Pro-life activists revisit police hoser’s church
UPDATE, 4:27p: Todd Bullis needs more video cameras to document his pro-life church efforts. “As long as they are digital cameras, they are good.” Todd emailed. “They can even be old used ones as long as they can connect to a usb drive.” Can you help? Email Todd at todd@abortionWoes.com
UPDATE, 1:34p: Todd has posted video of his group’s protest yesterday. With the song in the background, it’s haunting.
At about 3:30 you see church leaders guarding against their flock seeing the reality of abortion.
At about 5:30 you see that man Todd wrote about in his email approach them, and Jim Deck try to turn him back.
This is an example of so much of America’s church. So disturbing. I think this video will used as an historical example of the church’s silence on the holocaust of abortion.
9:29a: Read backstory here and here.
Pro-life activist Todd Bullis and his troupe took Easter weekend off for personal family and worship time.
But they were back at the First Assembly of God Church in Ventura, CA, yesterday to admonish its leaders to more proactively educate their congregation about the abortion issue as well as support the pro-life effort through such actions as financially supporting the local pregnancy crisis center, for instance….
Here is Todd’s email report:
One man came out of First Assembly Church today to talk to us. He said hi as he walked up to us, and that he liked our “church repent” sign.
At that point Associate Pastor Jim Deck [pictured right] came up to him and asked him not to talk to us, putting his hand on this fellow’s shoulder and attempting to turn him away.
This kind man said no to Jim and turned back to us. Then Jim stood between him and us and said, “You do not know what is going on here.” The man responded, “Yes, I do, and I can stand here and look at the signs if I want to.”
Jim said again, “You don’t understand,” and the man answered, “I do understand, and you should invite these men inside the church and listen to them.”
Jim started to walk away and the man said, “You I do not trust.” Jim stopped and turned to the man and said, “What?” The man repeated, “I do not trust you.” Jim walked away.
This man than looked at me with eyes welling with tears. He said a few weeks ago a guest pastor preached how the church is not living up to its calling. “Then next week you guys show up with your signs,” he continued. “Our church should have invited you in, but instead we turned the hose on you.
His eyes were tearing, and his heart was so loving. I saw Christ in him.
As Jim Deck and 4 or 5 of his men stood but 20 feet away, I asked this man If I could give him a hug. His face lit up, and I got one of the biggest hugs I have had in years.
The man said, “I will hear about this later I am sure, but that is ok.”
The man looked at each one of our signs as if in respect for the dead, as if he were repenting. Then he went over and talked to the 4 or 5 of Jim Deck’s most holy. He then got in to his car, and as he drove past he yelled, “Yeah, Todd!”
How this man had blessed me and my family is beyond words. This was the first true act of kindness this church had shown us. This man heart was so loving.
What a blessed day we had. God is so good.
Todd, you and your group have blessed my day.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
That’s good news Todd.
Let’s all pray for this church.
Wow! I thought as I read this post that the pastor and his flock were more interested in protecting their status quo than being honest with themselves.
I watched the Dairy of Anne Frank last night and again during that holocaust how many churches conducted business as usual. Not the same thing? Are you sure?
I also thought of the Pharisees during the time of Jesus who did not want him to upset their status quo and urged His Crucifixion.
Assembly of God is typically a pro life denomination but the Church at large needs to be called to repent that some have joined the pro abortion ranks, most have decided not to get involved and turn their head the other way and ignore the issue….
God Bless Todd, and God Bless that man for standing up to the ‘so-called’ pastor! God will BLESS both of you for taking a STAND FOR LIFE! :)
Those who look away from the TRUTH about abortion are no better than those in the crowd that yelled “Crucify Him!”
Blessed my day too!
Fight on, Todd!
God bless, Todd. May the Holy Spirit inspire many hearts to repent based upon your work. May the Church awake with a fire in its belly to do the work of Christ.
So many people talk about how the Bible says that the Gates of Hell will not prevail against Christ’s followers. Most people take that as an assurance that we can hunker down and be safe from the world… far from it!
The GATES of Hell do not move. They are GATES… we should be assailing the gates of Hell. Only then can the promise be fulfilled.
Again, Todd, God bless you for assailing the gates of Hell by awaking Christ’s slumbering followers!
God bless the man who had the courage to speak up and welcome Todd!
Actually, as pro-life as I may be, I don’t agree that we should be going to churches and interfering with their worship services to try to turn them into activists. The central purpose of the church is preach the gospel and administer the sacraments. Not social activism. Yes, that arises out of the changed lives in the churches. But we should not be trying to dictate what other churches say or do. Do you want that turn around on us when leftist religious folks picket our churches for their causes?
Time and place.
Punisher, I fail to see how he interfered with worship services.
He wasn’t making noise and disrupting the service.
He wasn’t blocking the drive.
He wasn’t even on church property, he was on the public byways.
The service was able to continue without any interference from Todd’s group.
The Bible contains The 10 Commandments. That illustrates that a certain degree of responsibility within the church-one of its primary functions-is to give basic moral direction to its members. If abortion isn’t a failing of the church in this area, I can’t imagine what would be. Kudos to Todd for trying to remind the church about a very important job it is obviously neglecting.
Punisher,
Pls read the backstory:
“Todd’s mission is to rouse churches in his ministry area to become more proactive in opposing abortion by picketing 1 church a week.”
..I don’t think they’re interfering with the services by praying quitely outside with the signs nor dictating what churches say or do…
The idea is to let the churchgoers be aware of the reality of what abortion is…
Case in point, the man was never asked to go in
and persuade others nor hold the signs…he was shown the truth (as was the asst. pastor) it is now up to him to choose what happens next.
From the looks of it, the asst. pastor still wants to hide the truth…the man, on the other hand,wanted Todd and his group to come into the church and continue proclaiming the truth.
Time and place? Sure. But in today’s culture, abortion support is everywhere hence the Truth needs to be told everywhere, too.
We’re on the same side…just a different perspective.
God bless.
“Actually, as pro-life as I may be, I don’t agree that we should be going to churches and interfering with their worship services to try to turn them into activists.”
WHAT!?!?!
Punisher! With a name like that (which I must admit I’m a little jealous of) I’d expect you to be calling fire and brimstone down on those religious hypocrites!
I can assure you that Jesus Christ Himself would love to show up at that Church, interrupt their “worship” service and turn them into activists.
THE TRUE CHURCH IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT ACTIVISM. THE WORLD IS LOST, DYING AND GOING TO HELL. GOD WANTS HIS CHURCH TO ACTIVELY CALL THE WORLD AND THE APOSTATE CHURCH TO REPENT. WE’RE SUPPOSED TO BE SALT AND LIGHT, EXPOSING THE DARKNESS, TURNING THE WORLD UPSIDE DOWN, LIKE THE BOOK OF ACTS!
Sorry for shouting. X-Girl’s post got me all excited and worked up.
I mean when a professing atheist gets it and starts preaching better than the Christians…
Keep preachin’ X-Girl!!!
The greek word that is translated ‘church’ in the new testament is ‘eklesia’. ‘eklesia’ predated the birth of Christ and in it’s original useage referred to a deliberative body in a community. Think of todays city or county council in America.
‘eklesia’ literally means ‘called out ones’. Followers of Jesus were ‘called out of darkness into HIS marvelous light’.
The men who recorded the gospels and penned the letters to the body of Christ in the first century after Jesus resurection had no ‘concept’ of what we know today as ‘church’. But they knowingly and deliberately choice the greek word ‘eklesia’ to refer to the church because they knew it best described what the ‘body of Christ’ is supposed to be in the earth.
As, members of HIS body we have been ‘called out’ and set apart/sanctified to be a visible expression of an invisible kingdom, the kingdom of GOD.
We are not called to replace, overthrow or war against the kingdoms of this world but we are called to ‘be’ who we are called to be. Salt and light, a fragrance of LIFE, a city set on a hill.
When the apostles of the Lamb communicated to the family of believers in different towns they would address the letter to the ‘eklesia’ at Rome or Corinth, or Philipi.
They understood that there is only one Spirt, one LORD, one body of which we all partake.
The body of Christ is NOT divided!
‘church’ as we know it today is an aberation, a perversion, a counterfeit. Though the body of Christ is the the ‘institutional church’ it is not ‘church’.
Todd Bullis is bumping into ‘church’ and ‘church’ does not like it. He is goring the golden cow and threatening the status quo.
If ‘church’ was the real deal they would bring charges against Todd and give him his day in the court of the eklesia and Todd’s accusers would have to put up or shut up according to the process outlined in Matthew 18.
I pray that this will happen. It will be painful to those who have labored so hard and long to prop up that which can never stand on it’s own, but it will be beneficial to the building up of the body of Christ.
It is in the ‘book’. Ask God to disabuse of false knowledge. That is prayer HE will honor. But with knowledge of the TRUTH comes great responsibility.
yor bro ken
Well said kbhvac.
I would add that where Todd “protested” is actually the local assembly, i.e., where individual members of the body of Christ come to meet and have fellowship. He did not protest at a “church”. The church is not a building or a place.
The local assembly is where the body is to be encouraged, exhorted, rebuked and corrected if need be.
If pastors are not doing what they are called to do as described above, guess what? God sends in an Isaiah type who has proclaimed, “here am I send me”.
God is no respecter of persons and just because someone bears the title of pastor does not give him the right to restrain God’s word and wrath against the horrendous evil of abortion.
If I were the pastor of any local assembly where Todd has been sent by God to protest, the first thing I would do would be to look inwardly and ask why God has done this.
Teachers are held to a much higher standard and will be judged more severely.
I’m not surprised at the actions of this church. The concern of many churches today is MONEY and not alienating their parishoners. I believe in God, but I was turned off by organized religion a long time ago.
Thanks for the prayers. When we showed up to the church they had about 8 guys standing at the entrance of the drive way. They would not talk with me but it was cool because it made it seem like we had a ton more people there. After a while they only had three guys in the drive way and a church member drove up and asked them if they were the 3 stooges or the 3 monkeys, Here no evil, See no Evil and Speak no Evil.
My son asked me “what does he mean the 3 Monkeys” I told him it sounded a little prophetic to me.
Hey Phil when we going to talk.
“Thank God for Todd” I am blessed to see you back at the same church again! I watched your video taken at “Reality Church” (there is an oxymoron for you!)& the discussion with the pastors is pretty typical of the church’s blindness regarding abortion. It made me heartsick! I am glad you got it on tape! The Lord has certainly called you for this time Todd!
Great title.
People keep asking me who signs that song??? Well it is the great Dominic Balli. He is a great Godly artist.
http://www.dominicballi.com/
Posted by: Todd Bullis at April 12, 2010 1:13 PM
“Hey Phil when we going to talk.”
————————————————–
Todd,
I would love to exhange some information with you.
If you send an email to Carla, Bambino or Bethany they will forward it on to me and we can communicated directly.
yor bro ken
What did this poor church do to deserve this continued harassment? Seriously? Did the pastor run over this guy’s dog or something? There has to be thousands of churches in California and this one in particular is being attacked over and over. I bet Todd doesn’t protest in front of Catholic churches–guess he doesn’t care about the constant child abuse, just as long as they say the right thing about a certain social issue.
Continued harrassment? Oh yes, he was there TWICE.
And CONSTANT child abuse? Oh, really? Walk into every Catholic church in the world and there is child abuse happening 24-7?
You really are pathetic.
What this church did was to value it’s “comfort level” more highly than the lives of innocent children.
Hey kbhvac or bro ken.
I dont have Carla, Bambino or Bethany eamil address, how do i get it? my email is todd@abortionwoes.com
Most of us here aren’t even Catholic (heck, some aren’t even Christians) and this is a case of a non-Catholic picketing a non-Catholic church.
Cite proof that any of us have condoned actual abuse of children by any perpetrator.
Anyone who has my info:
I need to talk to someone.
Thanks in advance, everyone, and thank you for always having been there and been supportive when I’ve needed you in the past, even to a (sometimes hostile) stranger like me.
X – I don’t have your info, but you can email me at ellahalligan@live.com and I’ll give you my number.
Dear Anne.
I just want you to know the church is fine. God is birthing a new work in them. A few of their members are now coming to me and telling me that I am right and this church needs this wake up call. Things are moving in the right direction. I plan on staying at this church until God shows me its time to move to another Church. I will keep you updated ok Anne.
For Todd or X,
carla@jillstanek.com
:)
Praying for you, X. You are very special to us here.
Posted by: Elisabeth at April 12, 2010 5:05 PM
Apparently every single one of you has condoned it, using the same “silence is acceptance” standard that Todd Bullis, who is seen as some kind of folk hero here, has used to indict the churches he protests in front of.
Prove I have been silent on the issue of child abuse. (Note, not mentioning it on one specific forum that is about a completely different issue is not proof.)
Oh, that’s easy. Todd has already posted all of the proof… he attempted to discuss it privately with the pastor prior to his actions. The pastor flat out stated that this was not something that his church cared to have anything to do with. You can find the links where it says “read the backstory” on this page.
That was easy! Done.
Xalisae: Wary about posting my e-mail address in case the trolls come out in full force, but I’m e-mailing mine to Carla if you want to get it from her. I hope everything is going to be okay.
I think Carla already has my e-mail address, too. We’re here for you,Xalisae.
Ditto from me, Xalisae.
I think Carla already has my e-mail address, too. We’re here for you,Xalisae.
Posted by: Pamela at April 12, 2010 6:31 PM
Xalisae,
Please, feel free to e-mail me! (Click my name, and then click on the picture in my profile; there’ll be a link to my e-mail address!) You take priority over a lot of the other nonsense that’s had me busy, these past weeks…
Ahhh, our resident Fred Phelps is back! I was hoping that he had decided to go to church on Sunday mornings, or maybe volunteer to help somewhere… Nope – for the glory of ONESELF!
Anne,
Do you seriously have nothing better to do than troll a group whose views are diametrically opposed to yours? Why on earth are you still here? You’re free to do so, of course, but for crying out loud… it’s like watching a kid eat raw liver, over and over, watching him grimace, spit it out, vomit, and then screech his displeasure and outrage to everyone within hearing distance (with roughly the same attention to logic)… only to repeat, ad nauseum. What’s the point?
Paladin – that’s funny – I read your post quick and didn’t see the “Anne” part – and thought, “wow, that’s the best response I’ve seen to Todd so far!”
Ooops – no, you didn’t mean him going to a group who’s views are different.
My bad!
Thank you all for (another) outpouring of support. My appreciation for you all goes far beyond what my words are able to express.
EGV wrote:
Ahhh, our resident Fred Phelps is back! I was hoping that he had decided to go to church on Sunday mornings, or maybe volunteer to help somewhere… Nope – for the glory of ONESELF!
EGV, I think it’s official: too much politics is decaying your brain. Go on a decent retreat for a while. Unplug your TV. Cancel your subscription to the DNC Weekly, the RNC weekly, the Green Party Weekly, the Raelean Party Weekly, and anything else that could possibly be sucking common sense from your mind like a vacuum hose. Do something. But your comments have gone from acerbic to vituperous to… well… just plain sad. How many pointless and baseless repetitions of “he’s being prideful, because I say so” do you have to spout, before you can finally let it go?
A slight parody, to illustrate the point:
“Ahhh, our resident Chris Matthews is back! I was hoping that he had decided to go to church on Sunday mornings, or maybe volunteer at a Crisis Pregnancy Center to help reduce abortions, rather than leave inflammatory comments on blogs… but nope – all for the glory of HIMSELF!”
(Is it really to hard for you to understand that Todd might, in addition to what he feels to be a specific calling, actually dabble in one or two other things–like pray, volunteer, raise his family, etc.? Calumny and rash judgment are still sins, last time I checked.)
For RINO’s benefit:
The Bible contains The 10 Commandments. That illustrates that a certain degree of responsibility within the church-one of its primary functions-is to give basic moral direction to its members. If abortion isn’t a failing of the church in this area, I can’t imagine what would be. Kudos to Todd for trying to remind the church about a very important job it is obviously neglecting.
Posted by: xalisae at April 12, 2010 11:21 AM
Glory enters into this nowhere, unless you think the heart of the situation is Todd trying to “steal” glory away from the pulpit, which if that is the case, you’re misguided, since the person at the pulpit shouldn’t be expecting or getting glory in the first place. He’s just the messenger.
Dear Ex-GOP
Just so you know I dedicate most of my Sunday mornings to be with people who do not agree with me. My heart is for them, people just like you who do not understand that the church has the power to end the killing of these kids. Again my city has over 100 churches and less than 10 of them provide support for the local Christian Crisis Pregnancy Center. I truly believe that in my town, our churches, our body is ignoring the abortion issue.
Here are some facts about my town of Ventura. Please remember that our CPC only has enough money to keep the doors open 4 days a week and only for 4 hours a day.
Ventura County is a county in the southern part of the U.S. state of California (Southern California). It is located on California’s Pacific coast. It is often referred to as the Gold Coast, and has a reputation of being one of the safest populated places and one of the most affluent places in the country. It is ranked as one of the 100 highest-income counties in the country and as the sixth wealthiest county in California
I live here in Ventura and I am ashamed of our Churches who do nothing about this issue. Men like you Ex-GOP are part of the problem. I hope you search your heart. Have you seen an abortion yet and asked God what he thinks and feels about this?
Is there no call to action in you? Is your heart Stone? Can you only Lash out? Where is your love?
We all pray for you Ex-GOP maybe some day you will change your log in name to Ex-StoneHeart.
I suppose I should anticipate nothing less than judgment from you. “Men like you”… – you don’t know my name, my income status, where I donate to, my denomination, heck, even my state – but you are okay calling me “part of the problem”.
Part of the problem, in my eyes, is in a non-Christian nation, we have decisive Christians running around for their own glory instead of building each other up and working for unity. That’s what I see as a big problem. A couple of punks spraying water and yelling “call the cops”, “I’m going to sue” sure shows a non-Christian world what Christianity is all about!
My love is for Christ first – I don’t buy into the idolatry of an issue. Yes, items like abortion are very important, but the pursuit of the cross is more important.
Here’s my question for all Todd’s supporters out there? If Todd is truly a saint and doing something you see as fabulous, how many of you are protesting your own church and churches in your area?
Todd – also, which one in the video is your pastor? What church do you go to?
Last question Todd – do you think the church you just picketed should shut down it’s Miracle program and divert the money? What’s your target for their giving?
I wonder if you would have protested Jesus on the cross – I mean heck, he didn’t say a WORD about abortion on the cross to our knowledge – I mean, he was busy saving the souls of the world…but that isn’t good enough for you, now is it Todd?
Come on Paladin – Phelps isn’t a political figure. I think it’s a fair comparison.
Two people who call themselves Christians have pet issues that they use shock value to promote, often times in the face and directly at other Christians. Both video tape themselves and love drama and conflict.
No?
I mean, Todd’s signs are more colorful – but the rest seems to fit.
EGV wrote:
Come on Paladin – Phelps isn’t a political figure.
Oh, really?
“Phelps has run in various Kansas Democratic Party primaries five times, but has never won. These included races for governor in 1990, 1994, and 1998, receiving about 15 percent of the vote in 1998.[57] In the 1992 Democratic Party primary for U.S. Senate, Phelps received 31 percent of the vote.[58] Phelps ran for mayor of Topeka in 1993[59] and 1997.[60]”
Curious background for a “non-political figure”, I’d say. You have strange, esoteric, self-made definitions on that point, and on many others.
Two people who call themselves Christians
Had you but stopped here, your analogy would have been flawless.
have pet issues
Unlike you, I assume? Your definition of “pet issue” seems to be 1% substance, 99% agenda. I.e. You don’t like it, so you use the diminutive “pet issue”; “calling” or “mission” or “objective” would give it far too much gravitas for your purposes, eh?
that they use shock value
I really would appreciate you working in a proof of your position that “use of shocking things is intrinsically wrong”, someday…
to promote, often times in the face
This is slipping into ridiculous and cheap theatre, sir… ironically enough, given your topic matter. Perhaps you might give some evidence of the “in the face” claim?
and directly at other Christians.
Hm. So you feel that Christians never need to be shocked out of complacency. Our Blessed Lord disagrees with you on that point, at least.
Both video tape themselves
(*wry look*) I’ll be sure to petition the Vatican about adding that to the list of the seven deadly sins…
and love drama and conflict.
That, my dear fellow, is unadulterated bunkum. It is your own baseless, calumnious and ignorant opinion, rehashed to the n-th degree. You haven’t a scrap of evidence for it, save in your own emotions and passions, and you cheapen your own commentary with every repetition.
I mean, Todd’s signs are more colorful – but the rest seems to fit.
…to one, such as you, who is disposed to believe nothing to the contrary, I suppose it would. I’d add that you’re quite nearly alone in thinking so, and you’ve left sane reason quite far behind while thinking it.
(Note from above: I *did* mis-spell “Raëlian”; I do beg pardon, for that.)
Oh… and Phelps is a Democrat, btw.
Paladin –
You are right on the politics (though I don’t think most think of him as a political figure) – my bad though.
“Pet issue” comment – okay, I’ll go with your wording – both think they have a “mission” or “calling”.
Shock comment – I’m not saying that shocking is bad – PETA uses it – Todd uses it – Phelps uses it. I’m not saying, nor did I say it was bad – I said both use it. So when you say “had you stopped there” – well, the next two points are really not debatable (that they both think they have a calling, and they both use shock value tactics).
Promote in the face…I’ll get back to that.
At other Christians – again, you are saying that I’m giving that a value statement as right or wrong. I’m just saying they both do that. Do you not agree?
Both love drama and conflict – Okay, I’ll admit that I don’t know their hearts in regards to what they love. But both go into the public spotlight – videotape their “mission” – send the videotapes to others to post (or post them themselves), go to other newspaper/blogs to “defend” themselves. So maybe they don’t love drama and conflict in their heart – I made a statement based on what I’ve seen. It is nice though that we have a nice new video every once in a while, complete with background music. Oh yes though, “Not a scrap of evidence…”
The colorful signs – you could be right – Phelps does have some colorful signs as well. Maybe that’s a coin flip.
For somebody quite mad at me, I don’t really think you made much of a point in that one on the differences. I mean, for you to say I should have stopped at the beginning, it seems like I hit just about the rest of the list.
Paladin good sir – how have the protests gone in your neighborhood and church?
“I was hoping that he had decided to go to church on Sunday mornings, or maybe volunteer to help somewhere” Ex-GOP at 7:09
Todd is volunteering to help somewhere. He is helping show the Christians that they need to start getting serious to stop the Holocaust of our most innocent citizens. Basically, Todd’s volunteer programs goes something like this: Practice what you Preach or Please Walk the Walk, don’t just Talk the Talk.
Todd, what you’re doing is volunteer work, isn’t it? Or maybe you are being paid a six-figure salary?
Praxedes – do you know if Todd has sent a threshold for how much a church needs to do to stay out of his wrath? If they give $10 a year, is that enough?
I’m wondering if maybe you and I could come up with a morality list – what churches need to do with their time and resources. We could hit the big ones – gay marriage, local food shelves, starvation in Africa – and then we could score churches – and if they come up short – we’ll bring signs to protest and show where the churches shortcomings are.
We need a slogan though.
How about “I know you believe you have a calling from God, but have you checked that against your calling from Ex-GOP and Praxedes”?
I mean, we’re smarter right – we know their calling better than they know their calling.
Darn straight we do!
“do you know if Todd has sent a threshold for how much a church needs to do to stay out of his wrath?”
What does Todd need to do to stay out of yours?
1 “Shout it aloud, do not hold back.
Raise your voice like a trumpet.
Declare to my people their rebellion
and to the house of Jacob their sins.
2 For day after day they seek me out;
they seem eager to know my ways,
as if they were a nation that does what is right
and has not forsaken the commands of its God.
They ask me for just decisions
and seem eager for God to come near them.
3 ‘Why have we fasted,’ they say,
‘and you have not seen it?
Why have we humbled ourselves,
and you have not noticed?’
“Yet on the day of your fasting, you do as you please
and exploit all your workers.
4 Your fasting ends in quarreling and strife,
and in striking each other with wicked fists.
You cannot fast as you do today
and expect your voice to be heard on high.
5 Is this the kind of fast I have chosen,
only a day for a man to humble himself?
Is it only for bowing one’s head like a reed
and for lying on sackcloth and ashes?
Is that what you call a fast,
a day acceptable to the LORD ?
6 “Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice
and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?
7 Is it not to share your food with the hungry
and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
when you see the naked, to clothe him,
and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?
8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn,
and your healing will quickly appear;
then your righteousness [a] will go before you,
and the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard.
9 Then you will call, and the LORD will answer;
you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.
“If you do away with the yoke of oppression,
with the pointing finger and malicious talk,
10 and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry
and satisfy the needs of the oppressed,
then your light will rise in the darkness,
and your night will become like the noonday.
11 The LORD will guide you always;
he will satisfy your needs in a sun-scorched land
and will strengthen your frame.
You will be like a well-watered garden,
like a spring whose waters never fail.
12 Your people will rebuild the ancient ruins
and will raise up the age-old foundations;
you will be called Repairer of Broken Walls,
Restorer of Streets with Dwellings.
13 “If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
and from doing as you please on my holy day,
if you call the Sabbath a delight
and the LORD’s holy day honorable,
and if you honor it by not going your own way
and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,
14 then you will find your joy in the LORD,
and I will cause you to ride on the heights of the land
and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob.”
The mouth of the LORD has spoken.
Sitting in a pew, singing a pretty song, and bowing your head when someone else prays looks nice, but has never been what God calls Holy.
Thanks Todd for doing what God lays on your heart.
I’ll tell you what Praxedes – here’s what he needs to do:
If Todd would just come on this board and say what the threshold is for a church to be “doing enough”. Is it prayer? Is it giving? I’d like to know the definition – seems like it should be fair to throw out.
I’d also like to know then what other issues the church should make sure they spend time/resources on. Surely abortion can’t be the only focus of a church (I mean, unless I misread the Great Commission)- so maybe a breakdown of how a church should spend their time and resources – a pie chart maybe.
Prax – how has the protesting in your town gone? Have you been picketing churches? I mean, you think what Todd is doing is a great thing, right?
Dear Ex-GOP,
yes i go to church, yes i have a pastor. They are making a ton of changes and have said that this campaign has been a lightning rod to his church, waking them up. I thank God for him. My pastor says that he can not support me protesting out in front of other churches but when he gets calls about me than he tells them that it is Todd’s calling and Todd is doing what God calling him to do. He said its not his churches calling but it is Todds.
I also wanted to point out that I dont have to know all about you Ex-Gop I just have to read all your comments. You never answer any of our questions and you are often very flippant and disrespectful. You argue just like a pastor who does not want to deal with the abortion issue. A truly pro life pastor would not protest so much as you.
1. Have you watched the abortion video?
2. Is your church pro Choice?
3. Is your church involved in any type of pro life movement?
4.Who do you think needs more defending the Church or aborted kids?
5.Do you give money to the pro life movement?
Help me understand were you are coming from. I know you hurt for your parents and it makes you lash out but please remember that when we are doing Gods will that sometimes we must suffer and suffering is not always bad as I have found out over the course of my life.
You state that you think the problem here lies in the fact that we are a non-Christian nation but I have to disagree with you. The problem is that most Christian men are preoccupied with this world and no longer feel its important to stand up and be counted.
I bet you counted it joy when I was sprayed in the eyes with vinegar.
I hold no ill will against Jon Hixson or you Ex-Gop like you I will be judged also.
I also wanted to point out that I dont have to know all about you Ex-Gop I just have to read all your comments. You never answer any of our questions and you are often very flippent and disrespectful. You arguee just like a pastor who does not want to deal with the abortion issue.
1. Have you watched the abortion vidoe?
2. Is your church pro Choice?
3. Is your church involved in any type of pro life movement?
4. Who do you think needs more defending the Church or aborted kids?
Dear Ex-Gop.
Here are the three things I would like to see the churches do here in ventura.
1.Financially support Local CPC on a monthly basis. I can not set the amount it maybe different for every church.
2.Preach an in depth comprehensive sermon on abortion during both Sunday services.
3.Urge each family in the church to display a pro life bumper sticker with a toll-free phone number or website URL offering help for women in crisis pregnancy.
4.Help married couples understand the abortifacient properties of many commonly used birth control drugs and devices. Such as IUD cause abortions.
5.Encourage worshipers to donate time and money to the pro life movement.
All of these things are easy to do and should be done by all Christian churches.
What I want to see is movement within the church to promote the Pro Life agenda.
p.s.
I know you dont really want an answer you just want another opportunity to argue why the church need not take up this trivial cause.
Dear Praxedes.
I do not get paid. I do get to see the hand of God touch people. I see hearts soften. I see my kids being blessed by God. The lord gives me good rest and I sleep well. God holds me at night and keeps confirming me.
When I started this I thought I would find no support at all other than Gods and that was enough but than the support flooded in from the prolife movement.
I can say this, it is great to see God in people and see people being used by God for his glory.
“Prax – how has the protesting in your town gone? Have you been picketing churches? I mean, you think what Todd is doing is a great thing, right?”
I would have no problem with people picketing my church. I would be upset if anyone treated them the way Todd was treated. I would invite them in. My church is not doing enough regarding abortion either. I don’t see anything wrong with what Todd is doing but do see the reactions of some church members as very telling. Why do you think what he is doing is wrong? Stats say 1/3 women abort. This has gone on 37 years. When is enough, enough? What is causing a larger Culture of Death in our country? Yes, I am trying to do my part. I have talked with leaders in my church regarding abortion. I will be talking with High School students from my church this week about pro-life issues.
“If Todd would just come on this board and say what the threshold is for a church to be “doing enough”. Is it prayer? Is it giving? I’d like to know the definition – seems like it should be fair to throw out.”
I don’t know what this church is or isn’t doing re: abortion. However, I do know how some church members reacted (because of the video that exposed both sides) and this tells me that there is an obvious need for what Todd is doing. Why does the reality of abortion so anger some Christians? What Christians have or have not been doing for almost 40 years HAS NOT worked? what do you suggest? What have you been doing?
Ed: Punisher! With a name like that (which I must admit I’m a little jealous of) I’d expect you to be calling fire and brimstone down on those religious hypocrites!
Me: There is an old saying: be careful what you wish for.
Ed: I can assure you that Jesus Christ Himself would love to show up at that Church, interrupt their “worship” service and turn them into activists.
Me: I can assure that either you are dead wrong, or Christ and His apostles miss the memo. Not one time did Christ command us to be activists crusading against social wrongs of society (yes, there are principles in the Bible that lead us to take stand on issues, but nowhere is it mandated for each and every believer and church congregation). Not one time Paul preached about us needing to become activists. Sure there were injustices of those days. Infanticides abound back then, too, both before AND after birth. Slavery existed then as well, and it definitely did not follow the OT guidelines set by God, but instead what the pagan Romans allowed to go on with it.
Want to condemn Christ and His apostles for failures to speak out against those social ills?
We are called to live as salt and light, shine by our example for Christ (turning from sin, doing good works, etc.), and go out and share the gospel to others. That’s the extent of what we are commanded to do.
Sure, being activists is indeed the result of following Christ for many, and God does speak about social justice in the OT. But it is never a command for each and every individual believer in the body of Christ to go out there and fight in the frontlines on any given social issue you wish them too.
But the command to us as believers are to be examples by our actions to the rest of the world, like feeding the poor, looking after the orphans and the widows, etc. Or by how we respond to how others treat us.
God’s mandated will for all followers of Christ is revealed in the NT (great commission, being salt and light, etc.). In regards to whether be activists or not, it is refers to God’s will not revealed in His word for NT believers. But it is His will for individual believers, as opposed to all believers. As in callings, professions, roles or places in this world, etc.
You are adding rules for all believers, binding them to what they need to do that nowhere is explicitly commanded to be follower of Christ.
By your own logic, CHRIST AND ALL HIS APOSTLES WERE HYPOCRITES FOR NOT SPEAKING OUT INJUSTICES OF THE DAY.
By adding rules and putting burdens on others, that Christ nowhere commanded, and the apostles nowhere commanded the body of Christ, especially a congregation to do, you are doing something that Christ condemened in the Pharisees.
That’s why I say to you, be careful what you wish for, about me calling hellfire and brimstone down on a church for what you claim is its hypocrisy, since in my theology, you would fall first there.
Ed: THE TRUE CHURCH IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT ACTIVISM.
Me: No, it is not. You are in serious error here. I may even see heretical error that seems and smells social gospel all over it.
Activism is a result of changed hearts and desire to make a difference for Christ. But it is NOT WHAT THE CHURCH IS CENTERED ON.
Nothing in the NT about the followers of Christ being activists to try to change laws in the land they lived in.
What you are espousing here is BASICALLY THE SOCIAL GOSPEL.
It is a FALSE GOSPEL, that replaces the true gospel of Christ’s substitional death for our sins to be forgiven and His rising again that we may have life, with things we need to do as the gospel to change the world.
The church is Christ-centered.
What you preach the church is about is man-centered to the core.
The church is ALL ABOUT CHRIST AND CHRIST CRUCIFIED AND CHRIST RISEN AND CHRIST GLORIFIED.
NOT ACTIVISM.
Activism can have a place in this church but IT CAN NEVER REPLACE THE CHURCH’S MAIN ROLE- THAT IS THE WORD PREACHED AND THE SACRAMENTS GIVEN.
That’s our message to the world.
You are putting activism as more important it seems than the message of the gospel itself!
And that’s where you are in very serious error.
Ed: THE WORLD IS LOST, DYING AND GOING TO HELL. GOD WANTS HIS CHURCH TO ACTIVELY CALL THE WORLD AND THE APOSTATE CHURCH TO REPENT. WE’RE SUPPOSED TO BE SALT AND LIGHT, EXPOSING THE DARKNESS, TURNING THE WORLD UPSIDE DOWN, LIKE THE BOOK OF ACTS!
Me: Oh, the book of Acts nowhere suggest we be activists. It tells us of our need to come to Christ. By faith and repentance. Be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. We must not be reading the same book.
What you preach there is mixing law and gospel.
The law is useless to preached to the lost if it is not accompanied by the gospel and if it does not lead them to Christ. If you get the lost to follow the law you want them to, like on issue of abortion, there’s still a problem: they are STILL LOST. They still don’t know HOW GREAT THEIR SIN IS that needs a Redeemer.
Ed: Sorry for shouting. X-Girl’s post got me all excited and worked up. I mean when a professing atheist gets it and starts preaching better than the Christians…
Me: No, if you have to look to a professing atheist for truth to prove your views of God or inspired by God as the truth of His word, it says alot more about your position than mine.
Don’t get me wrong- I am strongly pro-lifer and I strongly do fight for the right of the unborn.
But I do recognize that is NOT the calling for every single Christians.
If Christians were advocating for right to kill one’s own babies, then that would be DIFFERENT, since they are directly advocating something that would stand against God’s word.
Even then I would not be a nuisance to their churches. I would simply proclaim the truth by various public mediums or forums that all of us have. Called newspapers’ letters to editors, postings online, etc.
Todd: Financially support Local CPC on a monthly basis. I can not set the amount it maybe different for every church.
Me: I have no problem if my church have fliers for that purpose. But if you mean as in command for us to do, I would seriously object.
I have no problem myself donation to causes I find worthy, like prolife ones.
But the moment you put this as a command binding on all believers and churches there is ALOT WRONG WITH WHAT YOU SAY AND DO.
You are adding to God’s word and adding to commands of God to His believers and making it binding on all of us, when there is no such command by God from His word.
Todd: 2.Preach an in depth comprehensive sermon on abortion during both Sunday services.
Me: If the church is all about preaching against social ills, then it is NOT A CHURCH.
It is a social activist group. It is Pelagianism masquarading as Christianity.
Yes, I don’t mind the church taking a stand against abortion, when it is RELEVENT to the sermons and biblical texts at hand.
But the moment abortion becomes the center of the preachings of the church, then it is no longer doing its duty of focusing on its real purpose: pointing people to the cross, showing their sins and their need for the cross, and giving sacraments.
Todd: 3.Urge each family in the church to display a pro life bumper sticker with a toll-free phone number or website URL offering help for women in crisis pregnancy.
Me: Again, that’s for individual Christians to do, when they leave the church doors.
But the role of the church is to preach law and gospel, preach the word, administer the sacraments.
It is not to command and demand folks do things nowhere commanded in Scriptures.
Todd: 4.Help married couples understand the abortifacient properties of many commonly used birth control drugs and devices. Such as IUD cause abortions.
Me: It is one thing to educate married couples if they ask.
It is another to make the church’s focus on that.
Todd: 5.Encourage worshipers to donate time and money to the pro life movement.
Me: Word and Sacrament comes first.
Changed lives as result of folks coming to Christ, and you will have many people individually taking up causes like this.
But replacing the church’s mission of word and sacrament with being social activism, and you no longer have a church.
PERIOD.
Todd ~
What a gift and balm to your heart that gentleman’s loving words of encouragement must have been!
I live in the South now, but was born and raised in Torrance. Twenty years ago I was heavily involved with Rescue efforts at the mills all over Southern California, so your labor of love there on behalf of the children and in Jesus’ name is endearing to me. What you’re doing can be lonely work but the Lord is our comfort — and I’m so glad pro-lifers across the land are rallying behind you!
Off topic, but Todd, if you’ve never met Pastor Al Howard and his wife Judy of His Nesting Place down there in Long Beach, please do so! They are pro-life heroes in my book; a wonderful, godly couple who has been fighting faithfully for souls and the lives of the preborn (and their moms and dads!) for years and years.
http://www.hisnestingplace.org/aboutus.html#anchor_1
Thank you, Jill, for the coverage of Todd’s work. God bless you.
And God bless you and your team, Todd!
Dear Punisher
What the heck are you talking about. Your read what is not written. I dont think the church should toss out the gospel and center its life around the pro life movement. Where do you come up with this stuff. We dont have a problem with that anyway nor am I saying that is the way it should be.
I am a street preacher first and foremost and I preach Christ and Christ Crucified. I speak to the conscious of men pleading with them to not reject Christ who paid for their sins.
Nobody here thinks that the church should toss out the gospel for activism and for you to even suggest that is what we are saying is a bit silly.
The Problem with the church is that they are doing almost nothing and do not even want to talk about abortion.
The Church is far from active let alone getting involved in activism.
Here is the truth. The Christian life is about being obedient to Christ. What ever he calls you to do than you should do it. I am being Obedient by calling on the Church to be more pro active in the Pro Life Movement.
Todd: I dont think the church should toss out the gospel and center its life around the pro life movement.
Me: Well when you say every churches should do this or that in regards to issue of abortion, you are trying to mandate to them commands that are nowhere in the Bible about how the church should operate.
Todd: Where do you come up with this stuff. We dont have a problem with that anyway nor am I saying that is the way it should be.
Me: Well, when folks say the church is all about activism or the church’s main role is that, then it tells me differently.
Todd: I am a street preacher first and foremost and I preach Christ and Christ Crucified. I speak to the conscious of men pleading with them to not reject Christ who paid for their sins.
Me: Good.
But do you realize in demanding the church do what you say it needs to do on prolife issue, you are indeed falling into a form of legalism?
Yes, the church should be prolife when it comes to its stance when asked. It definitely should not promote abortion or right to it for convenience, etc. But it is another thing to require it to do the sets of commands you list.
Todd: Nobody here thinks that the church should toss out the gospel for activism and for you to even suggest that is what we are saying is a bit silly.
Me: When you make a mandate for the church to have to do such and such things, you add laws of your own to the gospel.
Todd: The Problem with the church is that they are doing almost nothing and do not even want to talk about abortion.
Me: You validated my point there. You don’t know that. You don’t know how many folks as a result of the churches teaching on the law and gospel, grace and mercy, atonement and forgiveness, love and obedience, etc., go out and take stands on issues to make a difference?
Just because the church does not go out and make a name for itself saying abortion is wrong all the time does not mean it is doing nothing.
Todd: The Church is far from active let alone getting involved in activism.
Me: The church’s purpose is to preach law to show the bad news, then the gospel as good news, administer the sacraments.
You might as well level the same complaints against Christ and the apostles.
Infanticide even birth was common practice among Greeks and Romans, and slavery abounded back then. That’s among many other social justices, and where do we see Christ and His apostles telling every Christian they need to take up such social causes against those ills?
They did NOT.
Yes there are principles we can draw from that guide us to fight for causes we believe in. But it is NOT to be binding on the conscience of each and every Christian which cause or social ill they need to combat.
Todd: Here is the truth. The Christian life is about being obedient to Christ. What ever he calls you to do than you should do it. I am being Obedient by calling on the Church to be more pro active in the Pro Life Movement.
Me: It’s the way you do it and the lists of demands you say ALL CHURCHES need to do.
That’s not obedience to Christ. That’s make up rules and laws on how churches should operate, when there is no such commands for how church bodies need to operate from either Christ and His apostles.
I love you guys, thank you for all of your kind words.
Ex-Gop think you guys exalt me sometimes and I know that is not true. I am a dork really, I am a sinner and spent most of my life messing things up not making things better. It was not until I gave up and just try to do what Christ asks of me. Then things turned around. I hope someday to share my testimony with you all.
It is amazing what happens when you just do what your boss says. I take no credit, I am just happy to see the Lord work and for him to use me in some small part is very cool. Most Christians believe but see very little. I am happy to believe and see much.
God is Good and I know he puts his desires in our hearts for his pleasure. If God has put a desire in your hear to serve him and it lines up with his word than by all means do it and see Gods hand move in your life.
Believe me its not about knowledge or understanding, its not about years of study. Its about being obedient. {years of study are nice and I thank God for them.}
Brother Punisher
I Speak for my town and I speak about the Church here in my town. Your theology is good but the Church can not hide behind its theology. The Bible represents not only the words of Christ but that of God also and God has Punished many a people for the sacrifice of its young. The Bible does not stand silent on injustice. I am not making new law for the church but saying it is not standing up against this evil that has infiltrated our church. Your theology be it well thought out is not a shield against accountability to God.
You do know that most Churches do not teach anything on abortion. You know that very Godly churches have turned pro choice. You know that some godly people now believe its ok to have an abortion if you want to.
I love theology but never let that stand in the way of Gods will. The pharisees did a lot of that.
Brother Punisher
You said something that very few believers know.
Me: The church’s purpose is to preach law to show the bad news, then the gospel as good news, administer the sacraments.
Are you a Priest or a Pastor?
That is what surprised me about you, if you understand how and why the law was created than how can you use your keen sense of theology to excuse the churches performance here in Ventura or in America. Do you feel that we have lived up to Gods expectation in combating Abortion?
Ex-Gop asked me what I thought the church should be doing. That was my answer but really if the church was fighting the good fight than this would not be an issue.
Punisher,
You misinterpreted what I said and went way out into left field.
When I wrote that God wants us to be activists, in your mind you thought “political activists”. But I defined activism this way:
“THE TRUE CHURCH IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT ACTIVISM. THE WORLD IS LOST, DYING AND GOING TO HELL. GOD WANTS HIS CHURCH TO ACTIVELY CALL THE WORLD AND THE APOSTATE CHURCH TO REPENT. WE’RE SUPPOSED TO BE SALT AND LIGHT, EXPOSING THE DARKNESS, TURNING THE WORLD UPSIDE DOWN, LIKE THE BOOK OF ACTS!”
I’m talking about Kingdom Activism Punisher. John the Baptist was an activist. When Jesus sent forth the 70 disciples to heal the sick, cast out demons and preach the Kingdom of God, they were activists.
“Not one time did Christ command us to be activists crusading against social wrongs of society (yes, there are principles in the Bible that lead us to take stand on issues, but nowhere is it mandated for each and every believer and church congregation).”
This is utter folly Punisher. God said, “Thou shall not kill.” Every Pastor and every believer in every congregation should condemn abortion in the strongest possible terms. Not all are called to picket churches or abortion clinics. But you refuse to acknowledge that when God’s pulpits are silent about abortion and other social ills, it opens the door for the enemy to infiltrate our society with all his perverted filth and wickedness.
If a Pastor isn’t preaching against abortion regularly, he’s not fulfilling his calling, he is doing his congregation and our country a disservice, and he deserves to be picketed until he repents.
Brother Ed.
I agree with you 100%
I remember a time when I was studying the Word of God for 4 or 5 hours a day and than one day while ready the word the Lord said, “How much do you have to know before I can use you” At that point I hit the streets and I learned a very important fact, that knowledge is not as important as obedience.
I believe in gaining knowledge and the church must teach but the church must also be obedient. It is not either or its both.
Amen Brother Todd,
God led Mike Bickle to establish a 24/7 prayer center after the pattern of the Tabernacle of David in 1999. During their 10 year anniversary, He led them to combine 24/7 prayer with 24/7 works of justice. A few short weeks later, God showed up in one of the Bible School classes and He’s been showing up ever since, healing the sick, saving the lost and healing the brokenhearted.
Pray, study His Word and obey, it sounds so simple, doesn’t it!
Gotta go to work, God bless!
EGV,
I’ll try to get back to you when I can; illness, and a correspondence of far greater urgency, are taking my attention at the moment.
EX GOP voter, some of here, including myself, don’t even go to church.
EX GOP voter, some of us here, including myself, don’t even go to church.
Todd:
Sorry, I kind of lost track of this thread.
Do you have my number?
I’ll give you a call.
Keep on fighting the good fight. I know abortion breaks the heart of God and I know He wants us to “face this giant in the land”. How many supported David when he went up against Goliath?
Out of 600,000 Israelites only Joshua and Caleb had enough faith to go take what God said was already theirs.
It is up to us, the church, the Body of Christ, to end legalized abortion. May won’t, some will, and these obedient ones will bring glory to God.
Sorry Phil I dont have your number. call me
Since Jill began sharing Todd’s witness, I’ve been reminded of this teaching from Leviticus 20 (that part begins at 4:45) which is, IMO, the most clear Scripture on abortion and what God expects from His people. There are too many hiding their eyes. I’ve gotten the “I can’t be political…God’s laid this on your heart” speech from my own pastor when I spoke to him about 40DaysforLife. I wholeheartedly support you, Todd, and pray for your safety and effectiveness. I would suggest that any Christians who balk at this may need the reminder that we are not to be conformed to this world; our citizenship is in heaven. If we’re too comfortable here, that’s a bad indicator.
Todd – looks like you and another got derailed off on your demands – a bit like a hostage situation, and I agree with much of what your debater said. What I find odd is in your comment back to me, you said that protesting isn’t your churches calling. But you seem to be not too concerned with what somebody’s calling is, as long as it crosses the threshold of what you deem acceptable. I mean, would Billy Graham pass your test? I’ve seen him speak a few times, and I haven’t seen him talk in an auditorium full of people about abortion.
You asked questions of me though – so here I go:
1. Have you watched the abortion video? “The” abortion video? Which one – the one posted by you that one day? No. (my girls were in the room) I’ve watched others though.
2. Is your church pro Choice? No – we’re a Biblical church and the Bible is clear that abortion is wrong
3. Is your church involved in any type of pro life movement? There are individuals, yes. There are smaller groups within the church, yes. As a church though, the sermons are less social ills focused and more outreach as we have a lot of younger and non-Christians. Furthermore, the whole focus of our church is outreach through various means, including the actual service – and diving in deeper in small group structure – so in regards to your “demand” on a comprehensive sermon on abortion – it wouldn’t fit into what our church, or a lot of churches aren’t about. It’s not that the church isn’t pro-life – it just is that the outreach of the church (the calling) isn’t to do those types of sermons.
4.Who do you think needs more defending the Church or aborted kids? I think both need a lot of defense quite frankly.
5.Do you give money to the pro life movement? What would you deem as an acceptable donation? Do you have a list of approved places?
Lastly – I wasn’t pleased when you were squirted with whatever in the face. I buried my head in my hands and thought “what a bunch of idiots”. You have a bunch of self-proclaimed “Christians” in the public eye acting like five-year olds. “What kind of Christian are you”. “Call the cops”. “Let’s sue”. And squirting you with water, vinager, and whatever else. It was rather sad quite frankly – if my kids acted that way, they’d be spanked. To see fellow Christians acting like that, and then bringing the dispute into the public eye – not only is it anti-Biblical, but I think to me it proves that what is happening is not from God.
Sorry man – you asked questions – that’s my view.
Dear Ex-Gop.
I dont understand you at all. Its like there is a dieing man on the side of the road and your saying that the church is not called to help him. Really the Church is not active in this issue. If they were abortion would not be legal. I pray your name will soon change to Ex-Stoneheart. We are praying for you. Please keep praying for me.
I rented a video about the Underground Railroad. I knew a little about it, but not much. Todd, keep doing what you are doing. If we had had more “Todd”s in the 1800s (that were abolitionists), who knows if Slavery would have been abolished sooner?
I don’t know why some of these pastors are so afraid to speak up about abortion. Perhaps they’d be able to help a vulnerable young woman choose life?
A good way to help would also to be to sort of adopt an unwed mother who is in need of help and raise funds to help her with car repairs or doctors appointments or whatever she needs help with to continue her pregnancy. A good fundraiser is the Baby Bottle fundraiser where you have a giant sized baby bottle to fill with donations.
Todd – my personal relationship with the Lord is doing just fine. If you want to pray for me, pray for my growing family (kid 3 on the way).
You and I simply aren’t going to see eye to eye on this – and based on the reaction you are getting from Christians in the mainstream (outside of this board), my guess is that some nights you contemplate if you are really doing something right (because of all the persecution), or really doing something wrong (because there’s a lot of Christian leaders and those on other boards – I’ve read in your newspaper) who think that what you are doing is just plain wrong.
I’ve stated my piece – and I think there’s no middle ground we’re going to come to.
Whether you are a Christian who thinks what Todd is doing is right or whether you are a Christian who believes what Todd is doing is wrong. . .
Either position, Todd is bringing much needed attention to the issue of abortion and the killing of innocent lives.
EGV wrote:
Shock comment – I’m not saying that shocking is bad – PETA uses it – Todd uses it – Phelps uses it. I’m not saying, nor did I say it was bad – I said both use it. So when you say “had you stopped there” – well, the next two points are really not debatable (that they both think they have a calling, and they both use shock value tactics).
Oh, come now! This statement of yours could be placed in the dictionary as an illustrative example of the word “disingenuous”. Your whole *point* in contrasting Todd with Fred Phelps was to damn Todd by association–since you find Fred Phelps to be despicable. (Now, if you were just getting delusional and spacey on us, and simply naming irrelevant, non-sequitur similarities within your visible environment, for no apparent reason–“Hey, those two clouds both look like bunnies! Hey, that ice cream cone is roughly the same colour as that fellow’s jacket! But anyway, what were we talking about?”–then please let me know, and I’ll stand corrected.) This “Hey, I didn’t say it was BAD!” nonsense is just that: face-saving nonsense, and poor-quality face-saving nonsense, at that.
At other Christians – again, you are saying that I’m giving that a value statement as right or wrong. I’m just saying they both do that. Do you not agree?
I do not disagree in the least. I’m merely calling you on your *reason* for this bit of seemingly irrelevant persiflage.
By the way: any progress on explaining your “in the face” comment?
Both love drama and conflict – Okay, I’ll admit that I don’t know their hearts in regards to what they love.
Ah. You do realize that you’ve just left that claim of yours in ruins, then?
But both go into the public spotlight – videotape their “mission” – send the videotapes to others to post (or post them themselves), go to other newspaper/blogs to “defend” themselves.
I see. So you think they’d be disappointed if their mission were fulfilled, and abortion were abolished in law and in practice? They wouldn’t have a chance to indulge in their “loves”–drama, and conflict? Unadulterated balderdash. Have some sense.
So maybe they don’t love drama and conflict in their heart – I made a statement based on what I’ve seen.
Well… let me try that, to show you what I mean. I, based on what you’ve written (and declined to write), make the statement that “EGV is an abortion-tolerant person who loves hurting, infuriating and insulting people with whom he disagrees.” I can’t read your heart–that’s true–but you’ve used disparaging, mocking, brusque language with Todd (calling him “arrogant”, “prideful”, saying that he’s motivated by a “love of drama and conflict” rather than–say–his stated goal of waking up an abortion-apathetic Church and getting more Christians to work to stop the killing!) and with many others… and you keep coming back to do more of the same, and all against pro-lifers. (Seriously: with how many non-pro-lifers have you ever argued, on this blog, total?) Q.E.D.
It is nice though that we have a nice new video every once in a while, complete with background music. Oh yes though, “Not a scrap of evidence…”
Correct–not a scrap of evidence that he “loves drama and conflict”. Plenty of evidence that he wants his message to get out, far and wide; NO evidence (unless you count your own fervent opinions as evidence?) of base motives such as you suggest. You’re seriously going around the bend on this one, EGV… or else you’ve grown so angry and heedless that you’ve ceased caring whether your accusations and insinuations are true, or not; you’re letting your cynicism pick your “probable explanations” while crowding out any explanations that are more charitable or reasonable. If you seriously think that the explanation “Todd does this because he loves being in the spotlight, and he loves to pick fights” is the only possible one–or even anywhere close to a reasonable one (based on what he’s written about himself)–then I seriously don’t know what to tell you. You believe what you want to believe, independent of any evidence to the contrary.
For somebody quite mad at me, I don’t really think you made much of a point in that one on the differences. I mean, for you to say I should have stopped at the beginning, it seems like I hit just about the rest of the list.
(*sigh*) You’re welcome to go on thinking that, regardless of probability, charity, and sane reason. I’ll let the reader judge between us on that point, I think, from now on.
Paladin good sir – how have the protests gone in your neighborhood and church?
Are you trying to add amnesia to your list of psychological foibles? See here, at March 30, 2010 12:40 PM, for my previous answer to that very same question of yours.
“This is utter folly Punisher. God said, “Thou shall not kill.” Every Pastor and every believer in every congregation should condemn abortion in the strongest possible terms. Not all are called to picket churches or abortion clinics. But you refuse to acknowledge that when God’s pulpits are silent about abortion and other social ills, it opens the door for the enemy to infiltrate our society with all his perverted filth and wickedness.”
Then you better condemn Christ and the apostles then. Or do you want to make believe history and deny abortions and other forms of infanticides took place in apostolic times, too?
No mention of them in the gospels or in the epistles.
Surely, they were social ills you would condemn. And so would I.
Yet, they did not put that as tops on list of the church’s mission.
By your logic, since Christ and the apostles did not write on those things, that must mean they were abetting the social ills.
You are being wrong-headed there.
You try to backtrack abit by saying it says in God’s word thou shall not kill. Sorry, but is that the best you got? Those churches that you attacked themselves preach that, so using that argument, then they are indeed preaching against abortion!
But if that’s all you got, then where’s the beef?
That hardly says the church has to take on the role of social activism. It simply says in God’s word against murder. Which if you trust God’s word, you would know that it is a double edged sword that can cut through hearts and change people.
You try to claim kingdom activism. But come on and let’s get real- you tie it to social activism by condemning churches if they don’t preach sermons on abortions and other social ills and do enough in your eyes.
Which by such logic, you would also would have to condemn Christ and the apostles. Using your logic, you would also have to say Christ and the apostles were abetting these evils that existed then.
No, it’s your logic that’s folly.
If churches carry out the mission they are supposed to- preach the word and administer the sacraments and put all those first, for Christ, instead of focusing on these activisms you so demand, then guess what? Real change WILL TAKE PLACE.
Those truly saved will turn from their sins. Their worldviews will change as well.
As long as we drag down churches for not doing enough on issue of abortion and other social ills instead of putting our real mission first, we will meet the same failures generation after generation.
Take a lesson from the first few generations of Christians, and how change came, be it end of persecution, be it putting end to barbaric practices of infanticides, gladiator fights, etc.
Change comes first because people’s hearts are changed by the word, that they seek Christ.
Yes, we can and should take up causes like prolife as led by the Lord to help affect changes. But don’t condemn other Christians who might be called to other missions, works, etc.
Paladin:
“…but you’ve used disparaging, mocking, brusque language with Todd (calling him “arrogant”, “prideful”, saying that he’s motivated by a “love of drama and conflict” rather than–say–his stated goal of waking up an abortion-apathetic Church and getting more Christians to work to stop the killing!) and with many others… and you keep coming back to do more of the same, and all against pro-lifers. (Seriously: with how many non-pro-lifers have you ever argued, on this blog, total?) Q.E.D.”
You know, you are right. I stumbled onto this blog because I was interested in the health care debate – and have been interested in Christian/political type organizations – see who they follow first – Christ or their cause. Obviously, that’s not something anyone can fully put their finger on – but it interests me to see Christian organizations that are fully right, fully left, and if they seem to put their personal causes above the cause of Christ.
I’ve always considered myself pro-life – but am finding out that maybe the tent is much smaller than I thought. Nope, I don’t go out and protest. Yes, I pray. But it sounds like unless I’m radical, I’m…well, I’ve been called a lot of things on this board – but I don’t think I’m pro-life enough I guess (though kid number three is on the way and doing fine – I guess though I don’t hammer on others enough!).
But you are 100% on – I’ve been mean to Todd and others on this board. I suppose we all would agree that bombing clinics is too radical of a solution – but not doing anything isn’t enough. I think the line in the middle is one place – others think it is somewhere else – and in arguing about the greater cause and where that line is – well, I think at times I am being decisive, at least with the type of folks this blog caters to.
This isn’t a packing up my toys and heading to my sandbox type message – but I think I am packing it up for the most part here. I like the news items and might post from time to time – but yeah, you are right – I think I’m beating my head against the wall and it isn’t so much fun anymore. I like the good debates and such – but I don’t think this is as much debate as common cause/rallying point – and I’m fine with that.
Be good – have enjoyed the conversations.
EX-GOP,
I enjoy your posts. If you want to discuss this some more, my email is Tron4JC@aol.com
“Are you a Priest or a Pastor?”
Neither.
“That is what surprised me about you, if you understand how and why the law was created than how can you use your keen sense of theology to excuse the churches performance here in Ventura or in America.”
First off, the law has three uses: 1) to restaint the world from sin, first off. Yes, we live in a fallen world, where the natural man is at heart an enemy of God and will not submit to His law. But even then in that state, God does write His law into the conscience. So even when folks are lost, there is some of God’s law left in man, that serves as conscience. But conscience cannot be only guide, because of the depraved nature of man’s heart that twists and darkens the minds and hearts and deadens the conscience against sin.
The second use of the law is to serve as a mirror to point folks to Christ. It shows them the bad news, that they are sinners, in need of a Saviour. It shows how depraved and wicked and how great their sin is.
The third use of the law is to serve as guide to what pleases God for the Christian.
Now, we no longer live under most parts of the law of God, which was divided into ceremonial, political, and moral aspects. Only the moral aspects, or the ones, repeated in the NT are to be rule of life for the Christian, and it is also called law of nature or law of Christ.
The problem here for you is that in trying to bind churches to do things you want them to do, you made up some of your own “laws” for churches to follow. And in condemning them, you risk without realizing it confounding law and gospel.
The church’s mission is always the same: word and sacrament to a lost world and as nurturing to the believer.
It is never commanded by Christ and the apostles to do social activism. It is not against their commands either to do so.
And indeed I do believe God does work in the hearts of many Christians to do His will to fight the evils of abortions.
But not all Christians are called to fight these battles. Many are called to evangelize. Or do missionary works.
I suggest you consider what Paul said about the human body and its body parts.
The reason why your actions are wrong is because you as a body part like hand is saying that the other body parts are worthless because they choose or feel led by God to serve Him of different roles.
The church is to preach the truth to Christians on all things.
If the church does that and fulfils its great commission duties, change can and does come.
Go back and look at the example of early Christians and how they overcame the Roman Empire and its barbaric practices.
It was not by legal battles or social activism either.
By the way, I am with exgop. I do believe the cop was wrong in what he did, and should lose his badge and face some jailtime himself.
“You know that very Godly churches have turned pro choice.”
I would not call them very godly then.
Not my place to go and picket them. Better just to warn and steer believers away from those churches.
A godly church would have done what the LCMS churhc did and throw out George Tiller from its congregation and denomination!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“Do you feel that we have lived up to Gods expectation in combating Abortion?”
No church is perfect.
God’s foremost expectation is the church fulfills its duties of the great commission to the lost world and nurturing the believers within.
To be sure abortion is evil in God’s eyes.
But much worse than abortion is damnation for people.
That’s why word and sacrament trumps social fights anyday.
Greater is God in us than he that is in the world.
If we truly believe God can change hearts through the gospel, then we need to trust Him at His word He will and preach that message to the world.
Remember one thing- if folks stop doing abortions, but they don’t know great their sin is to turn, they still get damnation.
It is a moot point given our culture of death, but the only way to change that is NOT social activism (though I do encourage it and do do it) but through gospel transforming hearts.
Social activism is useful when the gospel does the change first.
Without the gospel, all the social activism in the world is USELESS.
The Spiirt gives life, the flesh counts for NOTHING.
“Not my place to go and picket them. Better just to warn and steer believers away from those churches.”
But how will we know what churches to steer believers away from?
“Remember one thing- if folks stop doing abortions, but they don’t know great their sin is to turn, they still get damnation.”
But won’t these folks who stop doing abortions also no longer be leading many others down the road of damnation?
Couldn’t we substitute and reflect on: “If Nazis stop killing Jews, but they don’t know how great their sin is to turn, they will still get damnation.”
It is very hard if not impossible to rationalize with the irrational and I personally see abortionists as very irrational individuals. This doesn’t mean I shouldn’t keep praying for them and attempt to lead them to Christ. I just don’t think this has been enough all along.
Anyway, I think I may have to at this point agree to disagee with you Punisher regarding Todd’s protesting. I will definitely keep praying about it though.
God Bless You.
“But how will we know what churches to steer believers away from?”
The denoms are open about their stances on issues, morally or theologically. I can tell you which are liberal denoms, like ECLA and PCUSA, both of which long abandoned their Lutheran and Reformed heritages as denominations a long time ago, and have gone the way of immorality.
If we don’t know what individual churches teach, we can steer clear folks of bad churches by simply laying down the principles of what makes a church. And what makes a good church. A church that teaches the law to show us we need the gospel. A church that faithfullly administers the sacraments. A church that clings to historic Christian faith on the triune nature of God and so on.
If a church does not teach the word, believe everything is relative, compromises with ungodliness, and does not take doctrine seriously, run as far as you can away from it!
“Couldn’t we substitute and reflect on: “If Nazis stop killing Jews, but they don’t know how great their sin is to turn, they will still get damnation.”
That is true. And don’t forget by the way I am not opposed to social activism against abortion. I am against binding it on the conscience of every church and every person (don’t get me wrong- if churches preach it is ok to get abortion, extramarital affairs, forinications, etc., then that’s different).
But my point stands: only the gospel can transform the heart and character of the country we live in.
Only God can change hearts and minds of folks. If we believe God is that powerful to do so and God’s word is able to pierce the hearts, then we need to keep faithfully speaking His word to the lost.
That is what brings real changes.
Surely, Christ and His apostles knew about the abortions and the infanticides that took place during the Greco-Roman times. Yet, they chose to focus on God’s word and the transformation it brings for those who believe.
“I Speak for my town and I speak about the Church here in my town. Your theology is good but the Church can not hide behind its theology.”
Not hide behind the theology but stand on it as truth.
Either believe it as truth or discard it. If it is truth as I stated, then don’t compromise it just to support a cause. If the theology is correct, then God will hold folks accountable for compromising the truth to get support for a cause, any cause, no matter how noble and no matter how godly the cause.
How many times did Paul warned against false teachers who won’t endure sound doctrine? No exception clause that those teachers did so to help a good cause.
“The Bible represents not only the words of Christ but that of God also and God has Punished many a people for the sacrifice of its young.”
Christ IS God. Just not the Father nor Holy Spirit.
And my point stands: if churches are that bad to you if they don’t speak out against evils like abortion, then you need to be consistent and apply that to Christ and the apostles.
Abortion AND after birth infanticides were practiced in ABUNDANCE in their day, too.
Why the silence if their intent was for the church to put that as its mission?
Maybe, because they realized that the gospel comes first, and when the gospel does it work, by the Holy Spirit, change WILL COME in other areas.
If the churches do their job to preach LAW AND GOSPEL, then the (super)natural result would be more opposition to ungodly things like abortion.
“The Bible does not stand silent on injustice.”
While the Bible does not stand silent on injustice, it never stated the mission of the church body is to be a place for social activism for injustice. The times the Bible spoke of injustices it spoke in context of the nation of Israel when it was a theocracy, under old covenant with God.
Yes, those laws you spoke of are still binding on the Christian conscience, as part of the moral aspect of the Mosaic law of God.
But it is on the Christian conscience in terms of how they are themselves to act.
In regards to the law of the land, we are to do what is admonished by Christ and the apostles. Pray for the rulers. Where we can submit to governing authorities. And if we can change unjust laws, do our parts individually and with consciences clear before God.
Nowhere does it say we are to go and dictate to other Christians in other churches they have to do things our ways with rules we made up (that we believe will help our cause) to promote a cause, no matter how godly the cause is. It is adding law there. And it is unbiblical.
Don’t let a good cause be an excuse to be law unto yourself.
God works in different ways in different people.
Missionaries to other countries obviously are not picketing or fighting against abortion in this country, since they are away. Yet, it pleases God.
” I am not making new law for the church but saying it is not standing up against this evil that has infiltrated our church.”
It is new law if you are dictating to the churches that they have to do things your way, like support this or that prolife groups from church coffers.
Legalism is still unbiblical, no matter if you think it supports a good cause.
If the church is tolerating sin in its midst, that’s one thing.
But if it is merely not doing enough in your sight for prolife cause, then you are out of bounds to say it is not godly.
“Your theology be it well thought out is not a shield against accountability to God.”
It is not a shield against accountability to God but in fact IS ACCOUNTABILITY to God.
If anything, I feel folks here are using the ends justify the means approach, where they believe that if it helps their prolife cause, they can do so at the expense of doctrine or theology, and that’s plain wrong. It is wrong Scripturally. It is wrong with God.
Remember, compromising the truths of God’s word in any way, shape, or form, is wicked in God’s eyes.
“You do know that most Churches do not teach anything on abortion.”
How do you know that? And claiming they don’t money to prolife groups is not evidence. It’s flimsy argument.
“You know that very Godly churches have turned pro choice.”
Then they are not very godly, nor godly at all.
“You know that some godly people now believe its ok to have an abortion if you want to.”
And how can they be godly to believe that?
Or maybe they are, but I think that’s lowering the standard of what godly is. lol
“I love theology but never let that stand in the way of Gods will.”
And don’t let your zeal for the prolife cause no matter how noble it is (which it is) stand in the way of honoring God’s word. Theology simply means study of His word.
“The pharisees did a lot of that.”
The Pharisees made up rules and put burdens on others and dictate to others things never commanded by God and they also overturned some of God’s laws with their made-up traditions.
I feel that in trying to force churches to become what you want them to be, you are in serious danger of putting in commands not commanded by God and overturning what God has to say in His word about the church and its real mission.
EXGOP is right: Christ and His apostles would not have measured to some here since they failed to speak out against abortion, infanticides, pagan form of slavery, gladiators, etc., etc.
“I mean, we’re smarter right – we know their calling better than they know their calling.”
Exactly. It’s not our place to know what God’s calling is for the other person or other church, other than do not go against His law or do something immoral.
It is up to individual folks and churches to seek that out, by being transformed by renewing of their minds then they can seek and know His will.
EGV,
As far as I’m concerned, you’re always welcome to share whatever you please–your exasperation of me notwithstanding; I certainly didn’t want to chase you away. I do, however, reserve the equal right to criticize the things you say that are inflammatory and unfair, or logically flawed, or both. If you actually do wrong, then the right response is not to cradle your wounded dignity and throw “snark and sarcasm” as a cover for your retreat (trust me, I’m speaking from personal experience–I’ve been there, done that); the right response is a simple, un-embellished apology: “yes, I was wrong to accuse Todd of arrogance, and of doing all this merely to get an audience and satisfy his urge to pick fights… and I’m sorry.” It amazes me when people throw baseless accusations at someone, and then (instead of apologizing for *that*) “apologize” for some sarcastically exaggerated phantasm: “Sorry I didn’t slam people more!”, “Sorry I didn’t heal the world with one wave of my hand!”, etc.
You wrote:
I’ve always considered myself pro-life – but am finding out that maybe the tent is much smaller than I thought. Nope, I don’t go out and protest.
EGV, I must have typed this at least 5 times, already, in various wordings and intensities:
WHO SAYS THAT YOU’RE PERSONALLY OBLIGED TO GO PROTEST?
Show me, even once, where Todd (or anyone, like me, who agrees with his position) has said that EVERYONE is obliged to go and protest at Churches. Put up, or apologize for the baseless accusation.
Some, like Todd, are called to protest and wake up Christians who are asleep on the abortion issue. Many are called to BE AWAKENED. But can you seriously not see that, in his wishes for greater activism, we need BOTH protesters AND those who are AWAKENED? If everyone protested at Churches (which Todd never advocated, despite your flambuoyant claims), then there would be no need of the protests in the first place, anyway; why try to awaken someone who’s already awake and zealous to wake others?
Yes, I pray. But it sounds like unless I’m radical, I’m…well, I’ve been called a lot of things on this board – but I don’t think I’m pro-life enough I guess (though kid number three is on the way and doing fine – I guess though I don’t hammer on others enough!).
Let’s not get maudlin, here. You know, full well, the wrong and wild accusations you’ve levelled against Todd, and against those of like mind. Man up, and apologize for them (without throwing out snark-ridden red herrings), and I guarantee that I, at least, will see you with new eyes full of renewed respect.
Here’s a summary:
1) Not everyone is called to do what Todd does, but some people are. For you to claim that Todd is condemning “all who DON’T protest at Churches” is puerile.
2) For you to claim that Todd “does what he does for vainglory and love of combat” is not only baseless, but insulting; with one snarky wave, you simultaneously dismiss any possibility that Todd is motivated by true grief at the murder of children (and the apathy of the world that watches it), and you accuse him of taking advantage of mass-murder to “take the stake and trumpet himself”. It’s a playground taunt.
3) All are called to pray. Some are called to specific types of action backed up by that prayer. In a war, some are on the front lines, some are medics, some are supply-line people, some are strategic planners, some are cooks, etc. For a cook to fail to pick up a rifle and shoot the enemy (i.e. the devil and his angels) is no fault; but for him to sneer at an infantryman who’s crying out for his sleeping fellows to pick up their rifles and fight the raging enemy is insane; “What, does he expect everyone, including me, to pick up his particular type of rifle and start shooting? I guess I’m not good enough for him!” Be a cook, if God calls you to it. But let the infantry be infantry (or, more accurately, let the cavalry be the cavalry).
Pardon… typo in the 2nd-to-last paragraph, above:
taking advantage of mass-murder to “take the STAGE and trumpet himself”
Paladin – you are certainly not chasing me away from the board – don’t fret about that. I’m going to email Punisher and continue conversations offline – if you’d like to contact me, email Punisher as well and he can pass on your email (or mods, feel free to send my email to Paladin – I do not want to post it on an open board).
To wrap this up though, briefly:
– I’m not saying Todd is condemning those who don’t protest at churches – I’m saying that in general, I don’t protest and I feel that the general attitude on this board is that sitting and praying isn’t good enough – that monetary donations and picketing and such are required to be “real pro-life”. Might just be my perception.
– I suppose I felt this seemed to smell of somebody liking drama and wanting publicity when the request was made to the board for digital video cameras.
– My issue has never been, nor never will be the cause. I also do not believe all churches and those who work in them are blameless. My issue has been, since that start, the thought that a person is going to another church body (not even their own), and saying what the church should or shouldn’t do in regards to their dollars and time. The last thing we need is 50 special interest groups on the sidewalks to church yelling about what things should or shouldn’t be funded, and where people should spend their time. If it is a christian church, and a person truly believes that they are following God’s teachings, then to say that the calling God has given them is wrong – well, that’s just unforgivable.
That will forever be my issue. If a person is feeding folks at a soup kitchen, don’t barge in and tell them to go serve at a pregnancy center. Churches are called to different things – and for a person who’s not even a member of a church to say what a church should or shouldn’t be called to do is to say that your own judgment is better or more important than God Himself.
That has been my beef – I’ve given two ways to contact me – but again, I do not want to continue to cause unwelcome division – so I’m out.
I pray that all serve God first and foremost, and then things like abortion will wither away and be a thing of the past!
EGV:
Why do you criticize Todd for doing something against abortion but then say that Republicans don’t do anything?
It’s like you just like to be contrarian to those that really want to eliminate abortion.
What’s going on in your heart?