’re terrible partners and women shouldn’t subject themselves to them.
Prior to the pill, women didn’t sleep around because they didn’t want to get pregnant.
Nobody has a right to withhold access to birth control in order to force people to change their sexual behavior. If you (general you) want people not to have sex outside of marriage/procreation/whatever, you are free to make the case, but you aren’t free to force them not to.
You have until 5:00pm Pacific Daylight Time tonight before your ovaries dry up and rattle like maracas when you dance.
Posted by: Laura at June 5, 2008 4:15 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wait, knowing Jess she’ll probably just integrate her maraca-like ovaries into a spicy latin dance performance.
“Better to be a selfish person without kids then to be a selfish person with kids. Why take the chance that having kids will change you? What if it doesn’t? ”
Jess,
There’s nothing worse than selfish parents who see their children as nothing more than accessories to be toted around.
Kids are NOT puppy dogs. These are people and if you are to selfish to care for them then sterilize yourself.
I am SO GLAD anti-choicers are FINALLY being up-front about their desire to ban contraception as well as abortion!
With 99% of American women using birth control at some point, this is exactly what the pro-choice movement needs to convince America, once and for all, that the anti-choice movement is anti-woman and un-American.
I PRAY TO GOD that you make this an ANNUAL event, and get LOTS AND LOTS OF MEDIA COVERAGE! Seriously, you don’t know how THRILLED the pro-choice movement is about this.
reality, 80% of pro-lifers are pro-contraception. The ones who are against it are just very energetic and organized and zealous.
You’re probably right that ALL is doing the pro-choice movement a huge service with this campaign.
However, the majority of women do NOT take the pill for medical reasons.
How do you know? Are there stats on that?
I’m one of those people who started on BC after I became sexually active and now, even if I stopped having sex for years and years, I would STILL take it because I feel WAYYY better now. I have fewer headaches, NO CRAMPS EVER (unless I eat bad food), shorter periods and I’m less moody.
I’m sure I’m not the only person who would stay on BC for the additional bonuses even if they weren’t having sex.
I think that people who don’t want kids should just get fixed anyway.
Thank you! If only the doctor would let me already! Seriously though, every time I bring it up, I practically get laughed at. “You’ll want ’em someday…”
Big friggin’ deal. I’ll adopt if I want ’em.
Posted by: Edyt at June 5, 2008 4:13 PM
Why don’t you just change doctors if that’s what you want?
Jen R,
Most people who’d consider themselves “pro-life” are pro-pill. See, most American women do take the pill, married or unmarried, for medical reasons or for reasons to delay childbearing or another child or never have children at all. The pill isn’t taken only by women who want to have indiscriminating sex and never deal with the consequences. TONS of married women take the pill and many women who take the pill have saved themselves for marriage and only plan on being with their spouse their entire lifetime.
Unfortunately, the 20%(or less) are the most vocal and the squeaky wheel always gets the grease. Not all people that don’t agree with the pill are going to condemn those of us who do, but there are a few that will (like ALL). Yes, I agree with Reality in that they are making pro-lifers look unreasonable and radical and zelous.
I just wish some organization that was both pro-birth control and pro-life would start up and do something.
Speaking of getting too old, in about three weeks I’m going to turn twenty. I think I’ll die an old maid. And my biological clock is on its last few ticks : (
Jess, PLEASE! 20 was one of the best years of my life.
From what I’ve seen, most of my single, unmarried friends are having a blast at 26, 27 and so forth. Life just gets better. Your car insurance goes down, your friends are cooler and established and have money to spend so you can buy better alcohol and go to fancier parties… the guys are older (whew! no more teenagers!!) and hopefully more mature, and … you’re still young enough to take advantage of young traveler discounts. Get out there and see the world while you don’t mind sleeping in hostels and backpacking and all sorts of other fun stuff!
It’s 30 you gotta be worried about. ;)
reality, 80% of pro-lifers are pro-contraception. The ones who are against it are just very energetic and organized and zealous.
You’re probably right that ALL is doing the pro-choice movement a huge service with this campaign.
Posted by: Jen R at June 5, 2008 4:22 PM
You don’t have to be anti-contraception to be anti-abortion.
What happened to the right to free speech? Ignore them if you don’t agree. What do you care what others think?
Why don’t you just change doctors if that’s what you want?
Oh, well honestly I don’t have health insurance right now, so even if I did find a doctor who would do it, I couldn’t afford to pay for it.
And I’ve recently found out about Essure but there are only a couple local providers who do it and I’m waiting for the results from the long-term studies to come back before I try it out.
militarywifey: click on my name. You might like what you find. :)
There isn’t a group that is specifically pro-life and pro-contraception. I think we’re just going to have to start one. Marysia and I have been tossing the idea around for a while. The problem is that we haven’t yet figured out how to communicate with the people who are on our side. The anti-contraception contingent is extremely organized; we’re really not.
I’m wondering how many of the people on this board right now would consider themselves environmentally conscious?
Militarywifey,
I like your posts and what you have to say. I hope you stick around and post more!
Even if I secretly hate the term “wifey.” Sorry!
Bee
Jen R,
I love your blog. I’m adding to the pro-birth control pro-life group I have on Facebook. I hope you don’t mind.
Bee,
Thanks for the comments. I don’t know how I came up with “wifey” but militaryspouse just didn’t sound as good:)
What do you care what others think?
I care because they’re saying things that aren’t true. I care because they’re making a movement that should be about the protection of human life into a movement that’s about controlling other people’s (especially women’s) sexuality. I care because they are making it far more difficult to get people to listen to reasonable arguments against abortion.
militarywifey,
Cool, thanks! I didn’t know there was such a group on Facebook; that may be enough to get me to join. I have resisted for a long time…
The pro-contraceptive group you’re looking for has been around for decades. It’s called National Right to Life.
How can one be prolife and pro-birth control? This is irrational.
National Right to Life is not officially anti-contraception, true. It’s officially neutral. It’s sure as heck not pro-contraception; it doesn’t defend it at all.
I’m wondering how many of the people on this board right now would consider themselves environmentally conscious?
Patricia, good question.
Not me, really – still live and do the same as always. I think that economics is what really makes most people change, i.e. people still drive their own vehicles, one person in them, frequently, a huge amount of time until the price of fuel is high enough to deter them, for example.
Jess, dang – that sounds like you got some teenage angst goin’ on about turning 20. I think you can give that up – 20 is so far from “old” that it’s crazy.
And anyway, pretty soon you’ll have to give it up muhahaahhaaahhhhaahahhahaha.
Edyt, same for 30. I know you’se kidding but what the hey.
I ain’t even sweatin’ 50.
I’m wondering how many of the people on this board right now would consider themselves environmentally conscious?
Hmmm… I sorta do. I recycle (although I don’t believe Chicago really recycles anything I sort) and take public transportation or bike instead of drive. I’ve written a few articles about ways to be more environmentally conscious or find an eco-friendly job… I try to by used or recycled clothes and furniture rather than new ones (don’t buy into the system!)…
But honestly, I don’t think the tiny personal efforts people do makes a difference. I think it’s ultimately the manufacturers who use up the majority of resources and pollute the most, and advertising efforts that have made the U.S. a throw-away society. So I don’t think what I do makes a difference. I think laws forcing manufacturers to be more environmentally-friendly would be, though.
How can one be prolife and pro-birth control? This is irrational.
And I think it’s irrational that a person can consider themself pro-life and not be 100% anti-war.
Actually, I think that’s more contradictory than irrational. :)
Bee.
Doug,
I’ll let you know how I feel about 30 once I hit that mark. ;) Then again, I’m perfectly content to grow old as a crazy cat lady, so I’m not too worried.
I try to be as environmentally concious as I can be.
I ride my bike or drive my scooter to work instead of taking my car whenever the weather allows it. I bring my own reusable bags when I go shopping and I recycle everything I can. I try to make environmentally friendly choices whenever possible but, like Edyt, I sometimes feel my efforts aren’t really making a difference.
Bee
Ha! I know you’re gonna do fine, Edyt.
There are some cool “crazy ladies” in this world.
I know of one – lemme go “find” her.
Well I’m not 100% anti-war. After all there are some things worth fighting for. Good thing your grandparents and my father and his brothers didn’t think that way when Hitler was around, Bee!
If you are prolife – this means you are open to all life. If you are not in a situation where you are able to support children then don’t do what leads to children.
Patricia,
My grandparents have always been pacifists. In fact, it was my grandfathers stories of what he had to go through and what he saw in WWII that sealed the deal for me (and him!)
Bee
I try to be as environmentally concious as I can be.
I ride my bike or drive my scooter to work instead of taking my car whenever the weather allows it. I bring my own reusable bags when I go shopping and I recycle everything I can. I try to make environmentally friendly choices whenever possible but, like Edyt, I sometimes feel my efforts aren’t really making a difference.
Bee
Posted by: Anonymous at June 5, 2008 5:02 PM
And do you use the BC pill? Do you wonder about all the hormones peed out by the millions of women who do?
Patricia,
My grandparents have always been pacifists. In fact, it was my grandfathers stories of what he had to go through and what he saw in WWII that sealed the deal for me (and him!)
Bee
Posted by: Anonymous at June 5, 2008 5:09 PM
However, I’m hoping Bee, that you would agree that it was a good thing that not all the “great generation” were pacifists. Otherwise America would be a very different country today, as would Canada.
I can’t say if it was a good thing or not, Patricia, as I have no idea what life would be like if history had been different.
That was me ^
Bee
Well, we do know what life is like because they fought Bee. And that is that millions of people DIDN’T continue to die in concentration camps throughout Europe.
Chamberlain tried the pacifist route and it didn’t work. Evil when not confronted directly spreads.
Used to be, there was a poster, that explained it:
“Answers to the Questions I Know You Are Asking”
“50,000 bulbs”
“One at a time, by one woman. Two hands, two feet, and one brain.”
“Began in 1958”.
At different times she also joked also joked,
“The work is done by two hands, two feet and a body minus a brain.”
Things changed over the years…
This garden consists of daffodils planted in drifts over the contours of a mountainous terrain covering approximately five acres.
I can’t say if it was a good thing or not, Patricia, as I have no idea what life would be like if history had been different.
Posted by: Anonymous at June 5, 2008 5:16 PM
So I’d say this is sidestepping the question!
Jen R, you rule at life. =)
Incidentally, on the way home from work just now, I witnessed two neanderthals (grown adult men) making fun of a dude with downs or cp on the subway. I just looked at them and said “oh, you’re real F*ing charmers, aren’t you”, and they both flipped me off and looked the other way. Cute. But the point of bringing this up is that the problem in this country is not with the fact that abortion is legal, but with the attitudes so many people have that lead people to believe an abortion is their best option. Whether its because of not having money, being a teen parent, or knowing your baby will have a disease or condition, there are so many JERKS out there to judge you and make you feel horrible about yourself. And anyone who says “who cares what other people think” is genuinely kidding themselves. We all know that being judged or made fun of hurts, and we all do CARE about that.
I liked MK’s analogy about the cigarettes. That being said, I know if they did ban cigs, my dad would be the first one to be running back over from the Canadian border with 3o cases of Marlboros screaming “LIVE FREE OR DIE MOTHER F*#@#ER!!!” Meanwhile, ask any high school kid whats easier to find…pot, or meth in the midwest, or coke in the cities – or cigs and booze. The overwhelming majority will tell you its easier to get their hands on the ILLEGAL drug, not the LEGAL but REGULATED one. In addition, because of the success of the anti-tobacco campaigns, the ATTITUDE has changed even though the laws haven’t. Teen smoking is waaaaayyyy down. Meanwhile, teen drug use is still steadily rising, especially pot, even though its completely illegal. Hence what I’ve finally decided, *I think* is my opinion about the legality of abortion. Keep it legal, regulate the hell out of it, and continue to work on changing the ATTITUDES that lead people to want one. It may be a more gradual shift, but I think it will be a less divisive, more comprehensive, healthy, and permanent one.
Patricia, again you’re picking and choosing what to blame. Millions of people take various medications. My mother, when she got out of the hospital, had to take 9 different pills every few hours. Did all that go into the water system? Probably a good portion of it.
Heart medication, mood stabilizers, asthma medication, birth control, medicine for backaches, headaches, stomachaches, and all other sorts of ailments, will all end up in the water system.
Are you proposing to ban all those meds too?
Lol Doug, my parents can’t wait till I move out for good (my sister already has her own place). They’ll get to be the young people they never really got to be before cause they had to work so hard when they were my age.
Oh and kind of off-topic my friend and I were at the mall yesterday and stopped by the pet shop. We were looking at the hamsters and there was this one ham that was sitting on top of the water bottle chewing on the cover trying to get out. We realized she was a lot bigger then the other babies and I realized she was their Mom. My friend said, “Wow she has seven babies!” I said, “No wonder she’s trying to escape.” Tehehe
Heart medication, mood stabilizers, asthma medication, birth control, medicine for backaches, headaches, stomachaches, and all other sorts of ailments, will all end up in the water system.
Posted by: Edyt at June 5, 2008 5:36 PM
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On the other hand, disposible diapers are one of the worst environmental hazards we have.
I guess the hormones stop a lot of diapers from reaching our landfills.
Edyt – don’t forget all the steroids and antibiotics from livestock. I believe a cow creates as much waste as a dozen or so human beings, and much of that waste goes directly in to the soil, and thus, the water supply. Unlike most human waste, which is at least minimally treated to filter out some of these things.
No but we could start with BC! Not really necessary. ;-D
You are correct however, Edyt, there are also antibiotics and other medications such as those for heart in our water as well. We will need to address this question.
Amanda, good point.
Patricia, it’s funny how we only seem to need to address this problem because sex is involved.
Well actually it isn’t just BC that’s being investigated – all sources are.
When I worked as a hyrdrogeologist in the mid 1980’s Pampers Disposables were investigated by a lab i was connected with. The leachate from the diapers was found to migrate through soil layers.
“Edyt – don’t forget all the steroids and antibiotics from livestock.”
Oh is this a good time to get on my soapbox and lecture everyone on the virtues of being a vegetarian?
*Hopeful* =D
Breastfeeding my spouse has health benefits?
*
Who knew?
Have I told you lately that you make me laugh? You nut!
Hehe… Jess…
But what about pesticides?
How can one be prolife and pro-birth control? This is irrational.
How so?
Using birth control is not being open to new life, in particular I refer to women using BC within marriage. Using birth control rejects a part of the life giving nature of being a woman – and is contradictory to what it means to be a woman. Using birth control means that you may have abortions very early in pregnancy -definitely NOT prolife.
Well, we do know what life is like because they fought Bee. And that is that millions of people DIDN’T continue to die in concentration camps throughout Europe.
Chamberlain tried the pacifist route and it didn’t work. Evil when not confronted directly spreads.
Things would have been different, too, if Hitler had been a pacifist, wouldn’t they? ; )
Things would have been different, too, if Hitler had been a pacifist, wouldn’t they? ; )
Posted by: Anonymous at June 5, 2008 6:06 PM
yes, but that is irrelevant because we KNOW Hitler was not and we KNOW what he was perpetrating on Europe at the time.
Now, these problems are less significant.
So, if it were possible to eliminate that whole “possible abortions very early in pregnancy” part, then there wouldn’t be such an uproar about it?
Amanda,
I LIKE your dad! As for the pill, I’d be happy to work on just abortion and leave the pill for another day. I feel it’s wrong on so many levels, but you guys are right. By focusing on that, we take the abortion issue off the table. Or at least make it seem like we’re lunatics.
I pray that one day I will live in a world where people don’t need contraception because life is viewed as something precious, but until then I’m comfortable with sticking to the abortion issue.
As to someone being happy that we are finally admitting that we wish the pill was illegal…read some of my earliest posts back in 2007 and you’ll see that I as well as many of us, have not tried to disguise the fact that we are anti-birth control…
Why this comes as a surprise is beyond me.
We’ve discussed Theology of the Body ad nauseum…
So, if it were possible to eliminate that whole “possible abortions very early in pregnancy” part, then there wouldn’t be such an uproar about it?
Posted by: Elizabeth at June 5, 2008 6:13 PM
Nope. Not for me. For the reasons I stated above and also the health problems assoc. with the pill.
So you think every woman should WANT to be a mother at ANY time? Why? I’m not saying being a mother isn’t a wonderful experience, but really, it’s not for everybody.
There are plenty of health problems associated with other drugs, what about those?
So you think every woman should WANT to be a mother at ANY time? Why? I’m not saying being a mother isn’t a wonderful experience, but really, it’s not for everybody.
Nope. But pretending we are like men is not right either. And that’s what the pill does. It makes us like men and act like men. I’m not a man, I’m a woman and part of being a woman is my ability to conceive and nurture a new life in my body. The pill removes that capacity sometimes permanently. It is the feminist’s solution to pregnancies which are “difficult” for women either by number or for health or whatever reasons.
However, note we as society and as women collectively, ask nothing of the men in our lives. No request that they exhibit some self control and respect for our feminine nature and capabilities.
I have been on the pill for what- 2 years or so now? I don’t act anymore “manly” than I did before I was on the pill and believe me- I’m not like men in appearance either. *points at chest*
Anyway, I’m on the pill for one of those “elusive” medical reasons. And I love it- I have no side effects from it because I’m one of those people who are hormonally out of whack and the Pill corrects that imbalance.
On the other hand, my Zoloft has some pretty wicked withdrawal symptoms and the first two weeks of being on the drug are pretty hellacious due to insomnia and stomach problems- that and it made me jibber-jabber like somebody high on crack. I also throw-up when I take the Zoloft improperly.
None of that occurs with the Pill for me, hm.
I have been on the pill for what- 2 years or so now? I don’t act anymore “manly”
By acting like a “man” and I don’t mean manly because that is a totally different thing altogether – I mean having “casual sex”. The pill makes our bodies like mens in that we can’t have babies. Men can’t and neither can women on the pill.
But again, you don’t have a right to withhold birth control from people so that they structure their sex lives the way you want them to (i.e., not having “casual sex”, which apparently means sex without the intention of conceiving.)
Feel free to try to persuade women to adopt your idea of what their sex lives should be. Persuasion is fine; force isn’t.
@Patricia: I don’t do that either. Never had sex, don’t really plan to anytime in the near future either.
Greetings Patricia,
As a man, I would like to politely refute every single sentence in your post above.
First of all, my girlfriend, one of your great pals here (Amanda), has been taking the pill since she was 15. I can assure you, with utmost sincerity, that there isn’t a single molecule of “manly” about her. She doesn’t behave like one, look like one, pretend to be one, nor wish to be one. While she may be feisty and independent, she is also feminine, nurturing, and has a maternal instinct more natural and true than any other girl I’ve ever dated. I’ve never seen anyone just “get” babies and kids the way she does. They are magnetized to her, as she is to them. I find it pretty damn sexy, to be honest.
As for your comment about “asking nothing of men in our lives”, it seems as though you’ve either encountered bad men in your life, or just wish to assume that is the truth to make a point. Either way, its FAR from true. It is actually people with your thought process, giving men no credit for wanting to be with a girl for reasons other than sex because she chooses to take birth control, as though we are all sexual predators. You’ve got it terribly reversed. I’m not with her because of the sex. We have sex because I want to be with her. I have the utmost respect for what you refer to as her “feminine nature and capabilities”. In fact, it is because of that I leave the decisions about birth control in her hands. She’s going to be an amazing mother someday. It’s sexy and exciting to think of her pregnant with my child. But not when it would be scary for her. Instead when I can provide for her so she wouldn’t have to go right back to work right away. That’s what she would “ask of me” as you put it, and its a responsibility I’ll be thrilled to take when we’re both ready.
I’m sorry that the men in your life have given you the impression that this is not the reality for most of us half decent guys out there.
That being said, I know if they did ban cigs, my dad would be the first one to be running back over from the Canadian border with 3o cases of Marlboros screaming “LIVE FREE OR DIE MOTHER F*#@#ER!!!”
I am a little bit in love with this mental image. :)
Actually it is the women who are making the decision to take birth control and block pregnancy, not the men, it is the women who make the pornography industry billions, not the men. It is women who aborted 50 million since 1973, not the men.
This is the worst generation of women in the history of mankind. A total rebellion to God.
You are HI-LARIOUS Jasper. :)
This is the worst generation of women in the history of mankind. A total rebellion to God.
Well, it’s nice to be superlative at something.
I do have to ask, though:
it is the women who make the pornography industry billions, not the men.
Men produce and consume the vast, and I mean vast, majority of porn. But because women appear in it (as do men!), it’s all women’s fault?
While she may be feisty and independent, she is also feminine, nurturing, and has a maternal instinct more natural and true than any other girl I’ve ever dated. I’ve never seen anyone just “get” babies and kids the way she does. They are magnetized to her, as she is to them. I find it pretty damn sexy, to be honest.
Mikemike,
I’m sure this is true, but only when the tiny little baby is brought into this world under what Amanda believes are the perfect conditions for the pregnant woman. Otherwise, she’s perfectly fine with having that little baby’s arms, legs, and head torn off.
You find that sexy?
First of all, my girlfriend, one of your great pals here (Amanda), has been taking the pill since she was 15. I can assure you, with utmost sincerity, that there isn’t a single molecule of “manly” about her. She doesn’t behave like one, look like one, pretend to be one, nor wish to be one. While she may be feisty and independent, she is also feminine, nurturing, and has a maternal instinct more natural and true than any other girl I’ve ever dated. I’ve never seen anyone just “get” babies and kids the way she does. They are magnetized to her, as she is to them. I find it pretty damn sexy, to be honest.
This is absolutely NOT what I am talking about. I am talking about a woman who cannot accept her fertility and the fact that her body works every month in a certain way. If your girl accepted this and if you accept this you would be married to her and having babies. You would be overjoyed to express your love for one another and see that love become flesh in your child. You do not. Instead you satisfy your sexual appetites in a manner that simply uses the other (although I admit you do not recognize it as such). Would you stay with your girlfriend if you were not to have sex for three years. I rather doubt it.If you loved your girl as you do then marry her but I doubt you believe you need a piece of paper. Her body was created to open to the gift of life (which she is not by taking the pill) and your body was created to give that gift to her (maybe you are willing to or maybe not).
I don’t expect you to accept my point of view because it is so opposite of what you have been raised to accept as the norm.
How many women mikemike have you slept with and then simply moved on or had the woman move on to the next relationship?
And for your info I do not think that all men are not decent. What I do think though is that men and women have a very distorted view of sexuality and have completely lost an understanding of what sexuality is for. It is not about recreational sex mike. Although that certainly is a component of sexuality. I have known some pretty decent men in my life including my wonderful father, some co-workers and friends who have helped me throughout my various careers and in my life.
Finally I don’t know how old your girl is but I’d be concerned if my daughter was taking the pill from age 15 onwards.
Just one more thought mikemike: Lets hope that when you and her “decide” to have that baby, her body KNOWS how to work again like it should.
@Patricia: I would have been on the pill when I was 14 or 15 had my pediatrician not been a massive bitch. Instead gave me a pregnancy test because she didn’t believe that I wanted it to control my massively out of control periods. My mom was livid because she too thought BC would be a good option for me (it worked for her) and she was just as embarrassed as i was that the pediatrician thought I was a skank.
@JLM: I knew you’d be back. :)
Was there ever any doubt?
Rae: You know I had very long periods when I was a teen with terrible cramping and lots of bleeding (as in flooding). In fact, the cramping was so bad sometimes I could hardly function. I always was soooo terribly tired and had lots of bloating as well.
I found that exercise helped a great deal as well as diet. I figure skated, ran cross-country, biked, hiked and cross country skied.
The best thing however, was when I had 4 children. A woman’s body is not designed to have 25 or 30 years of periods. And therein lies the problem. Our bodies are designed to have babies. The women (and men) on this board may not like that reality but that is how our bodies were created.
AFter my children, all my symptoms were much much improved. 4 children gave my body a 13 year rest which is what it needed. It was a natural rest, designed by nature. I don’t think the pill compares in any way to this.
Actually it is the women who are making the decision to take birth control and block pregnancy, not the men, it is the women who make the pornography industry billions, not the men. It is women who aborted 50 million since 1973, not the men.
This is the worst generation of women in the history of mankind. A total rebellion to God.
Posted by: Jasper at June 5, 2008 8:14 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
“Moral indignation is envy with a halo.”
_HG Wells
That’s really interesting, Patricia. I never thought about that. Because I know that a lot of woman have heavy bleeding and really awful periods, and that usually they are prescribed the pill (which I don’t have a problem with for that use, although it seems to be over-prescribed sometimes). I never realized that having a child might mitigate that. Shows how ignorant I am! But interesting, very interesting. God love you.
This is the worst generation of women in the history of mankind. A total rebellion to God.
Posted by: Jasper at June 5, 2008 8:14 PM
No. I think this sentence should just read
“ONe of the worst generations in the history of mankind. Total rebellion to God.”
In all fairness, I don’t think you can single out only women. After all it was TWO men who developed the BC pill, one of whom was a “Catholic”.
Funny thing how most men say they won’t take a male BC pill. Would you mikemike?
@Patricia: Are you saying I should have gotten pregnant when I was 14 so my periods would get better? I know, I know- I’m twisting your words, but really, I had horribly heavy periods too- and they’d last for a month. I’d only get them once or twice per year- but when I would get them they would go on forever, and the Yaz has helped tremendously.
I’m 20- never had a boyfriend or whatever, believe me, I won’t be getting pregnant anytime soon- so that method won’t work for me. My mom also had really awful periods like I do, she had 3 kids (two within a year and a half of eachother, the third 6 years later) and her periods didn’t get any better. Same with my grandmother who had 6 children- in fact she ended up getting a hysterectomy because of ovarian cysts.
Not doubting that pregnancy helped you, but there is a history of it *not* helping in my family.
@ Bobby: things were so bad some cycles I remember one time going into work (as a geologist) to the office and I must have looked like HELL. He saw I was very pale and he sent me home. Once I rested and then went for a weight room workout I felt much better.
Those 13 years were pregnancy and breastfeeding. The breastfeeding part was great because there are no hormonal fluctuations (for most women) as long as it is done “on demand” which means during the night too.
@Patricia: Sorry for talking about my family so much. I know it doesn’t interest you. I’ll try to refrain from it in the future.
“@Patricia: Are you saying I should have gotten pregnant when I was 14 so my periods would get better?
No obviously not. But I don’t think that putting a teen this young on BC is really very good. There are other ways of dealing with this problem.
I remember a girlfriend in hs who one year had a period that lasted for a YEAR! She finally told us one day at lunch (we were a group of 6 friends who hung out together). She did go to the doctor who did a D & C and she was fine. I don’t remember what the problem was.
Rae,
Have you given this a try yet?
20 Just then a woman who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years came up behind him and touched the edge of his cloak. 21She said to herself, “If I only touch his cloak, I will be healed.”
22 Jesus turned and saw her. “Take heart, daughter,” he said, “your faith has healed you.” And the woman was healed from that moment.
Matthew 9:20
Rae: no that’s fine really. I good to hear people’s stories.
Good grief I can’t type these days. It’s good to hear people’s stories.
Patricia,
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I was under the impression that BC produced similar hormones to those you naturally produce during pregnancy, signaling to your body that you were already pregnant and thus preventing you from ovulating again.
Essentially, you ARE giving your body a break because it already thinks it’s pregnant. Particularly with BC like Yaz and others that put off periods for several months.
So telling someone to get pregnant to “give your body a break” is not that different from telling someone to take BC to “give your body a break.”
What do you care what others think?
I care because they’re saying things that aren’t true. I care because they’re making a movement that should be about the protection of human life into a movement that’s about controlling other people’s (especially women’s) sexuality. I care because they are making it far more difficult to get people to listen to reasonable arguments against abortion.
Posted by: Jen R at June 5, 2008 4:44 PM
Who is “they”? Reasonable arguments against abortion need not be affected by arguments for or against contraception. They are two separate issues.
@Patricia: Oh my goodness- that had to *suuuuuck*. I can’t imagine having to use…”products” for that long. She was damn lucky she didn’t get TSS or a massive yeast infection.
I ended up not going on the pill till I was 18 when I switched from a pediatrician to a general practice doctor. I hated going to the doctor (still do) and therefore I figured it wouldn’t be worth my time to nag my pediatrician who I saw
@Patricia: I’m confused now, because previously I had talked about my family in response to your opinions that people who didn’t have a lot of kids are not open to life (or something) and you flat out told me that you don’t care about my family and that it doesn’t interest you.
So yeah- I’m confused.
what ever Rae?! If you like I will tell you to bug off and don’t tell me your stories. But I’m not in the mood. Besides there were reasons that I’m too tired to go into right now. Are you happy now – does that end your confusion!??
Edyt: BC is not natural; it tricks the woman’s body into thinking it is pregnant all the time. Except when she stops taking the pills during the cycle she has break through bleeding. This does not happen in most pregnancies.
A woman get’s pregnant, her hormones change through pregnancy and then she has the baby. When she breastfeeds she produces other hormones which help her “mother”. It is natural and our bodies were designed this way. There is very much a difference.
Amanda: Whether its because of not having money, being a teen parent, or knowing your baby will have a disease or condition, there are so many JERKS out there to judge you and make you feel horrible about yourself. And anyone who says “who cares what other people think” is genuinely kidding themselves. We all know that being judged or made fun of hurts, and we all do CARE about that.
Maybe you’re just not old enough too not care what other people think. It comes with age, believe me.
mk: As to someone being happy that we are finally admitting that we wish the pill was illegal…read some of my earliest posts back in 2007 and you’ll see that I as well as many of us, have not tried to disguise the fact that we are anti-birth control…
Being anti-birth control and wanting it illegal don’t have to go hand in hand. I agree with you that we should focus on the abortion issue here and not birth control. As far as birth control goes (abortifacients), I’d rather show women the truth and let them decide for themselves whether they want to take them or not. If enough women stop taking the pill, it will stop being produced. No need for legal measures. Sometimes I think that would be an effective way to handle abortion too.
It gets frustrating when you try to tell people the truth but they don’t want to hear it, ya know?
Janet, in this case, I’m referring to ALL.
“what ever Rae?! If you like I will tell you to bug off and don’t tell me your stories. But I’m not in the mood. Besides there were reasons that I’m too tired to go into right now. Are you happy now – does that end your confusion!??”
*sigh*
Patricia- that’s not what I was saying at all. Damn right I’m confused because you’re being inconsistent. You can quit being a snarky beeyotch at *any* time.
@ Rae: no thanks
You started it honey. Have a nice evening. It was a great discussion until your last post Rae.
As far as birth control goes (abortifacients), I’d rather show women the truth and let them decide for themselves whether they want to take them or not.
But Janet, the truth is that we have never done a study on whether or not BC actually prevents implantation of a fertilized egg in humans. We have NO idea. So why spread the “truth” that BC is an abortifacient, if there is NO proof that it does that at all?
BC is not natural; it tricks the woman’s body into thinking it is pregnant all the time. Except when she stops taking the pills during the cycle she has break through bleeding. This does not happen in most pregnancies.
Patricia, quite a few women have “break through bleeding” when they’re pregnant.
Again, I’m struggling to see how tricking the body into thinking it’s pregnant and actually getting pregnant makes a huge difference if the outcome is the same. If BC is actually regulating these women’s bodies (which many women report that it is, including myself) than why advise them to get pregnant instead?
Besides, there’s something like 25-50 percent of pregnancies that are miscarried naturally. Doesn’t that screw up a woman’s hormones too?
Edyt: When you are BC for 3-5 years straight, and your body thinks it’s pregnant that long, that’s not natural….make sense?
As far as birth control goes (abortifacients), I’d rather show women the truth and let them decide for themselves whether they want to take them or not.
But Janet, the truth is that we have never done a study on whether or not BC actually prevents implantation of a fertilized egg in humans. We have NO idea. So why spread the “truth” that BC is an abortifacient, if there is NO proof that it does that at all?
Posted by: Edyt at June 5, 2008 9:39 PM
So you think the American Life League is lying?
So you think the American Life League is lying?
I know better than to trust an organization with an agenda. I don’t know if they are lying per se, but I’m a skeptic. I need to see some conclusive evidence, such as a study funded by a neutral organization.
I bled with all of my pregnancies. It was not called “breakthrough bleeding.” It was called implantation bleeding by my doctor.
Personally, even if the pill DID prevent a fertilized egg from implanting, I still wouldn’t care. If the egg cannot implant, it will not grow. That in itself is enough to make me think that it is not an independent, living being. It’s a seed without soil. You need A (sperm), B (egg), and C (implantation) to have a pregnancy, not just A and B.
And implantation can fail for any number of reasons, one of which being the woman’s natural uterus fails to accept it, or is not built to sustain a fertilized egg.
So I don’t consider a pregnancy actually occurring until implantation, which is when the body starts releasing those hormones that turn up on pregnancy tests.
Janet —
Who is “they”? Reasonable arguments against abortion need not be affected by arguments for or against contraception. They are two separate issues.
Not when you claim that birth control IS abortion! How can you say that birth control and abortion are separate issues on a post titled “The Pill Kills”? Jen R. is ticked off because the vast majority of pro-life women (or on-the-fence women) will stop cold at the idea that they might be supporting a movement that wants to eventually target THEM and THEIR bodily integrity on a whim made of maybe’s and what-if’s. Do you really want to drive them into the “personally opposed, but…” camp just because we cannot disprove the POSSIBILITY that oral contraceptives may, in some circumstances, prevent implantation?
@Patricia: My apologies for being snarky- initially it was unintentional and I was honestly confused as to why the sudden change.
Regardless- I shouldn’t have questioned your motives. My bad and I’m sorry for wrecking a decent conversation.
You need A (sperm), B (egg), and C (implantation) to have a pregnancy, not just A and B.
That is true. But we aren’t talking about aborting a pregnancy. We are talking about aborting a human being. The new life will die without nourishment and shelter. But so would any life. I would die without the right conditions being met.
So while technically you are correct, a pregnancy has not taken place, this has nothing to do with whether or not a life will be ended. And that is the issue.
MK,
But where does the idea come from that life starts at conception? Why not say it starts with sperm, or with an egg? Why not say life starts with implantation?
When the egg finally implants itself (can happen up to 3 weeks after sex), it is still merely a “blob of cells.”
Like this:
I miss being a blob of cells.
Rae: LOL! It sounds so relaxing!
Edyt: conception is when a new organism comes into being and begins to develop according to its own genetic programming. Implantation is a necessary condition for this organism to continue living, not to begin living.
E,
So, if it were possible to eliminate that whole “possible abortions very early in pregnancy” part, then there wouldn’t be such an uproar about it?
For me, at least, no. I wouldn’t use it, and I would certainly be vocal about it, but no, I would not try to get it outlawed. This is an instance where “personal choice” really would have to come into play.
That being said, I know if they did ban cigs, my dad would be the first one to be running back over from the Canadian border with 3o cases of Marlboros screaming “LIVE FREE OR DIE MOTHER F*#@#ER!!!”
*
I am a little bit in love with this mental image. :)
You and me both…
@Jen R: I imagine it was- it would be nice not having financially taxing responsibilities like groceries and rent. I imagine it would be quite pleasant merely dividing each day, chillaxing out in the uterine lining.
Jen R,
But sperm are already living, are they not? Viruses are living, yet we don’t feel the need to protect their “right to life.”
How do you determine what is alive and what is not?
Edyt,
Jen R. pretty much said what I would say.
An egg will remain an egg no matter what you do with it. Just like a chicken egg. Put it in an incubator, sit a hen on top of it, it doesn’t matter, it’s still and egg.
A sperm is just a sperm. Short of freezing it, it will die in 72 hours.
But when the sperm and the egg meet?
I think that the picture you posted is the most amazing site in all of the world. More amazing than the grand canyon, a sunset in key west, or a room full of golden retriever puppies. That moment, when the sperm enters the egg, when new life begins…wow! That’s the whole ball of wax right there.
@Edyt: Viruses are considered non-living.
And actually Edyt, you could say that life begins WITH a sperm and an egg…but it begins AT conception. Two different things, really.
One is how, and one is when.
Patricia,
I believe Mikemike is Amanda’s boyfriend..as in the Amanda that posts here frequently. I believe Amanda said she took BC 2 1/2 years before she started having sex for her horrible periods. Just an FYI.
MK,
And a fertilized egg is just a fertilized egg. It will remain so if you do nothing to it. Prevent it from implanting, and it will die within days or weeks. It will not develop on its own without implantation.
Edyt,
How do you determine what is alive and what is not?
The question isn’t IS IT LIVING, the question is WHAT IS IT THAT IS LIVING?
A cockroach is living, but I have no problem abortin’ those little buggers. We are talking about human life, and human life is different from every other kind of life that we know. No cockroach every wrote a symphony or wrote Tale of Two Cities….
We are special. That’s just a fact. Nothing else even comes close. Perhaps that sounds arrogant, but the fact that we can know we are special, and consider that it might be arrogant, proves that we are indeed special. No other creature could be aware of the fact that they were unique, and then wonder if maybe they were being arrogant in thinking so…
@MK: But there are bacteria out there that can *breathe* rocks!
That is faaaaaare more awesome than symphonies. :-p
Edyt,
It will not develop on its own without implantation.
It’s already developing on it’s own. Starving it just stops the process. Even if you could keep the sperm (an egg isn’t really alive) alive indefinitely, it wouldn’t be devoloping. It is already finished becoming what it was meant to be.
If you starve a 3 year old, it two would not develop on it’s own. If you don’t touch a child (like in some orphanages) it also stops developing properly. But that is because something is being withheld.
From the moment of conception, that little “glob of cells” is changing and becoming at a rate that is mind boggling. Our inability to comprehend what is happening does not make it any less miraculous.
The amount of cells that embryo has from one hour to the next, the change it goes through in the few days it takes to implant…if we continued to grow at that rate into adulthood….well, it’s inconceivable. BUT, a sperm does not continue to grow and change…
Actually,
When you think about it, before birth is the only time we are actually “alive fully”. After birth we technically begin the process of dying.
Rae,
No way…really? What does that even mean? And that IS way cool.
But sperm are already living, are they not?
Not in the same way; they’re parts of an existing organism.
I wish I could go back to the womb.
:sigh:
It was so comfy.
MK,
You could say the same for eggs and sperm. Within the ovaries and testes, they spend time developing. If they do not find each other, they die. They need each other to sustain life. The fertilized egg needs the uterine lining to sustain its life. It’s not like eggs and sperm just “exist” and then magically find each other. They have to go through their own developmental process as well.
We are special. That’s just a fact. Nothing else even comes close. Perhaps that sounds arrogant, but the fact that we can know we are special, and consider that it might be arrogant, proves that we are indeed special.
Hahaha, well, I’m sure cockroaches think they are special for their own reasons as well. (“We can annoy and gross out humans in multitudes! They cannot do the same. They are not nearly as special as we are.”)
A baby girl has all the eggs she’ll ever have at birth. The sperm is created during sexual arousal. Again, they don’t develop into anything but what they are. The sperm will not develop further. It has finished it’s process by the time it is ejaculated.
Surely you see the difference between a sperm and a developing human being. The finished product of a developing sperm is a sperm. The finished product of a developing embryo is a John or a Mary. I don’t know about you, but I don’t name my husbands sperm, no matter how developed they are.
This is why I said that you aren’t asking the right question. It’s not IS IT ALIVE, it’s WHAT IS IT?
@MK: It’s true, bacteria can breathe rocks like we breathe air, but instead of bringing the final electron acceptor for cellular respiration to them like we do (we inhale oxygen to bring it into our bodies and therefore into our cells), bacteria pump out their excess electrons from cellular respiration out on to oxidized rocks (rocks that lack electrons) and therefore reduces them.
They are an important component to the iron cycle in nature.
I mean grass is alive. Right? But surely you don’t think that given the right conditions it will ever be anything but grass. And grass in nowhere near on the same plane as a human being. So killing grass, no problem…killing a developing human being…a little bit more so.
@MK: It’s true, bacteria can breathe rocks like we breathe air, but instead of bringing the final electron acceptor for cellular respiration to them like we do (we inhale oxygen to bring it into our bodies and therefore into our cells), bacteria pump out their excess electrons from cellular respiration out on to oxidized rocks (rocks that lack electrons) and therefore reduces them.
*
They are an important component to the iron cycle in nature.
Eh! Now yer just showin’ off…brat! Who knows this stuff? Who understands this stuff? Your mind boggles me. Seriously, there should be a law against people being that smart.
MK, those eggs are not fully developed. They too have to go through different levels of development. And sperm is created and stored until the semen picks it up (during arousal).
But you bring up grass, and I think that hits more at what I’m trying to say. There are grass seeds, but they will never develop past seeds unless they are embedded in the soil to grow. It has all the potential to be grass and it has come from grass but it is not grass. It is a seed. It needs the right conditions to become grass. I suppose you could say that we should not rip out the growing seed from the soil as it develops, but I don’t have any problem never allowing that seed to reach soil in the first place if we don’t want grass to grow.
Excuse for a moment, ladies, the cat is meowing at the door and desperately wants to go for a walk. I’ll be back in 10.
Edyt,
Hahaha, well, I’m sure cockroaches think they are special for their own reasons as well. (“We can annoy and gross out humans in multitudes! They cannot do the same. They are not nearly as special as we are.”)
Well then, those Madagascar Hissing Cockroaches must really be arrogant! lol
Yuk!
mk: The sperm is created during sexual arousal.
What? I thought there were a bunch already there……
@Edyt: You take your kitty for a walk? I’m jealous that your cat allows you to do that. My little bundle of fat and fur hated his harness and leash and would throw evil little cat fits when we put it on him.
@MK: Sorry…
Edyt,
I’m probably going to go to bed myself, so I’ll check in the morning for your response…
A seed potential grass. But something happens (maybe Rae could say what in scientific terms) that makes the seed “come to life”…it’s not just soil. Something acts as a catalyst and whether or not conditions are met, something happens and the grass starts to sprout. Maybe it’s moisture. Maybe it’s sunlight. Grass can sprout while it’s still in the bag. If an embryo needed to implant in order to “start” the process then the cells wouldn’t be multiplying at the speed of light BEFORE it implanted. See? Something happened. In the case of people, the sperm was encased in the egg, a new thing was formed and the cells began dividing…even before implantation. So life has already begun.
The seed (of grass) is more like the sperm or the egg ununited. But grass can reproduce itself…unlike human beings that need help from both sexes. So were’ better off using a chicken.
From the moment the chicken egg is fertilized, a new life begins. If the mother doesn’t sit on the egg then the life is ENDED, but it is not prevented from BEGINNING…
This is much closer in an analogy than grass because it require both a male and a female.
The life is there, in the fertilized egg. But for the life to CONTINUE, NOT BEGIN, it needs to be kept warm. Otherwise it will die. Not it won’t begin to live, but it will cease to live…
Edyt,
All of this happens BEFORE implantation…
Fertilization: If sperm does meet and penetrate a mature egg after ovulation, it will fertilize it. When the sperm penetrates the egg, changes occur in the protein coating around it to prevent other sperm from entering. At the moment of fertilization, your baby’s genetic make-up is complete, including its sex. Since the mother can provide only X chromosomes (she’s XX), if a Y sperm fertilizes the egg, your baby will be a boy (XY); if an X sperm fertilizes the egg, your baby will be a girl (XX).
Implantation: Within 24-hours after fertilization, the egg begins dividing rapidly into many cells. It remains in the fallopian tube for about three days. The fertilized egg (called a zygote) continues to divide as it passes slowly through the fallopian tube to the uterus where its next job is to attach to the endometrium (a process called implantation). First the zygote becomes a solid ball of cells, then it becomes a hollow ball of cells called a blastocyst. Before implantation, the blastocyst breaks out of its protective covering. When the blastocyst establishes contact with the endometrium, an exchange of hormones helps the blastocyst attach. Some women notice spotting (or slight bleeding) for one or two days around the time of implantation. The endometrium becomes thicker and the cervix is sealed by a plug of mucus.
http://www.webmd.com/content/Article/51/40790.htm
You take your kitty for a walk? I’m jealous that your cat allows you to do that. My little bundle of fat and fur hated his harness and leash and would throw evil little cat fits when we put it on him.
Yeah, sometimes, like tonight, he’s absolutely horrible, but other times he’s really well behaved. When I first started putting him in the harness he’d walk around like he was wounded, so I left it on him for a few hours and he got over himself. Now we’re working on the “rules”… I don’t leave the sidewalk and he’s allowed to walk onto the grass as long as the leash allows, but no further. If he’s bratty and tries to run, I drag his ass inside. He loves going outside so he’s usually pretty well-behaved. But after tonight’s behavior… well, let’s just say I won’t give in to any begging anytime soon!
Gosh, I really am a crazy cat lady.
Amanda: Whether its because of not having money, being a teen parent, or knowing your baby will have a disease or condition, there are so many JERKS out there to judge you and make you feel horrible about yourself. And anyone who says “who cares what other people think” is genuinely kidding themselves. We all know that being judged or made fun of hurts, and we all do CARE about that.
Maybe you’re just not old enough too not care what other people think. It comes with age, believe me.
Posted by: Janet at June 5, 2008 9:21 PM
………………………………………………………
Very very true Janet. It sometimes takes many years to get over the constant and very real necessity of pleasing parents, teachers, ministers, complete strangers ………..
One day you learn that you only need please yourself. Everything else falls into place.
@MK: It’s water and sunlight that causes seeds to sprout. There are certain chemicals in plant seeds that are phototropic- which causes the seed to sprout and grow *towards* the light. :)
MK,
I see your point, and I understand the steps. It’s just that I see it a bit mathematically. You need A + B + C = Pregnancy. And from P you need other things like a healthy environment for the fetus so that it continues to develop, a birthing process so the baby can be born, etc. Little kids need food and water and shelter and so forth to become adults. At each step of development, the child needs different things.
I guess I just look at the whole development thing as a continuation, at which at any point the development could be abruptly stopped and end the life, or potential for life as it may be.
Janet,
I just read more about sperm production than I ever wanted to know. It actually takes 64 days to produce new sperm, although the process was complicated. Boys start producing it at puberty.
My point, was that sperm is produced fresh, while eggs are there from the beginning. Women don’t produce new eggs. Men produce new sperm…
http://www.webmd.com/content/Article/51/40790.htm
Edyt,
I guess I just look at the whole development thing as a continuation, at which at any point the development could be abruptly stopped and end the life, or potential for life as it may be.
Which brings us back to, yes, you are right, pregnancy doesn’t begin until implantation. But abortion is not an abomination to us because it ends a pregnancy. It’s an abomination to us because it ends a life…a life that begins BEFORE implantation.
(I’m only capitalizing cuz I’m too danged lazy to use the italics stuff…not yelling at all)
I agree that it is a continuing process, but for us that process begins with fertilization and ends with death. Whether that death is natural or forced is what is at issue.
@MK: It’s water and sunlight that causes seeds to sprout. There are certain chemicals in plant seeds that are phototropic- which causes the seed to sprout and grow *towards* the light. :)
I knew you’d know. You’re like my own private encyclopedia! I love it.
Edyt,
I loved the cat tale…what a riot.
Okay, talk more in the morning. G’night all.
Women don’t produce new eggs. Men produce new sperm…
That’s actually one of the fears people have about egg donors. When you go in for egg donation, you force multiple eggs to mature at a fast rate. Usually only one to four are mature at any time, but with egg donors, they can mature anywhere from 8-12 eggs that are later extracted. (I think they use the same drugs that people experience fertility problems do… that’s why more eggs are released)
Anyway, I think they’re limited to only doing 6 extractions (depending on the clinic) in their lifetime because the fear that they’ll use up too many eggs and be unable to produce children of their own.
Random fact: Female babies are born with 1-2 million potential eggs, but only about 400 of those will mature in her lifetime.
MK:Women don’t produce new eggs. Men produce new sperm..
Thanks. Just wanted to clarify. By the way, the slideshow of sperm, egg, and fertilization on the website you linked to is awesome. (It includes the picture Edyt posted.)
http://www.webmd.com/baby/slideshow-conception
The life is there, in the fertilized egg. But for the life to CONTINUE, NOT BEGIN, it needs to be kept warm. Otherwise it will die. Not it won’t begin to live, but it will cease to live…
Posted by: mk at June 5, 2008 11:20 PM
……………………………..
Kept warm? Like mushroom spoors? Could you dehumanize the process any more?
It needs a great deal more than warmth mk. A fertilized egg cannot live as it is. It must develop or die. It must have the use of another’s life to do so.
It does not have the capacity of supplying itself with a brain, lungs, kidneys, liver…………. all of the things it needs to become a human being.
A fertilized egg is as dead as it is living.
I agree that it is a continuing process, but for us that process begins with fertilization and ends with death. Whether that death is natural or forced is what is at issue.
Okay, so is a woman equally guilty of “forcing” a death if she take BC or if she drinks caffeine or breastfeeds or does something else that essentially leads to the implantation failure?
Right now, we don’t know for sure if the pill even DOES prevent implantation. We really don’t know a whole lot about any of the factors that cause implantation failure, since it’s hard enough to tell if a woman’s pregnant with no hormone release.
Some embryos even fail to become blastocysts, so who knows what’s going on there?
“Some embryos even fail to become blastocysts, so who knows what’s going on there?”
@Edyt: Most likely a failure in division of the fertilized egg due to an abnormal number of chromosomes that are incompatible with life OR the cell’s natural defense kicks in and causes the cell to die due to severe mistakes in DNA replication.
Those are my guesses. :)
MK, after that slideshow they had a few others listed… including one on chocolate… mmm….
Rae, that’s interesting. I believe it’s a Jewish tradition that during a wedding they break a glass to signify the fragility of life. When I think about all the conditions that could go wrong (from sperm and eggs all the way up to adulthood), it really is apparent how fragile each of our lives are.
Patricia,
Elizabeth is correct. I didn’t go on BC at 15 because of sex. It was to stop me from spending 48 hours a month in bed being miserable and useless. The bf wasn’t exactly going to start talking about my period with you. heh.
As far you making assumptions as to whether or not my boyfriend would stay with me if we stopped having sex, all I can do is laugh. It never ceases to amaze me how people feel comfortable saying things like that without knowing the person or knowing a darn thing about them to base that assumption from. But if thats what you need to tell yourself to keep thinking you’re right and everyone else is wrong instead of actually responding to what he was saying… by all means…
JLM – uhhh… what? Where have I ever provided you with any indication I’d have an abortion? Let alone the late-term method you referenced? Way to go with the attention getter there. Did you have an actual point?
mk said 11:20: From the moment the chicken egg is fertilized, a new life begins. If the mother doesn’t sit on the egg then the life is ENDED, but it is not prevented from BEGINNING…
This is much closer in an analogy than grass because it require both a male and a female.
The life is there, in the fertilized egg. But for the life to CONTINUE, NOT BEGIN, it needs to be kept warm. Otherwise it will die. Not it won’t begin to live, but it will cease to live…
Sally, mk was referring to a fertilized chicken egg, not a human one.
Okay, so is a woman equally guilty of “forcing” a death if she take BC or if she drinks caffeine or breastfeeds or does something else that essentially leads to the implantation failure?
Who says caffeine or breastfeeding causes implantation failure? I’ve never heard of either.
Patricia said:
, note we as society and as women collectively, ask nothing of the men in our lives. No request that they exhibit some self control and respect for our feminine nature and capabilities.
Oh nonsense! Every time she says “not tonight dear, I have a headache,” “not tonight dear, the kids were a handful today” or “not tonight dear, I just did my hair” or better yet, “not tonight dear, I have an early meeting” and he says “OK hon” the man is exhibiting self control and respect for the wishes of his spouse.”
“I found that exercise helped a great deal as well as diet.”
Particia,I have 17% body fat and enough muscle to push through a 15 mile run. I keep track of what I eat and have an almost perfect diet of fresh fruits, vegetables and whole grains. The cramps still came, and hard. Well, maybe if I became anorexic I could stop getting periods all together! No more ice cubes for me!
Janet, caffeine can restrict uterine arterial flow, which may result in failure to implant. Breastfeeding often prevents ovulation, but it can affect implantation as well because of the luteal phase defect.
JLM, in response to your post on faithfulness curing aliments,
http://nogodzone.blogspot.com/2005_11_01_archive.html
“A tragedy struck four-month-old Caleb Tribble. He was killed by faith.
And now his parents, both devout Christians are defending themselves in court accused of manslaughter. Young Caleb was had blood poisoning form a urinary tract infection.
The father, David, says that the night before he died the child
Obviously, God didn’t like Caleb.
And if anyone here has ever had a UTI, then you can probably imagine the pain this kid went through when he died of one. As good Christian parents they’ll probably have a bunch more kids. Hopefully they’ll have more faith then Caleb.
Kept warm? Like mushroom spoors? Could you dehumanize the process any more?
It needs a great deal more than warmth mk. A fertilized egg cannot live as it is. It must develop or die. It must have the use of another’s life to do so.
It does not have the capacity of supplying itself with a brain, lungs, kidneys, liver…………. all of the things it needs to become a human being.
A fertilized egg is as dead as it is living.
Ummmm…Sal, I was talking about a chicken there…
Edyt,
I guess the difference would be that at that point, a woman wouldn’t know she was pregnant and drinking coffee to stop implantation would not be intentional.
Stopping implantation would be the “purpose” of taking the pill, however. (Assuming of course that we’re talking about someone taking the pill to prevent pregnancy)
So intent plays a huge role here. But again, as I said, while I personally feel that birth control is morally wrong (again, if it’s being taken to prevent pregnancy), and as long as there is no definitive proof that it causes abortions, I would not actively take steps to have it outlawed. I would NEVER condone it’s use in pregnancy prevention, but wouldn’t fight to have it banned either.
If however, it was ever PROVEN to abort fertilized eggs by preventing implantation, then I would change my tune.
I think focusing on this one area is counterproductive, unless we are talking about opinions. Given a choice, I wish birth control was no longer an option, but at this point in time I would still leave it up to the individual woman.
Much like homosexuality. Or premarital sex. While I believe they are wrong, I think their legality is not really up to me.
Outright abortion, however, is a different thing as another human being is being harmed/killed. This is a much different kind of moral offense than sex outside of marriage. An innocent party is involved, and abortion falls more under the category of theft than sex.
I have 3 friends that were breastfeeding and enjoying their new babes and Wow! They are pregnant again. :)
A luteal phase defect is actually a lack of progesterone. I was diagnosed with it. I lost a baby because of it. I went the whole fertility route. Drugs, tests etc. Started taking natural progesterone cream because I was told I would ALWAYS need Clomid to get pregnant.
Had 2 more boys! :)
CarlaA luteal phase defect is actually a lack of progesterone.
Is this common? A result of breastfeeding?
Patricia said:
, note we as society and as women collectively, ask nothing of the men in our lives. No request that they exhibit some self control and respect for our feminine nature and capabilities.
Oh nonsense! Every time she says “not tonight dear, I have a headache,” “not tonight dear, the kids were a handful today” or “not tonight dear, I just did my hair” or better yet, “not tonight dear, I have an early meeting” and he says “OK hon” the man is exhibiting self control and respect for the wishes of his spouse.”
Posted by: Anonymous at June 6, 2008 12:48 AM
I am referring to unmarried couples. and dating.
Carla,
I had no trouble spacing my babies through breastfeeding. I use to be a LaLeche League leader and the key component to breastfeeding seems to be “on demand” and through out the night. Once night nursing ceases then a woman’s periods return or she ovulates and can become pregnant.
I was told that I miscarried the first time because I came off the pill and my body was not making enough progesterone. Luteal phase defect is the medical term.
The myth is that you CAN’T get pregnant while nursing which is false, as many of my friends can attest to. :)
I had to leave the spacing of my children up to God. Because of the Clomid my cycle was messed up and I had another miscarriage and decided to investigate for myself why my body wasn’t producing progesterone or if I was estrogen dominant. I read everything I could get my hands on by Dr. John Lee.
I would have to disagree personally with demand feeding. I nursed on a routine. Not sure we really want to go there, though….
JLM – uhhh… what? Where have I ever provided you with any indication I’d have an abortion? Let alone the late-term method you referenced? Way to go with the attention getter there. Did you have an actual point?
Amanda,
WOW…you really CAN twist people’s words, can’t you? I’ve seen others mention this before as well. Read my post to Mikemike again….
Or…maybe I’m not up-to-par on your stance??? Are you still pro-choice? Are you still ok with women aborting their own if it’s “not the right time” for them to have a child? I said NOTHING about you having an abortion. I am very well aware of your handful of posts that mentioned that YOU would never have an abortion yourself. But, you’re still OK with others having one, if it’s “right” for them, am I correct? Now try really hard not to twist my words here. I’ll help you out. You don’t like abortion, you wish no one “had to have one”. But you are not pro-life to the effect that you want abortion made illegal, are you? Isn’t it you that is an admin for a pro-choice site?
Please re-read that post again. I would really like to know if your bf Mikemike still thinks it’s sexy to condone tearing off baby’s limbs because the woman (or girl) wasn’t “ready” to have a baby. And please refrain from word-twisting this time.
Thanks.
Carla,
It sounds like you have had hormonal problems though?
So what I’m talking about is a woman with normal amounts of hormones.
My friend who is expecting her 9th child also got pregnant while nursing. However, her nursing through the night was sporadic and another interesting thing I’ve noticed is that while she has HUGE babies (over 11 lbs – can you imagine?) they simply don’t gain weight well after birth. This makes me further suspect that she has a hormonal problem and does not produce enough of the right kind of milk for a baby to gain weight. (I’ve seen a few cases of this over the years)
You would know if your body was producing significant progesterone by measuring your basal body temperature over several cycles.
Hi Edyt. I tend to think quite mathematically, too. :)
It really is an embyological fact that human life begins at conception i.e. that we were ALL once embryos, and if anyone had killed that embryo that was in my mother’s womb 28 years ago, that would have been me that they killed. It is also a scientific fact that we are neither the sperm nor the oocyte nor some sort of “combination” of the two. When the sperm meets the egg (under properly functioning processes) science tells us that the oocyte and sperm no longer exist. The entities that were once sperm and oocyte are now completely annihilated, and an ontologically (I just jumped into philosophy) new being exists.
I copied and pasted a bunch of quotes from embryology texts to back up my claims in a previous post way at the top (about the 70th post) and they are very much pertinent to the question that ya’ll discussed last night. Hope it helps.
My hormonal problems I attribute to being on the pill, the medication I took to get my period started again(can’t think of the name)and Clomid. My body didn’t have the natural progesterone to sustain a pregnancy.
I had normal amounts of hormones once I started on the natural route.
I have never heard the term “the right kind of milk” The right kind of milk your body produces is the right kind of milk for your baby.
Done the temp thing, the charting thing, the nursing thing…. :)
I use the cream through my cycle and haven’t had any problem with ovulation since. Been on the cream for 5 years, it is supposed to help throughout premenopause as well.
HI JLM!
I’ve missed you!!
Hi Carla,
Just a quick response before I take Becca for a practice with her accompanist.
Your body produces two kinds of milk. The fore milk is the really tasty stuff to get that baby interested!
The hind milk is very fatty and nutritious and that is the milk that makes a baby gain those lovely chubbles!
Once had a young woman come to a meeting with a sick baby. When I took one look at the baby I hade to walk away to calm myself because it was obvious to me that there was something terribly wrong with this little one.
Turns out his mom wasn’t producing ANY hindmilk and he was starving despite being at the breast!
My dad use to say to me” Gee I thought it was just so easy and natural to breast feed!”
It usually is but like everything else some times things don’t work out…
God bless you CArla!
So you were talking quantity and amount of time at the breast and not quality is what I think I hear you saying. :)
God bless you, Patricia!!
AHAHAHAHAHAAHA @ JLM
Please tell me what words I twisted.
here is your post:
“I’m sure this is true, but only when the tiny little baby is brought into this world under what Amanda believes are the perfect conditions for the pregnant woman. Otherwise, she’s perfectly fine with having that little baby’s arms, legs, and head torn off.
You find that sexy? ”
Let me repost that one zinger one more time since you don’t seem to be reading what you wrote…”Otherwise, she’s perfectly fine with having that little baby’s arms, legs, and head torn off”
Now let me repost MY response to that:
1. Where have I EVER given the impression that I would do that? And I wouldn’t do it, how does it make sense that I’d be “okay” with it?
2. Just for the fun of appealing to emotion, you referenced a term abortion method, which I have NEVER, not ONCE supported being available for anything other than a medical/health issue. So you PWND yourself by feeling the need to mention tearing limbs. If you’d not felt the need to go for the emotional appeal, you may have actually had a valid point. But you didn’t anyway, because Michael, born and raised Catholic with 4 siblings, has pretty much identical views on abortion as mine.
…I’m sure this is true, but only when the tiny little baby is brought into this world under what Amanda believes are the perfect conditions for the pregnant woman. Otherwise, she’s perfectly fine with having that little baby’s arms, legs, and head torn off.
I can’t believe I really have to explain this. FOR THE PREGNANT WOMAN (did you see that?)
You are PC. If a poverty-stricken 14-year old is pregnant, (or something like that) and doesn’t want to be pregnant anymore (which, to you and the 14-year old are NOT the perfect conditions) you are ok with having that little baby’s arms, legs, and head torn off (ie, ABORTED).
And please, don’t get me started on your “late term” comment…unless you seriously want me to believe that you believe a 11-week old fetus doesn’t have arms, legs and a head and can easily fit through a suction tube without being torn apart first or during the suction.
Amanda…YOU ARE PC!!!! Are you not?
Now, my question to Mikemike again….Do you find that sexy?
Amanda,
One more thing…thank you very much for not “rolling your eyes”.
That visual makes me ill.
mk — Hi!
Stopping implantation would be the “purpose” of taking the pill, however. (Assuming of course that we’re talking about someone taking the pill to prevent pregnancy)
But see, not really. If there is no evidence that the pill does in fact stop implantation, but just the caveat that it MAY, then stopping implantation is not the purpose of taking the pill, even if it’s being taken for birth control. The purpose of taking the pill is preventing ovulation.
For many people, preventing ovulation is not worth the risk of stopping implantation, and that’s fine. Hey, I’ve decided that preventing ovulation is not worth the hormones. ;)
I think focusing on this one area is counterproductive, unless we are talking about opinions.
I think we agree on this, and I think it’s a good attitude to have. It’s not like we have to be against each other on all accounts or something. Just yesterday I recommended NFP to a friend!
LOL. are you having fun working yourself in to a frenzy over this?
I will repeat myself one more time since you’re not getting it.
You said “Otherwise, she’s perfectly fine with having that little baby’s arms, legs, and head torn off.”
FIND ME A SINGLE POST IVE MADE WHERE I SAY I AM “PERFECTLY FINE” WITH THAT.
kthanks.
So you were talking quantity and amount of time at the breast and not quality is what I think I hear you saying. :)
God bless you, Patricia!!
Posted by: Carla at June 6, 2008 8:06 AM
Well, in a sense it’s quality because the milk doesn’t have enough fat in it for the baby to put on weight. But that is not the fault of the mom necessarily unless she has a very poor diet, in which case her body will take from itself to meet the demands of nursing. (Which is why a mom shouldn’t really diet when nursing)
The quantity comes from the “on demand” nursing because that builds up the milk supply.
But this woman was missing some hormone (i don’t remember the exact details because we sent her to Toronto to a clinic there and she stayed in hospital and nursed while the doctors figured out just what was wrong – she was really determined to breast feed!)
But you are absolutely correct Carla that each mother’s milk is designed specifically for her baby – if a baby’s premature, the milk is different than if the baby was full term.
And of course, you are the exact mother God had in mind for your baby too!
God bless.
(hint, JLM, theres a post right here in THIS thread where I make it QUITE clear I’m not “perfectly fine” with abortion. So glad you’ve been reading)
*eyeroll*
Have a good one buddy! =)
“Just yesterday I recommended NFP to a friend!”
Woo hoo, Alexandra!
Amanda,
Woo-hoo!!!! You mean you’re not PC anymore? You’re pro-life now? I knew it always COULD happen, but I didn’t think it would be this soon!
I am so happy to hear that you do not condone abortion anymore.
You made my day. I will have a nice one now.
Thank you, my pro-life buddy!
:) x 40,000,000!!!
Amanda FYI:
This article comes from Lifesite news and details a presentation made at a conference in Ottawa Canada in 2006:
“During the Humanae Vitae Conference “A New Beginning” last year, noted endocrinologist Dr. Maria Kraw explained how many so-called contraceptives actually result in fertilization and end in the abortion of a new human person during its early development.
“Introducing her topic, the “Medical Consequences of Contraception,” Dr. Kraw began by stating that she refrains from using the word “contraception.” This is because it implies solely the “prevention of conception,” whereas in reality many so-called contraceptives result in a myriad of other harms, including abortion.
“As a practicing endocrinologist (hormone doctor) at St. Michael’s Hospital in Toronto, Kraw focused mainly on the effects of hormonal birth control. Artificial hormonal birth control works by introducing artificial estrogen and artificial progesterone (progestins), at 4 to 10 times the dosage naturally produced by the body. These dangerously high levels trick the brain into thinking that the person may be pregnant and cause ovulation to stop.
“The pill also prevents conception by thickening the cervical mucous so that the sperm can’t reach the egg. If this doesn’t work, the pill prevents the implantation of an already fertilized egg. This occurs when a new human person has already been conceived, Kraw stated, but after the artificial hormones have thinned the uterus lining. “So rather than sort of snuggling into a nice nourishing uterus to continue development,” she explained, “the uterus is hostile and the embryo is discarded.”
“Most pills are combined hormonal pills with both artificial estrogen and artificial progesterone. The progesterone-only pills, however, don’t prevent fertilization, but work primarily by thinning the uterus lining. Depo-provera, for example, is a progestin that is injected every three months and strips down the lining of the uterus. Similarly, the intra-uterine device (IUD) causes “inflammation and scarring of uterine lining,” thereby preventing implantation.”
“Barrier methods such as condoms, sterilization, diaphragm and spermicides work by aiming “to prevent a meeting of the sperm and the egg.” Nevertheless, statistics published by Family Planning Perspectives note an extremely high percentage of “reproductive failures”, i.e. pregnancy. The birth control pill has a 12.9% pregnancy rate; condoms have an incredibly high 23.1% pregnancy rate, diaphragm 20%, depo-provera 4.2% and spermicide 25%.
“Given on average the amount of months that a woman uses artificial birth control during her reproductive years,” said Kraw, “which is a majority in the reality of North America, there will be 1.8 ‘reproductive failures’ per woman’s reproductive life.”
“According to previous studies, only about 50% of pregnancies in the US are intended, Kraw stated. “Among those that reported unintended pregnancies, 50% said they were using a form of artificial birth control properly at the time of the conception. So it’s not like, ‘Oh I was on the pill, but I missed it for a week’ because that wouldn’t be considered being on the pill.”
Finally, 50% of those “reproductive failures” end in abortion.
If abortion is defined as “any interruption in the normal development of the embryo,” methods that “prevent implantation” are abortive. Breakthrough ovulation rates (fertilization occurs, but implantation fails), for example, can happen in up to one third of cycles on the pill. In combined hormonal birth control pills, this occurs from 1.7% to 28.6% per cycle, whereas with progestin-only pills, fertilization rates are from 33% to 65% per cycle.
These are relatively high rates, Kraw noted, considering that 80% of North American women have used a hormonal method for birth control by the time they finish their reproductive years.
Tragically, after discontinuing birth control, women also experience high infertility rates. Fertility rates are 26% lower after using birth control, and 29% lower after using the IUD. In addition, even the so-called “low-dose” pills cause a 2 to 6 times increased risk of blood clots throughout the body.
Kraw stated, “They started off using ten times the amount of estrogen-‘We’re really going to shut down that brain’-Well, what happened? Women died in the first phase trial of these medications, but they were in Puerto Rico so, (the attitude was) ‘well
“These dangerously high levels trick the brain into thinking that the person may be pregnant and cause ovulation to stop.”
Dangerous? Nope. The Pill has gone through FDA scrutiny since its legalization. There has never been a risk, or “danger” greater than the average medication discovered…long term, short term, etc., unless OTHER factors, like smoking, are invovled. This makes it no more dangerous than any other medication out there.
“If this doesn’t work, the pill prevents the implantation of an already fertilized egg. This occurs when a new human person has already been conceived, Kraw stated, but after the artificial hormones have thinned the uterus lining. “So rather than sort of snuggling into a nice nourishing uterus to continue development,” she explained, “the uterus is hostile and the embryo is discarded.”
Uhhh… we went over this yesterday. THIS HAS NEVER BEEN PROVEN. IT IS A THEORY. Anyone who tries to pass it off as fact is being intentionally decietful. And… Snuggling?
LOL – yeah, this is a great unbiased source.
Patricia,
That was my experience on the pill. Struggling with fertility. I hope and pray that all of these precious, college ladies whom I have come to care about do not go through what I went through after years on the pill.
Amanda,
Care to share anything? :)
Carla: amen
BC and abortion are the big lies.
“…and she can see me up on the porch, yelling at the kids to “get off the lawn you little punks,” while I pull up my pants that are already too short for my legs.”
Would that be the same porch that you told me you sometimes pee off of, Doug?
Bobby, it’s a future porch, possibly a figurative one.
Carla – it can, and often does, take time for a woman’s cycle to return to normal and allow her to be fertile again. There is no “lie” about that, Patricia, it’s right there in the literature provided with the pill.
No one should expect to get pregnant 6 months to a year after going off the pill.
Over time, fertility does return to normal for the VAST majority of women. So obviously a study done on women who have just gone off bc WILL show a dip in fertility, but over the long term, the FDA has never found any significant loss of fertility. Again, just like ALL medications, some people have more serious and permanent side effects – so I’m not saying this is never the case, but statistically I’m more likely to die in a car accident than suffer long term infertility because of the pill.
Well I guess Amanda like they say – it’s your choice.
I will find proof that this research has been done and I will post it on this site for you.
This woman is an endocrinologist from St. Mikes in Toronto – a highly esteemed hospital.
What would it take to prove to you that you are harming your body and possibly your chance to have children some day?
You are very naive if you think that the pharmecuetical companies didn’t push through the pill without proper studies. Don’t you think they went to bed at night with visions of dollar signs dancing in their collective heads?
Maybe you should ask your bf this question.
Would he stay with you if you went chaste on him until marriage. And would he consider you for marriage. Most men do not consider their partners they live and have sex with as the woman they will someday marry. Studies has shown this to be the case. On the other hand, the WOMAN does consider the live in relationship with sex as a sign that the BF will marry her.
I note there was no response from him last night.
Amanda,
I didn’t expect to pregnant 6 months after the pill.
I got pregnant a year later and miscarried. It was about getting pregnant and STAYING pregnant for me. Struggled with fertility and treatments for 8 years, babe. I have no study on that. Friends of mine have had similar experiences with fertility issues and miscarriage after years on the pill.
To say that there is a dip in fertility is saying what exactly? To want a child so much and lose not just one but two was heartbreaking. Hope you never have to go through it when you are ready to start your family, Amanda.
Patricia – he didn’t respond because he fell asleep. I was on my laptop in bed, and he read the post of yours that he responded to over my shoulder.
As for your assumptions, he was with his first girlfriend for 5 years and didn’t have sex with her. She broke up with him when he moved to Paris for a year. There’s no doubt in my mind he would have married her if she hadn’t broken up with him. He and I haven’t been together long enough for EITHER of us to know for sure about getting married, but its certainly in mind. We’re both “marriage-minded” I guess you could say. He wants a family just like I do. Sorry to dissapoint – but he just doesn’t fit your stereotype of a man, no matter how many assumptions you continue to make.
Amanda: “Just for the fun of appealing to emotion, you referenced a term abortion method, which I have NEVER, not ONCE supported being available for anything other than a medical/health issue.”
health issue? like a headache, your position are no different from Obama’s.
“So you PWND yourself by feeling the need to mention tearing limbs. If you’d not felt the need to go for the emotional appeal, you may have actually had a valid point. But you didn’t anyway, because Michael, born and raised Catholic with 4 siblings, has pretty much identical views on abortion as mine.”
Well, there are many bad/fake Catholics out there who support baby killing. No surprize.
Jasper –
Please show me where I said a headache was a health issue that warrants an abortion.
I like how you just invented that so you could make a comment. Good show!
And just like I told JLM this morning, if you read my post to MK in this thread, you would know my position is quite different from Obama’s. But acknowledging that would just spoil your fun of being nasty to me, wouldn’t it… and gosh, I wouldn’t want to ruin that for you, God knows it makes your day.
Amanda,
“if you read my post to MK in this thread”
What is the time of that post so I can find it? Sorry, there’s a lot of posts here and I don’t have a whole lotta time today. God love you.
Bobby – I’ll repost:
I liked MK’s analogy about the cigarettes. That being said, I know if they did ban cigs, my dad would be the first one to be running back over from the Canadian border with 3o cases of Marlboros screaming “LIVE FREE OR DIE MOTHER F*#@#ER!!!” Meanwhile, ask any high school kid whats easier to find…pot, or meth in the midwest, or coke in the cities – or cigs and booze. The overwhelming majority will tell you its easier to get their hands on the ILLEGAL drug, not the LEGAL but REGULATED one. In addition, because of the success of the anti-tobacco campaigns, the ATTITUDE has changed even though the laws haven’t. Teen smoking is waaaaayyyy down. Meanwhile, teen drug use is still steadily rising, especially pot, even though its completely illegal. Hence what I’ve finally decided, *I think* is my opinion about the legality of abortion. Keep it legal, regulate the hell out of it, and continue to work on changing the ATTITUDES that lead people to want one. It may be a more gradual shift, but I think it will be a less divisive, more comprehensive, healthy, and permanent one.
Posted by: Amanda at June 5, 2008 5:33 PM
How Jasper and JLM got, from that, that I’m “perfectly fine” with abortion and that I think a headache is a valid reason to have one… *shrugs*
OK, thanks Amanda.
Amanda I have some tidbits for you to consider:
First you should know that there are some Christian prolife doctors who do not accept that BC pills are contraceptive. However I would like to consider the following. Please be open minded.
From AAPLOG’s website:
Randy Alcorn
Sorry Amanda, I guess only time will tell.
All i can say to you is that a strong predictor of divorce is those who live together prior to marriage. Repeated break-ups teach people to be less giving of themselves.
Whatever the reasons for your boyfriend’s relationship demise, nvertheless, he and you are practicing for divorce.
Amanda: you might consider this piece also. Please keep an open mind since this organization is concerned with women and their place in society today.
http://www.cwfa.org/articledisplay.asp?id=10218&department=BLI&categoryid=dotcommentary
Patricia, correlation does not equal causation. It is very likely that the higher divorce rate for people who live together before marriage has to do with people who refuse to live together before marriage being more likely to be people who do not believe in divorce. People who see no moral objection to living together outside marriage are less likely to object morally to divorce, and thus are more likely to choose divorce should problems arise. That is to say, both the decision not to live together and the lower rate of divorce may be caused by religious or cultural beliefs, rather than the lower rate of divorce being caused by the decision not to live together.
Whatever the reasons for your boyfriend’s relationship demise, nvertheless, he and you are practicing for divorce.
Posted by: Patricia at June 6, 2008 11:33 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gee, Amanda lives in sin, yet her man is still around.
I live in sin, yet my man is still around.
You got married, and your man is GONE.
How did you “practice for divorce?”
Hahaha, Patricia, you are living in a fantasy land of assumptions to serve your purpose.
First of all, we don’t live together.
Second of all, Im his SECOND serious girlfriend. That’s “continuous breakups”? Really? Aren’t you divorced? Glass house…throwing stones…
I love how once you found out you were wrong about him wanting sex right away, you just skipped over that and went on to your next assumption.
Its sad to me you need to be so negative about other people’s lives. Both of our parents are still married. Mine for 30 years, his for 28. Both of them lived together before they got married. Both of our mom’s used birth control. His mom went on to have 5 kids, my mom had 3. So don’t you worry. The people who know us and love us …the people who’s business it is to be concerned…aren’t.
As for your second pro life link, yes, again, that doctor’s THEORY is that the pill prevents implantation. THEORY means some people believe it, other people don’t – and there has yet to be proof to make one side right and the other wrong. So you can keep sending me articles about INDIVIDUALS who support that theory, and I can keep sending you articles about INDIVIDUALS who don’t. Either way, we go around and around in circles, because IT IS A THEORY. I know I’m not ovulating, because if I was, my symptoms would still be present. They’re GONE. So since I’m not ovulating, the implantation theory is a non-issue for me. For a woman who isn’t sure, or doesn’t want to take the chance that theory is correct, she should use condoms instead. It’s really not for other people to decide.
All i can say to you is that a strong predictor of divorce is those who live together prior to marriage.
Awhile ago I posted a study that noted the opposite. The author wrote that when those earlier studies were done, most of the people who cohabitated were of lower economic class and likely living together for the benefits (lower rent, combined bills, etc.) and later married for subsequent benefits (health care, tax breaks, so forth). In other words, these people considered marriage for the purpose of benefits rather than for love alone.
What the study indicated was that previous studies did not take into account economic status as well as other factors as to why couples led to divorce. It only considered cohabitation before marriage.
Like Alexandra noted, correlation =/= causation.
In today’s society, more cohabitating couples are middle class and we have seen successful marriages as a result.
There is also significant evidence that having children is stressful, both economically and emotionally, and with lower-class families the stress burden is higher, thus resulting in the break-up of what otherwise could have been a successful marriage. Stress makes people unhappy, and sometimes that unhappiness is blamed on the marriage, rather than the actual root of the stress.
Amanda:
As I said Amanda, only time will tell won’t it.
It’s not a doctor’s theory Amanda. It is someone who is EMPLOYED by the pharmacuetical company that manufactures the pill admitting the pills actions.
It will likely be impossible to prove that the pill is abortifacient scientifically because this would mean that a researcher would have to examine all the vaginal contents from mid-cycle through to menstruation in order to demonstrate the presence of an embryo. There is neither the time nor money to accomplish this.
Secondly there is a reference by a proabort organization (since that SEEMS to be the only source you consider reputable AMANDA):
PREVENTING PREGNANCY,PROTECTING HEALTH: A New Look at Contraceptive Choices in the United State, Susan Harlap, Kathryn Kost and Jacqueline Darroch Forrest, The Alan Guttmacher Institute, 1991, pp. 17-28.
No doubt you’ll find this not up to your rigorous standards too.
I don’t really care a hoot if you take the pill or not. If you want to be a part of a huge experiment that has an unknown affect on your body – you are right – that’s your “choice”. Except you know what, it’s getting tiresome now for all of us who have been working years to give women to correct information on their bodies, to hear women like yourself come whinning back with their tails between their legs saying, “NO one told me so. No said anything to me.”
Just remember you makes the choices and lives with the consequences. So no whinning now or in future. People on this blog have presented you personally with alot of information and you can’t say no one didn’t tellyou.
Patricia,
Are you also opposed to the diaphragm, condoms and/or non-hormonal IUD, since they do not have a hormonal effect on women using them?
Laura,
I guess practicing divorce is easy. You just stay committed to someone, in a loving, happy, supportive, monogamous relationship that makes you both happier than you’ve ever been. How long have you been practicing?
My parents and Michael’s parents have been practicing for divorce for three decades of marriage! My grandparents have been practicing divorce for 50 YEARS of marriage!
Sorry Patricia, but the “it didn’t work for me so it won’t work for you” theory HAS been proven wrong.
Gee, Amanda lives in sin, yet her man is still around.
I live in sin, yet my man is still around.
You got married, and your man is GONE.
How did you “practice for divorce?”
Posted by: Laura at June 6, 2008 11:43 AM
Well Laura, I have never lived in sin, but I did marry a man who came from a family with an alcoholic father and a seriously mentally ill mother (which I did was not aware of at the time). If you know ANYTHING about alcoholics and their families you would know that they are very adept at putting forward a normal facade. I was a very naive and innocent young woman who believed what this man was telling me. Why wouldn’t I? When we got married he turned out to be a very different person. After each brother got married the parents would split and come back together when the next boy brought a girl home. Very nice, it was. He left me. Needless to say, I had no trouble getting my annullment.
Sometimes bad things happen to people who have lived a good life. Unfortunately, I am one of those people. I do not regret remaining a virgin until I was married.
Incidentally, he is in a cohabitating relationship and she doesn’t want to ever marry him (so I am told and so it has come to pass all these years).
And Laura, I’m not counting on my reward in this life. God never promised me it would be easy or that I would be happy but he did promise me he would be there for me at the end. For you, this life is all you have.
Lets wait til the final accounting shall we before we decide who’s made the better choices.
Laura,
I guess practicing divorce is easy. You just stay committed to someone, in a loving, happy, supportive, monogamous relationship that makes you both happier than you’ve ever been. How long have you been practicing?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Our anniversary is on the fourth of July. I honestly can’t remember if it’s our tenth or eleventh.
“There is neither the time nor money to accomplish this.”
The pill has been on the market for more than 30 years Patricia. They’ve had time and money to go the moon and back a few times, build a space station, spend a billion dollars a day on a war, map human DNA, and clone sheep.
You REALLY think they couldn’t have done a study to find embryos in discharge? PUHLEASE.
“it’s getting tiresome now for all of us who have been working years to give women to correct information on their bodies, to hear women like yourself come whinning back with their tails between their legs saying, “NO one told me so. No said anything to me.”
So its “tiresome” to you when people regret something they’ve done and join your side afterwards? Good to know…
You just stay committed to someone, in a loving, happy, supportive, monogamous relationship that makes you both happier than you’ve ever been. How long have you been practicing?
Please don’t use the word monogamous to define your relationship. It is not. Use serial monogamy because that is what your boyfriend is now into.
Amanda:
The pill has been on the market for more than 30 years Patricia. They’ve had time and money to go the moon and back a few times, build a space station, spend a billion dollars a day on a war, map human DNA, and clone sheep.
You REALLY think they couldn’t have done a study to find embryos in discharge? PUHLEASE.
This demonstrates your ignorance of how medical research is conducted Amanda. I don’t have the time to enlighten you. Try to imagine the procedures necessary to do this research. Hint: It involves more than methodology.
It is tiresome when I see women who ought to know better – like you. A smart savvy woman who just can’t get her head around the simplest things and has been conditioned to NEVER think about where something is leading you to.
Our anniversary is on the fourth of July. I honestly can’t remember if it’s our tenth or eleventh.
Posted by: Laura at June 6, 2008 12:15 PM
What anniversary? You haven’t one.
Gee, Patricia-
I should have known that the divorce was all his fault, that you are a blameless, innocent victim, and that your obvious aversion to sex and your obsessive control-freak tendancies had nothing to do with it.
My bad!
Laura,
you really take the cake. You fill me with disgust. Good riddance. I guess the only one you are not allowed to be completely nasty to on this blog is Jill. Too bad. You make this blog suck.
I never stated I was innocent but I certainly did NOTHING to merit him leaving me – both by my friends, his PARENTS and BROTHERS and the church’s view. Try to pull your head out of your A$$ for 2 seconds ok.?
Patricia, anniversaries refer to any annual celebration. She didn’t say a wedding anniversary.
Incidentally, I do find it interesting that the circumstances that led to your divorce centered primarily around you not knowing the man you were marrying. I’m sorry you went through that, but I’m happy that it helped you become the person you are today.
My best friend married two years ago and was a virgin until after her wedding. She lived with her husband for almost a year before the wedding, however, because it made practical and financial sense based on what their lives were like. She said she really appreciated gaining perspective on what living with him was actually like — it cemented her desire to spend the rest of her life with him.
Patricia, correlation does not equal causation. It is very likely that the higher divorce rate for people who live together before marriage has to do with people who refuse to live together before marriage being more likely to be people who do not believe in divorce. People who see no moral objection to living together outside marriage are less likely to object morally to divorce, and thus are more likely to choose divorce should problems arise. That is to say, both the decision not to live together and the lower rate of divorce may be caused by religious or cultural beliefs, rather than the lower rate of divorce being caused by the decision not to live together.
Posted by: Alexandra at June 6, 2008 11:39 AM
I can’t find the post you are referring to (it helps to put the time), but does it matter if it’s cause or correlation?The results are still the same.
Laura,
we’re actually miserable and not monogamous! We just don’t know it yet, but Patricia, being divorced and all, has it ALLLLLL figured out!
WE’LL SEE! *waves finger at you*
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA… oh good Lord.
The bf wants me to stop wasting my time talking to people projecting their bitterness… he has a point, but there are enough people I like talking to on here.
10/11 years is an awfully long time to be living happily together, but don’t worry, the doom and gloom is on its way! My brother is marrying his GF of 8 years next spring. I’ve never seen him happier than since he’s been with her. Meanwhile, half of his friends who got married young and mocked him for waiting so long… are now divorced.
Is there any reason you’re not getting married, or just in no rush?
Laura is an old bag. Her boyfriend will leave her.
I can’t find the post you are referring to (it helps to put the time), but does it matter if it’s cause or correlation?The results are still the same.
Janet, I was referring to Patricia at 11:33am:
All i can say to you is that a strong predictor of divorce is those who live together prior to marriage. Repeated break-ups teach people to be less giving of themselves.
Whatever the reasons for your boyfriend’s relationship demise, nvertheless, he and you are practicing for divorce.
Cause v. correlation absolutely matters. With correlation, if you say to someone who has no moral objection to divorce, “Don’t live together because it’s more likely to cause divorce,” then that person is every bit as likely to eventually divorce should a problem arise as they would have been had they lived together. Because they have no objection to it. Versus my aforementioned friend, who has a moral issue with divorce but did not have a moral issue with pre-marital co-habitation: she is unlikely to divorce unless the situation is really unlivable.
It’s like saying, “Kids who grow up in houses with lots of books are smarter.” Merely being around books does not make kids smarter than they would be otherwise. But having lots of books tends to indicate that the parents are financially able, and willing, to provide educational resources for their children, which in turn tends to indicate that the children are being stimulated and challenged at home in addition to what they receive at school. It would be really incorrect to say, “Buying books makes your kid smart,” because it’s actually more like, “Being the sort of parent to whom books are a valuable investment means your child is more likely to be more stimulated and encouraged to learn than children to whom books are not valuable.” The relationship between owning books and intellectual achievement is a correlation, not causal. That’s a world of difference.
I never stated I was innocent but I certainly did NOTHING to merit him leaving me – both by my friends, his PARENTS and BROTHERS and the church’s view. Try to pull your head out of your A$$ for 2 seconds ok.?
Posted by: Patricia at June 6, 2008 12:28 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gee, in an earlier post you said that his mom gave you a lecture for being a “bad wife,” now you’re claiming that she said you did nothin to merit a divorce.
Interesting…
Alexandra:
Incidentally, I do find it interesting that the circumstances that led to your divorce centered primarily around you not knowing the man you were marrying. I’m sorry you went through that, but I’m happy that it helped you become the person you are today.
I had no clue Alexandra. In fact I’m still finding out things about him today that I didn’t know years ago. Sometimes they happen in the most amazing ways. I think God knows the type of person I am and how scrupulous I was when looking for a husband. I was totally blindsided by this man. And you know what, he is very subtle in how he manipulates people. The therapist that treated him near the very end of our marriage told me he is a classic narcissist. Marriages don’t work with people like this. I’m very glad he’s gone. My life is tons better without him. But he definitely destroyed a really good part of me too.
Thank you Alexandra – you are a breath of fresh air to me!
Laura: you know I just realized what a complete “bag of hammers” you are. Hope you get my meaning …..
Probably already cheating.
Patricia you said,
“Well Laura, I have never lived in sin, but I did marry a man who came from a family with an alcoholic father and a seriously mentally ill mother (which I did was not aware of at the time). ”
Then you said,
“I never stated I was innocent but I certainly did NOTHING to merit him leaving me – both by my friends, his PARENTS and BROTHERS and the church’s view.”
Of course his family and friends didn’t think you did anything wrong, they were mentally ill.
And you weren’t married, you were pretending to be grown-ups playing house. And the kicker is you are probably against gay marriage because you believe marriage between a man and a woman is sacred, but then you run off and get a divorce! What about the vows you took in front of God that said to stay with each other for better or worse?
Incidentally, I do find it interesting that the circumstances that led to your divorce centered primarily around you not knowing the man you were marrying.
Posted by: Alexandra at June 6, 2008 12:30 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Maybe if she had lived with him and got to know him BEFORE making a lifetime comittment and cranking out kids, all this grief could have been avoided,
Patricia,
I know how easy it is to misjudge a person. Often times the most “charming” of men are the ones who turn out to be the most difficult, Jekyl and Hyde type of personalities. I believe it is a psychological thing. (Keep that in mind all you single ladies out there!)
Silly me. How could I forget… I AM married!
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30275463&l=1b7f5&id=195101317
Hahaha… we had a traditional Berber ceremony in Morocco. Thats me all the way on the left with 30 pounds of headgear on. 4 course Moroccan meal, live music, and dancing before the ceremony too! Of course we didn’t understand a word they were saying, but it WAS a wedding!
So do we get to live happily ever after according to your rule book now, Patricia?
Oh Jess:
You don’t even know the circumstances!
His mother is mentally ill and apparently it runs on her side of the family. She’s been in and out of hospital for years – even before I met him. But no one told me and I didn’t know. I love her dearly. She is a sweet and very strong Catholic woman.
No we were civilly married. I was the mature one and was told by the therapist that it was like having 5 kids in the family (he being one of them).
I did not get divorced. As I’ve stated before on this board, my spiritual director told me that I was to let him divorce me. I never signed the papers. I then submitted my evidence to the marriage tribunal and he submitted his. Our witnesses were interviewed and a decision was made. Pastors do not advise people to submit unless there is good cause. Believe me, I had very good cause!
Thanks everyone like Amanda, Jess, Laura and all you other wonderful loving proaborts for being sooo supportive.
And BTW, marriage is between a man and a woman. Don’t you forget it!
Amanda and Jess, Patricia is right.
It’s only a matter of time before our boyfriends dump us and they wind up on a corner with this guy:
http://www.zombietime.com/walk_for_life/IMG_4465.JPG
Patricia,
How can you expect support when all you do is tell them their relationships with the people they love are doomed because they don’t follow the criteria that YOU think makes for a successful relationship?
If you call them out, they’ll call you out, so you better have your helmet on and make sure your slate is clean.
“Thanks everyone like Amanda, Jess, Laura and all you other wonderful loving proaborts for being sooo supportive.”
Oh indeed, because you’ve been SO supportive of our relationships…
And FTR, I’ve done nothing more than point out the fact that your condescending tone about my relationship is pretty hypocritical considering your circumstances. I’ve made no comment about your relationship. Its none of my business. I don’t keep rocks in my glass house.
Janet, maybe it would be easier to just spend some time getting to know a person instead of just jumping into marriage after a month.
My boyfriend and I were talking yesterday and I said, “You can never change a person and if you try you’ll both end up miserable.” My boyfriend said that was the smartest thing that ever came out of my mouth. I said I must be pretty stupid then. Then he said so many people go through years of pain and bad relationships to figure that out, and I just saved myself so much trouble. I agree.
Silly me. How could I forget… I AM married!
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30275463&l=1b7f5&id=195101317
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That is just lovely – I like pageantry (not to mention morrocan food)
Are you tall?
You look tall in that picture.
Alexandra: 12:41:
I think I see what you are saying. IMO, the level of moral objection to divorce before marriage is the biggest predictor of divorce in the future, not living together – although I don’t recommend living together before marriage because there’s a false sense of commitment that can be harmful to each party if it doesn’t work out. There may be a correlation between those who have experienced bad parental relationships (and maybe divorce in their childhood families) and those who feel compelled to live together to “test the waters” so to speak. If that is the case, those people may be more likely to throw in the towel if they are not equally committed, but then maybe not.
As I said, I think a moral objection to divorce gives a marriage the best chance of lasting.
And FTR, I’ve done nothing more than point out the fact that your condescending tone about my relationship is pretty hypocritical considering your circumstances. I’ve made no comment about your relationship. Its none of my business. I don’t keep rocks in my glass house.
Posted by: Amanda at June 6, 2008 1:02 PM
My tone was NEVER condescending. That was your touchiness Amanda. Like I said. Live with your choices honey. I don’t agree with you choices and I don’t agree when you go around promoting them. However, your kind, don’t agree with my choices but you get real upset when we try to promote our world view. A little intolerant I’d say. But, thats normal for you liberals.
If you want to take the pill, have sex before marriage, that is YOUR choice. You don’t want to consider any other POV. You don’t want to consider what you are doing NOW might have repercussions later on.
There are alot of people on this board Amanada with a lot more life experience than you have. Unfortunately, life is agreat teacher.
I’m off this bag’o hammers posting. You guys disgust me. Your way of relating to people on this post proves to me anyhow, that I would NEVER choose your lifestyle choices because of the people it’s made you into.
Janet, maybe it would be easier to just spend some time getting to know a person instead of just jumping into marriage after a month.
My boyfriend and I were talking yesterday and I said, “You can never change a person and if you try you’ll both end up miserable.” My boyfriend said that was the smartest thing that ever came out of my mouth. I said I must be pretty stupid then. Then he said so many people go through years of pain and bad relationships to figure that out, and I just saved myself so much trouble. I agree.
Posted by: Jess at June 6, 2008 1:03 PM
I can’t agree more. And you are very smart to realize that you won’t change a person. If it bothers you before you marry, it’ll bother you more after you’re married. You have to weigh all the pro’s and con’s very carefully, and then when you make a decision, that’s it, you just learn to deal with those little annoyances. If it’s a big enough annoyance, then don’t get married!
My brother once said to me, that choosing a mate for life is one of the most selfish decisions you’ll ever make, because you really have to think about yourself as well as the other person to determine if this is the right person for you.
IMO, you don’t ever want to settle. I’ll say it again, you don’t ever want to settle! ’cause it’s for life!
“And BTW, marriage is between a man and a woman. Don’t you forget it!”
The only criteria for you seems to be they are the opposite sex. I do even think you know what love is. You probably think it’s getting married to someone. Well, that was obviously true love for you. Sad.
“There may be a correlation between those who have experienced bad parental relationships (and maybe divorce in their childhood families) and those who feel compelled to live together to “test the waters” so to speak.”
-Janet
I’m pretty sure there is. I know I’ve read that.
But I think these days, it has a lot more to do with economics. Rent and real estate are exxxxxxpensive. When two people are in love, monogamous, and have every intention of getting married at some point in the future, a lot of times living together is the best way to save up money for your future. Right now, I’m renting an apartment for 650 a month. My bf is renting for 1100 a month. Plus utilities. There’s no way we could afford a house or a wedding unless we lived together first to save up some money.
“You guys disgust me. Your way of relating to people on this post proves to me anyhow, that I would NEVER choose your lifestyle choices because of the people it’s made you into.”
Made us into what? Happy, successful, vibrant people who live life to the fullest? You’re the bitter divorcee.
Excuse me, but I have to go make lunch for my hamster, and I’m going to have a total blast doing it : P
I’m not sure why everything has gotten so personal here, I haven’t read all the posts, but it seems that it’s not very productive and only makes everyone unhappy. Birth control is a very controversial subject. Maybe we can talk about it without getting into each others’ personal lives? Just my humble opinion…
Janet, 1:25 p.m.
Good point, I agree!
“My tone was NEVER condescending. ”
“Live with your choices honey. ”
OH Patricia, you MUST be kidding – if not us, than yourself.
You call me “honey” in the same paragraph you tell me you’re not being condescending?
This of course, being after you tell me my boyfriend is just using me for sex, make all sorts of incorrect assumptions about him, and every time I correct you, you spew out another one. First we were doomed because he was just using me for sex, then we were doomed because he had a girlfriend before me, then we were doomed because we were living together (which we aren’t), then we were doomed because we didn’t get married soon enough to meet your criteria, then we were doomed because we can’t actually be monogamous without being married, then we were “practicing for divorce”.
You made ALLLLLLLL these assumptions and value judgements, without ever having met either of us.
Noooooooo, thats not condescending at all!!! You just know whats best for me better than ANYONE who actually knows me!!
ROFL.
But I think these days, it has a lot more to do with economics. Rent and real estate are exxxxxxpensive. When two people are in love, monogamous, and have every intention of getting married at some point in the future, a lot of times living together is the best way to save up money for your future. Right now, I’m renting an apartment for 650 a month. My bf is renting for 1100 a month. Plus utilities. There’s no way we could afford a house or a wedding unless we lived together first to save up some money.
Posted by: Amanda at June 6, 2008 1:22 PM
I understand about economics, especially these days! I know many people who do this after they are engaged. I still don’t agree with it, especially when it’s not a financial thing, but people will do what they want to, I’m not going to put my two cents in. I tried to live at home after college for a long while to save money for the future. It’s not easy, but my parents were good about it. Sometimes a person such as yourself could find someone else to share the rent (a girlfriend maybe) instead of a boyfriend. I’m not saying you should do that, just an idea. Once you (not you specifically) move in with the bf/gf if you do change your mind, it may be harder to break up if your living space is the same. Just some things to think about….
Elizabeth: 1:31:
That’s two of us! How are you today?
I’m not sure why everything has gotten so personal here, I haven’t read all the posts, but it seems that it’s not very productive and only makes everyone unhappy. Birth control is a very controversial subject. Maybe we can talk about it without getting into each others’ personal lives? Just my humble opinion…
Posted by: Janet at June 6, 2008 1:25 PM
Probably because as usual there was no moderator and probably because as soon as Laura came on things just went downhill.
I’m good Janet. We got our AC fixed yesterday and THAT makes life SO much better here today! I’m planning on making some chocolate chip cookies from scratch and this really great Hawaiian sausage for dinner. I am also giving myself a manicure tonight after I finish up on some laundry. I looooove summer! How are you?
“Probably because as usual there was no moderator and probably because as soon as Laura came on things just went downhill.”
LOL. Yeah, it had absolutely NOTHING to do with you getting personal and telling people their relationships are doomed because of assumptions you made about them. Its ALLLLLLL Laura’s fault. Oh, and the moderators fault too for not being here. And mine too right?
Everyone except you. Got it.
Elizabeth: is it very hot where you live, today?
It is very hot here – about 35C!
Umm…I hate to break this to you, but, Patricia, you STARTED this whole thing in a downhill fashion. You and another person started the first two posts talking about how birth control is making women in relationships who take it be raped by men, or some other such tripe. I find it quite insulting that you would assume a healthy sexual relationship with one’s boyfriend/spouse/partner equates to rape, and women somehow magically have no say whatsoever in what happens in their own bedrooms just because they swallow a pill. Apparently birth control not only kills a baby, but it also affects my brain and mouth, and makes my husband a terrible person who wants nothing out of our relationship but free sex, and only appreciates me for my body.
Patricia,
It IS very hot here! I think we are having some severe thunderstorms coming too.
Janet, I know for sure what you’re saying, especially after living in NYC for 5 years – its just kinda the “cool thing to do”. I certainly know plenty of couples who moved in together WAYYYY too quickly.
But would you agree theres a distinction between people who move in together just because its fun to do, or to “play house” so to speak, versus people who truly have every intention of getting engaged/married, but just not quite yet?
I did move home for 6 months after school, and I would have stayed there if my commute to work wasn’t so awful. Once gas started going up, I was spending more time/money commuting than I am now that I’m renting closer to work. My parents were good about it too though – I was lucky. Helped me pay off my credit card debt from college and save up for the trip to Morocco. Michael moved out here by himself from Minnesota though, so its not really an option for him.
Elizabeth: ah to have a thunderstorm. I love thunderstorms!
None for us though. Just heat and humidity.
Probably because as usual there was no moderator and probably because as soon as Laura came on things just went downhill.
Posted by: Patricia at June 6, 2008 1:38 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Patricia, you are now taking heat from both pro-choicers AND pro-lifers.
What does that tell you?
Jill needs to clean up her blog and take contol of it again!!! It sucks.
Laura, there are MANY prolifers that support contraception. In fact there are many prolife doctors who support the use of contraception.
However, it is my opinion that as long as contraception is widely practiced and accepted, abortion will be similarily practiced and accepted. The two go hand in hand.
I think anonymous is Patricia.
No. It wasn’t.
Thanks jess but I always own up to my anon postings.
I’m not the bitter divorcee everyone makes me out to be! :-D
What does it matter who I am? Just an observation. I am in agreement with Patricia just the same.
“My tone was NEVER condescending. That was your touchiness Amanda. Like I said. Live with your choices honey. I don’t agree with you choices and I don’t agree when you go around promoting them. However, your kind, don’t agree with my choices but you get real upset when we try to promote our world view. A little intolerant I’d say. But, thats normal for you liberals.”
I also find it hilarious that you ASSUME (assuming and being judgemental seem to be two of your favorite passtimes) that everyone who doesn’t agree with you must be one of those dirty liberals. I am a card-carrying member of the REPUBLICAN party. I voted for Bush in the last election, and I make donations to the party yearly.
I also have taken birth control, have my tubes tied now, dated my boyfriend for about a year before we lived together for another year, then had a baby, then a year later got married. We’ve been married for soon to be 5 years now, just had our second child this past January, and couldn’t be any happier together. My parents have been married for 28 years (I’m 27), and I’m the oldest of 6 kids myself. My mom is catholic, but HAS to take bc because she has endometriosis. My husband comes from a rather mixed-up family, but I don’t think that matters, because they’re all HAPPY, unlike you.
Patricia,
2:09 p.m.
It is fine if that is your opinion. We can, however, share opinions without saying anyone else’s relationship is “doomed” or that their partner is just using them for sex. We don’t need to make it personal. This applies to other people making things personal as well. This was an okay debate between MK and Edyt..they discussed their opinions just fine without making anything personal. It’s more productive that way, dontcha think guys?
OHHHH Anon. You sound mysterious. Like the phantom of the opera!!! Do you wear a mask in public! ;-D
Patricia, yes. Sometimes.
Elizabeth:
It is fine if that is your opinion. We can, however, share opinions without saying anyone else’s relationship is “doomed” or that their partner is just using them for sex. We don’t need to make it personal. This applies to other people making things personal as well. This was an okay debate between MK and Edyt..they discussed their opinions just fine without making anything personal. It’s more productive that way, dontcha think guys?
Posted by: Elizabeth at June 6, 2008 2:21 PM
Why on earth would you make this statement in response to my 2:09 post? Good grief Elizabeth I was just remarking about the fact that the two appear to be related. I don’t see ANYTHING in that post about relationships.???????????????
Don’t bother Elizabeth. Whatever is in the water today?
For others: I just read that the UK released abortion stats and there are 1300 women who have had FIVE or more abortions. Abortion as contraception?
Patricia, they are looking to fight with someone. You’re todays target. I’ll turn you on to a few new blogs I have found.
And do you use the BC pill? Do you wonder about all the hormones peed out by the millions of women who do?
Sorry, Patricia, I didn’t see this question until just now.
No, I do not take hormonal birth control.
Arrgh, that was me ^
Patricia, she wasn’t talking about that – she was talking about YOU being the one making this personal…and then trying to flack the blame on everyone except yourself.
As you can see if you looked through this thread, many other people who believe the same as you (Janet, MK, Bobby) were able to have articulate discussions about this without making assumptions and judgements about other people’s love lives. You’re the ONLY one here who felt the need to do that. It was rude, wrong, and to be totally honest, quite silly of you to say horrible things to people and not expect it to bounce back on to you a little.
“…Live with your choices honey. I don’t agree with you choices and I don’t agree when you go around promoting them. However, your kind, don’t agree with my choices but you get real upset when we try to promote our world view. A little intolerant I’d say. But, thats normal for you liberals.”
For your information, I happen to be a card-carrying member of the Republican Party. I voted for Bush in the last election and make yearly donations when I do my taxes. I’m also quite pro-life. And I think you have every right to be a bitter divorcee who never learned to enjoy sex for herself or please her husband, I just don’t like you making harsh accusations about people who take birth control.
I talked to my now-husband for 6 months before we even met. We dated for about a year before we moved in together. We lived together for about 6 months before our daughter was born. We were together for about another year before we decided to get married for logistical reasons. We had our son this January (I had my tubes tied after the birth), and will celebrate our 5th wedding anniversary this November. I took birth control off and on over this time. But, most importantly, we couldn’t be happier together, whether or not I was on the pill, we were having sex, or making babies.
Laura:1:56:Patricia, you are now taking heat from both pro-choicers AND pro-lifers.What does that tell you?
I hope you don’t mean me!
Oh, aren’t we old enough to not need moderators to tell us to be nice?
Elizabeth, I’m good, I’m going to try to beat the thunderstorms and go do errands. Glad your AC is back. It’s going to be a hot next couple of days. 90 degrees this weekend I think. This wind is crazy too! Good time to hit the beach! Centennial Beach would be fun for your little one!
Hey Elizabeth –
I still am dying to know how you feel about that adoption thing!
=)
forgive the semi-double-post. I thought my previous one was lost.
Amanda: 1:52: Janet, I know for sure what you’re saying, especially after living in NYC for 5 years – its just kinda the “cool thing to do”. I certainly know plenty of couples who moved in together WAYYYY too quickly.
But would you agree theres a distinction between people who move in together just because its fun to do, or to “play house” so to speak, versus people who truly have every intention of getting engaged/married, but just not quite yet?
Yes, of course I do. But there’s nothing wrong with a long engagement if you know what I mean. It’s not shameful to have to break one if necessary. (Not that you would!)
I did move home for 6 months after school, and I would have stayed there if my commute to work wasn’t so awful. Once gas started going up, I was spending more time/money commuting than I am now that I’m renting closer to work. My parents were good about it too though – I was lucky. Helped me pay off my credit card debt from college and save up for the trip to Morocco. Michael moved out here by himself from Minnesota though, so its not really an option for him.
I heard of a couple in a similar situation. The bf moved in with the girl’s parents until the wedding because they didn’t want to live together. Isn’t that a riot?
Wow Patricia, I was really just trying to be nice and help us all get back to what the ORIGINAL topic was instead of attacking each other. And then you jump on me for reminding us that getting personal in a mean way does NOTHING for the conversation. Thank you for proving my point.
Janet,
Yes, Centennial Beach would be nice! I’m not a member there but there is another water park in Plainfield that somebody told me about that is a little closer to my house. There’s also Splash Country which is right by Blackberry Farm which was on my list of fun things to do this summer with Gabriella!
Amanda,
Okay! I will get to that right after I fold this laundry real quick!
Oh, and what was said earlier about the grass analogy being false: it isn’t, and it’s actually quite fitting.
Just because it doesn’t suit your argument to view a plant seed as being the produce of a union of male and female cells, it is.
A fertilized egg being prevented from implanting in the uterine wall is just like not planting the seed in the ground, keeping it from coming into contact with soil or sun. The seed contains species/strain/plant information about what that plant will be if the seed is planted, but it’s not a plant until it takes root in that soil.
“…not IS IT ALIVE but WHAT IT IS…”
I know what it is. It’s part of my monthly flow, and it’s something I’ve come to accept. I’m not going to mourn my every period because it COULD’VE contained a fertilized egg, which in the past, it very well might’ve. Did I feel badly when I started menstruating when I actually wanted to concieve with my last child? Yeah, but it was because a baby hadn’t begun yet, not because a prospective baby was sitting there in my tampon.
Let’s all go do something silly:
http://www.bristolmountain.com/content/images/Daycare06-1.jpg
Fun?
FUN!
I don’t know if you guys watch the financial channels, but I think my IRA is evaporating.
I might have to move to a blackberry farm to avoid starving to death in my “golden years.”
“I heard of a couple in a similar situation. The bf moved in with the girl’s parents until the wedding because they didn’t want to live together. Isn’t that a riot?”
HAHAHA thats AWESOME. My parents would probably be okay with that actually. My mom only has the dogs to take care of now – my dad has to travel for work a lot, so something tells me she’d liek the company, and my dad would like knowing someone else was home. Only he and I both work in Boston, and the traffic in the morning from the town my parents are in is just miserable. Otherwise, I’d have stayed at home for a while longer.
First off,
to X,
The discussion was about when life begins vs when pregnancy begins. With grass seed life begins when photowhateverrae said takes place, with human beings it takes place when a sperm and egg meet. Re read all the posts and we can discuss it further.
To Patricia,
I was all set to stick up for ya, say something along the lines that perhaps your way was the best way and that you don’t always have to make choices based on bad and good, but sometimes on better or best, and then you had to go an make that snide comment about the moderators.
I don’t read minds. I spend inordinate amounts of time on here and I do the absolute best that I can. Perhaps some self moderating?
Amanda,
I would agree that the best scenario possible for a man and a woman would be to wait until marriage. But it by no means is the ONLY one that can work. Of course, if you are a person of faith, then as Patricia pointed out, a relationship working here and now might now be your only goal. Temporally speaking, yes, but eternally speaking, you might have a different prize in mind.
But I would hate to see someone following Gods ways out of fear. Or threats. The idea, I believe, is to follow His ways out of love and a desire to please Him. Same with relationships. If you don’t believe in God or His laws and only refrained from sex out of fear, that would be kind of sad. But if you desired the best of all possible advantages, then that would be a much better reason for waiting til marriage.
I didn’t wait. Of course my lifeview was WAY different then. I regret not waiting. But what was, was. And I’ll be celebrating my 27th anniversary this August.
Having lived in this marriage both as a couple of faith, and a couple of idiots, I can tell you that the idiot phase was not so great. However, we have both matured in many ways, faith being only one of them. So I couldn’t prove that our faith is what improved the marriage, but I believe that it is.
To Anonymous:
I’ll start cleaning up the site. The very first thing I’m gonna do is start deleting people who post as anonymous. We have a couple of them now and two of them are rude beyond belief. They do nothing but complain about Jill’s choice of topics, our conversations and now you saying the site sucks. Either pick a name or keep your views to yourself.
Not only is it inconsiderate, but it is very confusing. I find my self frowning every time I see the anonymous moniker because I expect the comment to be nasty, only to find that a sweet anonymous is posting also. And that’s not fair to her.
MK,
I believe the word you’re looking for when talking about the grass/seeds, etc. is photosynthesis. :)
And yayyyy, deleting anonymous monikers! It really confuses me a lot of the time as well.
Yeah.
E,
Yeah, I was referring to this post by Rae…
@MK: It’s water and sunlight that causes seeds to sprout. There are certain chemicals in plant seeds that are phototropic- which causes the seed to sprout and grow *towards* the light. :)
Posted by: Rae at June 5, 2008 11:31 PM
EVERYONE, IN THE FUTURE IS MODERATION IS NEEDED, THAT’S WHAT OUR LINKS ARE FOR…JUST SHOOT OFF AN EMAIL TO ANY ONE OF US AND IT WILL GO TO ALL OF US. WHOEVER IS AVAILABLE WILL GLADLY DEAL WITH THE SITUATION…
Jill, take YOUR site back!! We want Jill!!
anon,
You do realize that if you call yourself bluebeard or Norman you will still remain as anonymous as when you call yourself anonymous…
All using that name does is frustrate people. What is the point of it? Even anonymousPC or anonymousone would help.
Anon,
See there. One anon hates Jill and you want her back…talk about confusing!
let it go! kay?
even via your argument, what is being said on the pro-life side is misleading, and I find that rather off-putting as a pro-lifer myself.
The conception vs. implantation debate is still very much active within the medical community, and there are just as many reputable medical institutions with one view as the other. Under the premise that abortion is the early termination of a pregnancy, it IS a valid argument to assert that pregnancy starts at implantation rather than fertilization, therefore making the claim that “oral contraceptives are an abortificent” false. Many if not most of the works cited refered to books about embryology, and I think that those cannot be considered without bias because they do not consider an entire life cycle as a whole, only a tiny fraction thereof at the soonest possible juncture. An implanted zygote HAS begun growing on its own and building its own PERMANENT BODY STRUCTURE via nurishment from the mother. Anything before this is simply a staging to have the capacity to do so.
I stand by what I’ve said.
MK,
I think the difference is in the intentions. Having sex before marriage just to have sex is one thing. But being in a serious, monogamous relationship for an extended period of time, and having sex before getting married is different. The intent with casual sex is to have a good time. The intent is quite different when you’re with someone, love them, are committed to them, and have every intention of staying true to them to the end. This is why Patricia’s assertion that because we’re not married and I’m on birth control, that means this is just casual sex was EXTREMELY offensive.
I do have faith, and little fear of punishment, because I live my life with the best of intentions. I make mistakes, like we all do, but I do not fear eternal punishment, because the mistakes I’ve made have been with the best of intentions. I think God understands the difference between doing something you think is right, and doing something you know is wrong and not caring. I just think its unfair to throw casual sex and unmarried relationship sex in the same bucket when they are so very different. I mean, if you read what Mike said last night, he WANTS to have kids and a family. A guy just out for casual sex isn’t thinking about the girl he’s sleeping with being a mother.
Elvis has now left the building.
Amanda,
I facebook messaged you my reply to your adoption questions!!
actually, strike that last one. After a little more research, I’ve found that the most widely accepted medical definition of pregnancy is from implantation to birth. it’s funny how I tend to intuitively reason my beliefs in such a way that when I go to actually research it, I find that what I’ve come up with tends to be the way it actually is. Only, they tend to phrase it better than what I have. :(
“From a medical point of view, however, pregnancy does not occur at the moment of conception. It occurs, instead, when an embryo (a fertilized egg that has divided over the course of a few days) attaches itself to the woman’s uterus, a stage known as implantation. It is at implantation that a woman’s hormonal system begins to respond to her embryo, a response that initiates a cascade of dramatic physiological changes in her body. This means that if a sperm fertilizes an egg after a couple has intercourse, but the fertilized egg never implants inside the woman’s uterus, then the woman – from a medical point of view – was never pregnant. Therefore, she can be described as having menstruated, rather than as having experienced a miscarriage or a spontaneous abortion.”
But, it seems that the origin of a great deal of this rather sharp division of ideals among pro-lifers stems from the fact that the Catholic Church hates sex as anything beyond a means of procreation. I wholeheartedly believe this and know from experience, as I was raised in the church from birth until the time I was about 13 or 14, and was still having to get over my brainwashing that “SEX IS EVIL!!!11” up until not that long ago.
Oh turn on Dr. Phil!!!
X,
We don’t care when people define pregnancy. What we care about is whether or not the product of conception is a human being which science says it is. A zygote is a human being. Period, as embryology has shown.
“But, it seems that the origin of a great deal of this rather sharp division of ideals among pro-lifers stems from the fact that the Catholic Church hates sex as anything beyond a means of procreation. I wholeheartedly believe this and know from experience, as I was raised in the church from birth until the time I was about 13 or 14, and was still having to get over my brainwashing that “SEX IS EVIL!!!11″ up until not that long ago.”
X, the Catholic Church does not teach that sex is evil. They are the only ones who teach that sex is holy and should be treated as such. I’m sorry you had such poor catechesis; the spirit of Vatican II era let us all down, including me. My catechesis sucked as well, but when you actually look into church documents like Humanae Vitae, Casti Connubii, and The Truth and Meaning of Human Sex and Sexuality, you will find that those who preached to you that the church hates sex blah blah blah are completely ignorant of church teaching. The church has defended from day one the beauty and sacredness of the conjugal act.
I know that because you were raised Catholic as I was that you think you understand what the Church teaches about sexuality, but this is almost never the case with people who have left the church. It was Bishop Fulton Sheen who said that those who people who leave the Catholic Church will tell you that they know very little about their faith 5 minutes before they convert, and they will say that they are experts in the faith 5 minutes after they convert. I’m not saying you’re ignorant of Catholic teaching, but what I am saying is that you have most likely been exposed to misunderstandings and poor catechesis based on you remarks that the Church considers sex evil. You may have been told that, maybe even by priests. Well, whomever told you that is a bum. They can not point you to official documents that say that the CC thinks sex is evil. I can point you to documents that say how beautiful and holy sex is. The three I mentioned above are a good place to start. Judge for yourself. God love you.
The Pill Kills Babies
Oy….
X,
I don’t know how to say this any more plainly. I’ll try again. NO ONE is arguing that pregnancy begins when a fertilized egg implants. Certainly, I am not.
But we don’t care when pregnancy starts. We care when life starts.
If you read my excerpt you can see that at the moment of fertilization the cells begin dividing in a unique way. They become something “else”…no longer and egg and a sperm, but LIFE.
I stand by what I said.
As to the Catholic comments…why? Why, first, were they necessary at all, and why, second do you believe this? If some PERSON told you this then they are clearly mistaken about what the Catholic Church thinks of sex. There is a difference between what the church’s official teaching on something is, and what it’s members walk away with. Clearly, whoever put the notion that sex is evil into your head, had no real understanding of the church’s teaching.
Anon,
Do you really think it’s fair that you can come on here, dis the moderators, claim that we have hijacked Jill’s site, insinuate that she no longer has control over it, and then decide that you’re done talking about it? That’s not how it works…if you didn’t want to go there, then you shouldn’t have brought it up. If you wanted it to remain private, you could have emailed Jill personally.
I’ll be happy to drop it. As long as you cease insulting those of us who work tirelessly keeping this site going…thank you very much!
Breastfeeding vs. contraception
Following my column, “June 7: The Pill Kills Day,” I received emails expressing similar thoughts from good pro-life friends like this: [B]efore going along with American Life League’s campaign against birth control pills, your blog (and column) should …
Oh also X, it isn’t true that the church teaches that sex is only for procreation. She teaches that the conjugal act is two-fold; that is, it is both unitive and procreative (open to life). Some documents or moral theologians may stress one or the other to get a specific point across, but it is taught that the marital act is two-fold, not just for making babies. God love you.
Laura, 6/6, 12:22p, said: “Gee, Patricia- I should have known that the divorce was all his fault, that you are a blameless, innocent victim, and that your obvious aversion to sex and your obsessive control-freak tendancies had nothing to do with it. My bad!”
Laura, this is your last and final forever banning warning. I told you to knock off personal attacks, and that was just re: me. It was for everyone. If you do this again, you are gone for good. I’ve let you back twice, and won’t let you back again.
The same “anonymous” made several immature comments yesterday, such as:
Jill needs to clean up her blog and take contol of it again!!! It sucks. Posted by: anonymous at June 6, 2008 1:58 PM
Jill, take YOUR site back!! We want Jill!! Posted by: anonymous at June 6, 2008 3:48 PM
“Anonymous” had the same IP address as this poster, who also wrote disparaging and immature comments:
[Speaking to Laura] Shouldn’t a woman pushing 50 be doing something else with her time? Time to stop acting 11. Posted by: heather at June 4, 2008 2:58 PM
[Speaking to Laura] Too bad a few of the pro-lifers became luke warm when it came to you. Instead of focusing on unborn children being murdered in the womb, they chose to enable you to continue your stupid and silly posts. There hasn’t been a single conversion on this site, so don’t believe what you have read. Progress? Not sure. Conversions? NO WAY!..you add nothing here. Why anyone would want you here is beyond me. Way to go to SOME of you “pro-lifers” You are just as bad as this troll!! Posted by: heather at June 4, 2008 3:17 PM
Heather, when you’ve gone over the top in the past, I’ve asked you to chill a couple times, and you have. But you keep losing control. This time in your comments you basically called me a liar for previously highlighting pro-life conversions, you disrespected the moderators, particularly MK, and you disrespected Laura in the same way I have repeatedly asked her to stop disrespecting pro-life commenters and me. I don’t want to ban you permanently but suggest you take a break from commenting for 2 weeks.
Thanks.
Jill, I never called you a liar. I just don’t understand who you think has actually converted here. Who? Please tell me. That’s not lying. You won’t have to worry about me. MK can’t handle it when people disagree with her these days. And Jill, you have also lost control with Laura yourself. I just really don’t feel that pro-lifers are treated right on your blog. Okay. Just my opinion. You guys talk about most everything except abortion. I don’t even want a response. I won’t post here again. I still feel that Laura is here to personally attack people and you’ve just enabled her along with MK and mini-me..{Elizabeth. Good job.
And I KNEW you would check the IP address. MK is turning into a huge control freak. Don’t really care. I just don’t understand why you all jump on someone who is pro-life and you don’t treat them with the same amount of respect that you would a pro-choicer…okay. I’m done.
NOTICE:
I realize that on other blogs posting as anonymous is allowed, even encouraged. But here on Jill’s we are all about conversation. Something that is very difficult when 5 or 6 people are posting under the same moniker.
Jill and I have discussed this, and we have decided that from now on anyone posted as anonymous will be removed.
We are trying to make commenting easier for everyone.
You do not need to put your email in to post. So call yourself Buford, Amos, Clyde or Florence and we still won’t know who you are in the real world. But we WILL know who we are speaking with here on Jill’s site.
Thanks for understanding…
MK
(with Jill’s approval)
Jill and I have discussed this, and we have decided that from now on anyone posted as anonymous will be removed. Or a moniker will be attached for you.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
…with surgical staples.
MK is a “control freak”??
Which is why she is…. nice to everyone?
That makes buckets of sense Heather. Buckets.
Hahaha.. I KNEW you were that Anon. Wasn’t about to say anything without proof, but I had a feeling.
As for conversions though, there was a girl named Samantha, there was PiP, Rae, and my perspective has changed a lot too, though I wouldn’t quite call myself converted. MOST importantly though, the conversations here, which upset you so much, and the FAIRNESS from moderators like MK, has allowed both sides to talk to the other and realize they’re not all the horrible villains the leaders of each side make the other out to be. When you’re no longer thinking in the context of a good guy/bad guy scenario, you can actually HAVE dialogue. You may not think thats important, because you ENJOY being nasty. And don’t try to tell me you don’t. You post over and over again, within seconds of your last post, every time you think you’ve thought of some witty thing to zing someone else. A lot of us, however, respect the importance of conversation, of seeing how much some of us really do have in common despite our feelings on this issue. And that, Heather, is how positive change happens. I’m sorry you don’t feel that way.
Best of luck to you …
Heather,
Another thing that may be hopeful to consider is that we will NEVER know this side of heaven what our efforts here on earth truly accomplish. Who knows if there has been a woman who was pregnant and considering an abortion browsing the internet, stumbling on this site, reading one article or comment or seeing one picture, and changing her mind? If there is just one child whose life has been saved because of this site, then everything is worth it. But we may never know. Maybe someone we know who remains staunchly pro-choice, but learns that there are other options from this site will talk a friend out of an abortion because she has read something here. There’s endless possibilities for ways that this site has saved babies that we never will or even could know.
It’s like prayer. We don’t always see the effects of prayer, but we know through faith that God hears and answerers every single one of our prayers. Who knows this side of heaven the good that our prayers have done for others? Same idea for this site. God love you, Heather.
Amanda, I must respectfully disagree with you. I am calm today. I assure you of that. However, Samantha T. was still PC last time she posted. Yet everyone still maintains that she’s “converted.”??? Rae asked for her story to be taken down, didn’t she? Her posts still look very PC to me. PIP is changing, but isn’t she still voting for Obama? This is why I just cannot agree. I’m off to the beach now. Best of luck to all.
And I KNEW you would check the IP address. MK is turning into a huge control freak. Don’t really care. I just don’t understand why you all jump on someone who is pro-life and you don’t treat them with the same amount of respect that you would a pro-choicer…okay. I’m done.
Pro-choicers (not here, but on other sites) have also jumped on each other. They don’t do it out of hatred or to be mean, but it’s important to keep each other in check.
I mean, if I get harassed by a pro-lifer, I’m less likely to care about their agreements. So it’s up to the more respectable pro-lifers to try to prevent that harassment from happening so that I would be more likely to join their side. Same thing with pro-choicers. If I see a pro-choicer making dumb arguments or harassing people unnecessarily, I’m probably going to say something about it, because misrepresenting an argument is the best way to lose it.
And MK and Elizabeth are very respectful toward pro-lifers. You just can’t get over the fact that they disagree with you.
Bobby, I’ll miss you. Just tying up some loose ends before I go. I’m not doing anymore battle. Thank you for always being kind. It’s appreciated. This is my last post. I’ve said it before, but this is really it. Laura, I’m sure you’re quite happy about that. Actually, best of luck to you. I’m moving on and I won’t be back to look or argue. I will continue to pray for the conversion of souls, and I always remember that only God gets the credit. Take care all. Goodbye:)
Edyt, take care.
so… you can only be pro life is you’re a fundamentalist christian republican who is against gays and birth control and wants to get married and have 5 kids… otherwise you’re just lying? or Jill is?
I’ll have to keep that in mind.
so… you can only be pro life is you’re a fundamentalist christian republican who is against gays and birth control and wants to get married and have 5 kids… otherwise you’re just lying? or Jill is?
I’ll have to keep that in mind.
Posted by: Amanda at June 7, 2008 1:33 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You should have seen the pro-life march in San Francisco.
It was about the widest range of pro-life demographics you can imagine, and I’m sure that the Fundie Christian Republicans were in the minority.
Nellie Gray would have had an aneurysm.
Laura,
…with surgical staples.
Posted by: Laura at June 7, 2008 11:31 AM
Duct tape. Staples would leave a mark…;)
Amanda (and Laura and Edyt),
Pro life is but one faction of the Christian mentality. This is a pro life site, not a Christian site (although I’ll grant you that a lot of us are both).
It is possible to be prolife and pro gay, pro democrat, pro liberal, and yes, even pro birth control. We have pro lifers here that are not anti war (well, not in the way that the anti war crowd would define it…no one is actually pro war…)pro death penalty, pro homosexuality, pro guns…
It’s easy to confuse the two. But the only prerequisite for being pro life that I know of is a desire to end abortion. Once and for all under any and all circumstances.
Other than that, the rest is up for discussion.
Heather herself has some ideas that I would call anti christian (like pro birth control) but I would still call her pro life.
Heather is good people. She just got her feelings hurt, and felt misunderstood. While I disagree with her accusations against me, I don’t hold them against her, as I know they come from pain and not hate.
I wish her the best. I mean that sincerely. She has a beautiful little girl, and I’d be willing to bet her son is adorable as well.
Like the rest of us, she’s just doin’ the best that she can.
Good Luck Heather, remember the door is always open if you have a change of heart.
to all you guys that stood up for me…I LOVE YOU!
Laura,
You should have seen the pro-life march in San Francisco.
It was about the widest range of pro-life demographics you can imagine, and I’m sure that the Fundie Christian Republicans were in the minority.
Nellie Gray would have had an aneurysm.
Posted by: Laura at June 7, 2008 2:09 PM
It’s funny isn’t it? The most divisive issue of our time is also the one that brought some of the strangest bedfellows together…go figure.
I heard once that the only way we’d have peace on earth is if we were attacked by aliens….all of a sudden EVERYONE would be on the same side against a common enemy. Earth against Mars…
Wait, Heather, so I’m MK’s mini-me?
Awesome. There’s nobody else I’d rather try to be like. Other than my mom that is.
It’s really too bad you take things SO personal and can’t deal with people on your own side disagreeing with you about some things. But oh well, if you can’t handle it, you can’t.
I wish you all the best in life.
Sincerely,
Mini-Mk a.k.a. Elizabeth :)
E,
And I can’t think of anyone I’d want more as a mini-me:)
@Heather: I asked to have my story taken down because I realized I did not want the attention. That’s all.
“Jasper –
Please show me where I said a headache was a health issue that warrants an abortion”
Amanda, I wasn’t trying to be mean.
You support the “health” exception for late-term abortion. This covers just about everything, including headaches or an upset stomach.
I see both sides being correct. Heather’s posts are often “hot” but mostly because she has seen many of her pro-life friends offended and leaving the site because of it. Too bad she just can’t discuss them instead of striking out. And Heather is right that nobody who would vote for somebody with baby killing postions as extreme as Obama’s is NOT pro-life, so I would have to agree that such a person would not qualify as “converted”; though they may be able count themselves among those 90% of women who say they are “personally” against abortion. I would think “converted” would mean you see babies in the womb as an equal and worthy of your love and any efforts you can make to protect them.
Heather “Hi52U”
I’ll pray for your strength and perserverence.
The truth is all you need to stay strong.
Laura, you never responded to my post the other day so I will post it again cause I would like to know your answer:
*********
Many responsible women choose abortion rather than pitch a less-than-“desireable” child into that nightmare system…
Posted by: Laura at June 1, 2008 1:07 AM
Laura, that is so sad. They feel so helpless that they actually decide to kill their baby’s before they are even born, “in order to protect them from society”. These mother’s need emotional counseling to help them understand that even “difficult” life is precious. We all go through difficult times in life and it is not acting irresponsibly to presume future difficultys as being a valid reason for killing her baby. Women often kill their newborns after birth for that same type of reasoning. Do you consider them to be responsible also?
Edyt,
We were posting back and forth and then you never asnsered my last question to you so I am reposting it here cause I would really like to better understand your position:
*******
Not to be rude, but calling yourselves the “good guys” doesn’t help out your protest efforts either. Painting everyone else as the “bad guys” makes you sound like children playing a game of cowboys and indians. It’s not that simple. This is not a black and white issue. People are not just good or bad guys, and that sort of simplification is what alienates others and makes them think pro-lifers really don’t see people as people.
Posted by: Edyt at June 1, 2008 12:36 AM
Edyt,
nice guys – people who care for other and willingly sacrifice themselves for the welfare of others. et al. don’t kill baby’s in the womb to make their own lives easie. Simple as that.
Posted by: truthseeker at June 1, 2008 12:50 AM
TS,
Like I said, you can believe whatever you want, but it will hurt your cause. Those people you call the “bad guys” are just going to laugh at the ridiculousness of that statement and not change their minds anyway. Of course, if it really is just spectacle and blaming people, continue on.
Posted by: Edyt at June 1, 2008 12:52 AM
Edyt,
I gave you my definition of “nice guy”. Somebody who sacrifices for the benefit of others
What is you definition? I want to understand how nice guys could kill babies in their mother’s womb.
“I gave you my definition of “nice guy”. Somebody who sacrifices for the benefit of others”
So not the Pope.
Ok sorry I’m leaving this thread now don’t panic have a nice day.
Truthseeker,
Pip hasn’t been on here in a while, so how do you know she’s still voting for Obama? She could have changed her mind..
McCain isn’t totally pro-life but many pro-life people are voting for him so I guess that must make all the rest of us not really “pro-life” according to other’s definitions.
PIP got a boyfriend and took off…
McCain isn’t totally pro-life but many pro-life people are voting for him so I guess that must make all the rest of us not really “pro-life” according to other’s definitions.
Posted by: Elizabeth (Gabriella’s Momma) at June 8, 2008 12:30 PM
All this controversy is why I stay away from discussing politics. Yuck!
Hehe Janet, you are soooo right!
Doug:
You sound a little, well, jealous.
I always knew you had a crush on pip. :)
Ha! True, Elizabeth, among others.
I think back to my college days and wonder where in the hell were the PIPs, the Erins, Midnites, Raes, Jesses, Lyssies, etc.
(Well, part of it was that my college was all-male, although that sounds hard to believe now.)
It is amazing to me to hear some of the well-developed thinking from both pro-lifers and pro-choicers alike, often at such a young age. I didn’t get online and start arguing about abortion until I was 37.
And yeah, when PIP really gets up on her high horse in discussion, it’s something to see.
Doug
P.S. Elizabeth, you are (by far) one of my favorite posters. You have a rare balance, and while it sounds a bit unromantic to say, a mighty good head on your shoulders.
Heather,
You are special. For you and I, we see no gray areas when it comes to slaughtering innocent children. You have moral clarity that I really admire. Let’s keep in touch.
Jasper,
It is true that there is no gray area when it comes to slaughtering children. On that, you and I also agree.
But the disagreement between Heather and I isn’t really about the abortion issue. It’s about how you treat others.
Jasper,
I’m assuming you went to mass today? Did you listen to the gospel. That pretty much summed up what I’ve been trying to say…Jesus never said that what the “sinners” were doing was right. But he did show us that to reach them, we need to sit and break bread with them.
The pharisee’s were all about alienating and finger pointing. Jesus wasn’t interested in proving that He was right. He was interested in reaching peoples’ hearts.
As Jesus passed on from there,
he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the customs post.
He said to him,
Hi MK,
I didn’t read all the stuff up in this thread, I just noticed at the end where Heather said she was leaving.
I do agree that we need to break bread with them MK and be patient. As you know, I admire you very much as well! you have taught me alot.
Cheers from Korea.
Someone just told me that South Korea is AWESOME? Is it? Sounds exotic!
“Someone just told me that South Korea is AWESOME?”
We’ll, it’s quite different. I’m not able to go sight-seeing though, I’ve been working alot….
@Jasper: Does it feel all M*A*S*H-y there? :-p
Heather, Are you there?
Jasper: You are right. Heather is a special person. She is a great friend!!!
Sherman Potter is a god.
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