“This picture haunts me”
I received this today…
Jill,
I used to be vehemently pro-choice, and as part of a religious conversion I became a bit more sympathetic to the pro-life point of view. It was your testimony about the facts of abortion on your website, however, that were a large part of me becoming absolutely unapologetically pro-life.
I’ve had a blog for a while and have shied away from talking about pro-life issues, but I often think of your fearless example and the amazing results it’s had and have decided to being sharing my thoughts on the realities of the situation with my readers as well.
God bless you,
Jennifer
That was nice. And Jennifer’s posts were excellent. The first explained why the above picture haunted Jennifer.
The video was haunting, too, particularly the end. (Click on the photo on Jennifer’s site to view it.) Such smiling, happy, nice, normal looking people. Disassocation, I know it well.
Jennifer’s second post began:
A little over a year ago, shortly after I converted to the pro-life position from being rabidly pro-choice, I started to come across pro-life writing in which abortion was compared to the Holocaust. I balked at such comparisons. The rhetorical strategy of comparing whoever you dislike to Hitler and any kind of oppression you disagree with to the Holocaust is as weak as it is offensive, and I didn’t like to see pro-lifers stooping to that level.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
There by the grace of God we go.
There, BUT FOR the grace of God we go.
Interesting. So a real pro-lifer says that Jill helped to convert her. That’s so unlike all of the phony pro-lifers on here, sent by Satan to try to discourage Jill.
From the second post:
“I began to notice that as a culture, by default, we consider new life in the womb to be babies — precious children. But as soon as they get inconvenient we downgrade them to “fetuses” and exile them from human society.”
God heal us of our spiritual blindness that we may all see abortion for what it really is, murder.
Most people do not care. Even though Eisenhower forced German citizen to tour the death camps, most of them accepted no responsibility. Most Germans did not care. They only cared if it happened to them or someone they knew and cared for.
To publicly protest was to invite your own imprisonment, torture and death, not only of your self but your family and associates.
Few people at any time will risk their freedom and life to save a stranger.
But there are always a few. The ‘White Rose’, a group made up predominantly of college students moved by their conscience tried to expose the horror and move their fellow citizens to action. The reponse of the German government was to hunt them down, imprison them, and execute most of them.
Here are some excerpts from their leaflets.
Isn’t it true that every honest German is ashamed of his government these days? Who among us can imagine the degree of shame that will come upon us and our children when the veil falls from our faces and the awful crimes that infinitely exceed any human measure are exposed to the light of day?
From the first leaflet of the White Rose.
————————————————
Since the conquest of Poland three hundred thousand Jews have been murdered in this country in the most bestial way … The German people slumber on in their dull, stupid sleep and encourage these fascist criminals … Each man wants to be exonerated of a guilt of this kind, each one continues on his way with the most placid, the calmest conscience. But he cannot be exonerated; he is guilty, guilty, guilty!
From the second leaflet of the White Rose.
————————————————-
“We will not be silent. We are your bad conscience. The White Rose will not leave you in peace!”
Concluding phrase from the fourth leaflet.
yor bro ken
Jill:
The seed of the Nazi Holocaust and the seed of the Abortion Holocaaust are the same. I will post why here:
Abortion is an affront to the creative nature of God, it negates God as Creator,
Abortion denies the power of God to right a wrong, it negates God as Redeemer,
Abortion makes that which is good, the birth of human life, into that which is evil, the death of human life, and then calls it good, the very definition of blasphemy,
Abortion negates the resurrection power of God as it takes flesh that is alive in it’s earthly abode (the womb) and kills it, while God takes that flesh which is dead in it’s earthly abode (the grave) and desires to make it alive,
Abortion’s desire is to take that which was composed from the chaotic array of elemental molecules into a symphony of life infused with an eternal soul, and turn it back to the entropy of randomness, chaos, nothingness, uselessness.
Abortion is against all that is hopeful, all that requires faith for success; for it’s solution; annihilation, it’s goal; death, it’s dream; breaking God’s heart, it’s vision, Satan’s ultimate power.
Abortion is a counterfeit, for the clawprints of Satan are everywhere to be found in its performance;
Abortion disguises hate as love, bondage as freedom, choice as maturity, sin as righteousness, political correctness as wisdom,
Abortion pits men against women, mothers against their children, fathers against God, Yes, abortion is Satan’s feeble attempt at killing God Himself, for abortion is a metaphor for Satan; it is his coat of arms, his family crest, his logo, his brand, it belongs to him……for he laughs at its willing proponents as they craft their own self-destruction, mantled in self-deception.
Copyright 2007, 2008 by HisMan
When homicide is legal, and the primary assailant is the victim’s mother, and the first accomplice is the victim’s grandmother and the assasins are aided, abetted, funded and protected by the government, how do you ‘sound a moderate alarm’ as William Lloyd Garrison put it?
The advantage that the abolitionists and the White Rose had that we do not is they could present a resoning human being, such as Frederick Douglas who could not only articulate his plight as well as any other human being and he could pull his shirt off and show humanity the scars on his back from the whipping he received at his masters hand.
Even then some people are so blinded by their own bigotry, and that is what abortion on demand is bigotry, they will not recognize the object of their disaffection as their equal, a fellow human being. Or they though they may recognize the child’s humanity they subort it to the whim of the child’s mother who want only to be rid of ‘it’.
“Each man wants to be exonerated of a guilt of this kind, each one continues on his way with the most placid, the calmest conscience. But he cannot be exonerated; he is guilty, guilty, guilty!”
“We will not be silent. We are your bad conscience. The White Rose will not leave you in peace!”
yor bro ken
Two things : This is a particularly salient example of Reductio ad Hitlerum – that is to say, reducing an argument to the tired nazi comparison. At which point, 90% of people roll their eyes and the other 10% close their eyes and go to sleep. Seriously, find a better analogy. One that actually fits – the nazi’s were anti-abortion, so your fallacy holds the intellectual weight of hot air seeping out of a balloon with holes in it. Until then, thanks for the laugh.
It’s so strange thinking back to my pro-choice days. All the mental backflips I did to justify my stance just dont.make.sense.
I’ve just spent an hour trying to find a post I wrote regarding my response to abortion signs when I was prochoice, but I can’t so I’ll leave you with my conversion story instead. It’s probably for the better because my response to the abortion signs was very angry and bitter and sad.
“I’m having a really hard time dealing with certain things right now. I’ve always been a crazy liberal and still am in almost every way but for some reason I’m having a huge breakdown right now about the subject of abortions.
When I found out I was pregnant with Holden my mom and my exboyfriend basically told me that if I didnt get an abortion I would ruin my life. My mom even had case studies to back up her point. Then at 18 weeks when my triple screen came back abnormal, my mom essentially told me that Holden would be better off dead. Throughut the pregnancy I was reminded that an abortion was always an option.
Fast forward to when Holden was born. Because he was born at 31 weeks, he looked more like a “normal baby” than the fetus look that the 23 had. I kept looking at those tiny babies and their parents and thinking about all the people who had had abortions at the same gestation. Granted these late term abortions are rare but they do happen. Anyways, I was surrounded by mothers and fathers who were so despearate for their children to survive that it made the concept of an abortion at any age seem incomprehinsible. The more I think about them the more disallusioned at society I become. It seems that no matter what the argument for said abortion, it comes down to the selfishness of the mother overcoming the life of the child. I know this sounds so judgemental and if anyone reading this has had an abortion I promise I think no less of you. It’s just that this innocent child is killed because of what? Because it is an incovienance to be pregnant for 9 months? Because people might look down on you? Because it is emotionally harder for you to give up a child than to kill a lump of cells. I just can’t see a time when the woman’s right to privacy outweighs the childs right to life. If I could allow myself to believe that a child isnt a child until it was delivered at 40 weeks then maybe I could rationalize all of this. But, as I said, I saw 23 week old babys and they were clearly alive. These tiny innocent children who the world apparantly thinks are dispensible. I know that some people truely believe that having an abortion will save the child from a life of saddness, but who are we to make that judgement. It worries me that society has come to the point that even the most innocent of lives are no longer sacred. Please someone help restore my faith in humanity. All I can hope for is that science will come to the point where they can keep babies alive nearly from the point of conception. When this happens there will be no need for abortion and no argument for having one.
Once again, Im sorry if this came out as judgemental or condeming I promise I dont mean it on a personal level. I am just so saddened by how little life means in our time.”
So yo la,
when your mom was prenant with you what species of embryo/festus was resident in her uterus?
yor bro ken
Yo la Tengo,
You need to change your name again because you don’t have it, nor do you get it. Your old name (Yo La Tango) fits you better because you like to dance around (the truth).
Hey Yo Soy Tonto, if you want to describe the Nazi’s position on abortion accurately, you should mention that the Nazis did not oppose all abortion – just the abortion of the babies of the “superior race” which they were trying to breed. In other words, the Nazis were eugenicists, just like Margaret Sanger and Planned Parenthood.
Jennifer,
Your posts are excellent! Please continue writing on pro-life topics!
If all you can do is name-calling, why post?
Point taken.
The weird ideas of Margret Sanger no more discredit planned parenthood than the rampant molestations by priests discredit Jesus or his followers.
Yo La, you’ve got it backwards. Margaret Sanger is the founder of Planned Parenthood, not simply a member. It would be as though Jesus committed the crimes of the priests and Christians were following this example.
Why have those that support destruction if life systematically desensitized themselves to horror?
We test them with Hitler analogies and see their chilled reaction. Do they also get glory in death?
xppc,
Very good point.
yo la
Why won’t you answer the quesion?
What species of embryo/fetus was resident in your mother’s uterus when she was pregant with you?
yor bro ken
yo la
Why won’t you answer the quesion?
What species of embryo/fetus was resident in your mother’s uterus when she was pregant with you?
yor bro ken
Posted by: kbhvac at November 10, 2008 5:35 PM
Kindly pose questions that are not above his/her pay grade.
Bigots are generally cowards when confronted with their bigotry. They will not defend their bigotry because they cannot.
They hide behind hoods and masks and sophisties and euphemisms because no one can defend what is not true. It is impossible. Defend yourself if you can.
Yo la
What species of embryo/ fetus was present in your mother’s uterus when she was pregnant with you?
YLT: “One that actually fits – the nazi’s were anti-abortion, so your fallacy holds the intellectual weight of hot air seeping out of a balloon with holes in it.”
Be careful throwing the word “intellectual” around, especially when blatantly confusing the exact analogy at hand.
We are comparing the denial of rights to a group of humans based on criteria upheld by the Nazi elite to the denial of rights to a group of humans based on criteria upheld by the liberal elite. Similarly to how the German public accepted what the Nazi’s passed as moral without question, a good portion of the American public also accepts what the left espouses to be correct. The analogy is further heightened by the grand scale of both denials.
You claim that the analogy is “unintelectual” is based on the accepted conclusion that abortion is not murder. Essentially you claim that we cannot make the analogy between the deaths attributed to the holocaust and the deaths attributed to abortion because abortion is not murder. Since intelectualism is so important to you, and since you are so consider with building proper arguments, I think you would benefit to know that this is the epitome of circular reasoning. You are assuming your conclusion, that abortion is not wrong, to be true in refuting the analogy to prove that it is wrong.
In your words…
“That analogy doesnt work to illustrate that abortion is wrong, because you cant use that analogy because abortion isnt wrong!”
Even if this is way over your head, think about it like this. Does an analogy have to be accurate in every sense of its use? If this is true, there can be no analogies whatsoever. An analogy is obviously used to relate similar, yet different, things to illustrate the underlying concept. In this case alone we are justified in using the holocaust analogy as it so perfectly mirrors the arbitrary denail of rights to a group of humans.
I hope I phrased my point “intelectually” enough for you YLT.
By the way, Janet, I laughed outloud at the “dancing around the truth” jab. I didnt even notice that he was using Yo La Tango.
However, pull the wiki up on Yo La Tengo, and you’ll see the story of how several baseball players kept confusing themselves and tripping over each other. It seems to fit YLT anyways.
Yo la,
You don’t have to answer the question correctly. Just answer it honestly. You can be honestly wrong.
yor bro ken
Times up yo la.
The answer is ‘human’. No woman ever reproduced anything other than a ‘human’ fetus. Just like no cat ever produced anything but a feline fetus.
No woman has ever even reproduced a chimpanzee or ape or monkey.
We only reproduce what we are.
Even amoeba’s only reproduce amoeba’s.
Plant a kernel of corn as many times as you like it will only reproduce corn.
When pregant women procure an abortion a human almost always dies, except in those rare cases where the human fetus survives the attempt on his/her life.
yor bro ken
No see, you dont get it kbhvac, abortion isnt wrong, because obviously abortion isnt wrong! I mean duh! Also fetuses are totally NOT alive! They are vampire werewolves until they are born, and then the light of day turns them into precious babies! Obviously this is true because it is clearly true!
This is such simple question. The answer is obvious. Danielle is the only pro-choice person who has answered the question. She answered it correctly: human fetus.
But she said it did not matter, because the fetus was not ‘sentient’ til near the end of gestation and even then, the pregnant woman’s right to physical autonomy trumps the prenatal child’s right to life.
I give her props and creds for her brutal honesty. I disagree with her arguement. But it would be futile to attempt to dissuade her.
Only a ‘revelation’ will dislodge her from her fortified position.
yor bro ken
Ihavent read all of Jennifer’s posts but they look very interesting.
One thing caught my eye in quickly skimming through things:
“If were a 31-year-old woman with three little kids in a busy house in Germany 1941, would I have fully understood the evil that surrounded me?
I’ve have read an awful lot of holocaust literature. One thing that many people noticed is that people disappeared. They didn’t know where there went because sometimes roundups and arrests took place at night. So the neighbours next door just vanished. Where?
For our current holocaust the “missing” are not so immediately apparent. It’s seen now in our empty schools or schools with smaller classes. It’s apparent in the few children that come by for Halloween. It’s seen in the greying demographics.
You simply can’t replace 50 million missing souls in a country.
and another thought I just had: the effect of the abortion holocaust is more apparent in countries such as India and China because a special segment of the population is disappearing – girls…
Patricia 6:36PM
Isn’t it ironic abortion is used to promote and maintain the second choice second class status of women? Something I’m sure feminists would never anticipate in a million years when they fought so hard for legal abortion.
What’s that saying about being very careful what you wish for….you just might get it.
Mary: yes it was a major “bite me” to women.
They fought so hard for equality based on the right to kill their unborn children and women themselves ended up being targeted. Don’t you just love how Satan twists everything!!
Patricia and Mary
You do not have to go to India or China to find people who used abortion to get rid of undesirable female prenatal children.
In Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada there are ethnic groups that send their pregant wives to Blaine, Washington, just across the border, for ulrasound examinations to determine the sex of their unborn child so they can abort if it is not the desired sex. It is usually the female child that is not wanted.
yor bro ken
In a 1982 Nursing journal of mine the late Dr.Robert Mendelsohn stated that 4 out of 5 of the fetuses aborted for being the “wrong” sex in the U.S. were female.
I remember years ago hearing of a woman who asked one of our OBs for an amnio to determine the sex of her baby. If it was female she planned to “get rid of it”. They physician refused, telling her she would have to find another physician if this is what she wanted done. How fortunate for the little girl that was born.
yes, I know this kbhvac.
Also this is the situation in Britain as well. In fact, I think there is quite an element of coercion on women in Britain (by their husbands) to go to India for the sex selection abortions.
What better way to reduce the population than get rid of the females first? Isn’t that the major reason for abortions?
I had never heard of the White Rose group. Thanks for filling me it.
I did watch the video of all the photographs that came with the one poster here. I can’t help but think of the ‘fun’ parties our local Planned Parent hosts. I can’t help but think of the blood on all of ‘groovy crowds’ hands on judgement day. Really awful.
I am wondering if the tax payer funded abortions would encourage more men to take a stand in the prolife movement. My husband works so hard so I can stay home. He gets a little hot under the collar(good!!)when he talks about his hard earned money going to kill babies and wound women.
Just throwing that out there!! :)
What better way to reduce the population than get rid of the females first? Isn’t that the major reason for abortions?
Posted by: Janet at November 10, 2008 8:20 PM
—————————————————-
It is not nearly as messy as wars and concentration camps. How do you arrange a flood or a tsunami? Biological solutions are too unpredictable, too hard to control.
The abortion procedure itself is profitable. Now, if a method can be developed to profit on the human remains.
“Soylent green is people.”
yor bro ken
Posted by: lovethemboth at November 10, 2008 8:37 PM
‘I can’t help but think of the ‘fun’ parties our local Planned Parent hosts.’
————————————————–
Ask xppc.
yor bro ken
About the picture that haunts Jennifer, did you realize that there were several escape attempts made at Auschwitz? There was a famous escape from the concentration camp at Sorbibord (sp). It just goes to show you, Christian or Jew or Muslim, young or old, black or white, we are all humans, animals, we have an instinct to survive, to survive and try to thrive. Do you think there are no holocausts going on now (besides abortion)? Do you know how much suffering there is in this world? How do we get up in the morning? During the siege of Leningrad and Stalingrad people would boil leather wallets and eat them just to live another day. The survivors of the Donner party ate their dead friends and relatives to survive being stuck the winter in the Sierra Nevada (interestingly when their Native American guide refused to eat a person who just died they killed him and ate him instead). You throw the worst situation you can think of at people and we will find a way to overcome.
Oh and I think some of the people here would have embraced the Nazi cause because they seem to look down so on non-Christians. Would you be angry if instead of Jews it were Muslims?
Posted by: Carla at November 10, 2008 8:47 PM
I am wondering if the tax payer funded abortions would encourage more men to take a stand in the prolife movement.
—————————————————-
When Title X was created to use federal tax dollars to fund ‘family planning’ Congressman Dingle (I believe that was his name.) Said that ‘NONE’ of this money was to be given to organizations that promoted, funded, or performed abortions.
That was in the original legislation. I believe it is still there. But the clear intent of the law has been turned on it’s head. Now, in order to qualify for these federal funds organizations are required to offer abortion as a method of family planning.
I do not understand why the taxpayer is required to pay for ‘elective’ surgical procedures on women who are not ill. Unless you consider pregnancy a sexually transmitted disease, these women are not sick.
But to make sense of it, you have to go back to the ZPG. Live births do not reduce population growth, PP does not profit from live births and the corrupt politicians do not profit from live births.
It will be easier pass legislation to open up ANWR to drilling than it will be to defund PP.
PP is the sacred cow, the golden goose, of the ZPG crowd.
yor bro ken
Jess,
I am repulsed no matter who the victims were. Jews were not the only victims of Nazi persecution. The physically and mentally challenged, mentally ill, gypsies, gays, political opponents, and Slavs, were all brutally persecuted and murdered. Plenty of Chrisians endured persecution and murder.
It has also been speculated that if the Nazi troops had treated the conquered Soviet states and Russian people more humanely, they would have toppled Josef Stalin who made HItler look saintly in comparison.
The German people were caught in a Messianic fervor in their devotion to a man, actually a street thug, who they viewed as a savior. Sound familiar?
Posted by: Jess at November 10, 2008 9:08 PM
Oh and I think some of the people here would have embraced the Nazi cause because they seem to look down so on non-Christians. Would you be angry if instead of Jews it were Muslims?
—————————————————
Doug suggest you do some more reading, one of Hitlers goals was to destroy Christianity, not only in Geramany, but the whole world.
Also Doug, you are indulging in a little bit of stereotyping. Christianity is not monolithic. You can find some anti-semitic people who identify themselves as ‘christian’, but my experience is that most, the vast majority of ‘christians’ do not want to see ethnic group destroyed.
I believe the same can be said of most people in general, regardless of their faith or non-faith.
Humanist seem to have the least regard for human beings, particularly the Maxist Humanists. Might do some research and see how many people have died as a result of humanist enterprises and how many people have died as a result of religious enterprises. You do not and I am sure you will not include prenatal humans, but it is no contest. Humanism is responsible for the deaths of more people than all the religious wars combined. I would argue that you could throw in pestilenc, famine, plague and natural disasters.
You probably should not include the NAZI’s with the humanists. The NAZI’s had some pagan thing going on in the leadership.
yor bro ken
Yeah Mary, you basically described every popular politician.
Posted by: kbhvac at November 10, 2008 9:25 PM
My aplogies doug, post was meant to be addressed to Jess
Jess,
No I’m afraid I didn’t. I described a politician that Americans are presently entranced with.
Ken my stance as a progressive anarchist is probably as far away from Communism and Socialism as you can get. I bet abortions would decrease drastically, but then there would be gay marriage, so I don’t know how you feel about it.
Mary,
There were some Germans who were such devotees of Adolf that they believed if they had a photo of his likeness hanging on the wall a bomb would not/could not hit their home.
Any body out there know what Heil Hitler means in English? What is the translation that best communicates what those words mean in English?
yor bro ken
Doesn’t it mean Hail Hitler?
Well Mary some people think it’s a sin to pray for the dead. It doesn’t change anything. No matter how many people think Obama is Jesus it doesn’t change anything. Do you think Obama would have lost if Jesus popped up and said, “By the way I’m not Obama”?
Jess,
I’m afraid I miss your point.
Jess,
I did not suggest you were a humanist. I made a claim that humanism, in all it’s permutations, is responsible for more death, destruction and misery than all religions combined.
If progressive anarchy is one of those permutations so be it.
You are creating straw men when you make a claim that christians would have been less grieved if it were muslims who has died instead of Jews.
And you will no doubt be surprised that first people the NAZI’s killed off by the thousands were Aryan Germans whom they considered defective. They had to cleanse the gene pool of their DNA. Their next victims were homosexuals and gypsies. Hitler took the existing programs and expanded them to include the Jews.
I do not see any of those people as expendable. They were/are my fellow man.
yor bro ken
Jess,
Do you see my point now?
yor bro ken
Jennifer’s blog is really great. Thanks, Jill, for sharing it.
Jill,
Jennifer seems like a neat lady and her neatness comes through so well through her words. They are not abrasive. They have a soothing quality to them.
yor bro ken
Oh no Ken I didn’t think you were saying that I just wanted to share my political opinion.
Mary my point is people can say Obama is Jesus but it doesn’t change anything. It’s a little scary soon enough we’ll see he’s human like everyone else. He’ll throw up on some diplomat and he’ll lose a few popularity points, just like Bush Sr.
Jess,
Yes we will see soon enough how human he is. That’s what scares me. I only wish throwing up on someone was the worst we have to anticipate.
Maybe he will pleasantly surprise us. You don’t know.
Jess,
No, I definitely do not anticipate that. I think those in a messianic trance will be the most unpleasantly surprised.
Of course you don’t anticipate it that’s why it’s a surprise. Do you think more people will become pro-life during his presidency?
Jess 10:04PM
I anticipate the worst. If people become more PL or not I have no way to anticipate.
New York Times
The Climate for Change
By AL GORE
Published: November 9, 2008
“THE inspiring and transformative choice by the American people to elect Barack Obama as our 44th president lays the foundation for another fateful choice that he — and we — must make this January to begin an emergency rescue of human civilization from the imminent and rapidly growing threat posed by the climate crisis.
The electrifying redemption of America’s revolutionary declaration that all human beings are born equal….”
———————————————-
Gee, did we redact the Declaration of Independence? Is there a provision in the US Constitution for amending the Declaration?
I could have sworn that Jefferson’s words were …self evident all men are created equal…
There is big difference between ‘created equal’ and ‘born equal’.
This from the man who invented the internet. One would think he would know how to use the internet to get an accurate copy of the Declaration of Independence.
But this is from an Op-ed piece in the New York Times. Their motto used to be, All the news that’s fit to print.’ But today it seems to be, ‘All the news that fits’… our world view.
Somebody tell algore chill out. The o’bama (pbuh) has got all this stuff covered. The o’bama (pbuh) makes the dead rise to vote, his disciple Joe causes the lame to walk. If the o’bama (pbuh) makes the rising of the seas to slow, can he not also make the DOW to rise at his command?
yor bro ken
Mary do you think God will ever make another “world”? Like after this one has come and gone, gone for a long, long time. Do you think he’ll make people again?
Posted by: Jess at November 10, 2008 9:48 PM
“It’s a little scary soon enough we’ll see he’s (o’bama pbuh) human like everyone else.”
————————————————-
Careful, Jess you are coming close to blasphemy. That is a punishable offense. Here and in the death to come.
yor bro ken
Ken I meant we’ll see Obama is human like everyone else. I mean Jesus was human too but he was divine. Well you know what I mean, Jesus wouldn’t say something was above his pay grade.
Not that I know what Jesus would say but I don’t think he’d say that.
I’m sorry that was a typo I meant to say “It’s scary (referring to people who see him as divine, as Jesus) BUT soon enough we’ll see he’s human like everyone else.”
Jess,
the o’bama (pbuh) devotees might see it as blasphemy if you suggest that the ‘one’ is a mere human.
One of Hitlers close aids said that in the beginning Adolf was human, then he became super human and in the end he was sub human.
I watched just a little of the o’bama’s (pbuh) first post election press conference. All the major media were there. He spoke from behind a lecturn that had a presidential blue placard that said, ‘President-elect’. The reporters all addressed him as ‘President-elect’
I do not recall any other president elect being addressed this way nor having a placard to identify himself as such. It was pretentious to say the least and surreal to say the most.
Burecrats in Africa have this need to have elaborate official sounding titles. It smacks of that kind of self agrandizement.
This man is going to do great damage to the office of the president because he has no sense noblise oblige. He demeans the office he has been elected to serve. He demeans the people he has been chosen to serve, because he is a servant to no one.
If you think Jesse, and Al and Oprah were crying on election night that is nothing compared to the tears they will shed when he betrays the misplaced hope and trust they have put in him as the first ‘black’ president.
He is classic narcicist. It is not about black, or democrat or liberal. It is all about barak.
GOD help him, he needs it. We need it.
yor bro ken
This is such simple question. The answer is obvious. Danielle is the only pro-choice person who has answered the question. She answered it correctly: human fetus.
But she said it did not matter, because the fetus was not ‘sentient’ til near the end of gestation.
*******
Sentient? 20 week old babies have survived outside the womb. That is only half way through gestation and I am sure these babies could feel.
Truth seeker
The point was Danielle did not care because the human fetus’ rights were completely subordinate to the mothers physical autonomy.
I agree with you wrote. But only a ‘revelation’ will dislodge Danielle from the fortified position she has constructed in her own mind.
I give her credit for her brutal honesty. She is the only proabort person who has attempted to answer the question. She answered it honestly and correctly and unapologettically.
unlike yo la tango, for example.
yor bro ken
truthseeker
Have you ever encounterd a white supremicist bigot?
I used to have a regular customer who would come in my place of business and start preaching his racist gospel and I would just endure him.
But one day he made the mistake of asking me what I thought about his coments.
I am not some super sensitive politically correct artificial flower who will fein indignance for the offended party who would be offended if they were there.
But he asked me what I thought so I told him not a single thing he said was based in any kind of reasonable thought. It was all based in his emotional irrational distorted view of reality and it had no value to me and if he had any sense it he would realize it had no value to him.
What I said did not phase him one iota. He got the merchandise he came for and left and I saw less of him after that. You can not reason a bigot out of his bigotry. Only GOD can save him from his self delusion.
yor bro ken
Posted by: Jess at November 10, 2008 10:18 PM
Ken I meant we’ll see Obama is human like everyone else. I mean Jesus was human too but he was divine. Well you know what I mean, Jesus wouldn’t say something was above his pay grade.
Not that I know what Jesus would say but I don’t think he’d say that.
—————————————————
Actually Jess, the gospel narrative indicates that Jesus himself said, I only speak what I hear the Father saying and I only do what I see Him doing.
So one could say that HE recognized that everything was above HIS pay grade.
He chose to defer to the Father in all things.
yor bro ken
Jess 10:11PM
I’m not The One to ask. :)
kbhvac,
He is a sociopath in my opinion, though narcissist and sociopathic personality disorders are closely related and in the end there is little to differentiate them. As such, he views himself as above the rules most of us know we must live by. He’s frightening.
Jess,
We are eternal beings. Jesus will be back and there will be a new heaven and a new earth. You must choose where you want to spend eternity. With Him(heaven) or without Him.(hell)
Happy veterans day. we have couragess men that protect the lives and safety of Americans. .
Except the lives of the unborn. The innocent.
Many unborn children will sacrifice their lives for lasciviousness.
kbhvac: can he not also make the DOW to rise at his command?
Ken,
I think a falling DOW serves his desires a whole lot better. I think you’re going to see a drive to nationalize a lot more than health care with this administration/congress. They’re not only coming after our wallets, they want our 401Ks too.
We may need to go into the William Jefferson mode of saving for retirement. Not a lot of return, but perhaps safe. At least until the “Civilian Defense Force” begins raiding private residences.
DeeL,
Will this be before or after he bankrupts the coal industry? That was just hypothetical
And the civilian defense force. Isn’t that just talk? He doesn’t mean it.
People, everything starts as “just talk”.
Excuse me, but I should have said the “civilian security force”. That’s was The One called it if I recall correctly.
Don’t dictators usually have their own private armies or police forces?
Has your 401k lost value?
Do you think there will be no SS when you retire?
For all of human history people have been investing in their future and planning for retirement by raising good children.
Hold your children close and love them and when you need them, they will hold you close out of genuine love, affection and gratitude.
I would rather sleep on the sofa in my son’s home surrounded by my grandchildren than to spend my final years in the fanciest of assisted living centers.
Awesome post, hippie! I agree!
Doug suggest you do some more reading, one of Hitlers goals was to destroy Christianity, not only in Geramany, but the whole world.
Ken, what was this about? I hadn’t posted anything on this thread.
Oops, no problem Ken – saw your correction.
Gee, do Jess and I sound alike?
You know how married couples start to look alike?…something like that is going on, Doug. :)
Any body out there know what Heil Hitler means in English? What is the translation that best communicates what those words mean in English?
yor bro ken
Posted by: kbhvac at November 10, 2008 9:32 PM
Great question!
“Heil” means “heal or cure”.
In this idiomatic context, it is analogous to the English “God save the Queen” without the God and Queen of course.
Hippie it’s so sad that sometimes parents are abandoned by their children in their later years, or their children are constantly getting into trouble or putting their needs in front of the needs of the parents.
You know how married couples start to look alike?…something like that is going on, Doug. :)
Rofl
It appears that Mary and kbhvac may be onto Obama’s personlity disorder — he and his thugs, I mean, team, leaked details of the meeting between President Bush and himself, and lied about what they had discussed, now an Obama spokesperson is scrambling to correct things. This guy does have a delusions of grandeur — has any other pres-elect rushed to the White House to demand deals before they were even sworn into office? Did he really think that he could lie about his conversation with President Bush and get away with it?
You know how married couples start to look alike?…something like that is going on, Doug. :)
:: laughing ::
Carla, I’m afraid I’m a few months too old for Jess.
And anyway, she’s gotta work on the beard….
Eileen #2, 6:09PM
Absolutely. Typical sociopathic behavior. Of course he thinks he can get away with lying. He has repeatedly done so already. In fact he doesn’t have the slightest qualm about lying, as we have seen. Of course his flunkies will “explain” him. And the public will “understand”. The power of sociopaths is mind boggling. Look at Bill Clinton. A classic sociopath in my opinion. No matter what he did people fell all over themselves to “explain” and “understand” him. He just had to pout and play the victim(typical sociopathic behavior). His ability to manipulate people was incredible.
Delusions of grandeur are definitely narcissistic characteristics. Remember when Obama whined to Maureen Dowd when she ridiculed his ears? Narcissists are extremely sensitive to criticism and often overreact. People who have one personality disorder in the “cluster” (borderline, sociopathic, histrionic, and narcissitic) will often display symptoms of another. The symptons of these disorders are overlapping and so similar that’s they’re often hard to distinguish.
My daughter who is a borderline, as was my father, also displays Naricissitic and sociopathic traits. The thing is sociopathic traits such as lack of empathy can also be part of the borderline and narcissitic personality disorder traits. You can see how this gets confusing!
Does it matter if Clinton was a sociopath? His lowest approval rating ever was 37%. Only two Presidents have ever had higher lowest approval ratings: Kennedy and Eisenhower.
I’d say if his worst approval rating was 37% he did a helluva good job. Bush’s lowest approval rating? 19%.
Josephine,
I never said Clinton was stupid. He was brilliant and a master politician. Personality disorder people are usually of very high intelligence, especially sociopaths. They’re also likely to be incredibly charasmatic. They’re people who always see themselves as victims.
He was also a man void of conscience, a master manipulator, a risk taker, and a con artist extraordiannaire.
He was a typical sociopath.
Hi Doug,
Please watch my abortion testimony. We’ll have coffee and talk.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnLUadlbAuI
I don’t take approval ratings too seriously — I have to wonder if most people really look in depth at politicians and the issues.
“He was also a man void of conscience, a master manipulator, a risk taker, and a con artist extraordiannaire.”
Who cares? You said yourself he’s brilliant and a master politician. He could be a transgender, satanist, and… I don’t know, have a clown fetish. But none of those things should matter to the American people except that he’s a good president.
And Eileen, maybe you should read or listen to the radio interview Bush gave about Obama’s trip to the White House.
Josephine,
Did you say clown fetish? LOL.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7721764.stm
Janet, I laughed out loud at: “You could argue that there is nothing left to satirise when the first policy announcement made by the new president is that he is going to get his angelic daughters a new puppy. Maybe we have all died and gone to happy bunny land. ”
The article reminded me of something in Bill Maher’s interview with Larry King:
King: You recently issued one of your new rules decreeing that Obama must give comedians something to work with. Any suggestions?
Maher: No. It’s very difficult. We have been spoiled, first with Bill Clinton and then George Bush. And here’s a president now who — he’s not stupid. He’s not angry. He’s not a phony. He’s not fat. He’s not cheating on his wife.
Who needs a jerk like that around for the next four years? Come on.
But look, he’s going to be the president and we’re going to have to get over our nervousness about making fun of a black person. He’s not a black person. He’s the president.
(Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think Obama is perfect by any means.. I just think he totally sucks for comedians.. since comedians don’t tend to make jokes about policy or anything.)
Josephine 8:48PM
I didn’t say Obama is a master politician, I said Clinton was.
I think Obama is what I said, a sociopath and narcissist. Americans can’t see beyond the charisma. That’s what concerns me.
By the way Josphine, the world’s despots past and present have had these traits.
Mary, I wasn’t talking about Obama in my post to you. I was talking about Clinton also. My point was, who CARES if Obama is a narcissist and a sociopath? That has NOTHING to do with him being President, which is why I referenced Clinton..
Josephine,
I didn’t say Clinton was a good president, I said he was a master politician. This was largely do to his ability to manipulate people.
Personality disorders such as this can affect judgment and perception, and not for the best. As I pointed out the world’s despots past and present had/have these similar traits.
That should tell you something.
…you said he was brilliant. And he was one of the best Presidents of all time. Under Clinton, there was a budget surplus. There hadn’t been one for 100 years.
If Obama gets compared to Clinton, he is doing something right and democrats should be very happy.
Please watch my abortion testimony. We’ll have coffee and talk.
Carla, I watched it, and I think you did a good job. As with your blog, you were quite straightforward, I think.
I don’t deny any of your experience, and the only thing I take issue with is the generalization that “abortion hurts women.”
Josephine,
I know I said he was brilliant and how good a president he was is debatable. Keep in mind he had a Republican congress and senate after two years in office which may have helped with the budget balancing. But his Tomcat behavior was stupid and reckless and could well have placed him in a very vulnerable position as president. It nearly destroyed his presidency. This is typical sociopathic behavior. These people thrive on risk taking, which I find unnerving for a leader.
As I said Josphine these disorders affect judgment and perception. They are a cause for very serious concern.
Again, keep in mind the despots past and present who had/have these disorders. That should tell you something.
Josephine,
I have dealt with these people in my own family and in the real world. Believe me, they do not perceive reality as you and I do. They do not see themselves as doing damage to others, only as the victims of others. These are very cruel people. Hair trigger tempered. Their own failings are always someone else’s fault. They lack empathy. They lack a conscience. They are egocentric and self serving. They view humans, even their own families, as objects to be manipulated.
They are master liars and manipulators. They are also incredibly charming and manipulative.
Its no wonder its these people who become despots and dictators.
I am deeply concerned for this country Josephine, deeply concerned.
Oh, you’ve never met Bill Clinton. You have no idea if you’ve dealt with people like him or not. You’ve never met HIM. The things you listed there sound like they could be applied to every president in the last 40 years.
Speaking of abortions
Speaking of low approval ratings.
With congress dipping into the single digit approval ratings, it made a lot of sense to go after the Gov of Alaska. A much higher chromosome pool. Obama comes out of the sediment and We know his genetics won’t suddenly improve by January. GM broke. Coal industry broke. airlines broke. It has been tough since Dems took the lead in congress. The ethanol industry is broke. Casinos will be begging for bailouts next.
California is broke. The Dems have a golden touch. every piece of gold they touch turns in to compost.
Josephine,
I never met Al Capone either but I can tell you the man was a sociopath. Even Al Capone could make himself look like a great guy when the occasion called for it. He opened soup kitchens which were great PR and gained him much public sympathy and support. The reason why he did it, it certainly wasn’t his humanitarian side. I never met Hitler but can tell you he was a Narcissistic Personality Disorder/sociopath.
Observing Clinton’s long time Tomcatting which is extremely risky and totally reckless behavior, his ability to portray himself as the victim and actually view himself as such, his ability to manipulate people (people fell all over themselves to “explain” and “understand” him and make excuses for him) criminal activity such as sexual assault, an ability to “play the part” i.e. the “contrite husband”, “the victim”, he could even turn on the tears on command at a funeral. He was caught doing this on camera.
This guy is a textbook sociopath.
California is broke? California’s governor is Republican, dude..
Well, excuse me for thinking you’re ridiculous for comparing Al Capone or Hitler to Clinton. My mom is a Dr. of psychiatry. I’m pretty sure she’s never attempted to diagnose anyone she’s never met. I’ll call her tomorrow and ask her how that works. I’m fairly certain she’s very learned on the subject of sociopaths…
Josephine,
You are ridiculous for thinking I made such a comparison. I didn’t. Go back and reread my post.
The governor of California is a RINO. He’s more a tax and spend liberal. Keep in mind he married into the Kennedy family. By the way I make no excuses for the man. I think he’s as stupid as he is useless.
Fine with me about your mother. But let me tell you something. It was me who had to figure out what was wrong with my daughter because great minds in psychiatry kept misdiagnosing her.
Also, a friend of mine who is borderline has spent over 40 years drugged, shocked, in and out of hospitals, and seeing every shrink you can imagine. None of them apparently knows much about borderline personality disorder.
Nothing personal but I’ve about summed up my opinion of most, not all, psychiatrists.
My advice to anyone is do your own research. You’ll end up knowing as much, probably more, than most doctors, psychiatrists or otherwise.
I have been led to understand that psychiatric medicine is still in its infancy so those psychiatrists who think that they have things figured out (based oftentimes on what is currently politically correct) are only hurting people if they don’t bother to further their research. Mary, that is too bad about your daughter and friend — I hope that they are doing better now. There is someone close to me who is married to a guy who has a personality disorder that has yet to be diagnosed. He has a number of those traits that you have mentioned. I have heard that these things are often difficult to treat but I have heard a doctor, Richard Fitzgibbons, interviewed and have read some of his articles, who is having some success in treating his patients. He is a Catholic who includes the necessity of the spiritual in the healing process. Some of our secular methods are only dealing with the symptoms and not the cause. God can heal everything, but of course, the patient must desire it of Him. These problems can be absolutely heartbreaking for all those involved. Your daughter and friend will be in my prayers. Forgive the run-on sentences!
So, professionals meeting with your daughter couldn’t figure her out? It took you, someone who LIVES with her, to figure out what was wrong? And because of that, you can diagnose people you’ve never met..? Okay, that doesn’t make any sense..
Eileen #2,
Thank you so much for your kind words and support. Personality disorders can be extremely difficult to treat and few therapists are so qualified to do so. Also the individual must realize they have the problem and be committed to long term therapy. Its more likely the PD will view you and everyone else as having the problem. BPDs in particular have been found to have abnormal brain scans, which would suggest the problem is innate. They perceive reality differently because brain abnormalities cause them to process it differently.
I can be so thankful I have an answer. I knew something was wrong with her. She has been estranged from us for almost 5 years but I have found out she is a college student and doing very well, still with her boyfriend, who offers her stability. I can be so so thankful for this. I also have to accept that stepping into her life can blow it apart. In her mind, we are her enemies. These people can function normally, but stability can be fragile. Its likely you encounter many and never realize it.
One thing Eileen is that I have been able to reach out to so many parents struggling and with no answers as I did at one time. They have run the gamut of “experts” , crises, drugs, etc. with no answers. I have been able to steer them into what might be a helpful direction with my own experience and the info I have obtained and where to research. All they want is an answer.
Maybe I help, maybe I don’t. But at least its an avenue to explore.
As for my friend, she has been trapped in this existence for so long I can’t imagine she will ever break out. She has a measure of contentment and stability in her life, and I think she cannot imagine her life without drugs, hospitals, and therapists. Its a strange sort of security but its her security. Like the longterm convict who is afraid of release because prison life offers them security and safety.
Josephine,
Yes you have that right. It took me, someone who lives with her, to figure it out. Thankfully someone could! What’s even better is I can steer parents toward an answer to what might well be wrong with their children. I strongly encourage their own research and what they should look at as a possibility.
I don’t diagnose people I’ve never met. I observe certain behavior patterns and form an opinion. I remain convinced Clinton is a sociopath. I remain convinced Obama has both narcissistic and sociopathic traits.
And yes, I trust family members who live with a person to know far more than the “experts”. There’s something called research Josephine, and its at our fingertips on the internet.
A friend of mine is a special ed teacher. I trust her knowledge, experience, and diagnostic abilities far more than any “expert”. In fact, she’s called more than one of them on a wrong diagnosis, and the child benefitted immensely because of it.
Sometimes people who have been “in the trenches” are the far more knowledgable ones.
Yes, research is at our fingertips on the internet.
You are aware not everything on the internet is true? My mom went to Dartmouth Medical School. I asked her about diagnosing a famous person. Is it possible to do without knowing them? She told me there isn’t anyway to even get an idea, because the face they put on for the public could be (but isn’t necessarily) different than how the person actually is. You don’t know what Clinton is like with his family or with friends.. In fact, how much have you actually heard directly from him, not just from newspapers and the news?
Josephine,
Actually Josephine, everything the doctor tells you isn’t true either. My daughter was misdiagnosed and improperly medicated. My friend who is BPD has spent her life with therapists, drugs, and hospitals. This is her world, and she’s no better off for it. We were left to roam in the wilderness so to say with a seriously disturbed girl. I happened to stumble across info on PDs in a crime book I read and began my research. After spending hours on the internet I could only say “thank God I finally have an answer”. This explains everything from childhood on. For example, sleep disorders such as bedwetting and night terrors may indicate a child who will develop BPD. My daughter was plagued with both. In early adulthood she still had night terrors and was afraid of the dark, open closets, mirrors, and figurines. She’d stay up all night in our living room to avoid the dark and terrors.
Look Josephine, with all respect to your mother, her education, and her opinion I think you can observe certain behavior and draw certain opinions and conclusions from it.
Some behavior is so blatant, such as reckless womanizing, sexual assault, crying victimhood, ability to manipulate people, turning emotions on and off as needed, that its screams sociopathy.
Actually how they behave in private and public can tell you a lot.
I’ll let you in on a secret Josephine. I’ve spent my life “in the trenches” with PDs. My father was a borderline. My grandmother was sociopathic. I’ve also read books and articles written by experts in the field. Its a fascinating subject.
I’ve had parents thank me for steering them toward what may be an answer for their child’s mental health issues. The “experts” weren’t doing squat to help them. I’ve had to explain to my daughter’s grandparents that she will always be lost to us. She perceives us as enemies and since she does have sociopathic traits, I will never trust anything she says.
I’ve been able to explain to my mother that she never had a prayer of making a marriage work with my father. She always viewed this as a huge failure in her life.
I respectfully disagree with your mother.