Barack Obama pro-infanticide media coverage
UPDATE, 1:30p: Reader Charles wanted to learn how to pronounce the word “infanticide” on the web, and he was surprised to see the word’s sponsor (click to enlarge):
UPDATE, 12:10p: Reader HisMan just forwarded this (click to enlarge)…
First, someone sent me the link to a blog with an interesting photo of the preborn Barack Obama, as you can see on the right.
On now, on to the coverage…
I was going to list the conservative blogs covering this but there are too many. They’re all over this.
Nothing from the liberal blogs or websites yet, though.
[Photo courtesy of instructionsfortheignorant.com]
Aug.12, 2008 11:38 am |
Aborted alive, Born Alive, Campaign, Obama |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
“Nothing from the liberal blogs or websites yet, though.”
Nor will there be.
Jill:
Hit him hard, and over, and over, and over, and over again.
This guy calls himself a Christian and yet has a conscience that supports the murder of a child that has already been born simply because that child was targeted for abortion. What kind of monster can do this? Shoulsn’t the Christina view of this be the exact opposite, i.e., the care and nurthure of the unwanted? And this guy wants to terminate the child and call it an act of mercy. Again, this represents the thinking of a truly disturbed person. Certainly not the thinking of any Christian that I know of. And then, when there’s a political backlash, he lies and distorts his position about it. This is blasphemy of the highest kind. Barack Obama is no Christian.
Want evidence of Obama’s unsitablity to lead. Just read the views of many of teh pro-abort monsters on this site that support him.
Does anyone out there, even any pro-choicers, understand what this means? Why don’t you Liberals just admit for once the obvious. You’ve chosen the wrong person for President and he’s got no chance at winning.
Obama is simply an evil person, worse than Hillary and Bill. Bill was a stupid liar. Obama is as cunning as they come and so are teh people that support him. They are all wolves in sheep’s clothing ready even to dismember an innocent child for the sake of winning power, advancing their perverted agenda of changing the owrld into their sick images of immorality, debauchery, homosexuality, gay marriage, socialism and yes, infanticide upon demand.
I’d rather see a pro-choice Joe Leiberman in office than Obama; Obama is evil and will gravely hurt this country. Wake up Liberals to the fresh air of truth and the admission of wrong.
Proof all of the wing nuts are drinking the same Kool Aid. Ho Hum.
The “infacticide” smear will be refuted if it ever emerges from Crazy Town.
“Nothing from the liberal blogs or websites yet, though.”
Nor will there be.
Posted by: Hal at August 12, 2008 12:13 PM
Hal:
Perhaps you meant to say, you “hope” there won’t be any comment from Liberal blogs? Please tell me you were stating the obvious becuase you now realize what a monster Obama is.
Hal, of all the pro-aborts on this site, I thought you had the best shot at seeing the light. Was I wrong about you, Hal? Are you even willing to support a madman who was and is willing to sacrifice a “born alive” child for the sake of power and and a sick notion of preserving abortion rights? What if any one of the “born alive” children was one of your daughters Hal? What would you do? Would you even be willing to sacrifice her for the Liberal infanticidal agenda? Please answer the question Hal, because it is fundamental to who you are and what you believe and ultimately, who you support. Then Hal, go look your daughter and wife in the eye and tell them of your answer. Let me know how it goes, Hal.
Sorry, “infanticide”. 84 days to the election, 84 (or more) “infanticide” posts. Ho hum.
HisMan, thank you for your kind words. (except the “Monster” part)
This is such a non-issue however. Obama is no madman. He’s not that different than the rest of us, just a bit smarter. He has daughters too you know. He did not sacrifice a “born alive” child. At worst, he left that decision to the doctor and mother who were on the scene. I can live with that.
Nor will there be.
Posted by: Hal at August 12, 2008 12:13 PM
=====================
I guess you’re right. Vote to kill a born human being — no media coverage; vote to loosen the standards on animal species protection — and now you got a fight.
It’s a messed up world we live in.
“He’s not that different than the rest of us, just a bit smarter.
—————————————-
IF he wins, he can kill millions with a stroke of a pen…you call that ‘smarter’?
“He did not sacrifice a “born alive” child.”
——————————————
He is willing to sacrifice a lot more than just a born-alive child…he is willing to sacrifice everybody else… just to get elected.
You all do realize, I hope, that because of the efforts of the pro life movement, abortion techniques like PBA and Saline are no longer, or very scarcely used in legal abortions. Because presently, a fetus is killed in a method that leaves no likelihood of survival, you are getting all hysterical over what is essentially a non-issue. First trimester abortions that could result in an entire fetus being expelled have 0 chance of survival. Second trimester abortions are now done in such a way that there is also 0 chance of the fetus being expelled alive – as WAS possible in D&X and saline abortions.
You know how many of you are always reminding the PC’ers that rape and incest make up such a small percentage of abortions that its ridiculous for us to make an issue of it? Well this is even more rare, obsucre, and increasingly unlikely – due in large part to your own efforts.
Good points Amanda. But how can we stop the “Obama kills babies” mantra, now that we’re having so much fun with it?
“But how can we stop the “Obama kills babies” mantra, now that we’re having so much fun with it?”
By making him the president. You’ll recall the other popular conservative mantra, which is that you should never bash your country’s president during a time of war. We will undoubtedly still be at war in November.
“…due in large part to your own efforts.”
———————————
And what would you have us do, Amanda/ Hal?
Stand around and do nothing (like what you pro-aborts do)?
I am reminded of this saying:
“Evil flourishes when good men do NOTHING”
No…not in my lifetime.
Amanda, 1:23p, said: “You all do realize, I hope, that because of the efforts of the pro life movement, abortion techniques like PBA and Saline are no longer, or very scarcely used in legal abortions.”
Amanda, two times in one week you have made it abundantly clear you don’t have a clue. You don’t actually read my posts. You don’t know what is going on.
The method of abortion that results in babies being born alive is called induced labor abortion. Read about it on George Tiller’s site…
http://www.drtiller.com/proc_elec.html
… except in hospitals the doctors don’t kill the babies before delivering. They expect them to die during the birth process or soon after. I held one of those babies for 45 minutes.
“And what would you have us do, Amanda/ Hal?
Stand around and do nothing (like what you pro-aborts do)?”
I don’t know RSD, how about a hobby?
LOL. okay Jill.
Too bad thats a fake website, and you’re still the only person I’ve ever encountered in all of my years of activity in this field to claim this occurs often, if it at all. Your own coworkers still claim you’re a liar. I’ll wait for proof. But thanks anyways.
“I don’t know RSD, how about a hobby?
Posted by: Hal at August 12, 2008 1:45 PM
————————————-
Sorry, Hal…I’m done with hobby’s when I was a kid…I move on to more important things…like trying to preserve the life of the unborn.
Sorry, Hal…I’m done with hobby’s when I was a kid…I move on to more important things…like trying to preserve the life of the unborn.
Posted by: RSD at August 12, 2008 1:51 PM
How’s that going, by the way?
It’s going good, Hal…..there’s just this guy that ‘thinks’ he’s a Christian but wants to kill born-alive babies…and a few of his supporters that believe all his lies.
Other than that…I think we’re doing great!
right. ha. Old Joke: “Other than that,Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?”
Amanda, 1:48p, wrote: “LOL. okay Jill. Too bad thats a fake website…”
You’ve got to be kidding. Google George Tiller, click on, “Late Term Abortion Care – Women’s Health Care Services, P.A.,” click on “Late Abortion Care Elective,” and click on “Procedure.”
Amanda also wrote: “you’re still the only person I’ve ever encountered in all of my years of activity in this field to claim this occurs often, if it at all.”
Amanda, you neither read much or get around much, and you claim to be in the field? How’s this: Chicago Sun-Times, March 31, 2001: “A spokesman for Christ Hospital’s parent, Advocate Health Care, said it provides ‘compassionate care’ for its patients and estimated that between 10 percent and 20 percent of fetuses with genetic defects that are aborted survive for short periods outside the womb.”
“A spokesman for Christ Hospital’s parent, Advocate Health Care, said it provides ‘compassionate care’ for its patients and estimated that between 10 percent and 20 percent of fetuses with genetic defects that are aborted survive for short periods outside the womb.”
So, is that one or two per year? Per decade? Per day?
Hal:
You think Pontius Pilate, when he washed his hands of the Blood of Jesus Christ, was held unaccoutable and unrepsonsible for his actions by God the Father?
Politicians who are elected and ultimately answerable to Almighty God for their votes are inexorably held to account. Obama’s no different.
And here’s the questions again Hal, please answer it: “Are you even willing to support a madman who was and is willing to sacrifice a “born alive” child for the sake of power and and a sick notion of preserving abortion rights? What if any one of the “born alive” children was one of your daughters Hal? What would you do? Would you even be willing to sacrifice her for the Liberal infanticidal agenda? Please answer the question Hal, because it is fundamental to who you are and what you believe and ultimately, who you support. Then Hal, go look your daughter and wife in the eye and tell them of your answer. Let me know how it goes, Hal.”
Jill:
I think Amanda is unstable. Her responses are irrelevant. She is here just to be a fly in the ointment, a distraction. Wouldn’t doubt it if she was being paid to do so or worse yet, doing it for free.
I think you should consider banning her.
No – I’m not kidding – thats not his real website. Its fake. End of story. We already got to the bottom of that in my Facebook group when we called the office and asked them about it.
As for your second point, yep – thats 10 to 20% of the small percentage of women who abort that late, of the very small percentage of women who find out their fetus has a genetic defect after the baby is viable but before its born, which was exactly my point (hence, “not often”). Thats not even taking in to consideration how many people who worked with you still claim you’re lying. I can’t say either way without proof – other than its VERY rare. No more rare than abortions due to rape or incest.
“So, is that one or two per year? Per decade? Per day?
Posted by: Hal at August 12, 2008 3:35 PM”
———————————–
Does it really matter, Hal?
One, single LIFE is precious…unfortunately, you pro-aborts don’t realize the importance of that life IF it’s not yours.
I’m not sure it matters RSD. Amanda said it was rare, Jill said it wasn’t. So, I’m asking.
Hisman:”Are you even willing to support a madman who was and is willing to sacrifice a “born alive” child for the sake of power and and a sick notion of preserving abortion rights?”
I don’t think I would support a madman who is willing to sacrifice a born alive child for the sake of power. I do, however, enthusiatically support Senator Obama, who doesn’t fit that descripton in my view.
Hi Amanda,
How many of those at Christ Hospital who claim Jill is lying have a blog that gets 4 million visits a month?! But keep using the “liar, liar pants on fire” argument. Cute.
So, all I have gotten out of your comments today is that abortionists must KILL, KILL, KILL that baby before its born. Otherwise it’s not an abortion is it? No oosies, no sloppy work, no exceptions.
Oopsies, I meant.
How does getting lots of visits make everything she says truth? The Onion gets about 12 million hits a day – I wouldn’t take anything on there as proof. I won’t call her a liar myself, only saying I’d need proof.
As for your second paragraph, the most commonly used method of abortion now does indeed kill the baby before its born. That is because the procedures which were more likely to result in a live birth have been banned or abandoned. That has absolutely nothing to do with me or my opinions about it – its just the truth.
Doctor Tiller’s website is drtiller.com That is his website. dr-tiller.com is the fake website that is critical of him. It’s interesting when people can’t even agree on verifiable facts.
Amanda, 3:41p, wrote: “No – I’m not kidding – thats not his real website. Its fake. End of story. We already got to the bottom of that in my Facebook group when we called the office and asked them about it.”
This is surreal. Ok, Amanda, provide the web address of Tiller’s real abortion clinic site.
Obama’s picture with the definition of “infanticide”? Yeah, that’s appropriate…….
Hal:
So, in your view of course, Obama didn’t vote against the Illinois Born Alive Infant Protection Act even though that’s what the written record proves?
So was he agin it befur he was fur it?
Have you ever testified in court or been on a jury?
Jill,
Could this be Tiller’s real site?It has his picture on it and his curriculum vitae.
http://www.drtiller.com/medir.html
Hal:
I don’t think you could convict a murderer if you saw him/her pull the trigger in front of your nose.
With Hal and Amanda on board today the “Air is Rare”.
or Tiller’s mainpage:
http://www.drtiller.com/mainpg.html
(apropos – from another thread)
Hal: Obama does not, and never has, “favored killing living babies.” He might not have voted the way you wanted him to on a bill in the Illinois Senate, but I challenge you to find a quote of him saying he “favors killing living babies.”
Right – his objections to the IL bill came from the two-doctor requirement in some circumstances, and pertained to the doctor-patient relationship as far as the woman and her physician.
At worst, he left that decision to the doctor and mother who were on the scene. I can live with that.
“At worst” he was such a coward that he couldn’t enable a bill demonstrating some human decency for fear of losing the backing of the abortion industrial complex and, therefore votes.
Amanda believes that making the point that infanticides are as yet “rare”…that is, in comparison to the millions of the rest of the deliberate killings…just shows that for now at least there is still some shame to be associated with actual infant slaughter when it’s observable outside of its own mothe and in the light. But as abortion itself – of any type – was also considered to be abominable previously, the gradual acceptance by the boiling frogs will coerce the consciences of once decent people and medical professionals to make this sickness another attachment to the holocaust of societal suicide. The road to hell, even in this world, is indeed paved with good intentions!
Doug:
So it’s OK to murder a living child as long as a doctor and the mother say it’s OK? Who in the hell gave anybody the right to condemn another human being to death for whatever reason?
Let’s see…where do we go from here? It’s OK to murder as long as a dad and his doctor say it’s OK….how ’bout that one? OR….
It’s OK to murder ___________ as long as a doctor and a _________ agree to it? Fill in the blansk you Liberal pukes.
Doctors are not freaking gods. In fact, many of them don’t know crap about true health and the vast majority of them are are walking PDRs and profit centers for drug companies. And now Liberals have conferred divinity upon them as if they know every damn affect of their pronouncments.
Sick, this is sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, this is beyond sick, this is diabolical and satanic. Our society is absolutely screwed that we have lost a generation to perversion, semantic bending, term redefiniton, value twisting, and morality bending. And we deserve all the punishment and wrath that such seeds of moral relativism sowed back in the 60’s and 70’s are now reaping.
*peers*
Hallo!!!!
Linked to your post from Jeremiah Films’ McCain vs Obama on Right to Life
Hey Erin!!
He might not have voted the way you wanted him to on a bill in the Illinois Senate, but I challenge you to find a quote of him saying he “favors killing living babies.”
Yeah, cause he’s outright gonna say it, Doug. @@ Since politicians are basically liars, it’s best to look at their actions, not their words.
Hi Erin!
KC:
I’m with you. All this site needs in another HisMan. Hal and Amanda v. HisMan and KC. I’ll take those odds.
Can I count on you to guard my back?
Wherin you been Erin?
HisMan: So it’s OK to murder a living child as long as a doctor and the mother say it’s OK?
No, that’s not Obama’s position at all. His objections to the IL bills were for stuff that’s not in the federal bill that passed. Plenty of politicians vote against bills that include stuff they don’t like, though there may also be stuff they’re in agreement with.
Bethany: Yeah, cause he’s outright gonna say it, Doug. @@ Since politicians are basically liars, it’s best to look at their actions, not their words.
He laid it right out in the IL Senate deabte on the bills. He’s not against caring for born babies.
I have heard all of it, Doug. Is the patient/doctor relationship more important than the life of born American citizens being allowed to live?
Hal, can you refresh my memory as to why your wife doesn’t know you even visit this blog on a regular basis and doesn’t even know this blog exists?
I can’t remember very clearly whether there was some kind of physical problem or whether it was emotional (I think it might have been both) that she developed after the abortions she had?
There was something really weird about the whole situation, but it’s so vague I can only remember bits and pieces.
Again, wasn’t Obama on the IL senate committee to promote this bill? Wasn’t the IL senate controlled by the Dems when this bill came up?
If this is true, He could have changed the language in the bill or deleted language in the bill at anytime to preserve the essence of the bill and take out what he didn’t want and then fight to get it passed. Because he did nothing, it clearly showed he was not favoring the bill and would make sure it DIDN’T go anywhere.
Does it matter Bethany?
Rae
Yes. I know it might be hard to understand why, but to me it matters. It breaks down every argument Hal makes on a daily basis, bragging that he is a “satisfied abortion customer” and that his wife is too. He may be, but what about his wife?
He said that she has some kind of an emotional, or physical problem which happened after the abortion- of course, he won’t say that it had anything to do with the abortion, but isn’t it possible that it was Hal that pressured his wife into abortion and is leaving her alone to suffer the consequences? Why doesn’t she know him well enough to know he’s on this blog, ever? He’s been here for 2 years. Surely she should have heard about it at least once since then.
He has admitted that he never, ever has asked her feelings about the abortions, that they’ve never really discussed it. And he promised me that he would ask her, and he never got back to me about it.
Funny thing is, I just remembered this stuff the other day, because it’s been such a while I had almost forgotten about it. So yes, I felt it truly mattered and I would like to hear what he has to say about it.
I think I may have been confused the other day when I said it was Hal I was sympathizing with. I must have gotten confused. It was his WIFE. I knew something was weird about it ,but I couldn’t seem to put my finger on what till I remembered this conversation about his wife which never ended up continuing.
HisMan…You SO ROCK !!!
“At worst” he was such a coward that he couldn’t enable a bill demonstrating some human decency for fear of losing the backing of the abortion industrial complex and, therefore votes…..
Posted by: KC at August 12, 2008 5:33 PM
Actually KC, he suggested just such a thing; it’s in the testimony link. The “comfort room” seems to be the result of this type of human decency and compassion. But for some reason, Jill seems to think that comfort rooms are bad – at least she posts photos of it with captions that insinuate it is.
above was me.
Doctors are not freaking gods. In fact, many of them don’t know crap about true health and the vast majority of them are are walking PDRs and profit centers for drug companies. And now Liberals have conferred divinity upon them as if they know every damn affect of their pronouncments.
Sick, this is sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, this is beyond sick, this is diabolical and satanic. Our society is absolutely screwed that we have lost a generation to perversion, semantic bending, term redefiniton, value twisting, and morality bending. And we deserve all the punishment and wrath that such seeds of moral relativism sowed back in the 60’s and 70’s are now reaping.
Posted by: HisMan at August 12, 2008 5:40 PM
Oh nonsense HM. Doctors and next of kin make end of life decisions all the time. And I for one wouldn’t want it any other way – and if you think about it, neither would you. Do you really want the government, or some Dr., or “panel” who doesn’t know you or your relative deciding if life-prolonging measures are instituted? That’s what’s sick, that’s torture (for all involved). All it will do is keep people out of hospital for beginning and end of life events.
You all do realize, I hope, that because of the efforts of the pro life movement, abortion techniques like PBA and Saline are no longer, or very scarcely used in legal abortions.
Posted by: Amanda at August 12, 2008 1:23 PM
True Amanda, it is now illegal. But Obama fought to keep it legal and expressed his disagreement with the fact that it was made legal. Goes to the mindset of a sociopathic killer who last year could have gotten away his support caus eit was legal but now he would be considered an accomplice to murder if he enabled one to be performed. What kind of morals does it take when the only reason you don’t kill a baby is cause it is illegal to do so?
truthseeker @ 10:46, What kind of morals does it take when the only reason you don’t kill a baby is cause it is illegal to do so?
Right on!
truthseeker @ 10:46, What kind of morals does it take when the only reason you don’t kill a baby is cause it is illegal to do so?
Right on!
Posted by: Janet at August 12, 2008 11:09 PM
………………………
What kind of morals do you have when the only reason you don’t kill or do kill is based upon whatever suits your religous guru?
Since when did anyone have the right to make an end of life decision for anyone? The decision is God’s alone. And to pretend that such a decision is in human hands is an utter expression of arrogance and pride.
SoMG thinks he/she is the one terminating a life. Think again. He/she simply sins gravely every time he/she participates in an abortion that God allows, does not condone, allows. And, the wrath account grows.
Everything that happens to every single soul on this planet first has to pass through the judgement seat of God. Oh, but woe unto anyone that thinks that such a decison is theirs to make. It’d be better if that person had never been born. Standing in the judgement seat of God is no different than what the anti-Christ will do, sitting in the Temple and calling himself God before the world. It’s no different than satan’s heavenly rebellion. To God, it’s all the same. And the penalty will be the same also….eternal damnation.
Back in 1980, when my dad was sick and dying in bed with heart failure at the age of 83, he asked me to terminate his life. I loved my dad with all my heart and to hear those words were devastating. He said, “please kill me”. However, my dad was not my God and never, ever, never, never, never, in a million years would I do that to anyone irregardless of their condition or degree of suffering. God is in control of every circumstance. I am not God and I will never stand in His place nor condone anyone else doing same.
Similarly, no individual has the right to terminate a life for any reason, be it a doctor or a mother or a relative. No one can be educated enough to know, no mother can reject a baby enough, and no one can love a relative enough to be justified in the killing of an innocent human being.
And you Liberals want to elect a President that has the morals and conscience of a rabid dog? You should all be ashamed of your perversion and departure from the truth.
The killing of a born alive infant targeted for abortion is an end of life decision? My God, the baby hasn’t even lived a few hours and a doctor or mother or relative has the right to make an end-of-life decision? And you want to elect a man who thinks it’s justifiable? Ludicrous, absolutely ludicrous, BS ludicrous, insanely ludicorus, satanic.
I’ll warn all you pro-aborts in the strongest of terms; if you don;t expereince the luxury of dying instantly, will consciously face the consequences of supporting and killing of a billion innocent babies over the last 35 years. Why, each one of those billion tiny faces may appear before you in the twinkling of an eye, crying to God for vindication, “why, why, why did you not give me a chance at life, who are you that you begged, argued and opined for our execution, what knowledge did you possessm, what evil did we do, what did we do to you”? And as you sweat and whine and moan in agony at the approach of the angel of death, unable to change your situation, cry to the God of mercy and grace that he dispatch your souls to hell quickly and not laugh at your demise.
Stop screwing with God, the God of love and mercy, and the God of divine wrath.
Rae,
I’ll continue where Bethany left off.
It matters because, up to this point, we’ve only heard Hal’s side of the story. He asked that we stop bringing up his wife; it was obvious that the topic made him uncomfortable. Very well.
I think, too, it has to do with how men and women cope with decisions such as abortion. Hal’s satisfied. So satisfied that he’s been hanging out with us for 2 years making sure we know that he’s satisfied.
But what about his wife? She was the one who had to undergo the procedures; is she as gung-ho? If she were to come online and say that everything’s hunky dory so lay off it, will ya, then case closed.
If Mrs. Hal does make an appearance and alludes to the slightest hint of distaste for her experiences, then there are a number of us who would reach out in some way. Carla instantly comes to mind, as does B and MK.
I don’t see it as a “See, I told you so!” opportunity. It would be more like, “If you need help, we’re here for you.”
Carder, I agree 100 percent with your explanation! Thank you for clarifying that for me.
Hisman, did you insist your Dad be resuscitated everytime he went into cardiac arrest? Did you approve intubation? If no, according to your views, you are a murderer. If yes, according to human decency, you are a torturer.
Headline Conclusion a la antichoicers: Hisman Supports Torturing Parents
Either way, you’re a sick, irrational individual and I hope you find some help.
Hal, while I am at it, there is also another question which I never got the answer to, and I would like to hear the answer to it.
I have asked you on at least 3 separate occasions a question, and each time you have said that it was a big question, and that you had to go but you’d be back to respond to the question the next day…but you never did come back and respond.
I would like you to take the time to answer this question, please:
“Hal, I’m also curious. Why did you and your wife feel pain after your wife’s miscarriage?
I just remember that recently you said that you had suffered from such a loss and it had been hard on you.
I understand that expectations dropped can be disappointing, however, I don’t know if you can truly feel the same depth of the suffering after a miscarriage that people who appreciate life feel, if you do not feel anything after the abortions.
How can you feel the loss of a child in one instance, but not feel the loss of the child in the other instance?
In one of your abortion instances, you said that it was regrettable that you “had” to abort. If this is true, then surely you would have felt SOMETHING, some loss, after the baby was aborted. If not, then how can you possibly explain how you feel something after a miscarriage? It makes absolutely no sense.
Posted by: Bethany at July 27, 2007 6:30 PM”
If you anti-choice conservatives disapprove
of Obama’s proposed policies and what he stands for, that’s your right. But will you get your facts right about him for a change?
He does not advocte infanticide for the umpteenth time ! He is not a monster. He is not to blame for the fact that abortion happens in America. He does not want abortions to increase; in fact it’s just the opposite.
So far, almost nothing about Obama has been heard but rumor, innuendo and guilt by association. And conservatives have been swallowing all of this garbage like yokels gawking at a travelling sanke oil salesman.
I have yet to hear one shred of evidence that he is in any way a bad man, has done anything terrible, or has evil intentions toward any one.
I don’t know if he will be any good as president, or if his proposed policies and programs will work, but I am convinced that he is no demon. He’s not a muslim, a socialist, Marxist, or communist, a friend or supporter of tyrants, supporter of 60s radical terrorists or any of the nonsense that conservatives have been spouting about him.
And all the furor over the reverend Wright is pure hypocrisy. Many of the same conservatives who rail against Obama because of the stupid rantings of Wright routinely attend sermons by fire-breathing evangelical
preachers who claim to be men of God but
do nothing but foster intolerance and bigotry against those they disapprove of.
It’s the pot calling the kettle black.
I have heard all of it, Doug. Is the patient/doctor relationship more important than the life of born American citizens being allowed to live?
Bethany, the 14th Amendment already protects born American citizens, among others, so for one thing I think some legislators thought they could chip away at abortion rights under the guise of a law which shouldn’t have been needed in the first place.
It does not really come down to a conflict between the patient/doctor relationship and the life of a born baby. Once birth has taken place, caring for the baby (whether it will survive or not) isn’t going to adversely impact the woman/doctor relationship.
I’m still surprised by Jill’s original story – that babies were “being put on a cold shelf to die” – or the like. Even in cases where death is a certainty, neither pro-choicers or pro-lifers are saying that suffering on the baby’s part is a good thing nor that it shouldn’t be lessened as much as possible, and Obama is no different – he’s not advocating suffering for babies, he just doesn’t want abortion rights compromised if laws are needed to “reinforce” the Constitution, etc.
Roger,
you haven’t been paying attention.
Doug, why did NO other democrat except Obama have a problem with the wording of the bill?
I’m still surprised by Jill’s original story – that babies were “being put on a cold shelf to die” – or the like
It makes me feel a little bit better that you seem to be bothered by the story of the babies being left on shelves to die. I hate the fact that so many here don’t seem to have a problem with it. How can anyone imagine a little helpless baby dying on a shelf alone, and feel anything but sadness?
Phylodo:
You are one confused person and with that I am being kind to you.
How my dad ultimatley passed on is none of your business.
He was in God’s hands you freak.
truthseeker @ 10:46, What kind of morals does it take when the only reason you don’t kill a baby is cause it is illegal to do so?
Right on!
Posted by: Janet at August 12, 2008 11:09 PM
………………………
What kind of morals do you have when the only reason you don’t kill or do kill is based upon whatever suits your religous guru?
Posted by: Sally at August 13, 2008 2:31 AM
You are being disrespectful. Let’s keep religion out of this.
Bethany: “I understand that expectations dropped can be disappointing, however, I don’t know if you can truly feel the same depth of the suffering after a miscarriage that people who appreciate life feel, if you do not feel anything after the abortions.”
The miscarriage was difficult, but not nearly at the level to me of what the lose of a child would be. It was, as you say, more of a disappointment that our plans to have a child at that time were delayed, and of course, some concern when ever anything goes wrong medically. I know people who have lost a child, and I can try to imagine what losing one of mine would be like. For me, a miscarriage was nothing like that. I understand that for others it might feel the same. I guess that’s your point.
Bethany, regarding my wife, please see Hisman’s post of 10:126 a.m. Second sentence.
He’s what i will tell you. She remains pro choice, supports pro-choice candiates. Gives money to pro choice groups.
Hal, well put. I advise against posting any identifying or personal information. There are many on this site obsessed with knowing, criticizing, manipulating and controlling every aspect of the private lives of others. That is why they are called anti-choice extremists.
But, PPC 12:24 PM, the REAL anti-choice extremists are those who end the private lives of others. If the life is public knowledge (inside a bulging belly), the anti-choice expression is not any less real nor any less extreme. That is why the REAL anti-choice extremists should be called anti-choice extremists.
I hate stupid abortionist hate rhetoric.
Bethany, regarding my wife, please see Hisman’s post of 10:126 a.m. Second sentence.
Hal, neither is your abortion history, but you still publish it to the world (including me) anyway.
You promised me that you would tell me the answer to my questions, and I consider you a fairly honest man- yet I haven’t heard the answers you assured me I would have yet. I think I’ve been fairly patient, don’t you? After all, the questions were asked 1 year ago.
He’s what i will tell you. She remains pro choice, supports pro-choice candiates. Gives money to pro choice groups.
Yes, that’s what you told me last time, but like I told you before, that isn’t an answer, as someone who votes pro-choice, and gives money to pro-choice groups could still be grieving. I believe Carla was still “pro-choice” for a very long time while she was grieving her abortion, before making it over to the pro-life side (correct me if I’m wrong, Carla).
You have never told me how she feels about the abortions, and to be completely honest, I don’t think it’s fair to her for you to publish to the world about her abortions without her knowledge or consent.
Especially since you won’t even mention her feelings on them, and you haven’t even asked her what her feelings are about the abortions- you just don’t talk to her about it. Those abortions weren’t all about you, Hal. She was part of the equation too.
Do you think that you are being fair to your wife in this, Hal? She is the one who had to have the abortions, not you. I’d like to hear from her perspective, how she felt about them.
Also, if you would be so kind as to please answer my 8:59 post, I would really appreciate it. I realize that it is a sensitive issue, but I have anticipated the answer to the question for a while now, because it does not make sense for you to grieve a miscarriage while simultaneously feeling nothing over an abortion. Either it is a loss or it isn’t. I am very curious to hear what your answer is to this very big question.
But, PPC 12:24 PM, the REAL anti-choice extremists are those who end the private lives of others.
Absolutely!
I advise against posting any identifying or personal information.
PPC, can you explain to me how exactly Hal posting how his anonymous wife *feels* after her abortion would help me to identify him? LOL That’s just absurd.
Bethany, you are partially right. I don’t think I should have mentioned our abortions on the internet. I don’t think it’s fair to her. I tried to do it in a way she would never be indentified. I won’t mention them again.
I’ve answered the questions I’m willing to answer.
If that doesn’t satisfy you, that’s cyberlife.
You’ll get over it.
you bug me for more information at the same time saying I’m being unfair to my wife by providing it. So what do you want?
Someday maybe we’ll sit down and have a cup of coffee and I’ll tell you my whole life story. For know, I’ll err on the side of caution.
So what do you want?
I don’t know- it might be nice to bring her here. Let her chat a little while.
You are correct, Bethany. For a long time I thought that if I had an abortion, it was right. Right? That if it was legal, it was right. Right?
Wrong and Wrong.
Carla, I’m sure that if she ever did come to this blog, she would find a good friend in you.
Hal:
I’m not sure, but it sounds like you’ve had a miscarriage in your family.
If that is the case, please accept my deepest condolences.
Yes, God is in control.
HisMan, thank you. It was many years ago.
Hal:
I’m sure it still hurts though.
The loss of life always brings pain. I miss my mom, my dad, my nephew, my brothers.
That’s why I’m so pro-life. I’m really trying to save people from suffering. I’m not interested in controlling their lives, which is impossible anyway.
To me, abortion is a short term solution to a problem and not having an abortion, while more difficult in the short term, is the right solution ultimatley resulting in a better outcome.
I just wonder how many woman are out there who decided not to have an abortion wish they had. I doubt that there are any.
Again, this life is not all there is and God is going to restore everything that was taken from us, including our loved ones, be they miscarried, aborted, whatever. That’s what I believe.
We could save ourselves a lot of grief if we just tried more to do things God’s way and not our own. I believe that’s the whole purpose of this site; to see life and death from God’s eternal perspective and not our temporal, immediate perspective.
I’m sorry, Bethany, but what you’re asking of Hal is really none of your business and I think that continuing to badger Hal and whine about it to him is making you look bad. I would be upset if I shared personal information somewhere and someone took that information, threw it back in my face, and then demanded additional, and more personal information from me.
I have not been reading this blog as long as Hal’s been posting here, but it sounds to me like Hal shared with its readers that he is pro-choice, that two of his babies have been aborted, and the effect those experiences have had on HIM. To demand more details than he is willing to share, and to demand his wife’s feelings about the matter, which she may not want to share, is inconsiderate.
I’m sorry if I sound mean, but I think as pro-lifers we should “take the high road,” so to speak, and let the actions and words that pro-choicers speak for their characters. I was surprised to see your posts because you usually seem to me to be so kind and level-headed.
Bee, the only one that sounded un-Bethany was where she said I was untrustworthy and she’s disappointed me. As I’m sure you know, this is a very emotional topic for many. Every time I say something pro-choice it really bothers people, and sometimes I provoke a bit. I can over look a bit of frustration.
I really shouldn’t have said anything. Her posts were starting to make me uncomfortable, is all.
And really the only post that made me uncomfortable was where she said that your unwillingness to share someone else’s personal experience made you untrustworthy.
Sorry.
I have much love and care in my heart for Hal’s wife whether she regrets her abortions or not. As well as Hal. Even though you say you do not regret it either. Fair enough.
Hal, you have always been kind and hardly get your feathers ruffled and I think Bethany just wanted to prod you a bit, not to hurt but to understand. I am sure you would tell us all where to go, iffen you had had enough. But here we are.
Please know that from the bottom of my heart I am there for both you and your wife in any way I can be if you should ever need to talk. That goes for a lot of us here, I am sure. :) We care.
Hi Bee,
For those willing to speak about their life experience we can learn a lot about each other. I am sorry you were uncomfortable. No worries.
You’re so sweet, Carla.
:)
Bee, I’m very sorry that I made you feel uncomfortable. I am.
I really like you, and I like Hal too, and was not trying to hurt him.
I wanted to make a point to him about abortion that many of us can see but he can’t seem to bring himself to acknowledge.
Carla is right – I was prodding him to hopefully get him to understand- and to remind him that abortion isn’t as glorious as he makes it out to be.
And I’m sorry that I made it seem like I think that Hal should share personal information if he doesn’t want to. I honestly don’t think he should. What purpose does he come to a pro-life blog, and brag about his abortions?
Bee, I know you are a very understanding person… do you see how this could be hurtful for us, especially when it is heard about on a continual basis? Especially with those of us who miscarried and actually CARE about the child we lost? Or for people like Carla who have had abortions and regret them deeply?
Then we hear him bragging about how much he loves the doctor who killed his babies. That hurts. Deep. It implies so many horrible things without even having to say it outright- the main one being- “your child was worthless”.
I was disappointed that he broke a promise, but not that he doesn’t want to share personal information online. I know I didn’t make that very clear, and I’m sorry that I made it sound different than I intended. If he doesn’t want to talk about it, that’s okay. But just stop with the bragging about the abortions, that’s all I basically ask.
I wanted to bring home the point, and remind him of his wife, so that he could remember that it isn’t all about him, and his feelings about abortion. Maybe she really misses her babies, like she misses the one they lost through miscarriage.
I feel for her.
Bee, for you, Hal, and for others who may have felt uncomfortable by my post, I removed it. And I apologize for having said it. I was out of line.
*peeks back*
How is everyone?
I’ve been busy, school and work has kinda eaten my life and my laptop went to go meet her techno-Maker, unless I somehow manage to afford a new motherboard for her. Otherwise, just been busy! How about everybody else? Anything earthshattering that I missed?
Sorry, Bethany and Hal. I probably just should have kept my mouth shut.
Bee, I know you are a very understanding person… do you see how this could be hurtful for us, especially when it is heard about on a continual basis? Especially with those of us who miscarried and actually CARE about the child we lost? Or for people like Carla who have had abortions and regret them deeply?
I understand what you’re saying, Bethany. I just think maybe saying exactly that to Hal, instead of getting kind of passive-aggresive about him answering your question, would have been clearer.
Probably would have been better, Bee. I’ll try to do better next time.
I was just trying to post that different people have different experiences. I will (and have) stopped “bragging about” my abortions. In fact, this is the last post where I will refer to them at all.
But don’t worry, I’m not going away.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen Hal brag about his wife’s abortions, but I’ve only been here since last winter.
He acknowledges them in a very matter-of-fact way, and often uses language that makes very clear the fact that he does not regret either of them. I think he has every right to share that, even if it hurts people who are upset over their own abortions or miscarriages. The whole point is that we are all different people, with extremely different feelings on this subject. One person not being upset over a miscarriage doesn’t have any bearing on anyone else’s experiences.
The whole point is that we are all different people, with extremely different feelings on this subject. One person not being upset over a miscarriage doesn’t have any bearing on anyone else’s experiences.
I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t think that is quite the point of this pro-life blog, Alexandra.
We do tolerate it in small doses, because it’s inevitable, but it is certainly not ‘the point’.
Other abortion debate forums, maybe. But not this one. This isn’t the “I’m Not Sorry” site, know what I mean? .
I do know what you mean Bethany.
I don’t think many of us viewed this site as some sort of support network for those who have suffered loss or feel regret. If it is that, then certainly I was out of line. I viewed it more as a blog where Jill advanced her pro-life agenda and welcomed comments and discussions of the issues. Some comments support her views, other disagreed or challenged.
Bethany, you have shared more personal information than most of us, and I admire that. For you, obviously, these are not abstract discussions. (for many of us actually) Although I don’t think I have been bragging, as outlined above, you’ll find me easier to tolerate in the future.
Hal, I appreciate your thoughts…thank you.
I understand, Bethany. I view this blog as dealing more with the political than the personal, but I will keep that in mind in the future to avoid offending anybody if/when sharing my feelings or experiences.
Hi Erin,
Good to hear from you again :)
Erin,
You may not believe this this but Rae and Amanda both left the blog….but then they came back…and then they left again,…and then they came back…..and then they left again for good….and then they came back….
You can grow up at aaaaaaaaaanytime there “Truthseeker”.
ok Rae
Alexandra,
I relate to people on a personal level. That’s just me. I love hearing stories from people’s lives and get to know a bit about them. I find facts, figures, stats and studies to be booorrrriiiiinnng!!
I would so appreciate another good A Day In The Life of Alexandra story. I am still smiling about the flat, the rain, the bees and the sweatshirt contest you have going with yourself.
Boooorrrriiiinnnnggg but useful.
Doug, why did NO other democrat except Obama have a problem with the wording of the bill?
Bethany, back a month or so there was a discussion of Obama’s votes, and Jill linked to the text of the debate, and Obama gave his objections, and then it was not like he was the only one voting against the IL bills.
…….
It makes me feel a little bit better that you seem to be bothered by the story of the babies being left on shelves to die. I hate the fact that so many here don’t seem to have a problem with it. How can anyone imagine a little helpless baby dying on a shelf alone, and feel anything but sadness?
B, I don’t think that “so many here have no problem with it.” Agreed that it’s a very sad thought. And I imagine that Obama would agree, and support legislation aimed at preventing that, as long as it wasn’t a sly try at chipping away at abortion rights.
Moreover, I don’t see why the “BAIPA” was necessary in the first place. The 14th Amendment to the Constitution says, “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”
What, really, beyond that is necessary for the protection of born babies?
Doug @8:52,
Roe v.Wade took away the personhood of an unborn baby, making abortion legal and rendering the 14th amendment inapplicable to aborted babies. BAIPA would protect babies who are born alive from being killed to complete the “abortion”.
Does it make sense to you that the baby who survives an abortion should be allowed to live? If you say, “Yes”, you should be in favor of BAIPA.
BAIPA protects the baby from doctors and mothers who want to kill these born babies….
Janet,
What you are saying makes sense.
truthseeker @ 2:33,
Janet, What you are saying makes sense.
Finally!
What, really, beyond that is necessary for the protection of born babies?
Doug, OBVIOUSLY, something is needed to protect them, because under the 14th amendment, they WERE being willingly killed despite the fact that the amendment clearly says it is unlawful. They obviously needed something extra to protect them.
Without a doubt, that part of the constitution SHOULD be enough, but it apparently wasn’t, or Jill never would have had to hold a live US citizen in her arms till it died! That baby would have been treated and possibly could be still alive today!
Janet, very well written post at 9:56. It’s common sense!
Roe v.Wade took away the personhood of an unborn baby
Nope, Janet. That’s just not true.
Does it make sense to you that the baby who survives an abortion should be allowed to live? If you say, “Yes”, you should be in favor of BAIPA.
Janet, yes and yes. If the law isn’t aimed at also trying to chip away at abortion rights then I’m for it, same as Obama.
I think it’s largely a moot point, there, now, since D & X abortions are prohibited, so where would there be any babies surviving an attempt at abortion?
Doug, OBVIOUSLY, something is needed to protect them, because under the 14th amendment, they WERE being willingly killed despite the fact that the amendment clearly says it is unlawful. They obviously needed something extra to protect them.
Bethany, they weren’t “being killed under the 14th Amendment.” This parallels the immigration situation, IMO. So many people seem to think that we need new laws for such-and-such, yet if the existing laws were enforced, it would already take care of most of what people perceive to be the problem.
With BAIPA – if the law of the land, the Constitution, wasn’t ensuring that babies would be cared for, why would BAIPA be any different?
I guess I could have worded my post better. It’s not a new law, Doug…The Born Alive Infants Protection act codified the already existing law.
Jill helped clarify for me:
“It codified existing law because the line of demarcation where abortion ended had become unclear”
Okay, good explanation, Bethany and Jill.