Woman gets 1 year for illegally signing to abort grandchild
Good for the judge for giving the maximum sentence. Bad that the maximum sentence for illegally giving permission to kill a preborn is only 1 year. From the Atlanta Journal Constitution, today:
A Hall County woman is serving a year in jail for pretending to be a girl’s mother when she signed off on the girl’s abortion.
In reality, Cindi Cook was the mother of the girl’s boyfriend, who also was 16 when she became pregnant in early 2007.
Displeased that the baby would ruin her son’s chance of going to college, Cook, 44, pressured the 16-year-old girl to have the abortion in the spring of 2007, found a clinic that would do it without her present, and paid for the procedure….
Last week, a judge sentenced Cook to a year in jail – the maximum for a misdemeanor – for interfering with custody and violating a parental notification law….
James said his office is now investigating whether the facility – Northside Women’s Clinic in Chamblee – broke a state law that required parental notification when a girl under the age of 18 has an abortion….
According to its Web site, Northside Women’s Clinic offers abortions through the 15th week of pregnancy, usually in about 10 minutes….
The AJ-C is not identifying the girl because she is a minor.
More than a year after the abortion, “she’s still struggling with the loss of the baby,” said Fenn Little, her family’s attorney. “She’s getting better, but there’s going to be a lot of counseling and issues that have to be addressed.”
Through their attorney, the girl’s parents issued this statement: “The actions of both Cindi Cook and the Northside Women’s Clinic have affected our daughter’s life with much pain this past year because of the loss of her baby. It was a sense of helplessness. As for us, they took away our right to be there and help our daughter during a time when she needed us most. The outcome of the trial is a positive step forward in the long healing process that we must go through as individuals and as a family.”
[HT: moderator Bethany; top photo of Cook courtesy of ABC News; bottom photo of Cook courtesy of wsbtv.com]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Devil’s Adovocate Question:
Why is it bad that the maximum sentence is only one year for signing to get an abortion while we claim that we don’t want women who get abortions after abortion is made illegal to have any jail time?
(I don’t know if you are one of those people, Jill. I can’t remember if we’ve discussed that topic. I seem to remember it came up at dinner and Bobby and I stood alone in my heavy-handed punishments for women who abort;)
Have you ever come across that situation, SoMG?
Nathan, if I’m following you correctly, the 16 yr. old is not the one being punished. This punishment is specific to fraud.
Maybe I’ve lost you.
Nathan, carder’s right. The woman getting the sentence was not the abortee.
I like her before and after shots. She doesn’t look so happy now, does she?
I actually agree with Nathan, but that’s yet another tangent to get on, really. I just don’t see how they can punish anyone for something like this if abortion is so helpful and great.
The article was disturbing enough, but the comments?…
Such sensitive individuals. Here’s one:
“Well, if people would quit telling her she ‘killed’ her baby, that would be a good start. The problem here is the religoNazi bible-thumpers have turned a medical procedure into a mental torture process. Bombarded with faked images of aborted fetuses by the religoNazis, is it no wonder that an impressionable 16 you girl is mentally stressed?”
And another sympathizer:
“…it’s a shame this girl knew how to spread her legs, but apparently her parents never mentioned contraception in their house to her. it’s a shame she got pregnant and DIDN’T TRUST HER PARENTS to tell them outright, maybe have the baby adopted. what a shame all around. one mom in prison for helping a child, one child without a parent, and two ignorant breeders and their tart “grieving” over their “loss.”
More compassion:
“The abortion was the right move. It should have been handled differently.”
I am not here to try to absolve Cook of guilt for what she did…clearly it was illegal for her to sign claiming falsely to be a parent, no matter what it was for. However, why didn’t the girl go to her parents and tell them the whole story before she had the abortion? This quote from the parents, “As for us, they took away our right to be there and help our daughter during a time when she needed us most,” seems disingenuous at best. It looks to me like they are scapegoating Cook for their poor relationship with their daughter, who was obviously too afraid to tell them what was afoot.
The article was disturbing enough, but the comments?…
Such sensitive individuals. Here’s one:
“Well, if people would quit telling her she ‘killed’ her baby, that would be a good start. The problem here is the religoNazi bible-thumpers have turned a medical procedure into a mental torture process. Bombarded with faked images of aborted fetuses by the religoNazis, is it no wonder that an impressionable 16 you girl is mentally stressed?”
And another sympathizer:
“…it’s a shame this girl knew how to spread her legs, but apparently her parents never mentioned contraception in their house to her. it’s a shame she got pregnant and DIDN’T TRUST HER PARENTS to tell them outright, maybe have the baby adopted. what a shame all around. one mom in prison for helping a child, one child without a parent, and two ignorant breeders and their tart “grieving” over their “loss.”
More compassion:
“The abortion was the right move. It should have been handled differently.”
Posted by: carder at June 11, 2008 6:27 PM
…………………………
Those comments must have been censored.
I agree with Ray, and the comments quoted by Carder.
these comments are just horrible. I cannot understand how people can be so callous.
these comments are just horrible. I cannot understand how people can be so callous.
Posted by: xalisae at June 11, 2008 7:46 PM
…………………….
Callous how?
Gah. The comments are venomous!!
Hi Sally!
Other fast-breaking news on the abortion front:
Kansas abortion protester loses stink bomb case
Associated Press – June 11, 2008 3:54 PM ET
WICHITA, Kan. (AP) – A judge rules that an abortion opponent was not damaged when a security officer used a “stink bomb” to keep protesters away.
Mark Gietzen, chairman of Kansas Coalition for Life, filed a small-claims lawsuit seeking $4,000 in damages from John Rayburn and his company, Diamond Security.
The security officer used a stink bomb consisting of foul-smelling catfish bait at Dr. George Tiller’s clinic on Sept. 20.
Judge Steven Woodring ruled Tuesday that Gietzen failed to show he suffered any damage.
Gietzen claimed in his lawsuit the incident led to the loss of several volunteers to protest outside the clinic.
Information from: The Wichita Eagle, http://www.kansas.com
For starters, Sally, we’ll go to Commenter #1:
For some women, their abortion is a source of emotional torture,; maybe not for you, but for others it is. It would help if he/she could be sensitive to that.
The faked images…recalling those aborted fetal remains in the dumpster at Hodari’s plant, if that’s faked, I don’t want to see real.
Commenter #2:
The assumption is that the girl’s parents never talked to her about birth control. What source does this commenter have that she wasn’t on birth control? Perhaps she or the boyfriend was and the BC failed, which happens quite often.
I agree that her parents should have been the first ones she should have run to. One has to wonder what kind of relationship she had with them that she couldn’t feel comfortable with that. But then again, she probably wanted to spare them the embarrassment? Who knows?
I would hardly give Cook the benefit of “helping ” her son at the expense of her grandchild.
Commenter #3:
How is he/she to know what would have been the right choice? Pro choice is all about one’s individual decisions.
If there was a transcript of the court proceedings of this case, it could help settle some of these questions.
What a terrible tragedy!
And what a fiend that “mother” is! I use the word mother very loosely.
Ya know, it would be interesting to try unloading a stink bomb outside a PP clinic. Betcha the person would get arrested, thrown in jail without bail, convicted, fined and do jail time.
Ray 6:31PM
Spare me. This is the same song and dance we hear every time where abortion is concerned. If only the parents and the minor had a good relationship. How do you know for a fact they did not?
This young girl sought what she thought would be an easy out to her situation. Its called human nature. If she didn’t have to tell her parents why would she?
Do you think minors want to tell their parents they are in trouble in school or with the law?
Do you question the parent/child relationship if minors do not want to tell their parents?
The person at fault here is the woman who falsely presented herself as the parent. Tell me Ray what your reaction would be if someone was to presume to falsely present themselves as you?
Also Ray, if there are any problems resulting from this abortion who has to handle them? You guessed it, her parents.
Did this woman give any thought to what would have happened if this girl developed complications and her parents were unaware their daughter had an abortion?
Dispense with this claptrap about the “poor relationship”(which you do not know for a fact) with their daughter and their “scapegoating” of Cook. Cook is no victim. Had she falsely presented herself as a parent under any other circumstances you wouldn’t be whining about her being “scapegoated”.
Gah. The comments are venomous!!
Hi Sally!
Posted by: Carla at June 11, 2008 8:15 PM\………………………………………
Hi Carla!
I found the comments to be a parady on typical PL comments.
What do you think Carla? Is it better to be calloused or easily rubbed raw and bleeding?
For starters, Sally, we’ll go to Commenter #1:
For some women, their abortion is a source of emotional torture,; maybe not for you, but for others it is. It would help if he/she could be sensitive to that.
The faked images…recalling those aborted fetal remains in the dumpster at Hodari’s plant, if that’s faked, I don’t want to see real.
Commenter #2:
The assumption is that the girl’s parents never talked to her about birth control. What source does this commenter have that she wasn’t on birth control? Perhaps she or the boyfriend was and the BC failed, which happens quite often.
I agree that her parents should have been the first ones she should have run to. One has to wonder what kind of relationship she had with them that she couldn’t feel comfortable with that. But then again, she probably wanted to spare them the embarrassment? Who knows?
I would hardly give Cook the benefit of “helping ” her son at the expense of her grandchild.
Commenter #3:
How is he/she to know what would have been the right choice? Pro choice is all about one’s individual decisions.
If there was a transcript of the court proceedings of this case, it could help settle some of these questions.
Posted by: carder at June 11, 2008 8:28 PM
……………………………………
Interpersonal relationships are complex and have nothing to do with the fraud perpetuated by a grown woman and a woman deemed too young to make intelligent decisions yet old enough to become a parent. There are some double standards of competency going on here. Or is it a lack of expectations over the compentency of parents?
And yes. I’m sure that the actual facts over the case would put Jill’s latest tempest in a teapot where it belongs.
Ya know, it would be interesting to try unloading a stink bomb outside a PP clinic. Betcha the person would get arrested, thrown in jail without bail, convicted, fined and do jail time.
Posted by: Patricia at June 11, 2008 8:47 PM
……………………..
Try it and let us know.
California voters voted down a “parental notification” referrendum a couple of years ago.
A comprehensive study showed that the vast, Vast, VAST majority of girls under 18 who experienced an unplanned pregnancy went straight to their parents for help.
The study also showed that the small number of girls who didn’t go to their parents had a lot of good reasons not to share that info.
That girl didn’t “lose” a baby.
The clinic didn’t take away the parents’ right to “help their daughter,” their daughter REJECTED them – probably for a lot of good reasons.
Gah. The comments are venomous!!
Hi Sally!
Posted by: Carla at June 11, 2008 8:15 PM\………………………………………
Hi Carla!
I found the comments to be a parady on typical PL comments.
What do you think Carla? Is it better to be calloused or easily rubbed raw and bleeding?
Posted by: Anonymous at June 11, 2008 8:57 PM
…………………..
That would be me.
Laura,
What about minors in trouble with the law? Should police officers first determine the parent/child relationship before notifying the parents? If there’s not a good relationship or a history of abuse should parents not be informed?
What about a minor who damages your property or breaks into your home. Would you see first what kind of relationship the child has with his/her parents before notifying the parents or law enforcement?
Also, if a minor goes home and develops complications after an abortion her parents know nothing about. Will she realize she needs medical help? What about the fact no emergency room or hospital will treat her without parental consent? Do you think this might prevent her from seeking the help she needs, assuming of course she realizes she needs it?
Any girl fearing for her safety can go to any social service agency for help. If she fears for her safety there’s likely a history of abuse and intervention is long overdue. Also, what good does it do to abort the girl and return her to an abusive situation?
Under what other circumstances do we first look at the parent/child relationship before notifying parents concerning a minor child? When I worked the ER that was never a considertion. Parents or legal guardians were called, period.
Mary, to tell you the truth I’m really torn.
Of course I think parents have a right to care for their children.
I also think the girl manipulated everyone without regard to the consequences.
This story reminds me of this story from three weeks ago:
http://www.wftv.com/news/16348047/detail.html
I hate child molesters as much as anybody, but the truth is that the girl in the story I quoted was a rancid little whore, and she and her parents should be in prison – not the two men whose lives she ruined.
Ugh. I see no parody.
NOBODY knows what really happened. Why this girl didn’t tell her parents etc. As it stands there is a very troubled teenager and very concerned parents and a dead child.
A little compassion, please.
‘rancid little whore?’ Wow, that’s a shining example of Christian love for a clearly disturbed 13 year old child if I’ve ever heard/read it. I’ve read many vile comments on this site but that takes the cake – I venture to say Jesus would throw you out of his temple for spewing such harsh judgement on one of his precious little ones this world has so obviously failed.
“And what a fiend that “mother” is! I use the word mother very loosely.”
There is a difference between parents and just breeders.
Laura,
I certainly think the parents of the girl you mention in your link should be in prison and its not hard to see how where their daughter gets her bad example. Its a bitter lesson about having sex with people you’ve met on the internet.
I’m equally disturbed by a “reality” show about a well known family where the pre-teen daughter is dancing in spike heels on her parent’s stripper pole in their bedroom.
The fact is this woman posed illegally as a parent and under what other circumstances would anyone argue this is justified? Also, the girl’s parents are considered responsible enough to handle the consequences of her abortion, but not to be informed or asked for their consent.
Who said that here green?
Jess – Laura 10:02
And to play devil’s advocate re: informed consent… should the teen decide to continue the pregnancy she is considered competent to consent for her own amniocentesis, D&C (if she has a miscarriage), epidural, cerclage, cesarean section and then any procedures her newborn should need – so why does making one choice (continuing the pregnancy) de facto make you able to make competent decisions but wanting to not become a parent means you need to involve your parents/guardians/court?
Gee I’m going for banned with my comments today but, does anyone else feel like hanging this woman up from a tree like a pinata and beating her with a stick till the “candy” come out?
She reminds me of my ex-boyfriends mother. Such and ugly, bitter woman.
Are you sure it was Laura green? You must have misunderstood, Laura is like the sweetest person on this site. She just gets misunderstood.
See green, Laura didn’t mean this girl she meant another girl. A mean one who only wanted to hurt people. Laura just wants everyone to be safe and happy, that’s all she ever wanted.
Are you being sarcastic? Laura is referring to a 13 year old CHILD who was the victim of statutory rape – a 13 year old is a child regardless of whatever disturbed decisions she makes. I can’t believe we would use such vile names when speaking of a child here on this site dedicated to protecting and cherishing all children – born and unborn.
The kids who murdered this little boy were only 11 years old
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulger
We should keep in mind their age, but they should definitely be held accountable.
truthseeker did you read my comment?
Lol, truthseeker and I are going to form a posse.
“onward into the night!”
” a good man leaves a legacy to his children’s children”
That’s it Hisman?
This whole story makes me wonder how many other times this situation has occurred.
Once again another example of how abortion ruins more lives than just that of the aborted CHILD.
It wasn’t abortion Mike it was that ***UMPH*** woman *gag*.
Jess,
Pinata sounds good but I don’t think you’d get anything sweet like candy out of that beast.
The fact is this woman posed illegally as a parent and under what other circumstances would anyone argue this is justified? Also, the girl’s parents are considered responsible enough to handle the consequences of her abortion, but not to be informed or asked for their consent.
Posted by: Mary at June 11, 2008 10:22 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I’m just suspicious because I got caught up in a similar situation.
The parents of the girl who had the abortion sort of gave it away with their language.
I’m sure that the boyfriend’s mother stuck her neck out and risked committing a felony because she believed the girl was in danger from her violent, psycho parents.
Later, when the girl became angry at her boyfriend – as all teenage girls do at 15 min. intervals – she suddenly remembered that her parents weren’t violent and psychotic after all, and told them all about the evil deed her boyfriend and his mother forced her to commit at gunpoint.
Re-read the quote from her parents.
She out-slicked them on a fairly serious matter, rejected their confidence and judgment, then turns around and plays the part of their poor, wounded baby. AND THEY BOUGHT IT!
I’m sorry, but I had a sister, a good friend, and coworker’s child who were just GENIUS at this sort of manipulative drama. They were The Divas of playing both sides against the middle and didn’t care who they destroyed. (Sort of like the 13-year-old internet attention whore…)
Hello green and welcome.
Please stick around. I am a prolife Mom who had an abortion and now regrets it.
There are many on this site that speak with much pain and hatred. Their comments shame themselves.
Carder, no, in my state there is no parental consent requirement for abortion. (If there were one, I’m not sure I would obey it. Certainly I would help the patients get around it in any legal way.)
My personal opinion is, if the state requires parental consent for a minor girl to have an abortion, then it should also require parental consent for a minor girl to have a baby. Any parent who can FORBID his daughter’s abortion should also be able to FORCE his daughter to have an abortion. Because after all it requires greater maturity to be a mother than it does to choose abortion.
On another topic, Mark Gietzen is a well-known filer of frivolous and pointless lawsuits. So much so that if I were a Kansas judge I would be tempted to adopt a policy of dismissing all his lawsuits without bothering to read them.
Patricia, you wrote: “Ya know, it would be interesting to try unloading a stink bomb outside a PP clinic. Betcha the person would get arrested, thrown in jail without bail, convicted, fined and do jail time.”
This would be a federal crime–a violation of the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Law. See http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/split/facestat.htm
Similarly, it would be a federal crime to set off a stink bomb in front of a church. The FACE Law also protects institutions of religious worship.
If parents are allowed to force the abortion, then wouldn’t that blow the whole pro-choice platform of “choice”?
I’ve heard it said that the decision to abort is between a woman and her doctor. Obama went so far as to include her pastor in that triangle. But in your experience, do you get to counsel the woman/girl before beginning the procedure? Isn’t that the counselor’s job? Or maybe I’m misunderstanding the phrase “between a woman and her doctor”.
Do you get to meet the patient prior to them laying on the table?
If the girl that you would hypothetically help to get around parental consent laws experiences complications due to the abortion what would be your plan of action then?
Yes, Carder, I am against parental consent requirements either way. I’m just saying IF you support a parental consent requirement for abortion, then logically you should also support a parental consent requirement for having a baby, because motherhood requires greater maturity than abortion and has much greater consequences for the patient (and her parents). Any patient who cannot handle the decision to have an abortion herself CERTAINLY cannot handle motherhood.
Parental NOTIFICATION is a different question from parental consent requriements. I think I could probably be persuaded to support parental notification requirements provided they could be overridden by judges in special cases.
To answer your other question, my patients undergo pre-abortion counselling with a trained volunteer and I also talk with them for about five minutes before the procedure. And yes, I do ask every patient whether anyone is trying to force her to have an abortion. And I advise pregnant minors to discuss their pregnancies with their parents unless they believe that doing so would incur danger of being physically harmed by the parents. Also, I ask every patient what birth control she was using when she conceived, and anyone who says “none” gets birth-control counselling afterwards.
I’d like some proof that this girl was pressured into an abortion. Because, frankly, I am not sure if I buy it.
Carder, you wrote: “If the girl that you would hypothetically help to get around parental consent laws experiences complications due to the abortion what would be your plan of action then?”
My plan would be: treat the complications.
Patients get written instructions (usually verbal also) on how to recognize complications and what to do (call my office or go to the ER if necessary).
In my experience, when a minor says someone is pressuring her to have an abortion, it’s almost always her parents who are pressuring her.
Treat the complication, of course. Who foots the bill if the parents aren’t aware of the pregnancy situation to begin with?
Is it the minor’s responsibility at that point, too?
Carder, the parents are responsible for their dependent children’s medical bills, unless the minor chooses to pay them herself.
Laura, 1:30am
The girl was in danger from violent psycho parents? Then I’m sure you would agree that the boyfriend’s mother should have gotten her to the nearest social service agency and the girl into a protective foster home, not enabled her to abort and send her back home to her violent psycho parents.
The article states this boyfriend’s mother was clearly looking out for her own interests and that of her son. Stop trying to make her into a heroine. This was a clear violation of the law and if someone had posed as me concerning my minor child, I would have gone after her with every legal weapon there is.
Where is there ANY evidence these were violent psycho parents?
She outslicked her parents and conned them? Uh Laura, not exactly uncommon for teenagers. We parents prefer believe and trust our children and unfortunately can be conned in the process.
SOMG 9:03am and 9:47am
What planet do you reside on? In the real world if the girl shows up in the ER parents must be notified and their consent obtained. We could treat without consent in the event of a life threatening emergency, but someone was on the phone trying to locate parents or guardians.
These girls cannot be treated in the ER or surgically without parental consent, no matter who pays.
I have seen this situation and the OB was required to tell the parents about the abortion their minor daughter had after she had surgery to correct a complication.
I’ve seen grown women frightened and in denial over complications from abortion until they became serious. You expect better from a minor girl, especially if they can’t be treated without parental consent?
I often wonder when I hear that abortion is between a woman, her doctor and her pastor WHAT IF a woman has neither?? Are they talking about an abortionist like SoMG who gives them a 5 min. talk?(more than I got) No pastor? No doctor? What say ye, Barack Hussein Obama?
I’d like some proof that this girl was pressured into an abortion. Because, frankly, I am not sure if I buy it.
Posted by: Erin at June 12, 2008 8:56 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don’t either.
$100.00 says she manipulated her boyfriend’s mom into helping her, then turned around and sold her out to her own parents.
Check out the language of the abortion patient’s parents. They don’t even realize they got lied to and screwed over by their poor little “victim.”
Mary, you wrote: “What planet do you reside on?…These girls cannot be treated in the ER … without parental consent, no matter who pays.”
Actually, an EMANCIPATED minor can legally be treated anywhere without her parents’ consent. Typical conditions which cause a minor to be considered emancipated include: living away from the parents, having a job (being self-supporting) and in some states PREGNANCY all by itself is considered an emancipating circumstance. In those states (Pennsylvania was one when I was there), every abortion patient is emancipated by virtue of her pregnancy.
Carla, a doctor who does an abortion on you is YOUR doctor. Just as a surgeon who operates on you is YOUR surgeon.
In any case, complications from abortion requiring ER visits are rare in North America. One study of 170,000 cases reported seven hospitalizations per ten-thousand first trimester abortions.
Hakim-Elahi E, Tovell HM, Burnhill MS. Complications of first-trimester abortion: a report of 170,000 cases. Obstet Gynecol. 76:129-35.
Ok SoMG. Scary thought as my abortion was horrifying and the “doctor” did not even look me in the eye, nor talk to me. So much for that.
Dear SoMG,
I need to apologize and ask for your forgiveness for something. I have projected my abortion experience on you for long enough. I am sorry I said once that you gave me the creeps. I picture “the doctor” as you. I know that you have aligned yourself with evil and made a covenant with death. I am praying you out of the biz. I consider myself a prayer warrior and please know that if it ever gets too much for you, there are many groups that would be more than happy to help you.
Please accept my apology. I am sincere.
Awwww, Carla, that’s sweet.
Just out of curiosity, when was your abortion? And where?
Surgeons, and procedure-specialists generally (as opposed to primary-care docs) are often short and non-communicative with patients. In most cases it’s because they are overworked. Some of them think “schmoozing with patients” is the primary-care doc’s job, not theirs. I was once operated on by a surgeon like this. I strongly disliked him personally because he interrupted my questions with monosyllable answers, but he did my operation without complications, which was the main thing I wanted from him. I’d rather be cared for by a technical master than by a nice person.
1990 Meadowbrook Clinic, Minneapolis, MN
This story is disgusting and sad on so many levels. I can’t even read it. I skimmed the comments.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
SoMG,
I am praying for you too.
I’m not sure I could be as forgiving as Carla, if I were in her situation.
SOMG, 10:55am
Emancipated yes, but what of minors who are not?
What about those in states where pregnancy does not mean emancipation? If she’s no longer pregnant and ia suffering abortion complications is she still emanicpated?
11:02am
Visits to ER after abortions are rare? I’ve seen plenty. I’ve seen a couple of ladies go to surgery, one with a 102 temperature. The thing is the woman was treated and discharged. We didn’t report to anyone in particular that it was abortion related and as far as I know patient records are strictly confidential.
So we know why every person in the country visits the ER?
Mary, that’s a good point. I think I will start warning minor patients that in the unlikely event of their having to go to the ER, their parents may be notified of the abortion.
To answer your question, in Pennsylvania when I was there, current pregnancy AND PAST PREGNANCY were both considered emancipating circumstances.
I must say your posts taken together are a bit confusing. First you wrote: “In the real world if the girl shows up in the ER parents must be notified and their consent obtained. …These girls cannot be treated in the ER or surgically without parental consent, no matter who pays.
I have seen this situation and the OB was required to tell the parents about the abortion their minor daughter had after she had surgery to correct a complication.”
But then you also wrote: “We didn’t report to anyone in particular that [an ER visit] was abortion related and as far as I know patient records are strictly confidential.”
So which is it–are the patients’ records “strictly confidential”, or are OBs “required to tell the parents about the abortion their minor daughter had after she had surgery to correct a complication”? These two posts cannot both be true.
So Mary, if a woman comes in with an abortion complication, it’s possible that the clinic that performed the abortion would not know that a complication had ensued by virtue of the fact that records are confidential?
How, then, will the clininc be able to correctly assess their “success rate”?
“the parents are responsible for their dependent children’s medical bills”
If you were a parent, SoMG, wouldn’t you be a bit bothered that you had no legal rights as far as the abortion decision was concerned, but still held responsible for the rare complications that could occur?
Doens’t sound fair to me.
SoMG,
Remember that article Jivin J posted about the British mom who was still pregnant after having had an abortion? How could that have occured? The article doesn’t explain how the medical personnel messed up.
I’m guessing it was twins and only one of them was sucked out.
Carder, no I don’t remember that story. There are several ways something like that could happen, and twins is one possible explanation.
How recently did this occur? Was there ultrasound at the time? (Of course, ultrasound is not perfect, especially early in pregnancy when most abortions are done.)
SOMG,
Both posts are true and I can’t understand what you find so confusing.
If a minor shows up for any reason, abortion complications or other, we are required to get parental consent to treat them and to accurately inform parents or legal guardians of our findings. I cannot care for a minor child in surgey without parental consent and discussing my plan of care for their child. They will know exactly what the problem is and what course of action to take.
The OB was required to tell the parents what type surgery their minor daughter had and why she had it. This protects him legally in the event of any complications or legal action that may follow.
The lady I told you about with the 102 fever was a legal adult and her mother was with her. We said NOTHING to her mother about her abortion, why she had surgery or what was found. She could tell her mother what she wanted.
Yes patient records are confidential, but when treating a minor in the ER or surgery, parents must be accurately informed. It covered us legally and ethically. How can parents know how best to care for a child afterward or make the best treatment decisions if we’re not accurately informing them? The parents will need to observe for possible complications upon discharge as well as be responsible for follow up care.
We don’t consider a 14 year old who has just had a mole removed legally competenet to follow up on his/her own care, much less one who has just had surgery.
By the way SOMG, I had to sign a pile of forms and present ID before my teenage daughter could get her ears pierced! The state didn’t deem her competent enough to make that decision for herself or to follow up on her own care. They gave ME the follow up instructions and made me sign for them.
Here’s the story:
https://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2008/06/until_obama_can.html#comments
Oops, that Anon above is me. Carder, you wrote: “If you were a parent, SoMG, wouldn’t you be a bit bothered that you had no legal rights as far as the abortion decision was concerned, but still held responsible for the rare complications that could occur? Doens’t sound fair to me.”
Given that the parent has no legal right to FORCE abortion on his/her daughter, it’s equally unfair that the parent has to pay for labor-and-delivery care for her. That’s life in the USA–kids do what they do and parents have to clean up the mess. If you don’t accept this, you shouldn’t have kids.
When you consider how much more expensive and complication-prone childbirth is than abortion, statistically the parent benefits from the daughter’s decision to abort. Perhaps it’s unrealistic to expect a parent to appreciate this while his/her daughter is suffering from rare/severe abortion complications, but afterwards when/if he/she starts to think about the question logically, he/she will. In the USA most UNCOMPLICATED childbirths are still much more expensive than most COMPLICATED abortions (the very large majority of complications from abortion are treated outside the hospital.)
Carder 12:37PM
Excellent point and true. The clinics won’t treat the women, the local doctor’s office or hospital will. As far as the clinic knows, the woman walked off into the sunset happily ever after. Even if they do treat the woman, I know of no requirements to report the complications or keep a record of them. They’re certainly not going to advertise a high complication rate.
About that woman with the 102 temp, the surgeon did call the abortionist after her surgery, thinking it might, just might, be a concern to him. Especially since this was the second one of his patients the surgeon and his partner had treated for complications.
The surgeon returned to the OR infuriated. The complete indifference of the abortionist and his argument that the surgeon and his partner were “you pro-life doctors” sent him into a rage. The surgeon reminded him that an injured woman, not anyone’s politics, was the only issue here and he thought the abortionist would at very least give a damn. Apparently not.
Carder 12:41PM
Isn’t it interesting that parents are considered competent to pay medical bills and care for a daughter suffering complications, but not to be part of the abortion decision?
Mary, I agree, there is an inconsistancy in the fact that you have to sign for your daughter to get her ears pierced but she can subject her body to the danger and trauma of giving birth without your permission. It’s fundamentally inconsistant that you can force her to avoid piercing but not to avoid labor and delivery by having an abortion, which is many times safer for her, and many times less expensive for you (that is, safer and less expensive than giving birth, not safer and less expensive than getting her ears pierced.)
For the sake of consistancy, we should either allow her to get her ears pierced without your consent OR give you the right to force her to have an abortion. (Guess which alternative I favor.)
SOMG,
I don’t believe abortion is safer, from what I’ve seen complications go unreported. Labor and delivery isn’t the horror you portray it to be SOMG. I see teenage girls and grown women go through it all the time with no problem.
By the way SOMG, if you think abortion does anything to stop these girls from becoming pregnant and giving birth, think again. I’ve seen many teens who have had multiple pregnancies and births, after having abortions.
One really stands out in my mind. She was having a D&C for a miscarriage, 6 weeks after having an abortion. She sure didn’t waste time becoming pregnant again.
“…after all it requires greater maturity to be a mother than it does to choose abortion”
If I were a prochoice feminist, I’d be insulted by that statement. I would interpret that to mean that the women who have abortions are immature.
I know of a doctoral candidate who chose abortion. She wouldn’t take the label “immature” very lightly.
Did you enter medicine wih the intention of performing abortions for a living, or was it just a series of events that led you there?
If I were a prochoice feminist, I’d be insulted by that statement. I would interpret that to mean that the women who have abortions are immature.
AS a pro-choice feminist, I didn’t interpret it like that at all. I’d interpret it to mean exactly what he meant – raising a child requires more maturity than aborting one does. I mean, it’s like saying raising a puppy requires more maturity than raising a goldfish.
It’s not saying people who raise goldfish are immature at all. It’s just saying that one is more work than the other.
SoMG: “…after all it requires greater maturity to be a mother than it does to choose abortion”
Carder: If I were a prochoice feminist, I’d be insulted by that statement. I would interpret that to mean that the women who have abortions are immature.
Yeah, it could be taken that way.
Of course, many people who are not mature enough to be good parents choose abortion, and there’s nothing necessarily wrong for them in doing so.
Not being mature enough to be a good parent doesn’t mean one couldn’t make the right choice for oneself as far as continuing or ending a pregnancy.
SoMG: “…after all it requires greater maturity to be a mother than it does to choose abortion”
Carder: If I were a prochoice feminist, I’d be insulted by that statement. I would interpret that to mean that the women who have abortions are immature.
Carder, maybe you’d interpret it that way if you were a STUPID pro-choice feminist.
Carder, yes, abortion, particularly medical abortion, was one of my reasons for applying to med school. I said so in my application essay (Statement of Purpose).
I was also interested in drug-development.
Mary, you wrote: “I don’t believe abortion is safer [than childbirth],”
It’s a matter of record. Go to the source the doctors read: Annals of Internal Medicine. There is no serious dispute about this in the medical community, world-wide AND in the USA.
http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/140/8/620
You wrote: “…from what I’ve seen complications go unreported. ”
Not any more. During the 1970s, yes, some did.
You wrote:”Labor and delivery isn’t the horror you portray it to be SOMG. I see teenage girls and grown women go through it all the time with no problem.”
I don’t portray L&D as a “horror”. I portray it as a substantial medical/surgical trauma, approximately eleven times more painful, dangerous, expensive, and life-changing than early abortion. Which it is.
You wrote: “I’ve seen many teens who have had multiple pregnancies and births, after having abortions.”
Without the abortions, they’d have EVEN MORE pregnancies and births.
You wrote:”One really stands out in my mind. She was having a D&C for a miscarriage, 6 weeks after having an abortion. She sure didn’t waste time becoming pregnant again.”
You know what epidemiologists say about people who reason from one case. (They say: “You fail your prelim!”)
But I agree that some women abuse their abortion rights. The woman at Yale who made that disgusting art exhibit from her vaginal efflux (if she really did that–I don’t remember how the story ended) for instance.
Drug-development. Hence, RU486 studies.
I suppose no one questioned your motives for applying to that particular med school.
No, Carder, I had nothing to do with the entrance of RU486 into the USA. Methotrexate I had a little bit to do with, and as I have explained several times, it’s still my choice for medical abortion.
I need a little run down:
Medical abortion is non-surgical abortion.
Surgical abortion is what?
Carder, surgical abortion is using tools to draw the pregnancy tissue (preborn, placenta, and uterine lining) out of the patient’s uterus. (The favorite tool today is a plastic tube attached to a 50cc syringe. We call it “surgical” even though it has no sharp edges.)
SOMG,
I was not making a judgement based on “1” case, but rather what I have seen more times than I can count over many years.
Without abortion there would be more pregnancies and births? No SOMG, they just don’t bother with birth control or care if they become pregnant. Or else they have a desire to become pregnant. I have no idea the psychology behind it but these girls will have abortions then want to have babies. One could just as logically argue that abortion causes the desire to have a child, or more likely it does nothing to address the underlying psychological issues the teen may have. If she’s had a baby at 17 instead of 15 when she aborted, you’ve hardly done anything to prevent a birth.
Labor and delivery are far more life altering? What happens in life that isn’t? A car accident, a death of a loved one, and yes an early abortion.
With few exceptions studies on surgical abortion death rates come from University hospitals, not free standing clinics, where you have top notch surgeons and surgical procedures and follow up reporting. They accurately reflect university stats but are less than 5% of abortions performed.
90% are performed in free standing clinics where care doesn’t remotely compare to the university setting.
There are no accurate scientific studies on the safety of abortion in these free standing clinics.
Are all states, including California which for a long time did not, now required to report abortion stats and complications?
Is your clinic required to report stats?
Mary, you wrote: “There are no accurate scientific studies on the safety of abortion in these free standing clinics.”
Yes there are. CDC collects these data now and publishes them in the Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report (MMWR).
You wrote: “Are all states, including California which for a long time did not, now required to report abortion stats and complications?”
You know, I don’t know which states currently do not report to the CDC but I do know it is a small minority of states, whose numbers would not make a very big difference to the final result even IF they turned out to be different from national averages based on states which DO report, which there’s no reason to believe they would. I guess you could argue that poor states might have a higher complication rate, or that states with older populations would have higher complication rates. On the other hand, these states would also have higher rates of complications from childbirth.
You go with the data you have.
You wrote: “If she’s had a baby at 17 instead of 15 when she aborted, you’ve hardly done anything to prevent a birth.”
On the other hand, maybe she would have had a baby at 15 and ANOTHER one at 17 if not for her abortion. One can only speculate. Most likely the truth is somewhere in between–abortion prevents SOME births but not others.
Carder, yes, we do.
SOMG,
Or maybe she was having the baby at 17 that she would have had at 15.
So you acknowledge that all states do not report. How interesting. For a long time some states, including California, did not report at all. If we don’t get accurate reporting for an extended period of time form ALL states, especially one as large and populous as California, then we can’t really call these accurate statistics, can we?
I didn’t say collecting data SOMG, I said scientific studies, such as were done with the University patients. The CDC finally got around to collecting this data? When did it finally start doing this? So maybe CDC claims of low abortion mortality haven’t been all that accurate either.
Also how accurate is this data if hospitals and doctor’s offices treat the patients from the clinics and the clinics themselves do little or no follow-up?
I gave an example in my previous post of the abortionist who couldn’t have cared less about a second patient of his being treated by one of our doctors for complications. Do you think he’s going to make it a point to notify the CDC?
He wouldn’t have even known had our surgeon not called him.
Mary, you wrote: “Or maybe she was having the baby at 17 that she would have had at 15.”
As I said, we cannot tell, we can only speculate. The truth is most likely somewhere in the middle–abortion prevents teen motherhood in SOME cases but not others.
You wrote: “If we don’t get accurate reporting for an extended period of time form ALL states, especially one as large and populous as California, then we can’t really call these accurate statistics, can we? ”
Yes, of course we can. Limited, perhaps, but not inaccurate.
Here’s a good exercise for you: look up the female reproductive-age population of California and of the USA and calculate how different from the national average the California complication rate would have to be in order to make a significant difference in the number computed for the nation if California were included. (Hint: the female reproductive-age population of the rest of the USA is so much larger than the female reproductive-age population of California that the complication rate in California would have to be VERY different from the national rate–many times higher or lower– in order for leaving California out or putting it in to change the national result significantly. Can you think of any reason why the complication rate of abortion in California would be so different from everywhere else in the USA? I can’t, and I used to live there. (If I had to guess, I’d guess that California probably has a slightly LOWER complication rate than the rest of the country because California attracts the cream of every technical profession, including abortion, so the providers there ought to be more skilled. On the other hand I suppose you could argue that California has a lot of poor Mexican immigrants who would experience higher complication rates because of their poverty and the language barrier. In either case, the effect on the national complication rate would be small because as I said before California’s female reproductive-age population is small compared to that of the rest of the USA.)
You wrote: “Also how accurate is this data if hospitals and doctor’s offices treat the patients from the clinics and the clinics themselves do little or no follow-up?”
That’s an interesting argument but your hypothesis is wrong: the very large majority of abortion complications in the USA are treated by the doctor who did the abortion (or one of his/her partners). The number treated in hospitals is a very tiny fraction (seven hospitalizations per ten-thousand abortions according to the study I posted earlier). The reason there’s so little follow-up generally is that it is not required because complications are so rare.
You wrote: “I gave an example in my previous post of the abortionist who couldn’t have cared less about a second patient of his being treated by one of our doctors for complications. Do you think he’s going to make it a point to notify the CDC?”
You know what epidemiologists say to people who generalize from a population consisting of one person. If they’re like me, they say, “What are you, stupid?” Most professors of epidemiology are more polite than I am, but they’d still flunk you if you tried it during your orals.
————————-Comment deleted 7:34pm
SOMG,
I gave him as an example, I did not generalize.
In other words, abortion does not prevent teen motherhood, sometimes it only postpones it.
California attracts the cream of every technical profession, including abortion.
Here’s a good exercise for you SOMG. Its called research.
By “cream” do you mean:
The Bugarin sisters, Bertha and Raquel, long associated with the abortion chain “Clinica Medica Para La Mujer De Hoy” who were charged with 18 and 4 counts of practicing medicine without a license? The sisters owned these clinics and operated them in partnerships with:
Abortionist Nicholas Braemer, who lost his medical license in 2000.
In addition to Braemer, abortionists Mohammed Dia, Phillip Rand, and Laurence Reich, a convicted sex offender, also lost their medical licenses.
An unlicensed man, Steven Turnipseed, who did abortions for Bugarin under the name of Dr.Steve, disappeared after being reported to the Medical Board for practicing without a license.
Other abortionists associated with this chain have been disciplined and six clinics closed.
Bruce Stier, who was convicted of involuntary manslaughter in the death of a young mother who bled out after a botched abortion in his Moreno Valley, Calif. clinic which has since closed.
The deaths of 12 women in a chain of clinics owned by Edward Allred, who has spewed some of the most vile racism against blacks and Hispanics.
What you would call “cream” SOMG I would call the bottom of the toilet.
Until we get actual statistics on complications, which are not being reported, all we can do is speculate and make assumptions which you obviously did concerning the “cream” of the abortion profession.
By doctors who did the abortion do you mean private doctors or abortion clinic doctors? Certainly if a woman who had an abortion had it done by her private doctor she would follow up with him/her or a partner.
By hospitalization do you mean women who were treated and released on an outpatient basis or women who actually had to be admitted as inpatients? Also, since some states don’t report complications, just how accurate are these stats?
Mary, lists of bad examples do not impress me or prove anything. (You should already know that–you are involved in a health-care field and you don’t SEEM stupid like Heather, who also posts lists of bad providers copied from other right-to-life sites, but appears to be so poorly-educated and impervious to instruction that she can’t be expected to know better.) Especially YOUR list is unimpressive because most or all of the people on it are no longer in practice (I’m not sure about Allred). If anything, your list suggests that California is doing a good job of policing its abortion providers and getting rid of bad ones.
You wrote: “I gave him as an example, I did not generalize.”
The generalization–that abortion docs are underreporting complications to the CDC–was implied.
You wrote: “In other words, abortion does not prevent teen motherhood, …”
Wrong. Sometimes it does.
You wrote: “….sometimes it only postpones it.”
Right, but only sometimes.
You wrote: “Until we get actual statistics on complications, which are not being reported [in California and one or two other states which I cannot remember], all we can do is speculate and make assumptions which you obviously did concerning the “cream” of the abortion profession.”
I told you, that was just the guess I would make if I were forced to make a guess, if someone held a gun to my head and said “make a guess or I’ll shoot you”–that complication rates ought to be slightly lower in California than elsewhere because Californian abortion docs, like Californians in general, have better technical skills than people in other states. I did not mean to present my guess as fact. You’re right, it could be wrong. When hard data are unavailable, you make the best estimates you can with the fewest and weakest assumptions you can get away with. That’s ok as long as you don’t pretend to be doing anything else.
For my part I am quite comfortable making the assumption that the complication rate from abortion in California is probably not very different from the rate in the rest of the USA. This assumption could turn out to be wrong, but I’d be surprised, partly because I cannot think of any reason WHY it would be wrong. What special quality is there about California that would cause the complication rate from abortion to be different there from in other states? Progressive politics? How would that affect the abortion complication rate? An exceptionally high number of Nobel laureates? Again, it’s hard to see how that would affect the abortion complication rate. Being a preferred destination for gay people? Again, same objection, has nothing to do with likely complication rates per abortion. Maybe the high number of poor Mexican immigrants would have an effect, but not a very big one–the number is larger than in other states but considered relative to the total population of California it’s not all that large. Also, California does a better job of providing medical care to indigent patients generally than most states (Vermont is an exception). Here’s a possible idea: a higher incidence of exotic or new illnesses, chronic illness or exotic infections which maybe the patient isn’t aware she has, maybe that sort of thing occurs more often in California because people go there from everywhere in the world and bring their infectious diseases with them, maybe it increases the complication rates per abortion, you find out later that your patient had some new form of TB or something horrible like that when you did the abortion. Of course, this hypothesis would make EVERYTHING more dangerous in California including childbirth, and the complications could just as well be blamed on the mystery-disease as on the abortion. More to the point, exotic illness isn’t as common as people think, even in San Francisco–rare cases get oversensationalized in the press. So I doubt the effect of weird diseases from abroad on the complication rate of abortion in California would be very big. Maybe you can suggest something, some hypothetical reason why the complication rate per abortion would be different in California than elsewhere.
You wrote: “By doctors who did the abortion do you mean private doctors or abortion clinic doctors?”
Both.
You wrote: “Certainly if a woman who had an abortion had it done by her private doctor she would follow up with him/her or a partner.”
Also clinic docs. The instructions to the patient from a typical clinic are: if you have a complication, call the clinic, unless it’s heavy bleeding (soaking more than five pads) in which case go to the ER without waiting to call the clinic. Most patients comply with their instructions.
You wrote: “By hospitalization do you mean women who were treated and released on an outpatient basis or women who actually had to be admitted as inpatients? ”
You know, I don’t know which of these the authors of the Annals article I linked to had in mind but my guess would be they’re only counting inpatient hospitalizations when they say the rate is seven per ten-thousand abortions. (They add: “less serious complications occurred in 8 per 1000 abortions”, my guess would be that they are counting outpatient ER visits as “less serious complications”. But again, that’s just a guess. You’d have to ask the authors of the original article (Hakim-Elahi E, Tovell HM, Burnhill MS. Complications of first-trimester abortion: a report of 170,000 cases. Obstet Gynecol. 1990;76:129-35. ) to get a reliable answer to your question.)
You wrote: “Also, since some states don’t report complications, just how accurate are these stats?”
Again, the population of the states that don’t report is a small fraction of the population of the states that do, so small a fraction that including or excluding the states that don’t report is unlikely to make a significant difference in your answer for the national rate, unless their rates are many times different from the national rate. Did you do as I suggested–look up the reproductive-age female population of California and compare it to the reproductive-age female population of the rest of the USA? When I suggest an exercise like this, I’m not just spinning my wheels. My goal is to help you become smarter (or at least, better-informed about abortion) than you are.
SOMG,
If girls are becoming pregnant again and going to term, then abortion is not preventing teen motherhood.
List of bad examples? YOU are the one who made the assumption California attracts the “cream” of abortion providers. Obviously it does not.
If anything this shows California gets rid of the bad ones? Don’t make me laugh. Why were they even practicing to begin with if California attracts the “cream” of the abortionists?
When hard data is unavailable you make the best estimates you can with the fewest and weakest assumptions you can get away with. Sounds like great science.
You’re comfortable making the assumption that California abortion complication rate isn’t much higher than the rest of the country, even though all states don’t report statistics.
What would epidemiologists say about these two statements SOMG? You fail your prelim?
Its hardly any surprise that a woman would see her private doctor for abortion complications if he/she performed the abortion. You haven’t told me the number or percentages of women who return to the abortion clinic, like Hodari’s, or the one in New Jersey with the rusty crochet hooks,for follow up care of complications. Women from these clinics went to hospitals for emergency surgery, and it wasn’t performed by the abortionists.
Women with heavy bleeding are advised to go to the ER. That’s fine. Does the abortion clinic doc go in to care for her? I’ve read some of them, like the California ones I mentioned, are denied hospital privileges, especially those practicing without a medical license, or does another doctor take over?
Inpatient hospitalization should not be that common these days for abortion complications. Better surgical techniques, fluid therapy, and antibiotics enable women to be treated and released from the ER or after outpatient surgery. Even the woman I mentioned with the 102 temperature went home in the morning after her midnight surgery.
Less serious complications could mean discharge from the ER? It could mean no hospital visit at all.
Do the exercise as you suggest? SOMG, you admit your statement about California is guessing and assumptions. Maybe you should work on it. Your goal is to make me smarter on abortion? LOL, whatever.
Mary, you wrote: “If girls are becoming pregnant again and going to term, then abortion is not preventing teen motherhood.”
Right. But we have also agreed that that only happens SOME of the time. If each abortion I do only prevents labor and delivery some of the time, I can live with that. It’s still net-beneficial preventative medicine.
You wrote: “If anything this shows California gets rid of the bad ones? Don’t make me laugh. ”
Every bad abortion provider on your list is now out of practice, except (maybe) one. If you don’t agree that this shows that California is doing a good job of getting rid of them, then what DO you think it shows?
You wrote: “Why were they [the bad abortion docs on your list] even practicing to begin with if California attracts the “cream” of the abortionists?”
You have made a logic error with this question–there is no inconsistancy between a state attracting the best members of a profession and also containing some bad members of that profession. Washington DC (not a state but let’s not quibble and in any case I mean Washington DC and its environs) attracts the best lawyers in the USA, and also some of the worst. I’m saying the AVERAGE Californian abortion doc, like the average Californian generally, can be expected to have better technical skills than people in other states. Can you think of a state where people have better technical skills than in California, or for that matter a state where people are generally better at their jobs, higher acheivers, than in California? The only state that can even be called a contender is New York. Maybe if you’re judging on a per-capita basis, measuring total technical prowess PER RESIDENT in the state, you could make an argument for including Massachussetts in the running because it is both very hi-tech and small. But in the end California wins.
You wrote, sarcastically: “When hard data is unavailable you make the best estimates you can with the fewest and weakest assumptions you can get away with. Sounds like great science. ”
It is–not necessarily “great” but (hopefully) adequate. A very large part of an epidemiologist’s work consists of making estimates where hard data are unavailable. Ask anyone you know who does epidemiology if you don’t believe this. As long as you carefully explain your assumptions, and reasoning, and discuss how your estimates would be different if your assumptions turned out to be wrong, it’s OK, it’s still considered good science. If new data become available and your assumptions turn out to be right that’s even better.
You wrote: “You’re comfortable making the assumption that California abortion complication rate isn’t much higher than the rest of the country, even though all states don’t report statistics.”
Until hard data from California become available, the national rate as measured from states that do report seems to me like the most reasonable first approximation for California’s rate, the estimate most likely to be right or close to right. You have not suggested any reason why California’s rate should be expected to be significantly different from the national rate, although I have twice invited you to do so.
You wrote: “Women with heavy bleeding are advised to go to the ER. That’s fine. Does the abortion clinic doc go in to care for her? I’ve read some of them, like the California ones I mentioned, are denied hospital privileges, especially those practicing without a medical license, or does another doctor take over? ”
All this sort of thing varies from place to place. In some parts of the country it can be difficult for an abortion doc to get hospital admitting privileges, fortunately not anywhere I want to live.
You wrote: “Inpatient hospitalization should not be that common these days for abortion complications. ”
You’re complaining about seven inpatient admissions per ten thousand abortions? If that’s not rare enough for you, what would be? After all, the hospitalization rate for the childbirth which the abortion (SOMETIMES) prevents is more than fifty percent.
You wrote: “Your goal is to make me smarter on abortion? LOL, whatever. ”
Believe it or not that is my reason for posting on Jill’s site.
You wrote: “You haven’t told me the number or percentages of women who return to the abortion clinic, like Hodari’s, or the one in New Jersey with the rusty crochet hooks,for follow up care of complications. Women from these clinics went to hospitals for emergency surgery, and it wasn’t performed by the abortionists.”
Again you are listing bad examples which does not prove anything, and furthermore the examples you list here are now out of practice. Just as before, if your examples show anything at all it is that bad practicioners are being successfully weeded out of the industry.
I think you can do better than this.
Can you think of a state where people have better technical skills than in California, or for that matter a state where people are generally better at their jobs, higher acheivers, than in California?
No offense to the CA residents who post here, but you’re joking, right? Workers’ computer skills in the Silicon Valley may be top-notch, but in my experience, the work-ethic in California compared to much of the U.S. leaves little to be desired. They start work later than the rest of us, due to time zone differences and many leave the office about the same time we do and therefore get less work done For whatever reasons, the culture in CA is much more laid-back than the rest of the country. Surfing rules.:)
I also wouldn’t doubt that the level of care by abortionists to non-English-speaking patients is not up to par with that of English-speaking patients, for the very reason of language differences.
Janet, you wrote: “Workers’ computer skills in the Silicon Valley may be top-notch…”
Computer skills are only one component of it, albeit a necessary one. Can you name a single scientific or technical area or field in which Californians do not excel? And by the way Silicon Valley is now properly called Biotech Bay and it’s only one of several ultra-high-IQ/ultra-high-tech regions in California, not even the most intense of them–the most intense and central science place in California right now is in San Diego area, a bunch of small biotech companies clustered around a mostly-biotech/chemistry research institute in La Jolla called The Scripps Clinic. If you do science there, you’re swimming with the sharks. What are they doing that’s so important that they all work so hard and never see their families? Well I guess the most important thing is that they are leaders in developing methods for measuring the properties of millions of distinct chemical compounds at once, what we call “high-throughput” chemistry, which consists of two steps: first, creating large diverse semi-random libraries of related but different molecules and second, learning ways to select and identify from such a library the one member that does what you want it to do. The old way was to predict which molecule would do what you wanted and then try to make it; the new way is to generate a large diverse group of semi-randomly varied molecules and go fishing for the one that does what you want. It’s the same thing your immune system does–it makes a diverse library of related but different molecules (antibodies) and has a system which causes the ones that do what you want them to do (stick to invading organisms) to replicate. The whole idea was inspired by the immune system. But in the lab you’re not restricted to antibodies, you can make all kinds of weird libraries of molecules. Libraries of millions of different steroids which you test all at once for binding to a receptor, or millions of different benzodiazapines, or whatever you can think of and learn to modify in systematic ways. Unnatural, non-peptide combinatorial oligomers, each bound to a different point on a chip, therefore identifiable by location. Peptides that contain amino acids other than the twenty natural ones, synthetic ones with special physical properties.
I’d call this the second most important science being done right now, the most important being genomics–developing the capacity to dial up genomes and create designed organisms with chosen sets of mutations and rationally-selected genes arranged according to choice.
However all this is a digression. Janet, you wrote: “For whatever reasons, the culture in CA is much more laid-back than the rest of the country.”
Having lived there and in several other places I can say from experience that this is an illusion. Sure a Californian driver will give you a friendly wave when a New York driver would give you the finger, but the Californian means the same thing by his friendly wave that the New Yorker means by giving you the finger, he just expresses it differently.
A lot of emphasis is placed in California culture on the APPEARANCE of being relaxed. Whoever can smile most broadly will win an argument in California with an opponent who lets stress get to him. (Unlike, for example, Boston, where the person who shouts loudest or drives most recklessly typically wins.) But this does not prevent Californians from being extremely serious about what they do, particularly people involved in hi-tech endeavors or jobs requiring specialized skills. The only people I’ve interacted with who worked harder than Californian hi-tech types were surgical residents.
Then maybe it’s high time you move back to California, dude.
Sounds like you could teach THEM a thing or two.
SOMG,
You made the assumption that California attracts the “cream” of the abortionists, which obviously it does not. Some of the names I mentioned didn’t have licenses or even training. One was a sex offender that even a California senator expressed outrage over. They were repeat and long term offenders and law violaters. Not exactly the kind of people you hire when the “cream” is so readily available. All it shows me is the California Medical and Licensing Boards finally got around to doing what they should have been more vigilant about from the beginning. I don’t see this as any badge of honor.
Like I said SOMG for several years no statistics came from California and a number of other states, and still don’t. The hard data is not there, period. Free standing clinics were not even regulated, what makes anyone think reporting was of any concern to them? Who made sure they reported? The stats supporting aborion “safety” came from University hospital patients who accounted for 5% of abortions. “Hopefully adequate” is wishful thinking at best.
If they’re denied admitting priveleges SOMG its because they do not meet the standards set by the hospital and cannot be credentialled. Not having a medical license would rank right up there! Since an abortionist need only be an MD, the hospital won’t allow a dermatologist who performs abortions on the side to admit women with gynecological complications from abortion. A credentialled OB/GYN would have to be called in.
From my own experience SOMG, I stress my own, I have never seen an abortionist come in to care for his patient’s complications. An OB/GYN had to be called.
SOMG, I didn’t complain about a thing! I stressed that inpatient hospitalizations would not be all that likely these days, the women we treated could be discharged from the ER or on an outpatient basis. This indicates advances in medical care and is hardly a complaint.
SOMG you clearly stated in your 8:21 post that your goal is to make me become smarter or better informed on the issue of abortion.
12:05am
You didn’t give me the percentage of women who actually return to the abortion clinic for follow up care. I gave a couple examples where they had to be followed up by hospital staff OB/GYNs. The abortionists in these situations obviously do not do the follow up on their own patients and are not responsible for their post opertive complications. I know of no other situation where this is considered acceptable medical practice.
I would like a follow up call from the abortionist who did mine. Ask me how the last 17 years of “getting on with it” have gone.
I like you Mary!
Carla,
Thank you, I’m very fond of you as well.
Its likely that, to him, you were just one of many many women passing through that day and week. All of them “getting on with it”.
You know Mary,
I have often wondered about follow up care after an abortion. I get surveys from my doctor all the time. Fill it out about how check in went,how long I waited for my name to be called and how long it took my family doctor to actually see me. Was he respectful and seemed to listen and answer my questions? Was the staff caring and friendly?
I won’t hold my breath for that to happen in the abortion business, but I would like to see some research done. It would be quite revealing I am sure.
No offense to the CA residents who post here, but you’re joking, right? Workers’ computer skills in the Silicon Valley may be top-notch, but in my experience, the work-ethic in California compared to much of the U.S. leaves little to be desired.
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Excuse me?
California accounts for 10% of the nation’s population, yet produces over 20% of the gross national product.
Here’s a nice little article about who pays the bills in this country, and it AINT the Republican Red States, it’s those of us in the Liberal Democratic Blue States:
http://bigpicture.typepad.com/writing/2004/11/red_states_feed.html
Laura:
I’m not doubting the work ethic of the high tech workers. I’m talking about the “average Joes” being below par.
The map on your link is interesting (a study that shows exactly which states benefit from federal tax and spending policies, and which states foot the bill). It’s not really relevant to this conversation, IMO, nor is California’s GNP.
Somg:
You may be right about appearances being important in CA, but that wouldn’t fly too well with people from other parts of the country. I’ve been to La Jolla and Scripps (Aquarium) – very cool place, I get your point about the high-tech (That’s what I should have said instead of “computer workers”) – but I still think there are bad apples in every bunch. See above comment (to Laura) about high tech workers vs. average Joes.
Pregnancy and childbirth are natural biological functions. Forcing metal rods or seaweed tampons to pry open a cervix, and inserting high powered vaccuum cleaners and sharp instruments is NOT a natural biological function! I never had to get a permission slip to urinate when I was underage. You can’t compare needing consent to have a risky elective surgery to needing consent to do nothing let nature take its course.
So parents should be able to force elective surgeries on their daughters? Why not their boys? Why not force sons into vasectomies, lipo-suction, rhinoplasty? Why are just young women are forced to be pried and prodded and left bleeding?
Finally- Laura, you’re probably right about this girl manipulating her parents, but that doesn’t matter. Maybe she wanted the abortion to hide the pregnancy from her parents for whatever motives teen girls have (to make sure she could still see her boyfriend, fit into her prom dress, not disappoint her folks, etc.), but that doesn’t justify a grown woman defrauding the law and usurping the parent’s rights to protect their daughter and grandchild. Who was the adult here?
Likewise, that “rancid little whore” is also a child. Maybe she lied and defrauded those men, and the sentences aren’t just, but she’s still a child. She’s also a previously sexually abused/raped child since she’s sexually active so young. Her parents are negligent for not supervising her properly, but she’s a child. Let’s remember who the adults are.
Stay close, Jacque, we’ve been needing you.
Jacqueline, “natural” does not mean “safe” or “good for you”. Cancer is a natural biological function.