Weekend question

weekend question.jpgWith news this week 2 more Planned Parenthoods have been added to the list of those covering up child rape comes this question from reader yor bro ken:

If a minor female is not mature enough to consent to sex with an adult male, how is she mature enough to consent to the elective surgery of abortion?

With additional news a lesbian who attempted forced insemination could be charged with attempted rape, yor bro ken asked a germane follow-up question:

Technically speaking, there are different classifications of rape. “Insertion” is not limited to a male body part but can be any object.
So how is the adult abortionist’s vaginal insertion of any instrument for abortion in the case of a minor girl, particularly without parental notification, not statutory rape or some other form of sexual assault?

133 thoughts on “Weekend question”

  1. So how is the adult abortionist’s vaginal insertion of any instrument for abortion in the case of a minor girl, particularly without parental notification, not statutory rape or some other form of sexual assault?
    I have to say that when I watched the video clip of the Russion abortion movie on this website, this is EXACTLY what I thought. It looks like these women are being sexually assaulted. I was nauseated.
    To me abortion is an terrible trauma that occurs to a woman. During that trauma the body of the baby dies and the soul of the woman dies. Her very heart, her femininity is deeply wounded.
    I fail to see how feminists cannot recognize this.

  2. And if she’s not mature enough to choose abortion how in the world can she be mature enough to choose to give birth???
    I strongly support parental-consent requirements. If my twelve-year-old comes home pregnant and says she wants to grow the pregnancy and be a mom (just the kind of kookey idea she’d get, too) she should damm well need my permission. Which she would not get. If necessary I’d strap her down and do her abortion my own self. Or spike her breakfast milk with methotrexate.

  3. I met a woman once who had been forcefully aborted by her father with a hanger. One of the sickest, saddest things I have ever heard.
    Zombie,
    You would also be killing your grandchild in addition to raping your daughter and messing her up for life.

  4. Zombie, that is disturbing and rather spiteful. Why not support your daughter? Anyone pregnant, regardless of age, deserves support, respect, and dignity. Actually, everyone deserves that, pregnant or not. You were joking, right?

  5. No, not joking at all. Why should a minor girl be allowed to give birth without her parents’ consent? Her parents are the ones who are gonna end up taking care of the kid, and paying for it too.
    You all frequently talk about the need for the parents to protect her from the dangers of abortion. But the dangers and consequences of giving birth are much worse. I should be able to protect my daughter from them. She’s way too immature to choose realistically and she’d have no idea what she’d be getting herself into.

  6. Wow, I can’t imagine how anyone with an attitude like Zombie’s could possibly maintain a loving relationship with a daughter.
    yor bro ken brings up two very good points that hadn’t previously occured to me. I had heard the pierced ears comparison before, and it is a bit similar, but it just shows the hypocrisy of the liberal left. They’re in favor of parental notification for mundane things like tylenol dispensation at public schools or getting pierced ears, but NO ONE shall interfere with barbarism. They consider it their political mandate that they ought to advance the cause of barbarism in all forms here and around the world.
    Funny coincidence, eh? They support terrorism in the only way the American public will allow, by portraying terrorists as victims and refusing to fight the War on Terror or even call it that. Obama’s planning to release the Gitmo terrorists, some of whom will be given the same rights as American citizens and tried in American courts, some of whom may be released into our nation, free as a bird (or an abortionist).
    Then they oppose the death penalty for child rapists and murderers, because the death penalty is “mean”, while disguising it as a ploy to save the taxpayers the expense of fighting through the appeals process. They call prison time “rehabilitation” for criminals who’d stab a knife in your eye just as soon as they’d look at you. Then, of course, life in prison means no such thing, as “life” generally means 30 years total, and they get out on probation after 7!
    It’s a seemingly subconcsious tendency for the left to unwaveringly defend those who want to kill everyone, and kill those who are most helpless and can’t care for themselves.
    You’d almost think they didn’t believe in God or something…
    It honestly never occured to me (I’m not really all that bright, I’m afraid.) until Ann Coulter mentioned in one of her books that liberals seem obsessed with barbarians, and suddenly the world came into focus.
    Just my thoughts on it. I know many commenters don’t agree with the death penalty either, and my little rant here isn’t really about you. It’s just my observation that what Ann said seems very true.

  7. Zombie, that’s rather cold of you to say, though I don’t think that you have to be a cold person. You can choose to support her. After all, the child’s body wasn’t meant to be aborted. It’s really hard on the preborn. You’re daughter is not your property, Zombie. She is her own individual with rights and you could not physically force her to have such a terrible thing. But, praise God, she isn’t pregnant.
    Why should a minor girl be allowed to give birth without her parents’ consent? Why should a woman be allowed to step outside of the house without her husband’s consent? There is a difference between children respecting adults and adults believing that they own their children.

  8. Laura,
    good points! According to liberals, if you are going to cause them an inconvenience of any kind then you should be terminated.

  9. Well, I believe the key here is “elective surgery”. While an adult can consent to neccessary surgery for a child, I think it crosses a line for an adult to force a child, especially one who is 12 years old, into elective surgery. It’s akin to forcing your 12 year old to get a nose job. That ought to be the child’s choice, and while a baby would be expensive for her parents to care for, yes, liberals ALWAYS love to ignore the adoption issue. They just hate the idea that their hardship could be someone’s blessing. If they’re not happy, no one else can be either. (Ahem, barbarism)
    I also challenge this oft repeated non-statistic that pregnancy is more dangerous than abortion. Where are you getting these non-existant numbers from, Zombie?

  10. An excerpt from “Sharing the Pro-Life Message”
    (I told you I’m not that bright, so I have to quote a booklet, lol):
    “Abortion advocates often claim that abortion is much safer than childbirth. However, this claim does not stand up to a close examination of the evidence.
    The official medical term that this claim is based on, ‘maternal mortality’, includes deaths from abortion, so the claim that abortion deaths are much lower than ‘maternal mortality’ really says nothing. Moreover, ‘maternal mortality’ includes deaths from hemorrhages, blood cloths, ectopic pregnancies, infections, complications from high blood pressure or diabetes and more – not just childbirth itself.
    No accurate reporting of abortion deaths exists. Some studies show that 4% of maternal mortality is due to abortion while others show 8%. Anecdotal evidence reveals substantial underreporting. For example, John C. Willke writes that a pro-life physician friend did not report a girl’s cause of death as abortion because ‘that family has suffered enough and I’m not going to add to their woes by revealing that she had an abortion.’
    Because the records of live births and stillbirths are public, it is easy to correlate deaths related to childbirth. Any woman who dies within one year of giving birth is automatically considered a maternal death for record-keeping purposes. But records from abortions are private. This means that unless a woman’s family reprts that she had an abortion or somehow a coroner determines that she had an abortion, her death will not be included in the statistics for maternal mortality or abortion death”

  11. You all frequently talk about the need for the parents to protect her from the dangers of abortion. But the dangers and consequences of giving birth are much worse. I should be able to protect my daughter from them. She’s way too immature to choose realistically and she’d have no idea what she’d be getting herself into.
    Posted by: TheSingingZombie at March 21, 2009 8:20 PM
    That’s why under these circumstances your daughter is too young to have sex!
    Therefore, you should teach her to wait until she’s married.
    So simply, really.
    oh, and have you heard about adoption? The dirty A-word to proaborts?

  12. oh, and have you heard about adoption? The dirty A-word to proaborts?
    Wait for it, Angel. Reality will be in here to let off a stink bomb about forced childbearing as a means to address couples’ infertility. Wait for it.
    Proaborts will never advance adoption because it lessens the obligation of the fetus to die on demand. What does it say about “feminism” to slaughter little girls in the womb as a convenience to big girls outside the womb? Is that gender advocacy or devouring one’s young?

  13. Excellent points!
    You know, advocating ADOPTION requires having HOPE for the future which is sadly missing in the minds of aborters. “Pro-abort syndrome” is a mental illness, I believe, which needs to be treated.
    How do we begin?

  14. By “pro-abort syndrome”, I mean the illness that fanatical pro-aborts seem to suffer from – that allows them to live their life promoting abortion. I am not suggesting that all women who abort are suffering from mental illness, although I’m certain that some probably are.

  15. What does it say about “feminism” to slaughter little girls in the womb as a convenience to big girls outside the womb?
    well what does it say that an entire generation of women have based “equality” and women’s rights on the fallacy that it can only be achieved by so-called “reproductive freedom” – a catch word for the right to kill other females.
    the dreadful irony of it all: a significant portion of the world’s females have actually lost the right to life

  16. Innocent baby boys are given elective surgery that forever alters their body everyday without their consent in the US. I find it interesting that bodily integrity only seems to matter when it comes to fetuses here.
    I do agree that forcing a girl to have abortion is wrong just as forcing childbirth is wrong. Both involve risks, although childbirth is more physically painful with a much longer recovery time. Unless you’re the person having to go through it I don’t think you should have the final say.

  17. Very true, Angel. India and China in particular suffer from an extraordinarily high rate of female infanticide. China is communist, and India still lags behind many developed nations in implementing true feminist reforms. (such as the idea that a woman is not “damaged goods” if she gets a divorce because her husband married her simply to take her dowry and leave)
    I mean, based on the liberal’s skew of things, China is a super-cool nation merely trying to control its population, and India is “ethnic” and therefore cool by default. And yet they seem to ignore the fact that these two countries are very anti-women in many respects, not only in the high infanticide and abortion rates of female babies, but in China’s forced abortion and sterilization program (which they say will continue to operate until 2050)
    Liberals are very hypocritical in this way. As I said before, all things must bow before the one true god of liberals: barbarism. As much as liberals like to say they’re for women’s rights, during the presidential campaigns, it suddenly became okay to criticize a woman based on her gender, as when it was suggested that Sarah Palin would have trouble caring for her children if she was elected Vice President.

  18. Ann, it’s not hypocrisy to be in favor of circumcision, but not forced abortion of children. As you said, the two are very different. Circumcision is thought by many to have life-long health benefits, and whether you agree with that idea or not, abortion always kills a baby, while I believe circumcision deaths are exceedingly rare.
    Anyhow, I believe children should give as much input on elective surgeries as possible. While a 12 year old is capable of making informed decisions on elective surgeries with the help of a loving parent, a baby is obviously not. To force a 12 year old into elective surgery without her consent is in an entirely different class from circumcising baby boys. The comparison is ludicrous.

  19. One more point, although we are all aware that childbirth is painful, few are aware of just how painful abortion procedures are. They can take just as long, if not longer, than childbirth, and from what I understand, the pain is comparable.

  20. There is absolutely no reason to circumcise baby boys. No national medical association recommends it. The United States is the only nation where it is routine. It’s a cosmetic procedure inflicted on an individual that has not given his consent. He will have to live forever with the choice his parents forced upon him. If you cared about rights for all babies(not just the unborn) you would be opposed to this unnecessary mutilation. Let boys decide for themselves if they want parts of their genitals cut off.

  21. How do we begin?
    Good question, Janet. I think the president is counting on us to look at this as a divisive prolife vs prochoice debate. It keeps us off the larger issue of diminished civil rights for everyone (including proaborts down the road). By keeping us divided over the life issue, he prevents us from uniting over the threat to freedom that hangs over us all.

  22. This is a pointless off-topic discussion. We could go on for days trading quotes from medical doctors who support both sides of the issue. I think a debate would be pretty pointless, considering there are bigger issues at hand here. Not to mention, I find your suggestion that I don’t support the rights of babies because I didn’t outright oppose circumcision (If you read my comment, I didn’t even state my opinion on the issue) to be ridiculous.

  23. I just don’t understand how one can support a first trimester fetus’ right to bodily integrity, but not a newborn’s. Those against abortion always talk about how painful abortion is for the baby and how it doesn’t get a choice. Well no newborn chooses to have his legs strapped down as his genitals are sliced and diced. And this procedure is far more elective than abortion. There is no need for an infant to be circumcised. European and Latin American boys do just fine without it.

  24. I don’t know much about circumcision, but it is very important in Jewish culture. I think that most boys growing up in a Jewish culture are…well, glad that their parents did this since they grow up agreeing with it. Though, you bring up a good point, Ann. It has nothing to do with medical benefits- at least, not that I know of- it is of great cultural importance in Judaism, though. The true difference is that the culture that most often uses circumsition (I’m I spelling this correctly?) is doing what is spiritually good for the child. Abortion is a decision born from desperation. The circumstances are not the same. One is a ritual in one of the oldest religions in the world (though, admittedly, more than Jews do it) and the other is a terrible act that women would desperately avoid were circumstances better.

  25. Ann,
    What does circumcision really have to do with abortion? It is a medical issue as well as a cultural issue that concerns some people, but it is pretty tame when compared to the violent killing called abortion.
    ***********
    I agree, Fed Up,
    Divisiveness is Obama’s middle name. The idea is to manufacture crises, engage the masses in battles amongst themselves, the more catastrophic the better, while slipping his agenda in under the radar.

  26. “I fail to see how feminists cannot recognize this.
    Posted by: angel at March 21, 2009 4:35 PM”
    Because abortion is not about women’s rights its about power.

  27. “I strongly support parental-consent requirements. If my twelve-year-old comes home pregnant and says she wants to grow the pregnancy and be a mom (just the kind of kookey idea she’d get, too) she should damm well need my permission. Which she would not get. If necessary I’d strap her down and do her abortion my own self. Or spike her breakfast milk with methotrexate.
    Posted by: TheSingingZombie at March 21, 2009 6:01 PM”
    What a man!
    I’d love to go one on one with a wimp like you.

  28. From the Center for Arizona Policy:
    “Posted Tue, 03/17/2009 – 12:25
    What does it really mean to support “choice”?
    When explaining his vote in favor of HB 2564, the Abortion Consent Act, Rep. Frank Antenori asked some important questions. Rep. Antenori sits on the House Health and Human Services committee, and he was surprised at why “pro-choice” groups like Planned Parenthood didn’t show up for the committee hearing (yet they sent out e-mails to their constituents distorting the bill’s provisions and purpose). Here is a portion of Mr. Antenori’s speech:
    “If they were so concerned about some of the provisions of the bill, the opportunity to raise those concerns was during the committee hearing – and they decided to not get involved. Not one organization, not Planned Parenthood, not NARAL, not the ACLU rose to issue these concerns or oppose this legislation during the committee hearing. Why couldn’t they find the time? They had plenty of time to ask many people to send e-mails out, but they couldn’t find the time to stand up before us as members of the legislature and voice their concerns. That really bothered me because we want people to have the opportunity to voice differences of opinion, and evidently, standing up and voicing their opinion in regards to women isn’t important to them.”
    Planned Parenthood and NARAL claim to care about women and women’s healthcare, yet they oppose a bill like the Abortion Consent Act, which offers women the opportunity to make real, informed choices based on full and accurate information. The Abortion Consent Act is “pro-woman” – empowering women with time to consider the decisions they are making instead of allowing them to be rushed or emotionally induced to hurry through the abortion process.
    Why wouldn’t an organization like Planned Parenthood support something like that? Isn’t choice only really choice if you have all the information and time to think about it?
    Whatever reason these pro-abortion organizations might have for opposing the Abortion Consent Act, thus far they have not been willing to stand up to defend their position.
    Which leaves us to wonder: what does “choice” mean to abortion clinics? It seems like Planned Parenthood would prefer that you didn’t know the facts about the risks and alternatives to abortion.”

  29. I’m not a fan of RIC (routine infant circumcision) either… but I’ll say this much… any boy who is circumcised at least lived to BE circumcised, rather than being murdered in the womb.

  30. Off topic but. . . .
    I went to a womans show today with my three boys, got to talk with a local CPC and will now be in training to be a volunteer couselor (yay!). The CPC had little plastic babies from 6 weeks to term. My oldest son picked up a 22 week plastic baby and asked me why that baby wasn’t in a mommies tummy, I told him sometimes babies end up going back to heaven when their still in their mommies tummies. He relied, “But God wants babies to live right mom? Who would kill a baby? I think mean people kill babies.” This is coming from my 6 year old! Wow kids sure know the truth right???!!! Ironic that I found out I was prego with him at 22 weeks and had considered aborting him. . . .
    On a lighter note, while walking past the PP and Breast cancer awareness both (yes, they were RIGHT next to each other) my middle son got sick to his stomach and threw up all over the skirting for the PP table.
    After I got him cleaned up, and not the booth, the lady gave me a dirty look. I looked at her said, “oh, I’m sorry if my son got sick. Please forgive me for NOT aborting him. (said it in a kill em with kindness voice)”
    The evil eye turned to shock and one of the CPC booth ladies came over and helped me get my two other kids to her booth while I took my middle child to the bathroom.
    PP of Fairbanks really got it from the bile of my sons stomach! Ha, take that PP!
    Sorry just had to share this!

  31. Please forgive me for NOT aborting him.
    Good one, Krystal! I hope he’s feeling better. I’d like to hear more about your volunteer training after you get started.

  32. For the record all my boys are not circumsized because I beleive that when a girl is born they don’t cut anything off to make it more appealing so the same should go for the boys.
    If in the future, past age 12, my boys would want this procedure to be done than my husband and i will have a good long chat with him. Show him the difference between the two (please don’t take that the wrong way, there are many before and after photos that are not sexual but rather educational), get his true feelings on the subject, let him know what the procedure would be like, and meet with a urologist. If after that my son still wants this than we’ll go through with it. At that point it would be more their choice than ours. Unless there are issues with the foreskin that would require some surgical procedure to be done in order to correct the problem.

  33. ” “But God wants babies to live right mom? Who would kill a baby? I think mean people kill babies.” This is coming from my 6 year old! Wow kids sure know the truth right???!!! Ironic that I found out I was prego with him at 22 weeks and had considered aborting him. . . .”
    Krystal,
    Thank God you didn’t abort your son. abortion is evil.
    your son is wiser than many adults.

  34. I thank my son first and God second on not aborting him.
    When those evil thoughts went racing through my head at 15 years old Jadon started kicking the insides of me. Not my belly part but like my kidneys and liver….aw and don’t forget the spine.
    He was telling me he wanted to live….I knew he wanted to live too. I wanted him to live I was just a scared teen girl with no one to lean on. So me and my son leaned on each other.

  35. Oh and I wanted to ask everyone to keep me in their prayers. I have a minor surgery Monday to remove some cancer but they’ll also be doing some exploring and more tissue samples to make sure the cancer hasn’t spread.
    Thanks!

  36. AK Krystal,
    So me and my son leaned on each other.
    What a wonderful way to put it! My prayers will be with you and your family on Monday.

  37. First, @AK Krystal: Best of luck to you at your doctor’s appt…I’ll trust that you’ll come out with a clean bill of health after your surgery.
    At the post question:
    “Technically speaking, there are different classifications of rape. “Insertion” is not limited to a male body part but can be any object. So how is the adult abortionist’s vaginal insertion of any instrument for abortion in the case of a minor girl, particularly without parental notification, not statutory rape or some other form of sexual assault?”
    -This has to be one of the most absurd, far reaching attempts to block abortion access I’ve ever heard of. How on EARTH are you equating abortion with a sexual act, or rather, a rape? I mean…what?? It’s a medical procedure. That’s like saying that all minor girls are raped or assaulted by their gynecologists when they get pelvic exams and a speculum is introduced. I can’t…it’s too unbelieveable.
    And the flip side of the first question: Minors of a certain age can consent to sex with an adult (depending on state laws). Therefore, if a minor is of legal age to consent to sex, then she shouldn’t she be able to consent to an abortion? Goes both ways.

  38. One more point, although we are all aware that childbirth is painful, few are aware of just how painful abortion procedures are. They can take just as long, if not longer, than childbirth, and from what I understand, the pain is comparable.
    Posted by: Laura at March 21, 2009 10:53 PM
    -Laura, the majority of medical abortions are performed in the first trimester, and this is no more than a 10-15 min. procedure. Cramping intensity will vary from person to person.

  39. HisMan,
    The only time Planned Parenthood speaks up is if someone threatens to spill their apple cart. They have most Americans exactly where they want ’em. Preoccupied with other matters and ignorant of their agenda.

  40. Danielle,
    “-This has to be one of the most absurd, far reaching attempts to block abortion access I’ve ever heard of. How on EARTH are you equating abortion with a sexual act, or rather, a rape? I mean…what?? It’s a medical procedure. That’s like saying that all minor girls are raped or assaulted by their gynecologists when they get pelvic exams and a speculum is introduced. I can’t…it’s too unbelieveab”
    I doubt that minor girls can get a gynecological exam without their parents’ consent. I’d have a major problem if any gynecologist examined my daughter without my knowledge, except perhaps in an emergency. An abortion is never an emergency medical procedure, although pro-choicers here will protest that point. As Laura mentioned earlier, it is an elective surgery.

  41. I doubt that minor girls can get a gynecological exam without their parents’ consent. I’d have a major problem if any gynecologist examined my daughter without my knowledge, except perhaps in an emergency. An abortion is never an emergency medical procedure, although pro-choicers here will protest that point. As Laura mentioned earlier, it is an elective surgery.
    Posted by: Janet at March 22, 2009 2:52 AM
    -I’ll ask again…what does this have to do with abortion equating to a sexual assault or rape?
    Also, I do believe you can receieve medical treatment without consent? ex, if I had a minor patient who had specific concerns or issue, a pelvic or gyn exam may be necessary. As my patient, I would need to perform an exam on her, with or without her parents present. Again, I could be way off base, so if there’s a doctor in the house, please speak up. Thanks.

  42. There is a nurse in the house, and you would need the parent’s consent. You can request that they step out of the room so that you can speak to the child, and, in certain issues, you may need to obtain the child’s consent to tell the parent what you find, but you need the parent’s consent to do the exam in the first place.

  43. Ann,
    I have 5 intact sons,am pro-life,I don’t know many people besides Jews who circ anymore. Debating this is like debating whether or not your a bigger fan of Atari or Colecovision. And it has little to do with the topic at hand.

  44. Danielle,
    Cramping intensity?? Are you serious??
    The abortion was THE WORST pain I have ever felt in my life!! It hurt more than CRAMPS!!
    Every woman I have talked to or read their abortion stories has said the same thing. We were all lied to about the “cramping intensity.” It hurt like he**!!!
    The lies that the abortion industry tells WILL NOT STAND when countered with THE TRUTH!!!

  45. Re: circumcision
    There are medical benefits to the procedure. Circumcised males are less likely to spread HIV and other STDs to their partners than uncirumcised males.
    My son had a urinary birth defect that they needed the foreskin to repair. The decision was pretty much out of our hands. That said, if we had another son we would most likely circumcise because of the reduced risk of spreading disease.
    Also, surgery on the penis is much more painful as a person ages. My son’s next surgery is going to require an overnight hospitilization to manage the pain while all of his previous surgeries were outpatient.
    Anyways, I don’t think circumcision is remotely comprable to abortion. Circumcision doesn’t kill a child, abortion does. It isn’t a decision to take lightly, but it certainly isn’t on the same level as abortion.

  46. Oh and I wanted to ask everyone to keep me in their prayers. I have a minor surgery Monday to remove some cancer but they’ll also be doing some exploring and more tissue samples to make sure the cancer hasn’t spread.
    Thanks!
    Posted by: AK Krystal at March 22, 2009 1:34 AM
    you will be uplifted in prayer!

  47. Because abortion is not about women’s rights its about power.
    Posted by: HisMan at March 22, 2009 12:10 AM
    I would agree HisMan if you feel this is correct: feminist view of women’s right=power
    It’s a distorted view of women’s rights which initially began as a struggle to allow women to participate more fully in society, that is to go on to higher education and to be able to enter the professions; to vote; to be considered persons; to be unmarried and be able to work etc.
    Unfortunately, the entire process has been hijacked and turned into a lobby for “reproductive rights” which has infringed upon the rights of men (as fathers) and children (to live and be born) and the good of society.

  48. While circumcision isn’t the topic, I just had to reply. God commanded the Jews to circumcise for a reason. I wonder if it could have been more than just an act of obedience demanded of them.
    He told them not to eat pork. Why pork? Could it have been that undercooked pork can carry a parasite that is fatal to humans, which only now through modern science we understand? Why all the ritual washings? Hmmmm….what have we found about disease prevention through hand-washing?
    After doing much research before the birth of my son, with opinions on both sides regarding cancer, disease, infections, I was still not seeing any real reason to circumcise. Then a male friend who had served in the military overseas in a desert area said that the men who weren’t circumcised were MISERABLE. Could foreseeing all those years the Israelites were to spend in the desert have had something to do with His command–to lovingly spare His people future pain (as do all His commandments)? Only God knows, but I thought it was a good theory.
    (BTW, I didn’t circumcise my son. I didn’t think he would be spending much of his life in desert areas without showers available.)

  49. A few notes:
    1) Krystal… prayers with you.
    2) Circumcision: I would think it would be more hypocritical to be anti-circ but pro-abort. Sort of like, “Well, don’t cut off my son’s foreskin but you can rip him limb from limb and kill him.”
    Circumcision as practiced by ancient Jews bears very little resemblance to the medical procedure performed today. Hypospadias and a very few related medical issues do require circumcision to be delayed until the time of repair and that tissue is used for the repair.
    The “benefits” of circumcision can also be obtained through proper hygiene, most notably NOT forcibly retracting the foreskin prior to it retracting on its own (most medical issues can be traced back to that.)
    I don’t personally circ my sons. That procedure was a “mark”… originally it was a nick in the foreskin, not a removal of the entire foreskin. It was designed to remind the male of his covenant with God every time he saw his penis. And it is clearly listed in the New Testament as no longer necessary for a covenant with God. I’m not going to rehash something already settled by Peter and Paul.
    I have watched circumcisions performed… that was enough to reinforce that I will not circ any future son.
    3) The original feminists were staunchly anti-abortion. Were those Godly women still in charge of the feminist movement it would look nothing like it does today.

  50. Wichita Linewoman… I made it through that entire article and I have to say… I’m sorry, but the idea that it’s better to abort than adopt because it hurts the mom more to give her baby to someone to raise than it does to kill her baby is pretty darned sick.

  51. Wichita, that article is the biggest crock. My sister gave a baby up for adoption and has had no regrets. I completely agree with Elisabeth, that woman is sick.

  52. Post-adoption trauma is something that definitely needs more research. I have a friend who both had an abortion and gave a kid up for adoption and the adoption was much, much worse for her. It’s not right to say a woman who doesn’t want to raise a child can carry to term and then “just” give it up for adoption. There’s no “just,” there.

  53. My aunt placed her daughter up for adoption when she was 18 or 19. We got to meet her years later (in fact, she was in my sister’s grade at the Catholic High School). Then years later when they were unable to have a child of their own, this same Aunt and my uncle adopted a little boy.
    Another uncle and aunt adopted a child when they thought they were unable to have a baby. They ended up having a baby after they adopted and then a few years later, another baby.
    I wouldn’t have at least two of these three cousins if it weren’t for adoption.

  54. Okay, aside from the whole fact that tieing a child down and forcing surgical instruments into her most private places to destroy the life growing within her making me want to vomit, I can’t believe no one has commented one this: “grow the pregnancy and be a mom”.
    Um… grow the pregnancy? You can’t grow a pregnancy anymore than you can raise a parenthood. You grow babies and raise children. And you can’t be a mom without there first being a child to mother. You know the old term for pregnancy, ‘with child’?
    Have to cut my thought short, the baby, that I grew while pregnant and that is making me a mother, just woke up.

  55. yes, well post-adoption trauma is nothing compared to post-abortion trauma.
    Adoption doesn’t kill the kid nor the mother. Abortion definitely kills the kid and sometimes the mother too.
    There are always alternatives to abortion.

  56. Thank you Wichita Linewoman for once again trying to diminish my abortion story. I wasn’t talking about other happy, carefree, painless, and funfilled abortions was I? Glad it was such a walk in the park for you and your friends.
    There are thousands, millions of women who have had HORRIFYING abortion experiences just as I have. Some you can’t even ask anymore. They are dead.

  57. Post-adoption trauma is something that definitely needs more research. I have a friend who both had an abortion and gave a kid up for adoption and the adoption was much, much worse for her. It’s not right to say a woman who doesn’t want to raise a child can carry to term and then “just” give it up for adoption. There’s no “just,” there.
    Maybe the adoptive mother should kill the child- you know, so your friend can feel better about it and finally have peace.

  58. I also would agree that adoption must be very hard on a mother. A great sacrifice born out of great love to have something better for her child. A childless couple can receive the blessing of a child through such sacrifice.
    And the child gets to live!!

  59. It takes more strength to put a baby up for adoption than it does to abort it.
    My mom has confessed to me that she has had abortions and an adoption done. While it all made me very sad to know that those could have been my brother or sister and the adoption was my older brother. I know how hard it was for her to do both.
    I’m sure my mom has had both post-adoption & post-abortion issues.
    I remember being a teenager and telling her she should have just aborted me. . .I cannot even imagine how deep those words cut her.

  60. I wasn’t talking about the thousands of other happy, carefree, painless, and funfilled abortions was I?
    Geez, Carla! What’s wrong with you? Couldn’t you see how all those women in that Russian abortion film were having a “positive, uplifting, enriching AND empowering” experience while being aborted?
    Didn’t you notice the carnival atmosphere in the brightly decorated, posh clinics and the gentle, kindly doctor with her wonderful bedside manner?
    *sacrasm alert*

  61. You can’t honestly say that adoption is wrong because the mother might not want to give up her baby. But she can have an abortion? She’s still giving up the baby. And the child has rights, whether the government refusest to legally recognize them or not. They can’t just die because their mother doesn’t like adoption. There’s no doubt on my mind that adoption is hard and that those who give up for adoption ache but the adoption/abortion argument of this thread is the most ridiculous one that I’ve ever heard. If she wants to keep the baby after his birth, then she can keep the baby. If she feels that adoption is right for him and her, then she should have access to adoption that she prefers (open, closed, foreign, etc.).
    Why is it that adoption must be wrong because it is a choice that women will have to struggle to make, but abortion is okay even though that it is the same struggle of a choice? So, only adoption needs a terrible stigma though it is the same calibar of choice as abortion?

  62. I remember being a teenager and telling her she should have just aborted me. . .I cannot even imagine how deep those words cut her.
    Posted by: AK Krystal at March 22, 2009 1:28 PM
    well I don’t know you Krystal but I’m very glad your mother did not abort you.
    The world would be a lesser place in your abscence! :)

  63. ..the adoption/abortion argument of this thread is the most ridiculous one that I’ve ever heard. If she wants to keep the baby after his birth, then she can keep the baby. If she feels that adoption is right for him and her, then she should have access to adoption that she prefers (open, closed, foreign, etc.).
    yes, right!

  64. well I don’t know you Krystal but I’m very glad your mother did not abort you.
    The world would be a lesser place in your abscence! :)

    AMEN to that! We’re glad you are here, Krystal!

  65. Yeah the whole “it’s easier to have an abortion than give a child up for adoption” argument makes me sick.
    It is the most selfish, horrible thing I’ve ever heard. The person is basically saying that they’d rather kill their child than have to deal with the hurt feelings involved with giving their child away.
    Yes, giving a child up for adoption is hard. No on is going to deny that. However killing your child in order to spare yourself pain is horrific. If my children were going to die unless I gave them up for adoption, I would give them up in a second. It would be extremely hard, but their lives are more important than my feelings.
    It just goes back to the fact that abortion is an increadibly selfish act.

  66. Lauren: I really believe the problem is that many people simply don’t think things through. There is this mindset that now exists that adoption is a very selfish thing for a mother to do. But if you ask someone why it is so, they can’t explain it. It’s just an accepted “fact” that adoption is horrible so why would anyone want this for their child.
    This is only a recent phenomena.
    On top of this, is the modern idea of the unwanted child – that no child should be unwanted and that the solution to the problem of “unwantedness” is abortion. That unwanted children grow up to be criminals and misfits.
    Unplanned pregnancies and unwanted children have been around since forever. But mothers have grown to accept unplanned pregnancy and even seen the blessing in the child later born. This fact is largely ignored by the proabortion crowd.
    If it’s unwanted by the mother, then no one else is allowed to “want” that child.

  67. I’ve never had an abortion, but I did have a D&C for a missed miscarriage. Some of the cramping afterwards was HORRIBLE. Tylenol 3 didn’t even touch it. It was Christmas Day, too, which made it worse (the actual D&C was December 22).
    FTR, my son is not circumcised because my husband and I consider circumcision to be unnecessary cosmetic surgery. (My husband is circumcised, btw.)

  68. Does someone really have an answer for that though? Why is adoption so wrong because it is an incredibly difficult decision, but, abortion, which is the same calibar of difficulty, is perfectly fine and we must not try to help women in either scenario? Why is one right but not the other? Why is it that adoption would leave the mother with agonizing scars so we ought not go there but abortion- stay out of it? It leaves the mother with the same exact agonizing scars except that one is deemed liberation for women.

  69. IMHO adoption is not wrong. Abortion is not perfectly fine. Women are hurt and babies are killed. I help women in abortion recovery no matter what anyone says about abortion being a piece of cake. Which is a lie.
    Adoption may be agonizing at first. To carry a baby and then leave a hospital empty handed must be terribly difficult BUT the mother has the knowledge of a child growing up happy and healthy and perhaps a reunion someday?? Women who place their children up for adoption are a very special kind of hero.

  70. carla, I think my mom really wanted a reunion with her adopted son. But she found out he passed away three years ago.
    Maybe in Heaven my mom will get to hug her baby again. I wish I could have met him also. I always hated being the ‘oldest of the kids’ when he was 5 years older than me.

  71. Carla, I’d also like to bring up that your abortion was many years ago- the procedure may have been more difficult then. After my abortion I had some moderate cramping and bleeding for about a day, and mild cramping for a couple more. It was no worse than the pain I have with my period on a regular basis. All I needed was tylenol and a heating pad for a couple days.

  72. Erin, I think pain levels vary depending on a lot of factors. Overall though, I’ve read that abortions are typically a quite painful experience.

  73. mods,
    Can you delete the link at 2:19 PM? Its an annoying Rick Roll. Thanks.
    * * * * * * * *
    Erin,
    “Tylenol and a heat pad for a couple days” sounds like pretty bad cramping to me. If you had that kind of pain with each period on a regular basis, yours were a lot worse than mine. I barely noticed them at all. Now if I said that a hypothetical abortion of mine was no worse than any pain I have with a normal period, you’d be miffed with me for minimizing the severity of your abortion, right? So why do you do minimize Carla’s experience?

  74. Janet, I think noting that abortions 30 years ago may have not been as quick and easy as they are right now is not minimizing her experience. I understand that it was painful for her, but I’m simply musing whether part of that could be attributed to the fact that massive leaps in medical technology have occurred since Carla had her procedure.

  75. Somehow, I think that debating over whether or not abortion causes cramping is missing the point. It is not a painless procedure, I’m sure, but plenty of abortions that were done just last year or so are painful.
    No matter how far abortion medicine evolves, it still happens to be, well, abortion.

  76. Since we are talking about pain and discomfort I am wondering how pro-lifers feel about elective c-sections to avoid contractions, severe pushing, tearing/episiotomies, and stitches. I had a horrible childbirth experience and would rather have a c-section. Do you all support that choice?

  77. Krystal, it is amazing the things teens will say when they are hurting. I had my cringe moment when I asked my abusive mother (who was a three time cancer survivor) when she was going to take the hint and die already. I’m not proud of that moment, although I understand and fully remember the pain that drove me to it…
    I have been a part of several open adoptions where the adoptive parents were in the delivery room. One time the birth mother was in the hallway watching the adoptive mother bathe the baby in the nursery. I stopped to talk with her and she said, “You know, this is hard, but at least I know I did something good. I just couldn’t murder my baby just because I know I’m not the right person to take care of her. I’ve screwed up a lot of things in my life, but this, this I did right.”
    I would think that any woman who felt forced to put a baby up for adoption would probably have PTSD issues to deal with. And I recognize that adoptions done 20-30 years ago did tend to be forced issues… but with current adoption trends, this does not have to be so. I have several friends who have both given up a child for adoption and are now raising children. It is really a beautiful situation and the adopted children have the opportunity to hear, as often as needed, from their birth mothers… “I gave you life but I couldn’t provide for you properly. Everything I did was because I love you.” The families grow up with the siblings able to communicate freely, and now even 10 years later, these mothers are very, very proud of their decision.
    As they should be.

  78. AK Krystal:
    You were very courageous not to abort your babies.
    Did not everything turn out OK? I mean didn’t God bless you beyond what you could ask or imagine? Is not abortion against everything that requires faith for success. And don’t feel bad that you thought about aborting your babies. Satan tries it with everyone for his insane desire is to kill God Himself.
    Just think, you could have turned out like Hal who deep down regrets aborting his two daughters but now finds himself not being man enough to admit it and instead spends all his time defending abortion. He leads a truly tragic life because it doesn’t have to be like that. Pride is very destructive and very powerful.
    He could ask God to forgive him and admit to everyone here how wrong abortion is. Perhaps through that display of courage he could prevent someone from making the same mistakes he made. Instead, he just continues to sow more destruction and the hole he’s in gets deeper and deeper.
    Oh I know. He’ll respond that he made a right choice and everything’s fine. The problem is by doing so he’s also confessing to being in complete denial. I can’t imagine the pain he’s in.
    Oh by the way, living up in Alaska, do you know Ed Kalnins, Sarah Palin’s pastor? He’s a friend of mine and we’ll be spending time together this June at the 25th Annual AIM conference.

  79. Jess, who cares?
    Seriously… if you’d rather have major abdominal surgery than the discomfort of giving birth, go for it. I’m sure there are plenty of docs who will be happy to give you what you want. Of course, then you’ll realize that the healing time required for a c-section is longer than that for a vaginal birth and might regret that choice… but at least at the end your child will still live, which is really more the issue of this blog than any particular mode of delivery.
    I’m blessed with relatively easy labors and deliveries, so it would be silly for me to make a choice for major surgery unless it was required for the life of my child… at which point I wouldn’t hesitate to say, “Yup, slice me open, just save my baby!”
    (What is with some of the questions lately? First circ and now this…)

  80. HisMan,
    I live in Fairbanks and that is about 450 miles north of Wasilla.
    But it would be nice to meet the family some day. I met Bristol for a moment Though! WTG for her!

  81. Could it be that those women who had abortions and then gave up babies for adoption are actually experiencing post abortive stress disorder? Maybe they are confusing the pain of aborting their children somehow with the adopting out of their children. Maybe if they had addressed their abortions first then giving away their babies for adoption would have been less painful. It is very psychologically warped to think that it would be better to abort a baby then give it up for adoption to simply avoid emotional pain. However there are plenty of girls (who went into our local PP clinic) who were encouraged to consider adoption instead of abortion and their response was “if I was going to have this baby I would keep it!” That just blew my mind!

  82. whoops! should have used than instead of then ( it would be better to abort a baby than give it up for adoption ) Sorry!

  83. Danielle,
    Suggest you talk to a law enforcement officer who investigates sex crimes and/or an attorney who prosecutes sex crimes and/or go to your public library and read the particular statutes that deal with rape.
    You will be surprised at what you find. The ‘law’ is not like it is portrayed on TV or in the movies.
    If ‘elective abortion’ were not involved and it was your minor daughter or even son who submitted to an elective genital examiation without your knowledge or consent I have to believe you would have a different opinion.
    If your minor son elected to have a vasectomy without your consent, would you be OK with that.
    Then there is the matter of those accomplices to the illegal act being legally liable. By accomplices I mean counselors, nurses and abortionist.
    yor bro ken

  84. Posted by: Elisabeth at March 22, 2009 6:54 PM
    (What is with some of the questions lately? First circ and now this…)
    —————————————————–
    Elisabeth,
    I know your question is rhetorical, but I will answer it any way just to see if I can get it right.
    Divert and distract?
    yor bro ken

  85. I just noticed the quote of the day:
    George Tiller is a genuine hero who ranks alongside Susan B. Anthony and Martin Luther King, Jr. in the pantheon of defenders of human liberty.
    What the?
    Somehow, though I know that this is a useless diatribe, it irritates me when pro-choice (and I use that horribly inaccurate term loosely) supporters accept for themselves the mantle of “freedom fighter.” They appear to see themselves as staunch human rights activists and, somewhere, Lincoln, Douglass, Anthony, King- they’re all turning over in their graves. Sad day.
    Sorry, I think that I might be the only one irritated by bigotry masquerading as a savior, but that’s just me.

  86. HisMan, you wrote: “I’d love to go one on one with a wimp like you.”
    Fine with me as long as you use a condom.

  87. Whether or not he is a freedom-fighter, Dr. Tiller is a leader in his field, highly respected by virtually all neutral-on-abortion judges, a multiple terror survivor who continues to defy his terrorists and their oogedy-boogedy ideological supporters, and a successful survivor of an horrific addiction to the most addictive substance in the world (surgical painkillers) who now serves on the medical substance-abuse board.
    Vannah, you used the word “bigotry” above. I have never heard of Dr. Tiller being a bigot. I have been watching Dr. Tiller for a long time! Please source or explain.

  88. Zombie: “Fine with me as long as you use a condom.”
    Ohhhh snap. Hes talking about sex I think! Gotcha good Hisman…

  89. Jess: “Since we are talking about pain and discomfort I am wondering how pro-lifers feel about elective c-sections to avoid contractions, severe pushing, tearing/episiotomies, and stitches. I had a horrible childbirth experience and would rather have a c-section. Do you all support that choice?”
    Absolutely. The birth is the hardest point in my opinion to justify from a pro-life point of view. Anything that can be done to reduce the damage and/or pain to the mother and/or baby is not only “okay” but is preferable as long as the procedure attempts to preserve the most life.

  90. Asitis: “I have a friend who gave a baby up for adoption decades ago. It’s still hard for her.”
    Im not sure what the exact context of this particular debate is, but I want to address the general idea.
    Abortion is not wrong because it is the more long term damaging choice for the mother. It is wrong because it violates the rights of another human without just enough cause. In a nutshell, it has no bearing on the debate whether or not adoption is difficult for the mother. Adoption is preferable to death for the other human involved, and if it isnt, it is up to that human to decide that.
    That said, a person who would conciously rather see someone dead than deal with his/her departure is a sick individual.

  91. Can anyone point me to a critic of Dr. Tiller who is both knowledgable and pro-choice?

  92. It’s not good that there could be a potential pay cut for crisis pregnancy centers. Obviously, they higher as many nurses as they can and as many professionals as they can, but they are so strapped for cash that they only make due with what they can. Maybe a better solution would be to give them the money and resources that they need to help women? I mean, we can at least all agree of the wonderful nature of crisis pregnancy centers- they support choice and life. They give women choices that lead to life and liberty for all. This is one of those common ground sort of things that we can all support so perhaps we ought to start asking the government to help them pay for better care for women. I mean, we can all agree on this crucial matter and lead to progress in children’s rights. :).

  93. I disagree with you Oliver. I have a very high pain tolerance and did without drugs for all four of my babies. The panting and breathing and counting was the HARDEST part for me. The PUSHING was the best because I finally got to DO something.
    I believe that women can and should make their own choices about drugs or no drugs but to have a c section because of how hard it might be doesn’t give one much of a chance to see the amazing things their body can do. It’s called labor for a reason. :)

  94. I guess we have to agree to disagree. I just want to see fewer babies sacrificed upon the alter of convenience. If there is something to make the pregnancy easier for a particular woman, even if it is only psychological, I am fine with it as long as that mother doesnt harm her child.

  95. “Just think, you could have turned out like Hal who deep down regrets aborting his two daughters but now finds himself not being man enough to admit it and instead spends all his time defending abortion. He leads a truly tragic life because it doesn’t have to be like that..”
    Looking for an argument HisMan?

  96. Oliver, honestly, I hear all the time that c-sections are easier. As someone who has had six natural childbirths and has assisted in both vaginal and c-section deliveries, I am so very glad that the technology is there to save babies and mothers who would otherwise be at risk… but it IS major abdominal surgery and is not without risks of its own.
    Women need to be educated on how to handle labor and delivery (and agreed, the pushing is the easy part) so that they and their doctor can make the healthiest choice for them. There will always be doctors willing to do elective c-sections, but people need to know that the recovery is much longer than with a vag birth… after my births I am up running around (and I mean running, I get a HUGE rush of energy after a quick rest period after the birth… both high energy and high hunger… I could eat a banquet at that point! LOL) within a couple of hours. C-section moms may just be getting the sensation back to their toes at that point…
    Like I said, it’s amazing, lifesaving technology, but it’s not meant to be done for trivial reasons.

  97. DelphiOracle: And I wonder just why exactly Tiller is addicted to surgical pain killers. Could it just POSSIBLY be that his conscience gets the best of him now and then?
    BTW…his trial begins today.

  98. I don’t have to go through hours of agonizing pain only to tear so bad I can’t sit up for months to know how amazing the body can be. I see no point in pain. It is called labor for a reason, and that’s why I want to avoid it.

  99. Labour is much easier today–so my mother said–than it was millennia ago when this well-known statement was uttered:
    “Whenever a woman is in travail she has sorrow, because her hour has come; but when she gives birth to the child, she remembers the anguish no more, for joy that a child has been born into the world.”

  100. People like Zombie are why I don’t support parental consent laws; the same logic can be used to force a minor to abort if her parents want her to abort. I do support parental notification with enough notice to make sure it’s not after-the-fact, and even the ability for girls to get a judicial bypass (so long as that isn’t a rubber stamp). But I would think that the issues that would require her not to tell her parents would require some sort of intervention anyway–ie, if the pregnancy resulted from abuse or she would face abuse if the parents found out about pregnancy or abortion.
    And I agree that adoption is very, very hard. But I don’t see how abortion is easier unless the person is in denial. And now, with more open adoptions being standard, I would think it would be easier. And I think that adoptions should be as open as possible. Adoption does not exist for the sake of the adoptive parents, and anyone who wants to adopt should realize that (but also that they are not “doing a favor” to their child by adopting him). Adoption occurs because 1) a child needs a home and 2) parents want another child in their family to love.
    Don’t like circumcision? Don’t have one.
    Or alternately:
    Don’t like circumcision? Don’t circumcize your son or husband.
    And I agree that most gynecological exams are really awful. I avoid it whenever possible. And I certainly wouldn’t want anyone performing one on my daughter unless there were a very good reason, even once she is older.

  101. YCW, gynocological exams suck, yeah. But they’re extremely important to a woman’s health, especially regular pap smears. I would encourage you to at least get one once a year to preserve your health- your daughter probably won’t need to start (unless she is sexually active) until she is around 25-30 or if she is experiencing problems with her reproductive system (ie. constant irregular menstruation.)

  102. Erin, I agree that gynocological exams are very important.
    As an aside, I’ve noticed lately that I have been hearing of a lot more women with cervical cancer. I doubt the prevelance has skyrocketted within the last few years, so I’m thinking that maybe the introduction of the vaccine made people more aware which prompted more testing and earlier discovery?
    Though I am against mandatory vaccination, I would be happy if increase awarness has lead to earlier detection and better survival rates for cervical cancer.
    The only thing that worries me is that people in monogomous relationships will think they are “safe” from cervical cancer and not get tested reguarly. Even though most cases occur as a result of HPV, not all do. Because of this, it is important for every woman to get a yearly pap-test!

  103. Jess, is this something that has happened to you? Or something you think will happen to you? Because there are a lot of things within your power to do to keep from tearing like that (most notably, not allowing the doctor to do a “little cut” to prevent said tearing… fastest way to a fourth degree tear, that is!)
    I just don’t think that women should assume that they are going to have unbearable pain or that they will necessarily tear. Neither is a given. (I’ve never had either.)
    RE: pap smears… very important once sexually active, even with a monogamous partner. As Lauren states, not all cases of cervical cancer arise from HPV. I am not a fan of the vaccine at all because I feel that it has not been tested thoroughly enough and doesn’t offer the benefits that it claims. (It only protects against a couple of forms of HPV, not all of them, and I think that there will be women who will neglect basic yearly exams thinking they are “safe”. In addition, there have been girls in Australia, where they first introduced it, who have suffered extreme side effects to the vaccine. It was rushed through approval, and my daughters are not guinea pigs.)
    On a side note, I choose not to give my children the varicella vaccine. It is a horrible vaccine that pushes chicken pox out of the juvenile population into the adult population where it does the most harm (there are no long term studies that show precisely when the effects wear off, but it does NOT offer permanent immunity and requires periodic booster shots for life.) In addition, the vaccine was developed using the cells from aborted fetuses, so I simply will not go along with using it in my children.

  104. Many people don’t. If people really knew what was in or was used to develop vaccines, they’d treat them as the serious medicine they are and not inject them into their children without thought of the consequences.
    Vaccines, in and of themselves, can be very valuable. They are however, not without risks as it is normally portrayed. This leads to the conspiracy fears and paranoia displayed by people who know that something isn’t right, that their child was hurt in some way… or who just aren’t comfortable with the idea that there is no risk whatsoever… but the powers that be are so afraid of admitting that anything could go wrong that their denial comes across as a confirmation of even the most extreme conspiracy theory.
    In addition, very few people are told at the outset how vaccines are manufactured. Some are manufactured using chicken eggs (no big deal, unless the child happens to be allergic to eggs. Then it is a really, really big deal… ) many contain aluminum, formaldehyde and other toxins. (Most mercury has, thankfully, now been removed.)

  105. TheDelphicOracle,
    Then let’s hear what the women, former patients, whom he’s served have had to say. Based on shared personal experience and reactions to the Tiller trial from women at the PASS Support Boards, I would say his former patients don’t think too highly of him. (Board rules prohibt linking to posts or quoting posts, but I’m sure you could find the thread if you searched long enough). And keep in mind, these aren’t necessarily women who are pro-life or even personally opposed to abortion, but former patients of his.

  106. Posted by: Jess at March 22, 2009 6:32 PM
    Since we are talking about pain and discomfort I am wondering how pro-lifers feel about elective c-sections to avoid contractions, severe pushing, tearing/episiotomies, and stitches. I had a horrible childbirth experience and would rather have a c-section. Do you all support that choice?
    ——————————————————
    Jess,
    You forgot the painful itching and burning of hemorrhoids.
    But that is nothing compared to this:
    Second and third trimester abortionist Leroy Carhhart testifying under oath while being questioned by his own attorney.
    Question: What do you do then?
    Carhart: My normal course would be to dismember that extremity and then go back and try to take the [human] fetus out either foot or skull first, whatever end I can get to first.
    Question: How do you go about dismembering that extremity?
    Carhart: Just traction and rotation, grasping the portion that you can get a hold of which would be usually somewhere up the shaft of the exposed portion of the [human] fetus, pulling down on it through the os, using the internal os as your counter-traction and rotating to dismember the shoulder or the hip or whatever it would be. Sometimes you will get one leg and you can’t get the other leg out.
    Question: In that situation, are you, when you pull on the arm and remove it, is the [human] fetus still alive?
    Carhart: Yes.
    Question: In that situation, are you, when you pull on the arm and remove it, is the [human] fetus still alive?
    Carhart: Yes
    Question: Do you consider an arm, for example, to be a substantial portion of the [human] fetus?
    Carhart: In the way I read it, I think if I lost my arm, that would be a substantial loss to me. I think I would have to interpret it that way.
    Question: And then what happens next after you remove the arm? You then try to remove the rest of the [human] fetus?
    Carhart: Then I would go back and attempt to either bring the feet down or bring the skull down, or even sometimes you bring the other arm down and remove that also and then get the feet down.
    Question: Let’s take the situation where you haven’t divided the cord because you couldn’t, and you have begun to remove a living [human] fetus feet first. What happens next after you have gotten the feet removed?
    Carhart: We remove the feet and continue with traction on the feet until the abdomen and the thorax came through the cavity. At that point, I would try … you have to bring the shoulders down, but you can get enough of them outside, you can do this with your finger outside of the uterus, and then at that point the [human] fetal … the base of the [human] fetal skull is usually in the cervical canal.
    Question: What do you do next?
    Carhart: And you can reach that, and that’s where you would rupture the [human] fetal skull to some extent and aspirate the contents out.
    Question: At what point in that process does [human] fetal demise occur between initial remove…removal of the feet or legs and the crushing of the skull, or I’m sorry, the decompressing of the skull?
    Carhart: Well, you know, again, this is where I’m not sure what [human] fetal demise is. I mean, I honestly have to share your concern, your Honor. You can remove the cranial contents and the [human] fetus will still have a heartbeat for several seconds or several minutes, so is the [human] fetus alive? I would have to say probably, although I don’t think it has any brain function, so it’s brain dead at that point.
    Question: So the brain death might occur when you begin suctioning out of the cranium?
    Carhart: I think brain death would occur because the suctioning to remove contents is only two or three seconds, so somewhere in that period of time, obviously not when you penetrate the skull, because people get shot in the head and the don’t die immediately from that, if they are going to die at all, so that probably is not sufficient to kill the [human] fetus, but I think removing the brain contents eventually will.
    Later under cross examination from the Attorney General’s counsel, Carhart stated:
    “My intent in every abortion I have ever done is to kill the [human] fetus and terminate the pregnancy.”
    I want to see you top that experience in the ‘pain’ department.
    yor bro ken

  107. Posted by: asitis at March 22, 2009 10:54 AM
    I have a friend who gave a baby up for adoption decades ago. It’s still hard for her.
    ——————————————————
    So, if she had killed her child after he/she was birthed do you expect us to believe it would be less ‘hard’ for her?
    If she had killed her child before it was birthed, do you really think your friend would feel better than she does now, after allowing her child to live and enjoy a family who ‘chose’ him/her.
    Then of course you would have to ask the child today if he/she would have rather not been birthed and instead ‘snuffed’ en utero.
    yor bro ken

  108. If I was a virgin when I married, and married a virgin, as I understand it, I have no chance of developing HPV, the sexually transmitted disease which causes cervical cancer. (Or if I had only had sex with my husband before marriage, and he had only had sex with me.)
    I’m not saying this to put down those who do need pap smears because they were not virgins before they married; and I am not claiming to be perfect, because this was only by the grace of God; but I am not going to submit to a painful, intrusive, unnecessary procedure.
    I’m hoping to avoid an episiotomy next time by insisting I be allowed to move rather than lying on my back. Hannah came out as soon as the scissors were out of the way, but it was the only thing that took over a week to heal, and getting stitched was worse than pushing the baby out.
    Frankly, I think I would prefer to give birth to my children in the privacy of my own home with the help of my husband, just like I conceived them. But next time I want to at least look more into homebirth with a midwife or birthing centers. I’ve pointed out to my husband, “Do you really want me hesitating at the last minute because I don’t want to be in the hospital?”
    Considering the idea of calling a doctor sets my heart racing, the concern is justified.

  109. YCW,
    I never had a homebirth but have lots of friends who have. They have found amazing midwives and doulas. My last boy was a waterbirth. AMAZING! Wish I would have known about that sooner! :)

  110. HPV is not the only thing that causes cervical cancer. And at the annual exam, more is tested for than just HPV. Avoiding the annual OB exam because it is uncomfortable is really shortsighted. Cancers of the reproductive organs (cervix, uterus, ovaries) are swift moving and difficult to diagnose. Don’t make it harder by avoiding an admittedly unpleasant annual appointment.

  111. I don’t think I’d want a homebirth, but I’m a big fan of birthing centers. It took some convincing for my partner, who fretted for months about potential complications etc, before really looking into it and getting to a point where he’s at least willing to consider it. I’m not pregnant, btw, we just talk about these things for fun, haha.
    Elisabeth, I have a question for you, in that line of thought. You said that your sons are not circumcised but your husband is, correct? How did your husband come to the decision not to circumcise? Did he feel that way already when you met him? Did you change his mind? I would really not want to circumcise my son, but my partner is circumcised and I don’t know how to approach the issue without making him feel insecure or defensive.
    We talk a lot about issues related to raising children. Usually he eventually comes to agree with me — not because I’m “right” or because I like hound him until he agrees, but more commonly because I have researched such issues more whereas he has just assumed that widespread cultural assumptions are correct or are widespread for a good reason. So usually I say, “Well, I feel this way, and this is why,” and maybe show him some literature or information on both sides, and nine times out of ten he eventually agrees, if not with me completely then enough to be willing to compromise or consider re-thinking his opinion. But I don’t know how to approach circumcision, because it’s so personal to him for obvious reasons, and I don’t want him to feel like I’m judging him or his parents or expressing any discontent, etc.

  112. Oh, never mind, I thought someone had said that they had uncircumcised sons and a circumcised husband, and I thought it was you — but now I can’t seem to find it at all. Sorry!

  113. Nope, Steve is British… they don’t use RIC. Very much uncirc’d.
    Has your hubby expressed any particular reasons he wants any sons circ’d? You need to listen to what he says and his reasons and be understanding… and then respond with facts. There are some great threads on babycenter.com in the community section under The Debate Team or on the circ/no circ board.

  114. Oh, thanks for replying anyway! We haven’t discussed it much; his reasons are what you generally hear. He thinks it’s more hygienic, and the thing about STI transmission. I mostly just don’t know how to counter that with my own opinions without making him feel defensive. Most of the things like this that we discuss are theoretical, at this point — but this one is very personal, so I’m just having a hard time figuring out how to approach the issue.

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