Weekend question II
Pro-life/anti-life news didn’t stop yesterday, even though I wasn’t around to report it. Imagine that.
So I’m offering an extra weekend question to play a little catch-up.
Oklahoma legislators recently passed a comprehensive pro-life law ensuring mothers are not coerced to abort by forcing abortion mills to post signage; ensuring health care professionals are not coerced to abort or recommend to abort; forcing abortionists to follow FDA guidelines when administering RU-486; and forcing abortionists to provide ultrasounds before abortions….
Thursday pro-aborts filed a lawsuit challenging the law on many counts. For instance, the Center for Reproductive Rights told the court forcing abortionists to follow FDA guidelines for administering RU-486 will cause them to “cease performing medical abortions… rather than risking criminal conviction, civil liability and licensure penalties.”
But it is the ultrasound portion that has them most riled. 3 other states have laws mandating ultrasounds before abortions, but OK is the first to say the abortionist must turn the screen toward the aborting mother and explain what s/he sees, although the law stipulates mothers may remain purposefully ignorant by averting their eyes.
But pro-aborts state making the abortionist rather than an LPN (1 rung below RN) perform the abortion would stop them from “meet[ing] the demand for abortions” so they “might not be able to remain in business,” according to the petition.
The Center also maintains “the requirement intrudes on privacy, endangers health and assaults the dignity of women,” according to the Associated Press.
Exactly how does OK’s ultrasound law intrude on privacy, endanger health, and assault the dignity of women? What’s so wrong with informed consent?
[HT: reader Charles C.]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Well, when presented with undeniable proof that they are paying to have their child murdered, it tends to have an emotional impact on a person.
I guess it’s an assault against the woman’s dignity if you believe that ignorance=dignity.
OBAMA STORIES FOR KIDS #3 – Barack and Abortion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA-EU72Sp0A
Bless you and the work you are doing, Jill.
The law requires even rape and incest victims to listen as the doctor describes the fetus, even if they don’t want to know.
It’s OK, though. The Freedom of Choice Act will take care of it.
Reality,
No matter who the father is or the circumstances surrounding the conception, the pregnant woman is no more or less the childs mother.
So realit when your mother was prengnant with you what species of embryo/fetus was resident in her uterus?
yor bro ken
Reality,
Just want to make sure you and the o’bama are on the same page.
With or without precision with respect to science and/or theology when your mama was pregnant with you what species of embryo/fetus was resident in her uterus?
You do not have answer correctly, just be honest, even if you are wrong.
yor bro ken
Reality,
You just cannot do it, can you? Silence is your only refuge.
Not in the ‘choice’ speaking points, is it?
I first heard fifteen year old young lady ask that question. Wish I knew her name so I could give her credit for the wisdom.
yor bro ken
Reality,
I read in a book somewhere that living things humans, mamals, birds, reptiles, fish, plants, even bacteria only reproduce what they are.
Humans, can manipulate things a little, but the rule seems to hold.
Thought you might need some help.
yor bro ken
Hello goooooooood buddies. Got your eyes in?
Reality,
You could try answering a question with a question. The narratives in the new testament seem to indicate that worked OK for Jesus when people asked him questions designed to entrap him.
Ask HIM, maybe HE will give you the question to ask. Caution: HE may answer the first question in the process and the answer may affirm you or it might offend you. But it will be truth.
Many rape victims don’t chose to abort. Some chose to give life and perhaps place their child for adoption. Barely 1% of abortions are done for rape or incest.
And its a fact that more women CHOSE LIFE if they see the little person on the ultrasound screen. Then the abortionist loses out on $$$$$ because the woman says “No, I don’t want an abortion now,”
Then she most likely receives financial assistance from passionate pro lifers. I know that my local right to life group helped a young woman out with rent and someone even fixed her car so she could get to her job.
I’ve never heard of a human giving birth to a dog or a cat before……and tissue is made at factories, so its a human being inside their wombs, not tissue or a blood clot. A Real life human being with a heart beat and a body with a head and little arms and little legs.
Liz,
I keep asking that question and either I get insults or no response or a non-response from people who do not like the obvious answer.
yor bro ken
Reality,
The law requires even rape and incest victims to listen as the doctor describes the [human] fetus, even if they don’t want to know.
It’s OK, though. The Freedom of Choice Act will take care of it.
————————————————-
That is why they call it ‘informed consent’ and that is why the law requires it for all other elective surgical procedure.
Which brings up another question: Why should taxpayers be required to fund elective surgical procedures? Unless you classify pregnancy as a sexually transmitted disease, then taxpayers are funding health care for women who are not ill. Isn’ that some sort of fraud?
kbhvac,
“I read in a book somewhere that living things humans, mamals, birds, reptiles, fish, plants, even bacteria only reproduce what they are.”
Yes. In fact, this is the scientific law of biogenesis. So I suppose anyone who doesn’t believe it could be accused of “replacing medically and scientifically accurate information with ideology”? Isn’t there an organization that’s always accusing us of doing that? Hmmm…
Exactly how does OK’s ultrasound law intrude on privacy, endanger health, and assault the dignity of women? What’s so wrong with informed consent?
The fault is not so much the ultrasound law’s intrusion as it is its occasional failure to prevent intrusion into one of a woman’s private parts.
The fault is not so much in the ultrasound law’s endangering the health of a woman as it is in the law’s occasional failure to assure the health of her child.
The fault is not so much in the ultrasound law’s assault on the dignity of a woman as it is in the law’s occasional failure to prevent the violence of an induced abortion.
What’s so wrong with informed consent? The consent part is so wrong. The ultrasound law sometimes still results in the mother’s consent to kill her child.
That is to say, the ultrasound law is a very good thing. Complete prohibition of induced abortion, of course, is even better.
Texas/OU,
Just completed first half. OU is leading 21-20.
Great game.
Just saw a VW commercial.
‘Don’t put a baby in your belly just to prove how safe German engineering makes VW’s.’
Just can’t escapte the obvious, can you Reality?
yor bro ken
“‘Don’t put a baby in your belly just to prove how safe German engineering makes VW’s.'”
How DARE they not use the medically and scientifically accurate terminology of “fetus”! How dare they even begin to imply the humanity of the unborn! This is blasphemy of the highest order!
BEHOLD!!! The OCTOBER Suprise!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyspCRmJv7w
This is it Everybody!! Get On Board!!! Spread It Far and Wide!!!
Obama May be indeed Finished!!!
Goodbye Obama!!!
Here is the VW Routan Boom commercials
‘Don’t put a baby in your belly just to put German engineering in your driveway.No matter how bad you want it.’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es3qoCu29-c&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDZSxFLcMVg&feature=related
BEHOLD!!! The OCTOBER Suprise!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyspCRmJv7w
This is it Everybody!! Get On Board!!! Spread It Far and Wide!!!
Obama May be indeed Finished!!!
Goodbye Obama!!!
Blog it! Blog it! Blog it!
Spread Far and Wide!!!!!
People Need to Know!!!!
James,
watched the video. Mr. Berg raises interesting questions. Hopefully courts will resolve primary issue before election day.
I still contend o’bama is Irish. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
yor bro ken
Please Blog the Video Far and Wide kbhvac.
Euphemism: Center for Reproductive Rights.
You would think with a name such as this the organization would be representing men and women in Communist China where the government limits and prohibits reproduction. Or a country like Russia where the birth rate is so low they are they are enticing people to reproduce by establishing a federal holiday for procreation. If enticements don’t work perhaps people will be penalized for failing to produce fodder for the state.
After analysis and translation with defibilator: Center for Absolute Right to a Dead Baby
“yor bro ken”
Posted by: kbhvac at October 11, 2008 1:21 PM
Is there a hidden meaning beyond the obvious that your first name is Ken? Just curious.
Funny how an ultrasound only assaults the dignity of a woman who wants an abortion…any other mommy and daddy proudly display them on their refrigerators across the land.
James-
Of course, because eligibility wasn’t required during his run for senate, or his run in the primaries, or to prove eligibility so he could be placed on the national ballot in the first place.
If Obama is indeed Irish it’s just one more reason to vote for him!
Janet,
We are all broken. All of creation is flawed. Crying out for redemption. Looking for the sons (gender neutral term) of God to announce the eminent liberation and the soon return of the Liberator, The Son of GOD, first born among many brethren (gender neutral term, no one is left out. Salvation is available to all.) Oops I am a little pumped up. Texas just regained the lead over OU.
Mo,
Not that there is anything right with that.
yor bro ken
kbhvac,
Ya know, it’s funny. You mentioned euphemisms above. I’m currently reading “The War on Choice” by Gloria Feldt (former President of PPFA), and she spends numerous pages complaining about how the “anti-choicers” have made up a non-medical term in the phrase “partial-birth abortion.” The former president of Planned Parenthood complains that pro-lifers use a euphemism. Let me repeat that.
The former president of Planned Parenthood complains that pro-lifers use a euphemism.
It’s almost comical how well it fits the definition of irony. Never once has she addressed what “so-called partial birth abortion” actually is, but she spends plenty of time talking about how that isn’t the right phrase. Never mind what it is, we aren’t using the right phrase. The entire abortion-rights movement is built on a rock solid foundation of semantics.
“Is there a hidden meaning beyond the obvious that your first name is Ken?”
Oh, I just got it! Wow am I slow…
MO,
I mean we vote for the person who best represents our values, right? I mean it would be kind of shallow to vote for or against someone because of gender or ethnicity, wouldn’t it?
yor bro ken
Bobby-
I got a book for free on Campus from some Christian group on Campus you might want to check out. It’s geared towards teens/college students. It’s called Jesus Without Religion by Rick James
Fairly good so far. You can get it from the publisher for about $10. It’s only 100 something pages I think though. I’m about halfway through or so.
Bobby-
Here’s a link to the publisher that has excerpts and the text from the back cover:
http://www.ivpress.com/likewisebooks/book.php?code=3607
If you are college football fan, this Texas/OU game in Dallas should not be missed. OU came in ranked #1 and Texas #5.
Texas just went up by 10, 45-36. 3:12 to go 4th qtr. Mulitple lead changes, fake punts, kick returned for td, fumbles, interceptions, long runs from scrimmage, great passing.
Bobby and Janet
yor bro ken
your brother kenneth
Bobby Bambino at October 11, 2008 2:15 PM
Jesus calls it straining out the gnat and swallowing the camel.
We all do it in one way or another to justify the unruliness in our own hearts.
A lady I know whose son died of AIDS said that she believed most christians turned their nose up at homosexuality because they believed that it was a sin they would never commit. Human nature (sin nature) wants to be find someone who is ‘less’ than we are to kick around so we can feel better about ourselves. I am so broken I need a savior all the time, 24/7.
Everytime I come across someone who I believe has their act together, eventually demonstrates to me that they don’t. We all need a Savior. We all need forgiveness.
Here are a couple of my favorite passages because they reminds me I qualify because HE qualifies me for salvation:
For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, and the base things of the world and the despised, God has chosen, the things that are not, that He might nullify the things that are, that no man should boast before God. But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
“For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of slavery,… Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;…
That’s interesting, Dan. So it’s published by IVP, which is a publishing company I know and trust for the most part, so I’m quite intrigued because at the same time, I don’t agree with the title. But very good.
Oh, that’s beautiful, Ken. Ya know, my arrogance and feelings of superiority towards others often comes up in ways that I don’t even see, and the Lord always humbles me and reminds me who He is and who I am, and that anything that “I” do that I have to be proud of is really a gift from Him. Very humbling.
BTW, are you in any way involved with H.V.A.C?
Bobby Bambino at October 11, 2008 3:31 PM
Some people might say I wreak havoc.
Yeah, Heating Ventilation Air Conditioning.
I tried to be self employed more than once. I am thinking that is pretty much a dead end or cul de sac as far as my career path is concerned. I am presently an hourly employee. I work for a commercial a/c contractor, but my heart, and it seems my mind, is just not in it any more.
I do not know how much personal detail I should publicize here. Some poor soul might try to steal my identity and then I would feel bad because of what that would do to THEIR reputation.
So where are you going to school?
Ah very cool. When I worked as a draftsman at an Engineering firm, I worked with some mechanical engineers. I got to go with them to buildings that were going to have a lot of duct work done and write down measurements etc. and then draw up their current hvac plans. That was a lot of fun and it made me consider becoming a mechanical engineer, but alas, that was a no go. I’m currently a graduate student at Dartmouth College.
Dartmouth.
That is not a large school, but it has been around a while and commands some respect, doesn’t it? So are still studying engineering?
Exactly how does OK’s ultrasound law intrude on privacy, endanger health, and assault the dignity of women? What’s so wrong with informed consent?
Maybe the amount of time thinking about the decision is directly proportional to the post-abortion effects on the woman?
It’s a very small school, only about 4000 I believe. I think it was founded in 1769. No, I actually never started studying engineering. I’m a mathematics major, which some would argue has something to do with engineering :)
Bobby-
For the implication the Bible gives, James believes for the whole story of Jesus there needs to be plenty of context aka back to the Bible. Essentially it seems (so far) to be explaining Jesus and His story without the influence of any sect, or at least this is the attempt I think. I don’t know if it’s true or not as the only experience I have within the umbrella of Christianity is pretty much just Catholicism
oh wow, I really am tired, and its not even 8 o clock yet.
Forgive me, I combined two thoughts while typing, the first Bible ought to be “title”
An expert on terrorism is warning the United States should be fighting
Islamization, which she believes already is under way. And author Brigitte
Gabriel should know: She watched it happen in her native Lebanon.
“Lebanon used to be the only majority Christian country in the Middle East,”
Gabriel told radio talk show host Andrea Shea King in a recent hour-long
interview “Most people today do not know that. We were the majority, the
Muslims were the minority, but as the years went by, the Muslims became the
majority because of their birth rate, but also because of our open-border
policy. … http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=76936
Obama is part of the plan.
MO,
I mean we vote for the person who best represents our values, right? I mean it would be kind of shallow to vote for or against someone because of gender or ethnicity, wouldn’t it?
yor bro ke
I was already voting for Obama because he is the candidate that best represents my anti-war values, which is a higher priority to me than abortion.
You pointing out that he is Irish like me is just an added bonus.
:D
MO,
I mean we vote for the person who best represents our values, right? I mean it would be kind of shallow to vote for or against someone because of gender or ethnicity, wouldn’t it?
yor bro ke
I was already voting for Obama because he is the candidate that best represents my anti-war values, which is a higher priority to me than abortion.
You pointing out that he is Irish like me is just an added bonus.
:D
HisMan, stick to religious ramblings, your politics are misguided and offensive.
WND? really? “Obama is part of the plan?” really?
It’s not patriotic to libel the next President. Join you pal McCain and admit Obama is a decent guy and we have nothing to fear from his presidency. Can you do the decent thing?
Bobby Bambino at October 11, 2008 6:17 PM
You have my respect. I was never much of a scholar. I scored really well on the math portions the achievement tests we took each year, but I did not do well in class. I could handle geometry, but when I got to algebra, I was out of my element.
I saw the photo of you and your daughter. She is a cutie.
My wife and I have five children, four daughters and a son. Four of them are in college this semester. We are not mormon or catholic. No twins. I was 32 when we got married. We had 5 children in about 7 years. When people give us that funny look, my wife says we did not have a TV. Our youngest daughter will graduate in about 2 years. They are all still at home. We have homeschooled all of them. They seem to be doing well at both their jobs and at school. All our children have a relationship with the LORD. They are all unique. We have not tried to teach them what to think, but how to think independently and analytically. They have all had some challenges in their faith. They all seem to have survived the tests. They are now walking in their own faith and knowledge of the LORD. They have all attracted good friends. Homeschooling really facilitates relationships. I hope to live to see all of them married and with children of their own.
I see you are listed as one the ‘moderators’. How does that work? Do you have a shift that you are responsible for?
yor bro ken
Hello Hal,
How yall are?
yor bro ken
The freedom to be informed also includes the freedom not to be informed. It should be as simple and as burdon free as possible. The law assumes the complete ignorance of the woman AND it assumes that she has the desire to know the nuts and bolts of a routine medical procedure. I hope to God there is a rape exception and I hope this gets challenged in court. Anti-choice activists should not be using medical professionals as their mouthpieces. Whats next, a waiting period on getting a root canal?
You know when my wife was pregnant, all five times, the doctor was required to tell all the risks associated with carrying the child to a 40 week live birth. I was there for most of those examinations and he never used the term embryo/fetus. We lost one child to spontaneous miscarriage. The doctor never used the term embryo/fetus then. (He was not particularly prolife. He just did not care for the messy business of elective abortion.) He was required to inform my wife that at her age, the human embyo/fetus in her womb was at increased risk for congenital abnormalities. As part of her prenatal care my wife had scheduled sonograms.
I had some good conversations with the sonographer. She was required to be somewhat of a mind reader. If the pregnant woman was considering ending the pregnancy, then the sonographer had to use medical lingo to refer to the contents of the uterus, but if the woman was going to carry the child to birth, then she could use non-medical lingo.
I never had a conversation like that with dentist or a dental hygenist or a dental assistant when I was considering a tooth extraction or a root canal. I mean I like my teeth but I am not in any moral quandry about the rightness or wrongness of having one removed. There was no sense of loss when my baby teeth came out.
So yo la tango when your mother was pregnant with you, what species of embryo\fetus was resident in her uterus?
When you lost a baby tooth did you hold a wake?
Go to grief counseling?
yo la tango
‘denial’
that is the word. We have to guarantee women considering killing their prenatal child ‘denial’. Avert your eyes, stop your ears, shut down your brain and go to your happy place. This is not real. I was never pregant.
That sounds like a good way to go through life. Sounds like a good way to run a country or a business. Succes is guaranteed.
There was a country and western singer named Ronnie Millsap who was blind from birth. He sounded a lot like Ray Charles. Some DJ at a Motown station invited him to come down to the studio for a live on air interview. Millsapa agent drove him to the interview. When the DJ say Millsap, he took the manager aside and said, ‘He’s white.’
The manager said, ‘Don’t say that too loud, Ronnie doesn’t know.’
Why do so many people choose to remain ignorant?
They do not want to jeopardize their bliss.
Hal, don’t be so smug. The election hasn’t occurred yet except in your mind.
And frankly, I’d be very worried about your mental state if McCain won.
This too, don’t ever tell me what to say or what to think or question my patriotism ever again.
HisMan-
Should Obama become president can we expect you to adamantly attack those who criticize him like you do for those who attack Bush? Will you also call criticizing him unpatriotic as you have said about attacking bush?
Or will dissent suddenly be patriotic for the Right, at least for four years?
HisMan, my mental state would survive McCain, he’s no worse than Bush. And with Palin the VP, I might actually have to start praying for McCain’s health.
This too, I don’t think your irrational hatred of Obama is good for your blood pressure
HisMan, can you live up to McCain’s example?
John McCain on Friday moved to calm rising anger among his supporters at rival Barack Obama, describing him as a “decent person and a person that you do not have to be scared of as president of the United States.”
” We had 5 children in about 7 years. When people give us that funny look, my wife says we did not have a TV. Our youngest daughter will graduate in about 2 years. They are all still at home. We have homeschooled all of them. They seem to be doing well at both their jobs and at school. All our children have a relationship with the LORD.”
lol… that’s wonderful!
Hal,
I have to confess when Ronald Reagan was president I did get pretty excited when he spoke. He made me feel good about the USA and he made me feel hopeful about the future. I was younger then, but I trusted him to do what he felt was best for the country, not for his legacy, or his party, but the country.
Looking back I can see where my emotions may have over ruled my reason at times. That happens sometimes with us humans.
When Ronald Reagan passed away I was pleasantly surprised at the public show of respect for this man. This was not organized. I believe it was spontaneous. I remember seeing the aerial shots of people lining the overpasses and the road sides in California to get a glimpse of the hearse carrying his body as it was passing by. Adults brought their children who had not yet been born when Reagan was in the White House. That was genuine, nothing staged or choreographed about it.
While Reagan was still in office I met and interacted with people in Washington State who hated, despised, and reviled him. I could not understand their response.
Then I endured eight years of Bill Clinton. I can honestly say I did not hate him, but I would have had to struggle to make myself revive him if I had found him blue and no pulse and no respiration. Bill Clinton is the classic self absorbed narcicist. He was all about Bill all the time.
I hope Bill Clinton lives a long, long time. I hope he finds peace with God and with himself and he enjoys his grandchildren and great granchildren. He may have already found peace.
But I hope I outlive him, because I want to see the response of the american people to his passing. I want to see the response of the people of Arkansas.
Somewhere it is written that God honors those who honor HIM. That might explain some of the outpouring of honor and respect for Ronald Reagan. It will be interesting to wait and see what Bill Clinton’s legacy really is.
I imagine there will be a spontaneous outpouring of grief and respect for President Clinton when he passes.
I know I sure would appreciate some of that Clinton budget surplus again.
Hal,
Do you believe that Bill Clinton is primarily responsible for the budget surplus? Do you believe the subsequent presidents are primarily responsible for the budget deficit? I mean the president can only do so much by himself. There is the legislative branch that controls the purse strings. We can really spread the blame around there, both sides of the aisle and even Bernie Sanders the Independent Socialist can not escape unscathed.
I dont even think it was one congress Ken, I think it goes through history and has far too many factors to adequately lay blame on anyone really.
It isn’t only the financial, though, Hal. It was the feeling that adults were in charge, and that we were progressing as a country. We saw lots of racism and sexism and other bigoted behaviors become socially unacceptable. Interracial marriage and the offspring thereof, gays living openly and without fear, and much of the antiquated infrastructure and bureaucracy that had kept people on welfare roles tumbled down. And we at least had a conversation about universal healthcare.
Viva la Clinton era and ethos!
You know I find more fault with the republicans than the democrats. I expect democrats to do like they have done as long as I have been an adult. But the republicans (I am generalizing here) have joined the non light reflecting side. (Boy that sounds worse than dark side.) Some of the republicans held the line for little while on the bailout/rescue plan, then they caved and joined in the pork fest. This is a bunch of self serving bovine scatulation.
“You know I find more fault with the republicans than the democrats.”
Of course, we all do.
Hal,
As a recovering republican, who now enjoys his independence, I can appreciate your perspective. I just can’t reach the same conclusion you do about mr. o’bama.
I see little relief there. The only positive I can see if o’bama is elected is that we show the world we elected someone who is not cauacasian as president.
Before I stopped my partying ways I once thought John Denver would make a great president. But then I sobered up. The girls/boys all get prettier at closin time, but the next morning they can be coyote ugly, figureatively speaking of course.
yor bro ken
are you sober now, cause you’ve lost me with the John Denver reference.
Please, please pass this on.
As a Christian, the ability to use our free speech rights to proclaim the Gospel are being diminished in this country every day. Do not be deceived. This is a direct attempt ny the enemy at muzzling the Gospel. Jesus said this: “If you deny me before men I will deny you before my Father in Heaven”. Persaonlly, I never want to hear words of denial from the Savior I love.
Do not be afraid, speak up against this abomination while you are still able.
Read the story below and then go to the following website to tell Governor Kaine what you think of his actions to ban the use of Jesus Christ in prayer:
And note this too. Governor Kaine is a major Obama supporter and if Obama is elected, this is just the tip of the iceberg as to what will happen to religious freedom in this country.
http://www.governor.virginia.gov/AboutTheGovernor/contactGovernor.cfm
(c) 2008 WorldNetDaily
Gov. Timothy Kaine of Virginia has affirmed his support for a new statewide
policy under which state troopers serving as chaplains will not be allowed
to pray “in Jesus name,” explaining that he can pray “without mentioning
Jesus.”
“I would never do anything to inhibit anybody’s religious worship. It
doesn’t diminish my ability to worship my God, to pray to the Father or the
Lord without mentioning Jesus Christ,” he said.
As a result, a coalition of pastors from a wide range of Christian groups
and church denominations across the state is planning a rally Nov. 1, just
three days before the fall elections, to protest the move that resulted in
the resignations of six of the state’s 17 trooper chaplains.
The “Stand Up For Jesus” rally is set for Nov. 1 at 10 a.m. at the Capitol
Square Bell Tower in Richmond, “within earshot of the governor’s mansion,”
according to former Navy Chaplain Gordon Klingenschmitt, who fought a battle
with the U.S. military over the issue and lost his career as a result. He
later won a victory in Congress allowing other chaplains to pray as their
conscience dictates.
WND reported
earlier when the pastors wrote to Kaine
seeking a change in the policy that suddenly was announced by Col. W. Steven
Flaherty to chaplains. The dispute became public through the work of Charles
W. Carrico Sr., a member of Virginia’s House of Delegates, a former trooper.
(In a GodTube video, Kaine indicates there should be no problem for
Christian chaplains, because he can pray without any mention of Jesus’ name.
In his written response to the pastors, Kaine said, “It is important for
state employees to be sensitive to the entire population who would attend
such events.”
“Most of the members of the chaplaincy program understand this guidance from
the leadership and accept it. I am very sorry that some members feel that
this rule about the public ceremonies is unacceptable,” he continued.
The governor also chided the pastors for mentioning the words “liberals,”
“atheists” and “homosexuals.”
“I did note that the attachments to your letter contained some extraneous
references to energizing voters before November 4 and disparaging comments
about ‘liberals,’ ‘atheists’ and ‘homosexuals.’ I take matters of faith and
religious liberty very seriously and am offended when people attempt to
inflame passions about these sacred matters for political ends,” he wrote.
Klingenschmitt said information he sent to pastors noted that several
“‘churches’ with offensive names” had signed onto the effort seeking the
reinstatement of the chaplains. “Unfortunately, a group of atheists and
homosexuals are signing the pledge to combat our efforts and confuse
pastors,” he advised.
Besides misunderstanding that information, Klingenschmitt said the governor
also made a number of misstatements in his letter, including his claim that,
“No one lost their jobs.”
“Six chaplains lost their jobs as chaplains, having effectively ‘turned in
their chaplain badge’ in protest over the governor’s ‘non-sectarian’ prayer
policy,” Klingenschmitt said. “They are no longer permitted to perform
chaplain duties, until they comply with the prayer policy and get
reinstated.”
Klingenschmitt said the chaplains “were given direct verbal orders to stop
praying ‘in Jesus name’ … [and] faced with a choice between disobeying
orders and violating their conscience by publicly denying the name of Jesus
Christ, they resigned.”
That’s exactly what persecution is, he continued.
The governor’s response was “degrading and insulting to me, to the
chaplains, to the 86 pastors, and to our faith,” Klingenschmitt said.
“In response, I am organization a statewide prayer rally, entitled
‘Virginia, Stand Up For Jesus’ on November 1st at Capitol square Bell
Tower,” he said. “We the people of Virginia will assemble to pray in Jesus
name, even in public, the very act of prayer these chaplains are forbidden
to do by Governor Kaine.”
“The bottom line is these chaplains were given a choice between disobeying
orders and violating their conscience, so they resigned as heroes who stood
up for Jesus,” he said.
Klingenschmitt, whose battle with the
military over his use of the phrase remains in court where he’s seeking
reinstatement, said he “cannot believe we live in a society where government
officials literally dictate the content of a chaplain’s prayers and dare to
punish or exclude chaplains who pray ‘in Jesus name.'”
State officials said they were worried about future lawsuits because of an
appeals court
opinion written by former Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O’Connor, who
said discriminating against anyone who prays “in Jesus name” among officials
rotating responsibilities to open city meetings is fair and reasonable.
That dispute
focused on Rev. Hashmel Turner, a resident of Fredericksburg, Va., and a
member of the town council, who was a part of a rotation of council members
who prayed at the council meetings. He ended his prayers “in Jesus name.”
That phrase, however, offended a listener, who prompted the involvement of
several activist groups that threatened a lawsuit if the elected Christian
council member continued to be allowed to pray “in Jesus name.”
The city then adopted a non-sectarian prayer requirement, censoring Turner
and imposing a ban on any reference to “Jesus.”
O’Connor wrote: “The restriction that prayers be nonsectarian in nature is
designed to make the prayers accessible to people who come from a variety of
backgrounds, not to exclude or disparage a particular faith.”
Klingenschmitt noted, “Ironically, she admitted Turner was excluded from
participating solely because of the Christian content of his prayer. The
Fredericksburg government violated everybody’s rights by establishing a
nonsectarian religion, and requiring all prayers conform, or face punishment
of exclusion.”
Hal,
You and I might find more fault with the republicans concerning this financial mess, but not everbody else does.
If you happen to speak to the ONE who gives us breath, tell HIM I said hello and I would like to hear from HIM too.
buenos noches
yor bro ken
John Denver? October Surprise..(oh heaven help us that anyone cares about that video). No wonder all the poll show that not only do women, minorities but ALL EDUCATED INDIVIDUALS support B.Obama… because the folks on this website cannot be intellectual… I think you are grasping at straws here…
Stick with just abortion.. because, all the other arguements are useless.. The republican party has become a corrupt group of non-CHRIST like thinkers… May your souls someday see that your blinding yourself from caring about people….
Why don’t you stay out of other people’s business. This is clearly a choice between a woman/girl and her doctor. Unless you are personally stepping up and offering to adopt a specific child, it is none of your business. Please be Christian in the true sense of the word, stop judging and show compassion.
Shame on you Governor Kaine. No wonder Obama liked you.
HisMan,, and Jasper, I’d feel better if they just got rid of all the chaplains. Living off public money like that, they should be ashamed, and get a real job.
It’s not about denial – I frankly don’t think that there is anything to deny at all. Much like a root-canal, you just gotta suck it out and get done with it.
Here’s a deal. You don’t insist that there is some God creature that is going to fry my wife\girlfriend etc when and if she chooses to get an abortion and I won’t laugh my ass off on Christmas and Easter when you (respectivly) celebrate the birth and death of Jesus by maxing out your credit cards and making a big deal about the lack of Christmas wishes from aged cashiers and greeters at Wal-Mart or Target. I think it’s a pretty good deal, and generous at that.
I get so tired of the pro death people always bringing up rape and incest, as though every second baby was conceived that way.
It’s a very tiny percentage folks!
Apparently Sarah Palin was talking about abortion today on the campaign trail. The Communist News Network says she is trying to “paint Nobama as a radical on abortion.” Ummm… when you vote for infanticide is that not radical enough.
This article does not mention if Sarah said anything about BAIPA or Freedom of Choice Act, I hope she mentioned that too!
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/11/campaign.wrap/index.html
justchuck,
Which doctor are you talking about? The abortionist? He is intent upon killing a baby so he won’t be much help. The abortionist who took the life of my child didn’t even look at me or talk to me. So much for that relationship. I did not have a family doctor. Couldn’t afford it. What to do, justchuck, what to do.
I love how you tell us to mind our own business. You have come here not minding yours to tell us to mind ours.
I have met too many hurting women who regret their abortions to think it is none of my business. I have made it my business to care.
I would love to adopt. I have friends who would love to adopt. Are you willing to as well?
You know what really assaults a woman’s dignity?? Abortion. It was the most horrifying experience of my life and the most vulnerable I have ever felt. Table, stirrups, vacuum, death.
justchuck,
There’s nothing compassionate about killing a baby. Pro-lifers volunteer at pregnancy centers on their own, through church ministries, work at soup kitchens, etc.. The Project Gabriel ministry will actually pair a pregnant woman who needs help with mentors, usually women from a church who will help her through her pregnancy and the first year after the baby is born. That is real compassion.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Yo la,
I think most people spend way too much time and money on Christmas presents too, but I really enjoy hearing “Merry Christmas” from cashiers, etc. It harkens back to the simpler days of my childhood. Gosh, even if you don’t believe in it, you can still extend a pleasant greeting. What is this world coming to when people are more concerned about political correctness than being cordial?
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
HisMan @ 10:23,
The story you posted about army chaplains being forbidden to use the name of Jesus during prayer is beyond belief. Churches in this country need to speak up NOW before this becomes a law nationwide. Perhaps those offended by the name of Jesus could be warned in advance to cover their ears during prayer?
Good morning, Carla. Thank you for your post.
Good morning, Janet. Thank you for being you. Someday we will not be discussing abortion nor fighting for the lives of babies. You know of what I speak. :)
HisMan,, and Jasper, I’d feel better if they just got rid of all the chaplains. Living off public money like that, they should be ashamed, and get a real job.
Posted by: hal at October 11, 2008 11:32 PM
——————–
Gee Hal, I feel the same way about Democrats.
Every now and then, the real Hal shows through.
hal makes atheists look bad.
There’s an interesting story out about Obama’s membership in a short-lived socialist political party called the “New Party”. Check it out:
http://newzeal.blogspot.com/2008/10/obama-file-36-how-socialist-was-obamas.html
Test your knowledge! Start with an easy one:
Which candidate was hauled up in court for public obscenity/indecency after he blew up at a girl who wouldn’t go to bed with him?
OK here’s a more challenging one:
Which THREE CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN SENATORS, colleagues of McCain, have PUBLICALLY stated that his hotheadedness should disqualify McCain from the Presidency, and that they would fear for the country and the world if he were elected?
For answers:
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/make_believe_maverick_the_real_john_mccain
And be sure to look up what Sarah Palin’s religion says about the Pope before you vote.
Janet:
Did you go to Gov. Kaine web site and send him a nice e-mail?
This also shows the intent of the real Barack Obama and those that support him.
People who support Barack Obama, like Hal, know who he truly is. It’s the Barack Obama that defeated Hillary Clinton and not the Barack Obama that is running agasint John McCain.
The BO who defeated Hillary was a tax and spend, defeat in Iraq, rabid pro-abortion, leftist Marxist. terrorist appeaser, pro-Wright, pro-Phelger, pro-Acorn, pro-Ayers socialist.
The level of deception being waged in this campaign is beyond belief.
And Hal, you are a poster boy for deception. We do not forget that you aborted your first two children. We do not forget that the real you hates God. We do not forget that you support Barack Obama who you know is not a true Christian.
Listen up Christians. This election is not up to the likes of Hal. Obama knows it and Hal knows it. Their jobs are to decieve and convince as many Christians as possible that they are something other than they really are. Do not fall for this.
We can turn this thing around if we will vote our values of pro-life.
God has warned us about what would be happening in the last days. Do not allow yourselves to be taken in:
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 “10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.”
Every now and then, the real Hal shows through.
Posted by: HisMan at October 12, 2008 8:29 AM
Is getting Chaplains off the public dole really a radical idea? I’m not saying it’s unconstitutional, I know the original Congress had a Chaplain. I’m just saying it’s not really a good idea. You can agree or disagree, but it hardly seems to be an extreme position.
Hal,
When I was a young fool I was a bit of an idealist and a romantic. As I got older reality set in and I ‘sobered up’. Even an old fool has more wisdom than a young fool. Now I am a skeptic resisting becoming a cynic.
John Denver was a universally successful composer, and vocalist. He had a gift for putting lyrics and music together in a way that moved people. Now I am not saying everybody liked his music, but as a wise man once said, ‘It is hard to argue with success.’
Some people are still enamored with John Lennon’s ‘Imagine’. There is a similarity in the message of both songs.
My point is, and I mean no disrespect, just because somebody says the right things with eloquence does not guarantee that they have the character, intelligence, integrity, experience, and maturity to make the dream a reality.
I apologize for the confusion. I hope my intent is now intelligible.
————————————————-
So you speak to me in sadness and the coming of the winter,
fear that is within’ you now it seems to never end,
and the dreams that have escaped you and the hope that you’ve forgotten
and you tell me that you need me now and you want to be my friend
and you wonder where we’re going, where’s the rhyme and where’s the reason
and it’s you cannot accept it is here we must begin
to seek the wisdom of the children and the graceful way of flowers in the wind.
For the children and the flowers for my sisters and my brothers,
their laughter and their loveliness would clear a cloudy day.
Like the music of the mountains and the colors of the rainbow
they’re a promise of the future and the blessing for today.
And the song that I am singing is a prayer for non-believers
come and stand beside us we can find a better way.
————————————————-
yor bro ken
Kbhvac, your first paragraph describes me as well.
HisMan @ Oct11:10:23,
I went to Gov.Kaine’s site but I figure …. why would he listen to moi?
But, this is awesome – Tuesday, Oct. 14 is “Northern Virginia Cabinet Community Day” – an annual event. The VA governor will be visiting several sites in Fairfax, Lorton, Woodbridge, and Triangle, Virginia. The MEDIA and THE PUBLIC are welcome to all events.
http://www.governor.virginia.gov/MediaRelations/GovSchedule-CabDay10-08.cfm
The last event of the day on Oct. 14, 2008:
Reception at National Museum of the Marine Corps. The Marine Corps Heritage Foundation will host Governor Kaine, his Cabinet and the public for a Cabinet Community Day evening reception at the National Museum of the Marine Corps. The museum opened in November of 2006 and is dedicated to protecting the history and telling the stories of the United States Marine Corps and its more than 230 years of service. For directions and information on the museum, please visit http://www.usmcmuseum.org. Free and open to the public and media.
When: 5:45 p.m.
Where: Leatherneck Gallery, National Museum of the Marine Corps
18900 Jefferson Davis Highway
Triangle, Virginia
I’d be surprised if they were not interested in Gov. Kaine’s new rule on prayer at the National Museum of the Marine Corps.
http://www.governor.virginia.gov/AboutTheGovernor/contactGovernor.cfm
Carla @ 8:19,
Good morning, Janet. Thank you for being you. Someday we will not be discussing abortion nor fighting for the lives of babies. You know of what I speak. :)
I don’t know what I did to deserve such kinds words. You too!
Let’s pray for those who know that abortion is wrong but are too stubborn to vote with their hearts. Amen.
Amen.
For the record, I’ve got no trouble with “Merry Christmas” or happy holidays, but I do think that boycotts over stores that have their employees not say such things (like any $7 an hour cashier has much autonomy anyway) is okay. Why should a business care? The republicans are gonna give them a tax break anyway.Meanwhile you’re concerned about other people’s fetuses.
Agreed – say “Merry Christmas” if you want to – sheesh.
Doug,
Sheesh?
Don’t you celebrate Christmas, or what?
. . . . . . . . .
Yo la,
I have this thing about “other peoples’ fetuses”. I can’t help it.
Janet, isn’t it nice that there actually are people who care about “other people’s fetuses”? I mean, without them/us, who would care about orphans? Oh wait, I forgot, the proaborts want all of them killed before birth…
Here are a couple of links on the just released “investigators report” on Sarah Palin:
http://hughhewitt.townhall.com/blog/g/134db782-50f0-42e5-8171-791804d9fbc1
http://www.puma08.com/2008/10/11/lets-set-the-record-straight-on-the-sarah-palin-abuse-of-power-reprimand/
No, informed consent does not insult a woman’s dignity. Being duped and exploited by abortion profiteers does. Yes, any pregnant woman should be shown ultrasounds of her baby. She is the child’s mother, and should be as far in the loop as possible concerning her child.
All murderers want privacy; darkness hates light.
If the proaborts gave a merry damn about women’s health, they would face up to the fact that in 35 years of being legal, it still isn’t safe, and become prolife. The unborn aren’t endangering women’s health, the abortionists are. A medical license may provide a margin of safety for the mother, but that is cancelled out by the murderous bent of the one who abuses it to kill instead of heal.
“Reproductive Rights”??? What a crock! Induced abortion is the opposite of reproductive rights!!! A woman who is pregnant has already reproduced. Abortion is about the right to murder the child. It also tends to make a woman less able to reproduce future children, thus destroying real reproductive freedom.
And Planned Parenthood probably doesn’t tell women that they when they “want to have children later” that they will face possibly miscarriages and premature births.
Instead, they tell women its “as easy as having your tonsils out”. Name me a few women who had problems (mental) after having a tonsilectomy.
“Agreed – say “Merry Christmas” if you want to – sheesh.”
Doug, Sheesh?
Yes, Janet.
….
Don’t you celebrate Christmas, or what?
I do. I was saying, in effect, “Sheesh – this hand-wringing over saying ‘Merry Christmas’ is silly.”
I see Christmas as quite a secular holiday, and to the people who are all worried about it, I’d say good grief – there are plenty more important things to get all hot and bothered about.
John Denver was a universally successful composer, and vocalist.
Agreed, but he couldn’t pilot a plane for crap.
“What weighs six pounds and won’t get plucked for Thanksgiving this year?”
“John Denver’s guitar.”
Bad, I know, and old too.